#tog1

[rosettyller]

The Old Guard (2020)

[aelinfireheartgalathynius]

This may or may not be a controversial opinion but I do not understand why ACOTAR is Sarah's most popular series. It is, in my personal opinion, by far her worst one. I know people say the first TOG book is her worst book and that's fair, but I'd rather read TOG1 than ACOTAR1 if I'm being honest. TOG as a series is leaps and bounds ahead of ACOTAR in worldbuilding, characterization, plot, continuity and, honestly, quality in general — again, in my opinion. I'm glad more people have found Sarah's work, but it irks me that ACOTAR gets almost all the praise and attention and the vast majority of the good merch options.

[rosettyller]

-

Yusuf al-Kaysani vs Keane 

[wickedpact]

I'm excited to see what tog sequel brings, with the new director (and Gina staying on to help produce) it should be so good.

yes! honestly the new director being someone that gina knows and recommends is so good. ugh im so ready to see it 🥰

[at-flammeus]

[shirewalker]

but omg you guyssss I’m on holidays until the 26/28th!! that means I can edit!! :D

I could do soft dorian edit! :D I just need......a reminder....of scenes laksjdklasd

[ninazeniks]

still cannot believe the only book i cried while reading in 2020 was a goddamn sjm book that i picked up to say ‘eh i tried it’

[dhar16]

re-reading Throne of Glass1 (after 4 years) THREAD

As you could guess I’M SO FREAKING EXCITED ABOUT THIS. 

THERE’LL BE SPOILERS OF ALL THE SERIES. (just to warn u)

I’ll be sharing my thoughts, foreshadowing and those details, that I love from the bottom of my soul, here. For obvious reasons, I won’t be quoting (Spanish version, yep) but I promise I’ll do my best to explain everything as clear as possible. 

Love u, Dhar. 

[eventual-ghoste]

TOG rambling

Hello! This post has to do with Andy and some revelations at the end of Force Multiplied. Spoilers I give aren’t super specific but they’re there, and I can’t promise they won’t bite.

This is also in response to a TOG discord question I couldn’t stop thinking about, regarding Andy’s history as compared to Nicky’s, as posited by Em | salzundhonig:

But Nicky's past as a crusader and his growth from his past was well received, surely that'll be the same with Andy right?

I apologize if these ramblings sound like a rant but I swear my intentions are in the spirit of debate/discourse, and they are not an attack on any individuals.

The TL;DR is: Andy has work to do. Hopefully Hollywood and Rucka don’t fuck that up.

Feel free to check/correct/call me out if I’ve misspoke anywhere here (I realize I still have a lot to learn) but IMHO, I don’t think a semblance of Andy’s growth will be well received. Or, at least, I’m not so certain it should be because, in the comics, I genuinely don’t think Andy has grown. At the end of Force Multiplied, she still defends her actions with the “this is how I grew up” argument, and says it was “a long time ago,” and as much as I love love LOVE Andromache the Scythian for her badassery and how she’s a vision of female empowerment, I can’t help but think about how I hear those words all the time from people defending themselves against racist and/or sexist comments from so-called bygone eras.

Wanna know a sad difference between those people and our beloved Andy? They apologize for what they’ve done, or who they were. As hollow as the words will sound, however unforgivable their actions, however self-serving the apology will be— Those Asshats apologize. Comic!Andy never does, not even when confronted by Nile, an African American woman who likely descends from slaves, and has undoubtedly experienced racism and discrimination on a regular basis. It’s been thousands of years and Andy doesn’t even know how to say sorry (if she ever does, kudos to whoever finds a timestamp/panel, and let me know!). Instead, Andy buries the truth of her actions with a load of justifications to the point that she becomes self-deprecating, calling herself “vermin,” concluding she’s no better than the apathetic, selfish, evil POS they hunt. She may have spent the past millennia with TOG, trying to make things right but then—

But then she gives up. She’s tired. She resigns because she doesn’t have it in her anymore to fight the injustice she once willingly and self-servingly participated in. So, on top of being incapable of apology, Andy also doesn’t vow to do better. She doesn’t accede to change.

If there is one reason for why “The Old Guard” is a fucking absolutely shitty title, is that it refers to people who refuse to accept new ideas and progress. We are in a fandom that has four canonically queer characters, three people of color, and two female leads! Maybe the irony is intentional but damn, why is it that Andy, PROTAGONIST #1, hasn’t completely caught up with the program?

