#the word ‘proship’ doesn't even feel like a word anymore...

[fallenangelflonne]

based on the quality of my art, if i were to open emergency cashapp portrait, bust, or chibi sketch commissions, what do y'all think would be a fair price to charge? i have a plan, but it's an incredibly risky plan with a low chance of success and requires me to save up a lot of money before my next birthday.

[the-whumpening]

Re: Anonymous hate messages

[Image ID: Screenshot of an anonymous message sent to me, @the-whumpening. Several lines have been annotated by me with colored highlights. All text has been transcribed exactly as typed. The message reads:

i would not be protecting a (yellow) pedophile and incest supportor (/end yellow) but for each their own!:)))

(green) we do not claim (/end green) (blue) her. she (/end blue) (green) is not even doing "whump" at this point. (/end green) just plain (yellow) depraved pedoincest fantasy stories (/end yellow) while thinking (blue) she (/end blue) has (purple) one more personality every week. people do not need to see that, (/end purple) it is not okay. none of it is. (orange) maybe all those bans should have been a sign. /End Image ID]

As expected, I received my first ever hate message after talking about the situation with "antis" attacking whump community members. The "proship"/"anti-proship" debate has been around for fucking ages, and I'm personally sick of it, but I thought this would be a good teachable moment for any younger/less-internet-savvy folks here.

This ^ is trolling. Whether they believe everything they said or not, ultimately their goal was to rile up emotions and cause friction. Having been on the internet a good, long time (my main blog is from like 2009, y'all), I have seen my fair share of trolls. I've fallen for a few, too. It's inevitable. But to save your sanity and help you all deal with users like this, I've decided to share this message and break down the clues that told me it's not worth interacting with.

Yellow Highlights: What I've highlighted in yellow are the "scare words," I'll call them. They're flinging the most extreme, most obscene terms they can think of at the situation, even if it doesn't fit, because they're trying to scare me in to either complying or arguing. Nobody looks good if they're "arguing for" incest or pedophilia. They're setting up a no-win situation where my position looks absurd and unsupportable. Edit to add: my position, by the way, is that you can write/make whatever you want as long as you tag it appropriately and post it where it abides by the Terms of Service, which my friend did. I do not support censorship of any kind. I didn't think it needed to be said but I don't "support" real life pedophilia and incest, either. No one does, including my friend who was banned. That's a nonsense claim.

Blue Highlights: I referred to the specific user who got banned by his preferred pronouns in my original post. I exclusively used he/him, multiple times. By using she/her in this message, I know this user isn't arguing in good faith because either A) they didn't read my post clearly and think it's about someone else, or B) they're intentionally misgendering my friend. You cannot argue with someone who isn't approaching in good faith.

Green Highlights: This anon says that "we" don't claim the user I mentioned as a part of the whump community and that "[he's] not even doing "whump" anymore." Here we have a logical fallacy: that user doesn't belong here because they're "not a real whump writer." They've essentially made up a rule to exclude this person, and that justifies (to them) how that person was treated. (Who is "we," by the way? Anon is implying that they are aligned with the majority of the community, thus threatening to place me as an outsider.)

Purple Highlights: Blatantly ableist rhetoric towards someone who presumably has Dissociative Identity Disorder. As above, they're trying to justify why it's okay to bully and harass someone off the platform. "People do not need to see that." Nonsense. We don't exclude anyone from the community on the basis of their disability. Once again, Anon is not engaging in good faith.

Orange Highlight: Finally, their closing line feels like a threat. They claim that this user should have expected to be harassed, even that they deserved it. They imply that being banned/reported automatically implies guilt, regardless of the fact we know tumblr staff is less than charitable regarding bans--especially with queer and disabled users, and double especially anyone who posts any kind of remotely mature content (like your standard whump fare). We all remember waves of transfem users being banned out of the blue this year, as well as anyone sticking up for them. It happens all the time. I also mentioned in my original post that this user had been mass reported multiple times which led to his bans, which I think the gravity of is missed here. He was targeted, multiple times, by a ton of people falsely accusing him of breaking Terms of Service. Mass reports are rarely trustworthy, imho, and especially not if they happen to the same user multiple times. You know what most folks do if they don't like a person's content or behavior? They block them and move on. Maybe a single, accurate report if it seems necessary, but a reasonable person should never sic their followers on other users to mass report or harass. It's bad internet etiquette, and it has been for decades. The golden rule of the internet: if you don't like someone, block them and move on! If it sucks, HIT DA BRICKS!

And that's why I did not respond directly to this anonymous message. Nothing in its content gave me any indication that Anon and I could have a real conversation and gain an understanding of one another. I hope this helps some of you deal with any potential hateful messages you receive. The goal, above all, is to push you to an emotional high and make you have an angry outburst on them. That's what trolls feed off of. And if there's one thing being on the internet for longer than some of you have been alive has taught me: don't feed the trolls. Do not engage. Do not argue. Delete or block, and move on as much as possible. Turning off anonymous asks (or asks in general!) is always okay. Remember: you alone control your internet experience. You curate what you do and don't want to see and what kind of interactions you allow. Blocking is always an option. Turning off replies is always an option. Filtering tags is always okay. Be better than these folks, and remember you are in control of what you see and do--but you cannot control anyone else.

Side note: I did get a very lovely message from someone (who I will not name to prevent harassment) showing me support and being really kind, so that 1000% makes up for shitty messages like this.

[neuship-zone]

If you advocate for all forms of functional media, whether you like it or not, you're profic. Not all proship or profic people personally like everything they advocate for the rights for, but we still advocate (like, I don't like gore, but people still get to draw it)

Dont view everything as being with us or against us. Dont let misinformation get to you

See, there are reasons why I say I'm neuship and not profic/proship, the main one being because I don't want to be dragged into shipcourse unwillingly. I don't actually care about shipcourse very much, so describing myself as neuship is just a shorthand way for me to say "shipcourse is stupid and I don't wanna be associated with it". There's also a trauma aspect of it (basically at some point I was so invested in shipcourse that seeing the words "antishipper" and "proshipper" were enough for me to start having a panic attack. This isn't really the case anymore, but those memories are bad enough for me to want to try and distance myself).

