#they're not perfect by any means; but they're also not *abusive controlling assholes* and they all really go through the wringer

[angorwhosebabyisthis]

this rewatch of sdmi has so far been a combination of skipping around and watching straight through from the beginning, and my feelings are increasingly that shaggy, daphne, and marcie are precious and oh my god someone please get these poor kids away from everyone else in this cast

[genericpuff]

hey gen p! i was reading a post of yours where you mentioned LO's age rating and briefly mentioned that minthe was verbally abusive during sex which surprised me bc i didnt really remember her being accused of doing so outside of the slap/havent come across any other accusation since, so i've been defending her against abuse allegations, maybe mistakenly, bc i stopped reading the comic at some point. is it too much to ask for some instances where she *was* abusive so i can correct my outlook?? thx! :3

oh so it's really just one scene and it's waaay back in Episode 8-

like i'm gonna assume this isn't a consensual kink play thing LOL but also like. I wanna make it clear also that people don't necessarily defend Minthe as not being abusive, many people who defend her are well aware that she's done abusive shit. They defend Minthe because 1.) she has a lot more potential for well-written character development than Hades and Persephone (as she's actually genuinely flawed as per the narrative vs. Hades and Persephone who are flawed but we're still expected to believe they're perfect, so unlike H x P Minthe actually has potential to do better and grow like characters should!) and 2.) a lot of Minthe's abuse towards Hades isn't necessarily justified but is a lot more understandable when you really analyze Hades and realize that he is, in fact, a piece of shit LOL

like don't get me wrong, I don't think Minthe was in the right by treating Hades like shit and escalating it to the slap, there are FAR better things she should have done... but I and many others defend her on the basis that she doesn't have the self-respect or resources necessary to look out for herself in a more productive way, much of which was facilitated by Hades trapping her in a financially abusive relationship. When you're worried not only about losing your partner, but also your house and your job with it, that's gonna turn into some unhealthy coping mechanisms and responses like physical and verbal abuse as we see in Minthe. She's someone who's not in control of her situation but is trying to maintain her control through unhealthy means.

Hades, on the flipside, has no excuse when he assaults people or acts like an asshole - he's just able to get away with it through the narrative, its characters, and the readers, because he's the rich and powerful main protagonist.

Minthe is an incredibly flawed person who was self-aware enough to understand what she was doing wasn't right but not equipped enough to do better. She's lower class (according to Rachel, all the nymphs are considered lower class compared to the gods) and was originally written as someone with untreated BPD, which Rachel later retconned (note: the episode where Minthe slaps Hades is literally called Splitting, which is a symptom of BPD, like it's not some assumption or misinterpretation, Rachel literally wrote BPD into the script and then tried to quietly backpedal on it later through Discord.) Hades is an incredibly flawed person who is self-aware of what he's doing, but doesn't see it as wrong and therefore doesn't see any reason to do better. But we're expected to root against the former as an irredeemable villain who can't do better and root for the latter who is an actual monster whose actions are justified and excused by the narrative and its creator.

So yeah, that's why a lot of us defend Minthe. She's not perfect, she's done abusive shit, but unlike Hades and Persephone, she has the capacity to grow and change for the better.

[gobbluthofficial]

i'm not a fan of the way people are talking about Gabe in the show and saying he's not abusive because i feel like you guys are feeding into some really dangerous narratives about domestic abuse.

Abuse is not just physical. they did dial him back a LOT in the show, but he is not by any means "just an asshole." before we even see his face, we hear him verbally abusing a maintenance worker who literally tells Percy to his face that he feels sorry that he has to go in there. he answers Sally's phone without asking her, showing he has completely taken away any sort of privacy she might have. she has to tell him she's going to use her own car, meaning she is used to him demanding to know her whereabouts and he has some level of control over where she is/when she can use her own car/when she can leave the house.

Sally yelling back at him does not make him any less abusive and citing this as some sort of evidence that he isn't feeds into the "perfect victim" mentality. not everyone reacts to abuse the same and some people push back against their abusers. this does not erase any abuse and does not make them bad people or abusers themselves, especially if all she's doing is just yelling back at him. (and don't even mention reactive abuse because anyone who knows what they're talking about will tell you it's fucking bullshit) I also think it's somewhat indicative of people expecting abuse victims to just shut up and take it and never stand up for themselves

i'm annoyed that the show is lowering the level of awful he was too, but keep in mind we're very early in the story. we still have time to see him get worse through tv interviews or flashbacks.

also keep in mind that reading about abuse and watching it play out with real actors are two completely different things. as much as i disapprove of the sanitizing of Gabe, i'm very grateful that any kids who have been using Percy Jackson to get away from a terrible home life or even kids who are new to the series won't have to watch their traumatizing experiences played out on screen.

[keiachi-chan]

Digimon adventure hot takes with little to no elaboration! (Mostly 02)

Warning I get VERY heated about certain things. Feel free to ask me about any of these takes if you want to have a RESPECTFUL convo about it.

Fuck 02 Tk oh my god this stupid insensitive BITCH (I'd still kiss his face!!)

DAMMIT they ruined Kari. (I'd still marry her!!)

Yolei is every 14 year old girl (And I never really liked her????)

Cody can do no wrong he could literally bash my skull in and I'd take him for ice cream after <333 This is not a hot take I just love him to death

Piedmon could've been a great ally if it wasn't for the absolutely abusive "father" that was Apocalymon. Like Piedmon was CREATED to be evil and then nobody ever told them otherwise bc they couldn't!! that's not their fault!! (Its yours >:[ /j)

SORATO MAKES NO SENSE. (Taiora makes the smallest amount of sense if you squint REALLY fucking hard.)

