#this was gonna be a whole long post about my experiences being harassed

[cherrielatte]

genuine question do you even understand what a proshipper is ? like youre okay with people romanticizing pedophilia and shipping minors and adults ? you think thats okay?? GENUINE question.

Hello! Judging from the way you worded this - I'm gonna be honest: I don't think you know what proshipping is. I was very close to not answering this because it was sounding a bit in bad faith ( and this isn't the first time I've gotten belligerent asks on the same topic) But well, I decided to give it a shot and give benefit of the doubt.

 I know it's common ground to jump onto proshipping with the idea that it means you romanticize pedophilia, abuse, toxicity, etc. It's the typical high ground taken when people hear that dark fiction enjoyers exist. But that's not actually what it means. It just means that YOU, as an individual, understand that a drawing is not the same thing as human being. Written characters are not the same as human beings. Harassing REAL people over a non existent character because they put them into situations that make you uncomfortable says more about the harasser than the writer/artist. Proshipping is about taking personal responsibility for your experience online. Not long ago, the idea of a proshipper was just considered having fandom etiquette (ie: Don't like; Don't read type of tag lines. ) I'm a proshipper and there are plenty of things I don't like & make me uncomfortable. But I also understand that I can easily not engage. I can filter tags so I don't see it. I can block people that make that kind of content. I can refuse to click on something clearly labeled as the content I don't like. I can control what I see. And I can also understand that that if someone draws something I don't like it doesn't mean anything about them in real life nor what they enjoy in real life. Besides, a lot of people that consider themselves proshippers are victims of abuse or have had to endure traumatic events in their lives. Engaging in what you might consider dark fiction allows people to cope and navigate through complex emotion/trauma and express themselves in ways they are not allowed to or haven't allowed themselves to. I've seen some people say "I've been through trauma and I don't engage in proshipping." And okay, I'm happy for you. But not everyone copes the same way you do. And no one should be held to the same standard. If we were all carbon copies of each other, maybe I would understand that argument. But that's not the case. I should also mention, that it's become a bit standard for people to only excuse those that have been through trauma to make dark fiction. But only if they publicly acknowledge what kind of trauma they have endured. I am 100% against this way of thinking. I do not think it is anyone's right to demand an account of my or anyone's personal traumas just to validate the existence of certain piece of art. No one is entitled to anyone's abuse story. If a person is willing to share, because they want to, that's the personal decision of the individual. But look, much of the horror genre (movies, books, tv, etc) wouldn't exist if we put these high censorship rules onto art as a whole and unfortunately, I see this happening more and more these days like discussed in this post about someone's experience in publishing gothic horror.

Going back to an earlier point, you have to really understand that the characters are fake. 100% fake. If I ship Sora ( KH) and Ash (Pokemon) neither of them are going to be upset about it because they don't exist. If I draw them kissing, it is a drawing of anime looking characters kissing. That's all. They don't look anything like real human people. Wasting energy fighting over fictional characters is just that. Wasting time and energy. Who are you saving? Ash? Sora? They don't need help, because they aren't real. Fight for real people that actually exist. I have seen people outside of the Soriku fandom genuinely upset about people shipping Riku x Sora because they are underage! Mostly because they are both male but without fail, they always slap on the argument: "they are kids, you sicko!" But you know why they go to that? Because assuming the moral high ground wins over arguments quickly. People are eager to be superficially perceived as morally good. I have seen people ship Riku x Ansem SOD, which could fall into that age gap - problematic shipping you referred to in your ask. But you know what? I get it. I see people interpret their relationship as one of abuse, metaphorical SA, manipulation, etc. I completely understand and see that interpretation and where it stems from. And unfortunately, there are many people in fandom that have had this exact experience. Honestly, without me needing to ask anyone specifically, I KNOW there are people in fandom projecting their experiences onto Riku and Ansem as a means to replay it with a bit of actual control. And even if there are people who don't. I'm not going to ask, because it's none of my business. So again, as a proshipper I am completely in control of my online experience. I can block, mute, filter, and not engage with the things I don't like or things that trigger me. But as long as it is fiction, it remains as just that : Something I don't like between characters that dont exist. I don't have to harass, bully, nor threaten people over fiction. Of course, there are bad apples in every circle. But to me, whether someone is a bad person or not is expressed through action toward real people and the intentional harm done onto them, whether it be through inappropriate interactions, abuse of any kind, exposing personal information, harassing family/at work, or encouraging harm. Those are real actions on real people and engaging in these actions is what counts to me as markers of a bad person. Not someone drawing two fictional characters that haven't aged in the last 20 years kissing or having sex. 

[ailoveuu]

Hello, and welcome to a series that I would like to call "what does an anti have to say", in which I watch a bunch of anti-proship videos to see if they can turn me into an anti!

Today, we are going to be watching "An Ex Proshippers advice" by Loki ZeGaymer. I found this video through someone on here (tamarahtalkstv), so major thanks to them for even making their own post about this and inspiring this whole thing.

Will I stop being anti harassment? Will I give up on blocking content I don't like?? Am I going to stop shipping bad ships (even though I keep it to myself 9/10 and have only mentioned my comships twice on this account)??? Will this be my last post before deactivating???? Let's find out together!

An obvious disclaimer, because the fact that I have to say this fucking sucks: don't harass this person. Being proship is all about being anti harassment, and if you can't be a decent human being over fiction, you are the issue. We are all humans, treat each other as such.

One of the first things that becomes obvious right off the bat, that actually gives this video so much more credibility than most others, is that this person used to be a proshipper! This is a very common rhetorical device, known as ethos. Believe me, I hate ethos, pathos, and logos discussions, but they exist for a reason. The fact that this person used to be a proshipper is them saying that they have experience with such things and can understand what they're talking about, in a way. They say both in the video and in the caption that they used to be a proshipper, so if you'd actually want to see how antis think, this could be helpful since they've been on both sides.

Although, an odd thing that seemed to show right after is the story of how they became a proshipper. The claim that they got groomed into proshipping is a common one, and I'm not surprised. Believe it or not, fiction can be used to spread ideas and connect to vulnerable individuals. My initial issue with this is that this wording, that they were groomed into proshipping, acts like proshipping in general is what caused this. Any type of fiction, even "legal" fiction, can lead to this.

I've had people in their 20's say that if they were my age, they'd have a crush on me. We met through harmless roleplaying. I was in a toxic relationship with someone I met through roleplaying, who happened to be an anti. Off topic, but I'm starting to think that roleplaying is the issue...but you get my point. Any and all type of fiction can be used against people. I know that toxic ex of mine did use "legal" fiction against me, and that's just how it is. Fiction can be used for malicious purposes. Any and all types.

(Also, jfc their ex sounds awful. Idgaf that they were 16-17, wdym you groomed a 14 y/o while in an online cult??? Ik this is about proshipping, but I genuinely hope they've recovered from this. Again, I speak from experience, that ex deserves to go to hell and back - and I'm the least religious person on this planet.)

Now, I'm gonna paraphrase, bc I don't wanna rewatch the clips 6383 times in order to get the exact quote. At 3:03, their claim is that "I've been groomed by multiple people, all of whom were proshippers. This contradicts their claim that fiction doesn't affect reality." All I'm gonna say, is that people who think fiction DOESN'T affect reality are stupid.

I feel giddy when I read cute fanfiction, I cry over sad scenes, I use it to cope! Fiction is affecting my reality, because I have let it. Fiction is affecting my reality, but not on a 1:1 basis. I'm a huge horror fan, I've been like that since about 3rd/4th grade. By this logic though, I'm a mass murderer, abuser, cult leader, and overall the embodiment of evil. Last time I checked, I've never killed a person.

At 3:39, they begin to talk about getting doxxed. I'm starting to think this person is like, my long lost twin bc I also got doxxed a while back, but not for being a proshipper. Ironically enough, that is exactly why they got doxxed. I haven't moved on past this part, but I'm going to make a prediction: I'm hoping that they say that this was wrong, they nobody deserves this, and that this is something that antis shouldn't do no matter how wrong proshipping may be. Was I right? Well...

Uh they didn't mention it at all past that. They didn't like, say "that's wrong", but instead they mention that they got therapy, and thank goodness for that! Idc that they're an anti, getting groomed and doxxed is not something you go through and be completely fine after. They say that they got therapy specifically for the abuse and not for the comshipping, which I agree with, esp since my own therapist agrees that people do use comshipping as a way to cope.

4:12, and now we're moving onto the whole anti-harassment claim. Oh no.

I haven't moved past that as of writing this part, but I'm willing to bet that they're gonna say "you can't be anti harassment and a groomer" which I agree with. Although that's just common sense. I don't think that it'll be worded right though because that'll just continue that idea that ALL proshippers are groomers, which this video literally contracts because I have faith that this person wasn't a groomer ever, esp not as a proshipper.

"They claim to be anti harassment while invalidating my trauma and misgendering my best friend." So that's a false claim and does not represent every proshipper...many proshippers are trans and use comshipping to cope with their trauma. If they're doing this while doing what you've claimed them to be doing then they'd be hypocritical. I am very lucky to have not experienced that myself, and I've never seen a proshipper harass anybody, but I don't doubt they exist.

"Even if someone is a proshipper, you shouldn't be harassing them; especially if they're a minor" common sense we love to see it <3

"Just stop and seek some help. It's not that hard to seek therapy." but for some it IS HARD. The fact that I can go to therapy and get treated for my anxiety is a privilege that so many do not have. Do NOT act like therapy is so easily accessible. For many, it is not. They said the same thing at the end for adults as well...

