#this applies to punkflower too

[hadesoftheabyss]

"We need more gay ships that include people of color!"

The Spiderverse Fandom: does that

"Actually no, don't do that. In fact stop touching people of color and forcing themselves into gay ships!"

[punkeropercyjackson]

I wanna be open-minded about Miles/Hobie x Pavitr so bad but as a black woman,y'all always got me tweaking with the Margo erasure.I fuck with Ghostflower and Ghostpunk almost as much as i do Punkflower but that also applies to Flowerbyte,Punkbyte and especially Ghostbyte because i'm also sapphic.Miles,Gwen,Hobie and Margo are a four way tie for my Spiderverse faves for that exact reason too i.e That Miles and Hobie are black like me,Gwen is a queer girl like me and Margo is a black girl like me so obviously all four of them as a polycule is my ot4 for Spiderverse and the thing is it's the one with evidence too!!Almost all the m/f combos are canon and the gay one is borderline text but NONE of y'all care about Margo and you have no right to that.Spiderverse is for the niggas and Gwen's here because she's trans and there's a lot of intertwiened history between transmisogyny and antiblackness so she's to show solidarity.Miles is a certified black woman lover,Hobie's ONE love interest is Mindy Mcpherson who was also a black woman from his Prowler verse who's his whole ass wife and Gwen in the comics was gay as fuck on top of her accidental trans-coding

Ntm it fixes the unfortunate snowbunny subtext of the Ghostpunkflower love triangle by making it Ghostpunkflowerbyte and thus just a proper polycule that happens to have a white girl in it instead of misogynoir.They.Need.Margo.Miles WANTS Margo in the actual movie,in fact!!This happens every time there's a black woman love interest,y'all always,ALWAYS erase her and act like it's because you care about gay representation as if black women can't be gay!!Flowerbyte and Punkbyte are gay ships to me because i headcanon Margo as a super femme genderfluid transmasc out of projection but i know y'all would NEVER have thought of that despite the so called wish for everyone to be trans and gay!You never even explore Gwen's transfemininity outside of memes or shipping her with boys or make her black when she absolutely should be and i mean BLACK,a lightskin black mom white dad girl with darker features and not that fuckass skin condition copout i'm pretty sure i see more than dark features when it comes to black fandesigns and relatedly anybody who drew that Arms Race Hobie design is NOT seeing the pearly gates!I am so fucking tired man.I don't wanna hate Chaipunkflower,i really don't,but with how it's potrayed how could i not.Y'all are sick

[sugarygxodness]

i know hobie age discourse is annoying and frustrating. i've been watching from the sidelines ever since atsv came out and tiktok is being absolutely insufferable about it. i've also seen the plethora of arguments from both sides about it. but i wanted to put in my two cents about hobie's age because it has been yelling for attention inside my heart and i need an outlet for it desperately.

so here is my official warning. ⚠️ if you don't want anything to do with the hobie age discourse, please ignore this post ⚠️ (i doubt anyone is going to see this post anyway)

first of all, i ship punkflower. i respect chaipunk as well, though i do not ship it. when i was watching atsv, it never occured to me that hobie would be older than the spidergang by any more than 2 years. so it boggles my mind that people left their theatre thinking hobie was any older than 19 years old??

second, as i've mentioned, i have seen the plethora of arguments coming from both sides. i have heard (incessantly) about the director talking about early concept hobie being 19/20 years old. i always always take early concepts with a grain of salt because that is what they are - early concepts. from the conception of the spiderverse trilogy, a lot of stuff can change. we know that even though early concept hobie was 19/20 years old, his age is now "up for interpretation". all of us were not in the writing room when they came up with hobie. none of us can say for sure what hobie's age is. so let's leave it at that - hobie's age is up for interpretation. i have also seen people talking about hobie being bitten at 16 years old in the comics and in the movies he says he has been spiderman for 3 years. quick maths - that makes hobie 19? well, maybe. it is also important to note that movie adaptations of comics very often leave out or change information. they do this all the time. they even did it with miles. in the comics, miles morales gets bitten at the age of 13. but in the movies, miles get bitten when he was a freshman in visions academy, 15 years old. if they changed that fact about miles from the comics to the movie adaptation, who's to say they did not do the exact same thing to hobie or any other character? using comic book canon to apply to movie canon is always iffy. across the mcu, there are many many comic details that get changed or left out for the movies. this is just something i want everyone to keep in mind.

third, this is my main point. i'm going to talk about hobie's age from a storytelling point of view. keep in mind, i am not a writer. i do not have any experience writing or making original characters. i just like overanalysing creative aspects of media that i consume and i also briefly studied literature in school. if there is anything you would like to counter about my upcoming argument or add to it, i would love to see it.

