#this post is NOT about transandrophobia though if that even needed to be said. because that doesn't exist.

[enlichened]

this is just smth I've been thinking abt lately because I've been seeing posts talking abt how transfems and transmascs often see themselves in similar/the same characters. and that it might make less sense for transmascs to see themselves in these characters because the character themself struggles with masculinity or being forced into a box.

While I do think this can be true in some cases (especially those where it REALLY wouldn't make sense with the character's backstory that they would've been allowed to transition at all) I think a lot of the time it still does make sense, because as a transmasc most of my time having come out to someone, they expect me to immediately fall into toxic masculinity or whatever it is they feel like men should be doing, and if I reject this or any part of it, I'm ungrateful. I either let them treat me that way, or I'm not man enough or aren't trying hard enough to not be misgendered. If I'm going to say I'm a man, I should at least act like it and pretend to enjoy or accept what they give me and the box that they defined.

I know transfems experience this sort of thing too, even if in different ways! I just was musing on why transmascs often relate to characters who struggle with masculinity too.

[transfemme-shelterdog]

could I get an opinion on this? (extremely transandrophobic and intersexist bingo board)

to clarify some of the vaguely iffy ones on here-

trans women often do get more visibility, positive or negative- (this does not correspond to violence rates)

male/female socialization as in people raised male or female have different, though not necessarily bad, perspectives + experiences.

guys/dude is generally gender neutral but if someone's uncomfortable respect that

this has like. 800 notes and most from transmascs that are agreeing with this sadly. the creator of this board is self described tme

I'll go point by point, left to right/top to bottom:

There's nothing wrong with they/them pronouns, or any pronouns honestly. This just comes across as exorsexist (which is on par for these people)

Wow, two points in and already contradictory. Honey, you're the one saying that you can't have a complex gender by shitting on people who are enby

The fact that I engaged once with these people just last night and I had self described TERFs in my comments and reblogs, shitting on me, and calling me a "he/him" and "male rapist" and other fun things says everything I need to know about this issue. I've never once seen a "transmisogynist" (read: transandrophobia poster) reblog from a TERF, and I'm very active in the disk-horse

Sis, you're the one shitting on trans men. These guys are just defending themselves.

You fuckers literally accused me of being a rapist/predator with a "laundry list of fetishes" who "has teen girls tell him about their fetishes", nice try

Ok, this is a complex one. Systemically, misandry (as used to describe cishet males being oppressed) isn't really a thing. Is there going to be individual instances of cishet men getting fucked by the system? Sure. But systemically, cishet men have a lot of advantages that others aren't afforded. That being said, we both know they mean "hatred of any men for any reason" which is bullshit. These people shit on trans men all the time.

Well, they are? They call trans men TME and trans women TMA and never apply it to cis people, thus it's just another sex based binary

We are? Just in different ways.

Refer to point 1 and 2, hypocrite

What's their point? So what's the minimum amount of examples that you need to prove a point?

I don't think any trans mascs say that, and those that would, probably would apologize and make an effort not to call a trans woman dude if she's uncomfortable with it. I do agree, it's not neutral, and hate being called it myself

My sister in christ, you likely use the term "theyfab"

n/a

Well, perisex trans women can't get pregnant, and trans men/mascs can, and have dysphoria around it. Not to mention corrective rape. It's a valid form of oppression that only affects perisex afab trans mascs.

Don't know of any zionist trans mascs, also did fucking TW make this?

Yes, you do, and you are. Good girl!

I've had these women hyperfocus on my kinks and shit on me for it. Never seen a trans dude do the same.

Yeah, well at least trans dudes are willing to fuck trans girls. Can't say the same for you lot (transhet t4t my beloved)

Yeah, we are hyper-fucking-visible. Look at any studies done on "trans people", and it's always trans women. Music wise? Typically all the traction goes to trans girls. Media? Mainly trans girls. Online? Mainly trans girls.

Really gonna act like you aren't taught "how to be a girl/boy" growing up? I know how to fit in with cis men, and easily boymode because of that.

Well, you can. This is Tumblr baby girl, make a post, tag it, and send it off to the world. I do it all the time, and people listen to me.

You girls are trans radfems and TERFs, sorry. Don't like the label? Change.

Isn't this the point you're making in the last box?

Trans men experience a shit load more misogyny growing up than trans women do after coming out. This is just a fact. Even more so in non-western countries (looking at you @that-satireguy my beloved non-western trans peep)

????????

[velvetvexations]

it’s driving me up the wall that the statement “trans women, notably those in the public eye, are frequently the target of transphobic harassment campaigns, so perhaps take a moment to check the source before you spread any callouts or accusations to make sure you’re not falling for TERF or kiwifarms misinformation” is now being misused by some to mean “if you ever see a trans woman with a big platform say something loaded/bigoted/openly hateful of her own free volition to her whole audience with her full chest, you’re not ever allowed to confront her about this or you’re personally responsible for every hate comment or harassment she receives ever” like it’s SO insidious to tell marginalised people they should shut up and take it. full offence, that musician is a grown woman who willingly puts her opinions on a public blog with her name attached, nobody was holding a gun to her head demanding she made those dumbass comments, and acting like she’s too frail to take accountability for what she does or shouldn’t be expected to learn that actions have consequences is laughable. yes people are now taking it too far but this happens every time, bc some people are just as immature AND bc bad faith parties love taking advantage of situations like this to instigate even more shit. again, insisting marginalised groups should let some big name individual be bigoted to them to protect her from harassment or else be blamed for it is so unbelievably entitled. the same thing goes for that “people just use accusations of racism against trans women to be transmisogynistic” post, these people need a reality check and realise they’re not the only victims in existence.

none of the following anger is directed at you, anons

I wanna be clear that I have no idea what's going on with Patricia Taxxon. She blocked me awhile ago and aside from seeing her post about transandrophobia and knowing someone made a parody comic about her that I didn't like primarily for the phrase "born female,"* I don't really know about the situation around her as it stands because I don't keep track of random radfems.