We don't blame horror movie directors for people being inspired by their movies to commit murder. Why is it a proshippers fault when someone thinks pedophilia and incest is okay? I know many people who write and create that type of content will explicitly state that they're against it irl.

So, that's just a bunch of yapping... what's my actual thoughts on this?

In my opinion, while this person is very, very brave for sharing their story, and I can only hope that they've managed to recover from everything that happened, I cannot help but disagree. A singular story is not going to convince many people that they're in the wrong, especially when the video was marketed as "advice" and the only thing said was "get help".

In the beginning, they said they didn't know they were a proshipper, which explains why they're even using the term proship in the first place! Proship is "don't like don't read" and being anti harassment. What they're discussing is comshipping, and not every comship is bad. It could literally just be mortal x immortal. Yup, that's a comship!

tldr: i was not convinced. this person was respectful, and I'm very glad, however I do not agree with this opinion. this video seems like it was made for antis rather than existing proshippers, as their advice was lackluster. I rate it a 4/10, and I am still a proshipper.

[hoxooster]

On the DesBea situation:

I would've added my thoughts to the original post, but as I am not a part of their Discord server, I didn't think that that was any bit appropriate. However, I wanted to share some of my own personal experiences with her, so that y'all can see that her behavior in their server is a continuing pattern--I don't have pictures of what she said as proof, sadly, but I will explain why.

I'm also gonna slap this under a Read More. I apologize for its length, but the original callout post should be enough of an explanation as to why this post needs to be as long as it is.

And, as a quick aside, if any of you wish to completely block DesBea, NOT HARASS HER OR FEED INTO HER BEHAVIOR IN ANY WAY, be aware that her usernames are:

commence-screaming

des-paa-cee-toeee

pd3thoughts

If any of you know of any more, please tell me, and I will update this post. I don't want to be around her anymore than most people who've also interacted with her do.

About 2 years ago, I was invited to lilspacewolfie's server, Red's Ramblers, and I very quickly became a moderator there. Over time some people joined and a few left, but Ramblers remained stable through it all. DesBea joined later on into the server's lifespan, was around for awhile, said some nasty things, was given a warning (in the general), and just left without saying anything one day. After reading the screenshots in the callout post, I'm actually quite surprised by how much of a fit she threw in her efforts to make you guys apologize to her. Much like in the original post, with her gone from the server, things improved for everyone else, but the whole ordeal was rather confusing for all of us, in the aftermath.

See, DesBea was trying to be just as harmful in Ramblers, but it never really went anywhere.

Her hateful and self-pitying tendencies were the same around us as it was in their server. She really loved to talk shit about Yadoking and her writing--she would do this both in passing on random posts in the server, and while some of us were in-call when we'd play Payday 2 together as a group. It never smacked of genuine criticism for Yado's writing ability or style, as she only ever used childish language when doing it, and she would always do it right before she would try to push her own ideas and fics onto any of us who were online at the time. She was even trying to bully lilspacewolfie--which I will go more into later--over the tiniest of things. DesBea, in all of her posts, was either pushing someone else down, trying to make us all read about her rather disturbing fic ideas or headcanons, or trying to make herself look like the victim by claiming that she 'had bad experiences with abuse in the past' and that her 'PTSD was triggered over something someone in Ramblers had said' when we were trying to halt her bullshit.

It was all very aggravating to deal with, to say the least, but it also didn't have very much staying power, since most of us were just ignoring her in the server. And I do mean that, as most of the users in the Ramblers Discord server refused to interact with her posts over time, and people usually ignored her whenever she tried to insert herself into their conversations. It's probably why she left without much of a fight when lilspacewolfie posted "If you're being an asshole in this server, you better stop that shit right now" in the general chat. (That's not what she said, but y'all get the jist.)

Now, as for her bullying behavior in the server, I can't say for certain if she was targeting anyone besides lilspacewolfie (and badmouthing Yado from time to time, who wasn't even in the server), as I'm not a very outgoing or talkative individual. Despite the length of this post, I'm naturally quite taciturn, and even though I was a moderator in Ramblers, nobody in the server ever messaged me about any issues that they were having with anyone. But, I can say with accuracy that DesBea would go out of her way to harass lilspacewolfie--the creator and owner of the Red's Ramblers Discord server. Whenever she would join calls while we were playing together (but she was just watching from the server), she would only ever type in the voice chat channel, where she would wax poetic about her own fics and get rather offended that 'lilspacewolfie was intentionally ignoring her'. If we were playing a game of Payday 2 with her, DesBea would intentionally follow lilspacewolfie around as a character that she didn't particularly care for and spam callouts to scare and irritate her. And, when another user in the server was having an issue that caused them a lot of distress and made them go quiet for awhile (which had nothing to do with anyone or anything in Ramblers, when they were asked about it), DesBea tried to blame lilspacewolfie for it based on a lighthearted joke that she had made that dogged on Houston. So, not only was she trying to harass lilspacewolfie, but she was actively trying to turn others in the server against the owner of the Discord, as if she could muscle her out by making her out to be a villain.

Over a joke about a FICTIONAL character.

Because she started insinuating that lilspacewolfie had caused another user to 'go into a depressive spiral, and chased them away from the server with her insensitive comments about Houston', I got involved to shut that shit down. DesBea was always weirdly attached to me, because she had DM'd me a few times on Tumblr in the past. I can only guess that she thought that these few smatterings of messages made me her friend, and since, apparently, some people here think of me as being "Mr. John Payday", she figured that she could use me as an intimidating wall to hide behind whenever she was called out on her bullshit.

She was wrong.

After a while of still trying to get others in the server to hate lilspacewolfie for 'being mean to one of the other users in the server'--who ended up coming back once their mental health had improved, by the way--she finally left after the "Stop being a dick" post, and it took us a couple days to notice. So, all-in-all, it was a very weird and irritating experience, but, in this context, it shows a worrying trend of behavior that she ended up spreading to other servers.

Now, like I kind of glossed over earlier, I WAS a moderator in Red's Ramblers. (I ended up leaving the server last month due to personal reasons that're not germane to this situation, and I have no desire to talk about it on this forum.) As I was still a mod before I left, I took the time to delete every post and reaction made by people who were no longer in the server--this amounted to 7 people, DesBea included. So, all of her posts that I could've screencapped as evidence are gone, and even if they were still there, I wouldn't have access to them anymore, anyway. In fact, the only thing that I have left is this picture I took of my response to her whole "You're a bad person for hating Houston" spiel that she was going on and on about:

(I censored this to give some privacy to the person who DesBea tried to use as a cudgel to smack lilspacewolfie with blame for their condition at the time. Even though most people here probably won't recognize them from their in-server nickname, I didn't want to take any chances.)

But, anyway, as you have read from the callout post and these personal anecdotes that I have provided, her behavior in their server was an unsurprising, but also a very worrying trend that has effected at least 2 Discord servers and a good chunk of some of the people who were or still are in the Payday fandom.

If anything that y'all have read over these posts has angered any of y'all to the point of harassing her, PLEASE DON'T. Don't send her hate--anonymously or not. Don't engage with her. Just block her and make sure that others in the fandom are aware of her behavior, so they can avoid her if they wish to as well.

And, again, please tell me if she's operating under any usernames other than the ones I've listed. I was tired of her bullshit a long time ago, and I have no desire to entertain her further under yet another pseudonym.

[tag-that-oc]

Do you have any Ocs you’d like to talk about??

oh boy do i

im gonna introduce my scrungly my poor little meow meow my pathetic loser the love of my life. Arvid Sheldon Moreno <3

ill add trigger tags too of course but just in case: warning for abuse, violence, death, and kidnapping

first of all i am a Terrible artist but here's a commission i got of him from the lovely jester @/ghostcasket (with commissions still open here is the info post. go commission them he's wonderful)

anyways. ARVID. basically he's a second generation oc from the project me and the other mod have. he is like. 3/4 alien?? something like that. but he was born on earth and that's where he grew up.

his parents are lovely and perhaps very strange but they are so good to their kids. Arvid is a mama's boy in particular he is very close to her and very protective of her.

so. what's wrong with him then???? surely he has Every Problem Ever. well he does. when he was a kid he didn't really have any friends. he was outcasted and bullied from various sources but none more so than Alex. fuck Alex we hate that guy.

Alex caused problems for Arvid basically his whole life. he was harassed and followed and beaten and manipulated and. well a lot of things!!

Arvid met and became friends with Izan who was infinitely better for Arvid and nicer and they were just really close. however that didn't stop Alex from being an asshole ya know. and it got even worse when Izan broke off from Arvid due to trying to manage his own trauma of a recent event unrelated to Arvid's stuff

so what did Arvid do? he clung to Alex and they became "friends". during this time Alex really drilled into Arvid's head the idea that he shouldn't cry, that he was weak, that no one else could tolerate him, and Arvid believed it all. things escalated until Alex and one of his other friends attacked and stabbed Arvid during a time when Izan and Arvid were trying to patch things up. and they left him there.