from a storytelling point of view, hobie being old than 18 years old makes absolutely NO sense. if we look at miles' conflict during atsv, his whole thing is that he feels betrayed by the adults in his life because all of them view him as this incapable clueless kid who needs to be protected. his parents, while being unaware of his identitiy as spiderman, are too protective of him and doubt everything that he does. while they eventually start to accept the idea of letting their child grow up, they only start doing so when miles is already stuck in another universe. the adults in the spider society betray miles too. miles, upon meeting more spiderpeople, probably thought that they would understand him more than his own parents could. however, the adults in spider society still look down on him and treat him like a child. this is especially evident in peter b, who constantly emphasises that miles "doesn't know any better". miles is 16 (in atsv) and while that IS technically a child, those rules don't really apply to spiderpeople. after all, though he is technically a child, he watched his uncle aaron die right in front of his eyes, he saved the multiverse, and he saves brooklyn from crime every single day. as unfortunate as it is, miles has had to grow up a lot faster than the average kid. miles views himself as an extremely capable spiderman, but it feels like nobody else agrees with him. that is miles' conflict throughout atsv.

so it makes no sense that miles feels constantly betrayed by the adults in his life, yet one of the members of the spidergang that he is surrounded with in atsv is an adult? the whole point is that he feels he cannot depend on the adults in the spider society, so therefore it makes sense that his closest allies (gwen, pav, hobie) would be teenagers. making hobie an adult completely throws this theme out of balance.

furthermore, i hear people say hobie holds a mentor role in miles' life. i disagree. peter b held a mentor role in itsv. this was when miles was newly bitten, had no idea how to use his new powers, and had just lost the only other spiderman he knew. in atsv, miles has grown very well into his role as spiderman. he developed his own spiderman techniques, learned how to use his venom shock and invisibility in an effective way, and successfully saves brooklyn from crime every day. this miles does not need a mentor. this miles feels betrayed by the people he thought he could trust. this miles needs allies. that is what hobie is to miles in atsv.

to me, the r/s between hobie and miles in atsv is very reminiscent of the r/s between a new transfer student in highschool and an upperclassman. imagine this - miles just moved to a new unfamiliar environment and is a transfer student in a highschool where he knows nobody. hobie spots him, somehow decides to help him out, and gives him the ultimate tour of the school. not the proper "this is the gymnasium, we hold our pep rallies here" tour that the student council body would give miles. nah, his tour is more like "this is the best place to smoke weed without getting caught. this bathroom is almost exclusively for hooking up. this teacher once called me out for plagiarism, so he sucks." then he pats miles on the shoulder and tells him that he's got his back. if anyone tried to give him shit, hobie will not hesitate to make their lives hell. this is how i interpret hobie and miles' r/s in atsv. he is not a mentor!!! miles is capable enough to be spiderman without a mentor!!!

lastly, this isn't exactly my place to talk about it, but i have heard a lot of black people talk about how a lot of people place harmful stereotyping and adultification on hobie. and the infuriating tendency for people to be against poc ships rather than white ships. and that is A LOT of food for thought. that's all :)

i ended up writing a lot more than i thought i would. clearly i care too much. oh well atsv brainrot era go brrr

[watcher0033]

Great take on the Hobbie Age discourse!!!

Honestly it should be like this instead of some moral posturing that strip off the agency and personalities of the characters and casually throwing out heavy-loaded words like a huge stick picked out from the ground and waving it around as if it couldn’t poke somebody’s eye out and be an all around kill joy about it.

Ugh.

Not to mention there’s multiple sources who have said Hobie’s 15 (Phil Lord), 19-20 (some of the animation crew), and his canonical comic age is 16-17. And apparently PunkFlower already has a cult following SINCE their comic era so there’s that too.

On the other hand, I can’t help but laugh at the meta-comedic aspect of it all that of everyone, even his own creators, trying to put a label on a character who has claimed his dislike for said labels and doesn’t believe in consistency.

Da Powarh, Ser.

Cannot be contained, refuses to be contained. 🫡

Meta-humor aside, I completely agree with your essay there. I think the age discourse happened not just because of shipping reasons but also for the fact that he looked ambiguously older but still have more prominent bonds with the teenage-Spiders that the Adults— which should already be telling, c’mon.

But there’s also the fact that harsh experiences ages a person. Grief, stress, and depression affects people physically and not just mentally. Like, just look at Miles-42 with his harsher facial lines and overall “mature” look compared to our Miles. Look at the world he’s living in, the grief that he’s surely carrying about his father’s death.

We describe him as a darker version of Miles but we did not uniformly conclude that he’s older than him, or that he’s a more troubled adult version of himself now, did we?

Apply that same logic to Hobie with his surely troubled background of young teen vigilantism and political activism and the effects it had on him over the years, and that’s the chai honestly.

