#vm vs m9

[beauregardlionett]

re-watching vm v. m9 and i forgot how fucking ruthlessly beau killed scanlan holy shit girl talk about daddy issues

[piratespencil]

I’m 13 minutes into the VM vs M9 one shot and it’s already so horny. Already a contender for horniest episode of CR.

[deborah-the-downer]

YALL I JUST THOUGHT ABOUT IT

During the solstice, does Beau see Vax and you go "what the actual fuck, that's the twink I fought in a dream"

I need to know

[gorgynei]

sorry to vax's variety of bird masks but his mask to me will always always always be this one. ignore that its from literally his least canon official art but its the rawest mask.

[revvethasmythh]

While thinking about a potential VM vs M9 Battle Royale sequel, it suddenly occurred to me just how unbelievably horny Veth would be about Grog. Fjord might not be in this one, but by god would Veth be bothering another Travis character

[ashleyjohnsonoftheday]

Day 517

[astralleywright]

i keep seeing people's complaints about the god stuff mill down to "it's getting in the way of the rp, they never talk to each other ever unless it's about gods!" which would have been a fair argument... if they hadn't been trotting it out since 30 episodes ago...

like not only is it not true that its all they talk about it also is?? rp?? very essential for telling the story rp?? great for exploring many of the major themes of the campaign and how the characters relate to and understand them rp??? are they just supposed to talk about their feelings all the time with their feelings being completely divorced from the world moving beneath their feet??? i've been watching Leverage with my mom these past couple months and i can feel myself turning into Sophie Devereaux as i answer this ask. does no one care about story anymore?? about narrative??

[belphegor1982]

Feeling a little bit down today because while Percahlia and Vaxleth are celebrating because the S3 trailer fed them very well, Pikelan got nothing 😭

I’m holding out hope that they’re just saving some good stuff for when the show actually drops (Like they did with Season 2) but it’s kinda rough out here, especially when a majority of the mutuals are celebrating their ships and it’s just crickets for Pikelan.

I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be such a downer about it. I am really excited about this season but it’s just hard to celebrate and I hope me just barging in and “complaining” doesn’t sound too childish

Hey, it's okay! Sometimes we just need to vent. Barge away, I wasn't kidding when I said my door was open 💜 (that's one door that isn't a mortal enemy, lol)

I understand the frustration! But keep in mind that it's just a 1:46-long video, and I'm actually grateful that we (as Critters, broadly speaking) got so little. It's not a trailer that shows so much you feel you've already seen 85% of the thing, and thank goodness! Plus, I was a total wide-eyed show-only newbie then, so I'm not including myself in it, but do you remember how episodes 1-3 had Pikelan fans feeling like :-/ and maybe short-changed a little? And then we got the road trip in 2.07 and episode 2.09 was all about the big and smalls! (literally, the other four only returned in 2.10!) And 2.12 and the kiss!! (and the almost accidental love confession :D Oh, Scanlan. I love this dumbass so much.)

Tl;dr you're not childish, you're not a downer, and it's okay to be disappointed. I hoped for more too, and I'm not telling you to manage your expectations; just that we got not even a slice but a taste of pizza that has delicious smoked scamorza, sweet mozzarella, and peppered pecorino, and we know there's creamy gorgonzola on it too, we just haven't got to that part yet 💜 (can you tell it's almost dinner time and I'm hungry? :P)

Lil' thing under the cut for some wild Pike (and Scanlan) theorising, because TLOVM spoilers - let's get excited and enthusiastic about our gnomes!

So Pike looked exhausted in the Hells, right? Poor darling 😬 I'm really excited that she's going with them (maybe to reclaim Percy's soul after Glintshore?).

Also, I really wonder if the flashback we had of her with dark hair in season 2 was an Easter egg or foreshadowing for S3. You know how 2.09 has flashbacks to Grog's youth and what led to Wilhand (and Pike 💜) adopting him? I'm thinking they might (might!) do something like this for Scanlan's death - bookending his resurrection with flashbacks of Pike's. But I'm not sure, because when Kash brought Vex back to life Pike pointed out she'd never tried a revival rite and Kash said it was super rare. What do you think?

One thing's for sure, though, I am NOT READY for the way this season is going to kick me in the heart through my teeth ^^

[sabbathicy-art]

Death-match Molly!

[artemis-pendragon]

I do truly in my very core believe without a shred of doubt that lvl 20 Beau could beat any other CR player character's ass in a 1v1 if Yasha was watching. No this is not up for debate. Yes I am gay.

[thedragonagelesbian]

the cr tag has been too normal lately. im glad a vocal minority of the fandom has responded to the m9 animated series announcement like an agitated beehive that they need to shake even harder

[essayofthoughts]

There definitely is something to poke at with the social classes of Vox Machina, but you've got a few points incorrect here that I think ought be corrected?