Izan got him help, but Arvid refused to let Alex get into trouble. in fact he had a strong fondness and loyalty to him and so what did he do? he confessed that he was in love with Alex. and Alex, ever amused and delighted by the power and control he had over Arvid, accepted his confession and they started dating.

and they didn't break up for a really really long time!

however this is all the backstory info! (well not all of his backstory but Some of it) this isn't even taking into account the story events! the story events being Arvid and his entire family gets kidnapped and taken to an alien planet because these fucked up brothers were trying to get and erase information on the esp experiments that happened during the first generation (meaning the things Arvid's parents went through) and. well long story short Dawson (does anyone remember when i talked about him?) was forced by his older brothers to kill Arvid and his mom. fucked up!!

but it's okay, isn't it? yeah Arvid comes back to life thanks to a wish made by Dawson on this super powerful wish granting magical rock. and they all live happily ever after on earth!

but not really.

when Arvid gets back he discovers that in addition to being brought back to life, he's now immortal. which is the LAST thing he wants because he didn't even want to be brought back to life if he was being honest. and Alex being the wonderful person he is decides to use this to his advantage (basically isn't it fun to kill your boyfriend over and over while he remains blindly loyal to you? Alex seems to think so)

however Arvid has other relationship drama going on. he has feelings for soo many other people but didn't feel worthy enough to be in a relationship with any of them. why would anyone ever like him back ya know?

except a lot of them did like him back. a lot actually. and Arvid starts dating others and building this lovely little polycule of people who really and genuinely love and care about him. and it takes a long time, but eventually Arvid breaks things off with Alex and tries to be happy. key word being that he tries because sometimes he doesn't do a very good job of it. he's still got it in his head that he deserves to suffer and will go on self destructive spirals now that he doesn't have a boyfriend beating him to shit constantly anymore.

some fun facts about Arvid is that he's a supervillain. i mean not Really a supervillain but he's a loser and tells everyone that he's evil. type of guy to steal from large corporations but not from local places. but this is all evil deeds he swears it. he also has plans to take over the world which he only shares with people he really trusts. he's so lame <3

he's also extremely emotional and will cry really easily but. well due to Alex Reasons he will belittle himself for showing sadness. he is obsessed with people seeing him as strong when his 5'3 ass can't even open a pickle jar

Arvid is also very very soft and sensitive about bugs he loves bugs!!! they were his best friends back when he didn't have any friends and even now he still treats them so gently. it's a really cool contrast to his usual edgy personality.

also!! he has really bad luck all the time <3 constantly tripping over stuff and falling in puddles and breaking his phone and. other bad luck stuff.

anyways i hope you enjoyed my insane ramblings about my scrungy little guy

[4th-make-quail]

May I ask a clarifying question on your boundaries? I don’t consider myself “proship” or “anti” as I think those terms are reductive, and two people who may both fit under one label could have incredibly different opinions. However, I believe that the way I interact with media could be something that someone would call “anti”, in that I find it more interesting to look at fiction through the lens of reality rather than “fiction doesn’t effect reality”, by which I mean when reading Lolita I like to go “okay so what is this saying about how the psych profession saw csa at the time?” “How was this influenced by Nabokov’s own experiences?”, I see Marius and Armand as a reflection of child sexual abuse and enjoy analysing it under a more realistic lens, and would find wincest more interesting as a look at enmeshment between siblings under an abusive parent, rather than a ship (although what people mean by the term “ship” is also really vague and can differ wildly).

Based on that, and what you say in your pinned post, would you prefer I don’t interact? I wouldn’t want to make you uncomfortable!

Okay so to preface this, I don't go into much detail in my pinned because I hate the whole thing, and I hate spaces which are super dedicated to the pro/anti discourse. I try to keep my online spaces free of discourse and drama because its simply not fun! I don't want to spend my days steeping in negativity.

This got very long, so I'm gonna put it under a cut!

So. The thing is anon, the proship label originally came about as a response to antis, to describe people who don't actually care what other people ship ("ship and let ship", "your kink is not my kink and that's okay" and all that), but it's been massively conflated these days and now people take it to describe what they call problematic ships or art. You're right about them being reductive terms - and in fact, I have a lot of freak friends who are super into things I personally dislike or am outright squicked by (and vice versa), because we're not a monolith.

My stance entirely is this: I don't care what other people ship. I don't care how they ship it, or how they want to analyse and engage with that source material. I think what people ship and what art people enjoy has no say at all in what their morals might be.

What you describe as how you engage with those pairings is a completely valid interpretation! Preferring to look at a relationship through those lenses is perfectly fine, and in fact lots of people do this under the umbrella of meta.

What I personally mean by "ship" is the usual description - I want those two characters to have a romantic and sexual relationship. However, I also have no issues with people who don't have that viewpoint because it quite literally doesn't affect me unless they go about harassing others.

Liking a "problematic" ship dynamic doesn't mean you also condone that thing in real life. There's a reason one of the top sexual fantasies is noncon (see: any women's magazine list of these), and it's not because the person secretly really wants to be raped in real life. It's because human beings enjoy exploring taboo subjects in a safe and fictional environment.

Where my opinion stands on this is simple. If you think it's okay to harass people for the ships they like, if you think it's acceptable to write call out posts and smear people's names because of the ships they like, then I don't want to know you. If you think liking Marius/Armand makes that person a paedophile, or that liking underage ships leads to the person eventually moving on to real life kids, or that being an incest shipper means you're gonna go fuck your own sibling, again, I don't want to know you.

The same goes for both sides of this frankly stupid issue - far too many people who call themselves proship proudly love to dunk publicly on antis or people who don't share their viewpoints, which imo makes them just as bad! If someone's out there being awful to people who don't ship their problematic ships, then it's just as bad!

This is also why I don't do any DNIs or anything like that. If I see someone start to follow me and they have big obvious "PROSHIP DNI" in their info, then I will go ahead and block them, but otherwise I'm not interested in policing who can interact with me in that way. It's not for me to decide whether someone else wants to interact with me, it's on you to decide if you want to.

I'm not gonna be going out and ripping on people who dislike a ship I like, or who engage with art in a different way to me. However, if I come across posts in my tracked tags or on my dash expressing anti sentiments, or going on a negative rant about something I love, then I will also probably unfortunately be blocking that person. I don't like seeing negativity about shit I love on my dash or in the tags (really, does anybody? lol) so I'm proactive about that because a) it depresses me, and b) I spent a long time in the ffxiv fandom, where people think liking Garleans makes you a nazi apologist, and where they love to go on ranting screeds about how my favourite characters should die painfully, and I'm honestly not about that in my fandom life.

Anyway, all this to say: if you're comfortable interacting with me, a Marius/Armand bitch who does indeed enjoy their fucked up relationship because of how fucked up it is (and finds it incredibly sexy, actually), then I'm fine with you interacting with me. I'm not gonna be sharing or posting about that specific ship anyway, and I'm certainly not gonna be awful about people who find it distasteful or triggering or even just plain don't like it for whatever reason. It won't make me uncomfortable in any way to interact with you because you engage with those things in a different way to me, as long as you don't also engage in the other activities I discussed further up.

Sorry this got so long, anon! Hopefully it all makes sense. As an aside, I'm not interested in having any debates about these issues with anyone and will not be engaging with arguments about it. Sensible discussion, yes. Arguments, discourse and wank? No. Thank you for understanding! 💚

[pombeom]

trigger warning (sexual crimes mentioned)

hey pombeom here,

i was gonna finish writing a fic for a request today but the whole taeil incident really threw me off and it got me thinking about how we can never trust the idols we see on screen. i don’t stan nct but i did for a few months back in 2020/2021 and you would never have thought that taeil was capable of something like this. i’m very much disappointed and enraged by his behaviour and i hope he gets what he deserves and that the victim/(s) are supported in every way. plus the news of the nth room again in korea just drove me over the edge. apparently around 200 male idols were involved and i’m starting to fear that some of the groups i stan are the wrong type of people. this just shows that we never fully know the ppl we are fans of.

this isn’t the type of content i wanted to be posting on here as i want this to be a positive space but ive been disturbed by all the news today and its gotten to the point where my trust is being broken. i just needed somewhere to share my thoughts and anyone who thinks taeil’s actions are acceptable pls unfollow immediately. i don’t want to be interacting with someone who supports a sex offender.

once i clear my mind of this incident, i shall be posting again. i even had a few new ideas yesterday that i was gonna work on so maybe i can actually get to writing them soon.

if anyone wants any information on any of this or wants to talk for any reason please feel free to reach out and message me. once again sorry that i’m having to talk about this instead of posting a fic, but this topic is very important to me even though i haven’t gone through it myself. i know people im very close to experience sexual harassment and it’s something that gets me so angry. i just needed to get this off my chest so bad. thank you of you for to the end of this long rant but i just need ppl to understand the seriousness of this.

-pombeom

[stop-breaking-my-heart-telltale]

i watched dom the bombs reading of book 2 and saw people making really negative comments about tillie and the book, it made me feel bad seeing how far people are going to hate on tillie instead of just the book

Yeah, I saw some of his livestream. I don't really watch his content, but I have watched the videos he did about Clementine Book One. I only watched the stream for about two minutes before I had to shut it off because it was that unpleasant, and I'm not referring to the content of the book. Then when I heard through discord that he'd gotten to chapter 9, I turned it back on and watched his reaction and the rant that followed and like... I have a lot of feelings but to put it simply, I'm kinda pissed so apologies for this long post.

Here's the deal: I don't know Dom, and maybe his reactions were exaggerated for his chat, or maybe he really does feel that aggressively passionate about twdg and what these comics have done, I don't know. I jumped into the stream the first time when he was at the part where Clementine's being introduced to new cast at the party, and it's when he was reading and said, "'John is Morro's son' I don't care" that I clicked off. Why should I keep watching when you're not going to put in any effort into the story outside of just hating on it? That's the whole vibe I got and it put me right off.

He can hate them as much as he wants [and he did say that if this wasn't about Clementine, it wouldn't be that bad], that's not my issue. My biggest issue comes when he brings Tillie into it because he always does.

