#this erased my byler doubt

[clericsandpaladins]

I find Season Four to be quite interesting in that the Duffers have confirmed that originally it was meant to be the last season, but they had to split it for the sake of pacing. Season Four is less of it's own season and more of the set-up for Season Five and that tells us a lot about the plots in Season Four.

I've seen a lot of people argue about the purpose of the California and Russia plotlines considering that they are so disconnected from what we could call the main plot, which is Vecna. But the Duffers are NOT bad writers. They had an extra six months to work on and revisit their scripts. Everything in Season Four was very intentional, which is why I choose to give the California and Russia plotlines the benefit of the doubt. Do they seem pretty pointless? Yeah, right now they do. But when you think about it, we are only seeing half of the story here. Season Four and Five were meant to be ONE season.  Hopper's prison break is only half of the story, we don't yet know the true purpose for reviving him and spending so much time getting him out. We needed to get Hopper away so that El could spend this season continuing her ongoing arc of self-discovery and independence. What we don't know is why we need Hopper back and that's the question I think will be answered in Season Five. You don't kill and revive characters for no reason because it takes away the stakes in your story. By doing that, you're making your audience less invested in the safety of these characters because they KNOW there are no consequences. So then why did the Duffers spend a quarter of Season Four getting Hopper back, despite it's irrelevance to the plot until the very end where they help to defeat Vecna? That's the question that Season Five will answer. The California group go on a big road trip trying to find El. Seemingly the only purpose for this is to be able to find El so she can get to the pizza freezer and help Max, making the rest of the stuff they do pretty irrelevant. Right? Wrong. Because, once again, this is set-up. We are only seeing half of the story the Duffers wanted to tell. So then what is actually happening in this plotline? Certainly nothing much with Jonathan. But what we do spend most of this plotline doing is showing the development of Mike and Will's relationship. They start off awkward, they argue, they have heart-to-hearts. The majority of this plotline is dedicated to showing us how Will and Mike interact and behave around each other. You know how it all ends? With a chekhov's gun in the form of Will's painting and his veiled love confession. If the Duffers are indeed good writers, then they have to address this is Season Five, once again showing us we are only seeing half of the story.  Because of the chekhov's gun, we know that Will's feelings for Mike have to be addressed in Season Five. If they aren't, then what was the point of the painting in the first place? We didn't need it for Mike to confess his love to El. El dying should've been enough for Mike, but it wasn't. Will reminding Mike of what happened in the van is what lead to his love confession. The painting has a purpose, it just hasn't been addressed yet. Similarly, if this emotional arc with Mike and Will ends with no change in their relationship, then what was the point? There was no need for Will to be in love with Mike to show his queerness. They could've introduced a new love interest for Will like they did with Dustin and Robin. But they didn't. Will's inevitable confession to Mike needs to result in a change for the California plotline to have a purpose, otherwise the narrative wasted all that time building up to nothing. Not to mention the fact that Will is the key to tying up Mike's arc. Mike feels like he isn't needed by El and this is a major insecurity for him. He spends most of Season Four worrying about this and so in order for his ending to be satisfying, we need to resolve this insecurity and prove him wrong. Yet, Season Four ended with El realizing she had value as a person outside of her super powers and that she doesn't need another person to feel whole. She is her own superhero. But you know who does need Mike? Will. In conclusion, these plotlines aren't useless. They are set-up. EDIT: I wrote this at 2am lol. Wish I would've waited and edited the post a bit but alas 2am thoughts are never edited.

[miwiheroes]

Dropping Byler Evidence Every Day Until Season 5

. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁ Day 10: End of Season 3 pt 1/3 . ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁

Yep, there are going to be three parts to this because there simply is just so much to talk about regarding the ending of S3, and I think it's one of the most pivotal scenes for byler and mileven. I'm going to start off by talking about the contrast between Mike and Will's goodbye scene versus Mike and El's.

Prior to this scene, we see through the whole season that Mike and Will drift apart due to Mike being in a relationship with El and prioritising that over anything else. The story really is about Will being sad that he's drifting apart from Mike, DND being the medium that it's being told through. Basically, DND is the symbol for their relationship and we see that, immediately, Mike is worried that Will is going to throw away their friendship/connection when he goes to California.