Given the context we get, kenyako is a toxic relationship!! First of all, its parasocial, at least at first. Its like if I ended up dating that one tiktoker who makes cute songs about her cat and rainbow slug sensory toys. I have NO clue who she is! Yolei has a celebrity crush, and even ends up more or less HATING him at some point! They hardly interact and I'm supposed to believe that they're just together now? BULLSHIT!

If Myotismon was a human he'd either be a womanizer or a child predator. The second option is mostly just vibes (and also Kay remembering traumatic events involving his older cousin.)

Devimon was hardly a villain he just seemed like a very smart dude who accidentally made his creative outlet mind control

Tk should punch Ken one more time for good measure (I hate seeing Ken hurt but smack him again)

In an attempt to make the 01 kids (+Tk & Kari) seem "more mature now," Toei just made all the ones who get screentime at all fucking assholes (except Izzy he is still perfect)

Koumi makes no sense to me!! Why???? Its just the geek/popular girl troupe how dare you (maybe its better in tri but I will never know because I will never watch Tri I think)

If Koushirou was a villain the others would not stand a FUCKING chance HE STRAIGHT UP HACKED INTO HIS DIGIMON TO MAKE IT DIGIVOLVE they would die in a SECOND

Takari is too cliche for me to even begin caring about

THE 02 KIDS ARE SO FUCKING MEAN THEY LEAVE DAVIS ON A FUCKING ISLAND AND BULLY HIM ALL THE TIME AND WHEN HE GETS HIS GOLDEN DIGIEGG THEN THEY RESPECT HIM

THIS is my most.. passionate take and I will DIE ON THIS HILL. DAVIS IS A WONDERFUL CHARACTER IN AN UNFITTING SITUATION!!

HE IS A 12 YEAR OLD BOY WHO SUDDENLY HAS TO SAVE THE WORLD, AND IS THROWN INTO THE SPOTLIGHT TO BE BERATED FOR NOT KNOWING THE INS AND OUTS OF THE DIGITAL WORLD OR HAVING THE MATURITY TO ADAPT RIGHT OF THE BAT

JUST WEEKS AGO HE WAS PLAYING SOCCER AND GETTING BULLIED BY HIS SISTER AND NOW HE HAS TO SAVE THE WORLD? AND PEOPLE STILL HAVE THE AUDACITY TO EVEN THINK ABOUT HATING HIM? BULLSHIT!!

You may argue. "but Kay!!" You say. "Yolei and Cody and Ken are more mature!" You whine. "And your art is really cool!" You compliment

Well, first of all thanks, and second of all let me make something clear

Cody was RAISED to be like that™

Yolei has several siblings and has to help run a store! Of course she has to be mature!!

Ken? his goddamn brother died dude. Trauma forces you to grow up way too fast.

Don't even get me STARTED on the angel tamers If you try to make that argument against Davis using THOSE two, who were trapped in the digital world before, you're so mean!!

Davis lived a normal life before all this! He just grew up with the normal responsibilities and household and everything of a 12 year old! He's just a normal kid in a dangerous situation! Are you going to HATE a child for BEING A CHILD? Holy fuck dude!!!

I WILL DIE DEFENDING DAVIS HE IS THE MOST REALISTIC CHILD CHARACTER AND PEOPLE HATE HIM BECAUSE HE'S NOT MENTALLY 20

Anyways uhh if I come up with anything else I'll put it in a reblog

@tangledupblue you wanted to see this post I think-? Sorry if not

Oh also this one will get me hung; I like Taishirou better than Taito. Lol lmao.

[alltheangstmygifttoyou]

Tell me a little about Noah and Jesse?

Yeah! I've been working on answering your other question, its just been hard to choose who and organize my thoughts :p

Noah and Jesse are both main charecters in the book series im trying to write and are very different. Noah for a while in the middle of his development a charecter that could encapsulate my experience with anxiety and intrusive thoughts. He's the youngest of the main five, and the only one that had a good (not completely healthy but neither had any bad intentions) relationship with his parents, which is basically just his mom because his bio and step dad are gone from the world by the time he's two. However, the reason that I wouldn't say the relationship between the two is healthy is because his mother has an illness (havent decided exactly what, but I do want to make one up, just need to research illnesses and how they work more) that wears the body down until it can no longer function. With her being a single mother and no longer able to move from full bed rest by the time Noah's eight, hes been taking care of her to the point of neglecting his own health and well being. Noah is also arguably the most powerful of the group. Everyone with no exceptions has some sort of power in the books world, some as simple as always finding the right page of a book to being able to shift their form to what they desire. No two powers are exactly the same, though they can be very similar that to anyone else they look the same. Noah was born with the power to be able to make people do anything he wants by telling them. He struggles hard because he isn't good at controlling what he tells someone to do without forcing them how to do so, and two deaths result because of this. He does however learn to turn it on and off, and how to get exactly what he wants to happen, but that'll happen in the middle of the book series, since he's understandably terrified of himself.