His family, ruling the independent city-state of Whitestone for thousands of years, were so horrible at it that their own staff conspired to violently and brutally murder them when a demon worshipper and her vampire trophy husband showed up and said "hey you wanna help us murder and usurp the De Rollos?"

The de Rolo staff did not just join the Briarwoods. The one (1) individual who did was Professor Byron Anders', Percy's tutor and the one member of staff on his List. This is not due to personal treatment but due to the fact that Anders is a Vecna cultist, just like Delilah. Per the stream, they find letters between him and Riskel Daxio, another Vecna cultist, conspiring as to how to manage Emon and Sovereign Uriel. It was for religious reasons.

Stonefell, despite the assumptions of some, was explicitly stated by Percy to have been the Briarwoods' head of guard, not his family's. He was not a member of the de Rolo staff.

Archibald Desnay in the stream, was Chancellor to Percy's father, and assisted Yennen and the multiple rebellion attempts by the people, which leads to the next-

The Whitestone Rebellion was rallied around Cassandra and indeed, she was first nursed back to health (from being shot) it seems by Father Reynal and Keeper Yennen and was only captured by the Briarwoods after the first rebellion. Which she helmed. The de Rolos had the support of the populace of Whitestone.

Now, the question of if aristocracy should be so regarded is a worthwhile point to raise! Sovereign Uriel himself decides to refashion Tal'Dorei into a republic precisely because he had it sharply brought home how hinging everything on one fallible person was such an issue (shadow demons, Sylas Briarwood), so it's definitely a theme that Matt wanted to bring up. Similarly, Percy is the one to suggest to Cassandra (note, Cassandra is the ruler of Whitestone, not Percy, Percy deliberately abdicated that responsibility and instead left it to Cass, it's one of his many flaws that he prefers to run away from responsibility and instead saddle his sister with it!) that Whitestone should have a council instead of hinging solely on a family which could so easily be beheaded, which leads to the Chamber of Whitestone by the time of Tal'Dorei Reborn.

Is it still flawed? Yes, absolutely, even elected democracies have the problem of who ends up in power and how accurately they represent the populace. But do be clear on why the de Rolos were overthrown (Vecna cult reasons, not de Rolo maltreatment for all I'm sure that the de Rolos could be as much posh arseholes as anyone of their class, see also: Percy) and who ends up ruling.

Vex and Vax are both Elven aristocracy. Sure, they had to deal with prejudice from their community (in the Game) and an abusive father (in the Show, and to a slightly lesser degree, in the Game) but their station as born into the aristocracy is something even the prejudiced Syngorn elves recognise.

See, that is actually complicated? Because as half-elves, they are second-class in Syngorn, and may not actually be citizens of Syngorn. Syldor is, but we don't know about the twins - just that they were brought to Syngorn (note that: brought to) by Syldor, and certainly benefited from a Syngornian education.

But they were born into ... a working class home by a single mother. Per stream, the first ten or so years of their life, they were working class villagers being raised by a single mum, and that definitely shaped them just as much as their time in Syngorn. They had the benefits of a Syngornian education, but they were very aware of the class and circumstance differences between them, born as working class, mixed-race bastards versus their legitimate, entirely-elven, upper class classmates. Their situation is honestly closer to mixed race kids being taken in by their white parent several years on, as several people in the fandom have pointed out (@crithaus and @burr-ell, for example). It's considerably messier than you make out here.

Grog is part of the Herd of Storm's ruling class and left the Herd specifically because of moral reasons.

Again, a smidge complicated. It was Grog's uncle that ruled the Herd, and the Herd doesn't really seem to have a "class" system the same way that, say, Syngorn, Tal'Dorei, or Whitestone do. There's Kevdak, there's his son Zanror, there's the advisor Greenbeard, and most of the others are fighters, likely ranked by capability. Grog didn't exactly leave for moral reasons - he was kicked out! At the end of the day, in the herd, the Thunderlord - in that instance, Kevdak - had the ultimate authority and while Grog probably got along fine before being kicked out, "class" doesn't really become a thing when the ruler at any point can just have you killed or kicked out.

I'd also raise that it seems that Ashari Headmasters are chosen based on proficiency, not based on bloodline? Keyleth wasn't chosen to be the next Voice because her mother was chosen before her, but because of her prodigal magical skills. She certainly was rapidly raised in social standing due to that, but Keyleth did make a point to Tiberius that while she's kind of a princess to her people, Ashari don't have royalty the way that other groups do.