As this first anon said, a popular musician using their platform to be horrible to another marginalized group should get sprayed with water like a cat and the fact that she's a bigot be on the record. Weaponizing old nudes or dragging up old accusations of things, however, is bad and should not be done. It's just not a thing you should be doing to someone, no matter how much you think they deserve it.

There are a lot of White women saying things like "trans women get accused of racism to deflect accusations of transmisogyny." It's annoying that people acting in bad faith are giving fuel to the fire that any criticism of trans women is inherently transmisogyny. She's never going to connect the dots between "people are upset with the things I said" and "I said extremely harmful and hurtful things" if her victim complex is being validated. It's also going to encourage them to continue harassing and spreading shit about me, and possibly escalate to digging up past stuff to call me out on, because I guarantee you eventually one of them is going to say something like "so karmic of this to happen to Velvet after she reblogged all those posts accusing Emily Programmersocks of sacrificing children to Satan" as though that's a thing that's ever happened.

Stop harassing her, if that is indeed what's happening, because, again, I do not keep track of the latest events in TRF World.

*yes, in spite of me personally calling myself male, I still think that's a bad thing! wow!

[gay-otlc]

https://www.tumblr.com/arson-goku/748767908456448000

What exactly is wrong with this post? I’m confused is it just a criticism of the beginning or the whole thing?

If you're asking someone to explain a criticism of a post, I would recommend asking the person who posted said criticism?? Because I had not seen the post you linked until now and I was not really the one criticizing it.

So I can't speak for the op of the post I reblogged but speaking for myself having now seen the full post, I think overall it is a good post. It is absolutely important to talk about medical transandrophobia and the way trans men&mascs who pass as male struggle to access necessary, even lifesaving medical care.

I don't like that the part at the beginning frames it as though that op thinks we're focusing "too much" on non-passing trans men, which is... very much not the case. When people do emphasize non-passing trans men, it's not to erase trans men who do pass, it's to push back on the constant erasure of trans men who don't.

The people who deny that transandrophobia exists/is a problem repeatedly insist that trans men can pass mostly effortlessly ("all they need is a haircut and a hoodie") and can easily access medical transition. So we have to talk about trans men who are in an environment where they can't pass, who physically can't pass, who don't want to pass, who can't access medical transition, who don't want to medically transition, etc in a desperate attempt to get people to recognize that these types of trans men exist, and are suffering, and that their experiences fucking matter and don't deserve to be erased.

(Also in these same discussions I have seen people also talk about how trans men who pass can still be outed, and how trans men who pass can be harassed, assaulted, denied necessary resources or medical care for looking too masculine, so I don't feel that passing trans men are being ignored in any way? Maybe the op of the post you linked is in different circles and doesn't see those same discussions, idk)

The beginning of this post just seems to communicate "I feel as though my struggles as a trans man who passes well don't get acknowledged enough" by saying "because the struggles of trans men who don't pass get acknowledged too much," which again, isn't the case. I don't think that op had bad intentions, but it came off that way.

(Also, in seeing the screenshot of the post's beginning without context, I thought it was going to continue something like "trans men who do pass have all the male privilege but don't want to admit they have male privilege so they keep talking about trans men who don't pass to insist trans men are oppressed because they are whiny mras" or some shit. Which is a take that pisses me off. Knowing the actual full content of the post, I am significantly less pissed off, I think it's a good post overall with a clumsily worded beginning)

[molsno]

just because transmascs don't face the exact same type of oppression that transfems do, doesn't mean that we don't face oppression at all. you don't have to use the term transandrophobia, but don't act like we're the pinnacle of society and we garner respect wherever we go, whoever we interact with. we tried to make our own space in the trans community wider by creating a term to describe our unique experience with oppression, and the community immediately shot us down.

it's a good thing I never said that! c'mon now, do you really think you're gonna convince me to change my mind by putting words in my mouth?

if I started smashing together different aspects of my identity and pretended they formed a new and unique kind of oppression, where would it end? should I start talking about "alesbophobia" because I'm an asexual lesbian? sure it presents some challenges that manifest in specific ways but those challenges aren't unique, other asexuals and lesbians experience them separately.

what if added my transness into the mix to call it "transalesbophobia"? yeah these are all inseparable parts of me and again, I do feel like I experience them in ways specific to my being an ace lesbian trans woman, but none of these things meaningfully intersect in a way that makes the resulting product unique.

except, oh wait, whoops, I've only been giving you examples of mashups between actual marginalized identities I hold. I almost gave you too much credit there! let's go with something more analogous to transandrophobia.

suppose I were to start talking about the specific experiences I have as a white trans woman, and I decided to give those experiences a name like "blanchetransmisogyny", and I started insisting that this is something important that white trans women need to be able to talk about. even though yes, my whiteness is inseparable from the rest of my identity and that results in the transmisogyny against me taking shape in specific ways, those manifestations aren't unique. if they were unique, then that would imply that there's a widespread hatred of white people within society, a la "reverse racism". but there's no such thing! I may be marginalized for being a trans woman, but I still hold privilege over trans women of color because I'm white. insisting otherwise would absolutely reek of white supremacy, and poc would have every reason to "shoot me down" as you put it.

that's what you're doing with transandrophobia. it's not about "describing your unique experiences with oppression", it's about denying your male privilege. yes, you are oppressed for being trans, and within the context of larger society, you will very much feel that oppression. but the fact of the matter is that you still hold privilege over trans women just by way of being a man. and guess what! denying that fact is extremely misogynistic. if a cis man did the same thing you're doing but to a cis woman, there would be no denying his misogyny. so why is it ok for you to do it to a trans woman?

and if I'm being honest, having misogynistic trans guys coming into my inbox to mansplain oppression to me every week is testing my patience! I don't have to explain any of this to you, especially not when I've already written numerous posts about it that you can browse at your convenience. next time I might just decide to be the mean bitch tranny you all seem to think I am!

