#to treat fictional characters like they're real and harass people over SHIPPING
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Whenever I hang out at a con with cool people who go outside (everyone at this con has been extremely chill, polite, generous, sweet, loving? and respectful) I go back on the internet and see any post with terminally online inflammatory nightmare language and I'm like wow I hate it here and the Mean Thoughts start lmao
#this is about seeing posts from ppl#being extremely weird about ppl who drink coffee again#person who self medicated with weed edibles daily or they have 45 panic attacks voice:#'lol you're so ADDICTED to that SUBSTANCE'#mean post of the week#tune in next week folks#when I make yet another post about how stupid it is#to treat fictional characters like they're real and harass people over SHIPPING#if you do that you're literally dirt btw
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the weponizing of gayness is getting out of hand. you're called a homophobe if you don't ship two people. you're called a homophobe if you don't like a gay character because of their racist and misogynistic past. i genuinely don't believe that a lot of these people have ever been exposed to real bigotry in their entire lives, or they're just straight
Like i’ve said most of the people I’ve seen making these takes are either straight white cis women or white cis gay men who both have an insane amount of privilege in the community to the point that the plights of others aren’t on their radar….
like im not saying they haven’t experienced any kind of discrimination, i am sure they have, but being cisgender white people, there is a level of privilege there that refracts their view of what bigotry actually looks like to a certain degree that they view anything critical of their interests as being violently homophobic.
i myself am a white gay amab person (i’m nonbinary, but I am passing for male) so I definitely have a certain level of privilege that has protected me from being directly discriminated against in ways I’ve seen my non-white queer friends be treated. that being said (and i am by no means perfect) i do my best to check my privilege before blowing something out of proportion just because it inconveniences or annoys me.
i’ve mentioned on here briefly before that i have faced a lot of discrimination from others growing up in church. my mother sent me to a doctor asking him to try and “fix” me when she found out i was gay. i have been called slurs by people who claim to be “god-loving christians” for just existing within that space. i have been harassed and berated by family members over my queerness because they think the jokes don’t sting (and they don’t care if they do). I’m not saying this to ask for sympathy and pity; I have worked through this in therapy, and I have moved on and attempt to rebuild relationships and salvage what I can. But I say this to provide context of my own experiences as s queer person.
A lot of white queer people have experienced this, but a lot haven’t. A lot of them have grown up in far more accepting environments and only know of bigotry towards queer people from reading/seeing it in media. They see these events and in their inability to understand them within the context of their own experience, they equate their own everyday inconveniences to these things because as humans we often have a desire to be coddled and pitied, so when we aren’t the center of attention for pity, we try to force ourselves into it by blowing things out of proportion, or claiming bigotry and homophobia when that is not the case. The “give me sympathy” card is a staple in the white queer person’s wallet.
Unfortunately, for poc queer people, and non-cisgender people who aren’t ‘passing’ they experience a different level of discrimination and violent bigotry that a lot of white queer people have never experienced. Now that is not to say that white cis queer people have never been the victims of violence, they absolutely have and there are plenty of cases out there to prove it. The fact is that for poc queer people, violent bigotry is often the standard for discrimination they experience. And that is something that unless you have experienced it yourself, you will never really understand the affects that has on a person.
so this idea that disliking a queer character is somehow homophobic comes from a place of blatant privilege. it comes from people who want you to look at them and say “ohhh poor ____, they’re being discriminated against because this fictional character is being criticized for his own bigotry within canon” rather than acknowledging that queer people are not inexcusable of bad behavior. they don’t understand that calling other queer people homophobic for having valid criticisms of a character and the way their story has been handled only shows queer people as this melodramatic clump of people who cry wolf over things that are not im fact actually conducive of homophobia.
I’m sorry I kind of turned this into a discussion of the hierarchy of queer privilege and how it negatively affects the entire community when the privileged minority are loudly complaining about things they don’t like by throwing around the word “homophobic” but unfortunately that seems to be where we are at in this fandom. I didn’t touch much on the straight white cis women of it all, but unfortunately straight white cis women are always trying to steamroll queer people when it comes to discussing queer issues so this is just par for the course.
#911 abc#911#911 on abc#buddie#buddie 911#buck and eddie#911 buddie#anti tommy kinard#anti bucktommy#anti tevan#anti bummy#anti bt#911 discourse#queer rep in media#queer discourse
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//rant, discourse
I hate how misogyny in fandom discussion is being co-opted.
It's not ''how women don't feel safe within fandom space that is still dominated by men, women's interests are still being mocked by men, sexism is still rampant in geek/nerd spaces, how most men still don't take women seriously if they happen to share similar interests with them, mansplaining still happen a lot, a lot of sexual harassment still happens to women in fandom space, teen girls being a vulnerable target in fandom because creepy nerd adult men just can't help themselves, etc'' anymore,
instead, it's ''my yuri ship & fav female chara doesn't make it into the top 5 AO3 and a lot of yaoi ships dominate AO3. how dare these filthy rotten fujos and dumb yumejos only create content of fictional male characters! what a sexist scum, urgh women AM I RIGHT??"
Yeah sorry but I don't think women and young girls fawning over fictional men is the problem of misogyny in fandom lol.
It's just so frustrating how recently most misogyny in fandom discourse always revolved around bashing women fangirling over male characters, while there are a lot of recent cases how young girls in fandom space being victims of grooming/sexual harassment by adult men & popular geek male creators openly mocking nerdy women interests, somehow it's the fujoshi and yumejoshi fault for misogyny in fandom. the level of cognitive dissonance is insane
''b-but we can discuss both because both are bad!!"
Are you fucking kidding me? DO YOU REALLY SERIOUSLY THINK THAT WOMEN AND GIRLS FAWNING OVER 2D MEN IS ON THE SAME LEVEL AS MEN BEING TOTAL ASSHOLES TO WOMEN?
Sorry, but I always side with real women (not fictional ones) when it comes to misogyny lol. yes, including fujos & yumejos. I love my anime girls and want to see them thriving but when it comes to misogyny I have to focus on real-life breathing women over 2D ones.