The whole point of this blog is so that I can have a space to talk about shipcourse that won't affect any of my other blogs (though initially it was solely going to be a fandom blog)

Secondly, the meaning of proshipper has been twisted so much that I can't comfortably use it, even if I wanted to. I could say whatever I want about proshippers and profiction people not being weird predators who ship incest and there will STILL be someone out there accusing me of being a darkshipper. That, and I'll basically end up being on hundreds of DNI lists because of an assumption that is untrue. (Unless the people who say "proshippers dni" actually mean proshippers and not just darkshippers, because they make it very hard to tell). In case you can't tell, I am doing everything in my power to NOT be associated with darkshippers (because they make me uncomfy), and unfortunately part of that process involves avoiding labelling myself a proshipper.

Besides that, there are things within proship communities that I'm not very happy with. I'm aware that being proship doesn't mean I have to agree with every single thing a proshipper could say, but I would find it hard to align myself with a community that I feel doesn't quite express my exact thoughts on a situation.

Not sure what you mean by the last two sentences though. "Don't view everything as being with us or against us"????

Basically TL:DR - I don't wish to call myself proship/profic for my own reasons. I would gladly appreciate if you could respect that.

Though, if it makes you happy, I don't care if you refer to me as a proship-adjacent neushipper. Even with all the things I've mentioned, I cannot deny that my opinions on shipcourse will always be closer to proship stances than they will be to antiship stances, even if only because I value freedom more than anything else.

[proshippers-against-censorship]

see that's specifically what i was talking about in my original ask. shit like that is the exact reason i don't feel comfortable or safe being part of this community or even using the label at all anymore. the statement "pedophiles are bad" should never illicit a response longer than a singular sentence. that should not be something anyone argues with on any level. the fact this is even a conversation to be had makes me feel sick.

do you not see how hard it is for anyone else to believe you when you say you aren't pedophiles when you keep changing your beliefs like this? you go from "just because we like XYZ in fiction doesn't mean we're attracted to real kids" to "okay so maybe we are attracted to real kids, but i'm not proud of it" to "okay so maybe i am proud of it, but that isn't a problem because shame doesn't help anything" to "actually it is okay for pedophiles to be in contact with children because attraction isn't like a sanity meter in a video game and it can be overcame."

They call it "a political statement against the notion that their paraphillia should define them and makes them innate immoral," but there's another more fitting word I'd apply to that.

It's normalization. You're normalizing pedophilia. Like actually this time. You're making pedophilia seem like it isn't something innately bad or immoral. Or as some might say, making it seem as if it is normal.

i don't want to be a part of any community that welcomes (or even tolerates) pedophiles among them. in most circles, people who are outed as pedophiles are completely ostracized and booted out of any group they weasel their way into. if i absolutely have to choose between "we harass people over fiction" or "we are okay with known pedophiles making up 1/5 of our community and even carving out safe spaces where we will defend them from criticism," i will happily take the former.

i thought you were cool, man.

-anti anon

Not to mention the fact that I state that I post and publish things from all sides because, again, echo chambers bad.

Like, I know it says proship specifically, but any controversy is permitted so long as it remains polite. And the post I reblogged was polite.

I truly don't know what you were looking for, man.

[the-cat-and-the-birdie]

I’m kinda glad you got that ask cause that is SUCH a good way of wording it. My views on the whole pro/anti have relaxed since I got older but never to the point of full on pro-shipping and I couldn’t explain why it just doesn’t sit right with me to fit myself into either category. It’s like anti-shipping is so “nothing can be negative or even morally ambiguous ever” but I’ve seen pro-shippers call people puritans and compare them to actual dangerous right wing conservatives for being uncomfortable with things that are very normal to be disgusted by (like incest and/or graphic porn of young children).

Like why does it have to be one or the other when none of these people are making any sense half the time. It’s such a chronically online argument too. I cannot be bothered anymore

Pro-Ship/Anti-Ship talk: you can see my stance here.

[I denounce the entire conversation to begin and I existing exactly why.]

Exactly like - if we really care about these topics then let's not boil them all down into one question and then fight - without discussing the topics.

Case in Point:

I know why I got this ask. It's very easy to guess - the only person I really write about is Hobie. It's very easy for me to make the connection between Hobie - age - proshipping - 'ew'.

And I think the Hobie conversation in particular, like more than other cases - is ridiculous! I can't scream it enough.

Arguing about Hobie's age is an endless argument.

Every time this argument comes up people on both sides point to the Art Book and like - "Look it says-"

It doesn't say shit.

Literally one the EXACT same page in the EXACT same paragraph they describe him as

'SLIGHTLY older' and 'MUCH older' than Miles. In the same breath. Even the book doesn't know. So if someone is genuinely out here arguing for either side and you believe that you are unquestionably right - I see it as waste of time.

At the end of the day the Hobie in my head is an adult. If the Hobie in your head acts like a teen and you think he's a teen, okay cool. That's how you characterize him. But if you think that YOUR Hobie is MY Hobie - nah. They're both still Hobie, but we're not seeing the character the same

AND THAT'S FINE.

Honestly I'm just happy we got him to begin with.

And because I wanna end it positive

[him and diane smiling at each other AHHHHH]

But like regardles of age- Isn't Hobie such a good role model?!

Like, Miles' dad insists that Spider-man should be a role model, and Hobie thinks the opposite - he's not and he shouldn't be. (I should write about how his violent self-endangering ways may lead to him feeling this way)

But even so, he's a great role model to everybody, without even trying. To Gwen, To Miles, To me, and all the people watching he got into punk. All the young black kids with natural hair. All the alt black people. I can go on and on.