But to be clear... yeah, Vox Machina is skewed pretty upper class! There's things to talk about there, from how Percy's upbringing shaped him (and made him so very punchable at times, he is my blorbo but I would absolutely punt him down a flight of stairs), to how Tiberius' class insulated him from ever having to think about how he benefits from the enslavement of the Ravenites, to Vex's desire for recognised standing versus Vax's more anti-authoritarian tendencies in contrast, refusing to respect Syngorn or Syldor for how they treated him and Vex.

So, to get to your conclusion:

So, and sorry if this doesn't sound leftisty enough, the fact they make a point (spearheaded by Percival 'Ruler of Whitestone' de Rolo) to give a monopoly on the use of the recently-invented firearms to the ruling oligarchies of Tal'Dorei (and that this is presented as a good thing narratively) really fucked up if you think about it lmao.

It is kind of fucked up! I think it's also not necessarily presented as a good thing so much as an attempt at mitigation. Percy is certain that guns are the worst thing he ever came up with and Ripley explicitly spread the idea to drive him mad! And given that she was kicked out of Wildemount, I highly doubt she was selling them to the upper classes but most likely to the Clasp, Myriad, etc.. It's likely (and yes, still fucked up) that Percy sought to try to limit guns to ruling systems specifically to counter that... probably missing how those guns could then be used to abuse and intimidate a populace.

That said... it's not like magic can't do that already? Or that magic isn't used that way already? See the Cerberus Assembly and the Volstruckers, see how the Arcana Pansophical restricts dangerous magic. See how Vasselheim restricts arcane magic for the sheer damage it can cause and danger it poses, instead turning to religious authority!

There's kind of a lot of complicated, messy - and yeah, flawed! - responses to problems and significant events throughout Exandria and I do think we're meant to chew on them. Vox Machina was originally intended just as a home game, it has it's problems from that as a personal game for people who knew what world they were playing in and who wanted to toy with tropes. I don't think it was necessarily intended to be scrutinised by so many. But I also don't think that every flaw is only a flaw.

After all, with how guns are spreading, warfare could well involve firearms, the next time a war is started, and that will very much put paid to any idea that Percy's attempts to restrict and limit guns were good or fruitful. The problem with guns is that, once the idea is out in the world people will have them, and a gun is only good for hurting. That's the thesis of Percy's character! "What kind of person would make guns, why, and could they ever be redeemed or forgiven for the horror they've unleashed on the world?"

As fans, obviously many of us want Percy to be redeemed. We like when our blorbos do better. But the unhappy truth is that, while Percy may grow and improve and try to mitigate damage... what's done is done. The question is if we blame what happens then on Percy, for inventing them, or on the people with their own agency, who use them.

So yeah! It's fucked up that the guns have been spread into Exandria! It's fucked up that the two main groups in possession of them seem to be criminals (who will use them for crime) or governments (who may use them for national defence, but will probably also use them for things that only aren't called crimes because it's under the governments orders). It's fucked up that the general populace have limited options for self-protection.

And I think that the class backgrounds of Vox Machina (and of Ripley, given the importance of guns in this discussion) are very useful for informing why characters made the choices they did, flawed and fucked up as they are.

Campaign one isn't really as politics-oriented as Campaign two and it's more of a standard-ish high fantasy (there's a reason why every character in Vox Machina is basically just an archetype. The horny bard, the preachy druid, the sneaky rogue, the smashy smashy bloodknight Barbarian, etc. Don't get me wrong, they go a long way in reconstructing all of these archetypes but still), and what I'm about to say isn't really a criticism of the story or the characters all that much, I love them and I love it... but like,

Out of Vox Machina's Eight... Vex and Vax are both Elven aristocracy. Sure, they had to deal with prejudice from their community (in the Game) and an abusive father (in the Show, and to a slightly lesser degree, in the Game) but their station as born into the aristocracy is something even the prejudiced Syngorn elves recognise. Grog is part of the Herd of Storm's ruling class and left the Herd specifically because of moral reasons. Keyleth's father is the closest thing the Air Ashari have to royalty. Percy is the funniest and most egregious here because he's literally royalty. His family, ruling the independent city-state of Whitestone for thousands of years, were so horrible at it that their own staff conspired to violently and brutally murder them when a demon worshipper and her vampire trophy husband showed up and said "hey you wanna help us murder and usurp the De Rollos?". And Tiberius leaves the campaign before this actually becomes plot relevant and tbh it's really more of a Campaign 2 thing but Tiberius, while not part of any royal or aristocratic group, is still part of the privileged class in his own society.

In fact, out of Vox Machina's core seven, only Pike and Scanlan are neither part of nor directly related to (and able to utilise) the ruling oligarchies somewhere in Tal'Dorei by birth. Hell, while Scanlan's very explicitly "his family was poor and he grew up in abject poverty", even Pike is upper-middle class, kinda.

