#when really most people in fandom and out of fandom are against censorship but i know the tags will appeciate it so

[bigskydreaming]

Imagine if you were a gay or bi man who tried a certain firefighter show because of all the attention it was getting for one of its mains having a later in life bi awakening.....and between seasons you ventured into its fandom in search of material to tide you over til the next one. And you're greeted by a deluge of posts and fics that are just cheerfully homophobic towards one half of the newly out bi character's canon relationship on the basis of 'well he's not the RIGHT gay guy' and pushing the idea that actually its fine to cheat on him because Reasons and he's sexually predacious based on......behind the scenes implications people have divined like they're reading fucking tea leaves.

But don't get it twisted....this fandom, like all fandoms, really cares about representation!

Sorry not sorry, but we really need to kill this idea that fandoms are welcoming and inviting and inherently progressive when they're frequently insular and reductive as fuck. Every single fandom I've been in has had major trends of people doubling down on their own headcanons and fanon interpretations of the characters and willfully enacting trends aimed at running off people who like the 'wrong' characters (usually characters marginalized along one or multiple axes), like the characters in the 'wrong ways' or other bullshit.

Scott is a Bad Friend fics overtaking Teen Wolf fandom was not incidental, it was a FEATURE of the fandom, because the vast majority of that fandom did not want to share its space with anyone who had the nerve to like its main character. Survivors complaining about or criticizing the prevalance of rape fics in a certain fandom has in my experience always led to a reactionary UPTICK in those fics, with gems like 'this character can, will, must be raped' in the tags making it crystal clear that some of these fics exist because how fucking DARE anyone try and push forth a narrative not agreed upon by Fandom Main.

I could cite examples for so many other fandoms, with the commonalities always being that vast majorities in these fandoms are explicitly reacting defensively to being asked to be more mindful of fandom trends revolving around or exacerbating racism, homophobia, transphobia, rape or abuse apologia, ableism, etc....

With the most prolific fucking rallying cry across countless fandoms being "No the fuck we will NOT be doing that," because lolololol.....

Fandom is an inherently progressive space, didn't you hear?

[coulsonlives]

I'm thinking about fanpol peeps, and how they obviously have super insecure and unstable moral compasses. They might wanna feel like they're doing good things, and seeing the world the 'right' way, and they're desperate to do good. But they don't have the ability to view and interpret things critically on their own, without a ton of external influence, because they never learned how.

This makes them super impressionable! Because they can't examine their views and moral compass on their own, they end up grafting the closest things they think are a good demonstration of morality onto themselves, which is super dangerous because again, they can't tell what is 'appropriate' vs 'inappropriate' to be against, or when they're going too far. Adult/child relationships, incest, etc are the most 'obviously bad' things someone can do in real life, because we all know child abuse and the likes are bad, so that's what fanpols latch onto first. But since they can't think critically about how far to go with this, they think it makes them a better person to crusade against ppl who write things like that, regardless of context. It shows they don't really know how to contextualize or find nuance in things.

They can't think, oh well, it's just fiction. They don't know how to look at the hard facts and think, oh well, so what if a few serial killers said they read a certain book, or played a video game, it doesn't mean those books and games should be banned, or that everyone who consumes that material is a bad person/possible killer. No, they think it all should go. It's like calling everyone who reads lolita a 'pedo' or everyone who reads mein kampf a 'nazi' because they don't have the nuance to understand people are curious, or that people want to be uncomfortable (that's the point of horror movies and novels tbh, am I a bad person for enjoying thomas harris' red dragon??), and that people can, actually, read the wildest things and not get ideologically influenced by it

Once you add on the 'la la, i'm plugging my ears and not listening to you degenerates' thing that fanpols use to shut out any productive conversation (which is also a cult mentality: assuming anyone who isn't them is the bad guy, so those opinions are insta-moot), it just spirals out of control. They keep grafting on 'bad things to be against' to their list, with no willingness to reflect or examine just how bad things have become for them, or how far down the slope they're slipping, and that's how you end up w people who will suibait someone if they even headcanon a character as hetero or say they like whump/gore fics

Saying that, I gotta wonder how many fanpols must be projecting. If they really think people can be influenced that easily by consuming or making 'bad' content.. Do they think that about themselves? Do they think people are this impressionable because that's what they see in themselves? If so.. that should be a glaring red flag that they don't have healthy media consumption habits, and it's a problem with them, not everyone else.

[sarasade]

One of the most generally useful things to come out of Hbomberguy's plagiarism video and Todd in the Shadows' similar video on misinformation is how they bring transparency to the internet phenomenon of "I made up a guy to get mad at".

Seriously, I've seen people make up a lot of stupid shit on the internet over the years and it's often just a manipulative attempt to paint a group of marginalized people in a bad light.

That's the TL;DR version of this post. 

ANYWAY here is the long version

Those videos are mostly about James Somerton's plagiarism of other queer people's work. However I'd like to talk about that 20-30% of Somerton's original writing- and oh boy. It's mostly about complaining about White Straight Women and misgendering well-known trans creators such as Rebecca Sugar and calling Becky Albertalli a straight woman while it's pretty common knowledge that she was forced to out herself as bi because she received so much harassment over "being a cishet woman who appropriates LGBT+ stories".

One thing that irks me especially is how in his Killing Stalking and Gay Shipping videos Somerton brings up how straight women/ teen girl shippers exploit gay men for their personal sexual fantasies. This gets brought up several times in his videos.

Being all up and arms about Somerton being a "White Cis Gay Who Hates Women and Queer People tm" is not that useful because the kind of rhetoric he's using is extremely common in fandom and LGBT+ spaces on Tumblr, TikTok and Twitter. We really don't need to bring Somerton's identity to this since he is in no way an unique example.

It's hypocritical to make this about an individual person when I've seen A TON of posts, tweets and videos where queer people talk about these Sinister Straight Women who are supposedly out there fetishizing and exploiting queer men. It's pretty clear to me that this is just an excuse to shit on women and queer people for having any sexual interests. At worst these comments are spreading misinformation about BL, a form of media that has been excessively studied by both Asian feminists and Asian queer women.

This all sounds really familiar and I think it's good that people are calling it out as what it is: misogyny and transphobia. I'd also point out the potentially racist motives behind being this hypervigilant about Asian media.

People can absolutely be misogynist regardless of gender or orientation. I really don't know why we need to create some kind of made up enemy to get mad at. I actually think it's almost sinister how "anti-fujoshi" people call Slash shippers and fujoshi misogynists or claim that they have internalised misogyny while being dismissive about women's interests and creative pursuits under Japanese obscenity laws, China's censorship, book bans in American schools and various other disadvances that are part of being a queer and/or female creator.

I think we shouldn't be naive about the bad faith actors who want to turn queer people against each other. For example Fujoshi.info mentions anti-gender (TERF, GC etc) movement using this kind of rhetoric as well.