Like, EVERYONE feels safe with Hobie. Because he cares about people - and because of that, he's a role model.

Spider-punk may not be a role model, but Hobie Brown is. To everyone.

[usercookie2008]

Yk there's a reason why I block, called keeping a sense of mind and oh yk a kindly STOP INTERACTING, I chose my path and you're going down your's

I blocked you all across Every platform for a reason, give us both a piece of mind cause I knew you'd fucking react that way, I probably missed a couple of you and I know that but I'm not going to waste my energy talking, There was that chance but honestly fucking good riddance You unknowingly Drove me further apart from you guys, You're fucking assholes whether you wanna believe that or not and I feel a hundred times better away from you guys than I ever did trying to fit into that little group of yours, like wow I really felt welcome there even before I actually even started thinking about it.

Edit: ( Except you Arr, you were actually nice, I'm sorry that I cut you off like that but yk I doubt you'd want to be associated with me anymore too, saved us both a Painful Conversation)

You claimed to be my friend and flattered me with your words but still in the end you hardly ever Included me even when I tried so hard to include everyone and make them feel welcome, but fucking no one else did for me so I left!

And yk first time I left wasn't because of me being Proship', no It was because you ALL made me feel I wasn't welcome and constantly belittled me I mean who the fuck calls someone a "Devils advocate" (yes I'm still fucking salty about it) When someone's just trying to actually ask Clarifying Questions??? I wasn't trying to start shit I was actually trying to have a fucking conversation

Second and when I actually left was because then I chose to be a welcoming space fuckin regardless of what type of fiction, I do Not I REPEAT DO NOT ENDORSE THESE IRL, NOR WILL I EVER. But yk I'm not going to be apart of a Group who'll actively Dox, Harass, Threaten, and say absolutely fucking horrible things to people just because their taste in FICTION is darker than yours or Different in a way you don't like.

Antis will Never be welcome in my space, regardless if you 'like my work' or whatever

I don't even care if you're an "Anti who doesn't do that"

The moment you put that Antiship, Anti, Fucking whatever in your Bio, You're actively advocating Bullying and harassment and you are not welcome here.

Now if you don't fucking mind I'm going to continue on my Tuesday and continue to pretend you don't exist, because to me, you really don't anymore.

I'm going to go calm down cause fucking- take a hint. Just fucking take a hint and Leave. Don't try to persuade me, don't. Just fucking don't.

[goingtolebanon]

people will have "proship dni" in their bios out of some vague sense of needing to virtue signal and then ship toxic ships which is frankly baffling. here are some things to consider :

dni lists do not work

if you're uncomfortable with something or someone you can just fucking leave. the room, their blog, the post, the fanfic, the book...sometimes things will upset you and that's a part of life

"proship" is a word that means nothing anymore, especially when used in this sense. at that point you're just saying "pedophilia in fiction makes me uncomfortable" which is the same as saying nothing because that is the reaction of most people to pedophilia in fiction*

"proship" and "antiship" not only mean nothing but lack any nuance about the way in which people interact with media, and how fiction and real life influence each other. they also trivialize these issues by focusing them on shipping culture rather than fiction as a whole, which i think is silly when

we are currently facing a crisis of book banning and oppression of themes considered "too weird"

we are currently facing a crisis of oppression regarding trans, brown, & black people who become further oppressed when narratives related to book banning become normalized

the sooner you accept that you will eventually find a ship compelling that is #weird and/or #bad and would be concerning irl, the sooner you will come to peace with others doing the same & realize we are all literally just playing barbies on the internet—& overpolicing and frantically analyzing your own fantasies is a really unhealthy and unfun way to play barbies

maybe you don't have to be an internally morally pure person all the time as long as you are not causing real harm to other people and you focus on being nice and caring to others. maybe life is more about living with yourself and the world and, if you can, changing both for the better. there's no objective way to get a good grade in being a person. this is scarier than the idea that by aligning yourself with a certain ideology, you will find a definite answer about life, but i think it is worth accepting because otherwise, you will probably end up exhausted and stressed at all times about normal human behaviors

this is a lot to process especially in the world we live in and i don't blame anyone for however long they take on a personal journey of meaning or what the result of such a journey is, but i do think these things are worth considering. i do also hope this doesn't come off as judgmental, but more like the thoughts of someone who has gone through an extensive upheaval of my thoughts on this matter, which resulted in me going from debilitating intrusive thoughts to being able to live with my own brain on a daily basis

*this also doesn't mean it shouldn't exist btw. sometimes something making you feel uncomfortable is the fucking point, and even if it's not, i think placing bans on fictional content is an extremely slippery slope. i also think it's worth considering that the oppression of pedophiles historically and currently just means "the oppression of queer people, especially trans women" and also does nothing to address the root causes of pedophilia and its harms.**

**if you think pedophilia can be effectively addressed by punishing people for being pedophiles, you fundamentally misunderstand human nature. "all pedophiles should die" is a statement with horrifying implications if you think about it for longer than two seconds. even beyond other affected groups, someone experiencing sexual thoughts about kids actually isn't a reason for punishment. no thoughts can ever be a reason for punishment actually. is it a sign that that person should seek help? yeah absolutely! but why do pedophiles generally not seek help? shame. that type of repression and avoidance towards addressing the problem is not actually going to lead to a resolution of the issue, but in all likelihood will make them more likely to engage in harmful behaviors in a desperate and potentially dangerous (inc. to themselves) way. the best way to address pedophilia is to destigmatize it as an issue to seek empathetic help for, particularly considering that pedophilia occurs most in survivors of sexual abuse. "are you defending pedophilia then?" no, i'm a victim of pedophilia who is defending pedophiles. if the person who victimized me had been able to access help, he would not have hurt me.

