#ultimately these are just made-up characters

[teambyler]

Will's suffering and search for happiness (not Milkvan) are what what the show has built up from the beginning and have to resolve in Season 5

It would oversell it to say "Will has been the center of the story all along." I'd say, yes, in s1 his kidnapping instigated everything, and in s2 he was a focus but probably on equal terms with El. And we all know in s3 and s4 he was a minor character in the grand scheme of things.

No, that's not the point: it's that Will has been the emotional core of the story from the beginning. He was the one the show made to suffer in ways that hit us in the gut, that trigger our own childhood fears and our instinct to protect.

A child who's kidnapped and alone and dies (s1)...

A child who's possessed and tortured (s2)...

A teenager distraught at growing up his childhood and his friends (s3)...

A teenager who thinks "he'll never find love" (s4)...

WILL is the one character that viewers most want to wish the best for. This is not to discount other characters and their arcs. Max's trauma is definitely the most intense and focused-on in s4. El dealing with her trauma has had more screen time. But El has superpowers, and we're already at least midway through her journey of finding empowerment. Max went through major breakthroughs in her own arc. But Will has been "held back" and simply made to suffer through the first 4 seasons.

This means that Will's pain and joy have to be the emotional focus of season 5. There's kind of no other writing reason for his journey to have been portrayed this way. The sources of his trauma - antigay bullying from his dad and the people of Hawkins, and his victimization by the Upside Down - have yet to be processed and dealt with by him, whereas El and Max have gone through much of their journeys.

Milkvans like to say that Mike and El's relationship "has been built up for four seasons." Actually, what has been built up more, from the VERY START of the show when Will was KIDNAPPED, and what has gradually and methodically been built up through the seasons, has been Will's victimization and his right to be happy.

Will being the emotional center of s5 was confirmed by what the Duffers told Variety:

This quote strongly suggests that Will finds a way to be a hero. In s1 and s2 he was a passive victim, as Vecna's target. s3 and s4 were about him learning to internally cope with real-life horrors. The symmetry of Will being targeted again by his tormentors but somehow taking control in s5, (perhaps through his qualities of selflessness and love that he's been taught to hate about himself), is just soooo natural. In a show that sides with the freaks and the outcasts, a suffering, traumatized gay boy finding power would be the ultimate way to express the show's mission statement. We may very well see "Hawkins' ultimate outcast be its hero."

And Byler fans have every reason to assume that Will's potential relationship with Mike is central to this! There are TWO Chekhov's Guns -- the Painting Lie, and Will coming out to Mike -- that have to fire!

The series has built up to this from the beginning: Season 5 has to be about Will's pain and finding love.

-teambyler

[crimsoncold]

Have to include prev's tags above in their entirety because it brings up some really relevant points...

Now just to expand a bit on this idea of paralells between characters (specifically the hotly debated one of paralells/connections between Lyanna and any of the stark kids)...

Sometimes to appreciate the full intent of an author one has to analyze the material beyond just what is explicity said by the characters in the story...

Characters often should be seen as unreliable narrators as unlike the author/readers they have limits with what they can know both about events occuring in the story and about the people around them (or even to an extent about themselves).

This is particularly true when considering the opinion/perspective of a character who dies so early on in a series. So I don't think we should decide to take Ned as the ultimate arbitrator of what characters have similarities/paralells to Lyanna.

First, because he died before many major (and in this case relevant) events in the series occured and the lived experience, arcs, or even personality of his rather young children are certainty not going to remain the same as they were before his death and all the other horrible/tragic events of asoiaf (i.e. he's not even around anymore to see or comment on the ways his children's experiences/lives may serve to paralell that of his siblings or even his own... readers will have to use other sources- like the overall story itself- to evaluate these connections)

Secondly, because unlike with Arya, Ned doesn't seem to have much interest in connecting with, understanding, or simply even trying to empathize with his own daughter when it comes to Sansa (i.e. the Lyanna and Rickard of it all when it comes to Ned and Sansa) and he's likely not the best judge of character when it comes to Sansa (beyond the obvious superficial ways she currently had differed from the sons/daughter whose personality and interests Ned can more easily understand).

As well as because, likely due to the unaddressed trauma and grief around their tragic deaths and the dangerous secret Ned harbors related to Jon's parentage, he doesn't seem willing to speak much of or even willingly think about of his late family and thus wouldn't necessarily be a great source for a reader on the ways his children/nephew may resemble his parent's, his siblings, or even himself.

So keeping in mind that...

Parallels between characters can be made apparent and significant in ways other than simply explicit remarks made by someone in the story regarding the similarities between two characters.

That there isn't a limit to the number of characters one can be similar to/parallel or even act as a foil to.

And most importantly that parallels can take on many different forms, including things like physical appearance/description, personality, behaviour, background, symbolism, their lived experiences, their arcs/character development, etc.

...it becomes clear that the story itself supports the idea that readers should see parallels between a character like Lyanna and mutliple of her nieces/nephews or even her son.

There being some differences in certain areas (say physical description or personality) does not negate the ability of an author to make meaningful parallels between characters. Its feels more than fair/accurate to conclude that despite their often commented on differences both stark sisters are meant to have paralells to their Aunt Lyanna as well as to both Ned and Catelyn and most significantly to eachother!!!

Do you think Sansa is connected to the winter rose and lyanna? As in do you think there are meaningful parallels going on ?

I don't think there are intentional parallels between Sansa and Lyanna. Ned flat up says a) that Arya reminds him of Lyanna and b) Arya and Sansa are very different people. Ergo, Sansa and Lyanna are unlikely to have been similar in personality.

But that doesn't mean there isn't anything useful in comparing the two anyway. The intersection of patriarchy, feudalism, and the desire for romantic love obviously features in both their stories. Because the author's built a solid world and explored these themes consistently, there's more to his work and his characters than he might initially have intended. That's the merit of the gardening approach - it grows.

[archivalofsins]

I'm doing Mikoto and Amane together since Amane's thing is just a reiteration of what was said with Shidou and Mahiru,

So, let's start with Amane,

"Prisoner No. 008: Amane Momose. Your judgement was “innocent”, and as such, her ideas were affirmed. Hehehe, she truly did outdo herself, really messed with the situation. She murdered Shidou because his actions went against her beliefs. Because of the death of Shidou, she also caused the death of Mahiru. What a little brat we’ve got! Maybe that’s the reason for her success. She’s even promulgated her religious views. We could even call it, Amane-ism, this religion she’s created. It’s perfectly suited to MILGRAM. She’s successfully made Futa a believer. So, what will you do now, Es?"

I love how Jackalope states that Amane's new religion is perfectly suited for Milgram. Because sir what? It is? That makes me really curious about what her religion entails for Jackalope to make such a bold claim.

The commencement notice is also harping on how much damage Amane has caused and continuing the trend of displaying her as a threat. Jackalope keeps this same energy with Mikoto as well. Now one could say they're doing this in order to pull the rug from beneath our feet later but I doubt it.

This is the last trial through how Jackalope discussed the deaths of Haruka, Shidou, and Mahiru it seems Milgram is diving right in to how all of the audiences assumptions and shows of good faith have enabled the situation it currently finds itself is. It is tempting to double down but ultimately what the prisoners do with the lives they live are their business and we can't stop anyone in fiction or in reality from living how they wish to live.

Unless one were to stop them from living entirely. Now I'm not going to highroad anyway and say it's important to be the bigger person and live and let live. That would be disingenuous. I have no defense for Amane killing Shidou other than the fact that I don't particularly care that she did that because she told us she was going to do that and I voted with that outcome in mind.

