#whats the point of meaningful change in the real world from barbieland if the real world is just as much of a parody

[cipheramnesia]

Re: your tags, I don't think this is going off the rails, and it's sort of interesting to me that what you're describing reflects similar to my experience (I was not depressed, but I was and still am baffled [well, maybe a little depressed - I cannot get over how unpleasant Ken's characterization was]), but it also raises an interesting point of nuance.

That is, there's the usual uniformed alt right critics who just hate anything that breathes near a woman, obviously there's not any nuance to that. However, generally speaking the crux of both people who love the movie and people with actual negative feedback (not just knee jerk reactivism) is the issue of nuance. Both groups seem to agree nuance is key but people who liked it feel criticism lacks nuance, while people who did not like the movie find it suffers from a lack of nuance.

There's different ways to approach the question - for example it's possible to argue that having these conversations represents the intended effect of the movie. I don't believe that to be the case, but it's a fair interpretation. It's arguable that the movie literally makes it's thesis statement in Gloria's monologue and intends the rest of the movie, whole cloth, as demonstrating this thesis. Which, I don't think it does, but also that's a valid interpretation - which is kinda the whole point of criticism, not to come to a right opinion, but to have a discussion about art.

On the third side, I find it weighs heavily that the response to negative criticism is either that we were thinking to much about a fun lighthearted movie or that we just didn't have the nuance to understand it. It's a scab I really need to stop picking at.

I mean saying the movie supported men's rights kind of ignores that what the kens did was painted as bad. Like that was very much the message of the film

That was the text of the film but not the message.

I'm not going to apply greater nuanced analysis to a movie that had all coherent structure papered over in producer notes. But for a movie that spends a lot of time pointing out situations that are unfair, not equal, or "bad" it didn't have anything to say about why or what might actually resolve the inequality.

Not saying it needs to author the revolution or anything, just it kinda stopped at "patriarchy bad because men rule all and are dumb boys who are gross" and I think that's boring? It's like hey, inequality sure is bad! And it seems like weird and wrong the girl empowerment doll for diverse women is exclusively developed by old white men! Followed by crickets chirping.

I was kinda waiting for the other shoe to drop, like yes, this is a pretty fun satirical look at gender and... and..? And that's it. Barbie world goes back to hierarchical control in a perfect utopia. The real world is unaffected because all those executives are just silly guys who are trying their best. Gloria gets to be a good mom, and hands her ideas over to the corporation. The new line of Barbies are Barbies that just don't want anything at all. And Margot Barbie just leaves.

Which is unfortunate because it starts out with a great deal of very interesting ideas, but ends up without anything much to say at all. It uses all the right words but mostly just kinda ascribes broad universal meaning and morality rather than considering any of it could have some underlying complexity.

We all know feminism can't hold hands with capitalism, but the Barbie movie wants the cache of the feminist movement beholden to the bottom line of Mattel's investors. And as a fun movie about children's dolls it's fine, but it's also selling itself as a feminist film, which it very much is not.

[kelyon]

Have you seen the Barbie movie? If so what did you think about it?

I have seen it twice. It is overall Good and worth seeing. The soundtrack is a banger, the costumes and production design are STUNNING in the age of bland digital nonsense. All of the moments that you've been told are iconic... are iconic. It's funny in both big and small ways. Love the actors, love the characters. I hope that the lesson Hollywood learns is "more women movies" and not just "more toy movies."

It is a good movie.

That being said, the feminism kind of left me cold? Or it just didn't feel "for me." It really doesn't feel "for" any individual, but just this general swath of people who can identify with "Barbie." (Even though the movie goes way out of its way to present as many diverse Barbies as possible--except Barbie-attracted Barbies--it can't escape the fact that not all women are Barbies. Barbieland has diversity of every kind except for Barbies that are messy and tired.)

As a writer, my thought is that the scope of the movie is too broad. It wants to be about Barbie (a toy discovering reality), and Gloria (a woman who idealizes Barbie), and Sasha (a girl who rejects Barbie) and Barbieland (all the other Barbies and Kens--and Allan) and also touch on the Real World.

I feel like this story would be more meaningful if it was more personal. If it was just about Gloria and Sasha reconciling their relationships with Barbie and with each other. Something about this perfect model of femininity as both an aspiration and also an impossible goal. I wonder how this movie would be if it was told from their perspectives--starting out in the real world of middle school and soul-sucking office work, and then Barbie shows up and is like "Hey! Your problems are affecting me so we need to solve them in order to help each other!"

And I like the Ken stuff and the patriarchy, but I feel like it deserves its own movie. This movie is trying to say everything it can about feminism and women and relating to men, and it's part of the text of the movie that everything is too much and just saying stuff sucks is the answer.

Maybe that's why it feels hollow to me. People have been saying modern life sucks for women for a long time, and that hasn't solved anything. Just "accepting the cognitive dissonance" doesn't "rob the patriarchy of its power." The patriarchy is still there! Gloria is still a secretary, Will Ferrell and Mattel Male Chorus are still in charge! Even within the world of the movie, the only thing that changes is Barbie herself (and maybe Ken? Like, I guess he's Kenough, but does that mean anything, practically? Unlike Barbie, he stays a toy. He's never going to have an ending.)

It's just such a mess, and it's trying to say things and I applaud it for trying. But there's also something really sad about a movie that seems to say 'being aware of the problem is the solution." Again, even in the movie, Gloria already knew what the problem was... and it never helped her. So what's even the point?

What was it made for?