[anti-bingusbongusbaba]

Yeah no I simply mistyped and I was following this blog because I genuenly believed this stuff, other then the proship stuff because I don't think making people believe that harassing others is wrong would be bad lol, other stuff yeah I did believe in, but again, it just seems less and less likely the more you people go into it, he said you're ex-friends, he left, he apologized, ect, but it doesn't matter what he does you find flaw in everything, much like angry ex-friends do, not like victims who want a situation to be seen as a genuen

And that's yet another reason why I don't anymore believe in this case, someone simply mistyping one word is the straws that you clutch at, you don't have a case, so you are trying as much as possible to make anything and everything be on your side, even if it isn't honest or true at all, so that's where you loose me, I DO hope he comes back and that he is supported through this, because it just seems like this blog is for bullying, not for a serious case

His apologies are shit, we are allow to not forgive him, they're not proper, they feel like he's just excusing things or not taking accountability for his actions. And yes! We are allow to point every flaw he does! We are angry victims, not angry "ex-friends".

And I also hope he comes back just to make a some sort of response, even though I'm gonna believe already it's gonna be ass, because once a groomer always a groomer and you can't excuse grooming.

[chilipowder9]

Oh no I do understand fitting the "technical" definition, though as someone who has seen one too many people who I've seen as rational and "neutral" shippers start interacting with more open proshippers suddenly do things like: Defending lolicon in servers to young teens were venting about feeling sexualized by such media, claiming that there's nothing wrong with real life incest, sending NSFW audios, fics, etc. of minors' F/Os to them and generally acting overly suggestive when giving them imagines, validation, etc... Believe me, I've seen it all firsthand, and even almost went down the road myself, and I firmly believe no matter how anti-harrassment you are the open proship side of Tumblr is no good of a place to stay in. I've been silently keeping up with ship discourse for a while now and what I've been seeing has only been getting worse, and progressively more toxic; Even if proshipping was originally built on anti-harrassment, I guess that doesn't mean anything to the ones who have been occasionally sending me anon hate for not associating with them anymore. Not to mention, to people who do know these things associating with proshipping or using any dogwhistles is a major red flag, so unfortunately that leaves a lot of people with nowhere else to turn, and that's how they're dragged down a rabbit hole. That's honestly why I simply call myself an anti even if I prefer to let sleeping dogs lie.

To get to the point, no matter the original definitions of pro and antiship, we're at the point where it's more akin to "likes immoral pairings or maybe worse" and "is against immoral pairings and actions." It's a very slippery slope and I don't want to see a mutual who brightens my day go down it the same way many of my old ones did. I know it may not mean much from someone who is too introverted to come off anon, but I do care for the safety and wellbeing of the silly little people I interact with online and I did not want to hesitate on bringing to your attention something that I fear could be a threat to that.

With all that said, I do hope you can get something useful from this message. Have a great day/night/week/anything! 😊💜

I apologize sincerely for your past experiences, though my own are that antiproshippers sent me actual real child porn and compared an adult in anime who was canonically mature on top of "oh yeah she's 30" (not literally I don't think) and a character who was about the same age to actual real child porn

this was not the first nor last experience I had with an antiproshipper during my childhood, showing me such things to try to scare me away from proshipper spaces, and when I went to proshippers as a scared 12 year old kid who had no idea what was going on? they were like "oh fuck you're a kid uh Block Them" and never did I even hear a dick joke using the actual word dick in it.

I appreciate your concern, dearly, but it is very clear to me that liking a very gross ship doesn't make you evil or deserving of literally existing, and for the dozens of proshippers who protected me against actual predators online I will die on this hill

none of this is to disrespect your experience, if that is the hill you will die on I will not be the one to kill you, you are my moot and I love you (platonically, probably) and I promise you, if I knew the proshippers who sent you hate for just Not Liking That I would kill them personally

and never feel bad for being afraid, my friend, I promise you I would never attack unless you were truly harming others, even then I would try to reason with you first.

(also if a proshipper says anything about IRL incest/pedophilia/zoophilia being okay they're not a proshipper they're a predator and likely hiding behind the proship banner, ESP if talking to a minor)

[kurlik42]

(I reblogged my previous post to clarify a few things. Again, it's about proship, so I've also put it in "read more".)

Thank you for all the activity on this post! I appreciate your clarifications and patience, now I can see that some of the statements and formulations I've made were wrong. I can see that not everything in that text is comprehensible, so I apologize for my English — it isn't my native language. Since censoring words isn't necessary on this site, I won't use the censorship anymore.

I agree that fiction and reality don't work in the same way and I believe it is fine to explore dark themes in fiction for any reason, as long as it doesn't hurt real people. If certain ships make a person happy and bring them comfort, there's likely no harm in it due to the fact that it's only fiction. It's not always used as a way to cope and it's fine to enjoy fiction due to different reasons, as well as it doesn't necessarily reflect a person's morals and beliefs. Also, as I understood, attraction towards anything doesn't make a person bad, since they can't control the feeling of attraction itself; rather, the actions speak volumes: if they decide to act on the urge and consciously hurt someone real, then they should be held responsible for the illegal act. However, if they decide against it, there's no specific action to judge them for. I believe that these people also deserve help and a safe space, because harassment and oppression never made anyone better, but everyone deserves a chance for a happy life. And of course, any sexual act in reality should be solely performed from consent after every party reached the legal age.

And to answer the question of the user miranova23: although I'm currently not pushed into such beliefs by my close social circle, the topic of proship makes me anxious due to confronting my previous beliefs. I'm not officially diagnosed with moral OCD, however, I'm indeed prone to questioning my morality every so often. So all of the questions I asked are hypothetical — I'm strongly against CSEM and no real child deserves to be hurt (the thought itself makes me uneasy). In case that was the case for concern, the question about monetisation of r34 with underage characters was asked because I wasn't sure whether it's appropriate to gain money from such art despite the depicted characters not being real. But I suppose it's fair to say that it depends on the laws of my country; besides, pixels can't consent, which is why being concerned about this in the first place isn't necessary, so it's better to focus on real victims who should have support and help. Even if so, I'm not going to draw sexualised minors at any point. I'm not judging those who do, since they don't harass real children and, again, just draw pixels, and I definitely will not harass and threaten people over it. I'm only saying that this content makes me uncomfortable and I prefer to skip it respectfully, because your kink is not my kink but your kink is okay. I think that not all kinds of content are for everyone, but it's alright. And yes, I suppose I could use therapy 😅 Perhaps I should learn not to give a fuck about others's business. I hope I answered your questions.