I know shocking some people do choose how they're going to vote while taking into full consideration the consequences making that statement can have. Instead of coming up with a myriad of excuses later when it doesn't go the way they want because they just couldn't fearmonger hard enough or hold a fictional characters life over other people's heads well enough.

Sometimes and most times people should before they give their input reflect on how helpful that might be to the person they are giving the input to or themselves. Possibly reflect on if saying anything at all is the right course of action for them personally. Simply so they don't end up doing something that they can't take back and will regret.

I'm not going to do mental gymnastics to defend the murder of a fictional character who was also a murderer or excuse the deaths of those characters. I'm just gonna do what's the best thing for me personally which is vote and behave how I want to in my best interests until this ends.

Amane isn't the first person to attack someone within this prison. She won't be the last sure her attack was the only one that killed someone causing the death of another involved party in the process. Yet I'm pretty sure a lot of people don't care about the details of how the second death occurred and will take this caused Mahiru's death as Milgram stating Amane went up and stabbed Mahiru too.

See look that middle-schooler is evil and should be burned at the stake on some Backdraft shit,

Count me out I'm not dealing with that energy in 2025 if that's how some people want to spend their time behaving I hope it works out for them. I hope that brings them joy but that is not how I want to spend the last trial of Milgram. A lot of people in this fandom need to mature and recognize that they are not just a safe space for others simply because they say they are.

Also that maybe harping on the youngest person here for being a bad individual who committed murder like everyone else here then going in other cases that's a minor is odd. It's weird. That makes some people some weirdos. I'm sick of hearing about this hat girl and Mu's case where people bring age constantly but then dogpile on someone younger than both of those people. Simply because her bad actions actually impacted them.

Because they lost something from it. It doesn't matter that everyone else here has killed someone. Has also killed kids and admitted from day one. Because those victims don't exist in the eyes of the audience as people so they don't matter. Their lives don't matter because they aren't characters who entertained the audience that the audience grew attached to.

Those characters are just side characters nameless faceless unimportant dead side characters. They are just bodies to set the scene. Speaking of which let's go into Mikoto now.

Let me tell you they learned from last trial on showing more than two of these guys with how the fandom tried to spin that. Because they flipped that bitch like a coin they are not playing anymore.

They split that first one in half and turned that shit over. The front and the backside is right.

"Prisoner No. 009: Mikoto Kayano. Your judgement was “innocent”, and as such, his ideas were affirmed. Hmmm...... What a change from before, so coy! Such a disappointment! I was thinking he’d show us another rampage. It is so boring when one has to go without.... He’s like a shell of a person. He’s been found “innocent”, even after butchering all those people. Doesn’t it make him happy? I wonder why? Maybe he lost something precious?"

"Why, hey why, I’m nowhere to be found?"/ "Just the two of us, relieved, aren’t you? I’ll protect you (us)."

Mikoto Voice Line 3

Mikoto: It’s like something’s disappeared from inside me, and I’m… I’m scared. I’m tired. I just want this to stop. All of it.

"He’s like a shell of a person."

Mikoto Voice Line 1

Mikoto: Kayano Mikoto. I think. That’s who I am, right…?"

"I’m DOUBLE (MeMe)."

Mikoto Voice Line 1 continued,

Mikoto: Ahaha, you’re probably wondering what I’m talking about."

So, I'm downright loving this to be honest.

"I wonder why?"/ "Why?"

"I just want this to stop. All of it."

Fuck it let's do Kotoko too,

"Prisoner No. 010: Kotoko Yuzuriha. Your judgement was “guilty”, and as such, her ideas were rejected. There, you see? I made sure she’s carefully constrained so she wouldn’t wreck havoc. Your fangs... her vigilante justice wasn’t imparted, right? What? Are things different now? It almost makes me feel sorry for her, being at the mercy of your whims...... Obviously, she now views you as her enemy. Don’t think for a moment that you can now communicate with her effectively. "

"But, I must say, the current situation within this prison is directly influenced by the fact that she was once found “innocent”. "

"Evil done against evil, can that ever be justified......? Go on and settle the matter to your satisfaction."

In all things Jackalope remains fair I said it earlier while watching through the video still and I'm glad he hit the nail on the head. The first domino that lead to all of this was Kotoko. All from those first verdicts. It didn't hit us fully until we were almost at the end of the road but the repercussions for everything the audience has said, all its enabled, all it was able to turn a blind eye to.

It's all coming back around now.

"......hehehe. I did tell you, MILGRAM allows for sensibility, morality, ethics, legality, preference, taste, or sexual inclination as the basis for judgement. You really did act in accordance with that. That makes me so happy. And the result is this. Take a look at the prison. What do you think, Es? Do you think you’ve been able to carry out your standards within this prison?"

"Can you really say that you were able to find “innocent” the ones you truly wanted to forgive, and find “guilty” the ones you truly wanted to punish? What? It’s not something to shy away from. Take pride! This is your prison, those feelings that you carry and all."

This prison will happen just once, and it was chosen by you all. If it wasn’t for all of you, the results would have been different, I’m sure. Well now, is it not just beautiful, Es?"

Jackalope and Milgram once again showcasing if the audience and Es did not engage the situation would have been different.

"I am just enthralled by this prison that you all have created. Teeheehee...... hehehe...... Let us now enjoy MILGRAM until it’s finale together, shall we?"

I would be remiss to not point out this looks similar to the light we see in Double at 1:48,

To touch on Jackalope's question real quick,

"Can you really say that you were able to find “innocent” the ones you truly wanted to forgive, and find “guilty” the ones you truly wanted to punish?"

I can't say for certain if there was one right answer for any of the prisoners. However I can say through everything in Milgram I made the decisions I believed in wholeheartedly. Regardless of if they lead to the outcome I wanted or not is irrelevant. I am happy to have been able to have enjoyed and been involved with this once in a lifetime media experience.

I don't know how it will resolve of course and I have been let down in some regards but would I say I regret being involved with it at all at this point? No. I will continue to enjoy the prisoners being the most of themselves until Milgram draws to a close those that are still here now and those that are no longer here.

But I didn't like the subtle implication that the prisoners were dead or going to die before this occurred. Mostly because why even have us vote on any of this at this point. Furthering that implication just makes it feel like a non-issue. I'm also just not particularly interested in stories with that sort of twist. When stories have done things like they were dead from the start or not real twists I just feel like it's taken away the weight of certain points retroactively.

Since from the beginning we were told to vote as though we were choosing whether to let them back into society or not I always liked that framing more. That sort of plot point would really make me go so the deaths in Milgram don't matter and should not impact the decisions on the prisoners still here because they're all dead anyhow so what's the point on harping how they died a second time.

You get what I mean. If it is that I'll be disappointed like with Mahiru but if it is that then no one can really hold anyone dying within Milgram over anybody else's head because they were all dead when they got here at that point. So, what does it matter?

There's a time in the commencement notice when Jackalope is speaking of Mahiru that implies this,

"Well now, don’t get down on yourself. As I’ve said many times, they are all already goners. It’s not a huge point of concern whether they live here or not."

Along with this imagery as well,

Though it doesn't have to mean that it did make my ears perk up. Because there's two ways this go they could all be dead which would be boring for me. Or like the ending implies they are all about to die regardless. Because the ending of the commencement notice shuffles through scenes from milgram with all the characters taken out of them.