I think his stream had a little bit of a ripple effect that's lead to Tillie's social media. Looking through her most recent post on insta, there are a bunch of new comments with people parroting some stuff he said in his stream... as if she needed more shit. She's been getting these comments for days now.

For those unaware, Tillie Walden just had a baby on October 4th, the same day Clementine Book Two came out, and these are pieces throughout the comments section of that post sharing the news:

I'm trying so hard to put this into words because, on one hand, I get that Dom is just one person and it's not like he can force his audience to do anything. Plus, the hate was happening before his stream so it's not like it's his fault anything... but just because he throws in a "I don't condone harassment of Tillie guys" disclaimer around, that doesn't mean he isn't contributing to the problem.

You can't go on a rant about how Ricca is Tillie's self-insert and no one can change your mind about that, and then be like "but guys don't harass Tillie, she doesn't deserve it." THAT is what people are sending her threats over! You're just validating that self-insert idea! You are contributing to the problem!

Personally, I don't think he's saying "don't send anyone harassment" because he actually gives a shit about Tillie Walden or anyone involved in the project, he's saying it to cover his own ass so no one can point any fingers at him. I'd like to be proven wrong on that. I'd love for him to be more serious about it and say more than just "I don't condone harassment" before going on to say he's gonna bring the hammer down for his review.

And y'know what? You're right. I can't change your mind about Ricca being a self-insert because you don't want to change your mind.

Both of them having glasses isn't evidence, and "they look exactly the same!" doesn't work when Tillie's art style has same-face syndrome. Slap some glasses on Olivia and oop, Olivia must be a self-insert, too!

Like... do people still not get how stories are made? Writers tend to write what they know, they draw from their life experiences and that influences their characters, settings, and plots. You know what probably happened? Tillie wears glasses, and she probably thought about how much it would suck to wear glasses in the apocalypse, and gave that idea to one of her characters.

But does it even matter? You've already decided it's not up for debate. You're not open to discussion on it. You're set on spreading "Ricca is a self-insert" to your audience, that ripples through the fandom, and a shit ton of people are weaponizing it. "Ricca is a self-insert" is why they're going after her on a post about her newborn baby.

I know how that this works. It's happened to me where I've said something only to see some of my followers weaponizing it against other people. Shit, when I was on the subreddit the other day, I saw someone misquoting me from my first read through of Book Two post: I never said I would lose my shit if they named Olivia's baby Amos Junior, AJ 2.0. I was making a fucking joke. And do you know how many times I've come across "AJ 2.0" since? An alarming amount!

When you have a platform with any amount of followers, shit you say is going to spread and it might be used poorly. There isn't much you can do about it except think about the future shit you say and how you say it. You're never going stop everyone from being shitty; some people are just insistent on being assholes, but you can always try to reach through to more people.

There is a conversation to be had about the contents of chapter 9, and how this story is leaning toward a more romantic focus over a gritty zombie drama. There's a lot to say about Ricca as a character. There are legit criticisms of these books, and criticisms to be had of Skybound for continuing the series after the games ended... but I don't think many people are interested in actually having those conversations. I think they just want to be mad. I think they want to put all the blame on one person, and since it's Tillie's name on the books, they want to hate her.

And I don't even dislike Dom or anything. He seems like a nice guy who's passionate about the games and is disappointed the comics didn't do them justice. From the parts I watched he had good points about how Skybound were the ones who hired Tillie knowing her previous work. I see where he's coming from with his dislike of the romance angle, too.

But it's the reactionary anger that feeds and grows, which again, I don't blame him for having strong feelings or reacting. I used to stream on twitch and you do get carried away; you exaggerate, you get pissed off and so does chat and suddenly everything is heated and you're bouncing that off each other. So I get it.

I guess I just dread his actual review because I know what's going to happen. And now I'm also a little worried about my review.

I'm just upset that this is what the twdg fandom's turned into. I mean, we've always had toxicity but I don't remember it ever being this bad. There's nothing I can do about it except hope people calm down.

...I can't believe this is where my character arc has led me. I'm the Tillie Walden and, to an extent, the Clementine comics defender... Well, shit.

I don't even like the comics, I think they're bullshit too, and yet-

[jmdbjk]

Dreamers wrap up

I can speak for most of us: I think we are all mesmerized by Jungkook’s tattoos...

And his muscled arms...

Look! his lil 7 behind his ear!

We never get to see this part of his upper arm so clearly. It looks like a full moon but with clouds obscuring it a little:

So he has a “white” moon and a “black” sun? 💀

Kookie was also hot in more ways than one:

Okay, back to being long-winded cuz I got shit to say:

So here is the blog post on my initial thoughts about this whole Qatar World Cup involvement. And then a follow-up of my thoughts blog post on the Dreamers MV after its release (scroll down some on the blog post to get to it). 

And now we know even more information surrounding JK’s involvement in that FIFA supposedly recruited just Jungkook for the gig. They didn’t want the other “kookies” just Jungkookie (that was cringey when I heard it). I know this is what was said in the media over there. But we also know FIFA is not the most honest and upstanding entity in sports. No entity in sports is. It’s about the money. Whatever it takes to make the most money...

I’m not saying this isn’t really what happened and we really do not know the timing of any of it or exactly how it went down. But I’m not gonna buy it wholly just because that’s how they said it did. I’m always that skeptical bitch, you know? 

It seems like when it was all coming out during the summer, we know now BTS had already determined how the rest of the year was going to play out. When FIFA approached BigHit, perhaps the answer was “no” the group is not scheduling any activities but individual members are available. And that’s how it could have gone down. Again, that’s just me talkin’ out my ass too. Because I certainly know nothing. I just know how the media works and how these major sports organizations are gonna spin things to their benefit. 

Kookie did a great job though, no matter how it all came to be.

The World Cup is over. Congratulations Argentina, well done. But the event had a major amount of controversy due to the fact it was held in Qatar:

1) People including spectators as well as teams and players, were told not to wear anything resembling a rainbow on their clothing...people were harassed about it IN PUBLIC by Qatari authorities. That’s not cool. Source story here.

2) Major sponsor, Budweiser, was told at the last minute before the opening ceremony they couldn’t sell beer outside the stadiums. A MAJOR FUCKING SPONSOR! IT’S BEER! AND SPORTS! THEY GO TOGETHER! BAM! Source story here.

Another source article here questioning the suitability of Qatar hosting this major sports event.

Kookie traveled to Qatar TWICE for his World Cup work. Don’t get me wrong, I am sure that part of the world is very beautiful in its own way with its own charms. Kookie seems to have had a good experience overall, but he was there to work and then left immediately. He was surrounded by his entourage and protected. Chief bodyguard was there holding that umbrella over Kookie the entire time ready to stiff-arm anyone who came close. 

Being the kind person and professional he is, Kookie said nice words about his time there:

His opening ceremony performance did not go smoothly either, it is said his in-ears were not working. He was off key once or twice. I know he wasn’t happy about that. But the performance looked amazing.

And when we finally hear the Dreamers song, the “theme song” for the entire World Cup event... we learn these are the lyrics of the song:

Gather 'round now, look at me (Hayya, hayya) Respect the love the only way (Hayya, hayya) If you wanna come, come with me (Hayya, hayya) The door is open now every day (Hayya, hayya) This one plus two, rendezvous all invited This what we do, how we do

Too bad the actual setting was not so inclusive.

Last but not least... the fans who claim that Jungkook was not supported well by BigHit regarding this song. The song was not Jungkook’s song even though he performed it and may have written a few lyrics for it to suit his delivery better. The song belongs to (copyrighted by) Katara Studios so it wasn’t BigHit’s song to promote. BigHit’s involvement was exclusively to support Jungkook by providing everything he needed while he traveled back and forth and was over there working. 

When JK finally releases HIS solo album under the BigHit label with songs he concepted, wrote and recorded with official MVs etc that he has a hand in directing, is when he will have his real, genuine solo debut. I am very much looking forward to it.

[dapg-otmebytheballs]

hi! i hope this is okay. there's a lot of discussion going on about dnp & gender and neurodivergence and ive seen you post about it. personally, i have seen some comments under their youtube videos that said things along the lines of "this is autism and adhd, get diagnosed". i feel like that might be overstepping some boundaries.

but, as you and many others on here said, discussing it is not inherently wrong! as someone with diagnosed adhd (who also works in social care with many people who have autism) i do see traits in dnp that i recognize, and it's absolutely fine for me and others to talk about this.

same goes for gender discussion. in the community around dnp are a lot of people that are also in the lgbtq+ community and people see things that they identify with.

i don't think dnp care about what we discuss on here. i don't think it's bad to talk about these things. i do think it goes a bit too far to actually say these things to dnp, but this is based on my personal experience combined with what dan has said in BIG about wanting privacy.

people on twitter basically bullying the op of that one crack vid on youtube, and keeping tabs on blogs on here that call dan 'she' sometimes (while he has literally said he does not care about being called by different pronouns) are going way too far!

the thing is that while i do think it's good to keep being critical about whether we are being respectful and tactful, going about it the way we've seen some people on twitter do is not okay! being respectful and tactful should also be the way we act to each other in the fandom.

this got way too long i am so sorry, i just have a lot of thoughts on this whole situation.

Completely okay yes!

