#the s2 finale convo already made no sense

[bellamysgriffin]

in the mood to confess a sin so im gonna admit that I cannot find it in me to gaf about gregory and janine getting together anymore with the weird contrived way they’ve been dragging out this “slow burn”

[transmutationisms]

i agree that a lot of the critiques of s4 are baseless, but i haven't seen a lot of people acting like stuff is coming out of nowhere. like the consistency of themes doesn't seem to be the issue. i guess it's that the dialogue feels a lot less nuanced and you can make arguments either way for that. the thing for me is it doesn't feel like we're covering new ground. everything they're telling us we already knew. i am biased bc s2 was my favorite (which seems to be a common sentiment) but it feels like s3 onwards has just been reiterating points we already knew without building upon them that meaningfully. the decline of empire stuff has come into play a bit more in s3 and s4 which i like and they built towards it really well, but character wise i don't feel like we've learned anything that valuable in the past 1.5 seasons?

i disagree with that. kendall spends season 3 trying to play knights on horseback, leading to him finally offloading his guilt about the waiter to his siblings, leading to season 4 where he seems to have lost that shred of humanity that made him feel guilty over it; i think that's pretty important information to learn about him. roman went from proposing business-marriage to his father (season 2) to deluding himself into thinking he could just playact as the chosen son (season 3) to actually gaining the corporate position he wanted and going insane over it. shiv is working out an actual viable way for her to survive in this world beyond "go through dad," and everything between her and tom this season is new ground. even connor has had some critical beats in very little screentime (the wedding convo with willa, buying logan's apartment, etc). i acknowledge greg has been foundering for a while and im sorry to greggirls for your loss but frankly i personally never really cared about him the way i do the siblings.

also, i can't really read the political storylines and the psychological explorations as being separate from one another. like, roman and mencken is political commentary, but also a really important psychological beat for roman. same with shiv and matsson; same with kendall and his new tech infatuation; same with connor and the developments in his presidential run. if the political commentary is accomplishing something, it's because the character writing is accomplishing something, and vice versa. to me this sort of political-psychological monism has always been what makes succession tick, both in these storylines and in the broader way the show situates familial abuse as a function of the larger capitalist social matrix.

in general i guess i would question what type of character development we expect from a show whose psychological premise is that people don't fundamentally change. to me this was what made an episode like 'honeymoon states' so brutally effective: it's a reset in many ways, only with the centre of the universe gone forever, and the remaining characters finding new ways to make many of the same old mistakes. i think this does convey new information about the characters, and i think that sense of cyclical psychological claustrophobia is very much on purpose. you might still think it's executed poorly, or you might just dislike it as a narrative engine for a tv show—fair, i'm not going to try to talk you out of that. but i disagree that this season hasn't told us anything important, either about the characters or the political realm they operate in.

like i said, i do have more sympathy for dialogue critiques and i won't pretend none of the convos in season 4 have been clunky. i also do have some issues with season 3 (misuse or underuse of guest stars and secondary characters, a few episodes i don't think go anywhere, etc). personally though, i think season 4 has been stronger and tighter overall so far.

[alphinias]

(I’m not sure you got this I think I sent it to you) Im so curious to know if the writers are gonna make it seem like Kie had a thing for JJ since season 1 or if they’re gonna make her start catching feelings for him and she realizes the major shift in her feelings towards him and starts to see him in a different light and she’s like oh no I’m falling and it kinda freaks her out because the only thing we got in season 1 was her saying “did you tell JJ” but that honestly could have been taken two ways either she didn’t want JJ to know because she did have a crush on him or she didnt want him thinking she would be easy and kiss him too or about breaking the no pouge on pouge macking or maybe she didn’t want to hurt JJ’s feelings because she rejected him when he tried the locked door and then we got the moment of Kie hugging JJ in the hot tub but that’s honestly what any friend would do in a situation like that so I can see why it can also be taken in a platonic way it wasn’t until season 2 that I started feeling a vibe and shift in Kie’s feelings towards jj when she told Luke do you have any idea how special your son is and then when they were teaming up in the season 2 finale and also having the surf trip convo she realized JJ is a lot like her and wants the same things she wants which is to travel etc and he protected her from getting hit with the machete which led to JJ almost drowning and Kie realized if he died he would have died protecting and trying to save her so that pulled out feelings she didn’t even know were there and she realized she didn’t want to lose him she was so scared so all of that really made it easier to open the first episode of season 3 with Kie starting to look at JJ in a romantic way…

You had sent it! Just haven’t had time to do anything but skim a lot of my anons just yet as I try to catch up with the excitement from the stills + date so if I haven’t answered a lot of anons that’s why! Especially ones like this that I have a lot to say about because they take me a while to write out.

