#theres nothing queer about a man being misogynistic

[grrrlwiththemostcake]

Saw this on Twitter and this is sooo true I see it a lot on here

[booblywooblies]

im gonna post this here bc i dont want anyone to get the wrong idea on main

ive been thinking for a long time about why detransitioners are usually afab, and i think im developing a couple theories. the first one is i think its more difficult to be classified as a man, genuinely, than a woman. i know that seems immediately incorrect bc a big aspect of transmisogyny is denying transfems their womanhood but i think even if transphobes are calling transfems men they dont really mean it. theres been some talk about which trans people have "male privilege" and some people argue transfems do and the most common response to that is that even if transfems are not out they are not regarded as true men, theres something about them that people can pick up on as inherently queer that others them from manhood (sometimes, all of this is sometimes nothing is universal)

i watched a video a while ago about the "incel to trans pipeline" which was kind of about the type of incel that isnt so much concerned with the lack of sex so much as being a failure as a man and how theres a group on like 4chan or something that seek transition not because theyre trans but to escape the pressures of masculinity and i thought that was really interesting

i think that in some ways, despite all the bullshit women go through with being belittled and objectified and disrespected, there is maybe some comfort in being the "weaker" gender, and the more "desireable" gender.

something ive been dealing with that, i mean it hasnt really been a struggle bc i enjoy men even when they are fat and greasy and hairy so im down with being that. theres something thats very weird about losing like, a certain pool of attention i guess. ive been hit with the realization that i will never be attractive to straight men again, and like thats a good thing because i wouldnt want them to see me as a woman im also kinda sad about it? like it feels like im losing a kind of power, even if its not a real power that has any actual use to me

and i probably dont even have to mention how intimidating it is to present myself to the world as a real man, especially when im 5 foot nothing and have H cups. like one thing when it comes to trans men that EVERYONE says about them is they are either basically only men in name, hanging on to their girly habits and interests in a way thats cringy and annoying, or they, in an effort to distance themselves from the first one just adopt toxic masculinity and beef up their own image of themselves by being more misogynistic

and obviously the first end is more on the people putting them down than the guys who are like that themselves, but thats what im really afraid of, ive already experienced being put down for my interests as a girl, the idea of being denied my real gender for any of that stuff is terrifying. and like, its kind of inherently misogynist to want to escape fully from femininity isnt it? and i do value anti-misogyny more than i do masculinity, thats definitely true in my heart. but it sort of feels at odds with each other, its hard to want to be a man, to seek approval as a man, to care about women being taken as seriously as you want to be taken, and to not put anyone down in your path to get there.

like if i wasnt so committed to it, if i believed this was ACTUALLY more in conflict than i really do, i could see myself as having a responsibility to not transition. im sure a lot of people have a different reason for doing that but i think it makes sense that so many afabs detransition because masculinity can break people.

and like BIG BIG BIG disclaimer, im not thinking about detransitioning, i dont think masculinity is inherently toxic, im gay and i have a cis husband, i think men are cool, i think women are cool and i like them a lot i respect them. im just inspecting this because i was not sure why it happens and i figured itd be in my best interest to figure it out, i think i have, i think its difficult and complicated but doesnt apply to me.

im transitioning bc it feels good and i have a man fetish 👍 and no one can stop me motherfucker

[poorlilpubby]

Some trans dude thats like hella conservative just left a comment under one of my posts. On one hand its the funniest shit I've ever seen. I think he thinks that im like a therian? Bruh im just horny and like wearing a collar lol.

But serious talk now, its kinda sad seeing that. Since I used to be like that. I was so insecure and looking for approval from cis men that I did what he did. I would misgender other trans people if they didn't follow gender roles. I would say really misogynistic shit. I only accepted "LGBT" and no other labels.

And guess what? It was miserable. I was constantly policing myself. If I thought about anything "feminine," i would treat myself terribly.

Looking back, the reason I did all of that was out of jealousy. Being jealous of trans people who had the ability to transition medically but didn't care to pass all the time.

I tried to defend myself by saying "oh if trans people weren't weird, we'd have more rights." Yeah right, transphobic people are transphobic, no matter how well we present ourselves. Policing other queer people for being "cringe" does nothing. We're all in this together. We're all people.

I just hope that the man who left a comment under my horny post (which is confusing, why are you looking at horny tumblr?) takes time to himself. To look inside and see what pain there is. I don't want to show the account, I dont want people to go to his account. I just hope he realizes that life can be "cringe", and theres nothing wrong with that. A lot of his posts are calling posts cringe or calling people delusional.

It takes a toll on your mental health, being so negative so frequently. I just hope he can see that things that are odd to him aren't evil. That he can just ignore them. And enjoy life.

[soulsunforgiven]

finally home. that was... nice. i needed a nice day.

