#they also have a homoerotic thing going on. btw. and yes it's toxic

[ruvviks]

DEIANEIRA BLOODREAVER · HUMAN(?) STORM SORCERER · ENTERTAINER

[maniacwatchestheworld]

Just want you to know, bruharvey is kinda already implied by DC. Frank Miller's works Year One and Dark Knight Returns have panels that include homoerotic subtext between them, such as the one with Batman hiding under the desk when Gordon comes in as if they have a secret affair, and Harvey later telling him to "come out", and another panel with Bruce comparing him and Harvey to lovers: "we tumble like lovers". The Jekyll and Hyde comic (notoriously bad btw, do not read) has panels oozing with homoeroticism of Harvey being super affectionate to Bruce. In the Telltale game, the player as Bruce has the option to give Harvey flowers and Bruce says to him, "you'll always be beautiful to me, Harv". The Face to Face arc has Harvey saying he and Bruce went on a date. The Batman vs Two-Face movie jokes about their relationship: "Oh my! Two handsome bachelors who are still best friends after all these years? Oh! It's enough to give a girl the vapors." And you probably already know this but in Detective Comics #1063, a love song plays over their reunion. The BTAS tie-in comics and BTAS itself has a lot of implications of something between them as well. There's just generally a lot of subtext in most Batman media featuring the two. Also this is stupid but it is notable how Harvey is usually Bruce's "damsel in distress", a trope usually relegated to female love interests for men to rescue, and Harvey as a damsel for Bruce surprisingly occurs in a lot of Batman media.

Frank Miller. The first person you decided to list on here is Frank Miller. Known raging racist and misogynist Frank Miller. Frank Miller who, while he did a lot of admirable work on The Dark Knight Returns and Batman: Year One, also wrote and drew one of the worst, most vile comic books out there in Holy Terror (No, not Batman: Holy Terror, just Holy Terror). Now I will admit that I can't personally verify that he's a homophobe (I CAN tell you that he used 'gay' and 'queer' in a very slurry context back in All Star Batman and Robin, but that was also made in the time when using those words like that was more commonplace and seen as acceptable), but I have doubts that he's an ally either. And even if he is, I don't think that we should want him anywhere near us or our community. I wouldn't chalk any homoerotic subtext in anything Frank Miller has written as being intentional, but rather being a result of that toxic obsession with masculinity that Frank Miller is known for indulging. Because we all know that toxic masculinity when taken to its extreme somehow always manages to circle back around to being pretty darn gay without the people perpetuating it ever realizing it. So... Just... Not a great place to start... >.< Also if you're going to take Frank's usage of simile and metaphor on face value as evidence of Bruce and Harvey being into each other... Then that means that Bruce also probably wants to fuck buildings... >.>

THERE'S HOMOEROTIC SUBTEXT IN JEKYLL AND HYDE!!!??? I've heard that it's bad and don't really intend to read it... BUT IF THERE'S HOMOEROTICISM! Please send me the homoeroticism! If you want to stay anonymous, you can just send me the images, I'll delete the thing that you sent it on and make a separate post for it. GIVE ME THE HOMOEROTIC STUFF FROM JEKYLL & HYDE PLEASE! I WANNA SEE IT! Otherwise I may HAVE to read it just to find the homoerotic stuff! Please don't subject me to that fate!

Huh. I've been playing the first Telltale game and I don't remember the option of being able to give Harvey flowers. Damn shame too because with how I play Bruce, he's hopelessly in love with Harvey lol (Unlike >90% of players, I DID NOT sleep with Selina!) I feel pretty convinced that they must have wanted to make Harvey a romancable option in the Telltale game, but that DC didn't let them.

Should I check out the Face to Face arc...? I know nothing about it.

I saw Batman vs. Two-Face and we can agree there! There was not a single straight thing about that film! Also yes, can verify the Detective Comics #1063 thing... Also like... Look at that cover! Wanna see Harvey as a damsel, there you go! And I have watched all of Batman: the Animated series so will agree with you there and I am still working on reading the comics for the animated series. Looking forwards to the issue with the parachute scene... >.>

I do agree with you that there's a fair bit of subtext between Harvey and Bruce out there... I know that it's there and I do see it. But we deserve better than just subtext. We shouldn't take our subtext and just be happy with the scraps we're given. If any of this is intentional (which at least some of it must be), then it just isn't enough. Headcanon is good and all, but I don't want this to be baiting and teasing that goes nowhere. As a minimum they should confirm one or both of them as bi, even if they don't get together. We as a community deserve better than just subtext and teasing! We deserve actual canonical characterization, dammit! And I think that we can actually get it! I think that Bruce and Harvey getting together would just be the right call for them narratively speaking and so want it to actually happen! Make it happen, DC you cowards!

