#they have to listen to Jensen and Misha because they are the only ones who understand

[lovealwayssay]

I keep saying I want a Supernatural Season 16 but do I really want it? In my head it’d be this great season that erases the finale, makes Destiel canon, and shows Sam getting the happy ending he deserves, but in reality it’d probably be some homophobic mess that’s somehow worse than the finale we have now. I don’t know if I want to live through more terrible Supernatural, you know?

[lightofraye]

Hi there!

Well, I try, anyway. It's studying body language and listening to people, to the point of doing it on repeat and driving myself up a wall. Ahem. Anyway….

To your question!

So… yes. A lot of Cockles fanatics like to reference the older convention videos because, well, there was more for them to draw on. It's also due to the fact that Misha wasn't that BAD. He'd make an off-color statement or two, drop teasers that he and Jensen were more when it wasn't true.

I think Jensen just brushed it off, if he was even aware of this stuff being said in Misha's panels. I honestly don't think he's aware unless someone told him. In fact, Jensen didn't know Misha tweeted that awful photo manipulated photo of him as a young model until someone showed him in a panel! In a more recent panel with JDM, Jensen was told of Misha fat shaming him and JDM just brushed it off as Misha saying shit. Jensen wasn't aware of that either.

He's honestly too busy, Jensen, to pay attention to half the stuff Misha says. And it's a good thing that he doesn't, because it's just so full of toxicity, bullshit lies, and pandering.

Anyway, sorry. Jensen and Jared were decent work friends with Misha. I think a lot of times, Jared and Jensen had to put up with it precisely because they were working with Misha. But as Misha's hours got cut more and more, his scenes fewer, I think was a relief for J2. Especially for Jared, given how Misha clearly hates him and is jealous of Jared's success.

As for Jensen….

This will be a hit and miss for some. I know some will disagree. This is my opinion.

Like @go-diane-winchester once speculated, Jensen is timid. He doesn't do well with standing up to others--I've mentioned this before. He failed to stand up for Mark Sheppard when CW decided to be an asshole. (Misha caved too. The only one who didn't was Jared). It also doesn't help that a lot of stans don't listen to him. When it comes to Destiel and Cockles, it doesn't seem to matter what Jensen says--they're not listening. And Misha seems to know that; depends on it; grifts on it.

Maybe once upon a time Jensen was a friend to Misha, but Jared? I think Jared saw him as the snake he was and made sure to set down boundaries that Misha couldn't break. Then Jensen began to rail against Destiel hard and it nearly destroyed his reputation. Misha saw that, knows that that's his money ticket.

The nonsense about the ring? Misha wasn't gifted that ring by Jensen. Misha just bought it, a fan noted it was similar to Jensen's and decided that yeah, it was that. That's all it took.

In fact, I don't think Misha and Jensen have hung out together outside conventions in years and the few times they were seemingly seen outside of conventions--such as having a snack in Jensen's trailer with Danneel during filming--were just that, filming. Misha himself said he had never been in Austin before the convention last year. Jensen himself said Jared was the only one his kids call uncle.

Why are the Cockles fanatics so desperate for that ship? I have no idea. Jensen and Misha have zero chemistry and Jensen is frequently seen sitting far away (and that "cute" thing of how personal space is overrated was quickly negated by Jensen immediately pulling away) from Misha, will try to move away from Misha…. While J2 are like damned puppies.

I think they want to believe it because Misha is feeding it. It's a fetish, not an actual "Aww, they're so cute together!" It's a desperate "I have to believe they're together because it's an obsession!"

Your ask was not long at all! In fact, I think my answer is longer than the ask, haha! No worries. Feel free to ask me more.

Keep in mind this is just based on observations of panels, a study of their social media, and other aspects. Not an expert. Just a layperson with a history of body language thanks to my upbringing.

I also decided to crop and answer, just to keep you safe.

[freeluigihesbae]

𝓪𝓷𝓰𝓮𝓵𝓼 𝓭𝓸𝓷'𝓽 𝓬𝓸𝓶𝓮 𝓮𝓪𝓼𝔂

summary: a young dean winchester is wandering the woods, hopeless, until he encounter a young angel, whose he name he learns has an enchanting ring: castiel novak

pairing: dean winchester x castiel novak --- destiel!

vibes: angst, depression, implied suicidal thoughts, john is a great dad lol, pain, romantic tension, a very sad dean, a very needed castiel :)

a/n: i will do more parts if enough people are interested. please imagine dawson creek! jensen playing dean and charmed! misha collins as castiel. two young boys but destiel <3

~

"Dean, c'mon, please don't do this. I'm your brother. You can't just push me away like this." Sam is trailing behind Dean, storming out of the door with haste. Sam tries to catch up, throwing his hand out to catch his older brother, but Dean simply shakes out of his grasp before turning to look back the younger one.

"Will you be okay? With Dad and all?" Dean stares hard, tears hiding behind his eyes, but not coming out. Dean controls it, unwilling to let his weakness show in front of his little brother.

Sam is taller than him, but those innocent eyes make him small. Dean will never stop seeing his little brother for the baby he is and was. He remembers those beautiful, almond eyes he was blessed to look into when his mom handed Sam to his arms.

He looks the same, but this time, there's more pain. Fear, knowing Dean would leave.

But what Dean didn't know was how Sam was worried sick for his brother, and whether he could handle himself.

"I'll be fine, Dean. But what about-" The door slams shut and Sam is left alone before he feels a tear run down his face.

"-you?" Sam whispers it out, reaching out to touch the doorknob and feel the dirt left from Dean's fingers, wishing he could hold his brother in his arms.

~

Dean listens intently, taking note of how the branches crunch under his feet and every now and then, poke his face as he walks through the aimless woods.

Aimless. Useless.

That's how he views everything. He's convinced that everything that looks so methodical and put-together is a lie because everything good, he knows, is a result of some screw-up that's already happened.

Which means, if un-luck has struck once, it will always strike again. It's just a matter of when.

Exhaustion threatens to overtake him and Dean feels ashamed. He's supposed to be a hunter, strong and hot-headed in the face of struggle and death, which could be looking him in the eye until he realized it. It was all good, but once he came home, everything shattered. There was always something he didn't do right - his dad always found a reason to insult Dean, call him names and tell him things no man should hear.

Sometimes, Dean didn't want to be seen as a man. Sometimes, he wanted someone to see him as a little boy. The little one who has taken the world atop his shoulder, trying to shield his little brother who is now, inevitably, dragged into the horrors of the world. The little one who didn't understand why his mom was dead. The little one who was cursed to realize that a kind father was only a demon.

His home is his failure and continuously recognizing it felt like someone through a rock at his frail willpower. There were only so many hard truths Dean could handle and everyday, as if staring at the one he was forever stuck to, John, the other things were too much.

Dean loved Sam. He loved his little brother more than himself but he knew that Sam would always be small, young, and more innocent than himself.

Who was going to take care of Dean?

Strangely, there was a sense of being orphan that Dean felt. There was no-one to look down upon him in age or experience to hold his face, stare into his eyes, and say I'm here for you.

There was no temporary gratification that would fill the void John had created. It didn't matter if the girls in school liked him because they would only mean something if his father loved him first. If someone loved him, that meant he'd have to love himself first to understand why.

Even though Dean stared into the mirror, sometimes hours on end, into those green, round eyes which had seen blood and baths of them, he'd failed to see how his skin was still ever-so youthful, glowing with an earnest yearning to be more. To see more. To be loved more. It was all he needed, Dean; a simple hand to hold his glistening skin and press down on his beautiful lips, whispering sweet nothings into his ear.

Dean did not want to be liked. Dean wanted to be loved. He wanted to be someone's soulmate.

That was exactly why Dean refused to believe that heaven was real. How could God let him suffer like this, when the only mistake he'd ever made was being born?

How could God ever let Dean think that was a mistake when he never asked for this life in the first place?

~ Dean slumps over the tree trunk, ignoring its piercing bark as he rests his head down, taking solace in the cool, comforting rain drops which merely feel like mist on his skin. The innocent routine of the forest hugs Dean like a distant lover, faintly reminding him of the basic kindness everyone is entitled to.

Uninterrupted solitude.

Dean runs is fingers over the bark, smiling when he realizes how much less alone he feels. His drag over the long, helpless, and dead tree he's leaning on, feeling much like it now. Sad, helpless, and emotionally dead.

The older Winchester feels old, so impossibly old that he'd stare at someone in shock if they told him he was just 18 and had at least 60 years ahead of him. Dean didn't want all those years if it meant they'd be the same because he knew they'd be the same.

Dean was monotony's poster boy. He was a pin-up model that all the crying souls could look upon and feel less alone. Dean was everything for everyone that mattered to him, but he wanted someone to hold him in his arms and tell him that he, too, was a just a boy. Dean wanted to feel like a little boy for a day, one who was still believing in angels and the ability to fly above and away from the Earth.

Even if it wouldn't happen for real, he wanted to be able to soar through an ocean of stars and feel like he was walking in Heaven.