People sometimes forget that women who fawn over fictional men are also subjected to misogyny in the real world & they're just trying to find solace/escapism from misogyny in real words by making the content of their favorite fictional men. yes, you can feel frustrated that your favorite female chara or yuri ship doesn't get much content but...don't blame it on women? there may be internalized misogyny in play but it's not like they did harmful things? most of the time these ladies just mind their business and stay in their lane fetishizing anime boys in their corner.
Obviously, you can have a nuanced discussion about why women are much more obsessed with male characters over female characters but most of the discussions end up putting all the blame on women and acting like these women are sexist scum for not focusing on female characters and contributing heavily to misogyny in fandom which is just....sorry that's dumb especially when compared to men domination & what women went thru' in fandom space lol, not comparable at all.
Like, come on, between a grown-ass man who had deranged rambling on reddit about why women ruin everything they touch & why pandering to women is a mistake to a teen girl tweeting how she hates this female character because she just wants to see more of her 2D husbando screentime. which one is worse and contributes to misogyny more? hint: you cannot say both are bad.
Idc if I get called pick me or whatever, I think women and girls can sexualize fictional men as a treat after being subjugated by misogyny in the real world.
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I find it weird how so many in the GG fandom love Nate but hate Chuck. I'm not a fan of either, but I don't find any of the main characters likable enough, though they're entertaining but I don't understand their logic. Nate made numerous comments that were questionable throughout the show and enabled and defended Chuck's mistakes and in season 6 he dates and sleeps with a teen as a grown man with a business. If he looked unattractive I'm sure people would criticize him more for it but he's charming enough for them to hypocritically sweep it under a rug. Nate told the police they couldn't talk to Sage because she's a minor and also complained on a date with her about it being too high school for him. He also made a weird comment trying to convince someone to go to a party because there would be grown women dressed like schoolgirls there among other comments. Chuck isn't better than him and Nate is more likable most of the show, but while Chuck's misdeeds weren't handled realistically enough it was acknowledged to some extent while Nate's was swept under a rug in the show. Nate sleeping with a minor was treated like a rich people thing since when he told his grandpa a grown woman was sleeping with him as a teen his grandpa talked of it as normal while Rufus who wasn't rich had a critical reaction to an adult sleeping with Dan as a teen. Miss Carr wasn't rich enough to walk away without backlash, so fans reinforcing the lack of backlash Nate got in the show and hypocritically being woke in Chuck's case to harass real people over a serious issue for stan wars sickens me. I don't even ship Chair and I find it disturbing and disrespectful to people who deal with shit in real life. It feel like they don't really care about the issue they're preaching about. Also most will go on about Blair being mistreated because of ship wars and stan Blair but will much lesser acknowledge the way she treated victims of abuse and slut shamed women as if they are less important because they aren't favorites. Her publicly outing Dan as Miss Carr's victim for her personal agenda was wrong and her doing things like making Eva out to be a prostitute less worthy of respect was distasteful. People judge others for enjoying Chuck's character and while Blair is more likable she was messed up and not someone most would get along with in real life. While I ship Dair I find it hypocritical how some Dair fans will unprovoked be self righteous about shipping them and say shit like they're less retarded than Chair fans while liking Blair who was messy and would likely not support abuse victims if it got in the way of her personal goals and would actively bully them instead. I confronted someone over this and they got offended over me calling them self righteous even though they were offensive first, accusing me of not really shipping them. I hate how people have to act like their side of the fandom is perfect and judge others for what they like in fiction.
hi!! so truthfully after yesterday I wasn't entirely sure where this ask was going but I think I get ur point. obviously I just wanna reiterate that I'm a chair shipper but I agree that a lot of nate's behaviour is overlooked bc he's attractive. like u said there are extremely vocal chuck haters who love nate as if he hasn't done plenty of problematic things too. I think that to a certain degree some fans have a selective memory and are quick to list bad things 1 character has done but conveniently ignore or excuse another character for worse or equally bad behaviour. ultimately for me gossip girl is a show about "bad" people so the idea that they all have to be made to be likeable goes against their character, none of them are meant to be especially good or nice and there's nothing wrong with that. obviously it really depends on the individual, but I think this idea that dair is morally superior to chair is kinda ridiculous bc at the end of the day it's a 00s teen drama where all the characters are varying levels of "bad" and like u said it's hypocritical too
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Anytime I see a post about how Izzy hands deserved what happened to him or how it was totally justified for Ed to be a horrible person to him I get so damn angry. I get so angry and I need to just speak my mind at how angry it makes me.
To me, Ed in season two has shown abusive behaviours. Plain and simple. He has shown a pattern to physically assaulting Izzy. One toe is a single instance, but two more is a pattern. He tells Izzy if he doesn't do what he wants he is easily replaceable. And it isn't just abuse to Izzy. It's the whole crew. He's horrible to all of them. They're all scared of him. The scene where Ed is talking about the vibe on the ship shows me no one at all is comfortable around him.
I love Ed as a character don't get me wrong. I relate to him in parts, mostly how he can't handle his feelings and how messy it is and his self hatred. And also the abuse he faced. I love Ed. But to just close your eyes and slap hands over your ears and go lalalalala at all the shit he's done but then put all the blame on Izzy angers me. Yes, I'm not gonna deny Izzy fucked up. He is toxic as hell to Ed as well, and I never justify the stuff he did because it was bad. But never, ever, does that justify being abused. The only person responsible for how Ed has treated everyone is Ed himself. Ed isn't a fucking toddler who doesn't comprehend what he's doing. He's a grown adult man. Izzy cannot force him to do shit. At the end of the day, the only person who has a choice to what to do is Ed himself. Yes, Izzy was horrible to Ed when he was the most vulnerable. He said vile stuff, and kicked him down when he was weak. And that is shitty and the blame for Izzy's own actions is on Izzy. But the same goes for Ed. Ed chose to hurt the crew, and he chose to hurt Izzy. This was all his choice. No one forced him to do anything. Outside factors all contribute to it, yes, and it all worsened his mental state. But it is still his fault. And as far as I'm concerned, Ed owes the crew and izzy a MASSIVE fucking apology and a hell of a lot of change. Izzy realised what he said to Ed was wrong. He knows he fucked up. He tells Stede as much. But Ed is also at fault and I'm pissed how people keep just acting like he had no say in it whatsoever and he was purely at the mercy of his fucking subordinate.