This whole scene is literally just a double meaning. It uses DND and childhood memories like that as a stand-in for how they feel about each other.

Will then saying this^^ basically is him asking if him and Mike will still be friends when he comes back to Hawkins and whether things will still be the same between them.

With this, Mike could just be asking if Will is going to make another friend group that he prefers to the original Party. But I don't think he alone is worried for Dustin and Lucas as well, they could have easily had a group scene, but this whole DND arc has really focused on Mike and Will, showing that their relationship is special, and that DND is more of a stand-in symbol of their relationship too.

He sounds worried and anxious, and this makes sense to close their arc in season 3, since it leads into the next season where they have problems about Mike being worried that he's 'losing Will'.

This scene is basically:

Mike: "What if you want to be friends with someone else? Not just friends, but have our specific friendship?"

Will: "LITERALLY NEVER. WILL NEVER HAPPEN."

This scene really erases any doubt that they're just gonna have Will get a new love interest, especially at the very end of season 5. This scene is just another scene to perpetuate the idea that Will is committed to Mike, and the fact that the creators knew in this moment that Will was in love with Mike, just proves that even more. Along with the quote 'Yeah [I] need you, Mike. And [I] always will' in S4.

Afterwards as well, the smiles they give to each other are literally the flirtiest thing ever I can't even watch it without getting some vibes I don't know how anyone could ever think that they are just straight dudes having a moment yea sure

Now onto my next point about this scene. The end of S3 has all these little scenes because they are transitions scenes from S3 to S4, kind of like at the end of S1 and S2 to show you which stage the characters are at in their relationships with other characters and what needs to be addressed in the next season.

There are moments where they try and show you that there needs to be a next season. The writers have these little moments with a couple where you think there's going to be a turning point, but it ends up being the opposite. Instead, one of the characters chooses the 'safe path' where they were at the beginning of the season, BUT things have changed in their character, meaning if feels a bit wrong/off.

This exact thing happens with Jancy in season 1 and it happens with Byler in season 3.

Exhibit A: Nancy and Jonathan have a moment that implies something between them, satisfyingly rounding out their arc for the season, but still leaving the audience wonder what's about to happen next.

Nancy then chooses 'the safe path' with Steve, which is where she started out in season 1, but her character has changed enough that we see a moment of uncertainty in her:

Exhibit B: Mike and Will have a moment that implies something between them, satisfyingly rounding out their arcs for that season surrounding each other and their friendship, but it still leaves the audience wondering if they'll be okay next season.

Mike then chooses 'the safe path' by getting back together with El. Mind you, when Mike and Will had the first conversation, he thought he was broken up with her. But now she's saying they're back together, which is where they started out in season 3, but Mike's character has changed enough that we see a moment of uncertainty just like with the Stancy scene.

After this, in both their respective next seasons, we have Jancy and Byler talking about the missed opportunities from these two scenes:

Jancy's is: "I waited" "Only like... a month."

Byler's is them talking about how they barely called each other and everything, so they're clearly similar and a very obvious parallel. I mean we even have the Stancy and Mileven arcs where one of them can't say I love you to the other!!

(also while making this my tumblr started to freak the fuck out what is HAPPENING CHAT)

[tvlikesgirls]

Just spent the last 2 days binging byler analysis videos including the lawyer video, and a couple 2 hour videos, and have completely erased any and all byler doubt i have ever had.

i kid you not ive spent over 10 hours watching byler proof it is ingrained into my brain.

[thegaybyler]

everything we have with the recent interviews entirely erased any byler doubt I had in my mind.

[kakerutori]

I was originally going to keep my comments in the tags but it just got way too lengthy, but basically - THIS. This, this, this, THIS!!!

It’s easy to focus on the proofs and uncertainties behind Mike in the airport scene or harp on the undeniable s4 ending shots with Byler side-by-side, but look at this. Mike, who has been estranged from Will for six months. Mike, who we don’t know if he’s ever opened that binder of Will’s art ever since season 1. Mike, who is so selfless in a way that puts himself down. Mike, who we know appreciates Will and wants him in his life. Mike finds not estrangement but connection. He finds not a long-held set of 8.5 x 11-ish inch drawings but a full canvas. He finds not heartbreak but affirmation. He finds Will’s very heart. He sees what Will has made just for him, and how does he react?