Jesse on the other hand is a sympathetic asshole who annoys me but ill die for him. His twin Jester is the main of main charecters in the story so developing her meant developing him and their parents. His parents are not standard in this universe or our own. Their isn't a single healthy relationship in this family. There is just violence, betrayal, avoidance, and being the picture perfect wealthiest family in the world to the public. Their parents relationship and mental state result in Jester being patented by her father more and Jesse their mother. They all still live in the same house and interact on a daily basis, but discipline, chores, expectations, etc are different for each. While Jester is being horribly abused by their father while he forces her to learn the art of manipulation, Jesse is learning from his mom how to be a rich smug asshole and how to be arrogant enough that everyone besides his parents are worth less than the gum on the sidewalk. She also takes her religion, pulls horrible interpretations out, and shoves them down his throat. He is ripped into emotionally if he upsets her and often gets slapped or other shitty abuse that some people wouldn't recognize as such. This results in Jesse spending the begining part of the series as more of an antagonist before having his entire world view turned upside down after plot stuff and he starts working with the other protagonists. However, he's still an asshole and struggles to let go a lot of his awful opinions and views of the world. Meaning that he pisses all the other charecters off often and since they're all teens some of them get more easily distracted by arguing it gets them into serious trouble at times. Jesse and Noah have the least developed relationship (besides Noah and Elena) because Jesse thinks Noah is a weak stupid crybaby and Noah doesn't have the self esteem or confidence to disagree (ill fight him for you noah). However, Noah will interject if he feels like Jesse is being too cruel to one of the others, which results on Jesse's explosive temper being targeted at him. Jesse's power is also very strong (all of the main charecters are), he is able to increase and decrease the amount of the specific emotion/s he wants on another person. He can also affect multiple people at once. He finds it easiest to manipulate others fear. This can be deadly if he's not careful, though he doesn't know this until later in the series.

Thank you for asking!

[yiangchen]

If there was one aspect (a certain character, a relationship, the plot of a season, etc.) of the 100 that you had control over (aside from Blarke), what would you choose and why? It can be something that's already happened in a previous season that you would change and replace with something else. Like, if you didn't like a certain storyline from a previous season or something. You can also pick a dead character and make it so they're alive. (yes im asking you your own question, i gotta know)

When I asked you this, I had a straight answer: the Blake sibling relationship. That relationship in seasons 1-2 means so much to me and I’ll forever be bitter with the gross direction it took in season 3 (and on). 

Once I had more time to think about it though, I was considering picking season 3 in general (like you did), but since I’m in the process of rewriting season 3 already, I don’t wanna spoil any of my ideas for that fic (even though let’s be honest, I’ll probably never finish it. I’m at about 10,000 words rn and the plan is for it to be like 100,000.)

BUT ANYWAYS, since I’ve been so indecisive and can’t get any of my thoughts together, I figured I’d pick kind of a combination of the two in the form of a fic.

I’m working on one right now that would be perfect as an answer to this ask. I’m rewriting all of the Bellarke scenes (from 3x13 through s5 era) where they talk about Octavia but the abuse is addressed because Clarke knows about the beating in this AU.

However, I’m only halfway done with that one, so I decided on a fic I wrote a while back before I had tumblr. It diverges from canon in episode 3x09, specifically at the start of the Bellamy and Octavia scene where he meets her in the woods with a plan to save Lincoln (spoiler alert: she doesn’t drug him, and therefore, none of the other shitty stuff happens).

As Long As I’m With You, I’m Home

When Bellamy catches a glimpse of the dropship through the trees, he tugs on the reins, and his horse comes to a stop. Night has fallen, but moonlight filters in between the branches above his head, illuminating the place he used to call home.

Home.

The word flits through his mind. Being back here has the tension in his shoulders easing. His lips part, the space before him filling with light, and suddenly, the abandoned camp is alive once again.

Alive with the people who became his family.

Before landing on the ground, Octavia was the only family he ever knew. The decisions he made—the facade of the asshole he played—was all to keep her safe. Slowly though, he came to care for the rest of them too. Before he knew it, those kids were the steady beat of his heart. A family to fight for.

When Trikru threatened them, he worked alongside Clarke to do the best he could to keep everyone alive. For the most part, the 100 worked together, all in fear of the people who had speared one of them the very day they landed. Octavia though, she always had one foot in, one foot out, and Bellamy gets it. Because even though he sacrificed so much to protect her, he’d made mistakes. Mistakes she blamed him for.

He had never held any of it against her, and when the time came to let go, he had.

It had been the hardest decision he ever had to make, but they came out of it stronger. By giving her her freedom, it gave her the choice to come back when she was ready. And she did. For probably the first time in their relationship, she sacrificed something for him. Sacrificed being Indra’s second so that she could help him get out of Mount Weather.

It took some time apart, but they finally discovered what it truly meant to be brother and sister. Their relationship was healthier than ever.

That all changed when the Ice Nation killed 44 of their people.

Bellamy was tired. So tired of losing his people to the grounders, and just like that, it was like his relationship with Octavia regressed back to how it had been in the dropship days.

As if on cue, Octavia appears from across the camp riding in on Helios, effectively replacing the once thriving camp with dilapidated tents and charred earth.

Bellamy finds her eyes in the dark, and he feels his heart thump against his ribs. The last time he saw her, she was warning him of the ambush at Semet’s village, and even during the last few weeks before that, she had been understandably angry with him. At least from her side of things, that is.

He’s still not sure if he agrees with the things he’s done either, but he knows he’ll be damned if he lets Pike kill Lincoln, Sinclair and Kane. Through all this, all he wanted was to protect his people. He believed supporting Pike would do just that. However, if he’d known some of his own people would be sentenced to death, he can say without a doubt that he never would have followed Pike.