Personally? I hate how serious discourse is in this fandom and this is a fictional show and I don't treat fictional characters like real people. But the victim blaming, and the blatant hypocrisy of how people treat Izzy compared to Ed angers me. Either they all suck and we should hate them both, or we stop giving a damn and stop blaming characters and harassing people over a fucking FICTIONAL CHARACTER.
#Also ngl Ed's behaviour to Izzy reminds me of my own abuser how he treated me#But I'm not getting to that#This is just a rant#izzy hands#tw abuse#tw abuse mention#Like I'm just so angry because I bet these people would say I deserved the abuse I got because I wasn't a picture perfect uwu victim#And I hate how this fandom treats it#At the end of the day it's a bloody fictional romcom and I didn't come here to see idiots victim blaming a guy who was mutilated#delete later#Ignore my ramblings I just need to get it off my chest before I implode#I know some dumbass is gonna take this wrong and act like I hate ed or some nonsense when I fucking don't
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Freedom of speech but not freedom from consequences. Anti-censorship but we still don’t want to platform bigots 🫤 Coming from a neutral party, I think you could learn a lot from listening to all perspectives to avoid echo chambers. Form your own opinion instead of following a crowd. My opinion? Hate the person, not the ship. Don’t judge a book by it’s cover, but that is what the book cover is made for. I think it’s healthier if you and everyone else stopped trying to be antagonistic? How are you supposed to spread positivity if you’re always on the verge of angry ranting?
Okay I'm going to try and answer for the sake of the people who might read this kind of bs in their inboxes and be affected negatively by it, and maybe even feel like they're being unfair towards the very bullies which spend their energies harassing and insulting (and sometimes also doxxing and suicide bating) us.
Let's break this down.
1. "freedom of speech but not freedom from consequences" I can't even talk about some dark themes in fiction or my own personal history of real life abuse without getting termed here. Erotic art can't be posted almost anywhere at this point, and not just the kind antis dislike. Freedom is a construct on social media because ultimately these spaces are owned by someone, and you'll be kicked out if they don't like you.
2 "we don't want to platform bigots" no, absolutely we don't. Historically, giving a platform to bigots and hatemongers fosters hate, violence and censorship. Also I have no power to platform or deplatform anyone, I'm just a guy on tumblr, so I don't even know what you're on about with this. If I had the power to decide, trust me that I would kick the terfs the fuck out of here anyways. And also the cowards who hide under the anon cover to send hate and threats.
3 "listen to perspectives and avoid echo chambers" I'm over 30 and I've been a kinkster for most of my life. I'm queer. Among other things, history and queer history are in my field of studies. I didn't form my opinion here, I came here with one already. I listened to all the perspectives you might think of also because I was here when the rise of censorship and puritanism happened, and by the way you know who got deplatformed? The kinkster and the artists, surely not the bigots. I don't think I've ever seen an instance of an anti being blocked or termed for harassment, whereas blogs get blocked every day for having NSFW content.
4 "form your own opinion instead of following a crowd" again, do you really think I existed as a blank slate before creating this blog?
5 "my opinion is(...)" You sound like a Christian preacher and it gives me the heebiejeebies.
6 "it's healthier if you stopped trying to be antagonistic" sweetheart, we are being bullied every day. If you're someone who creates erotic art of any kind you're subjected to a ton of harassment, and if you create something which could be considered problematic, you get death threats. Suibating. Insults lathered with misogyny, transphobia, queerphobia, you get treated like a freak of nature and threatened to have your livelihood taken away. Or threats of doxxing and of deplatforming. And you might very well get your blog shut down. I'm going to stop being antagonistic when I'll stop being antagonized, and if you think that said bullying is justified and I should just suck it up - and I say this in the most antagonistic way possible - fuck off. Not one single ship or one single fictional character is worth the harassment of another human being.
7 "how are you supposed to spread positivity of you're always on the verge of angry ranting" What makes you think I want to spread postivity? No like, honestly. What makes you think that my purpose with this blog is that. I'm here to talk about my blorbos, and if this makes someone happy then good for them. If the fact that I'm opinionated and passionate about things bothers you, no one is forcing you to stay.
Your whole thing is a mix of victim blaming and fake neutrality which is not welcome on my blog. Please block me and go on with your life, I'm not interested in your empty platitudes.
To anyone else who's reading this, don't ever feel guilty for defending yourself and for fighting back against oppressive measures. There is never a good reason for harassment, and if you were subjected to it, it's in your right to be angry. No matter what p r o b l e m a t i c ship you posted about.
#Anon hate#Long post#'hate the person not the ship' dude what the fuck#Dislike the ship and block the tag. Don't fucking hate anyone#Weirdo
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Gruvians: It's just fiction! stop taking it so seriously! Also Gruvians: writes long metas on why the ship is brilliant, stalks accounts they were blocked by to bitch about said account not liking their ship, stalks posts they disagree with & vehemently reading the tags within each reblog of said posts & treats head canons such as a Gray liking Lucy & Erza first before Juvia as some sort of personal attack against them.
A large part of the GrUvia fanbase seems to be built on insecurity, and I think that for exactly the reasons you mentioned.
The GrUvia ship has come under a lot more scrutiny than most other ships in Fairy Tail, and I think it's resulted in them being completely unwilling to think about their ship in any kind of nuance.
One of our friends once mentioned that they don't support the ship in one of the most innocent ways possible, and it led to several days worth of battling with GrUvia fans and explaining her stance and why she was justified in her opinion. It got to the extent that she had to explicitly state that she would not be responding to any more asks because she didn't want her blog to become known for being anti-GrUvia. Just for stating an opinion. That is how quick the ship's fanbase are to anger.
You're either supportive and unequivocally good, or you're not and you must be attacked.
We've seen evidence that this has even extended over their ability to think critically about each other. We've received asks about how there is a psychologist in the GrUvia fanbase who thinks that the ship is healthy, and one of our admins was in the fandom when the whole GrUvia University thing went down. If I was a GrUvia fan, I would be disgusted by how they're treating people.
They cannot handle the idea that there is a space that exists in the Fairy Tail fandom that doesn't welcome them. Whenever we post things with the tagline "GRUVIA FANS: DO NOT INTERACT" we'd get at least 1 ask from a butt-hurt fan who could not find it in themselves to take our advise to block us and move on, and instead had tantrums after tantrums in our ask box.