Anyway if you want to read more:

- about the false info around BL fandom fujoshi.info

-There is the scholar Thomas Baudinette who studies gay media in Japan. Here is a podcast with him and the scholar Khursten Santos

-James Welker is a BL scholar as well. Here is a podcast interview about the new international BL article collection he edited.

-I've already talked about this Youtube channel by KrisPNatz and his great Killing Stalking video that actually engages with the themes of the manhwa

- There is also HR Coleman's thesis DO NOT FEED THE FETISHIZERS: BOYS LOVE FANS RESISTANCE AND CHALLENGE OF PERCEIVED REPUTATION where she interviews 36 BL fans and actually breaks down why fetishization has become such a huge talking point in the fandom discourse. Spoilers, it's mostly about young queer people and women being worried that they will get judged and pathologized for their interest in anything sexual.

-Great podcast about Danmei and censorship with Liang Ge

[pastryjay]

I know some OFMD fans have become more biased against Izzy content, Izzy fans, and Con himself due to two years of discourse, and I get it, but that is not an excuse for this. Some people have to be more careful/ respectful of the way they talk about Con O'Neill.

Context: he streamed a workshop about creative insults titled 'How To f*ck off with Con O'Neill'. This was explicitly stated to be for people 18+ only. At one point, he was seen briefly wearing only boxer shorts and a t-shirt in his own home. This was in a non-sexual context - he was just sitting down. Now, he's being called out for sexual harrassment and indecent exposure because of that.

Firstly, i'd like to say that anybody loudly offended by this 'incident' has made it clear that they didn't attend the workshop, and those who did attend are fine with it. The Venn diagram of people who wanted to attend that event and people who love Con's cheeky humour is a circle. Con knows his audience and his audience know him. You, random person who doesn't like Con much anyway, don't have to like it but it making you uncomfortable doesn't mean it is morally wrong.

It's important to note that Con O'Neill is open about being queer and proud about that. He is not shy about his sexuality or willing to censor his queerness e.g. he's not afraid to make suggestive (but not overly explicit) jokes or show his support for queer fanart. That is a good thing! It reeks of homophobia seeing him getting accused of being perverted just for existing as himself. It's not the first time either. In the past, OFMD fans have called him gross, a freak and creepy for sharing suggestive fanart to his Instagram.

It's wild to see all the focus on a cheeky, harmless moment when there are so, so many real issues in the world. Countless people are out there committing real sexual harrassment daily. Focusing on this queer man over nothing is dangerous. Accusing queer people of preying on those around them just by existing is literally right-wing rhetoric. Especially as there is a bigger push than ever from right-wing politicians to paint queer people as dangerous predators. Censorship, homophobia and puritanism is not welcome in the fandom for a show about queer joy.

Lastly, To the people mad about this: Why are you fine with anybody posting thirst traps online or people existing in swimwear in public, but you cry about 'not consenting' to seeing a queer man in boxer shorts and a shirt? Why are you upset about Con doing this, but love it when Rhys Darby posts shirtless photos to his Insta stories for fans? Why is it okay for most people to be comfortable in their sexuality/ their own body... but not Con?

I know the kind of people who need to see this probably won't take any of it on board, but it is really uncomfortable to see the way some people are talking. If many people like myself (I have been very critical of some Izzy fans and mostly avoid Izzy content) disagree with you, maybe you should re-think what you are saying.

[olderthannetfic]

https://www.tumblr.com/olderthannetfic/749333039047442432/httpsolderthannetfictumblrcompost74884185043?source=share

Sorry, long rant incoming.

Someone in the replies said it, but I think it needs to be said again where everyone can see it: I think a lot of the attitude that anon is somehow secretly pro-censorship because they think certain preferences are skeevy, and strenuously insisting that bad attitudes can NEVER be media's fault.... idk, maybe take it out of the context of debates about sexually explicit/pornographic media for a moment?

There are works of media that had pretty direct effects on activist and political movements, good and bad. Uncle Tom's Cabin inspired a lot of people to fight against slavery. The movie Birth of a Nation, which showed a history of the U.S. with the KKK as heroic, is considered by most historians to be a major contributor to the revival of the KKK in the 1920s. The Nazis used films, books, music, art, and so on in their propaganda, knowing it would help their ideas go down more easily. The Soviets did too. Every dictatorship did. Even democratic countries have done it as well, usually but not always in more subtle ways.

Do none of those count, because "oh, people who were going to be convinced by Birth of a Nation would be racist anyway"? "Good, non-racist people wouldn't be convinced by it"? I mean, the latter is true: there were plenty of people, especially black Americans but plenty of white allies too, who boycotted the film at the time. The NAACP led a boycott. But do you really think NO ONE was convinced? (What about people who previously didn't feel any way about it one way or the other? Were they just innately more evil, even if it might've just been that they weren't aware? Do supposedly progressive people in fandom realize how much this sounds like Christian original sin rhetoric...) And does it matter purely about media fully changing minds, or also how it galvanizes people who already think one way? If it gives them new talking points, new ways of thinking about it and convincing others? If it helps them believe their cause is more important and worth fighting for?

So why does this all suddenly change when we're talking about sex? Is porn really this special class of media where somehow all the rules about how we can both like things and also be critical of how media (fiction, news media, whatever) influences us - "be critical of the media you love," as a tote bag sold by Feminist Frequency said - just stop applying for some reason? Or maybe if something is bypassing your rational brain entirely and going directly for the pleasure centers, there's all the more reason to think critically about what it's saying? Propaganda is designed to bypass all that, too.

Also, if media really has NOTHING to do with it, that just wouldn't explain why it's disproportionately anime that feature these specific elements that seem to attract more people arguing for why it's wrong to be upset by rape or child exploitation in real life. I don't believe that everyone who watches slavery isekai or lolicon approves of those things irl - I think for the vast majority of people, it IS a fantasy and that's the point - but I have noticed that in places like the Anime News Network or Crunchyroll forums, the comments become a cesspool of creepy people arguing for why ages of consent should be lowered and mean feminists who don't like watching media with rape in it just need to get over themselves, in a way they just don't when you're talking about Attack on Titan or My Hero Academia or Shoujo Romance #4891 or whatever.

As another person in the notes said, abusers ARE opportunistic. They'll use something like Twilight as easily as they'll use the most uwu, soft, "non problematic" ship to argue for why they're allowed to abuse you. But I don't think that means we can't be critical (not calling for censorship, of course! but like, writing op-eds and stuff) of media that makes their arguments a little easier, maybe even directly makes their arguments for them.

You can believe both that everyone has the opportunity to read, watch, listen to, play what they want and make up their own minds about it, and that it's wrong for the government to ever decide what media is and isn't "acceptable," and also believe that media often is saying things that aren't apparent on the surface and that you should be critical of those messages, *especially* with the stuff you like.

The point is just that porn isn't like, fundamentally different from other fictional media in this way. (Or, hell, I would argue that fictional media isn't functionally different from other mass media in this way. If anything, fiction's politics are often more insidious in a way that makes it easier for them to reach people who might not otherwise be open to those messages in the form of, say, blatantly right-wing news media.)