So maybe regardless of the last trial verdicts the prisoners are still slated to be executed which would explain why Jackalope is being so flippant about the deaths. As well as why there was no new point added onto this trial. He didn't say if you vote them guilty they're gonna die and if you vote them innocent we'll spare them. No talk on how it would impact things after this just said well let's enjoy it before it's all,

Over,

"Let us now enjoy MILGRAM until it’s finale together, shall we?"

[Route: Your (Curtain) Call]

For all of them.

"They are all already goners."

Side note this thumbnail was sick as hell he looks so mad~ But he's so thrilled in the video.

[suosage]

visited keel arc's resolution chapters while i went looking for akari's panel and ough wbr's portrayal of the "ooh hes just like me fr" effect is so so good im never getting over it...

i remember seeing a post saying winbre's characters are so similar it's boring, what's the point to see their developments if they're gonna end up resolving the same problem anyway, and I was like oh. I was so taken aback by this I never thought it that way. I always knew that the characters share similar problems in various ways, but I never thought of it as boring or pointless. in fact, that may just be the point of the entire thing...?

i just think that winbre ultimately is sakura's coming-of-age story. we delve a lot into other characters yes and each had their own key pivotal moments that makes me think yes this is their story, but they're not Not about sakura too. he's not a part of their pasts, but he could see himself in these stories. it's important that sakura acknowledged this—because it's easy to brush it off. it's easy to ignore the uncomfortable truth about yourself when you see it in another person. even when he knew it's hard even if sometimes he needed his friends to push him to, sakura has learned to always face it head-on. he made this choice, and it's an important step that let him grow as a person.

it's this thing that I believe what wbr is trying to tell us about: you always, always have the choice to heal. to be better, and to be kind. even if it's hard. (maybe especially if it's hard!)

that the characters faced similar conflicts in some ways is a good thing. it's intentional. it's saying you're more alike with others than you might think and maybe you could learn a thing or two from them; and even if not, maybe that fact is a lesson in and of itself. regardless you can always choose to face your problems and learn from others and be kind. the hope is that maybe, through acknowledging parts of yourself you recognize in other people, you could be kinder to yourself, too.

[purpleinfluenced]

Sometimes I see people saying the sect leaders could not have protected the Wen remnants while still putting the blame on someone. More often than not, it’s what they vaguely refer to as “The Cultivation World” or in even broader terms, “Society”. And I don’t necessarily disagree, I do believe their society is corrupt, but these people being coddled by the fandom are sect leaders, they have the highest authority in their society. If there is anyone who would have the influence to make a major change, who else would it be but the ones in power?

“You can’t blame the sect leaders! They were powerless! Blame the society instead!” But aren’t they part of that society too? Aren’t they the ones with the highest status and the most power in their society? This is just my personal opinion, but saying the sect leaders were simply powerless against society just doesn’t do it for me. Not when they are the ones in charge. Especially when they are referring to Jiang Cheng, Lan Xichen, and Nie Mingjue, the leaders of great clans. And sometimes the criticism is instead focused on these unnamed/briefly mentioned cultivators who only appear once in the story, which apparently proves how the sect leaders could do nothing against them? Don’t get me wrong, I do see them as an issue as well, but these random disciples ultimately hold little power in comparison to the sect leaders who make the decisions they have to follow in the end. It’s just hard to take these criticisms of the society in MDZS seriously when everyone but the sect leaders with larger roles to play are being held accountable.

And I do think this fandom tends to overstate the power the Jin Clan had after the war in order to take the responsibility away from the other sect leaders as well. If it’s not the society at fault, it’s all on Jin Guangshan. While it is true that the Jin Clan was doing better than the other clans after the Sunshot Campaign, I think the fandom saw the Jin Clan being accused of trying to become the next Wens and they mistakenly assume that it meant the Jins were already at that point. They were trying, but they weren’t as powerful yet. However, if the other sect leaders continue to go along with everything they do, thus giving the Jins more power and authority over time, the Jin Clan will reach that point eventually.

Also just in case: I despise Jin Guangshan, fuck that guy. It’s just really common, however, for Jin Guangshan to be used as a way to downplay the role other characters had to play in the events leading up to the First Siege and ignoring the choices they made themselves.

the myth of helplessness and the “hands-tied” rhetoric for authority figures in mdzs

i’m pretty sure every one of us has seen this notion echoed around for atleast one of the clan/sect leaders when it came to their compliance and/or active participation in the wen remnants’ genocide as well as their prior lack of help/refuge for the wen remnants once wei wuxian had rescued them. while this goes beyond just the way the cultivation world’s leaders handled the aftermath of the sunshot campaign (namely, their lackadaisical approach to helping civilians, exploiting those weaker than them, etc.), i’ll start with the genocide because that’s the crux of it all. that’s the nail in the coffin, that’s the biggest proof of why i feel so fucking angry whenever i see this sentiment of excusing/justifying/or even explaining why the sect leaders did what they did.

and like most skewed interpretations of mdzs (and i don’t mean this in a haughty superior way of only MY way of reading the text being THE right way but i feel like this is something we all have noticed after traversing the fandom waters for a while), this too begins with jiang cheng.

now, let me clear: jiang cheng, in full sobriety and clarity of thought, led the siege of the burial mounds to kill a group of innocent people, which included elderly women and men and a child. you would think this should be obvious but i’ll retierate: NOTHING justifies this, nothing excuses this. the same applies to every single sect leader and sect affiliated member who went for the siege that day and participated in the killings, whether directly or indirectly. this isn’t a nuanced situation and i personally feel that a discussion that begins with the premise of muddying the culpability of the people involved in the genocide shouldn’t even be entertained because the reasons do not matter. they just don’t. it doesn’t matter that nie mingjue’s personal philosophy stemming from his upbringing and loss gave him a narrowminded view of the “wen-dogs”. it doesn’t matter that jiang cheng was sunken in grief and rage after losing his sister. it doesn’t matter that the lans were convinced of wei wuxian’s deviousness and found it paramount to put an end to him and his affialites. it doesn’t matter that some were operating on half the information because when you march into the temporary residence of your supposed foes and kill them all in cold-blood despite them being unarmed and untrained—the weight of ensuring that your violence has a meaning, a justification is on YOU! if you’re committing this act, you have to make sure you aren’t being led blindly by manipulating rumors and ideals.

even before the genocide, before the nightless city massacre, before the qiongqi path ambush—the way i’ve seen handwaving of jiang cheng’s mindset regarding the wens is a little baffling. “he had the burden of being a sect leader” “he had to protect his clan, his hands were tied!” jiang cheng wielding power and authority are often repackaged as baggage that his poor self is so tragically saddled with. it genuinely puzzles the shit out of me. have we all forgotten about “with great power comes great responsibility”?? jiang cheng’s responsibility as a cultivation sect leader goes beyond just the immediate thought about his sect and towards the cultivation world as a whole and how injustice was taking place by a fellow prominent clan. we know this is extremely important because the whole reason the sunshot campaign happened and why it came down to a war was because of prior negligence by the clans towards the congregation of power by the wens. to recognise the same methods now being employed by the jins was, infact, part of jiang cheng’s responsibility. just saving your own neck doesn’t work, when the larger picture is considered. besides, giving the wens the backing of the jiang clan would NOT have brought down instant doom upon the jiangs. that was the whole point. that was why jin guangshan felt it necessary to put ideas into his head and lead him to a path of hostility towards wei wuxian (which is still a choice jiang cheng made, mind).