Look at the gif again. Now look at it again. Just. Ughhhhh (my sound of endeared death).

It’s a slow smile. He’s almost too surprised to smile, at first, because wouldn’t you be, too, if your best friend suddenly showed you this giant, beautiful thing to unfold? His eyebrows raise, he’s shocked. Happily so, as we then see him smile. But even before that smile! He looks right and left, side to side, taking in the full scope of it. Again, compared to the small drawing/sketching paper that Will’s made art on before, this is massive. His mouth already forms a small smile as he scans the painting, and then that grin breaks out.

And this, my friends, is why Byler is not one-sided. Mike is admiring and appreciating and loving Will’s hard work and dedication. And this is where I believe that Mike has already seen Will’s love and decided: oh, yeah, I love this. Now, it’s just a matter of saying I love him, too. And by no means do I wish for this to be forced, but truly, Mike has never ever expressed such a tender reaction like this, has he? We’ve seen him smile before, obviously, but this moment is so pointedly different, because let’s talk about his reaction to Will’s speech hereafter.

Mike is empowered by if not falling in love with what Will is saying and giving to him by this painting, and I don’t think that that’s much speculation. Just look at him. He’s mesmerized, drawn in, attentive, and if those aren’t supposed to be positive emotions, then I’ll be damned. We know that Mike likes what Will offers him, and all that’s left to do is erase the lie that it’s all because of El. That isn’t to say that the reversal of the lie will be easy, but I think that at its core, it’s very simple. Will loves Mike and Mike loves him right back.

Think about the last time Mike has been this moved by something he’s been given, and you can go ahead and stop right now because there is absolutely nothing else that we’ve seen that made him react like this. Not with this wide of a smile nor long of a wanting stare. Unless we did or do get this elsewhere, unless we get more moments of Mike being this easily smitten by Lucas or Dustin or Max or something, then I’ll back off. Because hey, season 5 is still coming. What if Mike just gives all his best friends lovestruck eyes and breathless smiles and aweful glances?

But, uh, I highly doubt it. Just saying.

thinking about how mike canonically practically obsesses over will’s art since they were kids, being his biggest fan and supporter. and then will moves to lenora and mike hadn’t gotten to see a new Will Byers Art Piece™ in such a Long Time. so when will shows him the painting, mike’s instant reaction is being transfixed and mesmerized while trying to take it all in and then just getting the biggest smile on his face. he loves will’s art (and will. he adores will). he’s always loved it and he always will.

[strangertheories]

It is my biggest pet peeve when (mostly) straight people try to make queer people feel guilty for shipping two same gender characters together or say it's problematic to ship them, so I've made a little list debunking their ideas. I'll be talking a lot about Byler but this also applies to Elmax, Ronance, Steddie and queer ships in general.

"Why can't people be friends anymore?" Why can't a guy and a girl be friends either? Why aren't you saying this about Chrissy and Eddie shippers? Unless the issue is that they're gay.

"You're assuming Will is gay based on stereotypes!" Of course, the horrible stereotype that gay guys like men but not women, how problematic of me.

"You're fetishizing children!" No one says this about M*leven shippers. The fact that you view a queer relationship as inherently sexual and adult is sexualising young people much more than shipping Will and Mike does.

"Men will be scared to be affectionate to their friends in real life in case people think that they're gay!" First of all, I doubt some straight guy is going to stop hanging out with his friend because some random person on the internet drew Steddie fanart. And second of all, why are we treating straight men's fear of being perceived as gay as a perfectly valid and normal fear? (I elaborate a bit on this point in the reblogs)

"Why is it okay to say Mike Wheeler is gay but not say Robin is straight? You're erasing his sexuality!" First of all, when did Mike say he's straight? Sure he said he loves Eleven (which I doubt he does anyways) but bi people exist. Plus, there are so many straight characters and ships out there. Straight people don't look up lists of shows with canonical queer representation or watch a show because it has a straight girl in it. Lesbians like myself look up to characters like Robin and they are meaningful to them. No straight person feels seen in their heterosexuality because of Mike Wheeler. The only exception in my opinion is when people headcanon straight characters who are dating trans people as bi like Tao from Heartstopper because that comes off as transphobic.