It's particularly strange to me when people jump all over someone for expressing how something can be insidiously creepy in a more mundane way. The line people are upset about that used the word "unpack" was just making the point that even if we can agree lolicon isn't outright advocating pedophilia, even if we agree the point is that it's a fantasy and they're not like real children at all and that's what people like, it's still working within an idealization/fetishization of helplessness, innocence, and dependence, and that still has a lot that you can critique from a feminist perspective. It's still a thing that plays into some crappy societal ideas about who women are supposed to be, and is selling that to men as a romantic ideal. There's still a lot we can talk about there! And it's still totally fair for women to be wary of men where that seems to be all they're into - because for some (and I believe this was what anon was initially trying to say was their experience), it does impact how they treat real women. It doesn't have to be everyone for it to have an impact.

There's a lot of anime that presents women that way, even way outside of lolicon. A lot of it's anime I like! I'm still critical of that aspect of it. I still wish that particular part of it were different.

I still don't see how this makes me "pro censorship" unless I believe some kind of institution should mandate that that not be included. And whether that's the government, or the industry itself (people do kind of narrowly focus on "the government" in a way that would make a lot of industry-run censorship that was still very harmful, e.g. the Hollywood Hays Code, not "count"), or anyone, I very much disagree with that. Creators should be able to create what they want. A lot of what creators are doing with this is unconscious, is reflecting societal biases they learned but haven't thought deeply about.... which is precisely the point of critiquing how those show up in a work.

People love to talk about "secretly 'anti' attitudes" but at the end of the day, support or opposition to censorship is pretty straightforward. You believe someone should be stopped from making a particular kind of media, or you don't. If you don't, you're not pro-censorship, no matter how much you personally may not like that that media or a particular aspect of it exists. Most people who care about media have some media they wish didn't exist. It's about what they do about it that makes them pro or anti censorship. Talk to people who donate to or even work for the ACLU or other anti censorship groups; most of them don't like racist or sexist stuff, but they also don't believe it should be banned and that's the point.

Bringing it back to the discussion at hand, I think the point was just that you can't be blind to how power dynamics influence this stuff. I wouldn't even say specifically cishet men are at fault here, since some people who read this blog seem to think that anyone saying that is automatically talking about bioessentialism as opposed to like, societal stuff (don't ask me why, this has been explained on here enough times in enough different discourses over the years, I think). I'd just say anyone with power in that particular context. There's a reason why it's specifically mainstream media, aimed at groups in power, that tends to draw in creeps excusing the real thing... in a way that just similarly is not true of people in fanfiction fandom, who are usually a member of one or more oppressed categories, exploring that in their own marginal work. Fans of rape fanfiction just don't act the way that fans of slavery rape isekai do. It's because there is fundamentally a difference both when you're someone whom society tells you are entitled to everything you want in this particular arena, and also when a work is mainstream, broadening its reach, and speaking a particular message from the lens of people with economic and social power (who are making these mainstream works) and given approval by publishers/media studios/etc. in a way that is not the case with amateur work with tiny audiences. And, frankly, there's a difference between something that eroticizes rape from the point of view of the perpetrator vs. the victim.

Not a difference in terms of how legal it should be. Not a difference in whether every single person who watches it or likes it is bad. But a difference in terms of what it's saying, how it's saying that, and often the effects they have as a result. That, too, is true with every topic, not just sex.

I feel like a lot of people getting mad at these do fundamentally agree with this, but just have a weird blind spot when it's put in any sort of terminology that reminds them of certain bad arguments they've seen in fandom, uses any words that can be dismissed as "radfem" or "anti" or whatever, and so just refuse to engage with the actual meat of what is being said.

If you do actually believe though that it's wrong to EVER think media can have a negative effect on what people believe about irl issues, because there was always something "already there" that was going to "come out anyway" if it affects you that way (again, people: this is "original sin" rhetoric), and if you ever privately judge people for the media they like you're secretly pro-censorship. You do have to recognzie that both you personally come up short and also most peopel doing real concrete real world things to fight censorship would also come up short!

I think sometimes of an editorial that said "if you love Return of the Jedi but hated the Ewoks you understand feminist criticism" in terms of how you can be bothered by the sexism of a piece of media in a way you'd be bothered by any one individual element of it, and still overall like the whole. And also, you can be offended by something, even wish it didn't exist (don't we as nerds all have entries in some franchise we like or another that we wish didn't exist for fannish reasons?), without believing that it should be officially made to stop existing or have never existed in the first place. That last part does actaully matter as like, its own thing. It is in fact separable from just being able to have personal judgey feelings about media and about the people who liked it.

And opposing it does not mean in any way that we have to just stop thinking critically about the media we love, or that we have to act like media can never have any influence on people. We on the left tend to talk about sexism, racism, homophoia and so on as being influenced by culture and society. Well, guess what is part of society and culture? Fictional (and other kinds of) media. That's part of that societal programming we get. It's why you'll see some of it even from people whose parents very much tried to resist teaching them certain things, because they get it from media anyway. I was raised by strenuously feminist parents: it was the media that taught me what gender roles were and how I was expected to adhere to them.

--

Look, I realize it's a bit rich of me to say this, but people are not going to engage with your actual points if you cannot be more succinct.

[nikethestatue]

I am seriously so shocked and appalled at the pedophilia shipping situation. I don’t even want to say the name of the ship it’s so gross. Just when I thought the ACOTAR fandom couldn’t reach new lows. The most awful thing is people are DEFENDING it ??? Saying it’s just a fictional ship, you can’t censor writers… what in the donald trump is that logic. It’s not censorship. It’s people rightly standing up against something wrong and putting pressure, rightly, to get them to change their behavior. This is a space (mostly) for young-youngish women. We don’t want to see that stuff. I’m pretty upset because two big ACOTAR blogs who I love (they are eluciens but I ignore that because I like their feysand fanfics) are defending it. Just very disheartening all around.

Yeah, every now and again, I am still surprised.

Firstly, it's all performative. The same people who didn't like the backlash against Elain x Tamlin, turned around and decided to one up themselves and say, okey, how about Tamlin x Nyx now?

Even the most deranged ones in this fandom --and there are some--don't actually ship Tamlin and Nyx. It's all for show.

However, when other idiots start defending them, that's when it gets tricky. Because why? They yell censorship! The laws and protections around pedophilia always existed. I don't care how much you vow to 'age up' Nyx, canonically, he is a baby, an infant. And that's how he will remain. No matter how much you try to weasel out of it, you are shipping an infant with a grown man, and no 'freedom of speech' and all other platitudes don't excuse you. 'Morals don't apply to ships!' they scream. No, they do. Because then why don't we have Gwyn and the Hybern Captain Week? Gwyn and her Reverse Harem of Hybern Soldiers Taking Turns and Teaching Her Week? Lucien and Ianthe Week?