“I’m glad you came,” Bellamy says as Octavia dismounts from her horse and he does the same. She eyes him warily, glancing around a bit and searching the trees. “I’m alone, O,” he assures, shoulders sagging. “I’m here to help.”

Octavia finds his eyes again and lets out a breath. She almost smiles, crossing the space between them and tugging him into her arms. Bellamy is ready for her and he huffs out a breath of relief into her shoulder.

“I’m still mad at you,” she says, but she tightens her hold him.

Bellamy’s eyes close. “I’m sorry.”

Octavia pulls back, hands on his shoulders. “We can talk later.” She arches an eyebrow at him. “You have a plan, right?”

Bellamy nods. Octavia gives him a nod back and starts to head over to her horse before pulling him into another quick hug. Bellamy breathes out a laugh. “I missed you too, O.”

…

With the help of Monty, they create a diversion in Arkadia. He shouts into the radio, informing Pike and his guards that the prisoners have escaped. It’s not a lie exactly. Just the part concerning the exit they’re planning to use.

Meanwhile, Bryan runs alongside Pike, playing along and making sure he leads him and his guards astray. Miller and Harper keep an eye out for people who may stumble across the path Bellamy and the prisoners are taking to freedom, throwing in a few more frantic false leads into the radio every so often to keep Pike distracted.

Bryan takes the opportunity to duck away down a dimly lit corridor where he nearly runs into Monty on his way out of the control room. They meet up with Miller and Harper further down, and the four make a run for it, right behind Bellamy and the others.

Octavia is waiting for them outside the gates. The number of horses she’s got with her would be quite amusing if they weren’t running for their lives.

She lets out a breath of relief the second she makes brief contact with her brother, and then Lincoln. There isn’t time to waste though. The horses go to the sick Trikru first, and Lincoln snags the last one, wanting to lead his people out of there as soon as possible.

Kane, Sinclair, Miller, Bryan, Harper and Monty hurry off after them on foot. Octavia is turning to leave when she realizes Bellamy isn’t making a move to come with them.

“Bellamy, we have to go. Now.”

He shakes his head and swallows. “I have an idea.” Octavia opens her mouth to say something, but he beats her to it. “If I go back, he’ll think I’m still on his side, but if I leave now, there’s no way I’m getting back into this camp.”

“Or,” Octavia cuts in, “you come with me now and we get the hell out of here.”

“O, you said it yourself. We need to take him out. I couldn’t see it before, but this only ends one way.”

“No.”

“O—”

“I may be angry with you, but I’m not gonna let you risk your life like that. The second he figures you out, he’ll kill you.”

“I know, but I have to try. You gotta let me do this, O.”

Octavia gives him a look and arches an eyebrow, like you have got to be kidding me.

Bellamy sighs. I’m not.

Octavia purses her lips and swallows, finally relenting with a nod.

Bellamy nods back. “I’ll lead a search party at first light.” Octavia opens her mouth to say something, then closes it. Bellamy’s lips part as she turns to leave. “Octavia.”

She finds his eyes. 

“Thank you,” he breathes. Octavia furrows her eyebrows. “For still caring if I live or die.” It’s the lamest attempt at a joke, and Octavia’s lips part. “Even after everything…” Bellamy purses his lips to keep them from trembling, eyes watery. Maybe he still believes that what he had to do was necessary, but it doesn’t mean he’s not beating himself up over it every day.

Octavia crosses the space between them and pulls him into a tight hug. “The day I don’t,” she says, voice wavering, “you can assume I’m no longer breathing.”

…

Bellamy’s plan works. He would have prefered to spare the lives of Pike’s guards, but the grounders enforcing the blockade took them all out during the ambush in the woods.

The more impertinent problem is that Arkadia has been taken over, so Octavia’s relief at seeing her brother unharmed is short-lived. They wouldn’t have known had it not been for Jasper and Clarke showing up in the rover, an unconscious, chipped Raven in the back seat.

Bellamy and Clarke barely have the chance to stop and stare at each other for a moment, lips parted, before Jasper is yelling at them to all get in the damn rover. They’d nearly been caught the first time, and he’s sure ALIE’s minions are already on their way, in pursuit of Raven because she knows too much. Given the look on Jasper’s face, Bellamy thinks twice about making a comment about how unsafe it is to cram nine people into the rover.

Clarke asks about Lincoln, needing him to take her to Luna once they save Raven. By now though, he and the sick Trikru are long gone, probably halfway to the sea on their way to hide out with Luna’s people.

Clarke swears and leans her head back against the headrest of her seat. Bellamy tracks the movement with a quick glance her away. He looks away before she notices, returning his eyes to the makeshift path through the woods.

…

Raven wakes suddenly and thrashes around several times as they drive, nearly managing to kick and punch her way out the window at one point. Bellamy drives relatively aimlessly, heading in the general opposite direction of Arkadia until they discover they need a wristband to save Raven.

By the time they arrive at Niylah’s trading post, everyone is quite relieved. It’s no secret that Jasper still blames Clarke for what happened at Mount Weather, and Bellamy had to cut in a few times to stop him from ripping on her.

Jasper questions him about this later, wondering how he’s cool with her coming back after all this time. His answer is plain and simple: that she’s trying to save Raven. Really, he just doesn’t want to think about it.

So he doesn’t. And neither does Clarke.