(Hi, one of the other admins here popping in for just a second! Quick tw for a mention of stalking. I’ve been doxxed twice, I still get sent death threats, harrassed online, harassed in real life, and my stalker used this ship as an example of why I had to fall in love with him if he just kept trying. I personally am convinced that they’re too stupid to realize how hypocritical they are when they say don’t apply it to real life. Fiction always affects reality, even when it’s not blatantly obvious, and people really need to be more conscious of that and the fact that there are levels to it. A character’s favorite color may not have a big impact in real life, but normalizing abusive relationships has a massive negative impact, as seen by all the victims sharing their stories on this blog and those who share their stories elsewhere, because let’s face it, this nasty ship is not the only time an abusive relationship has been romantisized.
That being said, this does not mean all GrUvia shippers are stalkers/abusers. Fiction does affect reality, but that doesn't mean it controls reality. People have moral compasses, and sometimes they like to explore weird/amoral/dark things in fiction, and it's better to do that in ficiton than in real life. The problem lies within the fact that the vast majority of them that I have personally interacted with (<- reread the bold part and use your reading comprehension skills please) have been willing to doxx, harass, or abuse others. Pro-Juvia and Pro-grUvia shippers are notorious for these things, but some anti-Juvia and Anti-GrUvia people are too. The problem lies within the attitude of the shippers even more so than the ship itself. If we could both have conversations about it, with respect that neither side is going to change the other's thoughts and opinions, then the fandom would be a much happier and safer place.
Personally, I would love if we could just coexist and enjoy Fairy Tail together. Alas, it is not meant to be, hence the creation and necessity of this vent space)
On some level, I do feel bad for the GrUvia fanbase that they have to exist with so much scrutiny. But then I remember the content of the ship itself, and I genuinely think that they've only ever made it worse for themselves by being aggressive.
If the fandom was able to have discussions like this, to talk about ships through a critical lens and have an actual conversation about this, the ship would still be awful. But the fandom, itself, wouldn't be viewed as this group of people with the mental complexity of toddlers.
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based on my experience with interacting with various parts of the fandom, this is how i see it:
swifties: covers the entire fanbase and includes everyone. to be a swiftie, you just have to love taylor, her music, and become an insomniac clown with a complicated murder board. i also like to think they generally go with what taylor says when it comes to her relationships&sexuality and stays on the surface of that not digging further and stay in their own lane.
hetlors: swifties who are insistent that taylor is a straight woman and could never write anything that could mean otherwise. they will dox and harass gaylors for invading taylor's privacy and treating her like a fictional character before proceeding to "joke" about her sex life and virginity.
(i call people who casually think taylor's straight and stay in their lane straightlors. hetlors is a bit strong word with a negative connotation that helps gaylors to avoid them... also hetlor sounds a little something like something)
red scarf swifties: those who make jokes about taylor's sex lives repeatedly.
gaylor: umbrella term for swifties who think taylor is some type of wlw.
(also see: acelor, bilor, panlor, etc)
kaylor, haylor, toe, swiftgron, etc (shippers): shippers/truthers.
secret sessioners: swifties who has been to a secret session or more. they are usually chill but also some of them act like they're taylor's best friends.
taylor: not sure can anyone help me with this one?
ooh this is so so interesting because i cant say i agree with several things listed here but regardless it’s interesting to see your perspective and thank you for sharing it. my general impression from reading what you wrote is that wow it feels like there’s been such a stratification of labels by the new generation in recent years!
i thought i would share my thoughts below. i am by no means a standard barer nor do i think anyone is but i think it’s interesting to share and communicate differences in our internet culture
~~~
-while i recognize swifties as an umbrella term for all fans of taylor, i often use it to mean fans who don’t believe taylor is anything either than straight
-maybe i’m off base but to the best of my recollection the term hetlor did not exist as recently as several years ago. i feel like it’s a term that next generation gaylors (see below) created to discuss the behavior of some swifties towards their group specifically, not necessarily towards kaylors etc.
-for the reason you point out i don’t use the term, i sometimes call what you call “straightlors” something like “your everyday swiftie”
-for what it’s worth i’ve never heard the term red scarve swiftie
-gaylor used to be an umbrella term but i don’t feel it’s been that way for several years. this is just from a kaylor’s perspective. for awhile there gaylor, to some of us, meant an umbrella term for people who think taylor is with another woman either than karlie. idk if this makes sense lol but there’s a very fine distinction that i feel on like an instinctual level 😆 for this reason i often draw distinctions in my mind between old guard gaylors and next generation gaylors because the goals and tenants and rules and history of these groups are really different and the way you would communicate with either group as a kaylor is different
-for what it’s worth i’ve never seen the terms acelor bilor or panlor used in the wild, though i would obviously understand what a person meant by the context if it was used
-i assume with the / you meant shippers OR believers and thank you if you did mean to make that distinction. just to clarify this because i could write a book but i don’t ship kaylor 🙈 and i think a lot of remaining kaylors don’t ship kaylor. and what i mean by that is, a lot of us are here not because we swoon over the idea of kaylor being real but we are here because somehow we find ourselves at a point where we really think it is or could be. sure many of us swoon over what we see but it’s not… fantasy football to us…? i don’t know if this makes any sense lmao um… okay i’ll give an example, a few weeks back i saw a tweet that said, im paraphrasing here “i confess! i don’t find karlie hot at all! i prefer to imagine taylor with zoe, it’s so much hotter!” and i think this is the epitome of shipper thinking. like when i tell you i laughed out loud because it’s like… the reality of who taylor is dating has nothing to do with what anyones preferences are 🙈 anyway.. this shipper vs believer distinction is of value to me
-i thought it was super interesting that you drew a distinction for people who have been to secret sessions. maybe i’ve just never been in a community situation where that hierarchy would drive the direction of discussion. i guess there’s a little bit of a “taylor liked/ taylor followed” thing in earlier tumblr culture but anyway kudos to you for writing this one out because it wouldn’t have crossed my mind
~~~
anyway thank you for writing out your anon i feel like i got a peek into a different worldview and it was cool
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how can you be so open in liking jasper? i'm terrified of being considered a racist due to his backstory, i'm not calling you racist but how do you deal with that reputation he has?