And that brings me to why I think Andy’s reckoning will not be on the same level as Nicky’s. Because as popular as Kaysanova is, neither Nicky or Joe are the main protagonists of TOG.

We don’t follow Nicky or Joe (or Booker) into scenes. The men are strictly back-at-the-ranch, supporting characters. We follow Andy or Nile (who also have the most screen time, I believe, but fact-check me). Filmically speaking, we ought to value them with a measure of precedence. Their words and actions matter the most, especially Andy’s by nature of how everyone looks to her for guidance.

So, with all that in mind: How does one reconcile a beloved protagonist with a despicable past in slavery, of all things? In the wake of an international racial reckoning, how is a celebrated, white South African actress going to fulfill that role? How is production going to balance fantasy with reality? How are Rucka and other involved writers (Theron, Prince-Bythewood?) going to alter the original IP, while retaining the nuance of this moral quandry?

Forgive me for the overkill but: How is it going to happen?

I’m well aware that my thoughts are going down a rabbit hole, and I am definitely overthinking this, but as somebody who’s genuinely curious about whether Victoria Mahoney and the rest of the TOG crew will have the guts to confront the issue head-on, or if they’ll take the easy way out. Excise the bits that no one wants to talk about, much less watch in a feel-good film that TOG has become for many fans.

Whatever production ends up doing, I hope that 2O2G doesn’t end on a cliffhanging “pity Andromache” note because, damn, I’m gonna feel real uncomfortable scrolling through fandom posts, reading people defending slavery and giving the same “the past is a foreign country; they do things differently there” spiel, in order to protect a fictional character played by a conventionally-attractive cis heterosexual white woman.

(Also: If the past is so different from the present, why are there still calls for social justice? Why do ALL industries still lack diverse and equitable representation?)

Now, this is where I’ll go back to the original question and say: While I think Nicky functions well as an example for change/growth/redemption, I don’t think his change serves as a good comparison to Andy’s. I say this, even while I’m aware of double standards in gender, and even between the reception of gay characters vs lesbian characters vs etc. (re: I’m open to critique).

My line of thought stems from the fact that, canonically, Nicky always had Joe. The two have seemingly been inseparable from the moment they first killed each other. It’s likely that Joe would check Nicky whenever he said or did something wrong and offensive, and perhaps this symbiosis was mutual.

(I also have a feeling that many people easily disregarded the Christian/Muslim conflict because A) lack of knowledge in BOTH religions and B) the onscreen couple appear very much in love, especially when one is giving a beautiful monologue on the nature of their relationship. When we meet Joe and Nicky, we meet them at their best. Shout-out to interfaith couples who know more about this than my single (and secular) ass does, and might have more to say about this.)

On the other hand: Andy never had someone who was like how Joe was for Nicky. No one ever calls out Andy because A) she’s the oldest, B) she’s the lead, and C) her business card says ANDROMACHE OF SCYTHIA, WAR GOD. Yeah, she had Quynh/Noriko but— at the risk of yelling at Rucka for vilifying a queer woman of color (or praising him for not leaning on the stereotype of Asian passivity? idk, anyone got thoughts on this?)— Noriko is clearly not encouraging good behavior. Neither will Quynh if Netflix lets 2O2G be as faithful to the comics as TOG1 was.

Which means the Law 282 conversation might be…unavoidable? Somewhere along the line, we still end up in the hotel room with Andy, on the floor, pleading for her crew to not abandon her, even though she is the one who abandoned their cause.

This sets up a circumstance in which Fade Away might be spent trying to redeem Andy/Charlize Theron, bring her back to the “good side,” teaching her to be better— thereby highlighting her experience and “salvation,” rather than making a point of her past, and the reality of her actions. In other words, a “pity the white woman” fest.

(Because I’m crossing my fingers that TOG production/Netflix know better) In an effort to prevent that from happening, I wonder if Rucka will combine Force Multiplied with Fade Away for the 2O2G script. Given the series’ track record, I think it is feasible that FA’s release coincides with 2O2G’s, and that it finally resolves Andy. Whether by revitalizing her energy as a do-some-gooder, or finalizing her vulnerability by putting her 6,000 years to rest, thus handing off the reigns to Nile and a new generation of leadership.