It seems all they’ve done recently is hurt each other, so they don’t talk about what happened the last time they were in the same room together. Instead, he does the best he can to shelter her from Jasper’s harsh words, gently tends to her wounds when Raven gets to her, and offers to take a turn with Raven.

Later, Clarke’s there to wrap his hand even though he’d already bandaged it himself. Really, it’s just an excuse to tend to him the way he had her. When he expresses doubt in his decisions lately, eyes watery, she tells him maybe there are no good guys.

They save Raven that same night, and are off again in the morning, heading towards the sea. This time when Bellamy glances over at Clarke, she manages a small, closed-lip smile. It’s still going to take them a little bit to heal, but he finds himself giving her one back.

Even though these last two days have been crazy, for the first time, he feels something loosen in his chest, and when he catches sight of his friends smiling and laughing in the back of the rover, that something in his chest feels a lot like hope.

[darkpoisonouslove]

Okay, I am absolutely fucking PISSED about the fact that they are making Luna controlling because everything we've seen from her has pointed to the exact opposite. She is caring and supportive and now the show has turned her on her head like with most other characters. Now in light of the fact that the plot delves into the trauma the older generation could make her a well-rounded character and explain her behavior but it still isn't going to be Luna as we know her in the cartoon. And that is my biggest problem with the whole thing. They just slap the character names on different characters that either have nothing to do with the original ones or are the exact opposite of their cartoon counterpart. It doesn't make sense because the cartoon characters already exist in a world that is the consequences of a war as well so they didn't have to change their personalities to fit them into a narrative that revolves around massive generational trauma.

And what really irks me is the fact that all the changes we have seen to the parents and the adult characters in general have been made for the worse. Bloom's relationship with her parents is a lot less open than in the cartoon, Stella's mother is going to be "controlling", Faragonda - oh, sorry, her stand-in - is being abusive towards her assistant. The only positive change is Sky's father being a revered hero but guess what! He's dead! I understand that they are playing hard into the consequences of the war that took place but that doesn't mean that every adult should be a fucking asshole. They can be complex characters dealing with trauma without being a damn curse to everyone around them. Besides, YA always acts as if the only way for the young adults to become their own people is if there are no actual adults around or every "mature" person isn't actually mature. Separating the growing characters from their parents and mentors is a way for them to become independent but it doesn't mean that they can't use the insight and guidance of the older generation. I am sick of having no healthy intergenerational relationships in media. Can we just not? I always complain that the cartoon could have used more involvement from the adults but what it did have was actually pretty decent most of the time (Bloom with Mike and Vanessa was the absolute best and now they're most probably scrapping all of that actual perfection).

That said, I am actually interested in the plot and the world. I am getting hyped over the fact that they actually get a magical system that is explained during their lessons. The cartoon really abandoned that after season 2 and even while it was doing it, it wasn't all that in-depth so I hope they will actually explore more. If we're not getting any wings and they're messing up the whole vibe around the magical powers and how they function, I at least expect them to do something interesting with their magical system. I am also excited about seeing more of the exploration of the trauma that everyone from the older generation is suffering. That is definitely a part of canon that could have been explored a lot more but wasn't really touched at all. However, I have to say that what I read makes me think even more that this would have worked much better if it were a spin-off series set during the time of the Company of Light. They would have had much more freedom with the plot and perfect opportunities to make everything edgy without having to massacre events and characters that old-time fans already love. If that is the central part of the plot anyway, it could have easily worked and worked better with the Company of Light characters that would have left more room to work with.

Lastly, what I read about the friendship and how it suffers is actually really painful. I was convinced that that was how it would go because of the "mature" and "edgy" vibe and the power of friendship somehow does not line up with that. However, watching the interview clip actually kinda made me put a pause on that thought because they seemed pretty friendly to each other. According to the article above, though, that must have been just the best moments and it seems that my initial concerns are more valid than I had thought. I am not going to be making up my mind on something I haven't watched yet but I am wary about watching it once again because I am not prepared to see their relationship ruined. The Winx girls had their fair share of fights with each other but the friendship between them could always be felt and getting the vibe that they are only together out of obligation is something that upsets me deeply (it has happened before while reading fic) even if they jumped the gun on becoming friends in the cartoon (that literally took 3 seconds and they were suddenly ready to die for each other). It's really annoying that somehow friendship seems to be written off as something that doesn't belong in the adult world. Can we abolish this idea already? Thanks.

I read this review and while the plot looks interesting (shady-gonda and generational trauma could be such a good storyline), I'm really sad that they made such lovable characters so meh at best and annoying at worst.

[awed-frog]

hey! i wanted to let you know that i think your cas/stages of grief meta was absolutely amazing. cas's story never really made sense to me, it always seemed so inconsistent, like they had no idea where they were going with it, and your meta is the first i've read that made me see some central theme in it after all. so kudos for that :) just out of curiosity, you have any idea where they're going with crowley? bc his story is another one that always felt the opposite of straightforward to me.

Whats your hope for Crowleys arc on this season?

Hi! Thank you so much for all that! I am the most awful person, because not only I’m like, two months late in answering this but I’m also going to bundle it up with an anon ask. Sorry, @andallthewildthingsroared!

(I did write the overly long thing I promised you, though, so there’s that.)

I understand where you’re coming from - Crowley’s arc is sort of zigzaggy, but if you take away what was clearly bad characterization (such as that one-off threat to Sam complete with red eyes which never went anywhere), I sort of feel like we can know who Crowley is, and what he wants.