[falling-through-the-sea]

Didn't read this till the end but y'all should. Also annoying and "toxic" relationships like zosan, quackbur (@zemedym still don't ship them?) or any other where there are homoerotic arguments and tension and alleged hatred,,, fun fact - those things are actually in the most healthy relationships.

For example, if your partner tells you all about their problems, and even finds faults in your behavior, it means they trust you and want to deal with their problems with you and better you!!!, and tbh, we all love the enemies to lovers/homoerotic rivals trope.

Also, if your partner stops to tell you about his struggles, even if you might be happy that he doesn't complain to you anymore at all, that actually means that the relationship is going to be over.

So, just a quick note to that "I love couples bickering and annoying and my love language is arguing and fighting trope" because honestly who doesn't. And it has an instinctive reason, otherwise why would so many people simp for them and even find anything good at them? The seemingly all terrible and toxic and fighty relationship?

I mean, come on, have an ounce of trust in a human intuition, guys, and trust me. People just KNOW when something isn't right, not just INFJs and INTJS can see the patterns and recognize them and realize, even subconsciously (yes that's how we do it btw) let your mind take it as it pleases and see the good in it.

So, yeah.

Sometimes to argue is good in relationship. It's also a healthy way to communicate, if you don't go to extremes and like shout or throw glass at each other and to the walls.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

I haven't watched that much of One Piece yet, so feel free to disagree with me on this analysis, but there's one thing about people's general interpretation of Sanji as a character that drives me a little nuts. And I'm saying this because even though I'm not very far along, I got spoiled for his backstory (because I refused to stop reading fanfiction even though when I first started I was like, on episode 3).

So before you continue, there are spoilers for Sanji's past.

I think people tend to ignore that the differences between Sanji's demeanor towards men vs towards women likely partially stem from severe trauma. I don't believe his actions are entirely intrinsic, its not like he was born acting like this - nor is it an unchanging immutable fact of his character, despite what a lot of people seem to believe.

And for some context on what prompted this - I'm a sanzo/zosan shipper, so I tend to crawl through the depths of the internet looking for fun little videos and fanarts, and one consistent protest I see with this ship is "Sanji DESPISES men and WORSHIPS women, there's literally no way he could EVER be attracted to men or want to date a man he HATES them."

Which bothers me outside of any arguments about Sanji's sexuality or even about any ships - which I will get to in a second - because that interpretation of Sanji assumes his actions are just there for no reason. Sanji hates men, therefore he hates all men with no exceptions, and he will always hate men. Sanji loves all women, therefore he will always worship every single woman he meets. I dunno, I think it's just a very surface level understanding of who he is, and relies on setting a rule for no reason and just sticking to it, as if it's just a mere quirk of his character with no backing to it.

Sanji's first interaction with any people, was in the form of his biological family, as is the case with most of us. Specifically, his father and brothers, who abused him and didn't even treat him like a person, and his mother and sister, who were the only people that treated him with kindness and saw his humanity. Tbh, he reminds me of the way women who have experienced trauma from men act - a general dislike/disdain and distrust for them (for good reason). And I don't doubt Sanji's overall elevation of women was only hammered home by the fact that his first ever father figure - arguably the first man who's treated him with kindness - teaching him the lesson to always respect women. His very illogical need to never fight women probably partially comes from the events in his life, and because it's not just a two dimensional arbitrary rule established for his character - there can be exceptions and growth.

We already know this, because despite Sanji's general disdain of men as a whole, he is capable of caring/loving men that he personally knows. He loves Zeff, and he loves his nakama - some of whom are MEN. Like, it's right there??? In the same way a woman who has experienced violence at the hands of a man probably still has family and friends or even a significant other that they love and care about that are men.

Like if you're using his demeanor towards the different genders as an "aha got you" argument for why Sanji couldn't possibly be queer, its not as strong of an argument as you think it is.

And if we're operating under the assumption that Sanji partially acts like this because of trauma, it brings up quite a few interesting arguments about his sexuality and potential romantic partners.

Which segways into sanzo/zosan, since admittedly I got into this entire debacle because I was looking into fanart (non-shippers feel free to click away now if you wish, I get that not everyone likes the ship, which is valid).