[mueritos]

How do you feel abt the topic of transmisandry? I personally don’t like the term (bc it implies that misandry is real), but a lot of discussions of specific transmasc oppression and transman oppression have devolved into people saying transmasc oppression is small potatoes and (in some cases I’ve seen) not real or just a by product of misogyny and there doesn’t seem to be any other term or tag where we can talk abt the oppression specific to transmascs , particularly trans men of color. So I wanted to ask your opinion on it, if you had one.

Hmm. I've had different ideas about transmisandry in the post and have sortve agreed with some aspects of it. I'll be inserting a read more.

It's true that transmen are treated much differently than transwomen, ciswomen, and cismen. But I also don't think coining this oppression as "misandry" is helping anyone. People don't hate transmen because we're men, they hate us because they think we're women. Terfs believe we're sisters lost to the patriarchy and trans agender, transphobes dont even see us as men, and lots of cis queer people infantilize transmen because we're seen as men-lite, again, not even as men. We're fetishized because we are seen as men-lite or as "pussy boys" (again, viewing us as women, and ofc theres nothing wrong with transmen calling themselves pussy boys, its just weird when cis people do it). I do genuinely believe we have, will, and do experience misogyny, only because misogyny affects everyone. Just because a cis man isn't going to be targeted by misogyny, he is still affected by it because of his distance from misogyny (he's not viewed as a second rate human for being a man), he profits off of it, but he is also forced to be a misogynist and internalize misogynist ideas that in the end do not allow him to be emotional, a caretaker, a father, a parent, a husband, and a good person.

Transmen do experience misogyny for the fact that we have lived as women, whether some of us view that period in our lives as us being women or just performing femininity; to be honest, it doesn't matter, because any perception of femininity is seen as inferior. I don't think its wrong to say that transmen experience misogyny, nor is it transphobic to say this. Like I mentioned before, misogyny affects everyone, and we all gain and lose from it in many ways. Female abusers gain from misogyny because they're seen as simply "crazy girlfriends/wives,etc" who do harm that is normalized within that archetype, harm that society as a whole accepts. Transmen gain from misogyny the moment we're seen as "cis-passing", because men will switch up their language around another man in regards to what they say about women. But transmen are affected by reproductive rights, sexual health access (abortion, family planning, birth control, STI/STD testing), and transmen are infantilized largely because we are still see as a lesser sex than cisgender men, something which I would argue IS misogyny. As a transmasc latine, I've had to face heavy gender norms that largely did not shift at all for me even after I transitioned. I was still expected to keep the house clean, cook, take care of children when needed, and while this should be expected of everyone, it was still something that was never expected or even seen in the cismen of my family. In fact, a lot of transmascs of color have to navigate the role of both, and while this is optimal as really everyone should just be doing both roles (and roles as in let's de-gender their functions, like everyone should be cooking, cleaning, doing housework, yardwork, child rearing, etc), it is again not really expected from cis men in communities.

I do think we can come up with a better term, and I've always opted to say "trans oppression" or "transmasc oppression", because while our infantilization and dehumanization IS different according to our status as transmen, I still have a hard time believing it is COMPLETELY different from womens'. I don't think there's anything wrong with being a transmasc who is open to the fact that we still have proximity to womanhood, much like transfemmes can be honest about their proximity to malehood. This isn't to say that transmascs or transfemmes have a "male priviledge" or that transmascs ARE women and that transfemmes are secretly men, or whatever else the terfs say, I think its just a fact that because we have to oscillate between various genders, roles, and identities, that that has made us gain the experiences of those roles we've had to inhabit, voluntary or not. I spend a lot of time in women's spaces, not just because as a feminist one should, but because women's spaces used to be for me! And truthfully, I think women's spaces should be open to trans people; our oppression is rooted in misogyny, just as it is rooted in racism, ableism, sexism, homophobia, and etc.

As for a better term, I think its best to leave that up to the members of our community who have largely shaped it. My proximity to whiteness is far greater than other trans people, so if anyone were to come up with new language or terms, I would prefer to use the ones created by BIPOC trans people. I think it's one of the reasons why I prefer saying "trans oppression" instead of specifying a oppression; when we use hyper specific terms, we move away from the various intersections and similarities between other communities and their oppressions, similarities and communities who I think we need to have better connections and solidarity with. I think we can talk about how transmisogyny primarily affects the lives and well-being's of transwomen and still acknowledge that misogyny also affects transmen without stepping on any toes. I say this, of course, with disclaiming that we can't say this without acknowledging intersectionality (as I always make these claims with intersectionality in mind, but I do have to disclaim because I also realize not everyone walks through life with these intersections constantly in mind). Racism, ableism, colorism, etc need to be acknowledged in order to help those who need social networks, assistance, and aid the most.

I understand the need to label everything we feel; it brings community and a term to rally behind. But I think using the language we already have can do the conversation justice, we just need to have these conversations with nuance, which unfortunately for a lot of people, they just like...do not have. The lack of queer history, solidarity, and queer experience that so many people have...and then these are the people that end up speaking the loudest. The best thing i can say is build solidarity and community, continue learning, continue talking, and get off the internet. Queer spaces are much more meaningful IRL than online.