Thing is Hobie's age could add to the tragedy of his story because every spiderman story where the spiderhero is a teenager and has to risk their life to keep thousands or millions of people safe because of an incompetent safety system and capitalist greed is tragic. Why should a high schooler bear the responsibility of what hundreds of grown adults should be doing, and why does a high schooler need to be the one to clean up their messes and mistakes? And then that high schooler will have grown adults trying to kill them, entire police forces trying to arrest them, news media smearing their name, strangers always trying to take pictures or expose their identity, and always always always the uncertainty of family acceptance at the end of it all.

So with Hobie (bear in mind i don't know much about him) if he's really 16-17 in Across the Spiderverse, that means he's already been through a lot of the same shit that nearly every other spidey had to go through but at a younger age probably (and that Gwen was able to avoid and that Miles is trying to prevent). I didn't get the sense that he'd just come from a massive tragedy when we saw him in the movie. If he's had a police chief close to him die or be killed (by him maybe, idk) that's a lot for a kid to go through. Every other spidey offering advice to Miles was an adult. I'm not saying their Uncle Bens or Police Chief Scenarios weren't as bad, but they don't have the same freshness with it, you know? It's been years, maybe even decades.

Versus if he's on the older side, like 19 to 20, there's been more time to process, i think. More hindsight, more growth, which might give Hobie the best idea out of all of them of what Miles is about to go through because it hasn't been too long, but it's still fresh enough on his mind that he's got a semi-healed rawness that others might not (plus him being anti establishment/the "fuck canon" character would also make him want to help miles).

[punkeropercyjackson]

Todomomo headcanons❤️‍🩹🍔

❤️‍🩹🍔T4T and autistic4autistic!!!!!!This is the ultimate Todomomo truth,hold onto it in your hearts!

❤️‍🩹🍔Biracial4Biracial too!!Shouto is part bangladeshi on Rei's side and Momo is a blasian latina(dominicana-mexican)and they teach eachother about their cultures

❤️‍🩹🍔Goth gf x Pastel gf,of the punk flavors for both!Dabi radicalized Momo as what started out as a plan to get at Shouto but started to actually love her as found siblings and pseudo-dad and daughter so it stuck

❤️‍🩹🍔Aaaaand both catkin!!They found out through taking quizzes in the middle of the night on Shouto's bed and Momo furiously snacking in nerves with him not minding and make almost all their diy and thrifted junk cat themed,watch cat videos a lot and have soooo many cat memes and cat facts saved as a result!

❤️‍🩹🍔Momo is 6'5 and thick as fuck(buff and fat queen),Shouto is 5'9 forever and her bisexual twunk(*Megan Thee Stallion voice*He love tall women)

❤️‍🩹🍔Their usual dates are cat cafes,boba shops,diy sessions,the arcade,playing Animal crossing,PlayPlaces(non-Mcd.onalds,the Bnha verse version by McHeroes!!),library visits,basement shows,cryptid/ghost hunting and skateboarding and rollerblading!!Momo loves her some burgers and Shouto makes sure her drink is always warm/cold enough for her

❤️‍🩹🍔Momo gets insecure about wearing swimsuits so Shouto hypes her up and calls her hot,pretty,cute,etc with no filter and it embarrasses her so she tells him to shup up but can't help but actually feel better even as she covers her face

❤️‍🩹🍔And she returns the favor when he gets top surgery and is unsure over his new scars,raving about how handsome he is and how she has the 'manliest' boyfriend ever and he shyly tells her to quit it but gets sad when she stops so she keeps going

❤️‍🩹🍔Red velvet food is a Todomomo aesthetic -not necessarily their favorite food but look at red velvet based foods and tell me they aren't Todomomo core.Ya can't!!Dual Kawaii is also Todomomo core but that goes without saying

❤️‍🩹🍔Very much a fluff couple-They cover eachother in kisses but rarely on the lips unless it's just the two of them,hold hands and sit on eachother's laps in public with zero sexual undertones,no filter compliments with zero hesitation,piggy back rides and even rubbing/bonking/snuzzling their heads together like cats

❤️‍🩹🍔Speaking of which,Momo is longer and bigger than Shouto by a significant amount so he makes sure to carry her around and make her feel princess-y as often as possible so her dysphoria and ptsd don't haunt her

❤️‍🩹🍔Shouto lets Momo,Rei and his siblings(including the rest of the Tea Blend Crew)and ONLY Momo,Rei and his siblings(including the rest of the Tea Blend Crew)touch his scar.Momo created an oinment for it and he asks her apply it to him sometimes