Notice how there is never an Amarantha and Tamlin Week? Much more foundation for THAT week than a Nyx x Tamlin Week.

Oh wait, hold on--you don't want Timmy to be dommed by Amarantha and taken against his will? Or you think it's gross that she was (or might have been) lusting over him when he was a kid?

Oh, not so eager anymore?

I thought that morals don't apply to ships?

Ehhhh. What is there to say, really? Some people are fucked up and that's how they operate in this world.

[coolingrosa]

(Ok i typed more than i meant to feel free to not read if you’d so prefer🩵)

while what you say about the proshipping label is something i somewhat agree with (as in realizing how many people identify the term with certain meaning) i do wish to point out that calling it ‘old fandom usage’ isn’t really accurate…

obviously it’s no one else’s buisness how you choose to define it and this isn’t a hate ask or anything🥰 /genuine

i’m also against comship, (or proship whichever you wish to call) although comshipping would be the correct term for dark ships

it’s also just a little weird to see it said that “no one uses that” when a lot of people do. truly a lot. they simply do not shout it as loudly from what i observe, that section of people are just quieter and keep to themselves more, because of the amount of new fandom people who bulldoze them from what i understand. those people are loudest, and this switch in definitions didn’t happen until the past few years…these people who have used that label for years but suddenly are expected to not because of misinfo that was spread….its a very interesting( and probably unfortunate )phenomenon in fandom spaces!

again you can ignore this i’m sorry if this comes off as annoying, i just am an old lady in fandom spaces and i see a lot of misinfo around fandom talk..

by its definition proshipping means “people can do what they want and it’s my responsibility to block or move on” , it’s moreso a freedom of speech thing, comshipping is when you ship problematic things (although by definition the problematic things are probably defined by the user.)

i don’t like dark ship one bit, but i understand that theres serious repercussions when it comes to censorship,and that i don’t know peoples life stories or who they are as people. it’s media and no one forces me to consume any type of media, and i’m more than happy to block people if i don’t like or agree with it. most of those people also are VERY adamant about blocking them if you don’t like it,from my experience!

anyways again i’m so sorry if this is just an annoying word dump for you, i just thought i should share some perspective since i feel like this is a serious fandom thing, a lot of people get harassed for misunderstanding. i personally don’t like perpetuating labels and definitions that are based on misinformation, but again no one’s allowed to tell you what you have to do and you can just move on and ignore this if you so please🩵🩵🩵🩵🩵/genuine

understanding that a lot of new fandom talk is built on misinfo and being aware of that is a solid take, however i don’t think redefining and people choosing to interpret a textbook definition, a correct one, should be blamed on the person using the correct terminology

again your opinion is yours and personally i respect it 😄😄 absolutely no hate or pressure these sort of discussions simply interest me

also it makes so much sense to use proshippers as a dni buzzword because of how many people are misinformed, i just hate to see it be continued when as a fandom space we all could choose to return to correct definitions and use those

again. using it to avoid the masses is understandable, it’s just unfortunate

i love your art and stories and i’m continually excited to see what you come up with next!!! i hope you have a great day!!! (or night)🩵🩵🩵🩵🩵 and no pressure to answer this i understand that it’s an annoying ask to answer😶

Will say this once, I am very aware of what PRO-SHIPPING used to represent and what the older people in fandoms still use it for. However, that does not change the fact that rhe definition has changed. It just has. Any google search will tell you that. And though I can understand how that can be frustrating for you, I will still be saying dni proshippers and still seeing it as a problematic term due to the fact that’s how it’s primarily used. Its old definition is an old fandom term now. The people who still use it are as you said, from the older fandom times. Meaning that yes, it’s old definition is now inaccurate and also no longer represents what it means and trying to win it back or convince people otherwise won’t work, especially since I am not the one who misconstrued this old definition. I am not one of the new gen proshippers who changed this for you. Your issues would be with them, not me, a random artist who is keeping up with the times and avoiding problematic people from coming onto her page. I am trying to protect my page with the new gen knowledge. Reminiscing on the past in my ask box does nothing as I have no case in the change.

It has changed. It’s frustrating, but there’s nothing to be done. You acknowledge this yourself, and yet still claim it’s misinformation when it’s not. It’s an old term that turned into a new definition. That happens in history multiple times. It doesn’t mean it’s misinformation or wrong. It means that time has changed it and a new generation of people have taken the word, and that happens with the dialect of our world every century. The older proshipping definition, therefore, is old fandom history. And the people who still use it are going by those older rules which STILL equals to old fandom definition. The only people using it go by outdated fandom rules, expectations, and are possibly older. That’s….literally a combo of what makes an outdated and older used definition. And using these definitions knowing full well what the change has done to the word with the defense of “in old fandom times it was different” also makes me have little pity for you as if you’re fully aware and still chose to sport the label, that’s on you. Not saying you do this, just using an example.

Yes we have different opinions. It just makes no sense that you brought this to my askbox when I didn’t ruin the word for you. It’s the new generation proshippers. If you have a problem with it, go speak to them and their community who uses these terminology. I cant do anything?? And if you just wanted a discussion, I’m the last person to have a discussion with as I keep far away from the new community and also can’t speak for them?? This reads more like ur upset bc you use the label and therefore cant interact than an actual discussion, bc if you had a real problem with the change, you would NOT be in MY askbox. And yet you claim ur against proshipping so…it makes no sense

At the end of the day, this fandom deep dive stuff makes my head spin. Why are we defending incest lovers. Why are we trying to find an exact term for these weirdos. It doesn’t matter. It really doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things what an old fandom definition means because this is so chronically online bull. Weird ships are weird fucking ships. And those weirdos who make them use proshipping as a label. Therefore, I put them on a dni and block. It’s literally that simple and fandom terminology discourse is so insane to me I’m sorry LMAO. Like I have work in three hours dude I can’t with this 😭💀

[sadakodx]

honestly i have another extremely depressing addition to that last post which is that i've just been on the internet long enough that i always view certain extremely innocuous, plain-seeming phrases and terms with extreme suspicion, so i double-check op's blog before reblogging [usually. sometimes i forget] and often they're a freak.

like. it's important to note that on the opposite side of the spectrum of "sometimes these dogwhistles are just whistles" is "some of these aren't even just Strange Things Only The In-Group Is Meant To Understand, they're 100% meant to trick the average layperson into agreeing with them, too".

an example i've brought up a lot recently is people saying "censorship" when they mean "normal well adjusted people being against written and illustrated csam". same folks also invoke youth rights a lot, which is fucking evil considering the circumstances.

i keep typing more stuff but its all so obvious [to me, i guess.] and i'm trying to think of stuff that would seem Genuinely Fine to the untrained eye. ummmm. a lot of """fandom discourse""" posts that are mysteriously vague about what they're talking about are usually Also talking about simulated csam, or otherwise fetishization of abuse. but sometimes you get a wildcard and it's something deranged like the most 1800s level racism you've ever seen in your life! it's like finding a shiny pokemon if every aspect of that scenario was terrible.

key phrases include shit like "pshhh i can't believe YOU PEOPLE can't HANDLE when a VILLAIN is PROBLEMATIC" [reading comprehension exercise: What precisely did this villain do? Who are they? Why is this poster phrasing this in the most shallow, easily-molded way possible if they're so passionate about it?] and "UGH i can't believe you guys RUIN FRIENDSHIPS over SHIPPING DISCOURSE" [reading comprehension exercise: what 'ships', precisely? What was it about Person A's fixation on this fictional relationship that would make Person B uncomfortable befriending them?]