Yeah going into THEIR comments or tagging them or saying stuff to their face like that isn't right, certainly

I should also say though, there's always gonna be a few people (even people who aren't involved in any fandoms) who often do that kinda stuff just because they don't get the social etiquette involved. Kinda like your elderly aunt who often speaks out of turn. So when there's only a few instances of something like this happening, best to politely tell the person one-on-one that it's unseemly rather than make a Whole Thing out of it

Because you're right, if you're gonna be in a community you gotta be respectful to others in the community, and harassing people to delete their content is just not it. Hounding and dogpiling people causes genuine harm to your fellow fans, who are small time creators btw just random people suddenly getting a spotlight thrown on them and having abuses hurled at them. Cut it out. If someone isn't directly going to dnp with this stuff then it's not anyone's business, and if they are then you either talk to them one on one or you ignore and don't give it any more engagement

[mariska]

hi i would like to share a recent personal experience (with a surprisingly positive resolution) about challenging hate speech in online video games that have chat features as an extremely socially anxious autistic person + also some thoughts i've held for a very long time regarding the need for folks who are privileged enough to not be targets of constant harassment in video game social environments to use that privilege by speaking up when witnessing hate speech for those of us who can't safely do so

(this ended up being a super long post i'm sorry, i tried to split it into separated paragraphs to make it a bit more accessible to read but i needed to get this whole train of thought written outside of my brain before i unintentionally move on to some other point of focus and forget all of this)

i dont usually like posting about bad online video game interactions since thats a Bummer, but. i wanted to make a post to share a brief interaction i was a part of in the text chat of an online team game last night that actually had a positive resolution even just for the sake of being able to say that i've witnessed a bad video game interaction involving me as a target end up with a positive resolution. i'm gonna put the rest of this whole thing under a 'read more' so that it hopefully doesn't clog anyone's dash up with long-scrolling text wall:

i was playing 'versus' mode in Left 4 Dead 2 on my computer last night, which for anyone not familiar with that gamemode, is where one team of 4 people play as the human survivors and the other team of 4 people play as the game's 'Special Infected' zombies (Boomer, Hunter, Tank, etc. on a randomized respawn rotation). its very fun and chaotic but because of the chaotic rapid respawn nature of the zombie side and the fact that you don't usually play as the special infected zombies in the regular 'campaign', its not uncommon to be put in matches with ppl who have no patience for anyone who isnt super experienced or skilled or whatever as every special infected on the zombie team and people start arguments in the chat pretty often. im not a fan of ppl acting out like that but usually its just Annoying and i ignore it and carry on,

last night though, someone on the opposite team of mine (mine was currently the zombies; the game goes back and forth to let each team do their best at surviving the same levels on both sides; one team gets as far as they can as humans and then the other tries to match that score or do better if they can and so on) was getting increasingly frustrated that whenever their team was playing as the survivors they weren't quite making it as far towards the map end goals as my team was, because my team was doing slightly better at teaming up as the special infected zombies to get bigger scores and hold them away from their goal.

eventually he got so visibly upset in the text chat that he went "ok. r*tarded but ok', and then followed up quickly with something along the lines of "yall know you're a bunch of fkin r*tards right" (i censored it here, he did not originally) and that immediately crossed a boundary line for me because i'm autistic, and once was already too much, but twice in a row made me very uncomfortable. i didn't know or care if he was saying it to us (his enemy team), or his own team for having a slightly lower score as the survivors, but nobody else in the game had shown any text or voice chat signs of being unsafe people or angry people, so i felt safe enough to go in the text chat (i usually do not do this because i usually do not feel safe enough to do so in groups of strangers online)

i said something like "learn a new word to use, maybe?", just to kind of be like, 'hey, nobody else in this game is talking the way you are, don't be That Guy' you know? he said "why? its not like its a big deal", which was kinda sad to read 'cause it gave me the impression that this person probably spends a good amount of time (willingly or unwillingly) around people who commonly use slurs because its 'not a big deal'; again, nobody else in the match was getting involved verbally or textually, and we all continued to play the game while this happened, so i decided that i was going to stick up for myself since i don't often feel like i have the opportunity to do that in the text chat of games without feeling humiliated or thrown under the bus by my teammates or whatever.

while i was typing the guy added "i wasnt even saying it to you anyways" (does not matter to me, obviously). i finished the response i had been typing to his message about 'its not a big deal' and said "it is a big deal, actually!". by this point, his character had been eliminated entirely and his team had one or two human survivors running to their end goal map exit for the round, so he had more free time to type and he replied to me and said "whatever, you do you i guess". i said "well. i'm autistic, so." and meant to say 'i guess i will' in response to 'you do you', but the round ended after i sent that reply and the loading screen popped up for the survivor/zombie team switch

when it did, he wrote "fair 'nuff." in the chat like a minute or so into the very start of the round when both teams were getting set up and everything, and i was honestly fine with that as a general resolution to the whole thing, because the minute or so of time in between my last message and the non-aggressive bluntness of it made me feel like he probably felt at least a little guilty realizing that he was casually tossing around a slur that is very commonly used against autistic people to An Actual Autistic Person in the same game as him, and that worked for me.

the game went on as it regularly had been for like five or so more minutes, and then he suddenly sent another final and honestly unexpected message in the group chat that said, in no response to any other messages that had been typed by anyone since his last one, "alright i'm sorry i used that word in chat mariska" (my name/username). which was actually wild for me to see because i am very much not used to getting actual apologies from strangers who say bad stuff in game chats, and i genuinely appreciated that he either hadn't stopped thinking about it and felt bad about acting out, or maybe some of his own teammates had prompted him to apologize in their respective team chat or something; either way, i gave a genuine "thank you." in the chat to let him know the gesture was appreciated, and for the rest of the maybe 30 or so mins that the whole match lasted, there was no more aggressiveness or slurs or toxicity at all in the chat from either team's side. when the game ended all together, he was one of the first people to type "gg" (good game) in the chat, as did myself and almost all of the other folks in the match, and after that i stopped playing for the night.

sorry for the big long text post, but i wanted to share this somewhere other than just that isolated game match chat between 8 people, because i very often see a lot of people (on pretty much any social media but mostly on here tbh) make posts regarding this exact kind of video game or general online text chat community experience where the person writing the post encourages others who also commonly witness it, or are the target of slurs, harassment, threats etc, to speak up (if it is safe to do so, imo 'speaking up' or 'calling out' people you dont know especially in aggressive game communities should be the responsibility of allies/friends/non-targeted folks more often than those of us who are being harassed or threatened or talked down to ourselves since it is inherently more dangerous for us to defend ourselves unfortunately and it can take a very serious turn against us very fast, think 'swatting' or doxxing, as a few examples off the top of my head) against the language/slurs/bigotry/harassment that aggressive, angry, frustrated strangers commonly spew in text and/or voice game chats, and as someone who plays a lot of team based online games regularly and has played online games in general since the mid-2000's, i couldn't agree more with the people i've seen writing posts or game journalism articles encouraging people to refuse to allow that kind of behavior to be validated by others in an online match, or to only ignore it when there is a safe opportunity to make it known that at least one person refuses to tolerate whatever behavior the aggressor is displaying.

anyways, to make an accidentally way too long story short; more often than not, in online video game chat circles, it's unfortunately just not going to be super productive to call out casual hate speech & harassment because there are typically (in my personal experiences at least) more people in a group of strangers that either enjoy seeing targets of harassment get upset and will join in with the original aggressor to humiliate whoever speaks against it, or who behave the same way as the aggressor and validate their own patterns of hate speech as being acceptable and common by defending their behavior/siding with them in larger numbers.

but! in situations where you're watching that happen, to yourself or others, and everyone else is either silent or doesn't seem to agree/enjoy watching someone have a bigoted hissy fit in a video game chat, it absolutely can be worth it to be the person who makes it clear to that person that they are the problem. unless you personally know every individual person who is playing in the same match group as you, there is no 100% way to know exactly who all the other players are outside of their characters or personas they're represented by in-game. people who tend to be commonly perceived as pretty emotionally mature in general, in any part of online or offline life, can and do absolutely come across as temporary social role models/behavioral leaders to the other real human beings around them in the moment, regardless of whether that's intentional on their end or not.

i'm not quite sure if the term 'peer pressure' is exactly what i'm looking for as terminology right now since that term is typically applied in negative behavior patterns, but that concept is very real in any gathering of multiple people - it can (and again, in SAFE settings, should) be utilized in a positive, constructive way to prompt someone to think before they speak/type, and to make a point to everyone present in the moment that we are all allowed to openly bring attention to harassment and hate speech. that point is an especially important realization for people who may hold generally higher positions of privilege than those of us who speak against it, since they are the ones that really need to be doing this kind of thing more often and in larger majorities than those of us who are put in danger when we bring attention to hateful behavior simply by existing as oppressed people of any kind.

i guess the whole main train of thought i'm attempting to explain with all of this is, like. before that one person started typing out a slur two times in a row that has been used against me so many times in my life that my brain went into auto-pilot and refused to let him feel comfortable saying it again, nobody was typing anything like 'gg' or 'gr' (good round, when a game isn't totally finished yet) at all, which was fine that's not like a requirement, but when that next round ended after the guy apologized and i said thank you, everyone else started saying 'gr' until the match ended and there were a bunch of 'gg's instead, like i mentioned above.

in all honesty, if i hadn't been so exhausted last night from having a really difficult day earlier that involved a lot of unintentional trauma triggers, panic attacks and anti-anxiety medication, i probably would have just left the game or not said anything when that happened, because i am terrified of confrontation and i am very used to it resulting in bad outcomes for me so i try very hard to have self-control and not potentially feed into trolls online, but i had a really really bad day, and that was my late night comfort special interest activity, and it pissed me off that i couldn't avoid traumatic triggers even in that short distraction before attempting to get some sleep. i was acting totally on emotionally charged impulse which is something that i try so hard not to do with strangers in video games of all places.