"They're too young to know that they're gay and you're forcing a sexuality on them." I've known I'm gay since I was eleven or twelve which is the age they are in S1. And yet again, why aren't you saying this about straight people! Everyone accepted that Dustin and Lucas liked Max in S2. Yet Will is too young to know who he likes... Interesting.

"Grown adults wanting two young boys to kiss each other is pretty weird." The issue with this is again the hypocrisy. Adult M*leven shippers don't get told this. Mike kissed Eleven in S1 and it was completely cute and non-sexual because they are children so of course it isn't sexual. Hell they even made out when they were 13 and no one complained. Why would that be any different if he kissed Mike instead of Will? Yet again, people view queer people as being inherently sexual but queer people get cute little crushes or want to kiss people sometimes too. It's not a sexual thing. It's the exact same as a straight person doing it.

Anyways that's my rant done. It just annoys me when half of their arguements saying why it's wrong to ship these characters are just masked homophobia, even if the person saying it doesn't realize. Feel free to add more to this in the reblogs, this is just what I've seen.

[demadogs]

Hi! So I left byler tumblr after the fiasco that was volume 2 and I just kinda came back, and I see that you and everyone seem to be back on thinking byler is 100% endgame? Can you explain me what happened, and why are people still hopeful after mike's monologue?

sure! i literally just scrolled all the way down to my posts in early july to see what we were all thinking and wow it was a rollercoaster. good call just dipping out and coming back when we were back on our bullshit lmao.

so after volume two came out i think all of our initial reaction was sadness or anger but it was also a lot of confusion. i was so beyond confused at first especially when i got to the last scene and they framed all the couples and byler like that. after looking at my first posts after volume 2 i was pretty doubtful it would happen but i kept on thinking about the closet framed kiss. that was the number one thing that kept me wondering bc WHY would they do that if hes not in the closet.

about a week later was the first time i saw something that really made me think differently and it was actually from a mlvn shippers perspective. idk if this was anybody elses true “wait a damn minute” moment but for me it totally was. it was an anon sent to a byler blog from a nonbyler shipper who was rooting for mlvn (one of the respectful, normal ones) and they were basically saying they dont understand why all the bylers are so sad thinking they got queerbaited when to them, again someone who was rooting for mlvn not byler, the fact that the monologue seemed like a copy/paste of wills speech in the van only made then lose hope in mlvn bc it didnt seem sincere. that was so wild to me.

what brought us back to confidence in byler was mostly just us stepping away from the initial shock and disappointment of the monologue and remembering all the things that originally made us confident in byler endgame. i posted this towards the end of july where i just list almost everything that i held onto, not really as sources of evidence, but just genuine questions of what the hell the purpose of all of them were if not for byler endgame. most queerbaiting is just little things they could get away with but with byler the show would have genuine plotholes if they didnt go through with it. none of mike wheelers actions post s2 make sense if hes not in the closet.

i think overall it was pretty slow to get us all back to the point of 100% certainty of byler endgame tho. now i never see anyone saying they have doubts but all summer that was basically everyones posts going back and forth and i dont blame them. i used to hate the monologue and genuienly think it was a mistake but now i think with the potential of mike getting vecna’d and called out for him lying to el, especially with “friends dont lie” being such a huge part of the show, it could pay off so well. and that one anon was right, he was basically restating what will said in the van not knowing that that was wills feelings not els. now i realize its a perfect use of the miscommunication trope.

also just the fact that the tag on here grew tremendously. i think we had around 8k before volume 2 and now we have 300k. hundreds of thousands of people didnt care enough about byler to follow it on here but after volume 2 they realized something was up? thats very telling. i think a lot of people who believed in byler before volume 2 lost hope when they saw the monologue but for people who werent byler shippers, thats the scene that made them believe it was actually happening, which is pretty interesting.

but yeah i wouldnt say there was one specific thing like an interview or script that made us all confident again, it was just slowly remembering everything from previous seasons and the reassurance that one scene does not erase all of mikes questionable actions or all of their suspicious filming choices from earlier seasons.