also, while we’re at it, you’re telling me that the jiang clan rebuilt in part due to wei wuxian’s insane gravitational pull towards aspiring cultivators, would NOT have stood behind wei wuxian if jiang cheng had only tried? hell, i would go far as to say that some jiang disciples would have WANTED to join wei wuxian’s side. there was risk. there would be trouble. but that doesn’t mean jiang cheng had no option. the path of least resistance leads the crooked men, does it not? besides, being a leader is not about tucking tail and keeping your head down. it’s about making the difficult choices and yes, for jc, in this scenario, refusing to help the wens and wei wuxian was the easy choice.

also this whole myth about the sect leaders not being able to do anything because their clans would become targets is sort of antithetical to the whole premise of them being sect leaders in the first place. they’re the only ones who can do something with comparatively less risk to their person and those they’re “protecting” because they have the power of organisation. if the holders of authority cannot make decisive lines in the sand and push for change and resist, who can? the disciples or civilians would have an easier time opposing the clans individually or in groups, you think? they would have less to lose? (we already have an example in the form of mianmian; the waves had to be made from the top in this time-sensitive situation).

these fanon tropes originate from somewhere i know. it’s interesting to think of how these authority figures perceive their power as burdens, how the prince doesn’t want to become king but is forced into the role, how inheritances, even the ones that favour you, can feel like shackles around your neck.

but this kind of sympathetic view of the antagonists and the wrong-doers in mdzs leaves a bitter taste in my mouth because time and again, we have been shown how these sect leaders are blissfully happy to reap the fruits of their inherited power and generational wealth and are the ones most protected by the system. jiang cheng was perfectly fine being the sect leader by default and his grievance was moreso that wei wuxian wasn’t around to be his subordinate. the less that is said about jin guangshan the better. even lan xichen’s troubles didn’t come from him holding power but from his prolonged semi-wilful ignorance regarding jin guangyao. nie mingjue, while alive, used his influence to make his voice heard and condemned the wens because that was his unshakeable opinion on the matter.

now, this isn’t to say all the sect leaders were the same brand of callous and incompetent. yes, they had their problems. yes, their positions didn’t automatically make them immune to harm. but they were not the poor little burdened leaders with “pragmatic” point of views, trying to keep their boats afloat.

the ones with their hands tied were these: the lower classes in the pyramid. the ones who relied on the clans for shelter and food. the civilians whose requests for help were denied by the cultivation sects. the wen remnants who couldn’t do anything to save themselves. wen qing and wen ning. wei wuxian, whose every avenue of help was closed. mianmian. and even, imo, lan wangji.

there’s another similar notion towards wei wuxian that because he was a subordinate and because he has lesser social standing, he had more “freedom”. what ass-backwards logic is this, to be honest? when has having lesser social status, political power and monetary resources given a person more freedom? more freedom would mean that wei wuxian could do anything he wanted and go unquestioned. more freedom would mean that he would be able to practice the ghostly path without every second person accusing him of demonic activities. you know who had more freedom? the nie sect! their resentful energy dabbling went unquestioned because they had more freedom, they were protected by the reputation and might of their clan. nie mingjue’s hypocritical stance went unquestioned because he had freedom, precisely because he had more power. wei wuxian having a big personality, being flirtatious and not being a picture-perfect version of properness (he had good manners regardless) is not having more freedom. if he had that personality and no one accused him of being arrogant and if it wasn’t used against him as means to sully his reputation, then yes, that would be true freedom. this last part is probably redundant but hope the point of it was relayed. just because wei wuxian’s able to authentically be himself despite the backlash he receives for it does not make his social standing somehow a more advantageous position to be in compared to the literal leaders of the cultivation world.

in conclusion, the sect leaders did not have their hands tied by some inherent circumstance, their thrones of power were not ill-begotten curses they were trying to escape from but all the tying was done by them and their ropes which they gleefully tied around the necks of the wens to silence them forever. and if that sentence makes you uncomfortable, great. because that’s the reality of what these people did.

[morningfangirl]

Overall I did like The Fish and the Whale as an episode, but I really think the poker plot outshined the baby shower plot... and maybe not in the way people think.

The Brad voice over was giving Contemporary American Poultry which as a Community fan I was here for and it seems a lot of people really enjoyed it. The poker storyline overall was really well done from Brad to David to even Ian. All three were acting as foils to each other with how they deal with their canonical shitty childhoods in adulthood. Like Ian bringing up his father abusing him and then David just being like that's irrelevant was great. Also, Ian starting to get annoyed that David didn't know Poppy hated her sister and then getting distracted by trying to get a dig in at David was really funny.

Which brings me of course to the Poppy plot of the episode. I feel like this part of the episode was a bit more stereotypical sitcom than most episodic storylines that MQ does. The scene that was released ahead of the episode was Tracy showing up at the baby shower, so I thought we might get an insight into why Poppy is on bad terms with her family as an adult because Sarian made it seem like Poppy's parents just didn't really understand her (which is not uncommon with how her character is neurodivergent coded) and her and her sister just had nothing in common so they felt pitted against each other for their mom's approval. Like in terms of set design, there are pictures from Sarian bts of young Poppy, Tracy, and their dad when Poppy tells Storm she is pregnant in Second Skeleton.

Also, like Mythic Quest has had really great internal consistence, and the Jo-Poppy-Rachel dynamic did not seem quite consistent with Crushing It. Like Rachel and Dana were at Storm's gallery opening in Boundaries. Although, I did think it was funny having Rachel question if Poppy had any kind of social life (which leads me to the question of how did Poppy, who prior to this season only had a work life, meet Storm?).

There just didn't seem to be any internal logic for Tracy to fly halfway across the world just to be a bitch to her pregnant sister? I feel like it would have been more satisfying for Tracy to have been a normal person who gained her parents approval when Poppy dropped out of college who is now trying to be a good sister but ultimately lashing out because Poppy never grew out of being, in her eyes, a "freakazoid" and that's when Rachel, Jo, Carol, and Dana jump into Poppy's defense. Having Tracy think Poppy was the problem with their relationship only to have it turned back on her. The Poppy-Tracy storyline just was not as revealing in terms as backstory as I would have liked and did not really build onto Sarian. It just felt like Tracy was a little too much like Zack but without the emotional depth/rationalization. Like in Breaking Brad, it is clear that Zack is continuing a cycle of abuse and genuinely has the sociopathic & narcissistic traits Brad uses as a mask in the first two seasons. But I felt like Tracy was very one-dimensional which seems out of character for the show.

[gayofthefae]

"everyone lost except Mike, who got to tell El he loved her" WRONG

And I won't even mention Byler or queerness a single time to prove it

Mike's goal with telling El he loves her was to WAKE HER UP, not make her win. Making her win was good that it happened but he was unaware of it and just wanted her to open her eyes. He expresses this as the first and last things he says to her on that table - before the ily and when he's crying after she fights Vecna.

He lost. Telling her he loves her was a tactic with a goal, which he failed at. She fought Vecna. That is HER success because it was HER goal. Winning was Mike's original goal but it changed as soon as she was in danger to getting her out of there when she was clearly choking.

He tells her he loves her. She doesn't wake up. He keeps going until it devolves into begging her to "fight", from what he previously said and asked of her at the top of the scene, meaning "fight to wake up/get those vines off you and come back to me because" as he said "I can't lose you". He is prioritizing her life over the fight here. Romantic. Nice. Something consistent to his character. In season 3, for example, he argues that defeating the mind flayer isn't worth exhausting her of her powers. Romantic of him to prioritize this way! Sweet! So we agree. His goal was to wake her up and bring her back to him.