but i mention that specifically because it still made a difference in that one match, and because of that we were all able to have fun playing a video game the way it was meant to be played for friendly competitive enjoyment. i will probably never interact or maybe even just run into any of those people in a game lobby again, so obviously there's no way for me to know if the person who typed the slur messages will just continue to do that in other games anyways or if getting called-out on hateful behavior had any kind of impact on how he might think a few seconds longer before saying something like that to strangers online again in the future, but like. i don't know. that's kind of the point, i think? he seemed at the very least pretty embarrassed that nobody wanted to defend him or feed into the whole 'its not a big deal' thing, to the point that he actually apologized appropriately to me directly in a social setting where 6 other people saw it, so maybe that was a feeling of temporary guilt or shame or just being humbled a bit that he needed to experience to learn something from.

some people really are just not worth the mental or emotional effort to respond to because they are so set and fixed in their ways, and they're a stranger, and it's not our responsibility to fix that, especially in video games, that's why i usually. Dont Bother. but also sometimes people are so self-centered or uncaring or maybe even projecting self-hatred of how they think of themselves onto strangers because they don't view those strangers as fully realized human beings that continue living their lives after exiting out of a video game, who knows, i don't and i really don't care to, but i truly think there are a large amount of people in this kind of situation that just repeat whatever they've learned and heard around them for however long, and think of it as 'no big deal', and they suddenly feel very embarrassed and ashamed and small when one of the usernames they view as just a username on a screen talks back and they are faced with the realization that they said something awful to a real person, not an npc, not a left 4 dead 2 zombie character, and the other 6 real people there say nothing to defend them, because what they said sucked, and we're all trying to have fun playing a silly game, and they deserved to be embarrassed about it.

i think that's maybe my Big Concluding Thought on this whole thing. not necessarily 'everyone join me in Bringing Peace And Harmony To Left 4 Dead 2 Online Text Chat', but like...your words mean things to people you don't know when you say things to them in a place like a video game chat, and the largest majority of people playing most games just wanna play the game, so like. maybe think for a second or two before you just say stuff that sucks. especially if it sucks because it is literal hate speech? but also in general when it just sucks because its just a mean unwanted and unhelpful comment. and maybe ask yourself, if you're someone who jokes about wishing you werent 'so toxic when i play but i cant help it' or if you say things just to say things because 'its no big deal', why? why are you like that? you literally do not have to be. you don't know the lives and experiences of the people you're spending a very small amount of time with together in a game online and when you do this kind of stuff, when you're mean and 'toxic' and you call people slurs when they don't get as many high little numbers next to your digital team's fake video game scoreboard as you want them to get, the only impression or memory they will ever have of you is that they don't like you and you made a lighthearted experience suck for 7 people. that is all you get to be to that person forever.

idk, maybe other people don't think that's sad and maybe it doesn't bother them, but if that was the most common impression i left on a bunch of different groups of strangers that i wont get to interact with again afterwards i would feel pretty sad and ashamed about it.

anyways. i need to partake in tasks that do not involve rambling on my phone now but if you read this that is cool thank you, if you didnt that is fine i understand this became a ridiculously long post out of nowhere i do not blame u, and. i hope you have a good day. ok goodbye

[jangyeevns]

sorry if this is old new also u don’t have to post this but one of my first discord rp experiences was w zelda & fleur and they literally made me feel like a villain for a whole month bc of their lack of communication + blocking me but then fleur unblocked me and kept joining my rps (to snoop and vaguely try to plot and act like nothing ever happened) so i’m glad u and others have been saying stuff cuz these people seriously made me feel like a menace to the rpc 💀

i'm definitely gonna answer because when don't i have something to say? LMAO

i can't speak to the zelda claims that have circulated since i've never interacted with them myself, so this is strictly an issue with fleur for me. i wasn't villainized until i got in the way of one of her potential endgames for her muse, in fact we were friends beforehand, but i look back on what we would talk about and can only feel pure disgust because i was a villain then, at least in my mind.

what was said at that time will never see the light of day because i ( and the other mun she befriended in our three way dm ) deeply regret fuelling her spite, jealousy and manipulative bullshit and don't care to have her use any receipts i have to suit her narrative or harass these muns even further, and i hate having the knowledge that i allowed her any influence over my judgment of others, over a lot of things actually. it’s not something i have to disclose necessarily as most would hate to put themselves in a negative light, but it’s to show not only accountability for what i myself participated in ( it was giving mean girls 2 vibes . calling it the og would inflate someone’s ego i’m sure ), but also that i have been on more than one side of fleur's fury and don't care to have others deal with it, end of.

... except not, because this is gonna be a whole rant FJSKGKDK

you are most definitely NOT a villain if fleur of all people claimed that you were back then, when she was in a position of authority and has famously used being an admin to her abusive advantage. i'm so sorry you've been on the receiving end of her god awful behaviour, but you're in pretty great company if i do say so myself 💅🏻 i can imagine it's difficult for anyone with that kind of history with another mun to have them in their own groups time and time again, especially when her behaviour has never strayed from the basic m.o. she's outed herself for ( by being a pathological liar in Everyone's dms ), but i hope this allows people to take a step back and consider the possible façade those like fleur will don to gain the attention and approval they so desperately crave.

at this point, receipts aren't necessary for me to believe someone, because i know what i've been through and my truth, as well as the experiences of a handful of other muns that correlate to everything that's been discussed this week – most of it we discussed months ago, so it tells you how easily you can find people in the community who've had a fucking bizarre encounter with her and how insane it is that it took this long to bring it into a more public space. you are valid, your stance is more than justified and if you get rude ass anons for deciding to call her ass out? don't mind her sheep ( and fleur disguising herself as one ), they don't know any better even at their big ages.

the gaslighting and harassment are out there now, and while i'm sure she'll still creep up with her new discord and attempt to do as she always does, i would assume other muns will be more vigilant moving forward and that's what matters most to me in all of this; sure, i'm being petty as fuck when she's brought up or when she invades my boundaries that me blocking her should've made VERY obvious, but my concern lies with the other muns she could manipulate, terrorize and use to her heart's content. they don't deserve to deal with that shit nor should we pipe down just because it bothers others, 2023 is the year of accountability and people can either join the movement or fuck right off 🤷🏻‍♀️

[fite-club]

Greg here, sorry for the long one here, you gotta almost feel sorry for them by this point bc I bet often their need to feel oppression over trans women stems from an insecurity they refuse to address. It only took me about a week to address mine and come to terms with it to clear unfair bias’ — I can’t imagine making a whole blog dedicated to transandrophobia now. I do agree with the sentiment that trans men do experience erasure in media (which probably doesn’t help for learning about yourself and whatnot)(not to mention most trans woman rep is Very Bad—) but I think it’s a tedious thing to talk about because it’s not necessarily like that’s experiencing violence from misogyny, which feels like a more direct problem from oppression that trans women face. I had to kinda face the fact that a lot of the violence I have faced was due to “being a woman” and I can’t necessarily say it would be the same when I transition because that’s a personal “only time will tell” situation. And as you’ve said before, the violence a trans man can face is due to being trans, not a man. A trans woman faces violence both for being trans and for being a woman, ie making transmisogyny a more direct threat and needing a distinguishing word from transphobia. I’ve seen trans men on here say too “but people see trans men as women making it the same thing!!” But they fail to realize this only occurs if you happen to be someone who doesn’t “pass” really at all and as someone who is afraid of eventually “not passing” idk man I’m not really expecting people to harass me the same way if I start to “look more like a man”— I have already been confirmed by multiple trans men in my life that people DO treat you differently, whether thats a scary prospect or not—

And it’s wild to me now because I’m certain a term like “anti transmasculinity” is moreso the words they’re looking for in regard’s specifically to the whole “girls who make themselves ugly ugly men” rhetoric straight guys are all about, but transphobia has always been more about direct and violent oppressive forces, not just insecurities and psychological gender expectation tedium.

yeah i’m just gonna post this. i’ve speculated that a lot of the insistence on transandrophobia being a thing (and misogyny not being the thing inherent to transphobia regarding trans men) comes from dysphoria. y’know, i get it! you don’t want to have to grapple with the fact that the issues you face are not because you are seen as a man. but does it not make one feel more dysphoric to hear over and over again that trans men don’t and will never pass…? that’s why i don’t understand the resistance to hearing out the trans men who explain our experiences with male privilege post-transition as passing men. we would know, we went through it, we experienced the shift ourselves, and most importantly we aren’t implying that everyone is in our exact position with our exact experiences. your last paragraph here says it all

[alwayscraftynight]

Salutations it is I, Jacob Hopkins redemption fic writer person.

Even though I don’t follow you I still regularly look at your tumblr for Jacob Cringefailloserman Hopkins content (your art’s very good by the way). To respond to the post you made about me, I’m not at all disappointed with your response and it’s been really helpful with characterizing a character with a total of 5 minutes of screen time in the show, and whose only purpose is to make plot happen and to make fun of conspiracy theorists.

The reason that I don’t follow you, remain anonymous, and didn’t initially respond to your response is as you have guessed because I am uncomfortable with the proshipping. It’s something that I’ve been thinking about for a while and I’ve come to the conclusion that as long as it’s kept to a fictional space and it’s not taken to an extreme it’s something I can tolerate and I’m fine interacting with people who do partake in it. I promise to not harass, insult, or be nasty in general to you or anyone else in the pro ship community, and will go by the golden rule of don’t like don’t interact. Still gonna keep things anonymous though.