"I wish angels were real." Dean speaks into the empty, cold expanse of the woods, allowing a sob to slip past his lips when the daunting truth of being alone overtakes his initial happiness. Nature could only extend so much kindness, because afterwards, it would only remain a distant lover, watching with indifference no matter what Dean chose to do.

If Dean chose to die in this moment, Nature would let him do so.

Dean curls into a ball, mirroring a fetus as he felt like the forgotten child he always had been, wondering how agonizing it was to be a forgotten child. He didn't deserve love, he figured, allowing the mud to seep into his hair as he carelessly dug himself into the ground. He did deserve death and that's when he cursed the said God above him for being incompetent.

God couldn't do that one thing right, could he?

"God doesn't have a gender." A voice speaks softly behind Dean, but it startles him deeply, paying no heed as his arm lashed out and he's immediately on his feet, ready to throw himself at whatever creature is about to hurt him.

But to his surprise, he sees a boy. One that looks just like himself: innocent. Except he's a bit short, an awkward yet enrapturing gummy smile that could cure his darkened voids, and kind yet comforting hands that Dean doesn't even realize are on his shoulder until the boy's eyes are closer to his own.

Dean gasps as the boy's fingers touch his hair, wiping away at the dirt that has wormed itself between the long strands. The Winchester is left dumbfounded, confused yet allured by the devastatingly illuminated blue/gray eyes staring at his tainted body.

"I'm so dirty." Dean finds himself cracking the instant his lips part, when what he should be doing is pushing the boy away, asking what he's doing here and perhaps, killing him. The boy could be a demon, a vamp, or worse.

But Dean can't bring himself to ignore the warmth that seems to tingle as the boy's fingers run down his skin, healing the pain littered on every inch of his skin. There's a medicine dripping from those angelic fingers, Dean thinks, as his thoughts of death and despair are slowly replaced by ones of hope and wonder.

"You wished for an angel, did you not?" The boy now stares into his eyes, kind yet beautifully concerned. Dean furrows his eyebrows, wondering it's possible for those words to exist in the same distance. Licking his lips, Dean shakes his head no.

"I don't believe in angels or God." Dean's voice tremors as he quietly basks in the hands resting on his shoulder, unmoving but keeping him grounded. "You wished for an angel, Dean, when you were crying on the tree trunk. You said 'I wish angels were real.'" The boy now tilts his head, staring ever-so slightly up at Dean whose eyes, still letting residual tears fall, are now widened.

"H-How do you know my name?" His lower lip wobbles, scared. Dean is too exhausted to fight, so if this boy is just a demon manipulating the broken, reluctantly flexible lack of will Dean is cursed with in the moment, he doesn't care. He's ready to die.

"I'm an angel, Dean. You don't need to prepare yourself to die, either, because I'm here to save you." The boy's right hand start to wandering, tracing over healing scars Dean still sports on his neck and to Dean's horror, the pain still left over from them slowly dissipates into an unfamiliar nothingness - he feels relief, a feeling so rare Dean moves to pinch himself.

Both hands rush to stop Dean's fingers from moving.

"It's real Dean. You're so beautiful, you know?" The boy now smiles gently, tracing shapes on Dean's cheek before running it over his lips and wiping away old, rusty blood. "What's your n-name?" Dean asks hesitantly, unable to process the sensations and the mere vision standing in front of him.

"Castiel. Castiel Novak. And from now on, I'm your guardian angel." The boy, well, Castiel, takes a deep breath in before stepping away and Dean leans forward, instinctively missing the angel's touch.

"W-Wait-" Dean's plead spills from his lips and Castiel tilts his head to the side. Dean wants to tell him to step closer and crush him in a hug. Dean is desperate to get on his knees and beg Castiel to just crash their lips together.

"H-How do I-I know you're an angel? What i-if you're a demon and you're just here t-to hurt me?" Dean feels light-headed at just the thought of the being in front of him being a lie, like everything else in his life.

"Pull my finger." Castiel holds his finger out and Dean stares down and back up at the angel's face, seemingly immune to Dean's confusion. "What?" Dean asks, confused, still thinking he's in a dream.

"You're not in a dream Dean. So, my finger. Pull it." Castiel nods his head, stepping forward to emphasize his words and Dean feels giddiness flutter throughout his body, a youthful sense of hope making his finger shake as he reaches up to touch it.

"Pl-" "Stop thinking Dean. Let me take care of you." Castiel's voice comes out commanding, making Dean shiver, but there is an undeniable sense of care in its tone, making Dean pull the angel's finger before he can think.

"Why don't we go and talk about this somewhere only we know?" Castiel's smile shines impossibly bright as Dean's vision goes white and the next thing he knows, the world he sees is no longer the one he knew.

~

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~

divider credits: @anitalenia

[nancylou444]

https://www.tumblr.com/nancylou444/777769734968082432/jensen-never-said-the-confession-was-about?source=share

Ah yes, three people (four if you count Misha) amongst the thousands that worked on SPN have mentioned Destiel being a thing... in fandom. (I guess just mentioning it means it's totes canon!)

And of course, they completely misinterpret Jensen's words. He was asked about subtext in the confession being addressed in a reboot and all he said was that the text was clear, meaning, there was nothing to read into it and it would not need to be addressed in a reboot. He never said anything about Dean reciprocating or accepting that Misha's words were romantic. That's just more heller deliberate-misinterpretation propaganda.

And again with the whole Season 13 "widower arc." The only reason Dean was depressed was because he lost three people all at once, his mom, Crowley, and Castiel. When Castiel came back, he was just happy to have a win under their belt. It could have been Crowley or Mary coming back and he would have been just as thrilled. It wasn't because it was specifically Castiel he wanted back.

As for the Cain Collette parallel, well, this topic has been discussed to death and yet still hellers refuse to accept that Sam was Dean's Collette because Sam was the only one who could convince Dean to let go of the first blade.

It's unlikely that explaining all this will get through to another idiot heller... actual reasoning doesn't seem to work on them, but there is some satisfaction in being able to refute every one of their points.

(re)

Rich and Rob are only mentioning it NOW because they know the only ones listening to their crapass podcast are hellers, so they gotta feed the beast.

I really don't remember what Edlund has said about it, but I'm sure it was NOTHING about it being canon.

Misha is THE queerbaiter of all queerbaiters, but hellers refuse to see that.

But yes, if it gets mentioned, then IT MUST BE TOTES CANON. Yet, wincest gets mentioned just as much, but hellers consider THAT 'fanservice'. Heller logic only works for destiel.

Hellers either interpret/decode what Jensen says or they disregard it while calling him a 'homophobe'.

LMAO, if it's not CASS WAS COLETTE THEREFORE DESTIEL IS SOOOOOOO CANON then it's DEAN'S SIREN WAS A GUY THEREFORE HE IS SOOOOOO BI.

Four year plus since the show ended and they are still singing the same off key notes.

Oh yeah, that fool is lucky she hasn't gotten fired yet.

[eisforeidolon]

MISHA IS SUPERNATURAL BIGGEST MISTAKE.

CASTIEL COULD HAVE BEEN AN INTERESTING CHARACTER, IF HE HAD BEEN PLAYED BY A TALENTED AND PROFESSIONAL ACTOR. ESPECIALLY PROFESSIONAL AND SERIOUS.

WE DON'T DESERVE MISHA'S LIES AND QUEERBAITING.

BUT I THINK THAT MISHA ONLY TALENTS ARE LYING TO PEOPLE AND QUEERBAITING HIS DESTIEL FANS FOR MONEY. THIS ARE THE ONLY THINGS HE KNOWS HOW TO DO.

DESTIEL ISN'T CANON. JENSEN SAID THAT SO MANY TIMES.

HE EVEN SAID THAT WHEN HE WAS ASKED ABOUT "THE CONFESSION 'S RESOLUTION".

HE SAID THAT THERE WAS NOTHING TO BE RESOLVED. BECAUSE EVEN IF THE "CONFESSION " WAS ROMANTIC, FOR DEAN NOTHING WOULD CHANGE.

DEAN ISN'T IN LOVE WITH CASTIEL. HE ADDRESSES CASTIEL AS DEAN 'S FRIEND AND ONE OF THE PEOPLE CLOSEST TO HIM. BUT THAT'S IT.

JENSEN NEVER ADDRESSES CASTIEL AS DEAN'S POTENTIAL LOVE INTEREST.

JENSEN (AND JARED) SAID MANY TIMES THAT SUPERNATURAL IS ABOUT SAM AND DEAN AND THEIR DEEP BOND AND UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.

15X20 IS THE PROOF OF THAT LOVE. WINCEST IS MORE CANON THAN DESTIEL WILL EVER BE.

I'M TALKING ABOUT PLATONIC LOVE OF COURSE.

I SHIP WINCEST BUT UNLIKE THE HELLERS I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT IS CANON AND WHAT IS JUST A FANTASY.

15x20 SHOWS TO THE VIEWER THE ESSENCE OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN SAM AND DEAN.

SPOILER FOR 15X20.

SPOILER FOR 15X20

SPOLER FOR 15X20

DEAN DIES, BUT EVEN IN HIS LAST MOMENTS HE COMMITS HIMSELF TO ONLY LOVE SAM. HE SAYS HE LOVES HIM AND THAT IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THEM TOGETHER AGAINST THE WORLD.