Well, he failed. Did she ultimately wake up? Yes. Does it work when he intended it to? No. But does it work? Well, he says "fight!" And has a celebratory moment of saying "she's doing it" so....!

Still no. Honestly, I might be able to argue yes, but like every time the WRITERS made a point of proving that wrong. Because they made a point of including Mike continuing to beg her to wake up as she stayed in the void by choice. And furthermore, they made a point of absence. They made a point to show us that to also make a point of passing up the opportunity to show him succeeding.

They did not show her waking up like he wanted. So, with what we were provided onscreen, he failed. She did wake up technically, but by her choice at her timing. She fought Vecna with his help, but that was not his goal. That was hers. That is her success and hers only, it was established that his was her. Romantic.

But his actual goal, her waking up, came about completely unrelated to him. It would have been related had she gasped and opened her eyes immediately, but the stories were intertwined with intention to have her choose to stay, which also means she chooses when she returns. She was strengthened by his words. But she did not come back for them. She was made able to by them, maybe. But the timing was completely unrelated and voluntary of her accord, not him.

Which is why they didn't show us. Because yes, she is awake. But he didn't wake her. And the last we see of him, he is crying over what he thinks is her dying body, who is not waking up. Because he has lost. We see nothing beyond that before a two day time jump.

[amalthea-13]

The Octavia Dilemma (Vent/Rant Post)

TW: Divorce

I want to make it abundantly clear that this post is about myself and my feelings on Via. This does not reflect the greater fandom or all Stolas Stans.

This is a reflection of my feelings and my feelings alone. Do not utilize this post to generalize all Stolas Stans since many of them are going to agree with about 60% of my post and I'm fine with that.

Moving on,

Hello everyone! It is I, Amalthea, the Ultimate Stolas Kinnie and Stan, reporting to you live on a topic I was initially going to not talk about, but became more compelled to talk about since well- I didn't want to talk about Stella. (I'd rather not lol)

When it comes to Octavia and her rejecting Stolas I have very, very mixed feelings on the topic. While many of you may think she was right or wrong, I'm going to give you the perspective from a person who lived this stuff during my preteens.

I won't go into details, but my parental unit picked another person over my family. Parent A decided to pick Person C over Parent B and that will never not mess me up till this day.

When Parent A left, I was alone without the only thing I wanted, closure. I didn't understand why I was abandoned. I didn't understand how Parent A just thought I didn't matter anymore.

Parent B had to struggle and I just had to- watch morbidly as my world fell apart.

One of the things I absolutely can't agree with Octavia doing is walking away from Stolas when he came back to her.

She has this entire speech, victimizing herself solely(not faulting her for it, just stating it), and not asking the question why and that is where I will say the Hellaverse team failed. Kids of divorce always ask the question why. We seek a reason and yet Octavia just makes baseless accusations at Stolas that hold no water.

I mean your father, the man who has stood by your side, and loved on you for ages suddenly has an affair with a strange imp from his past and you don't even- think to ask why? Or let him explain?

Octavia willingly parentified herself to cope, which again as someone who is parentified, that makes no sense to me. Parentification happens when no one is around to help you or support you, but Octavia had her dad right fucking there. She rejected him, and seemingly can't understand he's depressed???

Again, I am speaking for myself, but this entire rant of hers makes no sense to me. She's seen him light up around Blitz, be more open (maybe to open), and be happier, but doesn't acknowledge it???

My issue, a reminder I am talking about myself , with Octavia is she makes everything solely about herself and asks no important questions about her father. I know she is a rich girl, but she is shown to be empathetic and kind overall, so it feels out of character she doesn't even- try to understand. Even if it's hard.

When Parent A came back into my life I begged for a reason why. Why the hell did you leave!? What did Person C have that I didn't!? Why did you raise their child you didn't birth but not me!? What did I do wrong!? What was so bad you left!?

None of these questions were asked, Octavia goes straight to making accusations which makes no sense. The fact she expected Blitz to die??? Like Loona wasn't going to be fatherless??? Like she's 17. Via is a bright and smart girl. Did she really look down on Blitz that much??? (genuine question, not tryna be a smart ass)

Octavia: You lied to me.

Stolas: What?

Octavia: *pushes Stolas away* You lied to me! You said you would never leave me! You promised!

Stolas: Via. I-I didn't leave you I-I- I would never, it wasn't my choice.

Octavia: It was your choice. You chose HIM!

I also think this whole scene is why Stolas made the choice he made. While he had an inclination he could die- he knew his privilege could possibly save him. It's why he was a bit confused and not sure of what was going to happen.

He was hanging onto the hope he'd not die. Afterwards the reality sets in as to what he had just done and what he truly lost. Stolas took a risk on a hunch.

The man had no choice. As a father, as a person, as a soulmate, he was in an impossible situation where he had to use his privilege. He had no other option or Loona would be fatherless.

Stolas: Via, no! I didn't I just- I had to. You don't understand.

Octavia: *clenches fist as magic forms* I do understand! I understand that we were never enough for you! You never loved mother, and you don't love me, you love him. *holds up happy pills* And you needed THESE! Was this my fault that you needed these?

Stolas: No! No, never Via! *grabs Octavia's hands* Sweetie, please. You have always been the only good thing in my life!

Octavia: So does that mean you just stayed miserable because of me? *tearing up* Was I some fucking obligation? Is that why you didn't even hesitate when you got a chance to leave?

This next part always pisses me off because Via's expectation of her father are so high. That he cannot have autonomy outside of their family. She is so attached at the hip to him that anytime he deviates from loving her entirely it is a slight against her.

Also the obligation part of that statement boils my blood, because girl- you don't even know what it is like to have your parent look at you and tell you to your face "you're just a responsibility to me". Because I lived that shit. I lived knowing Parent A didn't want me because I was just to much.

Stolas stayed and loved on this girl. He gave her the whole universe and more and somehow that isn't enough.

Of course I sympathize with the sentiment, but nothing in Stolas's behavior nor him being with Blitz suggests she was ever solely an obligation to him.

If Stolas truly viewed her as a responsibility he wouldn't show any concern for her. Parent A in my life acted distant and emotionally withdrawn. They didn't take care of me anymore, acting like a ghost of their former self. They took care of my most basiepc and fundamental needs while Octavia is borderline spoiled and-

FUCK why couldn't I have that!? She sits there and complains but her parent came back for her?! She had a chance at closure and denied it! What kid of divorce does that!? What person does that?!

I know I shouldn't have this much turmoil over this. I really shouldn't. If anything I should be sympathizing with her entirely. Theoretically I should hate Stolas, but I can't because I know what it's like to be guilted for choosing yourself! I know what it's like to be forced to feel bad for being depressed! It's why I love Stolas so much and understand him completely.

But when it comes to Via, the character who borderline mimics my trauma I just- can't fully empathize. I can rationalize her thinking and- understand where it may stem from, but it still leaves me aggravated and unsatisfied.

While I may be ranting and rambling at this point- I may just be projecting and it's why I said to not take this post as something to generalize the collective- but I am thoroughly dissatisfied with Octavia's writing.

So much of it tries to mimic divorce related trauma, but none of what she has been through would initiate such a response.

She hasn't been abandoned, her father is right there.

She isn't an obligation, all of her needs are met and she gets all she wants along with a nurturing environement.

She was enough for her father, he came back for her. If she wasn't enough he'd never come back.

All of the claims she makes are easily debunked with rational thinking and do not make sense when you have lived through divorce yourself. Again, I can be projecting, but FUCK I needed to vent about this.

It just feels like such a fickle iteration of what real divorce looks like for us.

Ask Box is Open ofc.