Feel free to correct me if I might be wrong somewhere — I simply would like to have a better perspective on the topic, because I strive to be a better person. Anyway, wish you all a great day!

(It's about proship, so I've put it in "read more" in case someone finds the topic uncomfortable. Take care)

Without negativity, I have a few controversial questions which I'd like to see from some different angles. It's curiosity, but not an accusation by any means — I just question my moral beliefs, so I don't want to cause arguments but a discussion. And you aren't obligated to answer all the questions and aren't obliged to answer at all, of course.

With all due respect, what I'd like to ask is:

Can "proship" be considered a bad coping mechanism? Does the media that one enjoys reflects their morals and beliefs? Also, I'm not sure if that's okay to sexualise and fetishize underage people, even if it's fictional. I understand that it's often a way to cope with trauma, I don't mean to invalidate it in any way and I'm not a doctor, though I can't decide whether it's a healthy way to process it. I once heard an argument that it works in a similar way with gambling and p0rn addiction, as in indulging in fantasies and letting urges control one's behaviour, but I'm not sure if it's really so. Isn't it possible to see ped0phile inclinations in a person through the media they consume and produce? Also, is it okay to monetise drawn child p0rn? Because this content is created specifically with the idea to get turned on by drawn kids, which sounds not so far from getting off on real ones (with the difference that in the first case, it's fictional, so no real kid is technically hurt; however, the attraction is still caused by knowing the drawn person is underage, so the mechanism remains the same).

So all in all, I think there are concerning people on both the proship and antis sides. Which doesn't mean that every person in both communities is inherently bad or good, but I think it's important to acknowledge that there can and will be people who do questionable things from both sides. I also would like to clarify that I'm against threats and bullying over fiction, respect should be always prioritised.

Thank you for your patience, I apologize if I made you uncomfortable or understood something wrong.

[starrbar]

This new term I discovered is such a breath of fresh air. Peacefic, coined by @peacefiction.

God, yes, thank you. Holy crap.

Please, if people want to use this, use it right?? I like my labels to mean something. I can't comfortably call myself proship anymore because it doesn't signify the same thing to literally anyone. I have to reasonably assume that there's a significant amount of people who would genuinely think I'm just calling myself a MAP (I'm not -_-). Like, that's just how it is now. I can't change that. That is the reality of how that label is perceived.

I might start going with neutral/neuship/neufic anyway because I've um, discovered stuff about myself (and about antis) recently. And at least the word neutral is like, meant to be vague? That's fine?

The peacefic ideals are the most important to me. If I tell someone I'm peacefic proship, it should immediately disqualify the connotation of the creep who supports literally everything, even exploitative fiction, and the label combo should also keep the "fiction doesn't equal reality 1:1" thing.

But again I still might not even use anymore proship synonyms for myself because they're going to get fucked by the same problem where my label is meant to give people a quick idea of my beliefs, but it fails to do that and puts a target on me.

Not that I'm the center of the universe or anything. I'm kinda just ranting to the void.

Also this is like completely a shower thought, so feel free to disregard it as me being obsessed with labels and compartments actually, like that's true regardless if I have a point or not lmao—

Why haven't I been calling the types of antis and the types of proshippers I really REALLY don't like "rad-shippers"? Like, we already have this kinda tier-list I've been seeing of inclus, radinclus, and then radqueer. And those terms make sense to me.

So yeah, like...

Proshippers that can't fucking handle criticism of media or how we engage with it, who support explicit rpf of minors, who are free speech absolutists, who jump onto any post that possibly states a dislike for their kink and antagonizes the OP, who think it's okay to trigger antis on purpose, etc.... rad-proshippers.

Antis who think depiction = endorsement no matter what, who think every kink and ship is a direct line to your most raw beliefs and intentions, who think having taboo fictional interests like incest ships or whatev makes you a morally reprehensible person, who reject critical thinking about how and why a story may be insensitive, and/or who think it's okay to harass people for their tagged, properly filtered, or private dark smut... rad-antis.

I dunno! I think it fits. Hell, even ignoring any mention of harassment: I'm so sick of antis who push the narrative that you must NECESSARILY be morally bankrupt and/or predatory for having a rape kink or something, and I'm so sick of proshippers who jump out of their skin at the mere mention of criticism/responsibility and shut down discussions of it.

We're just weirdos on the internet! Just because one person says "I think things should be like this" doesn't mean it WILL be like that if you don't Challenge™ them, and also it doesn't even necessarily mean that person wants the authority to make all their opinions enforceable! I dunno man.

I'm going through a metamorphosis lmao.

[proshippers-against-censorship]

https://www.tumblr.com/proshippers-against-censorship/749092539698757632/see-thats-specifically-what-i-was-talking-about?source=share

First of all, I'd like to say I'm sorry for how offended I sounded in this post. I was offended, and honestly, I still am. I don't understand how any logical person can genuinely consider pedophilia to be such a non-issue as in the reblog you shared, and it terrifies me. The fact people can not only say things like that, but it's a widely shared opinion in this community is specifically why I don't feel safe in proship circles anymore. I've tried to put my thoughts together in a (hopefully) clearer manner.

I think there are some subjects that inherently don't deserve to be treated with polite discussion the same way most do.