" IT'ALWAYS BEEN YOU... AND ME". THAT'S WHAT DEAN SAYS.

THE PAUSE IN THAT PHRASE, THE WAY THEY EMBRACE, THE FOREHEAD TOUCH. EVERYTHING IN THE SCENE IS POINTING TO WHO IS WATCHING THAT DEAN GREATEST LOVE IS SAM.

THIS IS A CONFESSION. PLATONIC AND SO BEAUTIFUL. BETTER THAN ANY OTHER "ROMANTIC" CONFESSION THAT I EVER SEEN OR I EVER HEARD.

END SPOILER FOR 15X20.

OF COUSE DEAN IS ALSO SAM GREATEST LOVE, BUT I WANTED TO GIVE MY ATTENTION TO DEAN 'S BEHAVIOUR TOWARDS SAM VS DEAN BEHAVIOUR TOWARD CASTIEL IN THEIR LAST SCENE TOGETHER. THERE IS NO COMPARISON BETWEEN THE TWO.

WE ALL KNOW THAT SUPERNATURAL WAS ALWAYS ABOUT SAM AND DEAN AND THAT A LOVE STORY CAN BE ABOUT TWO BROTHER WHO SAVED EACH OTHER AND FOUGHT MONSTERS, EVIL CREATURES, DEMONS, ANGELS, THE DEVIL AND GOD FOR STAYING WITH EACH OTHER.

OF COURSE WE CANNOT SAY SAM AND DEAN WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT JARED AND JENSEN. THEIR ACTING, THEIR CHEMISTRY INSIDE THE SHOW AND OUTSIDE TOO, THEIR KINDNESS, IS WHAT MAKES SUPERNATURAL A SHOW THAT CHANGED MY LIFE.

I ALWAYS GET EMOTIONAL ABOUT THIS SHOW. THAT'S WHY I CAN'T STAND PEOPLE LIKE MISHA WHO ALWAYS SAYS SHIT ABOUT THE SHOW AND THE ACTORS ( JARED AND JENSEN)

THANK YOU FOR LISTENING TO MY RANT, SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH, IT ISN'T MY FIRST LANGUAGE, AND I HOPE THAT I DIDN'T ANNOY YOU OR BOTHERED YOU.

MAY LOVE AND KINDNESS ALWAYS FIND YOU.

I have to agree. Also, your English is fine and I definitely understand the need to rant about all this nonsense sometimes, that's why I've got this blog! <3

I do actually feel like Misha was a perfectly serviceable actor way back at the beginning. I even get why they decided to keep him around when he proved popular with the fandom. It was indeed proven a mistake in so, so many ways as time went on, though.

Yeah, first and most egregious is the kind of person Misha turned out to be - or at least turned into after so many years of fans blowing smoke up his ass. A bitter, entitled, ungrateful, lazy backstabber who is perfectly comfortable telling blatantly obvious and contradictory self-serving lies and nonsense. Whether that's about the ship or his relative importance to the show directly, whether that's skeevy sexual comments about Jensen/Dean, whether that's trying to paint Jared as some kind of evil bully that abused him. He keeps proving again and again there is no bar he won't limbo under.

Next is I think his performance on the show and what his continued presence on the show resulted in plot-wise from the writers. He was fine at first when he was just playing a non-human mysterious figure that only appeared now and then and had a major role in the whole structure of the apocalypse. He even had a pretty good arc leading up to the Leviathans. The problem was they kept him around as a "fan favorite" after that when they really didn't have anything for him to do but eat up screen time to give J2 time off. Would we have really gotten so much bad, circular angel politics if there wasn't a need to give Castiel something to do to keep Misha employed? I personally doubt it. Even worse than that, though? As time went on, Misha seemed to recognize that his only relevance was baiting shippers and wasting time and leaned into turning Castiel into the type of character he gets written as in so much bad D/C fanfic - a pathetic mostly human woobie who is completely useless for anything but the projection of bizarre teen romance fantasies that don't make any damn sense. Which culminated in that bizarre ambiguous queerbait he and Bobo the Clown cooked up for Castiel's exit. Which doesn't even touch his later seasons' presumable attempts at acting where his choices for Lucifer!Castiel & AU!Castiel & Empty!Castiel were all ... entirely made up of bad accents and gurning. It wasn't about any of those character's motivations or places in the narrative, it was about the laziest possible attempt to differentiate them from his normal character. Even in latter season's SPN, which IMNSHO had so, so many issues dragging things down, Misha's lack of interest in anything but the size of his paychecks and con earnings played into some of the worst.

Which brings us to D/C and the whole supposedly canon thing. Canon is literally what happened. D/C didn't happen, it's that simple. Castiel rambled some ambiguous bullshit about love and got sucked into the Empty while Dean looked bewildered and sad at him from several feet away. Misha can make up as many stories about what the character was totally thinking and how he was totally coming back in the finale and queerbaiting about what will totes happen in a revival, but not a word of it actually makes what Castiel said "I'm IN love with you". Nor does it magically manifest a reciprocation from Dean. What doesn't happen on screen but actors or TPTB say about the canon is often called Word of God. Which yes, Misha's does not outweigh everything Jensen and Jared and various showrunners have clearly said. Jensen might have gotten less confrontational about shooting it down over the years, but the underlying message hasn't changed. Meanwhile, not only do the details of Misha's stories constantly change, but the general message of his claims has flip flopped so many times. The show was about the brothers, no actually the brothers and the angel! He joked about wincest, no actually he'd never heard of it! He didn't want to say what that scene meant, no actually feel free to attack anyone who says it wasn't a homosexual declaration of love! There's more, but Misha's not worth the effort of looking them up.

As you say, at the end of the day, anyone watching the totality of the show and seeing how it ended? It's very obvious the center of the story was a platonic love story. A complicated one, granted, but Sam and Dean so many times made it very clear that it was them ... and everyone else. Except in the same way that acknowledging that doesn't serve the hellers agenda in demanding a continuation must center their ship so they can finally have visuals to go with their fanfic, acknowledging that doesn't serve Misha's agenda of fleecing them out of money for telling them it will happen for as long as he can get away with it.

[hologramcowboy]

lady, stop! because no one believes anything you say, everyone has already noticed that you are a hateful troll, I don't know if you noticed that no decent blog that is not a fanatic talks to you, in fact they think you are a laughing stock 😂 the only people listening to your litanies are some extreme Jared fans, who happen to be anti Jensen, they just validate your hate arguments because they hate Jensen and not because they like or believe in you

Awwww a little gaslighting and mobbing eh? Are you supposed to be an honorable Jensen fan? 🤣Also, just how dumb do you think other people are? Because, in my experience, people are pretty smart and theyhave the ability to filter information and check their facts. But that requires being in a different state than your current one.

Let me guess, the cool blogs for you are the ones that think Jensen is God, Danneel is dating Misha and other "magical" things? Thank you but I'm not here for their or anyone's approval, for that matter.

I stand confident in my experience and knowledge, whether you are aware of it or not, it actually exists beyond you and will continue to do so.

The reason you pick on Jared fans is because they have a healthy role model and you resent him. My blog is open to everyone and I don't differentiate people by who they like, I differentiate them by their characters. You, for example, have a trashy one and don't fit the energy of this blog but then again, you already knew that. That's why you're so angry, you know very well I make fine points and you just can't stand it.

[dotthings]

A TW anti/Jensen anti pretending they Knew It All Along and Was Always Right over something everyone knew already because duh, self evident industry conditions, while trying to fling more sh*t on the fans who actually do understand what's going on and have been tracking things accurately all along, all while gloating and smirking over TW being put on pause because they don't gaf about anything except Sam/Jared being on their screen sure is a Look for someone who attempts to front as positive and an "spn fan." And the only one who listens to that one...would be anti-Misha and anti-Jensen bitter brosonlies. Who are antis. They aren't fans of spn or the spn universe.

[cecilysass]

I have a kid who is an obsessive Supernatural fan who forced me to watch many, many episodes. So I’ve thought a lot about that show as an heir to XF.

To me it’s a pretty obvious line to draw. For one, Supernatural filmed in Vancouver, had Kim Manners, had Mitch Pileggi, had the Unremarkable House, had lots of other common cast/crew, etc. There were XF references, too.

But also just because it was a show about two protagonists who traveled all over the U.S. staying in crappy motels, investigating supernatural cases, sacrificing personal life for the calling. It had mytharc plot over seasons as well as MOTW episodes. Plus, the angsty protagonists’ deep-seated psychological motive is trying to right a childhood trauma brought about by otherworldly causes.

The two main characters (Sam and Dean Winchester, for those who never watched) are brothers, and they’re definitely different from Mulder and Scully. There is no believer / skeptic dichotomy. They’re younger, more Midwestern, more overtly traditionally masculine than Mulder (especially in early seasons), not law enforcement (although they actually impersonate FBI agents constantly). They wear flannel and listen to classic rock. They make a big deal of being folksy regular people and having common sense (especially Dean).