Background

So, just as a summary - we know he was a bastard, and that he had a stable enough relationship with his mother that he remembers her (not fondly), and that she up and left soon enough that it felt like she was abandoning him (eight is a bit soon to fend for yourself, even in the seventeenth century). We know he had a son, and since Gavin’s mother is never mentioned, I want to say unremarkable entity who died in childbirth? Because if this had been his great love, and if she’d survived long enough to be remembered by Gavin, I hope to God that would have been brought up in the narrative (come on). So, either Crowley didn’t give a damn about her, and got saddled with the kid for some reason, or he cared a lot and she died pretty early on and that’s possibly the reason he started being so awful to everybody (hello, John Winchester’s parallels). We also know he was a tailor, which, in those times, and for an orphan, implies either that Rowena used magic to help him out (unlikely for a number of reasons) or that he was actually a very smart, very talented kid who had to work his ass off during his apprenticeship, as was usual for the times. In this case, we’ve got someone whose life was out of his control from a very young age, and who knows what it’s like to be at a master’s whim. 

Demon deal

Now, what doesn’t fit with this picture is the idea a kid like that would sell his soul for a longer dick, as Crowley boasted to have done (also, as amusing as it is, this would be a moot point by now, since Crowley’s in a different body). What I consider more likely is that Crowley’s current vessel - the literary agent in his late forties possibly all work and all play as that job often entails - tried to make a similar deal (and that would be a reason for Crowley to stick with the body afterwards; after all, we know he’s vain and likes to sleep around, so, vessel for vessel, why not go for a bigger dong?); as for Crowley himself, I really can’t guess what happened. Gavin remembers him as a useless drunkard, and he certainly had no riches to pass on - so much so, Gavin was forced to emigrate to the Colonies. What did Crowley gain, exactly, in exchange for his soul? An intriguing possibility is that, like Dean, he took the deal to save someone else - perhaps Gavin himself from some childhood fever - and became a drunk asshole out of blind panic the closer he got to the deadline. I like this explanation, because there was always this weird pull between Crowley and Dean, and this would go a long way towards explaining it; but, really, this is one of those things it’s useless to speculate about - either the show will tell us, or it won’t.

(Another possibility I like, but which would have come up by now, is that Rowena sold her kid’s soul to pay for her own magic - a plot bunny I explored here.)

Whatever his reasons, Crowley’s time in hell took this primal lack of control over his own life and made it a thousand times worse. We still don’t know, exactly, how demons are created, how long it takes, and who decides which eyes you’ll get, and which job you’ll do. This is, like, one of the 2000 things the show could get into instead of inventing new lore (I’m not complaining, though - S11 was magnificent, and S12 has been very good so far). What we do know is that the entire process is excruciatingly painful; that it distorts, or takes away, your human soul. If we think about other soulless creatures we’ve encountered, what Crowley is makes a lot of sense. It’s not about being evil, exactly; it’s more about a lack of caring and empathy. There are moments where Crowley actually reminds me of soulless!Sam - like when he pushed Dean into Cain’s arms just because it was convenient on the short term. 

Crowley the crossroads demon

Becoming a demon is also the worst kind of punishment, we should assume, because it completely takes away your free will.

(This is not exactly true, since we’ve seen a lot of demons doing stuff on the side and betraying their masters left, right and centre - but I want to think those demons breaking ranks parallel the mess that’s going on in Heaven - that these are creatures that, under normal circumstances, ie, pre-Winchesters and pre-Apocalypse, functioned as mindless servants under a king. Like angels, demons can, theoretically, think for themselves, but I feel like they’re not designed to? Although, where the angels craved order - and orders - Crowley was hoping to get support by promising other demons ‘a say, a virgin and all the entrails they can eat’ - which means demons are perhaps not as happy as angels to give up their agency. And, well, it would make sense: they do not belong to a different species, after all. They used to be human.)

And so we’ve got the transformation from human!Crowley, indentured to some abusive master as a boy, to demon!Crowley, who’s got no choice but to follow his torturers around. Except, well, Crowley’s smart (too smart for his own good, probably) and ballsy and free will is something he cares about, very fucking much (and this is another tie to Dean). From what we know, it looks like Crowley schemed and schmoozed his way into acquiring enough weapons, knowledge, powers and secrets that he was almost part of the inner circle which was preparing for Lucifer’s return. And here is where his story gets interesting, because, to get Roman about it, “We rob the world, but he will rifle the deep. If the enemy be rich, Lucifer will be rapacious; if he be poor, Lucifer will lust for dominion; he will make a desert and call it peace.”

Crowley and the Winchesters

I don’t remember if it’s ever explained why Crowley chose to bet on the Winchesters, of all people, to go against Lucifer. I think we’re meant to not question this - to assume that they’re our main characters and fierce hunters and yadda yadda, but it’s still interesting that Crowley would know them - and well, at that. I like to think they’d been on his radar from the very beginning (or, at least, that Sam was) because of Azazel’s demented scheme, and it’s certainly possible Crowley knew everything about their dealings with Hell, including Sam’s death, Dean’s self-sacrifice, and how and why he was saved. He’s been shown, after all, to be one of the most knowledgeable characters on the board, and if he’s been keeping track of the Winchesters for years and years, that would go a long way in explaining his fond exasperation for their antics. 

Now, Crowley is, of course, fascinating and interesting in himself, but what is also worth noting is that his character, like Cas’ (and perhaps even more than Cas’), is relevant in light of his relation to Dean - and Dean’s sexuality.