[gayofthefae]

i saw ur reblog to my post and i just want to say yes, yes, yes a million times yes. i know a lot of ppl dont trust the duffers because theyre two Straight White Males, but i have so much faith because of the fact that they studied film! like these people spent years dedicating themselves to not only analyzing other peoples media and their subtext, but also studying HOW to do it. And if I know anything about film bros, its that they want their work to be treated as seriously as they treated films in school.

If theyre putting so many obvious (and not so obvious) references (in the closet at rinkomania is the most obvious one i can think of, but also the color coding and the microexpressions and set design), then they KNOW someones going to find them and piece their story together. its a love of the artform on both parts of the producers and the audience that drives the film community, and in turn, many people who ship byler. most of us are here because we love to analyze things, and we saw byler on the way, not the other way around. god i love this community

This! This exactly! We aren't people perusing every show for anything we can stretch to be proof of queerness. We're analyzers who analyzed the show and this ONE OF the things we found! (who aren't even all queer, analyzers just pick up the shit the creators are putting down).

It makes me so very happy whenever I see people respond to their doubt by diving deeper the way I do. As someone pursuing musical theatre and film, it means so much to me to be on both sides and give my appreciation and also see everyone else doing so. It's exactly that that you're saying with the Duffers! As someone in the field, giving that appreciation is like the golden rule for receiving it or even giving it to myself.

And with the Straight White Guy comments it's so hard to argue because in a general sense - they're not wrong, and it is no one's place to tell someone to put more trust in anyone, especially a large group that has a history, but I feel like this isn't so much straight guys writing about queer people as it is the same as the case with all of storytelling - they decided to tell a story with queer people in it. Which is one of the things I love so much. It's a story that isn't centred around queerness but rather the story of these people who happen to be queer but also doesn't erase the way their queerness impacts that story and accurately represents how that contextualizes this experience and motivates it differently.

Honestly, I think it's just two filmmakers - storytellers - choosing to tell a story that represents the world it's meant to reflect. Queer people don't have to be the only ones to tell stories with queer people in them - in fact, it's important that we aren't. This isn't so much them pandering to queer people for brownie points for including us or forgetting we exist because out of sight out of mind as it is just like the general audience breaking down their heteronormativity to see it, two guys who looked at the world and saw the world and put it onscreen and it includes diversity not so much because they consciously chose to add it but because unlike much other media, they didn't choose to exclude it. It's already there and they let it be, which is lovely and why it is so nice to see and why I made an entire post just dedicated to the beauty of queer people feeling like people in this story who exist inclusive of but outside of being queer too. And even paranormal shows have to reflect the real world. A story is dependent on what happens and who it happens to so the PEOPLE need to be realistic.

[booksandpaperss]

Literally ready to kiss stranger writers Twitter on the mouth for this. Like this actually erased the last bit of my byler doubt, we’ve seen lumax and byler parallel each other on screen but to have it literally written in the script too?? Byler IS happening it’s only a matter of *how*

Byler 🤝 lumax 🤝 being the best endgame ships to ever exist ever

[clericsandpaladins]

Just erased my byler doubt completely with the power of understanding how narratives work. Today is a good day.

[miwiheroes]

Dropping Byler Evidence Every Day Until Season 5

. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁ Day 17: The Ending Shot of S4 . ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁

Doing a little shorter post for you today just bc I'm busy <3

One of the most convincing pieces of evidence that I always come back to when I'm having byler doubt is this fucking ending shot of S4 because LOOK AT IT:

I mean, the fact that they paired them up with other canon couples, Jopper and Jancy, and had El stand away from them all despite Mike doing the whole love monologue earlier in the episode? Talking to Milkvans about this scene gets the rattled too, like, they really know how convincing this is deep down, resorting to calling it just a coincidence.

Stuff like this is not a coincidence!!!!!!!!!