The last thing I want to leave off with is: I don’t hate Andy. It’s a credit to Rucka and fellow writers (from film and fandom) that I don’t.

I might not love her character as enthusiastically as I used to, but that doesn’t mean I’m not amazed by her creation. She’s a female lead whose sexuality is not exploited by the male gaze; whose emotional vulnerability is not considered a hindrance to, nor an explanation for, her battle prowess; and whose unabashed queerness is not reinforced by cookie cutter stereotypes. Andromache the Scythian is AMAZING.

That doesn’t mean I’m going to excuse or ignore her most glaring and contemptible flaw. More than anything, I’d love to sweep her past under the carpet so that 2O2G can be problem-free. Like many people, I just want to enjoy a movie without getting triggered.

I want to see Quynh and Andy kiss and make up. I want to see Joe rocking Those Shorts, and a cheeky shot of Nicky appreciating his ass. I want to see Nile welcoming Booker back to the family again. Some form of group therapy would be chef’s kiss.

But something about glossing over/removing slavery from Andy’s narrative reeks of dishonesty, and reminds me that the (Hollywood) movie industry is full of people who do not want to be tainted with negative perceptions. Understandably, appearances are their livelihood— but that particular truth is something they still have to reckon with.

[iambecomeyourvillain]

dude the only sjm books i like were TOG1 and 2 I couldn't even finish crescent city like can someone let sjm know that making your characters "tan" does not mean inclusivity?

it's like porn, but with a badly written plot by someone who's clearly a very confused white "feminist"

sorry for the rant, this was just my personal view, sorry.

hey anon don't apologize we all have our opinions

and I don't even have mine yet- I'm not even halfway through

this is also the first sjm book I'm reading because I heard stuff about acotar that totally ruined my mood to read it. this is why I steer clear of book reviews smh

[bitchryver]

IMMY!! An AU where Nehemia and Aelin grew up together (their dads being long time friends themselves).

YESSSS omg imagine the heir of fire flashback w baby aelin except its not dorian visiting terrasen... its nehemia and her family, and when aelin asks nehemia if she wants to be her friend nehemia actually says yes!!!! princess gfs!!!! childhood friends !!!!

although, as im thinking about it, what if its their moms that are long time friends? theres canonical evidence suggesting that evelyn ashryver was a woc [not giving sjm credit for that because LMAO imagine ! she doesnt have the range] who left wendlyn for terrasen, the country of maeves enemy brannon .....and nehemias mom was the granddaughter of a rival king who tried to take the throne from the ruling family of nehemias father....... imagine evelyn landing in terrasen to discover rhoe wearing the amulet of orynth, a gift passed down from his descendant brannon, who maeve was so desperately afraid of....imagine evelyn trying to learn about what the wyrdmarks mean.......who would know about wyrdmarks and how to use them? they royal ytger family of ellywe, who cannonically taught their daughter and heir to the throne how to use them, who had temples associated with elena and brannon in the marshes of ellywe...... evelyns plea for help, this woman who left her home country of sunshine and had to acclimatise to the cold weather and culture of terrasen really touches Queen Ytger, who offers to help in return for working with terrasen to build a stronger alliance, in case adarlan decides to expand its attack. two mothers worried for the future of their children and their people, teaching each other their magic! evelyn, the demi fae, teaching the queen about her water magic & how it works [imo the queen is a real scholar, she just likes to know everything she can about everything!] and the queen in return, showing her how to read wyrdmarks. They spend so much time together in the coming months that aelin and nehemia, by proxy spend a lot of time together and become fast friends- aelin is DELIGHTED someone isnt afraid to be around her and be a little gremlin kid with her, and nehemia is delighted to find a girl her own age she can run around with [even though she loves kharis and deji to death, theyre too young to let her put ribbons in their hair and play fight]

AHHHH plus imagine the possibilities when celaena and nehemia meet again in ToG1 in the glass castle! celaena is so ashamed her friends sees her like this and desperately tries to signal to her not to blow her cover!! Imagine nehemia being PISSED AS FUCK because she was told to go to adarlan to find a ‘celaena’ to help with her mission and no one told her it was princess aelin?????????