[mogai-sunflowers]

ok this is not at you but i need to get this out because i almost posted it to my own blog. cuz im pissed lmao /lh

-

people have such an obsession with creating the “good” teams and “bad” teams in this community, not realizing that it can just cause further oppression, suffering, and less social acceptance for people.

i used to run a blog for alloaro discussion, since i formerly identified that way. i remember when people said alloarophobia couldn’t exist, because you can’t be oppressed for being allo. sure, alloaros are oppressed, but only for being aro. it’s not a special microlabel because being allo is a privilege.

maybe that’s why i don’t buy into the current debate on terms like “transandrophobia.” because it’s recycled. it’s not new, it’s not a “hot take,” it’s bigotry taken to its furthest point under a new form of discourse, because it always evolves. does “androphobia” exist? on it’s own, no. but like alloarophobia, it does exist under certain circumstances, due to being in another group.

allos aren’t oppressed as a group, but gay allos are for expressing their sexuality in a way society doesn’t approve of, for being openly sexual with people of the same gender, for being allo in a way that amatonormantivity didn’t account for. alloaros are, for being okay with sexuality without romance, for being okay with FWBs, for not wanting the nuclear family, all while still being comfortable in their non-normative sexuality, and so on, so forth.

men aren’t oppressed as a group, but trans men are for not being seen as real men, for being forced into specific roles, for not having reproductive rights, for invisibility. men of color are, for how they’re painted as aggressive and violent, for how they’re often targets of unjustified attacks and even deaths for this very stereotype. mlm are, intersex men are, gender nonconforming men are.

when are people going to realize that this isn’t anything new, and they’re just being transphobic? i keep seeing it in terms of both gender and attraction. people think these jokes about how being a guy or liking guys is gross, when people literally die for being attracted to men, or for fighting to be considered one in a society that wants them to fade into obscurity. you aren’t being revolutionary, you aren’t lifting up whoever the fuck you think you are, you’re just causing more suffering for a group that frankly, has suffered fucking enough.

if you pick apart labels that describe oppression based off of whether the components exist on their own, you’re not an ally for any of us.

tell me what two magical components make up biphobia that “justify” the word existing. or aphobia, or even homophobia. is it okay for the term “alloarophobia” to exist even though “allophobia” doesn’t? if you’re in this community, there’s a 99% chance you’d say yes. because “allophobia” becomes possible under certain circumstances, such as being aro. kinda weird right? clearly, the axis doesn’t exist, because the two components on its own typically don’t. (sarcasm)

but that’s not really what the problem is, is it. this semantics over language, over whether the term is accurate based off of the etymology… that’s not the issue. the issue is, some people just don’t want to admit how deeply transphobic they are, and how willing they’d be to let huge chunks of us suffer and die because we don’t fit their perfect categorization of what “counts” or “deserves” to exist.

to some people, this shit is just a game and not lived experience. it’s internet discourse. because to them, it matters more than the lives and genuine safety of real queer people. it’s nice to know how many people in the queer community would turn on a dime and not stand for their fellow community members based off of it.

i’m honestly willing to bet a huge portion of these people would be the same ones who helped me get recloseted as an ace person because “aphobia can’t exist,” the same ones who called us “bihets” and based us off of our “privilege” instead of recognizing biphobia as a term. the day people realize that this is recycled bigotry and not some revolutionary OwnTM that you think it is will be the day we can finally move forward as a community instead of bickering and squabbling in the gutter.

these people are not just against transmasc allyship, but queer allyship as a whole, until they get over this shit. end of discussion.

anon this is the best description of this i think i've ever seen. you're so right. thank you thank you thank you.

[velvetvexations]

the fact that i've seen multiple transmascs happily reblogging/supporting the "bomb that kills all transmascs" thing makes me so fucking sad. i feel like we've understood with other issues how "ironic" edgy humor can desensitize us to the bigotry within it- but now we're just happy to let people joke about wiping a group of trans people out of existence? we have no problem with this? we're gonna normalize hatred based solely on identity and not behavior (like how theyfab claims to only target transmigoynistic transmascs)? the bomb kills all transmascs honey that includes you, TMpickmEs i never want to hear people criticizing transandrophobia theory again if this is what passes for transfeminism

It's exactly that kinna person who I was talking about when I was posting about identifying when I was getting victim blame-y and too hostile towards someone being self-destructive, because they make me sad and it's easier to hate them than sympathize. I hope they get better.

Transmasc: acts transmisogynystic because they see individual transandrophobic transfems Everyone(correct): that's bad and reactionary, you can't blame an entire group for a small portion of traumatized individuals who lash out at your group who may have been hurt by individual members of your group Transfem: acts transandrophobic because they see individual transmisogynystic transmascs Everyone (double standard): that's valid, if you've been hurt by individual members of a fellow minority group that gives you free reign to act reactionary and generalize a whole group based on the worst of it's members (this is not a universal thing, but it does exist and I've seen the double standard. I encourage calling out transmisogynystic transmascs, I just don't like the double standard in certain trans spaces. Treat reactionary thought as what it is: reactionary. No matter who it's from or against)

they fundamentally do not care about other people

why is it called transradfeminism instead of radical transfeminism?

Ask Thalia Bhatt.

I love transmasc mabel (and also transmasc ophelia) headcannons cause it's very comforting to turn the characters I related to hard when I was a kid into transmascs.

Yeah! Love that for you anon.

I wanted to thank you for your level-headed support and the platform for respectful intra-community discussions you've provided. I hope you're taking as much rest and recovery from the stresses of the Disc Horse™ as you need <3 (also, idk if you bake, but I found a really good recipe for snickerdoodles that definitely chased away some of my lingering holiday stress www.ambitiouskitchen(.)com/brown-butter-snickerdoodle-cookies/ )

oooh thank you anon!

