#to be clear: i dont really like the term transandrophobia

[vang0bus]

the transandrophobia discourse is so fucking stupid. objectively transmasc people DO experience specific forms of discrimination - usually stemming from misogyny but sometimes from actual misandry* coming from, say, radfems - that transfem people dont. that doesnt mean transmascs are inherently more opressed than transfems. no one is saying that. it's just different. its ok to have different words for different types of discrimination. it doesnt mean its worse or more violent than transmisogyny, just that there are unique elements to it that are generally not a part of transmisogynistic discrimination. stop worrying about if youre winning or losing the opression olympics for a second and let people talk about their experiences

*no, i dont believe that men are systemically opressed and discriminated against. but if youve looked at a terf blog for more than two minutes you KNOW there are people who really, violently hate all men and think theyre literal monsters. yeah, this might not affect cis men in their daily lives, but it does affect trans men and transmascs, who unlike cis men are much more likely to be the targets of terfs and radfems who think all men are violent monsters

[toytulini]

god this stupid fucking intracommunity infighting bullshit never ends and im so god damn tired. stop it. and if youre fucking discoursing this stupid shit you should have to add a fucking disclaimer to your fucking posts at least im tired of having to search yalls blogs when smth slightly off about your wording that i cant explain has me like hmmmmm and then i end up right and i really dont want to be

[thesuncantreachyouhere]

Im sorry to bother you but I saw you making a protest about transandrophobia and needed someone to vent to. I went down a rabbit hole and found a really popular transfemme blog called pl@idos (censored just in case) that just... constantly says transandrophobic bullshit and none of the other transfemmes bat an eye?! Justifying calling us slurs like theyfab, sheit and shemab because trans women can't oppress trans men or some bullshit, it made me so fucking sick. And now I'm panicking because I was always for solidarity between transmascs and transfemmes but now I'm so shook seeing so much support on the post, like 3k notes. Now I feel like I can only trust other transmascs because what if they don't actually take me seriously? And they just call me those terms behind my fucking back? I'm sorry if I'm bothering you again I just really needed to vent /gen

ur not bothering me! also i spent like an hour writing a really long reply, but it was getting too long, so im gonna summarize really quick

your feelings are valid, 1000%. there are a few big accounts sharing and saying really, really awful shit about transmascs. because some people heard "trans men are men" and took it to mean "trans men have the same societal power and privilege as cis men and that means we can degrade and humiliate them without recourse or backlash" (not that you should treat cis men like that either tbqh?)

let me make it clear i understand where you're coming from, i felt the same way as you did for a good while. at the same time we cant let a few dogshit people ruin our trust of an entire community, then we're no better than them

i lost all hope in the queer community because of this fucking website, but i got it back when i started going to in-person queer events/meetings/social groups. bc to be honest most trans people dont even know this discourse is happening, let alone are actively bigoted towards transmascs in any way

it also helped me to keep in mind that social media is literally designed to piss you off as much as possible, and that most of the people saying these awful things about transmascs are probably deeply unhappy and lashing out bc their lives are miserable

its not a coincidence that when you open up these peoples blogs, they tend to be posting about how lonely and sad they are 24/7

[horce-divorce]

"Trans men don't need an intersectional word that goes beyond "transphobia" because being a man is not an oppressed identity, it's easier for them to get resources, and they're not affected by transmisogyny"

Words spoken by people who have never met another GNC person offline (or another trans person who wasn't white) even once tbqfh. And yeah access to those spaces is difficult and often gatekept to shit so I don't think that's anyone's fault, esp not transfems. Your brutal exclusion is never your fault. Still, I think it is possible to have these CRUCIAL conversations about transmisogyny and how transfems are affected... without making sweeping statements about what other trans people do or do not experience. It might be easier for people to check their transmisogyny if they could understand how it does in fact affect them sometimes, their behavior, language, and the spaces they frequent, in addition to how it perpetuates this awful exclusion. Being hypervisible and yet constantly excluded IS something that transfems should have a word for. That IS something I do not understand the pain of as a transmasc. It must make them feel utterly insane. By all means, coin more words! It enriches these conversations when we can relate to each other more and we have more language for the discussions we're having. We want to tear down the walls keeping us apart, not build more.

to be clear, I don't think tma/tme are "unnecessary." Transmisogyny is real and transfems do really experience uniquely awful shit, especially from within the community. But that in an of itself is not a unique experience. Being excluded from "women and nonbinary only spaces" is actually not a uniquely transfem experience. So many transmascs do NOT benefit from patriarchy and I am tired of this claim coming from non-transmascs.

HOW we all get policed by our in-groups presents differently, but policing each others experiences is not something that bridges understanding. And I'm sorry but in 3 years of this convo I've not once seen someone bring up tma/tme to discuss transfems without entirely dismissing swaths of other queer people in the process. Maybe im not seeing the good faith takes, idk.

A lot of other bad-faith misinformation is STILL getting passed around about the coiner of the term "transandrophobia" and what it supposedly means, and how the term itself is transmisogynistic. None of that ever matches up with what I actually see in transandrophobia discussions. I see a lot of diverse people discussing and relating to transandrophobia, specifically a lot of tpoc and intersex people, even a lot of transfems. The people who talk ABOUT 'transandropobia truthers' present a much different idea of the discourse we're having than what i actually see. That inconsistency is a red flag for me.

Tldr i think the concept of tma/tme is fine actually, but I disagree with the usage of the term tme specifically. Terms describing what tma/tme are getting at AND transandrophobia can and should coexist. These are not mutually exclusive ideas actually. apparenrly i cant bring up one without addressing the other bc nobody has good faith conversations anymore.

Basically just. Please don't tell me what I have or haven't experienced, and I won't claim to know your pain intimately, either. we can still relate to each other over the ways we've been let down. I feel like that should be the goal, not determining who does or does not deserve to use certain words.

Also as an asexual, the whole "transandrophobia truther" dismissal feels eerily similar to the rampant ages-old acephobia from tumblr we know and love. You guys love mocking "novel" (to you) discourse and then 5+ years down the line acting like you weren't telling us to commit sepukku for suggesting that ace people can be oppressed for our orientation because we "don't even experience sexual attraction and you cant be oppressed for something you dont experience."

self determination is important for all of us for many reasons. I won't tell anyone else what words to use for themselves. If you're TMA youre TMA, end of story. But dont tell me by definition that makes me TME or that I have to use terms I feel are incomplete or inadequately describe my own experience. I'm not asking anyone else to do that.

Anyway.