[ohmyfairies]

Finished TOG1 reread,, thoughts are Chaol is still my favourite character as he was the first time I read the book, early series Dorian was very bland and Celaena was very full of herself and also super whiny which,,,, understandable she’s a teenage girl

4 stars

[togincorrectquotes]

What is your favorite TOG moment?

You know when you get asked your favourite thing and you forget Every thing that's ever happened...?I will say I loved all the trials in tog1!! I love trials in books!! My favourite one was when they were climbing that thing and she saves noxI LOVE the scene with Rolfe where she's being celaena and pretending she doesn't know rowanAlso I also actually really like the end of empire of storms. It's so dramatic and heart wrenchingThe bit in heir of fire when aelin is training and rowan realises how shes been whipped and stuff and their relationship changesThe bit when they free aedionWhen manon attacks the matronThe whole boat battle in empire of storms!!!! Rowan and Dorian working together!!!!!-Alice this is a really difficult question! I love almost every page of every book in the series! but I'm gonna have to go with that moment in Heir of Fire where the Valg princes are about to defeat Celaena, but then baby Aelin and all her beloved dead appear and tell her to "get up". I just think it's so powerful. it's the turning point between her being Celaena, the assassin who's hiding from and lying to herself, into Aelin, the queen who is not only coming back to her country to save them but is also returning to herself. and fittingly in this moment it's baby Aelin who takes her hand and lifts her from the darkness, which is also very symbolic. not only does it show that Aelin is capable of saving herself, it's also a reminder to any of the readers who may be struggling that they can save themselves too. Aelin's lost ones are all surrounding her, people who died and made great sacrifices for her, but it's baby Aelin who helps her stand. what I think sjm wanted us to understand is that friends and loved ones are so important and will always help you get through the rough days, but unless you reach back and offer yourself a hand, you're never going to rise. however, if you're gentle with yourself and allow yourself the kindness to heal, you will always find a way out of the darkness. and that's why that scene is my favorite across all the books. -Jojo

[w-a-i-d]

Agreed. A tiny flash in TOG1 would have been nice. But we evidently didn’t need it, and I can’t imagine any circumstances in TOG2 where it would have any relevance to anything. Even if the plot diverges significantly from Force Multiplied (and I hope it does) and even if Joe and Nicky have more of a role in it (and I hope they do - not to the point of taking centre stage from Andy or Nile, but it would be nice if they were a little more than a Greek chorus) the whole point is, and should be, the gang grappling with Quynh’s reappearance. What possible bearing could Joe and Nicky’s unique take on the meet-cute have on that? And even if Joe and Nicky were more of the protagonists than they are... and delicious as their backstory is ... it’s over. They’re over it. To us it’s still full of juicy romance and angst and drama. To them it is the oldest of old news and when there’s no new immortal to introduce themselves to, I doubt either of them think about it much. How would you even go about changing that? Have a villain try and get in their heads like “oooh, can you really trust him?? Has he really forgiven you?” They’d both be like “LOL don’t be silly. Anyway.” I mean, yes, I’m sure every now and then Nicky encounters some Religious Fanatic On A Mission From God and sometimes he’s like “son, I was like you once” and sometimes he’s like “*sigh* *stab*” but it’s not a point of vulnerability for him the way Booker and Andy’s flashbacks in TOG1 were. But flashes of the OG 4 together could be, for everyone concerned. Also, honestly, right now fic writers have a fully open range with room for everything between “they slowly warmed up to each other and gradually fell in love over the course of a century” to “On stab 3 their eyes met and they fucked right there on the battlefield.” Do you really want any kind of final answer to that? I don’t.

Old Guard fandom, I would like to submit to you that a Crusades flashback in 2 Old 2 Guard, would be bad, actually.

1. It doesn’t further the likely story of the sequel.

The Old Guard is Nile and Andy’s story, remember?

The teaser scene at the end of the first film suggests that the major conflict of the sequel will be Andy and Quynh’s relationship and further complicating the narratives of betrayal, forgiveness, and redemption that the first film initiates. What is Joe and Nicky’s role in all of that? Though not a comic reader myself, many fans have pointed out that pretty much everything Joe and Nicky do in the second comic was used in the first movie. So we don’t know what new objectives Joe and Nicky will be given in 2 Old 2 Guard, but, frankly, they are secondary characters in the first film and are going to remain so in the sequel.