I like how jokes about killing all transmascs are fine but TRFs are still harping on about that one guy that said something about - (not that I thought the original post was in good taste but. I do feel like jokes about killing all transmascs are worse actually) Now that I type it out it's kinda horrifying that there's so many people that are theoretically supportive of trans people that think those joked are okay actually.. somehow internalized it as normal till just now

TRFs would say that post was code for something worse but idk if "we're open about wanting to murder an entire group of marginalized people" is a W

- was just stirring shit up with the gravity falls discourse to distract from her only answers to questions about 'tme/tma' language is to call people stupid and tell them they are lying about their experiences.

As usual.

The thing with “Dipper can’t be trans because then Mabel would be transphobic!!” Is that I’ve seen so many posts on this site that have had no problem intentionally interpreting a characters actions as transphobic for the purpose of transfem headcanons? That’s usually don’t get push back? Even though I’m usually against intentionally trying to portray a character who isn’t bigoted in the source material as bigoted for no reason other than headcanons or jokes I don’t understand what the difference is here?

the difference is that it's a transmasc headcanon

My hot take is that both Dipper and Mabel are transmasc, but Dipper has always known and socially transitioned very early, and Mabel will be hit with the "oh fuck I am also a man" realization in his 20s in the same way a Looney Tunes critter would be with an anvil or perhaps a piano.

such a funny image lmao and very in-character

[multigenderswag]

not exactly an ask asking something about being multigender, just sharing my experiences

i have told this in one of my posts but being agenderfluid (that is, for me, being fluid between masculinity, femininity, neutrality, and abinarity and/or agenderness) is... such a weird experience, not gonna lie. like, i'm still in the closet, so people still see me as a "cis woman" (presenting femininely did not help) and i'm still having "cis passing privilege" (UGHHHH i'm sorry i've said that, i don't know how to describe this, it's very confusing), whatever that means, so all my queer experience is like, living vicariously from reading people's experiences with transmultiphobia; that means like, i'm thinking "i can only imagine what it's like if i came out"

and somewhere along the line i'm like "...hold up, all this time i'm kinda forcing myself to be JUST ONE GENDER ONLY PLEASE and somehow i'm kinda repulsed with the term multigender and genderfluid... doesn't that mean i'm experiencing transmultiphobia also???" LIKE, my gender is literally Everything and Nothing, All At Once, and i felt like my gender is an endless journey in space, like a hellish immortality of questioning. which can be saved by just... embracing the genderfluid label??? like, for this i'm so happy (even though quietly) when people talk about transmultiphobia, when people start talking about multigender experiences, like before that i almost always felt the NEED (yes, in caps because it's that bad) to be JUST ONE GENDER, AND ALWAYS LIKE THAT

now, i think i want to expand the conversation about transmultiphobia just a bit. like i said, i don't just have Multiple Genders, i am also having No Gender, and it does influence my genderfluidity to such degree that sometimes, i cannot relate to many genderfluid and/or multigender, static or not, experiences of gender. i really, really, REALLY want to talk about it, to find a community of people that is simultaneously multigender AND non gendered, or even fluid about it. we are a very unique and almost unheard of intersection of genderhood, and i think it's time for us to be SEEN

All asks are good asks!

I definitely understand experiencing oppression vicariously- that's how I felt when I first started learning about transandrophobia, because I was semi-out as genderqueer but not as masculine, but I still read other people's experiences and went "yep, that's what I would face if I came out." And then it helped me realize the transandrophobia that I'd internalized that was stopping me from accepting myself as transmasc, yknow? So I'm glad the conversation around transmultiphobia has helped you in that way :)

And thank you for your contribution to the conversation on transmultiphobia! For having multiple genders but also no genders, you might want to look into ambonec communities (however small, I'm not 100% sure how common the label is). I've also definitely seen some people post about being multigender with agender as one of those genders (genderkoolaid is the only one I can remember off the top of my head), so you can look for other people like that who you can relate to.

If any of my followers have a similar experience of being multigender as well as genderless, feel free to add on!

[cackled0g]

{Image ID: A reply by user ikishima. The text reads: "maybe its (sic) because you can literally search (transandrophobia) and see people lay out exactly why its (sic) transmisogynistic and no one needs to spoon feed you this information. but have fun using a term coined by someone with a fetish for raping lesbians I guess"}

For context, the post this user was replying to is this one

Well first off, I think it's a rude assumption to make that I haven't researched a term that I use near daily to explain traumas that I have personally faced. I have actually, believe it or not, researched transandrophobia. I've looked at both sides of the issue, and it has consistently been the side that is against a good faith term for a marginalized group's oppression that has been lacking in good arguements. Let's go over a few of the most common ones I've seen.

a.) The coiner, Saint, has been accused of having a corrective rape fetish. I have seen screenshots to verify that he has engaged with that, but from my understanding it was a password protected nsfw blog where he engaged with it and similar fetishes with his partner, who was a trans feminine person who had said fetishes. I don't know either of the people involved and haven't found any good sources leaning either way on that situation except for one callout document that has been accused of being bad faith and factually false. Like I've said, I don't know anyone involved in that whole situation so I can't say I have an opinion on it one way or the other until I have better evidence to go off of. Regardless of whether Saint is or is not a horrible shitty person though, I don't think he has full claim to the word "transandrophobia" and certainly not the concept behind it--the specific combination of transphobia and antimasculinism that primarily transmasculine folks face. The word is just the combination of the the words 'transphobia', the hatred of trans people, and 'androphobia', the fear or hatred of men, and I know that I at least stumbled across it before I ever knew who Saint was. It's simply the most popular term, aside from transmisandry, which I also use regularly. For trigger tagging purposes and general tagging purposes, it's the most widely used term and also has the most theory and good faith debate behind it from what I've seen

b.) The term 'transandrophobia' is inherently transmisogynistic because it copies the same formula used for the word 'transmisogyny', a word describing the intersection of transphobia and misogyny that primarily transfeminine people face. I don't find this a very compelling argument personally. First off, I'm not aware of if the term was in fact based off of the word transmisogyny, as the convention of "oppression"+" oppression "= "word for combined or intersectional oppression" isn't new or particularly controversial (see: misogynoir) when applied to other forms of oppression.