^ in general these types rely on the """fandom discourse""" angle a lot because if they couch it in that language it sounds sillier to the average person. "i can't believe i'm being CALLED OUT just because of ANIME FANART XD" sounds ridiculous, whereas "i can't believe i'm being called out just because i keep drawing naked 10 year olds" is a reason to consider someone a danger to those around them.

as u can see i'm mostly highly attuned to a Specific Type of Creep but with time i hope to hone the rest of my Asshole Detecting Skills to that level and become a human radar for shitheads, at which point i will probably never want to go outside again 👍

edit: OH I JUST REMEMBERED ANOTHER ONE people ALSO co-opted sex positive/kink positive language when really they just mean perpetuating rape culture and cycles of abuse and it sucks! it sucks and its shitty to the people actually trying to improve the conversation around these topics! AAAAAAUGH

[cosmossystem]

Hey, I'm sorry for suddenly dumping this onto your askbox, but I just feel the need to be heard

I honestly don't care about being anti and proship at all

But... Everytime I see a post from someone who proudly calling themselves anti... It's always so scarily violent

All those posts saying "kill yourself", "deserves to die", all of that stuff

If you don't like a person or stuff they make... Just block them, mute the tags they use, forget they ever exist

Literally easier to do that than harassing the said person or making others uncomfortable with your violence tendencies

This is why some people that have "I'm an anti" or "Proship dni" have become such a redflag to me, even tho most of the time people who uses them are genuinely just good people who misunderstood what proship is

I wish this whole discourse never existed, I miss everything before 2020...

^^ this

and we feel the exact same way

like we dont have any hard stances on shipcourse because both sides have misinfo and both are wrong about some things-- like, we are firmly anti-lolisho and thats one of the things that is usually seen as "proship", but we do have "problematic" ships and we believe in SALS and are anti-censorship. so much misinfo flies between the two because no one cares about being right, they care about looking right, much like every other fake-activist (which are unfortunately common these days.)

the only reason we even care to begin with is because antis have been so violent to us about it. if you arent with them, youre against them, and if youre against them, youre a target.

it seems like theres a lot of antis in neurodivergent & plural spaces, too, which is just crazy to me, so it feels like we have to specify every time "yes, we're the proship in your DNI, just block us please."

i do wanna say that while 2020 made things worse, ive been in shipcourse + fandom spaces since 2016 and it was pretty bad back then too. like in 2016 i had an anti-ship & anti-ddlg blog and there were DOZENS of other antis in the tags -- yall remember "character-against-bad-ships" blogs? yeah. we ran several of those and had hundreds of mutuals running them as well. (im getting flashbacks to "sonic-for-real-justice". eugh.)

we Fully Converted To Proshipism (/j) in about 2018-19, so i saw how bad it was getting right before covid and honestly its never fully recovered. fandom hasnt really been peaceful since... maybe before 2016? i dont know, i wasnt there. flaming and ship wars have always been around but i honestly cant think of when all this "pro v anti" stuff started. seems like it was a slow buildup and now its just fucking everywhere.

i know this wasnt the point of your ask, but im gonna go on a tangent here because i like to yap:

i think the current state of shipcourse is caused, in part, by the fact that younger generations are getting into fandom. except, i think every time someone points this out, they get it wrong and pin it on some bullshit like "younger fans are mistaking fandom for activism/politics!" that argument sucks because that doesnt afford any empathy to the teenagers and young adults who grew up in this awful fucking political climate (including myself.) fandom IS politics to young people, because they have been aware of the state of the world since the time they could read and dont know a world that isnt inherently political in every way.

and then that brings up the misconception that fandom isnt / should never be political, which isnt true and is literally just denial of what is already happening. every form of media and consumption is inherently political. proshippers tend to be wrong about that, plug their ears and lalala until it goes away while ignoring the very political parts of fandom-- like the misogyny, racism, ableism, aphobia... etc.

and so we get stuck in the same song and dance because everyone is wrong and parrots the same disinfo. fandom is very black and white like that. its either everything is ok, or none of it is, with no room for nuance. like for instance: you can enjoy shipping the canonically-aroace character with someone and that doesnt make you a bad person, but dont pretend that doesnt have any real world implications. and so on.

anyway. thank you for the ask, anon. sorry this got really long and passionate. im very opinionated.

- red

[karinarro]

Hey hey, I saw your tweets about mgs fans who have proship DNI in their profiles being absolute morons and hypocrites and I just want to say THANK YOU because I feel like I’m losing brain cells over having to wade through so much bullshit in the metal gear fandom of all things. We might have a different focus on what blorbos we have (I’m more on the mgr side of the fandom but love the entire franchise) but I just wanted to send a big 🤝🤝🤝🤝🤝 because booooy does it feel lonely here sometimes.

It’s especially funny because when you think about it, the biggest proshipper in the metal gear fandom would be Kojima himself. Idk how people get into mgs and have never looked up the big words they put in their mouths even once. Like how can someone live like that, getting into a series that is supposed to make you THINK about what happens and how it’s a reflection of real world issues, and then turn around and parrot some right wing rhetorics repackaged as fandom “activism” 24/7, inherently contradicting that you even understood what these games were about despite claiming so otherwise.

It’s so… brainless and boring and as someone who loves to discuss the complexity of this franchise (and things in general), I am glad to come across a likeminded person in this fandom.