Joe and Nicky’s function in the narrative is to be a foil to all of the other immortals: they found love and happiness and contentment, despite the odds, with each other. They are supposed to be static and boring so that the narrative can have all the other characters wrestle with “how do I get what Joe and Nicky have when the universe seems to have fucked me over?” We already know they “killed each other – many times” and then figured their shit out and fell in love. Showing information that we already know about their backstory doesn’t add anything. It doesn’t further the primary story of 2 Old 2 Guard, which, again, is about Nile and Andy and Quynh.

It would be, at best, a distraction and, at worse, actively harmful.

2. It doesn’t tell us anything we don’t already know, or give the necessary opportunity to unpack nuance and character growth

Joe and Nicky discuss their meeting in the first film in an incredibly light-hearted way, which is fitting for people who have had 900 years to come to terms with the horrors in their past.

The crusades were publicly justified as a religious endeavor by pious Christians to “take back” the holy land. Of course, history is more complicated than that. Of course, not every person who took up arms with the European forces believed in the religiosity of the purported mission. But the fact remains that the public mission and justification of the crusades was based upon the notion that white, European Christians were inherently better and more worthy of the Levant than the people who actually lived there.

Nicky participated in this racist, genocidal campaign. To depict Nicky in the crusades is to depict him, not as the thoughtful and good and caring, but also righteous and deadly character he is in the 21st century, but as someone who is complicit in a racist, misogynist system.

Joe, too, does not escape the 1100’s unscathed. Joe, as a defender of Jerusalem, might be on the “right side of history,” but that does not mean he or his fellow men-at-arms did not feel just as hatefully towards the invaders as the invaders felt towards them. Joe in the first film is depicted as a skilled and scrappy fighter with big emotions and a sense of humor. But no one is their best self when their very existence is under attack.

The real problem here is not that the crusades, and Joe and Nicky’s role in them, is complicated, but rather that a simple flashback, doesn’t allow room for the narrative to unpack HOW Joe and Nicky went from being hate-filled victims of religious and geo-political institutions attempting to annihilate one another, to the characters we know in the first film. A flashback doesn’t allow for the space and time for Joe and Nicky to question and reckon with their actions, to get over their hate for each other, to grapple with the continued hate present in the world today. The crusades themselves are not actually important to what makes Joe and Nicky, Joe and Nicky. What’s important is all the unsexy work that they did, together and separately, to realize that they loved each other and to determine how they were going to live their immortal lives together.

A crusades flashback doesn’t give us any new information. A crusades flashback doesn’t allow for nuance and complication. A crusades flashback doesn’t give us the character development from Joe and Nicky that might actually be relevant to the overall narrative to 2 Old 2 Guard.

3. Holy batman white supremacist dog whistles

We live in a moment in which fascism and white supremacy is on the rise globally. The symbols of Medieval Europe and the crusades are often used (and misinterpreted) by white supremacist groups.

There’s a huge difference between talking about Nicky being part of the crusades and actually having the actors embody it. Even if the film later indicates that Nicky repudiates what he did as part of the crusades, the images themselves can’t portray that. Even if Nicky does not don any of the religious insignia of the era, there would still be images of a medieval white man slaughtering a medieval Brown man and those images can and would spread across the internet stripped of their context by people whose worldview is actively opposed to the values of the story of The Old Guard.

A Crusades flashback in 2 Old 2 Guard would be bad, actually.

And I trust in Gina Prince-Bythewood and Victoria Mahoney to know that.

[wickedpact]

god in person cast interviews… i’m so ready for the chaos. i hope ngo thanh van will be included this time!

part of me also wonders if they’ll release the deleted scenes once there’s been an “official” announcement for the sequel…. or maybe on the one year anniversary??? which is saturday i believe - 2ta

if you make the hands image ur header i will be forced to throw you into the sea - 2ta

asdfghjk i dont think i have the constitution to go looking at that thing nearly every day

I HOPE SO, especially since it doesnt seem like there are *that* many deleted scenes. maybe like gina will post them on her insta like she did the hair & makeup shoot

[interestingasfuckreddit]

This is the TOG1, a WWII heavy tank that was designed in 1939 by the designers of WWI tanks. https://t.me/InterestingasfuckBackup/2367 #interestingasfuck #rinterestingasfuck #interestingasfuckreddit #interestingasfucksubreddit #r_interestingasfuck