I don't think Sanji's actions means he couldn't be bisexual. Cause I'm bisexual, and you know what would make me very very keen to ignore all my attraction to one specific gender? If I had multiple instances of that gender hurt me severely. In fact I'm not so certain I don't experience that, because while I haven't had anything super bad happen to me, I hear about things in the news, about friends and family who have been harmed, interacted with men who have talked down to me, and I definitely went through a phase in my younger years where i just refused to consider men as a possibility for a romantic partner, because I was just so so angry. And I'm not saying Sanji doesn't like women in truth, because he absolutely does. He's both attracted to them and likes them. But that doesn't eliminate the possibility that he might also be attracted to men, or other non-binary genders. In fact the more he doth protest, and puts on a show when he sees a pretty woman, the more I'm sure he's in denial. Internalized homophobia can also be a bitch. Contrary to making me think Sanji is absolutely straight, the way he acts in the show actually puts me the opposite way.

I've heard Sanji also has an interesting relationship with gender and may be genderqueer but I don't know as many details about that yet, so I'll skip it for now. But regardless, I look at Sanji and go "I don't think this is a traditionally cishet character."

Of course, this is by far not the only interpretation you can have of Sanji. It could be that he's traumatized and also heterosexual. That's absolutely fine. But my overall point here is that I don't think what we see in canon negates the possibility that Sanji can be queer.

As to why I like Zosan in relation to this:

1. First, a relatively minor thing, I enjoy the sheer amount of bickering/fighting. People hold that up as a reason to not like the ship and I'm like, my dude that's one of the only reasons why I'm here. My love language is annoying the people you love and occasionally having homoerotic battles. duh.

2. Zoro is one of the aforementioned men that Sanji cares about, one of the exceptions to his "men are horrible" thing. Like they argue and fight a lot, sure, but you're not convincing me that they don't love each other. In whatever capacity - platonic or romantic - is up to your interpretation. Sanji loves all of his nakama, that's not really something I see as up for debate.

3. I honestly believe that until Sanji gets a less extreme viewpoint of the different genders - he won't be able to be in a healthy romantic relationship with a woman. For one thing, I know Sanji has self worth issues for days. For another thing, his hero worship for women as a whole - his refusal to fight women, even when they're actively trying to harm him - I don't see that translating well to a relationship. Moreover, I can see it being exhausting for the woman he ends up with, to always be treated like she's made of glass or agreed with, regardless of what she says.

Essentially, he wouldn't really treat that relationship as a partnership between equals, and I think when that happens, you run the risk of the individuals hurting each other, even on accident. Of course, we can also see this as a facet of his character with exceptions and possibility for personal growth. Maybe if he gets with a girl he'll grow and learn and still end up in a good relationship. You could also just interpret his demeanor as over the top flirting that he'll reign back in for an actual serious relationship. Sky's the limit when it comes to fandom interpretations.

But because of this, regardless, I just don't see any potential between the female characters I've met and Sanji. What I do see potential in, is Zoro. Here is actually a character Sanji not only trusts to watch his back, is on equal footing with, but is also unafraid to speak his mind and fight with. He doesn't walk on eggshells or worship the ground Zoro walks on, he has no qualms about defending himself if Zoro crosses a line. That is what a relationship can be built on.

4. Zoro has a contrasting way of interacting with women that I find super interesting. He comes off as the kind of character that doesn't actually care about the gender of the person he's fighting or interacting with - he cares about their ability. Which kinda explains his reactions when he hears Kuina's thoughts about being a girl - and I think Tashigi as well if I'm remembering correctly. There could be a clash of beliefs there that might be quite interesting. I know Zoro and Sanji do fight about how they talk to women, but I meant like something not just played off for laughs. Maybe there is something like that later in the show, who knows, I'm still early on.

5. Again the entire reason why I like enemies to lovers is the need for personal growth. I heard someone say that Zoro would be fine with being in love with a boy if it wasn't Sanji, and Sanji would be fine with being in love with Zoro if he wasn't a boy, and man do I think that's accurate. And here's the crux of the matter - in order for them to get together, they need to get over their hang-ups. Sanji needs to unpack the ten million tons of trauma he keeps repressed under his curly noggin, and Zoro needs to figure out why Sanji rubs him the wrong way. That shit is INTERESTING. People forget that the reason why this trope is so popular is BECAUSE it's a fixer upper - there's work to do. Nothing is perfect. It may even be a little toxic. That's the appeal.

Anyways this is getting TOO LONG. Thanks for reading!