Like man I felt like I’m getting to old for this, I got into mgs before anti ship as we have it now was even a thing in the internet. But seeing that you’re about a decade younger than me and get that all of this stuff is horseshit, I feel like I am not losing hope 😅😅

I hope you’re having a great day :]

Also I love your art 🫶

Hey there!! Thanks so much for the kind message, I mean it 🥹🫶 I love MGR too!! I was so obsessed w it as a kid. I had my Raiden phase too~ (Still kinda am! That game awakened my love of mecha.) This is my first time dipping my toes into the MGS fandom. Coming from someone who usually lurks in smaller fan spaces, and said fan spaces are largely pro-fic, I really didn't expect the onslaught of antis interacting w my art hahaha! I was ripping my hair out vetting new followers that came into my twitter. Metal gear is a game filled with so much political commentary, I think I expected... more critical thinking y'know? The fans you mentioned are probably just as bad as the fanboys who think whatever went between BB and ocelot is just a 'russian taunt' I agree w/ what you said Kojima being profic LOL The man hated to have his life's work censored. To him, games aren't only a medium for his stories, but it's also a way to express his opinions & ideas. MGS in particular, it's about war. How war affects regular people, the devastation it brings them. How the fuckheads behind it are orchestrating it, taking advantage of the military industrial complex (To quote Kaz, "And war will become a business...") I'm again reminded of that analysis you rb'd from me: "Peace is only possible in the case of war criminals when they’ve been buried." I can't fathom how so many people missed that message in MGSV. As you said, it seems like people are fucking blind to the fact that their faves are bad people. They are war criminals! Some people in fandom acting like they are above it all, saying 'proshitter dni' and repeating fascist talking points is just so... I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Because you are either that dense, or media illiterate or emotionally unintelligent or... something ! Most that I've seen so far who do this are teenagers, which okay. They are still figuring things out, I can excuse them a little bit. But there are adults over 20 who do this too and I'm just... wow. You know? To stand for Antis is to stand for censorship in fiction. And that goes against everything that Kojima believes. Haha dw there are people my age who aren't this stupid! I've been hanging out in more profic spaces and they're out there. You're not alone friend!! I hope you have a nice day too :] Lmk if you wanna be mutuals on twitter! 🌻

[even-more-pro-fiction-jellicle]

I wish we could go back to how older fandoms worked. Not saying they were a perfect utopia without issues but we didn’t have political language attached to ships and fiction and we had healthier skepticism towards people we didn’t know

Antis created this good vs evil dichotomy in fandoms several years ago. They blindly believe anyone with “proship dni” in bio or similar is automatically “good” since they’re “against pedophiles/pedophilia”

I’m getting major red flags from anyone who says “I’m a safe adult” or “you can identify a predator based on xyz, like the fiction they like”

That’s not how it works and is dangerous to say! Because not too long ago people were using this same excuse against anyone (mostly queer/trans people) who liked dnd, rock and roll, or superhero comics. And it was all just moral panic because no one was actually “evil” for liking any of those things

And also adults can pretend to be good and “not like those freaks”, culminating a community full of minors. abusers are often hiding in 'morally pure' roles so people should be even more vigilant of who's around them in those cases.

Also, predators can be in ANY community! But instead of realizing that and telling people to stay vigilant, antis do the opposite.

“There’s so many of us, it’s just bound to happen someday!”

“We have less predators than communities who think xyz”

The key point is: antis don’t care about keeping people safe. Antis care too much about fictional ships to the point they just let bad stuff happen or become people who are adults or support adults who try to “cure” minors from being pro-ship (this has actually happened) as if that’s totally not inappropriate

You bring up the similarities between anti ideology and the moral guardian ideology that's against D&D, rock music, video games, comic books, etc and most antis will either be willfully obtuse (because at this point in so many conversations it has to be on purpose) or just get angrier and more violent cuz you sniffed them out to well.

There's people on this site who are openly supportive of the Hays Code and Comics Code for specific defunct but still culturally relevant censorship policies. I don't know if it's better or worse that a growing amount are at least finally acknowledging that they are active and intentional pro-censorship political activists. There's still plenty who get really mad when people rightfully classify them as pro-censorship and the inherent political and community leanings that come with that. Again, willfully obtuse because we have plenty of history to show them why what they want is a bad idea and they have no explanation for why it would be different "this time".

That's my 2 cents on that topic and I agree with everything else you said as well.

[zeroducks-2]

I have noticed that anti rhetoric seems to go against most of the old types of ships people would flock to in like 2008, Sasunaru is a ship of all time but Bakudeku is abusive. Even if there isn't anything wrong with a queer ship (can't be called pedo or incest) messy and angsty ships are treated as worse than super fluffy ones, and tbh this has kind of made me feel alienated from fandom.

I know that I repeat myself but it's true. You're right. The purity culture that antis employ is rooted in homophobia, which is why even the fluffiest gay ships get targeted 100% more than the "dark" het ships. If you ship Jaytim you're a freak of nature and you should repent, but if you ship Brubabs you're fine - mostly fine at least.

Because here's the thing. They started coming after the dark ships and the really heavy kinks, then they switched to just non-vanilla ships and mild kinks, then they expanded to any ship that has a vaguely "unhealthy" connotation (sometimes this unhealthy connotation is made up), and kink doesn't even need to be involved. They are starting to attack het shippers too - it doesn't happen as often but I do see people being harassed for shipping Sasunaru and Sasusaku, or Brubabs, or anything the casual anti dislikes really. The dynamic of laying out why a ship is pRoBLeMatiC, arguing how shipping is bad and makes you a bad person, seeped into fandom spaces of all kinds and is employed even by people who aren't antis themselves, because it got just so widespread. It's essentially the norm for a lot of people; they see a new ship and their first reaction is to dissect it to find reason to harass who ships it (see one of my mutuals who got bullied to hell and back for drawing punkflower because of course if you ship Miles and Hobie you're a pedophile, even if Hobie's official age has not been disclosed, and Miles is most certainly not a child).

The so called discourse will keep spreading. I know this sounds alarmist but there is no limit to anti mentality, it's kinda like how republicans take it out on trans people, then spread it to queer people in general, then go after the rights of women and children and if they could they'd abolish divorce. I'm pretty sure they will actually try depending on how the elections go next year. Antis are on the same path. Now we progressed to a point where het ships aren't safe anymore either, and some antis make the case that sex and nsfw content should not exist at all in any kind of media, fictional and transformative alike, not just the "toxic" representations of it.

I too feel alienated from fandom too because of that. It's an old adage, but fandom is supposed to be a safe space and it's just not that anymore (come to Aethy for a better experience btw, they really do have a policy to kick antis out if they bother people). Sure block the people you don't want to see, customize your own space, tailor it for yourself and all of that. But when you are a creator it's consistently harder, harassment is always around the corner especially when you're an artist. Especially because a website like tumblr directly caters to antis and censorship worshippers and does not by any means defend who's getting harassed.

[griseldagimpel]

300 Works on AO3 Check In

I now have 300 works up on AO3. The only harassment from Antis I've received is a hate Ask from an Izzy-Anti and a nasty comment from an anon really upset that I included a pit bull in my fic.

I've also gotten dogpiled, rude comments, and my works reported for talking about racism, but those people don't typically identify as "Antis".

For that matter, you get people who do identify as Antis but don't harass anyone. And most people in fandom have something they dislike but keep that to their own blogs rather than harassing anyone, even if they feel really strong about it. Like, in my current fandom (The Locked Tomb), a lot of the fandom really does not like John Gaius (my blorbo) or second cousin incest ship Camilla/Palamedes (my OTP), but I have not received any harassment for my fandom content here.

So let's talk about strawmen, exaggerated harm, and Making Up A Guy.

See, the reason I started doing these check ins is that I'd encounter breathless warnings about Antis harassing people across fandom. Don't leave comments turned on for your dark fic, the warnings would go, or you'll get harassed. You can't ship X without getting harassed, I was told.