the same way I deal with liking anything "problematic," tbh. I trust myself to be able to read and think critically. I develop my own transformative reading of the character. I tag my content so that it's easy for anyone who wants to avoid it to do so. and that's...pretty much it, tbh.
at some point, you gotta accept that there will always be someone who considers you a bigot for liking and interacting with pretty much any fictional content. it's the nature of the internet, and this site in particular. "if you like steven universe, you're a transphobe." "if you like the witcher, you're ableist." "if you ship destiel, you're fetishizing mlm." "if you ship zutara, you're pro-colonialism" and so on. in the case of Twilight, there's a lot of pure, grade A racism in the source material, so of course that's gonna be reflected in the fandom, both in terms of fans behaving in racist ways, conscious or unconsciously, and other fans calling them out. that's an inevitable part of any fan community.
I learned long ago that my taste in fictional whatever does not define me or reflect my character/beliefs, and here's how: I made a friend in college. let's call her Naomi. Naomi loves "problematic" ships of all kinds—villain/heroine ships, abusive ships, age gaps, basically any kind of toxic relationship—and she's not shy about it. she has lots of fun writing and reading and posting about them. when I first got to know her, I was kind of shocked—how could such a kind person be into such dark shit?
so I took a step back and asked myself: do I think Naomi is a Bad Person because of the media she enjoys? do I believe she's out there abusing her romantic partners, or encouraging our friends to get into or stay in abusive relationships?
the answer was "no, of course not." I mean, duh. I wouldn't like her and want to hang out with her were that the case. from the outside, it was very easy to compare Naomi's favorite shows/characters vs her real-life actions and behavior (how she treated others, what her core beliefs were, etc) and see that there was no correlation.
so I learned to extend myself the same courtesy when it comes to self-awareness. whether or not I am a "bad" person will never be decided by whether or not I like Jasper from Twilight, lol. if other people wanna conflate those two things and consider me a racist, that's fine—I can't control them or their opinions and I don't need to. they don't know me as well as I know me, so why should I believe them over myself? as long as they're not actively doxxing or harassing me, it doesn't hurt me (and if they are doxxing/harassing, I am happy to block/report them.)
I'm not gonna post, like, long, disclaim-y, defensive screeds about how I'm Totally Not A Racist despite liking this racist character in a racist canon by a racist author, y'know? that doesn't help anyone or prove anything. instead, I let my actions speak for themselves. I'm not interested in taste-policing, I'm interested in real actions with real results that help real people. I support POC with my vote, my activism, and my $$. I examine my own internal biases and try to be aware of them/work on them/not let them influence how I treat others. and I put real people before fictional characters always and do my best to treat them with kindness.
in return, I hope others will also judge me by my actions and my character rather than my taste in fiction. but if they don't, that's outside my control—they're free to think whatever they want, and to block me.
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There's a post on Facebook I always see and I fucking hate it with a passion, but I know if I say anything people will dogpile me.
"Pedophiles aren't just that guy on the news. They're also your 25yo homeboy who goes after 16yo girls."
And other such things. And the comments are flooded with people going "yeah! And the woman who's 20 who dates a 17 year old guy!" and "and the 40yo dude going after 25yo women."
And I'm just like. That's not. None of this is what pedophile means. Literally none of it.
"But its under the age of consent!"
Its still not pedophilia. ITS STILL NOT FUCKING PEDOPHILIA.
It viscerally bothers and offends me when antis call two adults dating pedophilia-- and despite their assertions, a 25 year old dating a 40 year old is two adults that are allowed to make their own choices. It makes me sick to see them rant about how it's "basically the same situation". Like to the point that I wanna throw up.
I've mentioned this before, but the only reason my childhood abuser STOPPED hurting me is because I got "too old". I was no longer attractive to them, because I was no longer a child. And this happens to a startling and painful number of CSA survivors. Every time an anti says that two adults with an age gap or aged up characters are pedophilia, I kinda wanna fucking scream. It's offensive and dangerous to water shit down the way they do. It's painful to watch them diminish the severity of these things in real time. But if you point this shit out to them you're "excusing" it... Or worse, they'll tell you that you must miss/must have liked what happened to you. And there's nothing more inhumane or disgusting you can say to someone who had to live through that kind of hell.
Not gonna lie, last night when bitch-face McAsshat kept insisting that all my friends are child molesters because they were convinced that "pro-ship" somehow means pedophile, my vision about went red. Talk about ignorance. Talk about full-blown fucking audacity. Not harassing people over fictional shit makes you a child abuser? Treating people like human beings means that you hurt kids??? I would never in my life hope that someone went through what I did, I'd never wish that on my worst enemy, but gods I wish I could explain to these people how disgusting they are.
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shipper discourse as a mere concept sounded so fxcking ridiculous to me that I vowed to stay far away from that burning landfill way before I started getting into ships myself. I'm quite proud how much I was able to keep this promise to myself, even though I definitely do have some lingering Chronically Online™️ tendencies. but antis annoyed me enough at this point that I need to rant just this once about them.
sometimes I go on Pinterest to add some fanart to my Fleet, and stumble upon comment sections full of people genuinely losing their collective minds over
a.) ships as a concept — this one is super funny, there's always that one rando who goes "but I thought X is married/they hate each other/Y is straight?!" and then there's a bunch of people politely explaining what ships are and how they work
b.) problematic ships — this one's just fxcking exhausting
how the fxck did we get here, where people genuinely judge each other's character based on which fictional people they ship with each other?! not only that, but they seem to be completely invested in this moral crusade, as if it matters?! my dudes it's not real?!?!
like, there's capitalism and war out there, there's a million different problematic people irl, and this is the hill you wish to die on?!
are you guys that bored? is your life so perfect and without sin you feel the need to harass people over the pettiest bs imaginable? why do you want to be angry? isn't it exhausting? how do you have this much energy to waste?
you can just scroll past, it's so easy! you can just go "ew" and then fxcking leave, I do it all the time, it works!