[kittynugg]

I made you some stuff

"TTHE AUDACITY WE FIOUND IT ITS REAL" IM FUCKING ROLLIN G THAT IS SO IN CHARACTER HBKVKBHKSJVJ

AND THE FUCKING FIRST ONE WITH THE AUTISM stan's just "noooo... no wayyyyy.." ford's just internally screeching "DIPPER WAS RIGHT" and stan continues just sarcastically denying it and this poor lady is waiting for him to shut the fuck up to recommend a psychiatrist and stan ushers ford away to show her the diagnosis papers he already has

you depicted like EXACTLY what i was going for with the mac n cheese btw. like. he's so petty about it "those fucking normal people.. eating at the table where its sanitary.." i was actually originally planning for him to reconsider eating on the floor because of sanitation because its ford we're talking but i ultimately decided against it because eating on the floor is comfortable and let the man be comfortable he's been through so much already and he's gonna go through mo- i mean whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat thats crazyyyyy did someone hear something

ford breakdown in the gift shop core 👏👏👏 again that is exactly what i pictured in my head writing that you done good tyrant you done good. he's just uhh,, adjusting. yeah. i dont think ford was a crybaby when he was a kid but you really gotta take into consideration that this man has just rubberbanded FIFTY FOUR years and just has to deal with that shit. i think it'll get better in time

he would absolutely just freeze against the nearest wall if there were too many other people in a room though. i feel like he's like mugman with his stage fright

like this is literally what i imagine he looks like

i think i drew that lil scene actually and didnt post it bc i didnt like it lemme dig it up for you in return for your art

yeah tysm for the art though i fucking love it man let me just

quick stimmy i doodled out. just for you

[solavellan--hell]

I understand your angle on the isolated inquisitor but I keep wondering: Thats only applicable if you don’t engage with any companions, no? I mean, even if we assume them as locked in the romantic solavellan, Inquisitor has to engage with at the very least Dorian in main quests and Dorian immediately displays warmth and understanding

So, I’m curious (gen): what do you think of Inquisitor’s loneliness being kind of a “bad ending” path as contrasted to being close to their friends? Sort of how Solas’ loneliness is juxtaposed to him staying close to his companions (both in DAI and in his own rebellion), the path he failed to choose? I’m also curious on your thoughts regarding how this juxtaposition mirrors his foiling of Rook whose bad ending is only applicable if they try to do everything alone

Thoughts thoughts! Have a nice day!

Thank you for the lovely question!! It was really fun to consider this perspective and I always love Pondering the Inquisitor’s character and narrative existence!

First, yes, the Inquisitor does engage with their companions (in different levels depending on the individual playthrough). However, to me it often felt like, even in their close relationships, they were still often treated as the Inquisitor rather than them as simply a person who happens to be the Inquisitor (which is to be expected, their position is not a thing to be considered lightly, but it still probably feels isolating as hell). There are some instances where people go out of their way to “remind the Inquisitor that they are just a person” such as Sera’s pranks, Varric’s game of Wicked Grace, and probably multiple scenes from romances I have not done yet. But the isolating part in my opinion is having to be reminded that you are a person in the first place. The issue is not necessarily not interacting with people or getting close to them, more so those close to you not entirely knowing how to separate you from the Herald of Andraste. To the point where you probably struggle to do that yourself.

(Obvious exception here being Cole but point still stands)

Anyway, back to your question.

While I was thinking about it, I realized that I really like the idea of the parallels of two people (the Inquisitor and Solas) who had their identity as people overtaken by this duty-oriented persona of themselves, but still being divided by one’s ability to lean on their close ones, and the other’s lack thereof caused by his belief that he must walk the path of duty alone. It is a good metaphor for healthy attachment vs anxious avoidance if you ask me. And, in the Solavellan case, it feels fitting for Lavellan to be the first person he gets to lean on in this comparison. From her, he gets to finally learn the value of healthy dependence for the first time. To be loved is to be changed after all.

If we were to think of it as a “good vs. bad” ending, it could be that the Inquisitor does end up being too much like Solas and lets their duty as Inquisitor keep them from truly connecting with others. We obviously don’t have any major gameplay outcomes for this like we do with Rook, but it is interesting to consider how differently things may have turned out if the Inquisitor ultimately failed to let anyone in. You could even say it is the difference between going after Solas to kill him or trying to redeem him. In the first case, your relationship with him is overshadowed by your duty to protect Thedas. In the other, you have bonded with him enough to presume to know his true heart, enough to know he genuinely does not want to take the path he believes he has to.

I hope this made sense and it answered the question, thanks again for giving me a prompt to ramble!

[grumfield]

i'm humbly begging for tips on how to plot/structure a long-fic 🙏😔

ok please do not take this as law whatever, because I have been told time and time again that my process is insane and very antithetical to a lot of creatives but that’s how I work on literally all of my long projects SO. neuroses be upon ye below the read more.

I’m a hardcore planner and don’t like to start things without clear direction. If I’m planning something long that isn’t a self contained story, this is how I visualize it. It’s sort of the way that weekly serialized TV works, probably because I went to film school and used to want to be a showrunner, so I approach it with the mindset that I am the showrunner of my own weekly serialized one man show

And then each “story” is broken down like this:

(Keep in mind the beats above are very metaphorical. Funhouse just means the key facets of their character are on full display, like evasiveness or whatever, and seeing how they interact with the overall physical events of the world. Bad guys isn’t always bad guys, it’s just the looming threat, like a deadline)

Now onto the actual process. This is through the lens of shippy fics so it’ll usually be using terms/goals within that context!

“The thesis” is the first thing I decide and with and when it comes to fic it’s often a ship. It’s just the overall goal or point of what you’re writing. If you’re writing a shippy fic, your thesis is “X and Y Character get together” and everything that happens within that thesis is ultimately in pursuit of them getting together and then their happily ever after. The complexity of what happens for that to come into fruition is up to you.

“Thing I want to have happen” is usually a progression of a romance beat or the development of the relationship. Awareness of feelings, kissing, sex, etc.

“The story” that happens is the set of circumstances that lead to those beats, and for longfic pacing, I find it best to have each of these be thematically self-contained narratives to push things along.

Here’s an example:

Joe is in love with Brad, and they are in high school. “Story 1” they are paired together for a school project, and by the end Joe realizes that he enjoys Brad’s company, and invites him to his party. “Story 2” is Brad getting ready for the party, working up the courage to go, and then they play spin the bottle. By the end, Brad realizes that he likes kissing Joe. “Story 3” Joe has been avoiding Brad because kissing made him feel weird, but then he finds out they’re rooming together on a school trip. After they spend time together, they mutually realize they like each other and want to date; and screw. Then they go to prom, happily ever after”.

You have 3 separate situations with 3 different developments in Joe and Brad’s relationship. This sort of idea can be expanded to galactic scale, because ultimately when it comes to anything about people, human drama is all relatively the same. I think the important thing for longfics, both for keeping yourself interested and others, is providing some closure for some threads while opening up new doors, and this is conducive to that.

As for the individual story structure, that’s just how I plot everything self contained, it’s Blake Snyder’s Save the Cat Beat Sheet. I like compared to other plotting structures specifically because of “Theme stated, Fun and Games/promise of the premise, midpoint, and dark night of the soul.” I find that each of these are really conducive to understanding how to propel a story forward when you’re stuck, which can happen often when working on big projects.