The first thing here is - unlike Cas, who, inevitably, had a very strong relationship with Dean from the start which made perfect narrative sense, Crowley could always go either way. It can even be argued that logically, it would have made more sense to pair him off with Sam. First of all, there’s the symmetry (Dean and his angel, Sam and his demon); then there’s the fact Crowley’s got more in common with Sam than he does with Dean - the books, the art, the interest in weird languages and weirder mythology, a general ‘the end justifies the means’ attitude - I know we now have years of backstory to influence how we view those characters, but if we take them in isolation - sure, Dean and Crowley would have fun on a night out (and we’ve seen what they do together: play pool, get drunk, sleep it off with a various number of partners of unspecified gender), but Sam and Crowley - now, that had the potential of a real friendship of the minds (as I said, forget about their history and put aside Crowley’s shady morals for a second - can’t you see how much fun they would have had to explore the Bunker’s library together? how they could have planned thefts, Leverage-style, to recover some painting stolen by an oil magnate - how they would have fought at the end, because, of course, Sam wanted to donate it to a museum and Crowley, well, was planning on keeping it, because he0d bloody well earned it?). Sam becoming friends with a demon after the whole Ruby ordeal would have been a huge bout of character growth, in line with his ‘forgive and don’t judge people by their birth’ personality. And as for Crowley, it would have made sense for him to bond with Sam rather than Dean - if only for the obvious reason: Sam could still be (potentially) his future boss. The boy with the demon blood; the only vessel that can hold Lucifer. Honestly, since Crowley never wanted to be king in the first place, it would have made perfect sense for him to seduce Sam (platonically) and then guide him to the throne - there, problem solved. He would have been chief advisor of The One Who Was Foretold, right there at Sam’s right hand to keep an eye on his every decision, and he would have known, because he would have taken the time to get to know Sam, that Sam (even as a demon king) would be a fair ruler - and, more importantly, a ruler loyal to his old friends.

It was, really, the perfect scheme - and yet the idea never came up at all. In fact, Sam and Crowley lost another momentous occasion to get closer to each other - even after Sam fed Crowley his own blood, the relationship between them remained distant at best, and hostile at worst. That always struck me as really, really weird. Sam saw Crowley at his most vulnerable, and despite being Mr Forgiveness, he continues to hate Crowley with a vengeance and the whole thing never comes up at all. Uh.

I mostly think the main reason for this is very simple: Sam ‘I desperately need my own plotline’ Winchester is straight. Very straight. Pairing him with a man would have been weird. Mirroring the relationship Dean has with Cas - weirder. The thing worked until Ruby was around, but with Crowley they would have missed a lot of juicy subtext. And so, once again and despite all odds, Dean got yet another character to add to his court, and Sam was left with nothing more than Lucifer’s mild interest in him (or, as Sam himself put it in entaglednow’s side-splitting series, “Great, you get the epic love story and I get the creepy sadomasochistic non-con.”).

(This is another reason, by the way, why their refusal to be clearer on the whole ‘Dean is bi’ issue is hurting the show: it is partly, or mostly, because they’re desperate to keep that subtext going that Dean gets all the characters - people like Charlie, or Benny, or even Jody offering him to talk in her most suave mom voice - all of these things make sense in the narrative because they’re feeding the underlying subtext. And since this is, objectively, a Big Story and the core of who Dean is, and Sam’s only stake in it would be a tragic ‘I know I said I’d die for him, but I’ll now reject my gay brother out of moral virtue’ nonsense which clearly doesn’t apply to the character, he’s left with literally nothing to do. Really - most of the story seems to gravitate around these two open secrets - Dean’s sexuality, and Dean’s love for Cas; and since, as I said, Sam’s got nothing to do with either, and no reason to be mad about either, he’s left with no narrative role. Only yesterday @tinkdw was saying how the entire myth arc of S11 doesn’t make any sense without Destiel, and she’s perfectly right; most things, for a lot of time, have been about Dean’s heart.

And I want to add that I’m not okay, or happy, with any of this. First, I think it’s dishonest to include so much subtext that it basically props up your whole narrative while denying anything’s going on; and second, Sam’s a fantastic character and there’s a lot he could do - it defies logic and reason that they’re not using him better. Like, I still can’t believe the entire God reveal was only about Dean, that we still haven’t heard how Sam feels about Lucifer being around, that he’s barely had one conversation with his mother, and that he basically has zero relationships with other characters. Come on - there’s so many awesome things you could do with someone like Sam, why aren’t they doing them? On a show that’s supposedly all about the two of them, and only the two of them?)

Crowley’s arc

By having Crowley’s represent Dean’s eros to Cas’ agape (and I want to say this is a learned reference, but I’m really just thinking about YOI right now), the main mirror for Crowley, and therefore his character arc, was firmly established. Crowley would parallel Cas - and viceversa. The journey, for both of them, is to get closer to humanity (and ‘humanity’), and what’s been fascinating is that, of course, they start off in two very different places.