and like full offense, but the arguments mostly just sxck. I've seen antis objecting to (I added examples from my own Fleet to confess my fic-sins, lmao):
— age gaps. just age gaps. they're 3 years apart? the older one is literally a pedophile. the younger one is a victim. (I've seen people object to the age gap between Hannigram, and I fxcking died laughing, like, they're cannibals, Sharon)
— minors. teenagers as a concept no longer exist, all people under 18 are dumbdumb babies, and any suggestion that they might just have an interest in sex is pedophilia. aging them up is clearly just an excuse so you can imagine them fxck, nevermind the fact that aging is a thing that actually happens to people. (Drarry, TomArry, JayTim, Scorbus, Blackice)
— pseudoincest. it's kinda in the name, it's not actually incest, but because it's incest adjacent, they treat it as if it were the same. (JayDick, JayTim)(Scamandercest is not pseudo, you can take me to hel now, or something)
— bad people. what is this, Hayes Code 2.0, Electric Boogalo?! sorry to tell you that authors aren't obligated to be the hand of the gods punishing morally corrupt characters for their sins. I suggest sticking to fairytales if that bothers you. (KylUx, Hannigram, Drarry, BlackIce)
anyways, All I Want For Yule is that antis get a fxcking life and stop harassing people over fictional characters.
love it when antis list off the problematic aspects of a ship as a gotcha, as if we weren't already aware and as if it wasn't literally part of the appeal of the ship in the first place
the problematic aspects are either ignored or utilized as moral spice ✨
and let me remind you that, again:
IT'S FICTIONAL
#rant post#pro shipping#problematic ships#i needed to get this out of my system#it's been brewing for a while now
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Twitter is the most toxic app and Valu shippers are so defensive because they're literally obsessed with Danna and Jorge together to the point they were harassing Danna the other day to congratulate Jorge on his birthday and eventually she had to leave a comment on his birthday post even when it was already over. It was so so bad ( even after she tweeted many times that she's happy now and begged them to respect her privacy and that she doesn't need their approval to date whoever she wants) I have no idea why this turned into a whole essay lmaoo you can tell I was mad
lol I saw some of the crazy insta shippers replying to her comment being like “thank god, now I won’t have to commit suicide” ....... are these people okay??
I’m just imagining a scenario in which complete strangers harass me to wish my ex a happy birthday & then reply to the comment acting like that means I’m still into him?? just because they’re celebrities doesn’t mean you get to treat them like fictional characters!!
for real, anyone shipping real people and being this batshit crazy about it needs to stop
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I need your help friend, the fandom is at stake: can you do a quick recap of why shipping isn't activism? And I don't mean just in terms of antis, but also the anti-backlash where people defend their ships by trying to prove they're actually progressive (which would still imply you need to prove your ship is not harmful before shipping it). Fans may have good intentions and mean no harm, but social justice is not achieved through fantasy.
what a good question. let me see if I can do this justice with a good answer.
Why Shipping is Not Activism
(edited on August 6th, 2018, 1 year after initial writing)
First off: let’s define ‘shipping’ as ‘desiring two characters to have romantic and/or sexual interactions and using social media or fanworks to share this desire with others.’ So: specifically looking at shipping as a social activity here, because I hope we can all agree that ‘shipping it’ - simply wishing for two characters to have some kind of interaction in your head - is not activism because it’s thoughts, which on their own nobody else knows about and thus can’t have an impact.
Shipping as activism is mainly talked about in the context of being ‘queer/LGBT representation’, and everything else is treated as secondary.* So I’ll be talking about this primarily from that POV.
Okay.
shipping is not activism because shipping doesn’t do two important things that activism does:
shipping does not generate or act as mainstream representation
shipping does not increase awareness or change social values
and that’s okay. Shipping doesn’t need to do these things because shipping takes place in a microcosm. Fandom is but a tiny, tiny fraction of internet and social activity as a whole. No matter how ‘progressive’ we collectively are, only in the rarest cases will we make a meaningful impact on society as a whole.
Shipping serves a different, but no less important purpose, which I’ll get into below.
That’s the short version. the long version is below.
Shipping is not activism because:
Shipping is a fandom-specific activity and fandom doesn’t make much of a social impact. We get talked about a lot by the creators because we’re the people most likely to have contact with them and provide feedback on their content; we have an impact on creators in that sense. But apart from coming to cons and talking on social media, when we get mainstream attention it’s almost always to talk about how weird we are. Also, we don’t cause social change. We can fan over something that already exists, but we can’t cause a show with better representation to be created.
Because of this:
Meaningful, mainstream representation of LGBT/queer relationships come from mainstream media, and fandom is not the main force acting on mainstream media productions. Remember when korrasami became canon in the last few minutes of the last episode of Korra because the creators knew about the shippers? Congratulations: you’re looking at an outlier that took a lot of very specific circumstances and luck to have happen. And most importantly: it wasn’t done to please the shippers. Shippers may have given them the idea, but it was done because canon korrasami would create visible bisexual/LGBT representation. It was possible because the show was only airing online, to a smaller audience, and because of the herculean efforts of LGBT/queer activists over the last century to get our collective visibility and acceptability as high as it is (and yes, we have a long way to go, but we’re miles past where we were even 10 years ago.)
Current fandom seems to carry the belief that if we just ship hard enough and loud enough, the creators of an ongoing mainstream media will reward us by making our favorite ship canon.** The reality is we rarely, if ever, make a meaningful impact on the direction that canon takes. We’re a small, small part of the consumer base - a loud one, but small! We’re often not the aimed-at demographic, either, so pleasing us is the last thing the execs trying to make a buck are thinking about. The material we’re fanning over is already old news to producers; short canons are usually already finished by the time we receive it, and longer ones are at least a season ahead in production time. (If we do make an impact, we won’t see it for at least a year or more.) Shows must meet decency standards, and LGBT/queer relationships are still seen as higher-rated than their cishet counterparts. Executives care about what will sell ad space or toys more than what fandom wants.
The fact of the matter is we have the cause and effect backwards.
Ships being ‘good representation’ is a function of increased mainstream media representation of marginalized identities, not the other way around. When media was entirely full of characters who were white cis men, we shipped white cis men. And as media slowly stops having nothing but white cis men, we’re … still shipping white cis men a lot, because there’s still a lot of them and there’s still a societal bias that tells us that white cis men are the most important/interesting people (and simultaneously, because they are unmarked, we can’t accidentally fall into stereotype pits while fanning them), but we’re shipping more and more non-white, non-cis, non-male characters too.