Directors thought this shot through, they thought about their reasoning for it, and it shows. It is clear foreshadowing for the main teams for the next season, especially when the scene before this is Mike assuring Will that they will kill Henry together. If the directors didn't want to make this seem like couples being paired together, they could have easily made them stand together. Nothing was forcing them into doing this, they chose it.

What I really love about this is the fact that byler is central in the shot as well, which is surprising because shouldn't El really be in the middle?

Looking at this literally erases all my doubt because it's perfect.

[willthecleric]

I read the thing about them removing everything that could be interpreted as Byler (or Mileven dissing) in the scripts, and I really hope it's what you guys said about them wanting to be more cautious because they're noticing some people are really catching onto their subtext.

But my pessimistic side of my head is wondering, do you think there's a chance it was done to erase every piece of byler because it's not gonna be endgame, so they don't want people to think it is? Like maybe the Duffers were gonna make it happen but they were told to forget about Byler if they wanted the show to stay on Netflix? So they removed the possible 'evidence' for it in the script? Like I know I'm overthinking but you know what I mean. I hope I'm wrong, I'm just wondering.

I get your fears, but I definitely do not think that this is the case at all. Honestly, I don't think the Duffers would continue producing their show on Netflix if they had to ditch Byler and go with a ship that they hate and have labelled throughout the series as being toxic.

This story is their baby and something that they have worked really hard on. And Byler is very important to the story and so woven into it. And they love it. You can tell how much they love Byler by how much effort they put into it. How central it is to the series. I just can't see them going along with any plan of the show where they forget all about that just to go along with M**even. I think in that case they would either go to another streaming service (and I mean any of them would jump at doing ST), finish off their story in a movie, or go into comic books.

But I don't think that Netflix is dumb enough to ever drop one of its biggest shows that has made it a lot of money. And at the end of the day, profit is what Netflix cares about.

And I highly doubt that M**even is ANYWHERE NEAR as popular as this fandom believes it is. Most of this fandom is composed of young Americans. ST is a universal series. I think most people just assume it is endgame. But I have not encountered one person in real life who cares in the least bit about M**even. I just can't see millions upon millions of people around the globe hanging onto a vanilla teenage ship. A gay ship is way more groundbreaking and profitable than the kind of ship that we have seen millions of times over that does not offer anything new. It's old, boring, and tired.

Not hating on straight ships as a whole. I'm just saying that so many of them are the same and there is literally nothing new and exciting about M**even. I've always found it really boring tbh. Even before I noticed all the issues. I was so confused when I entered the fandom and saw people shipping it. Adding to this, it’s just plain toxic and the Duffers want us to see that it’s toxic. They are not being subtle. They literally bring out the worst in each other and negatively impact the people around them. El spent 12 years isolated in a lab and Mike is gay and in love with his best friend. It’s a hot mess.

The Duffers love subverting expectations. Also, M**even was never meant to be shipped. And it was compared to ET and Elliot since the pitch.

I hope that this was at least a little bit reassuring. :)

[reganx2]

1. I don’t look for parallels with other pairings. I enjoy Mileven as a ship in its own right and it’s not as if there’s a need for me to prove the existence of a romantic relationship between Mike and El by comparing their scenes to those of other canon couples. I’ve come across parallels identified by other Mileven shippers but, ultimately, the main couples in the show - Jancy, Jopper, Lumax and Mileven - are each very different. Even Lucas and Max, who are the same age as Mike and El, have different circumstances and challenges as a couple, and a different relationship journey.

2. I have read posts about Byler, and have found some of the ones that don’t insist that Mileven was never real interesting. I don’t agree with them, but I can see where the posters are coming from. I find it disrespectful to try to erase a canon ship from history to promote a fanon ship and, in my opinion, it makes canon Byler much less likely if it can’t exist without pretending that Mileven was never real.

3. I would be more worried about Mileven not being endgame if they hadn’t had setbacks as a couple. If, for example, there was no short-lived break-up in Season 3, no fight in Season 4, and Mike had had no problem communicating his love to El, I would be waiting for the other shoe to drop, because no couple is perfect. The fact that they have had struggles and overcome them strengthens their relationship. Story wise, my faith in Mileven endgame is strengthened by the fact that, if the Duffers wanted to break them up permanently, they had ample opportunity to do so in Seasons 3 and 4. They also had the option of not having Mileven in the first place, and going with a platonic soulmates angle, where they are one another’s person, though they are not romantically involved.