I hope that helped a bit. It's a bit lengthy and i could keep talking, but I would rlly appreciate any further thoughts, ideas, or critiques :)

[shinraapologist]

Ok so I was re reading some over your drrr novel rereads, (and I know that homophobia isn’t uncommon for Narita), but I keep hearing abt how Narita made kyohei homophobic (and also misogynistic on occasion) but I’ve never read the novels and was wondering if you’d go into what exactly went down??? (because I really like your commentary!)

(Side note: tbh making a character like kyohei homophobic just feels like friendly fire cuz there’s no way he isn’t bi)

The gist of it was some comments he made during the saika arc. one about niekawa being a "queen" (as in a gay man, not a drag queen) for saying he wanted to love shizuo while under saikas possession and the strong reaction everyone had to erika suggesting shizuo and izaya were in love. There may have been another random comment from him somewhere? He occasionally makes comments about women that could be read as misogynistic or chivalrous depending on translation, tone, or interpretation. Youre absolutely right tho- kadota is all but canonically bi... Tell me hes not attracted to chikage. (Narita is great at accidentally writing trans and queer characters. Butch Hartman moment.) There are a few untasteful lines like that in the novels that dont make it to the anime (at least in my memory). Theres one later in the series when shizuo tells tom hes only ever been told i love you by one woman(saika) but he wasnt even sure she was really a woman, and Tom asks what shizuo means by that and asks whether he frequents "gay clubs and transsexual bars" (wording could vary by translation). It isnt said in a judgmental or hateful manner to my memory. The novels arent like.. Intensely thematically homophobic or anything, theyre more of a reflection of Japan in 2004- nothing expressed is particularly egregious for the era, youd see and hear worse on any American sitcom circa 2004. (Theres also a line that heavily implies masaomi has slept with one of the drs taking care of saki more than once. I dont have anything intelligent to add there other than I was genuinely shocked to read it.)

[ex-terf-anti-terf]

as soon as i dropped gender critical shit i immediately felt more at home with fellow queer people. how they can say theres no isolation tactic involved is just so bold.

they sold me this lie that trans people were fundamentally opposed to womens liberation and i went along with it. it made sense to a confused 16 year old. and yes i was confused, i had a lot of stress related to my own gender so the idea that your gender is determined by your sex brought some stability. i cant remember what made me "peak terf", it was several things maybe? idk. i just remember being turned off by their intense hatred of trans people, bisexuals, intersex people and also the sex negativity. and the fact that they dont actually care about womens issues unless they can use it for man hating.

there's also genuine criticism to be made on the man-hating ideology. ...my criticism anyway. a true radical feminist knows that criticizing patriarchy by trying to draw commonalities between cross-sex interpersonal relationships is not actually criticizing patriarchy. if that were true then womens liberation would mean making sure no one has any opinions which can be construed as sexist, ever. no one including women. patriarchy is a system akin to capitalism and feudalism, its not dependent on the interpersonal relationships people have. this is why women can be misogynists and men can be feminist allies and theres still a patriarchy.

but yeah. terfs are hateful and are objectively wrong about their views on patriarchy. their politics contribute nothing.

^^^^^^^^^

[moved-19871997]

(hi! sorry if you dont want to talk about the topic any longer, feel free to not answer this ask if you wish so /gen)

this "georges dentist stuff" reminds me how normalized mistreating george as a queer creator is, but no one gets held accountable because hes cishet, being straight up homophobic and misogynistic, by making the "uwu bottom gogy" jokes, which creates such a fucking dissonance. cus george gets fetishized and infantilsed at the same time the way gay men trying to just exist do?? and like one cant even play that into "oh its a dnf joke" because if it were, dream would get similar treatment. like its this horrible mix of homophobia and misogony cus the only person who gets that kind of treatment is the one considered less masculine, "the feminine one". and like in the fandom, its a fucking norm at this point, and that treatment bleeds into everything from memes through fanart to fanfiction. like the man got an omegaverse joke calling him an omega in his donations. its just really fucking horrible to see, especially since at this point theres practically nothing to be done about it.

(idk if this is even comprehensible, i just wanted to tell you my thoughts, hope you have a lovely day and night <3)

yeah yeah igy its so . idk the proper word but it's overall very weird the kinda treatment he gets from the fandom just bc?? he's a skinny pretty guy thats shipped with his friend ?? n like . i feel like a lot of it is as a result of thinking that he's not going to see most of it (bc he doesnt generally rlly interact w his fans that much) and also he doesnt (publically) seem to care about it? like sapnap's said that george has 'the thickest skin out of everyone he knows' and that's probaby why nothings being done abt it ? + bc dream (and i think sapnap) used to make similar jokes thats why people think they can too