c.) The idea that transmasculine people are punished for their masculinity and not only their transness is inherently transmisogynistic because ???. I genuinely don't get this one honestly. Even if it were true that marginalized men weren't punished for their masculinity, which it isn't (see: black men bearing the brunt of police violence, the way that ast Asian men are hypersexualized by euro-american women, the way that all Asian men are desexualized by euro-american people) I don't see how that "false" belief being held is an intersection of transphobia and misogyny.

d.) Trans men don't need a word for their oppression because they don't face a unique oppression. This is demonstrably false. Many recent laws restricting HRT in the UK and United States have been actively targeting trans men. JK Rowling, the TERF surpreme, wrote an essay that extensively talked about trans men, books like 'Irreversible Damage' are explicitly about trans men 'ruining their bodies'. If that isn't blatantly transandrophobic then what is?

Of course, if anyone has any sources or additions feel free to drop them below or DM me. Engaging in good faith is highly encouraged, including from the person I'm responding to. I also may add on to this post later with more common anti-transandrophobia arguments as I think of them.

[lycandrophile]

I hate this. Murder trans men for using a word describing bigotry against them.

TW: VIOLENT TRANSANDROPHOBIA

uhhhh what the fuck??? that’s...unbelievably disgusting why would anyone think that’s even remotely okay to say

were those tagged on one of my posts?? either way, if you could send me the username of whoever said that that’d be great

i’m honestly in awe...like what kind of fucked up thought process does it take to get to the point where you’re like “yeah, suggesting we should murder these trans people for talking about the violence they face is very normal behavior and doesn’t at all prove the point that they do in fact experience violence”

like genuinely how twisted do you have to be to think saying something like this makes you better than the people you Openly Want To Kill

tbh the part that gets me the most is the whole “can’t be saved” “as a sort of mercy kill” thing because it shows they genuinely do think this makes them morally superior, like they’re the wonderful heroes saving us from ourselves and not just another asshole advocating for violence against a group of trans people

and you know they probably act like they’re super anti-t/er/f even though the whole “transmasc people need to be saved from themselves, and it’s okay to use violence to do so” thing is BLATANT t/er/f rhetoric too

(and just as a side note, notice how i managed to express extreme disgust at this person Without saying we should kill them, proving it would’ve been very possible for them to express their dislike of the word without saying we should be killed)

[jeaninelatragedia]

the post was, in fact, not made in reply to the anonymous asks, but on january fifteenth, and the reply made the day before the asks were sent. crazy, how this conversation has in fact been going on for far longer than this! and yet is still relevant in conversation with a more recent event.

that post was made about other posts, repeatedly made by "transandrophobia truthers" (self described, for the record) when the subject of transmisogyny's existence is even brought up, not as "monopolization of oppression", a non-existant term for a thing, but as a solid theory of intersectional oppression, with a clear and solid definition. those were, of course, made with the exact point of minimizing the concerns of trans women about lived experiences within and beyond the community, under a thinly-veiled "unity" lie, as to avoid having to reconcile with those critiques put forward. even if the phrase was "those transfems need to stop their infighting and just hang out together", devoid of the sexual dimension of it, it is still an attempt to circumvent actual points of discussion to appeal to "peaceful" [read: compliant] rhetoric!

but it isn't just that, not really. the sexual aspect beyond it has a clear, political perspective, too. the issues talking about and resolving, because they make those not directly in the crossfire of transmisogyny sad and uncomfortable! to chalk up the sexualization to being "goofy" and "tumblr-y" completely ignores the fact that it is phrased that way for a reason! the same standards and internally held beliefs why others will go out and send those types of asks! there's a direct correlation that can't be waved off, in why someone would see it fit to send such asks, and why someone would see fit to write such posts!

now personally, i'm not sure i'd say a "perfect response" to OPs point involves ignoring context that was actually there about how to address her feelings with phrases like "casual disdain for trans siblings", which was never a focus on the post, not even implicitly since it was written in reply to an action and a statement, not a person or a group of people, or "quit baring fang and be normal," or actively claiming op as a bad-faith actor by saying "i struggle to believe you even believe that".

love the comparison to the "LGB movement" and an unspecified group (which you're just short of calling "baeddels", really) of transfems talking about their issues, really shows how you seem to think we hold power over transmascs like how cis people do us.

the "martyrization of transfems" is something you can really only talk about if you're completely disconnected from any sort of grander point about this behavior. the problems you posit as "monoply of oppression" are not, in fact, impulsed by a quality of transfems to be "the most oppressed group" but rather simple racism and american chauvinism, political problems that have absolutely nothing to do with this point.

and... it's not, though. i've refrained using the terms "tme/tma" because of your clear bias against the terms, it's clear to me you completely miss their point and use, especially in how supposedly their "main use" is to "misgender trans men", ignoring the fact that cis men are also tme, as not the direct target of transmisogynist ideas. claiming otherwise is complete nonsense, since transmisogyny is a thing with a definition and meaning. it's like saying women aren't real because everyone suffers from misogyny.

anyway, i figure you won't reply to this, given you've said your peace clearly, but i hope i shed some light on the subject.

Why do you feel the need to defend those who are sexually harassing trans women? Why do you think essentially telling other trans women they're being hysterical will help anyone? Why do you feel the need to defend the sanctity of sexually harassing trans women?

hiya!! so. quick thing.

op of that post was right but also a doofus

on the one hand, i have now been made aware of that flurry of asks it was apparently made in response to. those asks are textbook sexual harassment, sole to scalp, and also yes 100% misogyny.

on the other, why the FUCK did that op say "the posts about how transfems and transmascs should just be sucking and fucking" instead of. YKNOW. WHAT WAS HAPPENING?