Real social activism leads to increased media representation - like the reclaiming of the word ‘queer’ in the late 80′s/early 90′s leading to a TV show called ‘Queer as Folk’ and featuring gay characters. And increased media representation leads to more marginalized characters for fandom to ship.
While transformative fandom does, to an extent, change things from canon to represent ourselves more - or just to suit our fancy! - canon always reigns supreme and is the most widespread version of the characters. Canon becoming more diverse will always have more of an effect on fandom than fandom being diverse/having diverse content will ever have on canon.
Besides:
The desire to see ships become canon is not primarily motivated by generating healthy representation of marginalized identities. Fans have been wanting their favorite ships to become canon since the Stone Ages. The Harry Potter fandom wars were all about what was most canon: Harry/Hermione, Hermione/Ron, or Harry/Ginny. Notably: Draco/Harry is not one of the pairings I list, because nobody thought there was the remotest chance that Draco/Harry would ever become canon. It’s only recently that LGBT/queer rep in particular has been making a meaningful appearance in mainstream media, and suddenly slash ships have entered the ‘will it be canon!?’ fray. And some mlm fans feel they have more ‘right’ to canon because mlm ships are LGBT/queer rep.
Here’s the thing: if this was really about representation, then we’d all be celebrating if any mlm pairing became canon. No matter which pairing is ‘more progressive’, any LGBT/queer canon representation is better than none. But (surprise!) it’s not; the ‘queer rep!’ battle cry is just an additional cannonball in the arsenal of ongoing ship wars.*** And I venture to say that most mlm shippers engaged in a ship war would rather see an unrelated het pairing become canon than their rival mlm ship.
And this is because:
Shipping is not, and never has been, primarily about creating healthy marginalized representation.
Don’t get me wrong: transformative fandom is heavily LGBT/queer/mentally ill/disabled/otherwise underrepresented, and we often create transformative fanworks that bring our identities into the story. That’s awesome self-fulfillment, and it can really bless and excite fellow fans who see fandom content that makes them feel more welcomed and recognized. However.
Generating marginalized representation isn’t the primary motive for shipping. We ship out of love. We see the dynamics between two characters and think ‘oh, that’s hot’ or ‘I’d like to see more of that’. We ship for fun. We ship because we think two characters would look good together. We ship because we imagine ourselves as one character and have a crush on the other. We ship things for many, many reasons, many I haven’t mentioned here, maybe as many reasons as there are people in fandom doing shippy things. And to that end, I’m sure that some people do decide what to ship purely because they believe it represents minority groups that need representation - but it would be too much to say that’s the main reason people ship things.
Shipping doesn’t need to be about creating healthy marginalized representation because:
Fiction is not reality; a person can ship the ‘right’ ships and still be a bigot IRL. and visa versa. Because we interact with fiction and reality in different ways, there are people who really love mlm ships but still think gay marriage is icky. On the other hand, a person can be the loudest activist for LGBT/queer causes in real life and only ship het ships in fandom, just because the dynamics of het ships pings their fancy more.
Shipping as activism preaches to the choir. Shipping being a fandom-specific activity, and many of us being oppressed ourselves, shipping the ‘right’ ship to increase awareness in the microcosm of fandom isn’t really accomplishing anything. Most of us are ourselves LGBT/queer, or friends with people who are LGBT/queer. Most of us are aware of how much pain the lack of representation in mainstream media brings on. And most of us are sensitive to the fact that we’re not the only oppressed person in fandom space and are willing to learn more about how we can help other oppressed people.
If I could sum up the problems of current fandom, it’s that we assume that nobody else is #woke (even though most of us are sufferers).
In that sense, shipping the ‘right’ ship doesn’t bring more awareness; it acts as a signal to others that you have awareness, and hopefully protects you from being erased or harassed as an ignorant asshole (’cishet’).
Most importantly:
Shipping isn’t activism, but it does something else great: it lets marginalized fans express and indulge themselves in any way that pleases them.
- fandom is hugely made of underrepresented minorities, so shipping is a way that we express ourselves and relate to one another - whether those ships are ‘progressive’ or not. So, so many of us deal with social stigma or harassment or hate in our real lives; we consume media to get away from that, and we indulge in fandom to get away from that.
Most of us are, just by existing and demanding space in the world, activists for the rights of the marginalized and oppressed.
I’ve had some people disagree with me on this, but I stand by it. many people in fandom have orientations/identities/nd/etc that politicize our existence. When we are ‘out’ - when we are visible - and vocally demanding recognition for our lives by being visible and refusing to compromise, we are activists by existence. And many of us are allies, taking political action on behalf of others. and many of us are both - marginalized this way, allies to people marginalized that way.
the actions we take as activists in the real world are the ones that matter - not fandom.
Fandom is a space for us to play with each other and connect over something fun and pleasant, and those fun and pleasant things don’t have to be activist things. We’re allowed to take a break.
The importance of activism and representation is to benefit the marginalized and oppressed, letting us be recognized and less stigmatized, and deconstructing the social and political structures that work against us leading fulfilling lives. When we use shipping the ‘right’ ship as a bludgeon to attack one another, we are literally defeating the purpose of our own causes. We’re stigmatizing each other for our fandom interests. And we’re certainly not deconstructing any social structures that harm us!
In conclusion: The way we can be most activist in transformative fandom is, no joke, to care more about the fact that almost everyone else here is marginalized too than that one another’s ships aren’t marginalized enough.
fandom is different from the way it used to be: it’s more visible, more mixed with non-fandom, and easier to access. certainly, it’s important to make clear where we’re addressing relationship stuff for fandom versus relationship stuff for real life. there’s value in taking steps to counteract the harm done by lack of education about sex, consent, and healthy relationships, particularly as LGBT+/queer people, or people who need access to & information about reproductive health care taking care of one another in a world that doesn’t care enough about us.
but educating each other doesn’t happen through a ship: it happens through open, friendly communication. shipping can open the door to communication, but it can’t substitute for straightforward honesty.