As I said in the beginning, Crowley’s all about control. He’s very Scarlett O’Hara about things, and he’s got good reason to be. In this, he’s heavily paralleled with Cas, but where Cas focuses his newfound (?) free will on everything but himself - hence the Jesus-like characterization - Crowley’s most consistent character trait is his selfishness. All of his schemes, and most of his ambitions, are ultimately directed at saving himself and avoid pain and death, which, to be honest, would be sensible from anyone’s point of view but is particularly understandable if we consider we’re dealing with a soulless creature who’s got no capacity to love and has endured decades, if not centures, of torture. What is most significant about Crowley, therefore, is the same thing that makes Cas stands out: how Crowley is learning about himself, and how to become who he truly is, through his love for Dean. This is something that we discuss every other day, so I won’t get into it (see for instance the ‘drowley’ tag on my blog, or read here, here or here), but it’s clearly become a major part of his character arc. 

(His decision to sacrifice that spear to save Cas, for instance, was a huge step in this direction - selfishness to selflessness - so huge I still can’t believe I watched it with my own two eyes. It will probably be mirrored, quite soon, by Cas making a step of his own - in his case, towards selfishness, ie, the Winchesters’ happiness, and therefore his own, and away from yet another idiotic heavenly battle plan.) 

As for what will come of it - the problem with this kind of Are you truly my enemy? characters - or, well, the trouble with everything - is that there is a limited number pf ways their story can end. And, again, the problem with Crowley and where his story is going is the same problem we have with everything else - Dean, Sam, Destiel and so on: it all depends on which kind of story this is, and what they’re trying to say with it. So, let’s have a look at it.

A) Crowley could remain his slightly evil self and die because of it - this would place Supernatural in a kind of ‘moralistic’ narrative: the good guys triumph, and the bad guys pay the price.

B) Or, he could try to do the right thing and get killed in the process: that’s the definition of tragedy, which somehow works even better when a character was despicable to start with - think Last of the Mohicans, or Severus Snape. In this case, his death would likely be the first (or the last) of many other significant characters.

C) Another possibility is that Crowley could become human, and that would be both interesting and heartbreaking to watch, because we know Crowley is very ambitious, but, as I said, my headcanon is that he became wary and power-hungry because of what was done to him in Hell. After all, Dean did get a kind of special treatment, but what he went through was also the standard procedure to destroy someone’s soul - so drunken tailor Fergus was probably on the rack for decades, until the last shred of humanity left inside him burned and withered, and it’s likely that at some point he had his O'Hara moment and that’s why he always puts himself first: because he’s bloody scared shitless to be vulnerable again. In this sense, a human Crowley would be resentful and terrified - and therefore, a beautiful character to watch.

(Not that there would be anyone left to watch, since if they go there, I think they’ll do it at the last possible moment.)

D) Or, Crowley could remain a demon but shift his priorities so completely as to work with the Winchesters full-time, sort of like Cas did. Now, this would be quite something because Cas and Crowley are often paralleled, but at the same time it would put Crowley in a difficult position: I am sure Sam and Dean would fully accept him as a member of TFW only if Crowley repented and behaved like an unpstanding citizen from then on, and how is all that compatible with being the king of Hell? Plus, what would happen to the other demons? Was Crowley making more demons when he had complete control of Hell? We know he turned Hell more bureaucratic and 'punishment fits the crime’ and whatever, but his demons were still eating human flesh, and I’m not sure they can even survive without? So, well, however noble Crowley’s intentions, that would be an uneasy alliance. If Crowley remains his lovable and snarky demon self, I see more of an Eric Northman ending for him: sure, he gets his throne and all sort of pretty distractions, but he loses his Sookie forever.

E) And finally: Crowley could be killed in a freak ‘accident’, maybe by an ally of the Winchesters who didn’t know he was sort of a friend (Mary is a prime candidate), or by Cas or Sam because of the greater good, or maybe even by Dean himself - but not by choice - and that would be a sort of fridging because it would shift the meaning of his death to the damage it’d do to his killer.

Which hypothesis is more likely? 

Well: first of all, we need to bear in mind a few RL factors. They’ll probably want to keep Mark around because he’s awesome, the fans generally like him so that’s another plus, and I firmly believe they still don’t know how they want Supernatural to end (or even what the next season’s theme is going to be) so a character like Crowley is a godsend, because when weird shit needs to happen or you suddenly need drama or whatever, you can always count on someone like that to make it happen (and that’s another reason why I don’t think Crowley will become human any time soon: it would severely limit the weird shit they can pull off) - which means, it’s likely they’ll keep him around for a while. And also: his death would bring nothing, narratively, to the table. For instance, John’s death and Bobby’s death sort of made sense, because the boys had some growing up to do, and killing someone like Cain or defeating Lucifer was important because it told us our boys are on the Good side even when it’s difficult, but now we know all this. 

To me - if we’re looking at the very end, there are only two ways this makes sense: either Crowley is killed off, or sacrifices himself, in some heartwrenching scenario so that his death will mean Cas or Dean or even Sam lives, or he becomes human - my headcanon is that he’ll still know how to do magic, because I’m a sucker for magician!Crowley - and walks away from the boys entirely. If Supernatural ends in tragedy, then it’s the first option all the way; but if its end is more like, there are no more monsters and you’re now free to open a car repair shop, then it only makes sense that both Cas and Crowley become human. Cas will be the sort of human who still stares up at the sky from time to time and will lie to Dean when Dean asks and say it’s okay (hopefully, Dean won’t believe a word of it and kiss him extra hard that night), and Crowley - Crowley likes to be the centre of attention, so I’m thinking politics. Or maybe he’ll hoodwink his way to the very top of a renowned auction house and meet some wealthy widow at his local golf club, and that will be it - a sort of happy ending, and the occasional drunk call to Dean to reminisce about that happy, happy summer they once had.