"post" instead of "ask" makes it seem like something people are just saying on their own blogs, not spamming in ask boxes, and "about how transfems and transmascs should just be sucking and fucking" gets to absolutely 0% of the issue with the asks themselves, and in fact touches on a Separate trend i saw a couple times ages ago, which yes, i still think is just a goofy way of phrasing "be normal and hang out and stop fighting"

And this is an apology, yes, but its not a retraction, so dont take it as one.

i responded absolutely Perfectly to ops words. i was lacking context, but it was context their phrasing Obfuscated the existence of, and as such i feel i acted 100% justifiably. on top of this, one or five assholes spamming shitty asks does not a difference in class interests make. tma/tme is still a useless dichotomy invented by an outsider to drive a wedge in the trans community, our internal equivalent of "lgb drop the t". there is still a trend of transfems (of which i am one, and also i am not innocent of this behavior) insisting on a monopoly of oppression, or being reductive in order to martyrize transfems as a group (ive seen plenty of my sisters say they dont care about the genocide in gaza because "im busy trying to figure out where it's safe to piss" and also many who cross their eyes in order apply the murder rates against trans women of color to instead apply to all trans women, which i feel is pretty flatly racist, or at least reductive) and while im sure SOME people who believe in the value of that dichotomy are normal about it, in fact one was in my dms to Give me the context about the asks which i appreciate deeply i love u bestie, youd have to be a concussed coyote on quaaludes to pretend its not primarily used for transphobia against trans men. its used as a way to misgender and it has no basis in reality.

yall still wanna call me a sex pest pickme who should kill myself after this, be my guest. thats my stance, babe. i wont be responding to anythin else on this matter.

[antiterf]

Thank you for talking about the transandrophobia thing so openly. Honestly I feel pretty scared to talk abt it on tumblr bc when I bring up that a post or behavior is transphobic specifically to trans men, im mocked for “playing the victim” or at worst, silencing trans women. And its like…so you’re devaluing my experiences and saying I can’t comment on my own thoughts…just like TERFs and society at large do…cool. I watch myself vigilantly to make sure i DON’T talk over trans women, and I’ve only really spoken up about “transandrophobia” once, but it felt bad all the same.

I honestly didn't see it as anything to be anxious about when talking. I know that it's a topic that multiple different sides have a lot of feelings towards, and I'm on Tumblr, but I don't feel any hesitation to talk about it. I'm saying this because you're thanking me for something I don't feel risk in, even obviously you've had a rough time with it, and I don't know why I'm this way.

Maybe it's because the people who are against it generally don't like the fact that this used to be an anti terf satire blog since I'm a tme trans man. One of the same people who told me I didn't have the right to run the blog was the same person I saw again that was against transandrophobia. It's just one person that I noticed, but I wouldn't be surprised if it just fell within that pattern.

It could also be because I'm an LGBTQ minor in college currently and have now been talking about these types of issues with other trans people in a discussion way and not an attacking way. It's genuine conversation to try and figure out what's more "right" or "wrong" or just neutral, too personal, not defined enough to say. So here I'm acting the same way, I'm open to learning more and questioning what I have. If I get extra hate I'm used to it by now, and even though it hurts much more when it comes from the community, I aim to understand what their point is above all else and see where it fills in holes and where it doesn't.

An example of this was an anon I got when I made a general statement that I almost immediately realized I was wrong about. I was upset that I made them upset but still took what they said.

I went on a long rant that I didn't need to go on but overall it's no problem, I literally couldn't even fully percieve the problem.

(Also please no matter what can we not compare any trans people to terfs)

[les-belles-infideles]

What happened with Kora @princesshamlet: A start at contextualizing the events of the past week

While I am writing this because Kora expressed that they would like it if someone would post something contextualizing what happened, I do not speak for them; my opinions and perspective are my own. I think the general response has been wildly disproportionate to their actual words and actions. Let me know if you have questions about anything or if my writing style is hard to read and I’ll do my best to clarify.

Tl;dr: Last fall, Kora, a new Supernatural fan, started rewriting Supernatural to be more racially diverse and to more overtly address social issues such as homophobia and misogyny. They continually asked for feedback, particularly from POC, and received overwhelmingly positive responses.

Earlier this week, Kora posted something that unintentionally played into ideas that harm trans men. They were horrified to have hurt people, immediately apologized and made an effort to learn more about the issues involved.

Yesterday, some of Kora’s friends cut them off, presumably over the abovementioned. Some people read Kora’s Supernatural rewrite and were offended by portrayals of various ethnicities; Kora tried to learn from these criticisms and apologize for them. People organized to spread bad-faith, extremely hostile claims and Kora left Tumblr.

Background:

- last fall, Kora started watching Supernatural, and posting about it, including making some popular reaction videos and an elaborate summary of the events of season 16 as of mid-November. They got really attached to Cas as a character and DeanCas as a ship.

- Kora made a post along the lines of “what if I drew Castiel as Indian?” and got encouraging responses, so they made a drawing. A lot of Desi people left comments saying that they really liked the drawing and that the representation was meaningful to them, so Kora started posting and reblogging a lot more about recasting Supernatural to be racially diverse.

- Kora accumulates a lot of ideas around how they wish Supernatural had been, and starts casually writing it up into a story. It didn’t even have a title for the first few chapters, but it quickly amassed a small, enthusiastic following.

- I started reading it at first mostly as a way of getting to know Kora, who was at the time a new friend irl (they didn’t mean to give me their Tumblr; I had followed them for Hamlet and Star Trek posts and then recognized them when they posted a selfie) but wound up getting pretty invested. I started watching Supernatural despite the fact that I can pretty much never commit to finishing a TV show.