I always troll my kid by saying the show was probably supposed to originally be some 2000s Bush administration version of the XF: “Give me Mulder and Scully, but make it so that they’re not coastal elite smarty pants liberals, and instead a pair of dumb good-looking bros with weapons from the heartland that you want to have a beer with.”

That’s an overstatement. I don’t think that’s really fair to the show, or at least not fair to Supernatural the way it evolved over its zillion seasons. They DEFINITELY started to complicate masculinity on Supernatural. Their most ardent fans got real young and real interested in queer relationships. I won’t even get into all this. There are like forty million Supernatural Tumblrs.

But Supernatural actually did have kind of the same problem / strength of XF in that it really depended on its two main characters. There was very little ensemble. There WERE secondary characters. (Very notably Misha Collins as Castiel, who was famously shipped with Dean. Destiel remains the top AO3 ship of all time to this day, I believe). But Castiel was only semi-regularly on the show, kind of like the Gunmen on XF.

The show also had regular antagonists (like Crowley, played by XF alum Mark Sheppard). But the show was kind of notorious with fans for killing off Sam and Dean’s allies, especially female characters. It always ended up being Sam and Dean alone again.

One effect of Mulder and Scully being the only main characters on their show was that it made the ship seem sort of inevitable. It made it seem like it was those two characters versus the world, which is inherently kind of romantic. You might THINK that the two protagonists of Supernatural being brothers would rule this out, but you would be wrong. That ship name, if you don’t know, is Wincest (because the brothers’ last name is Winchester). I believe that Wincest is the second biggest ship after Destiel. So yeah, that’s a thing, even when the show was definitely not trying for it. Two main characters with scant supporting cast are gonna be shipped come what may.

Maybe it’s obvious, but I don’t love Supernatural like I do XF. Supernatural has some strengths for sure. But in the end it’s about the smartypants protagonists and the very specific dynamic between them. I love nerdy Mulder and Scully, and I especially love their intellectual sparring, which was written by people who cared about the substance of what they were saying, and not just by people who wanted “banter.”

Second, the acting was top shelf—especially the acting together. Yes, OP, I completely agree, the interplay of GA and DD off of one another? Heart-stopping and enthralling. No shade on Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki, who were indeed great on Supernatural … but I’d watch GA and DD do insurance commercials together. It’s a cliche to talk about their chemistry, but there really was something in their scenes.

Finally, yeah, listen, I am emotionally hooked by MSR, and I just don’t think I could go down the Wincest road.

Sorry for the essay, OP. I’m just a really bad ranter, and you unleashed some thoughts I guess lol.

what's really insane about the x-files is that nearly every show that's somewhat followed its formula (bones, lucifer, castle, etc) keeps some amalgamation of mulder and scully as its main couple, but they feel the need to supplement that main couple with an ensemble cast that are in nearly every episode. mulder and scully are pretty much it for the x-files. of course there's skinner and the gunmen, but they don't appear even in a majority of the episodes (and certainly not in a major way). there's probably a lot one could say about why, but i think the reason it works is because scully and mulder are so rich with characterization. for me, they're the closest movie/tv gets to real people, even if their connection to each other is beyond what any of us could have in a normal relationship. they're so multi-faceted, so complex, so contradictory. like, mulder's incredibly empathetic but can be a jerk. scully's by the book but she'll be held in contempt of congress for what matters. even something like scully's relationship with her father is so complicated in a way that it churns out episodes like never again or beyond the sea. the way david duchovny and gillian anderson act against each other on screen is heart-stopping, enthralling. even when they're a trainwreck, you can't look away. it's just so interesting to me how, even when shows are blatantly pulling from the x-files (and are good in their own way!) they're too afraid to really do the x-files. y'know?

[cooloddball]

Here is my break down of the j2 afternoon panel at Dallascon 2022. It is only about Jensen and Misha.

A fan asks a question on behalf of their sister and mentions that the sister loves j2 but loves Jared more and Jensen just randomly says, "Hey Misha, I get that too." Umm Jensen are you okay? Like why would he randomly say that? Was Misha watching him? Was he telling Misha 'see not everyone likes me either so you are not alone' or???? I just thought that it was peculiar to just say that out of the blue.

The next one is when a fan asks that throughout the series a few of the cast members got to drive baby but Cas never got the chance and Jensen says how they don't let Misha operate any machines and so on and so forth and then Jared goes on a rant about how Jensen told him about the "new guy" and you can see Jensen's demeanor changes because he doesn't know what the ranting moose might say in front of his parents. The moment Jared says "then I was like how's the new guy?" Jensen's eyes become so shifty they are moving a mile a second and it reminded me of that time he was asked about the photos of him and Misha and he got really scared and his eyes got shifty until the fan clarified it was about the sunset photos or that other time he was asked about the rug burn on his chin which we later learned that was caused by "fight training" with Misha and Jared. Like he only gets like this when he's been caught unaware especially when it comes to Misha. Okay I know there are probably other times like that but I can't think of any more at the moment. I wish I could gif this moment because the way he looks around like he has been caught with his pants down is just so funny to me. Poor guy that's the problem with having a friend with no control of what they say. They'll say just about anything. Pray for Jensen and his so not subtle crush on Misha circa 2008-day 1. Also, someone explain to me why 13 years later they are still talking about the day Jensen met Misha, like what was so different from meeting anyone else, Jensen tell us more.

Anyway, Jared continues on his rant and mentions that Misha just stood there like children of the corn and Jensen doesn't laugh when everyone else is laughing. He even leans back in his seat to listen to this ranting moose talk about Misha and he just looks stoic like he doesn't want to give away too much of what he's feeling. He was probably internally screaming "please shut up"

And finally, when Jensen talks about the photo ops it's just so funny to me like he is so excited when he talks about Misha. And to make it even funnier it's the way Jared looks at him confused like "oh you are still talking about Misha?" when Jensen starts talking about the cockles photo ops and the way he says it reached a point and they were like "yeah sure let's do it" and he leans back so comfortably in his seat with his whole body relaxed and a smirk on his face. That's the look of a man who enjoyed doing it.

That's about it.

[eisforeidolon]

Hellers are twisting Jensen's words around because they don't like what he said,

"He doesn't think Cas's confession is something that needs to be solved. Cas said what he needed to say. It was a long time coming, it was heartfelt and beautiful. But there's nothing to solve. Dean took it in and then lost one of his closest allie and friend. The acceptance of that happened when Dean sat on the floor. He lost one of his brothers in arms and one of his closest people. When they come back, it just understood."

First, a sampling of posts with screenshots and links of some of the creative reinterpretations they're already self-soothing with, for context: [X][X][X]

It's bad enough now, because we already knew they were obsessed with cherry-picking things completely out of context and twisting themselves in knots to insist D/C, a totally real most epic romance ever was obviously happening off-screen the whole time. Because that's totally how storytelling works!🙄 So why wouldn't they insist Jensen saying Castiel's dying blather doesn't need a resolution means Dean already turned into the YA romance protagonist from their fanfic realized he was totes in lurve with the angel and reciprocated offscreen! See, no resolution needed! The thing is, though, I believe Purcon is one that has a stricter video policy so I expect this to end up even more broken-telephoned in a couple of months when there's no video to dispute whatever they're making up by that point, which I expect to be pretty wild.

What Jensen reportedly said fits exactly into what Castiel actually said in Misha & Beren's tapdancing on the line of legit queerbaiting the audience Castiel's goodbye speech. The whole climactic reason the Empty could come take the angel away was because he realized that just ~*feeling feelings*~, without having anything come of it, was enough. Regardless of whether you interpret those feelings as romantic love or the kind of all-encompassing self-sacrificing love the Winchesters have, feeling that way about somebody is happiness in itself (even if they don't feel that way about you). So yeah, whatever kind of love you read that to mean? There's nothing to inherently resolve there. Castiel put his feelings out in the universe, and Dean listened and moved on with his life. The thing that was "a long time coming" was Castiel's resolving his struggles as an angel living among humans trying to understand emotions and friendship. It's "clear text" that Castiel said I love you (whatever kind of love you interpret that to be).

Hellers are the only ones who desperately need there to have to be a resolution to that scene, because the only interpretation in which a followup would be necessary? Would be if Castiel's speech was romantic AND Dean also had romantic feelings. They can pretend they suddenly don't understand what a resolution is or that one magically (like the entire rest of their supposedly canon ship) happened off-screen so it'll be already happening in the revival as much as they want. It doesn't change what the scene actually was or what Jensen actually said, any more than the rest of their waffle ever has. They're just happily lying to themselves and each other all over again, setting themselves back up for more eternal disappointment. It's like a Peanuts comic strip, except they are both Charlie and Lucy with the show and creators as the football.