You don't debate with people about transphobia or racism because making it a debate implies it's even something that needs to be considered from "the other side" at all, and I think pedophilia needs to be treated the same way. What pedophiles think shouldn't matter in the same way that what homophobes think doesn't matter. I hope we can agree that the fact we've gotten to a point where what rights gay people deserve is considered a political topic is horrible, and I believe we've gotten to that point in part because engaging with the subject at all lends credibility to it. It's a relevant/correct enough opinion that it has to be argued about, and that puts their foot in the door.

Whether or not pedophilia is objectively bad shouldn't even be a discussion, let alone one so widespread and pressing in this community that almost everyone has a statement about it somewhere on their blog. Echo chambers aren't beneficial to anyone when there's a conversation to be had and outside perspectives to consider about a given topic. But you can't seriously engage with people who try to defend pedophilia (offending or not) in the same way that you wouldn't consider the viewpoints of people talking about how they think being gay is immoral. We cannot lend credence to what these people think, and treating the discussion like a debate to be had at all gives them all the validity they need.

These are dangerous things to be posting. I know you probably get the words "normalization" and "politicization" thrown at you a lot, but that's what you're doing by posting/reblogging things like that. Trying to make pedophilia seem like something that shouldn't define a person and isn't innately bad or immoral is normalizing pedophilia, and considering their points at all is politicizing pedophilia. Of course, you as one blog runner aren't going to suddenly make everyone believe that pedophilia isn't that bad, but I don't think it's a coincidence it's such a common sentiment in this community. Nowhere else even engages with the idea, so it doesn't surprise me that neutral/positive feelings toward actual, real pedophiles is all too common here.

There are some things that don't need to be given the dignity of being an argument to be considered, and I believe pedophilia is one of them. You don't genuinely listen to or consider whether Jewish space lasers caused the California wildfires because that's objectively an insane thing to say out loud. Nobody hears that and thinks, "Well, I should at least hear what they have to say to back it up, maybe they can say something insightful." I think we should treat people trying to defend pedophilia with the same attitude.

I've noticed how normal it's treated as in this community, and I mentioned the slip backwards in my original ask. The general consensus on "para discourse" keeps going farther little by little and it scares the living shit out of me. First, I was told that proshippers don't support attraction to real children. Then, I saw that far too large a chunk of the proship community are actually attracted to real children and self-identify as MAPs. Then, I was told they were deeply ashamed and used their blogs to vent about their sicknesses and would never seek out contact with children. And now, I'm being told it actually is okay for pedophiles to be in contact with kids and that they shouldn't feel ashamed of it. We keep walking backwards as a community, and I don't feel safe or comfortable with it anymore.

If you (proshippers in general) don't want people to assume you're a pedophile when there's a community-wide pattern of pedophilia apology and normalization, you have to be loud about disavowing them and excommunicating them from your community. You can't be in a community that's 1/5 pedophiles, defend them with your platform, and welcome them into your spaces with open arms, and then be shocked when people assume you're a pedophile too. Especially when that pattern drives out people who are also staunchly anti-pedophile. It's a serious problem I don't see many people try to do anything about. There are awful people everywhere, but I've never seen a group where they're so loud and visible with it. The fact they feel comfortable doing so here is another testament to how normalized it is in this community, and you as a community really shouldn't let it get any worse. You shouldn't tolerate sharing a space with pedophiles.

-anti anon

A big thing you still have to keep in mind is that paraphilias are not controllable. You don't wake up one day and decide you want to have a piss kink or a sadist kink or anything of the sort. It just kind of happens. And the big three paras are the same way. It's not quite something you choose.

But what you can control is the damage that occurs because you have that paraphilia. Just because you're into piss doesn't mean you are going to piss on your non-consenting partner. Just because you're into sadism doesn't mean you are going to hurt your non-consenting partner. Just because you have a big three para doesn't mean you're going to actually engage with the subject of those paras.

And that's what should be endorsed. Because, frankly, not endorsing anti-contact kink/para acceptance goes against something else I'm also very much so about - harm reduction. Acceptance leads to finding healthy outlets. A lack of acceptance often leads to unhealthy outlets and harm.

And I don't want to ever find myself on the side that leads to the most harm. And frankly, neither should anybody else.

It's like dog cropping. Keep it legal or you'll end up with backyard hack jobs.

[banavalope]

Not to be rude but it’s not really ridiculous for somebody to get prickly when you reblog an article that whines about people softblocking the author for being fine with somebody creating erotic pedophiliac content.

I want to tell you that I genuinely appreciate you being the first of, like, anybody to actually tell me what your interpretation of the article was. It gives me a jumping off point for something I've been thinking about all day, which if you're not in the mood for that feel free to tune out after the first paragraph responding directly to you. Otherwise, I'm just using this as an opportunity to open the floor for discussion.

That was not my takeaway from that article, nor has that been the takeaway I've seen other people have, including people I had to ask in my real life about it. I assumed I must have read it wrong by the strong reaction I got. So I would say that, from my perspective, it was in fact very ridiculous. I also respectfully disagree with your interpretation. To even call it whining I find is an incredibly poor read of it. Maybe there's some layer of discourse I'm not privy to, they left names out so I can't investigate these accused artists for myself.

But this perfectly segues us to what I really want to talk about. The entire article is from a japanese artist aimed at a japanese audience, explaining how the word "proship" is an american fandom centric term that has no specific meaning, and therefore cannot be taken at face value. I understand the people coming at me for reblogging it feel that we all unanimously agree proship specifically refers to being pro incest/pedophilia, but I regret to inform you it's not as unanimous as you think.

As someone who was around in 2015 when the words "proship" and "anti" started to enter the common fandom vernacular, the muddling of what proship actually meant can be pinpointed to bad actors in the MHA twitter fandom at the time, popularizing the use in order to attack people that shipped BakuDeku, or fans who wanted Endeavor to have a redemption arc. This is when the meaning of being "proship" or "anti" began to get extremely conflated.