❤️‍🩹🍔Momo's usual hairstyle is a butterfly locs ponytail and Shouto's hair is naturally straight and down to his mid-back.Shouto's favorite hairstyles on Momo are afropuffs,twists,dreads and a heart fade she had at one point and Momo convinced Shouto to grow out his hair by telling him she likes it better after he accidentally let it grow past his shoulders(babyboy is down bad LMFAO)

❤️‍🩹🍔After they get together,Momo starts dying her hair split down the middle pink to show Shouto how much she loves that they're the same in so many ways but that he also makes her feel like her own person and Shouto starts wearing his hair in high ponytails because he felt like he was broken before she came along and gave him a piece of herself so that he could feel complete instead of only half and half

❤️‍🩹🍔Shouto is a musician(guitarist)and Momo is an artist.Think those Hobie Brown and Miles Morales fanarts,Punkflower is so Todomomo-coded

❤️‍🩹🍔Chocolate covered strawberries are their signature food.They love both individually too,like Momo's ruby chocolate safe food and Shouto having an 'Kisses from when i'm not here' Hershey's Kiss jar at their place,but they had a chocolate fountain at the restaurant they went to on their first date and they fed eachother the strawberries after dipping them in it that night so it brings up special memories♡

❤️‍🩹🍔'Why does Shouto call you babygirl?' 'Gender validation'(Momo is so bbg,Shouto is so real for that /platonic).Momo in turn calls Shouto 'Kit Cat' and 'Gatitito' and he calls her 'Beloved' but in bengali

❤️‍🩹🍔They research their special interests and infodump together and find goods of them for eachother,as well as making extra personalized versions of merch

❤️‍🩹🍔They also watch preschooler/elementary school/middle school shows and movies and do facepaint,eat stuff like cat shaped grilled cheese sandwitches and strawberry milk,draw with chalk during after school hours,do matching kandi,Momo frequently wears overalls and Shouto frequently wears skull shapped goggles,etc.Kidcore love!!

❤️‍🩹🍔Momo is what allowed Dabi and Shouto to repair their relathionship.He mentored Momo so he hangs out with them all the time and is a reliable older figure in their lives way more than Endeavour and the Yaoyorozu parents ever were and also helped them figure out how to get together and date properly thanks to his own slowburn experience with Jin

❤️‍🩹🍔Specifics:He'll chaperone them at punk shows so they know what they're doing,he also provides advice on how to be vigilantes,he has zero fucks to give about 'keeping up his image' so he participates in some of the kiddy stuff they do as bonding and he's trans autistic himself so he helped them on transitioning with diy'd hrt and steals shit for them as gifts too

❤️‍🩹🍔And people/the media in-universe try to add him as a pedo cishet bullshit love triangle thing so the three of them worked together into scaring them into never doing it again

❤️‍🩹🍔Also if Todomomo is chocolate covered strawberries,Shouto,Momo and Dabi is cotton candy with oreo pieces(iykyk)

❤️‍🩹🍔Dabi's given chronic pain meds made by Momo with her quirk too!!

❤️‍🩹🍔Shouto has a special interest in lost media and Momo loves it too but perfers niche femme things like Shopkins

❤️‍🩹🍔Todomomo piercings:Angel bites,septum and industrial(Shouto)and spider bite,studed ears and belly button ring(Momo)

❤️‍🩹🍔And if i said they're Ghibli romantics?Both the dynamic + They're huge Studio Ghibli fans

❤️‍🩹🍔Please imagine Shouto and Momo in the Family Guy death pose after having their first energy drinks combos Grimace Shake memes style

❤️‍🩹🍔Their MLP ship counterpart is Sunset Shimmer and Pinkie Pie(Red-coded redeemed teenage dirtbag x Pink-coded sunshine fluffball with reality warping)

❤️‍🩹🍔They're huge Mcr fans.Not That Kind of Girl and To The End are Todomomo anthems and they have Killjoysonas they ship together!!

[punkeropercyjackson]

I could let the 'Hobie is a young adult' interpretation slide-I'd still think it's bad but it's not as bad as,like,denying Gwen's a trans girl-if the people who're so firm on it being the ONLY valid one weren't such dickbreaths about it.Like it dosen't make sense to me whenever i think of the movie's content and it's advertisements but i can kinda see why someone else would interpret him as 19-20 since i'm 22 and we have a lot in common and we look similar in some ways too so it's not unrealistic for someone like him to be an adult and i mean i feel it weakens his character and the story but that's not the end of the world but i see 'Hobie is OBVIOUSLY a grown man' mfs applying black male stereotypes to him nonstop which also depunkify him and being unnecesarily mean-spirited about him x Gwen/Margo/other teen Marvel girls and even accusing Punkflower shippers of being pedos so now i'm like WOAH y'know what fuck y'all he's a child and i know this because i adopted him.You get no adult Hobie because you're so sucks