They want to crow about Jensen not explicitly saying the scene wasn't about romantic love somehow being him changing his mind (again), but that's absurd. He knows some people interpret Castiel's feelings as romantic and are very invested in the angel being a queer character. Putting aside whether what's in the text deserves that, going out of his way to tell them they're wrong about someone else's character? Would be a really bad look given the sensitivity of the topic. And he doesn't need to do it anyway, because whatever Castiel's ~*feelings*~ are, it says nothing about what Dean does or doesn't feel. Which he directly says is that Dean lost "one of his closest allies" "one of his best friends" "a brother in arms" "one of the closest people to him". It's pretty clear - if you don't tie yourself in knots pretending he's sending you secret signals about what he REALLY means if you only listen to half the words he said.

[whengeorgiawentblue]

Re: previous nonJ2 fan Anon - of course they’re right! Everyone knows something only happened if there’s a picture posted online, so if there are no pictures of Jensen and Misha together after a con or times in between, it must not have happened, right? 😂

The thing is, there are pictures, at least one I recall, that proves that at least after one jibcon jensen and misha stayed for 2-3 days in Rome when everybody else left:

The date says March 5th 2017, I don't know when the previous jibcon ended, can anyone confirm if this picture was taken days after the con? Anyway, as far as I know this picture was taken 2-3 days later, and the fan spotted Jensen and Misha, only the 2 of them at the airport.

In between: no fan reports, but Jensen himself confirmed he and Misha went to visit the Vatican and had a private mass. Only the 2 of them.

Before: I'm not sure about this one but I heard that at Honcon Jensen didn't need to travel to Hawaii yet (his panel was like 1 or 2 days later) and yet he came in advance "for no reasons"(lol), and then fans spotted him with Misha in a restaurant. Only the 2 of them.

So anon, according to your own logic... yes, it happened, and several times.

And I'm going to bring this back:

This happened after the EW photoshoot. Jensen and Misha stayed a few days more in Los Angeles and visited their friend. Only the 2 of them together. No Jared in sight, who was also at the EW photoshoot but apparently he left right after finshing.

But the most striking thing about this is the fact that they were in a hospital, with hundreds of visitors, medical staff and patients, and yet nobody noticed them or at least didn't bother them to take pictures. This further confirms they are private enough to be in public spaces and not to be seen or bothered by fans.

Oh one last thing: I know this happened at a con (dallascon) but it's still very telling

Idk when these pictures were taken, but it wasn't during their scheduled con duties. They took a bit of their sparse free time that weekend and let Chris (one of CE's official photographers) to take these photos. 2 separate pics, but you can obviously see it was at the same place and same time. Once again, only the 2 of them together.

If there are more examples, everyone is welcome to make their contribution. These are the ones I recall.

Anon, you said you are not a J2 fan. Maybe you are right, but I suspect you are one of those "jensen's fans" who deny his friendship with Misha.

Listen, you can deny they are lovers (after all, it's just tinhatting), but you can't deny they are very good friends, in and out of work. If you consider yourself a fan of Jensen, then be a real fan, that's it, love Jensen at his whole, including his friendship with Misha, because otherwise you are just a fake fan of Jensen, and you are hating on the same people Jensen loves to the bones.

[wigglebox]

Wiggle, I am sad to hear you can't seem to be able to extend me the same good faith you so easily extend to Jensen.

I don't believe you had asked it in good faith based purely on the fact that you could have asked this on Saturday with both of them up there, Misha and Jensen, since it concerned both of their characters. Instead, you asked about Misha's 50th birthday.

You said, before you asked your Sunday question:

"I'm getting y'all some long overdue answers!"

What answers to what questions? How is the 15x18 going to be "resolved"? You weren't the first person to ask that kind of question or something similar. And, even if you were, why do you think this man is going to give you a play-by-play in terms of how this is going to be "resolved"? That is an answer that would come by way of a continuation, not by way of a solo Jackles panel in Germany on a Sunday afternoon.

I am also not taking your question in good faith owing to your response. You being disappointed in the answer is understandable, you're not the only one and I know others who also weren't impressed by the answer.

However, you took it further than that. You said things like this:

And then you decided to reblog someone's positive take on it, two of them actually, with these tags:

Instead of being part of the discussion, you're insulting others and coming across as someone who is "butthurt" over the fact others aren't sharing in your interpretation of his answer. Again, others haven't been impressed by it, but are engaging in a conversation or just chatting amongst themselves. They aren't throwing insults or poking at people in a mean-spirited way on others positive posts.

The fact that his panels are full of people who are like that & sneer at destiel questions is his fault and his fault alone. As long as he keeps playing safe and won't express any concrete opinions it will remain that way.

Why is it his fault that he plays a character that is pulled in every which way in the fandom and has fans on all sides? Ignoring the continuation stuff for a moment, why is it his fault he has fans? He can't go row by row, seat by seat and eject every J2er, Wincesty, or GenFan out of there.

And sneer at what Destiel questions? Other than yours, there weren't any. He doesn't go through everyone in the line one by one to make sure they are Destiel questions. And he did give a Destiel answer, even if you refuse to see it that way because he didn't word it exactly how you wanted it to.

Also, again, the fact that he isn't going to give you a play by play up on stage on anything they're brainstorming for the continuation. It's never been like that, won't ever be like that. Idk if you watched a lot when the show was on air but they always side stepped.

He also can't do speculative stuff because, again, that's not what he does, and because his character didn't get a chance to speak his truth, he's not going to speak in full detail until it can play out in the show. Otherwise he's just spouting FanFiction and if the continuation doesn't turn out how he said it would on stage, like how some of y'all want him to, then you'll be angry all over again.

You are right, I do not understand who he is as a person because he never expressed any opinions whatsoever. He's always ambiguous.

Now this is just lazy, in my opinion, I'm sorry. He does express opinions, some of y'all just don't take the time to listen to what he's saying. But also, during which it may sound like he's "fence sitting" please remember he's an actor, whose job is usually not interacting with fandom like this. Over the course of the last decade+ I've been at least a fan of his, I've come to understand that to him, he knows his job is to act. He'll talk about his acting choices and how certain scenes felt to him but he's not going to talk about something that he couldn't act out yet.

His job, at least this is how I've come to understand him and how he views his role, is to convey the level of relationship Dean and Cas had, not tell you how you should feel about it or how to interpret it.

That's why he'd give leeway to folks who go, 'Well, I just see it as a brother relationship'. Is it? No, but that's feedback to him as an actor in terms of how well he's doing his job. He also isn't going to tell people how to think or how to feel about something. That's not his line of business. It's to act and convince. And because out of the three of them, he's the only one with fans on two opposite sides of the fandom, and now, a lot of gen fans came in from The Boys, he's really not going to make someone feel bad for maybe not interpreting his acting the way he was trying to make it come across. If anything that means he'll just double down more while acting.

It's easier for Misha and, in some ways, Jared to do that because of how their characters serve the narrative, but Dean is different, and Jensen is different. Please accept that!

If anything I was shocked to hear his answer and apparently how nothing would need to be addressed.

The fact that after a day at this point, this is still how you interpret his answer, that's fine, but just know many, many others don't share that interpretation, and calling them Jensen apologists or having terminal jackles disease doesn't help convince us to your point of view.

I think it's desperate to cling to a man who is never going to give you the one thing you want. I think we all deserve to support actors who support us back! Who don't shy away from questions so they won't upset some assholes in the audience. I think we all should start respecting ourselves more.

Again I find it fascinating you command respect but don't give it to others in fandom, or the actors in this particular instance.

We're lucky as a fandom that we have the access we do to the actors. This is not a normal thing, just wanted to sneak that in there.

I'm not asking you to shy away from asking hard questions but I do wish folks like you who ask these questions understand what it is exactly you're asking, the situation in which you find yourself asking, and who you're asking it to and what you really expect the answer to be.

Again, respect is earned. And a lot of people respected Jackles for that answer and I"m sorry he couldn't give you what he was looking for but you demonizing him in this sense of moral high ground over something that, let's be real, he was never going to answer how you wanted, is very very odd.

He didn't do a single thing wrong. And you didn't either by asking that question. It's your response to the responses to the response that is making us scratch our heads.

Instead of partaking in the discussion, your question prompted, you're insulting people for using their brains to think about what this man is trying to say.

people with terminal jackles disease: i promise there are better men to stan out there. several of them are even members of the spn cast.

[aoitrinity]

Why Do I Have to Feel Like a Fucking Conspiracy Theorist -- OR -- How I Find a Semblance of Peace on Sunday Night

I’m also going to start this out with a GIANT DISCLAIMER.

I am about to theorize about what may have happened to the SPN finale. I have absolutely no insider knowledge. I am merely speculating here based on the panels and a bunch of Twitter and Tumblr posts that I have been reading over the last few days. If you are not in a good place to read such things, TURN BACK PLEASE. Go take care of yourself and your mental health. You and your feelings are valid and deserve to be handled gently right now.

Additionally, if you are here to give me shit for being unhappy with the ending, please walk away as well. I am here to reach out and share my feelings with people who might be struggling to make sense of something that upset some of us in very deep-seated ways. I am not here to bother you or critique you or tell you that you’re lesser because you liked the ending. If you felt it was good, then go enjoy it.

Long-ass post beneath the cut, everyone.