- Kora’s general strategy was to post ideas on Tumblr and get input before including them in the fic, particularly regarding race and ethnicity. Plenty of people gave them feedback -- I remember one really long conversation where people swapped headcanons about what music a Mexican-American Dean Winchester would have liked growing up.

- iirc, they actively collaborated with multiple Latine fans of the fic on one chapter that foregrounded Mexican-American culture. These fans are credited in an author’s note.

- they received substantial encouragement from Supernatural fans of color for how they were writing the fic, and afaik no negative feedback.

- they also used the fic as a way to discuss and joke about their personal experiences with misogyny, repression, and homophobia, including writing Dean Winchester as undergoing a character arc involving working through and overcoming severe homophobia. When we called recently, they described going from homophobic to not homophobic as “the best character arc a man can have.”

- afaik they had beta readers or at least people to run ideas by for most chapters.

First incident:

- earlier this week, Kora posted a somewhat poorly-worded vent post about Dean Winchester’s misogyny in Supernatural canon.

- I think I reblogged it because I don’t have super high standards for my SPN blog and yeah, afaict Dean said some pretty gross things in canon? I’d seen a lot of people talk about it, particularly Asian women, it’s clearly a thing.

- several people expressed hurt at the post’s wording, which could be read as bigoted against trans men.

- Kora immediately apologized and started looking for ways to learn more about trans men’s issues (afaict, mostly asking friends and going through the trans dean tag)

- they messaged me about it (Tuesday 4/13/2021), and I took a closer look at the post and explained how in isolation it looked harmless, but some of the rhetoric fit into wider patterns of transandrophobia, i.e. part of the impetus for this post was Kora being surprised that some of their trans male friends project onto Dean, since he’s a pretty bad role model for gender -- I pointed out that one way trans men are marginalized within queer movements is by people perpetuating the idea that we’re more misogynistic than cis men (which makes no sense), and their post could be read as playing into that trope (that reading had occurred to me when I first saw the post, but I had initially dismissed it because Kora and I had been spending a lot of time talking about gender and I never felt that they distrusted me or saw me as a threat).

- they made another hasty apology post, quoting my message to them.

- I encouraged them not to worry too much about what strangers online thought about them, but they were very insistent that they had hurt people and needed to learn and make amends.

- I think what happened next was that the conversation sparked a larger discussion about transandrophobia in the Supernatural fandom? I’m not sure about this though, I was off Tumblr most of Tuesday and Wednesday. I saw a few well-written posts refuting the idea that it was misogynistic to headcanon Dean as trans. I did not see anyone claim it was misogynistic to headcanon Dean as trans, but again, I wasn’t looking.

The Discourse™:

- yesterday, Kora started getting a lot more and a lot meaner messages.

- a large part of their social circle cut them off all at once, saying they felt unsafe and that Kora was transphobic. Kora did not/was unable to receive further clarification, while actively seeking the chance to learn more and repair harm done.

- someone made a dedicated hate tag for them.

- a new group of people read their Supernatural rewrite, and were offended by their portrayals of race and their writing about homophobia, and additionally mocking their writing style. The tone was often extremely mean-spirited.

- Kora responded to and apologized for some of the concerns around their portrayal of race, and refuted some of the bad-faith readings of their depictions of homophobia.

- Kora made an effort to understand what they had done wrong but a lot of the posts weren’t very specific.

- some of the claims got fucking wild. A lot of them involved taking stuff out of context. I think w*ncest got brought up at one point???

- Kora wrote another apology and took a break from Tumblr, on the advice of another friend.

- I spent like a day gearing up to write this because I vastly underestimated the speed at which Tumblr discourse moves.

[fleshphagus]

Sorry I couldn't figure out the readmore

identification removed to protect the innocent and I don't want to clog replies with just a Mildly Related tangent but:

I saw some random mlmtoothpasteflagblogtype get ''dunked on'' today and like yeah, in the Real World ''there's nothing wrong with men liking sports and tools and being dirty and masculine'' is the norm and you complain about people living in this pathetic little online bubble and how they're regurgitating traditional gender roles but you know what. They do live in a bubble. What about it. Lots of (trans especially) people flock to online spaces and have shit tons of friends on tumblr/discord. If one of the only places they can get whatever transvalidation they need is this bubble, OK. And these if things are making them feel better, OK. Anti-masc/androgen sentiment is completely understandable and I agree you cannot have transandrophobia but I think they have a point to a bit annoyed about it. Like maybe they won't grow up, who knows, OP I saw was 22. But the post I saw today by famous funnyblogger said in the tags ''I've never so harshly dragged someone without provocation like this'' and that was so stupid. Yeah sis you really dragged. Wig etc. I'm sure that OP could see your reply and knows who the two tradwife looking blond girls were and got super insulted.

I think if we're going to spend time discussing accepting every plastic/affirming/whatever surgery regardless of contribution to ciswhitecentric beauty ideals the converse can be true without it being the end of the world even if it's a little cringey.

If someone wants surgery to pass better which is a saftey issue and you're going to full ''every surgery is fine'', Fine. - If women raised on instagram and tiktok elect to have nosejobs and tummy tucks and whatever, enforcing unhealthy or racist standards of beauty but its the way of the world or bullying or whatever the cause where it's forgiveable enough it's etc etc it's fine, let's pretend Ariana got that monolid surgery to be more popular and even though asinine and racist - It's fine.

God forbid the cringey transmascs post about ''liking sports is okay!'' on the site where a big sporting event day cannot pass without an infamous ''I hope the goalie scores a home run in sports ball today'' or whatever kind of dime a dozen, oh sports? That thing that makes stupid men yell? Team jerseys are the original funkopops. That shit is just as cringe as ''Tradwife youtuber speech bubble under your MLMurl transman it's ok to like sports'' post.