I'll take a step back real quick to say that the words "pro shipper" and "anti shipper" have been used since the 90s to mean, quite simply, someone who wants to talk about shipping or someone who doesn't. There was no laundry list of ulterior meanings, it was a way to identify who in fandom had no interest in shipping. This is also coming from someone who's been around in these spaces long enough to know this as fact from experience.

Somewhere along the way it started meaning pedophilia/incest/abuse, I find that very suspicious the way it shifted meanings from something so literally innocent, to something so ambiguously ill intended, when you can just say "they fetishize incest" without having to bring shipping into it. You can just call someone a MAP, what does shipping have to do with it. More people should be questioning why that is.

Who benefits from ambiguous terms the most? What kind of people are looking for ways to get around calling themselves pedophiles? Why let them feel safe in fandom spaces by giving them ample opportunity to hide behind something that has nothing to do with them. Shipping isn't your problem dude, you like children, fucking go to therapy. (not a statement aimed at you, the anon)

People are taking issue with the article even wanting to have a nuanced discussion about the word proship, when they should actually be taking issue with the fact nobody knows who our enemies and allies are anymore because we keep inventing new ways to include our personal """squicks""" (for lack of a better word, not huge on the word squick tbh) into it. Just say what you hate, it's fine. I hate people who abuse children, I hate people who abuse adults, I hate terfs, I hate fascists, I hate incest, I don't like pregnancy, eye stuff is weird, death makes me really upset, I think I should be allowed to kiss Rom the Vacuous Spider. Really easy to just say that in no uncertain terms. Anybody of all languages can pick up what I'm putting down.

If someone from another country cannot understand the point you're trying to convey without you first giving them a fandom history lesson as to what it really really means for REAL to be called a proshipper, idk maybe just say you hate pedophiles instead, coward (not calling you, the anon, a coward. I have aimed this at God himself).

And keep in mind too, this is barely a fraction of a tangent to a larger discussion that could be had about this, philosophically. We haven't even touched on the effect media has in real life, the dissolution of fandom minors being able to have safe friendships with fandom mentors, or even how the recent infighting of fandom, and fandom """""Purity Politics""""""" of the last 5 years, can be traced back to decisions made by corporate web3.0 wanting to monetize its 3 biggest platforms SO BADLY that it refuses to create spaces for minors to escape adults. A minor cannot even play roblox without being under threat of a 30 year old content creator existing near them, and I think that's fucked up.

A real plethora of nuanced discussion here to be had.

[goodolddumbbanana]

But you said all of it just from one side and really misunderstood and misinformation.

First, minors harassing davis first. They claimed have some manic episodes and yell and talk all the bad words with davis on DM. Then, They want to davis to stop a *proship*, which obviously he can't, because there was no evidences that that *proship* do their art works on TSAMS, and even that, Davis is just a VA, he doesn't have the power to do the stopping so. Afterthat, they say things about someone ablest on DID people, which davis stated that: *the person who say DID people can't front is wrong, but sometimes, people are uncomfortable with what they don't understand.* only that, and the they talk shit that davis is ablest on tiktok.

After they misinformed and spear lies about davis on tiktok, which as an adult who do business on media, this shit really stain.

When davis can't take it anymore and up all on X, they threatened davis again and one again up all of this posts on Tiktok and Tumblr.

And davis doesn't stalking because just like you look on profiles for ages and information of the people who talk shit about you, it just talk like minutes. And as Davis stated, he only look about 15 minutes, to see all the bad words they said about him. NOT DAY AFTER DAY.

And davis stated, IF YOU DROP ALL THE MISINFORMATION AND LIES ABOUT ME ON TIKTOK AND SAY SORRY, I WILL DELETE ALL OF THIS.

But no, they minors don't do that. Instead, they threatened davis they will suicide and will find his number house. They even say davis call cop on them and they will die or something, but the fact that they said call cop on davis and davis say, oke, let do this.

It really disturbing and disappointing and disgusting just because someone stated they are minors, they can do whatever they want like destroy other lives. And people choose believe it while the truth is so obviously.

I only see people talk shit about the VA like that, while still enjoy the show.

And no one attacked the minors, just the minors do the attacks on alot of platforms at Davis, I repeat.

Also, not really a fan of Davis, cuz he can be an ass sometimes. But lying and spear lies just because you feel betrayed that VA don't agree with you and don't act the ways you want? Grow up, man.

If you straight up say, davis is an asshole. His speak kind of mean. Well, oke. But you pull ablest and things davis didn't do or can't control?

Like Fable and what davis *like*? (That shit is hilarious, and i would like it to.)

It is lie and I hope you realize it.

#well, bet they will block me by now. No regret I guess. If anyone want to ask me, just say anything. #love drama but need to be right drama.

Hi. You mentioned something about some issues with Davis. Could you elaborate what you meant by that please?

Davis has been an issue for a while to me.

For example him and his girlfriend have been abl3ist towards DID systems. He has been shown to support pr0shippers too.

He also stalked and harassed a minor with DID. I believe in the server they also force certain alters to not front. I believe he also f@keclaim3d the system.

Not to mention the Davis google doc where he has doxxed peoples (minors included) socials for his thousands of followers to go and harass and refused to remove the socials.

There are also a ton of things that go ignored by the TSaMS fandom like Davis comparing Bloodmoon to an actual s3rial kill3r which was disgusting. And a mutual of mine was in a conversation with Davis and he had apparently said something along the lines of “watch the fans get all soft about it”

There’s also the issue with them stealing designs and never apologizing for it. For example the original Earth vrchat design being used was stolen. Also the first Lunar design for the thumbnails was taken from luigisbf. I’ve also heard things about them taking the Bloodmoon design from someones oc “Red Moon” though that one I can’t confirm

The mods are something I don’t really wanna get into because me and my friends have been harassed about them before and I really don’t want it to happen again. But F@ble specifically makes me uncomfortable. They have made questionable art with TSaMS characters like Lunar (they said it wasnt tsams lunar yet still added tsams tags and pinged Davis and ec.) They have also put Sun x Moon art in the TSBS discord before (I am fine with FNAF Sun x Moon, but putting it in the TSBS server was a weird choice.)