Alrighty folks...I debated whether or not to do this because I have been spiraling down the hell that is the SPN finale since Thursday. The travesty of what happened to our show--to this beloved show that seemed to have been so perfectly and precisely written for at least four years that it had basically already paved its own tarmac on which to land its plane and we all thought we knew exactly what we were going to get. And then we didn’t. We had a nigh Cas-less and entirely Eileen-less ending. We had no goodbye between Cas and Jack. We had Dean dying young after finally finding his freedom, only to ascend to heaven with no one but Bobby. We had the weird, weird, weird incest-y death scene. We had the bridge crane shot thing because...sure. You do you, Robert Singer.

It was so terrible, so truly awful, and I couldn’t seem to square any of it with anything we had known going in. I tossed and turned and cried and didn’t eat or sleep all weekend. I spent hours just reloading tumblr and twitter, going to the Misha panel, reading and reading and listening and trying to figure out what the fucking hell is going on because I needed to know exactly where to direct my anger. And after a fuckton of talking with @winchester-reload, I think we have at least a very plausible theory about what happened here--I’m laying it out below as much for my own peace of mind as anything else, because otherwise all of these thoughts are going to continue to spin around in my head for weeks and I won’t be able to do jack shit.

Now to start off, unfortunately I do think Dean was slated to die from the beginning of this season. I don’t know WHY they thought that was the best way to go, and I wish they had listened to Jensen on this one. Part of me wonders if it was an order from on high based on the discussion between Becky and Chuck earlier this season--the writers knew it wasn’t a great choice, but they were trying to signal to us that we should feel free to write our own endings to the story because they’d be better (I can wax poetic on the signs of why many of the writers probably wanted Dean to live, but that’s another post). I’m not defending that choice by any means, just laying it out there that I think they didn’t necessarily all want to kill Dean like they did.

However, what I THINK I can explain now is what happened with Misha and why we got so jerked around with Cas’s story. Consider what we know (I can’t immediately source all of it, but I did my best):

At the end of episode 15x19, Lucifer has been returned to the Empty after being killed AGAIN. He talks with Cas. Maybe harasses him a bit about Dean, idk. But then...Jack shows up. New God Jack. And he picks up Cas and pulls him out of the Empty, leaving Lucifer behind, because seriously. Fuck that guy (also leaving behind his abusive father is character growth for Jack, so yay for that).

-Misha was contracted to film 15 episodes this season. He was only in 14.

-Misha told Michael Sheen he had to go back to film 1.5 episodes after the shutdown in March. (Starts at 6:13)

-Misha was in Vancouver during filming of the finale.

-Mark P said at Darklight Con that the last scene he filmed was with Alex and Misha (and Mark P was only in episode 19).

-Misha implied that he was present for various filming moments, including Dean’s death (start at 35:15), and said that it felt like a “mini-reunion.”

-Various sources have mentioned that Jimmy Novak was supposed to be in the finale.

-After episode 18, Stands tweeted a fan who was angered and hurt by Cas's death that they could talk about the “bury the gays” issue after the finale aired.

-In episode 19 we know there were takes of the parking lot scene where the only thing fans observing could hear was Dean yelling “CAS” at Chuck (fuck I can’t find this one right now, but it’s definitely out there)

-Also in episode 19, we had a very strange, awkward montage at the end of the episode.

-In episode 20, we know there were a FUCKTON of missing scenes

-We also had no opening montage, but three other separate montages.

-Carry on My Wayward Son was played TWICE, back-to-back at the end of the episode.

-Episode 20 was shorter than normal and had surprisingly little dialogue. The pacing was VERY strange.

-The cast and crew has been almost completely silent about the finale since it came out. When they have spoken, it has been with an awkward excuse of “Uh...COVID?”

-Samantha Ferris has specifically noted that, despite the Harvelle’s being back in play and a big heaven reunion having been planned pre-COVID, neither she nor Chad Lindberg received any such invitation to return.

-Cas and Dean POP Funko figures were pictured together in a replica of Harvelle’s in 15x04.

NOW with all of this in mind (and I’m probably missing some stuff too because there is so much--feel free to add on to that list), please bear with me because here is what I think we were SUPPOSED to get POST-COVID (after it was determined that the reunion couldn’t happen because of the virus):

In episode 20, we start with our NORMAL OPENING MONTAGE, like always. It traces everything that happened during the season. We are reminded of Cas. The confession. Rowena. Eileen. Jack. Billie, God, the Empty, all of it. 

Things then follow along in the episode where they did up until Dean dies and wakes up in heaven. After his conversation with Bobby, he drives off to find Cas (who, in the script, was listed as “Jimmy Novak” in order to protect against script leaks--who wouldn’t want to do their best to avoid spoilers about the finale with the wrapping of a fifteen-year show?). He does indeed find Cas. We get Dean’s end of the confession. Hell, maybe we even get a kiss. And then Dean sets up his new heaven home in the recreated Harvelle’s. Maybe Cas even fucking moves in. 

Years pass. We get Sam having his life on Earth (still can’t explain why they cut Eileen and couldn’t even have Sam signing vaguely to the blurry brunette in the background; if anyone wants to take that on, go for it). Eventually, Cas tells Dean that it’s almost Sam’s time. Dean takes Baby and goes to meet Sam at the bridge. The cover of Carry on My Wayward Son plays during this much shorter sequence. End of episode.

But that’s not what we got. Instead, much of what I just wrote about was excised from the episode. The remnants were stitched together after shooting had been wrapped. Filler was added in the form of montages and long, unnecessary extra shots to get the episode to something approaching a reasonable length. 

But why? Why would they spend all that time and money and quarantining on Misha, only to almost completely cut him out of the finale? I struggled with why the fuck the CW would want this mammoth show to go down as the greatest queerbait in TV history when they had the chance to do something truly beautiful and monumental with it? It couldn’t just be sheer homophobia, right? Well, I think that factored into it, my friends, but here is where my head is at right now.

It was about cold, hard cash.

Now I could be wrong, but this is what I’m thinking at the moment: Supernatural is going off of the air. Supernatural, the CW’s cash cow for fifteen years. Sure there is still money to be made on blu-rays and merchandise and cons...but they need people watching their shows. They need that sweet advertising revenue. And you know what show they have about to premiere? A show that could, potentially, bring with it a chunk of that SPN revenue?

Walker.

And if any of you know anything about the original Walker Texas Ranger, you know that the show was predominantly a show about a very heterosexual white man being very excessively heterosexual. And for SOME REASON over the years, many of the execs at the CW still seem to think that this show, Supernatural, is really attractive to a lot of middle-American white men...whom they desperately want to watch this new show with this guy from Supernatural that they already know.

Now here’s where COVID fucked us. I think Destiel was greenlit by TPTB, at least in SOME form, before COVID. But then the pandemic happened, and they panicked. They got the cut of the last two episodes and watched them in their original, probably queer form. And then, the execs at CW looked at the economy. They looked at their cash cow, about to make its journey to the great beyond. And they looked at this new little calf Walker that they were so desperately worried about. And they made a choice.

They decided that it would be too risky to take the step with Destiel. They were worried about frightening off their ever-so-valuable hetero male demographic with the possibility that a traditionally masculine man in his 40s could be in love with another man in an overt way. It was homophobia mixed with greed, spun up by fear for their revenues because of COVID.

So they called in Singer, possibly Dabb, although I wouldn’t be surprised if they went straight to Singer. They told them that Destiel had to go: executive orders. And the only way to make it go in a way that removed any trace of what had been there was to rewrite what happened to Cas and cut him out from the last two episodes entirely. It was too late to reshoot anything. They had to just cut and stitch and fill with bullshit montages. 

They removed the scene at the end of 19, probably because Cas and Lucifer discussed Dean. All that was left of Misha there was his voice on that fake phone call. They may have cut other things too, but I would bet my life that they cut a scene from the end of the episode and replaced it with that very strange montage. Then they moved onto 20. They cut out every scene with Cas. And left in only two platonic mentions of him, neither made by Dean. They tried to imply that Cas might show up in Dean’s heaven at some point, but that was as far as the editors could go in the time they had. They filled in with montages, awkwardly long shots, anything they could do to fill all of those missing scenes.

And they even had to take the opening montage, because literally everything in it pointed to Cas being there at the end of it all. They wouldn’t be able to leave out his scenes, they were too critical to the season. They couldn’t cut his confession without raising eyebrows. So they cut the whole thing and moved “Carry On My Wayward Son” to one of the newly-added driving montages at the end. Which is why we awkwardly had both songs play back-to-back--again, such a strange choice unless they were out of options and couldn’t exactly buy rights to a new track or compose anything else.

And so we were left with the shadow of the finale that we deserved, that Cas and Dean deserved. We were left without resolution or happiness or words. Bobo told us the most important thing about happiness is just “saying it” and our characters were silenced without anyone ever knowing the truth.

I think the writers might have known and been given the new party line that “Misha never filmed, he couldn’t, sorry, it was COVID, no one’s fault!” But I don’t think most of the cast even knew it had happened until they watched the finale on Thursday with us (though they might have been confused why the bit from 15x19 was sliced, they could reasonably have assumed it was a time thing and also BL episodes don’t make sense anyway). Why do I say that?