With that being said, progress on the fic has been slow. It’s my first time writing outside of a school setting and I’m not that good at it to boot. Putting my thoughts and ideas into words is like pulling teeth, and I have gained a tremendous respect for people who write regularly either professionally or as a hobby. 

I’ve rewritten the first scene five times now (though the one I’ve most recently came up with I’m pretty sure I’m going to stick with), and I’ve only got a good four or so chapters planned out definitively. But mark my words I’m getting this written. 

This man has been in my brain since November 2021 when I thought it would be funny if he was in dead cells because both Jacob and Dead Cells person use traps. Eventually in December 2022 I decided to start writing a fic about Jacob getting a redemption where he’d go on the infinity train but that was scrapped pretty quickly. Then it was about his experience in prison, but I don’t have the write something as nuanced as that and I’d need to study the hell out of prisons. Then finally after the owl house finished and the human realm was never made aware of the demon realm’s existence, the fic that I’m writing now started to take shape.

What I write will have its problems because of my inexperience. There will be plot points that are confusing, dialogue that sounds artificial, descriptions that are bland, and a number of other problems that I don’t even know I’ll face. But I promise you this, I’m going to put my fucking soul into this thing. 

People who forgot about Jacob entirely, who are neutral about him, or hold animosity towards him will read my fic and they will feel a fraction of the emotions that I feel about this middle aged cartoon man. And it will be glorious. And we will no longer be so alone.

I can’t promise that the fic will be released anytime soon as I want to get at least an outline of the whole plot completed as well as a sizeable number of chapters before I do so, but I’m going to promise to work on it every day (as long as daydreaming is included in the definition of working).

Good luck on making your AU, other drawings, and whatever else it is you’ll pursue. I’ll make sure to link you to the fic whenever I get the first chapter out. 

Cheers

PS 

To repay the seratonin you have given me by making content about Jacob that doesn’t make me reenact the homelander in hallway scene, here are a list of songs I’ve put in a Spotify playlist that reflect either themes of the fic, the general vibes of it, or both. 

Love I need / My Ordinary Life : The living tombstone

The main character / Against the kitchen floor / …well better than the alternative : Will Wood

Coffee : Jack Stauber

Le festin : Camille, Michael Giacchino

Under pressure : Queen, David Bowie

World’s smallest violin : AJR

The mind electric : Miracle Musical

Once in a lifetime : Talking Heads

Gats : Susumu Hirasawa

Space song : Beach House

Undertale : Toby Fox

I'm a bit tired and I keep putting off my needed break so this probably won't be as long and comprehensible as it could be I apologize 😭

Hello anon, it's cool seeing you again! I wanted to clarify I didn't mean to come across as rude if I did in my post, it's completely understandable to stay anonymous if that's what you feel more comfortable doing, and thank you for being civil about my weird opinions lol.

It's so easy to get stuck on the beginning of stuff, I'm also in the rewriting stage if that makes you feel any better. I'm not experienced in writing specifically but I can share some advice I've heard if that helps. Writing and making stories in general requires a lot of brainstorming, so don't feel like your writing is inadequate for going through a lot of rough drafts. I like to save my drafts to add to other projects later (most of which take place entirely inside my brain but I digress)

Just remember that this stuff is supposed to take time and to just be patient with yourself y'know? I hope you're happy with what you decide to stick with and you can achieve what you want to achieve with your fic 👍

Also LOVE the music I definitely get the feel you're going for! I know quite a few of the songs already but I'll be sure to check out the ones I haven't heard :]

Cheers! And good luck!

[ravenousnightwind]

(Make way, this is gonna be a long post for some of you to keep your attention with. If you're gonna judge me, please fuck off and read the whole damn thing before actually commenting on it. Thanks, because I actually agree with the people who posted above, im just going through the why we shouldn't use the blanket of paganism bad mentality.)

So, as someone who not only suffers from a few mental disabilities and diseases, you might call them, or I do, as they debilitate my life and force me to live in an almost sickly manner. But also someone who was verbally, physically, and medically harassed and abused by authorities BECAUSE I was/am pagan and had depression since before high-school.

It isn't that we have mental problems. It isn't that we have a greater degree of risk though the risk is there. You can be a critical thinker and manage it well and still be pagan and even believe you're Lilith incarnate for one example. Not saying that situation didn't need to be addressed okay, cuz it probably did.

What I'm saying here is that there's always this underlining subtext I find from being pagan from the early 2000s and onward. That when people find out you have mental wellness issues, or whatever, they actually think maybe you're not all there. They not only will respond with questioning your mental fortitude but also prod you on subjects or things, or even worse because you believe something totally off the books than what's talked about in Sunday school or even Wicca.

I mean I was forcibly drugged because they thought I was crazy. The problem is, believing in something has nothing to do with having mental problems. The real problem is the persons ability to self reflect. Yes, having mental health problems can have a risk of potentially causing a person to think they're Jesus. Or Odin. Or that their pencil fell and it was Loki. Or they worship Hel and there for had a right to dig up someone's dead cat. Like, those are issues associated with religion and mental health and need to be addressed. But, just because someone is a polytheist, like myself, doesn't mean we don't understand the concepts between ourselves and reality, or even what's theoretical. (All religion in some sense is theoretical and based on experience.)

It all has to do with the individual. There will be individuals with mental health problems who have a history of abusing or believing in things that we're all looking at them like, dude what you doin... So it isn't that when you have mental health problems that you shouldn't have access to religion. It's more that when literally anyone talks about how they're Loki in human form, wanting to or actually causing problems for other people and end up hurting someone, is when it's concerning. The people who don't question themselves and what they believe.

So of course, always check on people and always get regular checkups with your providers. Take your medication unless there's a reason why you shouldn't like it makes you feel weird, but always discuss these things with your provider. First and foremost because maybe it is a manic episode or some sort of mental flairup that was simply not predicted or even known about.

But, you do not have to have a history of mental health issues to have this problem. Anyone can have this issue when they do not go through the steps to self reflect on a regular basis. Like for example, maybe talking to the gods is really me just talking to myself? But that's okay cuz it helps me do better and feel better.

Secret mission stuff is always kinda a questionable thing for one, because typically that has to do with past life or I guess prior to life supposed agreements etc. Which is actually a very specific set of belief that may not even be pagan. Even then it can happen. People that you think can come off totally sane at work but when you meet them in church or even outside of work, they can be pretty crazed.

My point is, don't assume that someone who has mental health problems will always have a problem with paganism or witchcraft because of the idea of oooo magic stuffff and gods and demons and stuff. Rather, the concern should be when they talk about cult mentalities and or missions from gods and other questionable things like that in such a way that it goes beyond your normal "I feel like a dragon" to "I'm going to ravage them so bad and they'll feel the curse upon them because my God told me things about them" or something to that degree? That talk of otherworldly stuff and how idk, end of the world crap, or being special because yggrasil told them they were. It's when they're totally sure of their own belief in such a fantastical way, that you should be concerned. At least from my own experience and opinion.

(I actually knew this guy who I was concerned about when he asked me about paganism and witchcraft. He started saying strange things like how demonic he was and talked about flying and other such things. At this point I was like okay so maybe I shouldn't talk to him about this at all then. His ability to understand what it was was just not there. His ability for critical thinking just..was nonexistent so it's not like I don't get what the OP means)

However, I'm certain some will claim I'm like saying yeah don't go or listen to doctors or do anything cuz I'm secretly telling people to not do it. Bullshit. Everyone, and I mean literally everyone, needs to see their provider and get a mental wellness check.

I say things in this way, in a broad sort of way, because anytime i talk about paganism with certain..how shall I say..rural providers or people in areas with less access to information? I'm met with a similar response above. That I shouldn't, or they'd prod me about things in an obvious way to probe me. They'd even debate me about stuff I believe sometimes. I had a friend who had one of their providers debate them about being a Christian instead of pagan? Like lol

My other point to saying all this is that there's this whole idea that mental health issues are bad, that we're bad because idk having BPD or bad because depression, bad because of schizophrenia. That paganism and other alternative less organized religions are bad because they provide an environment where it can cause an individual to essentially have a psychotic episode. While this can be true for paganism, it can also be true for any religion, as what we're talking about is simply something that cannot be proven by science at this given time.

Yes, mental health, always check it, always check yourself, but no, don't just assume because someone has a problem that it means they're having a psychotic episode. But always be aware when it starts to sound weird, like the above mention mentionables, that it doesn't matter what religion it actually is or what the person has a history of in terms of mental health problems.

I feel like I shouldn't have to say this, but the thought occurred to me that there are people who do. Probably even people right now looking at my blog going "omgz he's crazy". Just because I'm a polyethist, people have always used that as a way to attack me because of my problems. Especially in the past. So, I'm just sharing my thoughts as a way to mitigate the harassment and the assumptions. (Though I know there be people out there who will do it anyway. I'm looking at you Trever (nonperson) )

People with mental health problems can and do practice religion. It's not a bad thing, the problem is when you notice they start to not be able to question things in a way they should probably question them. Idk I guess that's my take, take it how you will, but ultimately like I said above, I agree with the other posters, I'm just expanding on the subject from my own experience.

People with more complex mental illnesses should be careful when they get into witchcraft and spirituality. I knew someone once with bpd and schitzofrenia and she was unrecognisable after 2 years. She started to believe she's lilith incarnate and her purpose is to teach people how all Abrahamic faiths and the god are malicious, stolen and turn people to paganism and the good ol'days instead.