Davis has also liked Ruin x KC art which is uh 😶

Anyways sorry for the rant

Here are some images of uh “evidence?!?” I guess and I am aware some of these dont count as true evidence, some are just where I got my info from. I would find all of the original evidence but the account got spam reported (most likely because of davis)

(praying the mods dont harass me)

(Said about the f@blekitty situation)

(The Bloodmoon design i believe was said to have been taken from this but this one I dont have much evidence on)

Sorry for the essay 😭

[catboy-syrup]

(vent sorry for sending this to you) ok so on twitter there's these fnf mod accounts and I really liked one of the mods and checked the mod acc daily and we even have a fictive from the mod and a few days ago Ninjamuffin liked this proship tweet and it led to the mod acc going "this mod isn't for proshippers this community isn't for proshippers" etc so I blocked the mod acc and today I learned that another mod I really liked and often checked the development of until the creator put proship dni in his bio got it's own mod acc and it doesn't say proship dni in the bio but both mods make me feel guilty and bad and I hate shipping discourse so much because I can't even like things anymore I'm scared that another mod acc that's all soft and stuff will tell proshippers to fuck off because we have a fictive from that mod too and honestly i want some kind words or something because it was just one tweet Ninjamuffin liked and he isn't even a proshipper I feel like all this was just for me to feel awful and bad and remind me that I'm hated and not allowed to hope for things.

Hey, anon, don’t worry, I don’t mind you venting in my inbox.

As someone who has a shitton of Fnf Fictives as well due to fnf being a comfort media, so we understand how you feel, heck, we have fictives from cancelled/controversial mods, we absolutely understand how you feel. You just have to understand that none of this is your fault, and you hand no control over this. I feel like no matter what, this would’ve happened eventually, the fandom just seems to be full of anti’s.

But don’t worry, you are absolutely allowed to be in the fandom, and you are absolutely allowed to like what ever mod you want. It’s not like they are allowed to stop you from being in the fandom, and how it’s not your fault you have fictives from the mods. I understand the fandom can seem a bit scary now, but a lot of fandoms are scary tbh. If you ever want a friend to talk about fnf with, and one to comfort you about stuff like this again, I’m here for you, and will always be happy to talk to you.

We can’t let anti’s ruin stuff like this for us, and despite the amount anti’s, I’m sure you’ll find plenty of people to be friends with in the community if you look in the right places!

I hope this helped at least a little bit, I’m not too good at comforting people, but I really do hope this helped, as I can understand how this feels a lot, for multiple reasons

[el-sandwich-de-geto]

You keep throwing words around like "minimizing" and "manipulation" and shit, but you're only overexplaining something that's really simple.

Your friend and I didn't agree on something, and you can't stand that. Unlike you with me, though, I don't think Caleb is a bad person, and I'd never accuse them of "manipulating", lying or attacking me over anything cuz I literally don't even know them.

I find it incredible that you people derive such strong emotional reactions from debates, that you think me disagreeing and arguing with your stance is somehow a reflection of my thoughts and feelings of you as a person. That somehow I'm trying to "minimize something you're passionate about" just cuz I don't agree with you?

That's not an attack, that's you having the core strength of a twig. Literally why are you on shipcourse Tumblr if you can't stand something so fundamental?

Also, no, I am not victimizing myself?? My God, you people. I can't even say I literally didn't do something without you somehow tryna accuse me of playing the victim. To be tryna play the victim I'd have to be personally, emotionally affected by this, and I assure you I am not. May be hard to believe but I literally debate for fun, because unlike you, proshipping isn't my whole personality. I don't get personally offended over an anti disagreeing with me; until they start throwing out the accusations, that is.

I am prolly not gonna answer to this anymore (cuz I'm gonna hate seeing the 10 million posts about the same topic on my blog, the autism doesn't like that), but you still haven't actually answered the question.

I mean literally, how do you tell the difference: If you knew two people who both selfshipped with the same character, and didn't know who was the anti and who was the proshipper, how'd you know who's who? What's the difference in their selfshipping dynamics, in their art, etc? What's their 'tell'?

(And also who the fuck said I'm tryna use my demisexuality as a shield? That's just a fucking argument, fool, it's like saying "well my experience of misogyny as a trans person is--". In this case, my experience as a demi is used to support my argument that consent over a fantasy is not black and white, and how inescapable it is, despite the circumstances, when you're the one imagining the scenario. Because logically your brain wouldn't willingly put itself in situations it can't handle.)

Anyways, that's it. My God you guys act like children.

@hunternocedacsgf

hey pooks! sorry to have to answer to you by post but my ass is embarrassingly shadowbanned again (for no reason might i add, i haven't posted anything weird), so i am not allowed to comment.

first of all, thank you sm for taking the time to reply! /gen/ i didn't expect any anti to, so i appreciate it.

secondly, well, how do you know the difference then? how do you know proshippers actually romanticize the crimes? are you sure they aren't joking? playing a persona? playing a fantasy of their own? (which there is nothing wrong with! everyone who selfships does that!)

furthermore, since you claim to NOT "romanticize their crimes", do you go around making sure to tell everyone you talk to that you DON'T support the character's crimes? isn't that a little dumb? lmfao. i'd think everyone would be mature enough to know you obviously don't support rape or murder or wtv irl without you having to say it, it's a... surprisingly common belief despite what you might think! /lh/ most people i'd say think that not committing crimes is very hip and cool! :D 🤙🏼

also, what does "romanticizing" even mean? finding a character who kills 'cool' (most characters do that in fiction) isn't "romanticizing" enough? i'm sure you've found a character who kills 'cool' at least once.

anyway, that's most of what i wanted to say. thank you again!