There's that post that talks about ''some of your favorite things will simply not be possible under anything other than capitalism'' re multiple blockbuster movies (not even just aimed at mcu fans), sports shouldn't exist like it does to day that's absolute truth. I only mildly like sports. It's not that big a deal to admit these things. But do I enjoy seeing 10 thousand people in comradery? Sure. You wanna dunk on me for it? Sure. Unironically it's sad you do not know the epic highs and lows of [high school football] sports.

It's really not about the sports lol. I lost the plot of this post long ago. What is tumblr but ever growing separatist communities through dash curation? ''Don't blame separatists blame the conditions that make them want to separate'' or whatever. The dunking post just caught my eye because the cis girls get in on it too and where is that in the tmatrans>tmetrans>cis section of opression olympics that this site lives and breathes on? "Subverting power structures and hierarchies is working within their confines which is both bad and good, I am very intelligent." (I am saying this, as a joke and seriously.)

I'd love the return of forums. The only problem: All the coders are transfemme, the transmascs could never make their own mlm boards. (Joke haha Jokes because you reached the end)

[bisexualsdeservebetter]

have you ever given a single thought to the fact that the only transmeds are trans men? and almost exclusively white? same with the transandrophobia bullshit. it comes from entitlement and privilege, and a lack of critical thinking.

"All transmeds are white trans men." Source: trust me bro. I don't generally engage with trans discourse, and I don't know every single transmed. I bet my bottom dollar though that you're pulling that out of your ass.

I literally don't care whether you think there should be a specific term for FtM specific issues, but I dont think it's hurting others if trans men talk about it. Trans men bringing up trans men issues is not an attack on other people, especially trans women. It's not trans men trying to be special, it's literally just we would like our problems to be acknowledged. I don't think the majority of people who believe trans men have their own problems think that they're like the most oppressed class or are doing it to hurt other minority groups or some shit. You can care about multiple people and problems at once.

I don't appreciate being called entitled and privileged because I think you need dysphoria to be trans, and I hope you realise that by saying you don't need dysphoria, as in discomfort with your agab, to be trans, you are insinuating you can just choose to be trans because there is no necessary motivator for it beside you fucking want to be.

And for the record people like you are literally why I don't generally post about my opinions on the trans community even though I am fucking trans, in the middle of medical transition, and it's a huge part of my life right now. I don't care what you have to say about me or my opinions on my community, and I'm just gonna assume you would prefer HRT and trans surgeries to not be covered by insurances, which is exactly what demedicalizing gender dysphoria, which is literally the only requirement for being trans, would do. Youre ignorant, I don't think you actually give a shit about trans people, specifically trans men at all, and I think you're kind of an idiot. As I've said to the last several people who decided to whine in my inbox, unfollowing and blocking is very easy. I'm sure you know how to do it.

[nothorses]

I think there's some level of exorsexism as a system in the residence to transandrophobia. Many arguing against it seems to be immediately equating it to or judging it by transmisogyny, as though it must just be the "male" version of transmisogyny and saying that's not a thing. Of course it's not a thing. But you don't (or at least I don't) see these same arguments about enbyphobia, a term looking at the unique forms of transphobia and oppression against nonbinary people. Of course enbyphobia isn't the nonbinary version of transmisogyny, it's its own thing and equating it like that would be inaccurate and potentially offensive. With nonbinary people there's not the same need to immediately equate it to transmisogyny, so why the need with transandrophobia? I think part of it is still unlearning the idea that men and women, masculinity and femininity are clear inverses and opposites that should be judged based off one another. That belief is wrong, and it's a part of exorcism, gender essentialism, enbyphobia, and transphobia in different ways. It's also deeply ingrained in our society and the social construction of gender. It's hard to unlearn, but worth it. Just sharing thoughts with you because you post interesting analysis. It's also just one potential part of things, not everything.

Ohh, that’s a really great point!

And it does really reveal some flaws in how we think about transmisogyny, even; as if it’s just transphobia + misogyny, and nothing more.

Transmisogyny is a system that targets transfemininity as a whole, and it’s founded on certain ideas about gender that aren’t specific or exclusive to just women, or just trans people. It drums up a panic about transfemininity because “men in dresses” are dangerous, and trying to hurt and predate on women; and this is rooted in a misogynistic idea about men. Because the patriarchy also believes that men (particularly men of color) are dangerous, aggressive, and sexually insatiable.

It says transfeminine people are trying to “trick” straight men, because gay men are dangerous predators; combining homophobic and misogynistic ideas that are primarily about gay men. Plus, of course, the transphobia in all of these ideas- that trans people aren’t who we say we are, that being trans is gross and unnatural, etc.

Take that with other forms of transmisogyny: transfems being tokenized, objectified, fetishized, and of course, suffering the more familiar types of misogyny that we see directed at women- and those the patriarchy sees as women.

All of that those things are valid struggles, and all of them need attention. “Transmisogyny” isn’t just saying that trans women and transfems experience misogyny (they do), it’s also saying that there is a deeper system of interconnected gender-based oppression, which is targeting transfemininity in specific ways. Erasing any aspect of that erases large swaths of those experiences.

There’s resistance to the idea that “transandrophobia” is describing a similarly unique system of oppression, founded on other, interconnected forms of gender-based oppression. Like transmisogyny, there are aspects of misogyny, transphobia, and homophobia there- all in ways that are unique in how they target transmasculine people. 

And it reveals a resistance to the exact same ideas in “transmisogyny”. Because- like you said- people don’t like this idea that there is deviation from a neat gender binary in how these things work.

Trans women and trans men are, under the patriarchy, viewed and treated as entirely separate genders from cis women and cis men. We aren’t perfect opposites (men and women never are!), and our experiences of oppression will always be closer to each other’s than they are to cis men and cis women’s.

That’s what “transandrophobia” actually says. But people argue with the arguments they fabricate instead, because it’s easier & more comfortable than widening their entire understanding of gender-based oppression- for the benefit of all trans people.