And it just wasn't matching up with my experiences, even though I'm a prolific fic writer who writes a variety of content for a multitude of ships.

Oh, Antis who harass people exist. Like I said, I've encountered them. And I've seen the same happen with others. But I feel like the fear of Antis on a pan-fandom basis outstrips the actual threat. (It seems like some fandoms have a worse Anti harassment problem than others. Our Flag Means Death is bad, and I've heard horror stories about Voltron. But that's the thing: the warnings I see don't narrow their scope to a few specific fandoms; they treat it as if every fandom is as bad as Voltron.)

Now let's talk about Tiffany G. Last year, Tiffany G ran for the AO3 board. Now, like all candidates, she had to meet certain volunteer requirements; not just anyone can run for an AO3 board position.

Tiffany G made some comments about wanting to push back against misconceptions of AO3, and fandom lost its damn mind. She got accused, no lie, of being an infiltrator spy for the Chinese government. Hey, if you're ever wondering why the AO3 board isn't more diverse, it's because when a Chinese fan ran, fandom rallied together to slander her as a spy for the Chinese government. Fans openly celebrated when she lost. Which, you know, has to be a really shitty experience for a devoted AO3 volunteer.

And she was positioned as an Anti and a threat to fandom.

Fandom collectively Made Up A Guy. The phantom menace they'd made up didn't reflect who Tiffany G actually was or what she wanted. It was a caricature - a strawman for fandom to band together and destroy. But there was a real human person being targeted by all that ire.

So what's going on?

Well, out in meat space, there is a lot of censorship and repression, from the U.K. banning protests to the U.S. banning everything from books to gender affirming care to a thousand other shitty things happening all over the globe.

And that can make people feel genuinely powerless. Making Up A Guy to destroy is easy. It makes people feel like they've accomplished something.

But they haven't accomplished anything.

Well, except for probably making one dedicated AO3 volunteer (Tiffany G) feel like shit. Good job, everyone. You didn't stop fascism, but you hurt one random person.

And this is what all the warnings about Antis harassing people are about, why they're broad instead of narrow and why they tend to overstate the [real!] problem.

Because it's about Making Up A Guy that fans can feel so brave for opposing.

Because that's easier than actually doing something.

[notemily]

Well, ladypfenix seems to have blocked me, which is a shame because I adore her stuff about morality in MDZS and would love to read more from her. But before blocking me she reblogged my post and I just wanted to defend myself against some of the things I'm accused of.

For the record this is the post, which I can't reblog because of being blocked.

I keep saying things about what I personally like and people keep interpreting that as me saying that my preferences are objectively better or that I think gay stories are better when they're sexless and subtextual, which is not what I'm saying at all.

(And yeah I'm probably missing some context, but expecting everyone in a fandom to have read every post people make in order to Have All The Context is unrealistic. There are new people joining this fandom all the time with no context whatsoever and it'd be nice if they didn't immediately get attacked for daring to express an opinion.)

As for Wangxian, of course I don't prefer for them to be best friends instead of husbands. I have read many an E rated fanfic about them on Ao3. People accusing me of just wanting sanitized queer stories where nobody has sexual desire are missing the mark. But I do get turned off by things like their first kiss being nonconsensual. "I just couldn't help myself, I had to kiss the guy even though he didn't know who I was" is NOT what I'm looking for in a fictional love interest. The Lan Wangji of The Untamed seems like he wouldn't do that, so I was more drawn to him than the version in the novel.

And yeah, I do think book Wei Wuxian is pretty oblivious. He catches up fast once he realizes what's going on, but as evidenced by the fact that he tells Jiang Cheng that he and Lan Wangji are "just friends" when they're at Lotus Pier near the end of the story, he doesn't realize what's going on for quite a long time. Yeah, there are reasons for that, but again, it's not what I prefer in a romance. And the trope of one person being oblivious while the other is pining is one MXTX seems to like - I'm reading SVSSS now and Shen Qingqiu is similarly unaware of how Luo Binghe feels about him for most of the novel. (And even when he does realize it, I have some trouble buying that he's attracted to Luo Binghe in return.) (Obviously Shen Qingqiu LOVES Luo Binghe, but I've been reading him as gray-ace and I don't think I'm alone in that headcanon.)

Another trope she seems to like is one where the first time the couple has sex is painful for one of them, and I just really don't like that. This DOESN'T mean I think she's wrong to write it or that people who do like it are wrong to like it, just that it's not my thing!

I prefer it when fictional couples both want to kiss each other, and when they take their time and make sure nobody is hurting when they have sex (and use lube). Preferring those things doesn't make me anti-sex or anti-gay. But I was disappointed by those scenes when I read the book, while I wasn't expecting the show to give me any sex scenes at all, so it didn't disappoint me in that sense. (I was disappointed by the show's ending where they separate, but it was ambiguous enough not to bother me too much.)

Anyway. I think the show is remarkably good for how much they had to cut out of the book in order to fit the censorship guidelines, which makes me wonder how much better it could have been if they didn't have to adhere to those. But I do think there's a romance there and it's a romantic show. Subtext isn't text, true, but it's also not nothing. The people making the show clearly knew they were adapting a romance, and the relationship between Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji is the heart of the show.

Anyone who thinks the part with "the feeling of sticking to the single log bridge is indeed not bad" isn't a romantic scene because they don't explicitly get together later... I just do not get that. (Some people have even pinpointed the part in the show where they are implied to get together - it's in episode 43 - and yeah it's not explicit, but it's there if you look for it.)

Anyway now that I'm blocked by half the fandom I'll go back to shutting up, at least until the next time I get it into my head to Have Opinions, which is clearly not allowed around here.

[bonebirds]

This got long but I'm fucking pissed. Content warnings for abuse mentions, trafficking mentions, discourse about discourse to prevent future discourse, "proshipper" nonsense, grooming, etc.

This is gonna be the one time I open my mouth about this because haha, hey, years of internalized fear and shame. I'm trying to lay down a boundary and that comes with so much anticipated backlash.

I do, for the record, have a background in Yelling about the crossroads of media/culture/literature/academia/games studies/trauma/capitalism. Which is a wide range and we can thank my comp exams in the PhD for that.

Since this is tumblr I also gotta just do the fuckin' disclaimer before anyone else feels like doing the "if you don't publicly condemn xyz then I'm gonna make your day worse" thing:

I don't participate in fandom and I don't ship things. I'm not about to defend specific instances or pairings because everything exists in subjective contexts, and texts especially so. But also, I have graduate degrees in English and text analysis and lived experience with CSA and trafficking that went on for a long fucking time. And I am very, very tired of being called the worst things you can call a trauma survivor because I don't care about shipping.