Theme stated is usually what the characters need to learn, stated by someone else. It’s less a motif present and more of an emotional goal that the protagonist isn’t emotionally aware of and is resistant to. In romance it’s usually “you need to open yourself up more” said by a friend. This is usually a good thing to keep in mind in each scene, because sometimes if you write yourself into a corner; you can fall back on this and try and work out what your character can do next. Is Joe antisocial and needs to learn to trust others? and you’re not sure where to take it? Have him try being avoidant to Brad during their partnership, and Brad push back against that. Additionally, a great way to add drama is to have characters fall back on their old ways/not ingest the lesson of the theme.

Fun and Games/Promise of the Premise: basically just shennanigans that happen based on what you’re setting out to do. If Brad and Joe are working together, it’s the moments that arise from that. Moments where they clash, or go to the library, or one of them skips out on doing the project. Anything that they could experience while working together, as well as the romance implications of that. Bad guys close in is an extension of this—usually a deadline is approaching.

Midpoint: when everything seems great. For example, say you don’t know where to take Brad from the Fun and Games, have them create a really good project! They’re finished working, and realize they enjoy each other.

Dark Night of the Soul: they lose the project, they fight, Brad doesnt show up for the final practice and Joe feels betrayed. Anything that sets them emotionally back to square one, and then something happens to rally them once again to finish their school project.

In a big project, the big emotional issues may not be fully resolved from this, but from a plot basis, it gives you an idea of how to keep plot-based emotional momentum that all works through the ultimate development of the the thesis.

The theme of each arc should be different as they start to learn new things, because rehashing the same material doesn’t keep that momentum you need. So, if Joe learns to open up in arc one, maybe arc 2 is about him examining what he actually wants out of relationships with others.

Fic is a great place to do this because there’s so much shit you can mine for each story arc, and is really rewarding to readers when you bring it into play. And if you run out of that, eventually you can mine older arcs you write and bring their content back into play too. When you do this it basically allows you to have infinite arcs and shit if you want which is fun, and how TV shows go on for ages, for better or for worse

Anyways hope this is as in any way helpful! This is just how I do it haha

[cosmicjoke]

This anon is so dumb, they really didn't deserve this level of breakdown, but I wanted to thank you for contributing and adding it anyway, @mlelmsworld Because it's so on point and demonstrates perfectly what you and @levi-ackerman-ds were saying about how Eren's entire character revolves around the concept of bucking authority and doing whatever the fuck he wants, no matter the consequences. The way he's disappointed in and loses his respect for Levi because Levi actually follows orders and the chain of command says it all. It sets up how and why he ends up doing the exact opposite of what Levi advises him to do. This clown of an anon says Levi was a terrible mentor, but what it actually is is that Eren was a terrible student. He refused to listen because he was hellbent on never listening to anybody, never being told what to do, never, as LADS said, adhering to any rules or laws, because he wanted "absolute freedom", which can't exist if you care at all about others. You can't just do whatever you want if you care about the impact of those choices in the world. Eren cared, but he cared more about experiencing his idea of true freedom, and as he's always done, he ultimately chose to fulfill his own, selfish desire over his love and concern for his comrades and friends.

As you pointed out, he's been doing that since he was a child, getting himself into trouble because he never thought about the grief he was causing his mother, or Mikasa or Armin, by getting into fights and then having to get his ass rescued. And he does this throughout the story. Like when he engages with Reiner in that stupid MMA style fight and ends up getting kidnapped as a result. The entire scouting legion has to go after his ass to rescue him, including Erwin, who loses his fucking arm as a result. Or during the Female Titan arc, when he goes back to fight Annie, and ends up needing to get rescued by Levi and Mikasa. Of course there's him making himself into a hostage of Marley and forcing the entire scouting legion to, again, come to his rescue. All of this, over and over, forces his friends and comrades into actions they didn't choose for themselves and which they never would have chosen for themselves if he hadn't forced it on them. It ultimately culminates in him enacting the Rumbling and forcing what's left of them to go after his ass to stop him, once more. He gets Sasha killed. He gets Hange killed. He nearly gets Levi killed. He wipes out 80% of humanity. All because he's a selfish little bastard who prioritized his own desires over everyone and everything else. I don't understand how people can see that, see how he gets his own comrades killed because he's forcing them into dangerous situations against their own will, and still claim that he "did it to save his friends". No he didn't, bitch. The fact so many of his friends die and end up permanently injured as a result of his actions should in and of itself be enough to clarify that Eren was always acting for selfish gain.

One last point that you made, about how Eren never had any intention of living with his decision. Exactly. Eren knew he deserved to die, and further, he wanted to die, because he knew, in complete contrast to what Levi advised him, he'd made a choice that he couldn't live with. Eren's entire monologue to the alliance about not being willing to impede on their agency, and that being why he doesn't stop them from coming after him, is also nothing but a giant cope on his part, just like the bullshit he peddles to Armin at first about doing it to make them look like heroes. It's a lie he tells to both himself and others in order to hide from the horrible truth, which is that he's just a massive piece of shit who wants to wipe humanity off the face of the planet and willingly acts to do so. Eren did nothing but impede on the agency of his friends and comrades up to that point. The hypocrisy of his claims can't be overstated. He's totally full of it and he knows it.

What's more, he still got to experience "freedom", the sight of freedom he glimpsed in his visions of the future. All it took was 80% success for him to have that moment, where we see him transformed back into a child with his arms spread wide and above the clouds. But until that moment in the Paths, when Ymir lends him her full power, Eren fully believed he would succeed in wiping out 100% of humanity, and that was fully his intention. He never had some plan to only wipe out a certain percentage to "even the playing field" between Paradis and the rest of the world, or make his friends look like heroes. He was going to wipe out every, single person on the planet, like he stated over and over in the lead-up to that moment. When he touches Ymir and gains her power, he sees he's going to fail to do that, but it doesn't undo the vision he had before of his own experience of "freedom". He knows he's still going to get to experience that moment if he continues with his plan. And low and behold, he does, despite knowing that being stopped at 80% is actually going to worsen things for Paradis, only going to exacerbate the hostility and mistrust between the island and the rest of the world, which is why Armin is so horrified and angry near the end, during their conversation, because Eren admits it to him. He's admitting to Armin, after peddling his bullshit about making them into heroes, that he continue to pursue his goal despite knowing it would make everything worse, not better.

If Eren's true motivation was the well-being of his friends and of Paradis, he would have stopped acting the moment he saw he failed to wipe out 100% of humanity. The moment he saw his friends would risk their lives to stop him. But he didn't. He just... kept... going.

He put himself over all of them, like he always did.

The alliance betrayed Eren. The whole world wanted Paradis killed and all Eren did was fight back. What else should he have done? It was genocide vs genocide. His friends are hypocrites and horrible characters that wanted to play moral police. Hanji and Levi were horrible mentors. Open your eyes.

If you genuinely believe any of the garbage that you just spewed, then you need mental help.

I shouldn't even take the time to point out to you what's wrong with your "argument", because honestly, anyone this stupid and lacking in self-awareness isn't worth mine or anybody's time.

But I'll just lay out a few, basic facts for your edification.

Eren betrayed his comrades, over and over, starting with his literal incitement of war in Liberio, through his purposeful elimination of any other course of action that Paradis could have taken to secure their future. War only came to Paradis in the first place, you total clown, because Eren and Zeke orchestrated it themselves. I don't know how many times this has to be pointed out to people like you before it gets through that sediment-thick rock you call a skull and into the mush you call a brain. Go read the manga again, or watch the anime, and maybe try paying attention this time past the masturbation session you engage in every time Eren comes on screen.