Well, first of all, Misha started sending out a bunch of excited texts to fans with some old BTS pictures about an hour before the show started airing on EST. He also wanted his children to see the episode, his YOUNG children. Why would he show them such a traumatic episode if their Dad wasn’t in it? What if it was because he wanted them to witness what was going to be a monumental moment in queer television history that their DAD got to be a part of? And then that was all dashed.

Which is why I think the cast and crew went almost completely radio silent the next day. I don’t think they knew. And based on how they have been acting on social media since then, I think many of them are absolutely furious, but they have been silenced because of NDAs, because they want to find work again in a cutthroat industry, because they don’t want to bring down the hellfire of Warner Brothers Entertainment upon themselves. So the most we have gotten is a little acknowledgement from the MERCHANDISING COMPANY trying to validate our pain (god bless Shirts, she is a LIFESAVER) and a response to my salty tweet about keeping good stuff in the closet from Adam Williams (the VFX coordinator) that seemed to acknowledge the validity of my complaint.

Then there was a scramble behind the scenes, I would bet my life. Talking points were fed to the boys who had panels today, to CE, to all the cast and crew:

Toe the party line. Misha never filmed. This was always about COVID. Do not mention Destiel. Do not mention Dean’s feelings for Cas. Do not promote the Castiel Project or anything that validates the idea that this was anything less than a superb ending.

And that is why we have heard so little from the cast on this front, and what we have heard has been muddled and contradictory. That is why the writers are saying nothing. That is why we have been left adrift.

Now before I close this out, I do want to say that I really, genuinely do not think this was on the writers at all. I feel like they tried to give us the best ending that they could, in a writers room that we know is notorious for splitting along party lines about the overall story (BL and Singer, who have always been about the brothers and their man-pain vs. Dabb and the rest who always seemed to want more for them and for Cas). I think they did everything in their power to at least end with Dean and Cas happy together. If they could give us nothing else, they wanted to give us that. And then the network took it from them. From us. From everyone.

For the sake of fucking money. 

And the WORST PART OF IT ALL, for me, is that in the wake of this disaster, the fans have been left to try and figure out what happened. We have had to wade through a mire of conflicting information in the midst of all of our collective anger and grief over this garbage ending of a show many of us have loved and even relied on for YEARS, all the while wondering if we’re just fucking crazy, if we have all fallen collectively into the hole of conspiracy theories. That hurts ESPECIALLY badly because we have taken so many hits over the years from other groups on social media saying we were crazy for seeing things that weren’t there (especially Destiel), for writing meta and analyzing tropes and believing the evidence of our eyes and ears. The network has made us relive that entire nightmare WHILE processing our grief for a show we wanted so badly to celebrate and which instead we now have to mourn.

So again guys, I cannot prove that this is exactly what happened at all; this is simply my idea of what may have happened. But right now, it’s the most sense I can make from this mess, and to be honest, the act of typing it out has helped me enormously in my processing of it all. I feel like I can see more clearly, like I know where to target my outrage and where to direct empathy. I feel like just fucking maybe, I might be able to do my job tomorrow without bursting into tears at random moments. 

I really hope that this post has helped some of you to, in some small way, process this too. We get through this the way that Misha told us at his panel this morning, the way the writers have told us to do all season long...we throw out the story God gave us and we make it better. We write our characters the happy endings they deserve. 

We save them.

One last thing--if you have not already, please consider channeling your rage into a donation to one of the five causes our fandom has put together to pay tribute to our beloved show and to mourn the ending it should have had:

-The Castiel Project

-Dean Winchester is Love

-Sam Winchester Project

-The National Association of the Deaf

-The Jack Kline Project

[hintsofhoney]

alright, *cracks fingers*. so. I’ve written up a transcript just to lay it all out for myself and get the most important parts. listen, everyone. for all intents and purposes and legal reasons, THIS WAS A DREAM. alright? I dreamt this. and he is literally the nicest human being ever so I don’t want to just like... put our whole convo out there like that, but I think he said some stuff that was important for people to hear so... here we go

my *dreamt* zoom call with thee crowley below the cut

The first five minutes (of my dream) was just a bunch of introduction stuff and talking about my favorite Supernatural seasons which eventually led to him telling me how they filmed the Season 8 finale (which they did over the span of three days, and in between takes the crew members were like dead silent, as to keep the moment going, which Mark thought was really cool. Said it was one of his favorite things they did on Supernatural.) Anyways, he eventually asked me if I had any questions, so, I’ll start there.

MARK: So, do you have any questions you want to ask me about aaaaaannyyyythingggg? 

ME: Um, I guess the number one thing I wanna know… um, so, I know you can’t speak for Dean and I don’t want to talk about Dean because you’re not Jensen, but, there’s like a lot of questions I guess or subtext or whatever concerning Dean’s sexuality and what not, but I want to know about demon Dean and Crowley’s relationship and if there was, I don’t know, anything like, any implied –

MARK: Well I think – I think you’re talking about… there’s a massive difference between sex and love. There’s a massive difference between, um, well, they can intertwine perfectly, that’s not the issue, but I mean you would believe with all the things that Crowley did for the Winchesters, that he was – that he very much loved Sam and Dean or loved who they are or what they are. To reduce it to, you know, a crush, or to something that – I mean, I don’t know, I think Crowley is very probably pansexual more than anything else; I don’t think anything phased him. I think, that’s why the whole stuff with Lucifer and licking the floor was kind of really stupidly boring for me because Crowley did weirder and crazier things on his own. I mean, it became this joke of trying to humiliate somebody who can’t be humiliated. There’s nothing you can humiliate Crowley with. So, that never sort of made sense, that was just a sort of writer’s glitch of thinking, “oooh, this would be funny to knock him down into subservience” and that’s what he does on a Wednesday, I mean it’s like the most un-inspiring thing. I think so much is projected onto the relationship between, certainly the four main characters, um, and, you know, look, getting comfortable with one’s sexuality and one’s identity is a massively complicated things, and if you want to live vicariously through what you believe people’s identity is and you can relate to that, great!  Who cares? I mean, can I be absolutely honest? Apart from – what I do care about, you know, don’t ever take this and piece me or misquote it, because it’s very, very specific – um, somebody stopping somebody being able to express their own identity or whatever is an issue for me. That will always be an issue for me. Um, we should all be treated equally, and we all have the rights to believe and follow those things that we wish to follow, but to project relationships onto characters is an odd thing to do. I mean, it’s wishful thinking in a lot of ways, I mean, actually it’s quite… it’s quite reasonable because in the past if you think about it, if you ask your parents or anyone else, the only way sexuality was used was to, uh, literally demonize somebody. It was only ever used to say somebody was bad because this who they’re in love with. You know, that’s, that’s the thing. And it’s a massive change in the world that we’re moving towards, I should say, uh – a lack of consequence for who one loves, apart from the obvious consequences of human nature. You know, political consequences for who one loves – I’ve just watched Pete Butteigieg being, you know, sitting in congress with his husband there with him; that’s the first time that’s ever happened in United States congress and I’m so proud of that. Not just because the man is gay and happily married – that’s not even the issue for me, it’s because he’s the best man for the job and one of the smartest people on the planet. You know, it’s like using sexual templates, as they were, or gender templates as they are, or orientation templates as they are, we always use to disclude people from things. They were always used to discriminate. You know, labeling somebody was a way of discrimination. And where as labels are very important, to ones self, and they’re very important politically and they’re very important socio-economically and they’re very important in all those aspects, I yearn for a time when nobody gives a damn. I really do. But I mean, we have to go through so much to get there. I mean, let’s be honest, you can’t, you know, right the wrongs of hundreds of years of oppression in 20 minutes by saying, “let’s all move forward”. It just doesn’t work that way, it never has. But there’s a responsibility there, that if you’re going to represent, that you represent all. That you don’t just represent you. So, one has to be careful with a television program or, or, you know, Misha or myself, or, not speaking for the boys, but just generally, um, you have to be careful that what you advocate is inclusive, not disinclusive. Not excluding people... and it’s so hard to frame these conversations, that they’re equitable, it’s so hard to do that. And so, you know, we spend years pointing out the inequity and the injustice and the unfairness of the whole situation, and… I don’t know if the trick is to rise above, or, uh, maybe it’s as simple as love and coming together as a human race and make it very difficult for people to discriminate and exclude based on gender, race, color, religion, any of the subsets of humanity that we’ve decided we have. So, I think personal responsibility is the most important thing, but if one is in a position of power on a TV show, you got to remember what you’re representing, that you have a, you know, you have to cover all or cover none. So, you know, but if you stick to a story and you have a story about a person or two people and their journey, that’s shining light on things. If you try to advocate for all, I think it becomes a little more complicated. Does that make sense?

so, i just feel like he said some important things there, but like I also don’t really understand what he’s getting at really, y’know? oh! also, he didn’t watch the finale lmao 

also! there’s this:

MARK: Because if you come down on one side or another, you’re admitting the sides, and that has its own political ramifications. If you push the ball up in the air and say, “you decide”, I don’t think that’s copping out. I think that’s, maybe not fulfilling everybody’s expectations, or not fulfilling everybody’s hopes, but at least you’re getting the question asked. You know, at least you’re getting the question asked. At least people are relating to it and going, “well, what if?”. Because it’s all “what if”, I mean, it’s a TV show, so it’s “what if”, you know? It’s not Misha being in love with Jensen, I mean as much as he loves Jensen, I don’t think that’s his thing – I mean you never know – but I’m saying yet again, I don’t exclude anything from anybody (I LITERALLY CAN’T BELIEVE HE SAID THIS LMAO). But to force my opinion or my identity belief upon a situation has a cost. It may be right, it may be absolutely right, and it may be necessary in many, many cases. But, in that circumstance, I think… there are a lot of people in the world that say that Jesus, for example, was anti-homosexual and that he was – and none of that is true, and none of that is provable in the New Testament, and I’m not talking about Leviticus and I’m not talking about early Bible and I’m not talking about the fact that more than 25,000 words have been changed in the King James edition and all of this stuff, but these things that people hold so sacred, the confusion that arises from that is being told that a man loving a man or a woman loving a woman or a man loving a man and a woman or whatever combination being there is either right or wrong because you’re being told by a pastor or the leaders of your church, is a very difficult thing to break down. I think what you have to do is at least put it out there so it’s visible, and so it becomes less and less deniable. And you know, people change over years, that’s the trouble with youth, is shit doesn’t move fast enough. “I need a decision now!”, and unfortunately, when you’re dealing with centuries of prejudice and centuries of un-enlightenment, I think that sometimes the best thing to do is reach as many people as possible and pose the question. And sometimes it’s essential to make a statement, absolutely, no question. It is essential to make a stand, in some circumstances. But to polarize a TV show, can be very disingenuous to those who need to go ask their own questions, who need to go say, “well, where does Jesus say this is wrong?” you know, if that’s your beliefs.

he also said, when we went off on a tangent about doom patrol:

MARK: There are issues that are being addressed here [on Doom Patrol] that are not being addressed on other shows, and yet again, we have the format, and I don’t know that Supernatural ever had the format because it was on the CW.

anywho, in conclusion, fuck the cw.

also, again, for all intents and purposes this was a dream I had :)))))))

[lightofraye]

Yes, yes, and yes!

Also: no. They do not listen to Jensen whenever he says something even remotely negative about his marriage, about his modeling days, about his working relationship (ha!) with Misha, anything like that. They only care what creates his "perfect image".

For instance: they actually think he's okay with his modeling days. He is not.

For instance: they think Danneel is super-supportive, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

For instance: they think Danneel is a hard worker, a great mom... with zero evidence to support that.

For instance: they think it's all PR with Jared. Uh, sure. Why would anyone who is doing PR go to that extent? No. There'd be no need.

For instance: they actually think he's happy with Danneel. If they listened to the stories he told at cons, watched them interact, they'd know better. The stories have an underlying sense of negativity toward Danneel, or even lack Danneel. I've mentioned a few of them already. As for watching how they interact... seated far apart, him unwilling to kiss her publicly, and if he did, it's cold, with zero response from him.

For instance: they ignored him saying he only wanted one... and think it's cute that Danneel got her wish.

"What a woman wants, God also wants". Wow. So the man's wants are to be ignored? Jensen wanted one. Period. He was not happy learning Danneel got pregnant again and she knew it--thus that awful story he told about her using JJ to tell Jensen in public. So he couldn't get angry, yell, or any other kind of bad reaction. Jensen is image-conscious. It would've been noticed if he had a fight with Danneel at the airport.

To this day, I'm convinced none of the kids were planned--at least, not by Jensen. Danneel did it to trap him, to keep him married, because everyone has a limit.

Him staying for the kids is both admirable and a bad idea. Children know their parents aren't happy, and this teaches them it's okay to suffer in an unhappy marriage. They'd be better off with the parents divorced and finding happiness elsewhere.

Hell, maybe Danneel used fertility drugs to increase her chance of getting pregnant with the twins and the twins aspect was truly an accident--but hey, three kids, three times the child support.

Jensen's from a strongly religious household. (His father is rather known for conservatives beliefs, stemming from religion.) It's likely he knew if he divorced right after Danneel got pregnant, he'd face hell for it. So he stayed.

And stayed.

And now he's trapped.

The AAs listen? No... or they'd know a lot of what they spout is complete nonsense.

Them, love their fave? Only if he dances the way they want him to dance.

Aren't you exhausted Jenna, from being jensen's self proclaimed internet saviour?? I mean, here you are scouring the net for any sign of negativity on the guy. I mean, you're scouring our blogs, crying because we made fun of Jensen and Misha, stalking other fans because they dream of having him. What does it get you??? Lol

[cockelores]

maybe not relevant or interesting for anyone except me, but i keep thinking about the nerd hq panel from 2014 and one question that was asked there, so I’m making a little analysis post <3 i also briefly looked through some posts from that time, but didn’t see this interaction mentioned anywhere, so! here it goes

the question starts at 9:27 and the whole answering goes til 14:30. (I’d say it’s worth watching it play out in the video first, just to be able to feel this a little more, u know)

the fan asks: “what has been the best/most memorable moment and experience this whole journey you guys have done with the show?”

jared: oh that’s easy. no, it actually is easy for me, i met my wife on the show. uh, yeah, the mother of my two kids. so right, that’s easy for me. good luck guys.

then he gives them this look and jensen waits a second and (without looking at him directly) says “thanks jared”

at the same time misha starts answering the question: for me it was the first time that I - I- slept with [a short pause that seems aaalmost deliberate here] jared’s wife

jensen nods a little exaggeratedly and looks around, and idk if it’s just me but he has a weird, sort of far away look in his eyes? like he’s thinking hard about an answer of his own or something. mark jokes about how misha is the father of jared’s two kids then, and jensen looks like he only grins at that because everyone else is laughing too, not like he necessarily listened all that well lol

misha fidgets and grins and looks a little awkward, but he throws a very short glance at jensen before looking at the audience again

they keep joking about that a little more, “are we live again? I’ll be more careful” and about someone in the audience

then jared asks: what about you sheppar-......ackles?

jensen turns to him and looks kind of caught off guard, turns to mark who asks “who?” and back to jared again and asks “what?” himself. he seems a little unprepared, actually audibly gulps when he makes an attempt at answering, stammers a little and passes the question on to mark at last

idk about you, but to me it looks like ever since jared answered the question at the beginning, jensen has come up with a very similar answer in his head - an answer that he’s obviously not gonna say out loud. and he’s sort of struggling to come up with an alternative and seems like he’d rather just be ignored and move on to the next question.

anyway, there’s some short banter between mark and the moderator, and then misha picks up where he left his previous answer: i have to say for me, and I’m not gonna distill it to a single moment, other than the one that i mentioned earlier. 

jared interrupts and makes a joke about how it was probably just a single moment, everyone laughs (sadly the camera doesn’t pan to jensen, would have liked to see how he reacted) and some jokes follow, and misha never finishes his answer

mark then asks “what about you jensen?” and jensen ONCE AGAIN seems to have expected that he could have gotten out of this one without answering and says “what?” and somehow manages to pass the question on to mark again

[not relevant for this post at all but here are two gifs that i just wanted to include

ok continuing with the post]

mark talks about how he was bullied on set by jared (as a joke but also, it makes me feel very uncomfy if what he said is true (also now after charcon i wonder why he said he wasn’t pranked by jared? (or did he say that, i didn’t watch)))

and then, at last, it looks like jensen has come up with an answer! he talks about how directing his father was a memorable experience for him and finishes his answer like this: there’s been a lot of great moments though over the past nine years. and i would say the fact we can say it has been nine years is one of the greatest things of the series that we can say, so thank you.

very curious to know if he is looking at mark or at misha here (the latter is not looking back) but this conclusion to the question gives me a lot of “i have some amazing pebbles in my life [pats misha’s shoulder]” vibes

anyway, just looking at all of this through cockles glasses sure is something! at least to me! starting with jared’s answer at the beginning, i think he has every right to say what he said, because meeting your spouse has got to have a very very significant meaning to you, but it is inevitably gonna put the other couple in a weird spot. they might like to repeat what he said, make it even funnier by turning to mark and repeat jareds words like “good luck mark!!” but yeah, obviously not happening. 

but then what misha answers at first does seem to me like it is an attempt? like a joke that is funny hearing in the most overt way, him literally joking about sleeping with jared’s wife, but also like an inside joke between the four of them who can see the subtext of what he is saying. and that’s also why i imagine the very brief pause after he says “sleeping with” was deliberate, because perhaps he was intending to give them a short heart attack, like he was gonna mention someone else after that 😀

and then there’s the whole thing with how jensen is acting throughout this. if i try to imagine myself in his position, it feels so logical that he’s acting kind of off? because he does get put on the spot a little here. but this is all just about vibes and feelings here, idk!! it just makes me nod in a way, like yeah jensen, i get this somehow. the queer experience, one might say

I feel like i could say more, but maybe the clip also speaks for itself. from a cockles pov it’s all just.....sus