I'm so sorry that happened. That said, there are certain risk factors associated with all mental illnesses, most especially those that aren't receiving any treatment or support. Furthermore, different practices and beliefs carry different kinds of risks for people, especially for those who lack critical thinking or discernment skills.

The thing more people need to do is recognize individual risk factors so they can make informed choices, do what they can to get support and treatment, and work on developing their critical thinking and discernment skills. (Of course, everyone needs to be doing this last one!) This is much more helpful than the blanket "don't do X if you're mentally ill!" approach.

[dainobones]

i think that if you want to support fic writers who are being harassed over their works but you’re not sure if you’d be overstepping boundaries by talking to them on sns, you should comment on their fics. don’t engage with the harassment, don’t try to be loving enough to offset the harassment, just tell them you like their fics. and stick to talk about the fics you like. because when you’re being dogpiled it’s so difficult to engage with any kind of personal comments, it’d feel way more genuine and do much more to reduce the damage, imo

[stars-in-our-skies]

So I read your post about fujoshis and I agree with most of it. the thing I didn't really understand though was what you said about how despite the fact that women who fetishise gay men do exist, the Fujoshi doesn't exist, and is a TERF invention? I'm gonna assume by "fujoshi" people mean a very specific kind of gay fetishiser. So not an "omg I've always wanted a gay best friend" kind of person, but more of a .. "The dreaded fujoshi reads way too many BL mangas and manhwas and is obsessed with gay men" kind of thing. In my experience, and also based on hearsay from the queers in my country, these types of people do exist- though to be completely fair I've never met nor heard of a grown woman who fits this description. Mostly it's teenagers and kids who are- presumably- girls, though heck if I know lol. To be frank, as a transmasc queer guy, I don't give two shits what people get off to in private. I could not care less if the fujoshi "fetishises" me in that sense. In fact I really, really do not want to know.

Which ties in neatly with my next point- whilst I don't care about what people do in their private time, I do care about how they treat real life queer people. Both offline and online. Overstepping boundaries with real life queer men, harassing them online and offline, stuff like that, I've seen it and heard of it, and it's really gross. Even that "smol bean" stuff, honestly, whilst not a full on hate crime, it does count as a microaggression. It can trigger dysphoria, at the very least.

What's worse is that the local fujoshi population is homophobic as fuck in real life. Like they'll say things about how it's a "sin" and they don't think real queer people should have marriage equality, that sort of thing. Even if most the offenders are kids and teens it's still really frustrating.

so I guess my question is.. I'm not really sure how you've come to the conclusion that the "creepy, harasser of gay men" fetishiser is purely a TERF invention and even if she were to exist she's perfectly harmless and simply a misguided ally? I'm pro-fujin, btw. I have strong opinions on the TERFy SWERFy appropriation of the Japanese word fujoshi, and I don't think the answer is to gatekeep all queer media from perceived "women"- I just think that there's some nuance to be had in the Fetishiser Discourse.

i've had this ask in my inbox for quite some time. however, i haven't been in the right headspace to discuss politics in-depth, so i put this on the backburner to return to later. having thought it over a bit, i think i'm ready to continue the conversation. i'm sorry for taking so long, but i hope this response is satisfactory.

first, an amendment to my initial post-- reading back through it, i'm not as proud of my tone. in parts i sound preachy, and in others it just straight up doesn't make sense. i'm chalking this up to my neurodivergence and difficulties with portraying what i mean. i'm not going to rewrite the whole thing, but in summary, the points i made were two-fold:

1) that the archetype of "cishet woman who fetishizes gay men," --aka, the 'western fujoshi' -- was most certainly fed into, if not coined by, TERFs; and

2) that this had a lasting impact on the transmasculine community (and, on a broader scale, the queer community as a whole.)

having said that, i'll move on. to address the meat of your statement:

as you stated, you've never actually encountered this "dreaded fujoshi." neither have i! for the most part, i do not believe they exist, as i've already mentioned and will come back to in a moment.

but also as i've mentioned, i do believe there are people out there who, in one way or another, reduce gay men to nothing more than a fetish or pornography while doing nothing to prove themselves as allies to those same gay men outside of sex. what i mean to say is that these people do not exist in massive numbers. i've certainly never seen them in my almost-decade of being in queer spaces, and i've never spoken to someone who has. you have mentioned as much. i am not referring to them when i refer to "misguided allies" as you've put it -- they're fetishizers. this happens to every queer and/or marginalized identity in some shape or form, not unique to gay men. i'll touch on this later.

rather, the women i'm referring to are those i believe to be closer to misguided allies than a genuine threat -- in my (and your) experience, tend to be teenagers and young girls. in most cases, they aren't straight. and in a large number of cases, they are trans themselves, whether they're aware of it or not.

what i see as likely happening is these teens and kids are just discovering what being queer is after being sheltered their entire life. mind you, i'm referring to western society. i can't comment on, say, asian queer spaces. i'm not asian! but for the most part, it seems like they are genuinely misguided children who are just learning about being gay or trans and politics and their views on the world.

i'm not sure how old you are, anon, but the younger generations were raised on technology. a lot of us have been surrounded by politics and news at our fingertips for our entire lives. the most likely scenario here is that these young teens realize they're queer (&/or find queer media interesting) and, not knowing much better, they become fascinated with this "taboo" subject that has been inaccessible to them up until now.

it reminds me of the twilight era -- wherein young girls were enamored with the plot (or maybe, the pretty boys) because it was made for women. fanfic and media that centers queer people are largely made by minorities. it's easy for these teens to see themselves in it; or, in the case of women, to consume it without having to worry about misogyny. this is a similar topic that i won't dive too deeply into, but the appeal of boylove to women because of the lack of women is something that has been brought up in discourse surrounding the term fujoshi, and i'm sure you're familiar with it. so having said that, i'm sure we can both see why it might be appealing to this demographic.

i think, for the most part, what's described here --the fascination of gay men, the 'smol beans', the referring to it as 'sinful'-- is a misguided reaction from young queer people who don't know better. a lot of the current discourse in the community is being perpetrated by that same demographic (see: anything happening on twitter) so it isn't too far off to believe that those same people could hold misguided views. i think if we're going to talk about problems surrounding the younger queers perpetrating queerphobic rhetoric, it's a much bigger conversation than the fujoshi one, and it certainly doesn't end here.

it's more likely these girls are going through internalized issues than externalized. and that is certainly a problem -- but one that needs to be handled differently than it currently is.

side note, i'm not sure what 'local fujoshi population' you're referring to. we've established that adult women (or, really, anyone over the age of 16 in my experience) do not typically fall under this archetype nor exist on any massive scale. the examples you've given are just textbook homophobia -- they have nothing to do with the Myth of The Fujoshi, so to speak. anyone can be homophobic, not just this specific genre of women or whatever.

so I guess my question is.. I'm not really sure how you've come to the conclusion that the "creepy, harasser of gay men" fetishiser is purely a TERF invention and even if she were to exist she's perfectly harmless and simply a misguided ally?

we're referring to two different things here. "creepy, harasser of gay men" is not a common type of person, not in the fujoshi sense. i've said as much.

i specifically brought up the transmedicalist example in my initial post because it mirrors the same issue. essentially, transmedicalists claim that being transgender is becoming trendy and not taken as a serious issue. they have this idea that there's this terrible AFAB 'woman' who binds because it's 'trendy' and uses neopronouns because she is disrespectful to "real trans people" or even delusional. they point to xenogenders, neopronouns, nonbinary people, and anyone they don't believe to be "trans enough" as an example of this.

this "transtrender crowd" does not actually exist. it is an exaggeration of what they think is happening in order to fearmonger and push their point. there MIGHT be cis people pretending to be transgender because they think it's trendy. but the thing is, if we treat everyone like they're 'pretending', we're going to divide our community, and we won't get to the bottom of the actual issue (that, again, does not exist.) if we're so afraid of this hypothetical scenario, we'll only cause more infighting. we need to believe people in good faith -- this same argument applies to the 'misguided ally' thing above.

THIS is what i meant when i said that this 'fujoshi' you have described does not exist. she is an exaggeration of what people think is happening. and it is that exaggeration that TERFs specifically have created and fed into. they created the idea of a 'woman who fetishizes gay men so much she wants to be one', and then it got repeated -- so far that the transmasculine community has fallen for it, and that the word 'fujoshi' no longer just means 'a woman who reads BL' to most queer people.

this fetishization we have described might occur occasionally, yes. there MIGHT be cishet women who only see gay men as her Smol Yaoi Beans. but it does not exist on a widespread scale -- not to the degree where it warrants this much fearmongering, and the people who are mostly affected by this fear are transmasculine individuals.

the 'fujoshi' being referred to directly stems from TERFs' misogyny and transphobia. they want us to fight each other, and they have succeeded. that was my point.

and, before i go, there's one more thing i forgot to mention initially. you didn't bring this up, but it occurred to me that we haven't discussed how this issue affects asian gay men. in the west, of course -- again, i'm not from asia.

i think if anyone was going to be hurt most by the Fujoshi Trope, it's queer asian men. except, i am white. i cannot tell you how discrimination against queer asian men looks or how it is perpetrated. i cannot give you my personal experiences with it because i do not have them. it exists, for sure -- and i think that it's a part of a larger issue, namely anti-asian racism and queerphobia as a whole. that is something i want to leave to queer asian men -- if any would like to comment on it, i am always eager to listen and adjust my views as such.

taking this into account, that is the only point i could see towards 'women fetishizing gay men' (aka the bastardized western form of a "fujoshi"). i believe my points still stand, namely of this being a TERF-created issue. of course, if anyone wants to discuss it more, my inbox is open.