4. To me, Byler is a ship that could have been, not a ship that could be (at least in canon, anything goes in fanon). Realistically, there are only eight episodes left, and I don’t expect any of the romantic relationships, with the possible exception of Lumax, to get a lot of focus in Season 5, not with all that they have going on. I think that the latest plausible window of opportunity to end Mileven and start to build towards a Byler endgame was in Season 3, though it would necessitate keeping the Byers in Hawkins. At a push, it could have been done in Season 4, if El had broken up with Mike before she was arrested.

As things stand, however, I don’t see how they could do even a halfway decent job of ending Mileven and establishing Byler in the time they have left.

I can’t see Will saying anything about his feelings for Mike, even if he does come out as gay to his family and friends. No matter how confident some viewers may be that Will’s feelings are reciprocated, from where Will is standing, he has no reason to hope that they are. The original “Byler script” may have been fake, but I would say that ripping off the Band-Aid was an apt description of Will’s feelings in that scene, in the sense that he was giving up on any thoughts he may have had about telling Mike how he feels. Then he had a front row seat to Mike telling El that he loved her, and that his life started the day they met. I can’t see how he would possibly hold out hope of his romantic feelings being reciprocated after that. Short of Will falling victim to the death trope, and his feelings being posthumously revealed in a letter to Mike or something similarly clichéd, I doubt that he’ll ever communicate them to Mike.

Where Mike is concerned, I don’t see that there is any way to plausibly roll back on his monologue. The Duffers can’t have him tell El that he loves her and that his life started the day they met, then reveal that, actually, he never had romantic feelings for her, it was Will all along, and expect the general audience to see it as anything other than an out of nowhere swerve.

As for El, the prevailing idea, as far as I can tell, is that she should be the one to break up with Mike in the name of being independent, but I don’t see that happening.

If the Duffers wanted to go with the angle of El not being ready for romance and needing to be independent first, they had a near-perfect window of opportunity to do so in Season 3, through Hopper if he had been shown to be genuinely concerned about El not being ready and had encouraged her to branch out socially, as opposed to him being irritated by Mike’s frequent presence, wanting El to stay the little girl who played board games with him and shared Triple-Decker Eggo Extravaganzas, and ultimately realising that he couldn’t keep her from growing up.

El is canonically powered by love. A single memory of being loved is the only reason she wasn’t murdered when she was eight years old. Mike’s words of love were able to reach her in a way that others’ favourite songs could reach them, and they helped give her the strength to fight back against Henry/Vecna/One. Crucially, El knows this. Far from pushing away any of her loved ones, I see El drawing them closer in Season 5, and of all of the characters, I would say that her strongest bonds are to Mike, Hopper, Max and Joyce.

At this stage, they have so little time left that even if Byler was endgame, it would be so last minute as to smack of cowardice on the Duffers’ part, having a M/M relationship for the sake of having it, but without actually giving them any real screentime as an established couple. If they were going to do it, then either Mileven should never have been canon in the first place, or they should have stayed broken up after Season 3, with Byler coming together in Season 4, and being an established couple in Season 5.

Alright this is a question (or a set of questions) for the Mileven shippers/community. And these are genuine questions because I’m curious and want answers. Not because I wanna bring Mileven down. So please, be patient, read this through and answer truthfully.

I’m also not gonna tag Byler because some Mileven’s have the tag blocked and wouldn’t see this.

1. Do you also look for parallels? Because there’s a lot of Byler - Jancy, Byler - Lumax and Byler - Jopper parallels. So I wanna know if there are some for Mileven as well, since I never see any on Tumblr and I’m also terrible at looking for them in the show.

2. (Please stay calm during this one, since it may pull a nerve) When you see someone proving Byler with scenes from the show, do you actually look into it and think why they might be right, or do you just jump into calling them delusional? Because it sure feels like it.