The Survey Corps' entire mission statement was to dedicate themselves to the salvation of humanity. Not "Paradis", humanity. And Eren betrayed that mission in the most fundamental way possible by committing mass genocide on a global scale. He literally spit on the legacy and sacrifices of every single one of his comrades, including those who had given their lives to protect his, because they believed he was essential to humanity's survival. Instead of honoring that sacrifice by doing everything in his power to save humanity, he did the exact opposite by deciding to wipe humanity out of existence because he was disappointed the world didn't look like the pictures in Armin's books. That's how shallow, pathetic, selfish and childish Eren is.

You call Levi and Hange "terrible mentors", when Eren literally did exactly the opposite of what they both tried to teach him. Levi specifically told Eren to make the choice he could live with, the one he wouldn't regret, and yet, in the end, we see Eren filled with nothing but regret, drowning in self-loathing, because he knows he made the choice which went against what he knew in his heart was right. He spurned Levi's guidance entirely. Eren knew what he did was wrong and not justifiable on any level. What Eren did didn't sit right in any way, shape or form with his own, moral understanding of the world. Nobody made Eren into what he was. Nobody made Eren do what he did. It was a situation entirely of his own making and choosing.

You call the other members of the alliance "horrible characters" because they couldn't and wouldn't stand by and allow literally billions of innocent people to be murdered in cold blood. Remind me to pray to God that no important decisions are ever left to you. The lack of self-awareness in your statement is shocking in its depth. You don't see how, if this is what you truly believe and support, that it's you who's the truly terrible and horrible person here. Frankly, you're a disgusting example of a human being.

By stopping Eren, Levi, Hange and the rest of the alliance were upholding everything the Survey Corps originally stood and fought for. You calling them traitors and hypocrites is repulsive in its stupidity.

And that's all I'll say on the matter. You can now go back to waiting in line with Floch to swallow Eren's cock, since that's clearly what you really want to spend your time doing. Try not to choke.

[strqyr]

here to say thank you for understanding the characters the way as they should be, so many misinterpret them horribly and take them at their face value or will straight up make up a headcanon and then trick themselves into thinking thats what the character is(yang being the biggest one that gets mischaracterized so much and so badly). you actually go through each characters heads while considering canon material and fune tooth combing each and every scene and piece of information for them

i try my best lol. i'm sure i get stuff 'wrong' (i.e. not necessarily what the writers themselves were going for) every now and then, such is life when we all come from different backgrounds and have different life experiences that mold us, but nothing is more fun than putting myself in specific character's shoes and really digging in to see what makes them tick, how their backstories inform their actions, both past and present, and so on and so on.

i think a common stumbling block—besides headcanons taking priority, which frankly is a package deal with fandom in general—is the though that if you like a character, they must be good, and if you dislike a character, they must be bad, which leads to all their actions being painted in same light, nuance be damned. people want nuanced and flawed characters as long as it suits them; the moment it doesn't, all that gets thrown out the window while still claiming that nuance is everything—just don't point out that the character they like might actually be *GASP* flawed, or that character they dislike might actually not be Pure Evil™, and everything is fine.

(people relating to characters probably also plays a part here; any pointed flaw towards a character they like is seen as an attack against them, etc.)

yang to me is a fascinating case, because, well. people often point towards jaune as the character most often bastardized by fandom, and i completely get that, but what i've also found is that these jaune fans often just. stay on their lane, doing their own thing, which is very easy to ignore if you so please. with yang, though, i've seen people getting upset at other fans for taking an official description of yang into account when portraying her in artwork or fics and straight up claiming that the very obvious canon trait of yang's is either a) never really been a thing (it has very much been a thing since day 1), or b) a made-up fanon thing, and it's like

if you don't like it, take it up with rooster teeth??? why get mad at other fans for characterizing yang as she is in canon??? makes no sense lmao

anyway, not that i need them to stop; the most appreciation i've gained towards characters has been solely because i've seen takes about them that immediately, without ever having thought about these characters that deeply before, make me go "that's bullshit" and then dig through canon to make myself understand why my instinct was that strong—and often finding new things that i had never considered before. it's a win-win situation for me skdgkjhkfh

[kismetconstellations]

@sockdooe, This is the full original image:

According to the Tumblr post I originally snagged it from, it's an early piece of promotional artwork, meant to depict Keith as the series's central character. Shiro is shoved into the background, presumably to illustrate that he was intended to fulfill a Doomed Mentor role.

[sunsetcurve]

yeah!! i definitely think the changes they made were for the better; i keep saying this but to me the show isn't what it is without phoebe and max's dynamic so i'm really glad they adapted it to be more focused on them as twins but also rivals and all of that. i also love that phoebe's perfectionism and desire to be great is a part of her character and not a "chosen one" thing like it is in this pilot, but it does make me wonder if we would've gotten more lore about superpowers with the idea of phoebe having so many and oliver having none. i'm ultimately happy they didn't go that route for phoebe, it just brings up some questions!

but yeah, i fully agree that the no powers concept is sooo cool. the show had a lot of max's worry about being in phoebe's shadow as the core of his villain arc, but since we didn't see a lot of what things were like for the two of them in his pre-villain era it was kind of hard to get a hold of where that insecurity stemmed from (especially since a lot of his "being worse than phoebe" was him not wanting the same things and in many areas her just genuinely working harder than him). ofc that's not to say the insecurity was unfounded and i have like all my own headcanons about how they were raised for sure, but i feel like it creates more of a compelling and even understandable motivation for him if he literally is an outsider in his family by something he was born with and can't control. i would've even loved to see like, his powers coming in later (like near the end of the first season or in the second or something) in order to kind of level the playing field for them later on but still give more reasoning behind his isolation. it definitely would've created more tension between the thundertwins but i think it also could've been an interesting way to put more emphasis on the things that max/oliver does without his powers. obv we don't even necessarily know that he doesn't have them in this version, but since they're never shown or mentioned and everyone elses' are, it seems like they were originally going to focus on his intelligence more; in the description of the unaired pilot on wiki it says that "oliver is a boy with an iq of 212" when describing the thunder kids, so his smarts were probably the biggest thing for him. i get why they didn't do it for viewership's sake and i do think max/oliver would've been a tonally very different character if that was the case, just with the level of bitterness/resentment/division that would probably be unavoidable with something like that. but i will still be latching onto it as a concept!!! i think it's a really compelling idea and gives max a new and different layer.

have y'all seen the original pilot of the thundermans? because it's kind of insanely different compared to what the final show ended up being. i'm so glad we got the show we got but also i definitely see the reasoning behind the original writing decisions, so it'd be interesting to pick them apart a bit because we have:

everyone in the family has one power while phoebe has like twenty or thirty (including the electricity powers while barb just has a whip thing). so she's set up as a sort of chosen one character

but despite that, phoebe very much does not want to be a superhero

max does not exist, but there's an older brother oliver who is still evil

oliver is just so disconnected from the rest of the siblings

there's an entire conversation about his "evil phase" that doesn't exist in the original show but it makes him sooooo queer-coded like more than he already is, it's crazy

oliver doesn't seem to have any powers despite everyone in the family having one? which is interesting and possibly the motivation behind him wanting to be a villain

mrs. wong owns a taco place and is... nicer? she also has a son that goes to school with the kids

the set and color grading is so depressing my god it looks like it's from a 90s sitcom on ABC or something

[epickiya722]

So I'm looking through the comments of this one video about the reveal about Wasuke being the reincarnated and this comment actually put me in my feelings.

Like??? Nah, it's too early for me to cry right now.