So, and sorry if this doesn't sound leftisty enough, the fact they make a point (spearheaded by Percival 'Ruler of Whitestone' de Rolo) to give a monopoly on the use of the recently-invented firearms to the ruling oligarchies of Tal'Dorei (and that this is presented as a good thing narratively) really fucked up if you think about it lmao.

[luna-the-cretar]

VM vs M9 is so fucking funny, actually.

The M9’s dead friend (bc it’s Molly, not Kingsley) is suddenly brought back and is as powerful as Lucien (who was a bitch for them to fight, even before Aeor), and none of them bat a fucking eye. If anything, Beau seemed somewhat ANNOYED that it was Molly and not Caduceus (which…fair, but he’s been proving himself so far, so)

Also, neither of the clerics actually clericing

Also, Fjord almost dying immediately (which makes me think that it might’ve been a good thing that Caleb isn’t in this fight, bc he’d be dead within the first round lmao)

Also, just…everything about it. I didn’t realize just how much I missed some of these chucklefucks until I started this episode. I literally have not stopped smiling, and I’m only halfway through.

[blorbologist]

💀📖 (book can be an episode or arc if you wanna do CR!)

💀: If you had to choose one major character to die, who would you choose?

Out of all of VM, Vax was the lynchpin of the party and really the perfect one to die IMO. I will stand on the hill that VM would have half the weight it does if Vax hadn't had to leave with the Raven Queen at the end.

But maybe that's hindsight talking - if we're talking non-canon permadeath, I think an AU where Scanlan stayed dead (refusing revival, instead of blowing up after the fact) could have been a fascinating turning point for VM! You get the 'oh shit this is no longer a joke' that Bard's Lament offered, but... tbh I don't feel like that episode is the big change to VM some people consider it to be? Like yes, Tary shows up, and the party starts checking in on everyone a smidge more and there is some angsting (mostly on Percy and Pike's end iirc)... but it's nowhere near the trajectory change that Molly's death had on the M9. Scanlan being gone-gone, and there being no chance of reconciliation, would absolutely rock a VM who so far have been able to save everyone that mattered to them far sooner and with far more finality. I could see the year break being less a thing of 'hey we're done our to-do list and can chill now' and more 'hey do we even fucking want to do this anymore? when our friend died in a puddle of piss?' Kill their Molly, except with more bad blood.

📖: If you had to remove one book arc from the series, which would you choose?

... okay this IS the unpopular opinion game. Preface: I can't really discern any clear arcs in C3 like I can in C1 or C2. This is mostly because they have huge overarching goals ('Treshi plot', 'Preparing for moon' and 'Da Moon' is how it feels to me) which the characters really... don't make much clear progress towards during most of those long arcs? (Vs, say, the Vecna arc, where you have the initial discovery, then that bad fight, collecting trammels, etc.). Not to say that the other campaigns didn't have their own meandering arcs - Tary arc comes to mind - but it's... really hard to figure out what I'd cut out when my instinctive answer is 'so fucking much, IDK what anything is contributing to any goals/wholes anymore'.

BUT the curing Keyleth mini-arc irritated the hell out of me for little discernable reason and I'd like it Gone Please.

Ask me about my unpopular opinions!

[revvethasmythh]

I am a lonely wife, ailing away, staring out a window wondering when my husband (VM vs M9 Battle Royale 2, where Sam gets to switch off as Veth and Tary) will return from the sea

[utilitycaster]

Hi, I'm the anon who wrote to you a few days ago about feeling conflicted about Beau and Caleb's involvement, and while I would probably prefer a story closer to M9 you are right that this isn't where we are now. However, once C3 is over I think it would be interesting to compare the pacing and plot structure in all 3 campaigns, not to decide who is better, but to see what the strengths and weaknesses are for each.

Hey anon! Thanks, and for what it's worth this was not really in response to you and more about some stuff I'd seen floating around elsewhere (and to be honest the fact that I'd said similar things during the Whitestone stuff); I think you voiced your feelings in a way that was respectful and understandable! And I share your feelings that I do prefer a Nein-style campaign, and this is me talking about the story in Ebert "is it achieving what it sets out to do" terms.

I agree it would be interesting to compare across campaigns! I do think a lot of this all comes down to personal preference; I also think that audience expectations have been a major factor (ie, people expecting a VM-style plot were disappointed in the Nein; people such as myself who enjoyed the style of the Nein campaign taking quite some time to come around to the very different structure of Bells Hells). And, more generally, I think this kind of comparison is good to think about regarding actual play at large; so many discussions about the "correct" type of campaign miss that. I've been thinking about it a lot in relation to Worlds Beyond Number, given that everyone in it is a D20 veteran and D20's contained, shorter style vs. WBN's intended long-form campaign style are often considered to be at odds, rather than different but valid choices.