I'm not anti-ship, or whatever. I am not down for imposing my own trauma, feelings about it, and opinions on others in order to censor their art. Call me a proshipper if you want -- ignoring the part where I don't write fanfic or participate in fandom -- because I agree with them. I condemn CSA/CSEM, abusers, predators, the entire evil side of humanity but people who write fic aren't that. Neither are people who read it, even the most problematic of the problematic.

People can write, as fiction, as fantasy, whatever they want. There are no real people being harmed. I can distinguish between those things and, again, am a survivor of some very intense abuse. You're welcome to disagree. I'm fine with that if you're fine with me. I don't believe in absolutes when it comes to topics this complicated (and it is). I spent years on the opposite side, actually, because just the MENTION of things like incest or age gaps triggered me. And then I would do the same and get mad at the people writing it.

This is not healthy and it is not healing on either side of the argument.

But also in treating everything like such a monolithic moral purity test, where you're either good or deserve to suffer -- a test that I fail, because there is no room for things like Complexity -- you just spent a lot of time telling me I'm as bad as the people who trafficked me. Because of fiction. Because of fake things happening to fake people, based on an idea in someone else's head, people's real harm and real trauma means we're as bad as their abusers. That is so heavily the implication in so much of this talk. If I don't disregard my degrees, my training, my own experiences, my own principles and take a stand against people shipping things on the internet, I must basically be a predator!

That is violent and fucked up.

I don't want you around here, so block me and get it over with.

I (like a lot of people with trauma histories) use fiction and writing to process and heal. I don't even post them. A lot of that writing, and being able to seek it out, was helpful. It was a connection to someone else out in the world who maybe understood a little bit of the pain and fear and confusion.

There's a difference between fiction and real abuse. And the "but predators use it to groom vulnerable children" angle barely holds water -- predators use anything. Mainstream TV shows. Vending machine snacks. Gumballs. Access to a remote control to change a channel. A lot of things are more accessible and friendly to kids than making them read. Advocating for censorship, especially in today's political hellhouse, is not actually helpful. It just feels really righteous.

Which doesn't mean there aren't those trying to leverage fic to "normalize" abuse and grooming, I absolutely believe they have and do, but that does not justify externalizing your pain and trauma onto others, or policing them, or trying to take control back by claiming an imaginary moral high ground and pinning other people to it. It also doesn't mean that censoring the internet of all things icky to you saves the world, the kids, anything. It just means they'll find easier avenues, of which there are already so many. It also means you're all just attacking people from a place of presumed hurt rather than compassion, curiosity, anything like that.

So.

Anyone whose stance on this entire thing boils down to "you agree with me or you're a secret pedo enabler," you need to leave.

I'm happy to talk about it if you want! I don't think people trying to draw those lines are right but I think they're well-intentioned, until they start calling me shit that triggers entire mental collapses. You know. In the name of saving the children. Which hasn't been a red flag for conservatism and oppression for hundreds of years or anything, either. How many kids do you think are protected by shutting down places they can actually go and talk about the darkest shit in their heads? How many of us just suffer unbearable pain and isolation because the culture around us is shame-based and if you think about things like that, you're Just Like Them?

This ain't about protecting kids, basically. This discourse never has been. It's about being righteous and never examining why that is. It's about lashing out and displacement. I think the concern for victims is real, like I said, but that concern can translate to actual, real help elsewhere. People are DOING the work to make the internet safer. This? Is not that work.

You are responsible for how you manage your trauma and pain, and that has to include not taking it out on others. Full stop. Even when you disagree. Even when everything in your brain is going DANGER ALARMS DANGER ALARMS DANGER ALARMS WE MUST STOP THIS because someone ships something you think is wrong or uncomfortable. It sucks, and it sucks we have to do that, and it sucks we have to learn how. None of us asked to. None of us wanted to end up here. It's not victim blaming to say you're accountable for your own recovery.

But while you are here, maybe consider that the name/shame/blame model hasn't been working either. For hundreds of fucking years. We know shame doesn't motivate people to care, or learn.

But especially when you're weaponizing shame against trauma survivors for recognizing their own experiences in literature, art, stories. We all struggle with toxic shame. Using it against people until they agree with you?

Holy shit just look in the mirror one day, I guess. But block me first.

[xx-slug-xx]

I like Starrbarr's carrd about the proship vs. antiship debocle but I disagree with her on giving Antis the benefit of the doubt.

How many people have been hurt by antis? how many harassed, doxxed, how many minors? I agree that proshippers harassing antis is fucked, but antis do it FAR MORE and are far, far more cruel. They HAVE been really hypocritical and cult-like and monolithic; far, FAR more than I think this person realizes- do WE really owe the chance to be heard out to antis when antis have done nothing but hurt people? over stuff that doesn't exist?

I know several people in proship spaces that are traumatized over Antishippers, and they have the RIGHT to be traumatized, they have the right to be MAD, to not want to give antis "the benefit of the doubt" EVER.

if Antis have the right to their trauma, WE should have the right to our trauma too.

Sorry that I got to this ask a bit late! But, honestly, to some extent, I agree with the "benifit of the doubt" thing! But I also agree with you as well, anon!

I have seen my fair share of antis being horrible people. Both to me and toward others. Yes, people have more than the right to be upset about this. People also have the right to avoid anyone who uses the "antiship" label or who has "proship dni" in their bios. However, not all antis are out there doxxing and harassing proshippers. I've known a lot of antis who simply use the label because they don't want to be harassed by true antis. For a large number of antis, they simply don't want to be associated with "problematic fiction". Is this part of the problem, yes absolutely, and it does help perpetuate the harassment toward proshippers, whether they like "problematic fiction" or not. But the difference is that these guys aren't doing so with any sort of malicious intent. They are just protecting themselves, and they have the right to. True antis have ruined the internet and fandom for everyone, and this is a great example.

I also want to add that there are a lot of antis who don't actually know what proship means at all. Just that they think it means "people who like lolisho". Does this mean that they have an excuse to harass people? Absolutely not. But misinformation spreads like wildfire, and people are more likely to use the "antiship" label as a way to simply say "I don't like lolisho". The problem lays in the fact that no anti has the same definition for proship :/ It changes depending on who you ask. Some say it means you like lolisho, some say it means you like incest, some say it means you like rape, and some say it means all three, and then some. Antis aren't organized and can't agree on anything. Even the label "antiship" can mean a whole hell of a lot of different things. Most proshippers say that antiship means "people who are pro-censorship and pro-harassment", and there are absolute antis who use the label as such. But when misinformation about what both proship and antiship are spread around, they won't use the antiship label how it's historically and contextually meant to be used.

Anyone who hassles people though isn't cool in my book. I feel like I am with you on that one, anon. No proshipper should feel obligated to inform someone who is spreading libel against them what "the true meaning of proship is". When you have bullies, you don't need to show them love and compassion. It's your choice. You don't need to turn the other cheek and show people mercy when they want you dead. People like that don't care how "nice" you are or not. They are the kinds of people who don't care about the actual meanings behind the words they are using. They care about how fun it is to harass people on the internet. These are true antis.