3. Do you sometimes think about reasons why Mileven might not be endgame? And why they (maybe) don’t love each other romantically? Because there are some scenes that really make it seem like they are gonna break up in s5.

4. On that note, (this one might be similar to the 2nd one) do you ever look at why Byler might be endgame? Or do you actually just not care, because you���re convinced Mileven is a great relationship and they’ll be endgame?

I think that’s all. A sincere thank you, if you actually read through this and answered. Have a good day! <3

[strangertheories]

that post about 'shaming queer ships' neatly avoids the fact of the matter that the drivers of MLM ships online aren't MLM but women and that even queer women are capable of fetishism and no you can't use the 'canon str8 ships suck' excuse when this bs most often involves erasing canon interracial ships to prop up white men, not even trying to improve m/w ships, and most tellingly ignoring or minimizing WLW in canon and fanon. that's not even talking about the rampant biphobia.

I appreciate that you're upset but I feel as though you're putting words in my mouth. Plenty of MLM and NWLNW people ship Byler. It's not fetishizing queer men to ship Byler and as a queer woman, I'm not going to apologize for liking the relationship. I'm a fan of childhood friends to lovers as a trope which is the main reason why I ship Byler, not because I'm creepy about gay guys. It's not even my favourite ship in the show, it's just one that is very frequently criticized so I was defending it.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who ship m/m ships in a weird fetishizing manner but it's a huge generalisation to say that people pushing Byler are all women with a fetish for gay guys. The reason I didn't talk about this issue is because it's an issue separate from the post I was making which was about hate on queer ships. When I mentioned people being accused of fetishizing gay men for shipping m/m ships, I was talking about people getting told that for no reason. As I said, it's an issue that women have this weird view of gay guys but I never said that it wasn't.

I also didn't say that canon straight ships suck. I'm a big Jopper shipper and I have spoken about several times how much I love Lumax. I have never erased interracial relationships to pop up white men either, considering there is only one interfacial relationship in Stranger Things and I ship it. But even so, it's not erasing interracial relationships to ship Elmax as you can still think two characters would be cute together even if one of them is dating someone of the opposite race.

Again, I never said m/w relationships shouldn't be improved. If there's a bad relationship on the show then they should absolutely write it better. But just because I'd rather Mike be with Will does not mean that I think m/w relationships should never be improved. I just personally don't know how they'd fix Mike and Eleven's relationship. It would be very tricky to do writing wise as they've made it seem like Mike isn't interested in Eleven at all. Who knows maybe they'll pull a miracle and I'll end up shipping them but I really really doubt that. M/w ships should be written well but if it looks like a relationship is ending that's not bad writing, it's the plot.

I also don't know where I minimised WLW? I'm a lesbian myself. My favourite ship in Stranger Things is Ronance and I talk about it a lot on my account. I absolutely love sapphic ships and I've watched pretty much every show under the sun with sapphic characters and relationships in it. Before I joined the ST fandom, I made posts about Buffy, Haunting of Bly Manor, Fear Street and other shows and the posts were mostly about sapphic ships. Some of the examples I gave on hate on queer ships applied to queer men but that's because m/m ships get specific types of complaints like about toxic masculinity that don't apply to WLW. I would never minimize WLW in canon (I mean Robin is my favourite character) and I don't know where you got that from my posts?

And in terms of rampant biphobia, again, I really don't see where I was biphobic? The only time I mentioned bisexuality in that post was saying that just because a guy dates girls doesn't mean he can't date guys which is the opposite of biphobic. Maybe it's about how I said I doubt Mike loves Eleven but that's not because I'm biphobic, it's because of the fact he can't say I love you to her.

Again, if I said something stupid then I'll accept that but I don't really see what I did wrong here? I got a criticism earlier about how I said that we're treating straight men's fear to be seen as gay as valid when a fear to be seen as gay is valid which I made a follow up post about and realized my mistake. But in this case, you're just making up things I said and getting annoyed at them.

And I just think it's a smidge ironic that I made a post about how people try to make it problematic to ship things like Byler only to be told I'm problematic and fetishizing queer men. Thanks for the ask anyways, anon.