Let’s foster healthy interaction and honest communication wherever we can: by celebrating each other and our creative endeavors - instead of creatively locking us down with terror of getting erased or driven out of fandom by demanding everything be treated as a teaching opportunity.
be kind to one another.
(the rest of the world is not going to do it for us.)
–
*In talking about ships as representation we generally start with ‘this ship is queer/LGBT’ and then use all other axes of oppression to prove which ship is ‘more progressive’, i.e. - F1nnPoe and Ky1ux are both mlm, but F1nnPoe is more pure because it’s a black man and a Latino man as opposed to two white men. (Occasionally race will also be talked of as the primary point of value, depending on the fandom.)
**On a side note, this whole paragraph is also why it’s unlikely that fandom being ugly will ever cause a show to be cancelled or a pairing will get changed in canon because some fans were nastier than others. We’re like bugs with stingers: scary and painful but ultimately not that impactful (unless you’re allergic, I guess, but forget that part of the metaphor).
***This is part of where the ‘I have to prove my ship is wholesome/their ship is evil’ stuff comes from: ‘proving’ to creators that your ship is the ‘better’ queer representation because it either covers more marginalized bases or is ‘more pure’, making it less objectionable for mainstream representation. (the joke is that bigots don’t care how pure an LGBT/queer ship is: they’re gonna still think it’s awful because it’s LGBT/queer.)
PS - I don’t think this answer really addresses why arguing about purity of ships is a bad plan, but this is already so long that I’ll address that somewhere else I think.
#shipping is not activism#in defense of shipping#queer representation#this is an americentric post#in defense of freedom to fandom#*chanting* SHIP WAR SHIP WAR SHIP WAR
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Imagine coming to someone's ask box to tell them (or in any way insinuate) that they're a mysoginist because they prefer/identify more strongly with a male character over a female one.
Like literally this anti rethoric. "if you like X character you hate women! You should like Y instead!" has the same flavor as "X ship is immoral! You should ship Y instead!"
Yall didn't get the memo that THIS IS FICTION. The characters I like and the ships I ship say nothing of what kind of person I am in real life, that is determined by how I treat ACTUAL REAL PEOPLE. Which is to say, if you harass someone over a character or a ship then you're a piece of shit who harasses people, plain and simple.
This is gonna be a bit of a vent-post. I think the reason I have such bad faith readings of people coming into askboxes or comments of Jason Todd fanblogs and demanding that they read more of Helena Bertinelli, or Cassandra Cain, or Mia Dearden instead, is that me and many of my mutuals are transmasc and being told "we hate women" because of lack of association hits in a different way*. The gender of your blorbo does not define whether or not you are being a good feminist. And no one should feel pressured to deny themselves the character they are passionate about in favor of superficial signalling. Being a feminist is done in everyday life, interactions and decisions, you're going to have a hard time trying to identify who is a real and proper feminist based off of favorite characters.
*clarification: needing to be a woman or act like a woman is a terf talking point, so especially if you are transmasc you should not be pressured to identify with a female character.
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background (and sorry this is long; it's a necessary foundation; apologies if you're familiar with all this):
AO3 is an archive for basically all fanfic. Anything that's legal in the US, which is a very broad range.
Before AO3, nobody'd made an archive that was that open. And also, a lot of people who wrote fic, put it on narrow-focus archives: single fandom, sometimes single-pairing, sometimes "these 5 fandoms that our friends are all into." Those archives had standards based on the owner's preferences; if you didn't agree, you hosted your fic somewhere else.
There were also eight zillion Yahoogroups for different types of fanfic. And again: whoever owned the email list, set the standards.
Cue AO3. Open to everyone. And really useful. Had a tagging system loosely based on Delicious, which had never been seen before in a fandom setting. And it was free, and people could host ALL their stuff there, instead of some on one archive and some on another, yay.
...only. This now meant that people who had never run into each other before, were now seeing "that horrible stuff" that was banned from their email list when they looked for their favorite character or pairing.
I thiiiink the earliest "anti vs proship" stuff, at least with those labeles, was from Voltron fandom, but I'm not in Voltron so I'm not sure. But there was a lot of yelling about "it's immoral for anyone to ship Sheith or Shaladin."
Followed by the "proship" side saying "um... people can write what they want?"
And from there it spread into other fandoms and grew into a general debate.
The "anti" side, as far as I can tell, is "it is immoral and possibly illegal to write certain types of fiction, and people who read it are at best mentally damaged and at worst active predators in the community."
The "pro ship" side is: "People can write what they want and read what they want, as long as they're not hurting real human beings."
The anti side insists that allowing the "immoral" fiction to be posted and shared is harming actual people. ...they are not supporting this claim with any kind of science. (It is a reasonable claim on its face - people are affected by what they read, what they watch. Where it falls apart is treating fanfic with a few thousand hits - not all of whom are actual readers - as if it were the new Star Wars that's influencing half a billion people. And with claiming that "anyone who reads X topic must want X to exist in the real world." People watch heist movies without wanting to become thieves.)
The parts of the "anti" claims that are, "If you ship X, you are gross! Immoral! Depraved! Evil" - those are fine. They're allowed (you're allowed, we're all allowed) to decide that someone else is a Bad Person based on whatever criteria they want.
The "anti" communities that decide, "and therefore it's okay if we harass, doxx, and suicide bait the people who read & write those kinds of fic," are not.
Over on the proship side, we are fighting for two things:
The right to not be harassed or assaulted based on our taste in fiction, and especially, the right for teens who are figuring out who they are and how life works, not to be harassed for exploring dark ideas, and
The right to create and consume the art we find compelling, regardless of whether someone else thinks it's immoral.
And a hell of a lot of us on the proship side of things are queer women who recognize the "anti" rhetoric as the same arguments we faced when we first came out... "do you have to be like that? Couldn't you just... not mention it? Why can't you at least try to be more normal? Okay, maybe it's not illegal, but it's... not right, either. No, I'm not going to explain why; decent people just know." And so on.
And the arguments aren't 100% parallel, but the overall pattern is really damned familiar.
What is the whole proship discourse? Like, what's the point?
LGBT and System dyscourse is obviously to fight for the communities rights and proper education on those subject matters, but what is the overlying point of Proship/Antiship discourse?
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