I’m also really curious which angle they go with this. With JJ it literally has to be a thing where he’s just always liked her or else it won’t make any sense. With Kie, they have a little room to make it what they want. I’d also say the only thing I took as for sure hinting at any form of developed romantic feelings in S1 was the “did you tell JJ” and especially her acting and delivery in that scene. I don’t think any other explanation makes sense other than that she’s always at least subconsciously been looking for JJ, but this is outer banks… and more isolated, especially early, scenes like this have a chance of not ever being made to made sense. Unfortunately. And I don’t think Kie knows how much JJ likes her at ALL but I could also see the explanation that they had a confusing moment at some point they both tried to ignore. An almost drunk kiss, etc, and being kissed by JB reminded her of that (and JJ in turn took it as a “well that door is locked”). I don’t think they’ll make that type of thing canon this late but it would make sense.

Overall S1 left kie’s feelings ambiguous enough that it was more easy to say that she could already actively have a thing for him. S2 complicated things a bit more. I wouldn’t say there was any overt added evidence that Kie has always liked JJ, just that they are romantically compatible. I also think they really wanted to be careful and not get the pokie Jiara wires crossed as anything too dramatic or to make it look like Kie knew she didn’t like Pope too early. Their fault for making kie’s decision make no sense in 1x10 because then they had to try to fix that. Anyway, I took what we were presented with in 2x10 especially more as Kie starting to allow herself to view JJ as a legitimate option for the first time. I think most likely they’ll go the route of her not really viewing JJ as someone available as an option to her until now, but personally I’m a fan of the headcanon of their being long time subconscious feelings on her part. She was looking for JJ in a partner without realizing it.

[stabilo0boss]

Ep 8: absolutely fucking insane, I have never been this shocked at anything - I was certain Rina wouldn’t get together til s4 I did NOT see that coming

I’m not going to lie I was looking forward to a few more eps of angst and drama and pining before Rina endgame in s4 but I’m not mad…

Even though there are some things I was hoping to see (Gina reluctantly coming to terms w her feelings for ricky, some sort of tension between them, etc) paced over a few eps, I think the finale did touch on these points, just in a more condensed way than I expected.

I think I’d have found it more satisfying if rina ended this season on the same page about their feelings but not expressing it yet, for different reasons, setting up for s4 confessions … this is a personal preference bc I love a long slow burn and the build up > established relationships generally - I think what actually happened worked well and was a fitting end to both ricky and ginas arcs for the season.

So far, we’ve seen ricky pining and realising how strong his feelings for Gina are, while Gina has been less clear in her feelings towards ricky and focussed on saving her r/s w ej, until ep7 when I think she realises that ricky has feelings for her and she starts to acknowledge she never got over him (eg her disappointment when he lies, her saying friendly fibs are ok, her convo w ricky at the beginning of ep 8 about wanting to know where she stands and her saying ‘she’s done’). I think she was waiting for him to confirm his feelings, and when he didn’t, she was clear with him about how she felt and gave him a final chance - which he took !

Bc we already knew exactly how ricky felt (she’s changed him and she’s what he knows about love, he isn’t going to confess his feelings so as not to burden her and is willing to pine in silence) her giving her perspective, paralleling the s2 flashback, made perfect sense. It’s very true to ginas character that she would be straightforward and honest, which is coincidentally exactly what ricky needs - clear confirmation that she likes him and is allowing him to reciprocate that.

Ricky not confessing actually is the culmination of his arc this season, maturing and being selfless re Ginas feelings - we also pretty clearly see that he’s hurting and pining over gina during opening night, but only makes a move when it’s obvious that she wants him to - he’s not doing what he did in s1 and putting his feelings first. He kisses her first the second that he CAN

I will say that I would love to know what went down in the month we didn’t see - were ricky and gina interacting like in the rest of the season? Did some of the tension from earlier (like gina avoiding rickys bday surprise) and the fact that ricky claimed they were faking their feelings come up?? How long did it take gina to accept her feelings for him again?? I think a lot of the answers can be inferred but I would have liked to see it - basically what I expected and hoped was that it would touched in the first few eps of s4.

Overall excellent end to an excellent season, and ginas speech and the kiss was a great ending … cannot wait for s4 and rinas secret dating while playing leads era…

[the-greendalehumanbeings]

Ok but rewatching s2 just makes it more obvious kate & anthony’s motivations at the end of episode 5 make zero sense.

the show tries to pass it off as kate and anthony sacrificing their happiness to make edwina happy but that just doesn’t work. for starters anthony really didn’t give a shit about edwina’s feelings much less her happiness. and anthony’s honour was non-existent especially at that point. so that reason was irrelevant

kate insisting they get married did not make sense for her character. i know we are meant to believe its bc edwina says she loves anthony- but she wasn’t privy to the convo where anthony basically promises kate he will cheat on edwina with her. not to mention kate is already trying to save the engagement before that. and I love show!kate but she was definitely willing to make decisions for edwina bc she believed it wld protect her, despite whatever edwina wanted. kate wants a love match & happiness for edwina. and when anthony finally admits he cannot give that to her (like kate had been saying), she tries to change his mind?? she is smart enough to know that edwina marrying a man who wants to screw her sister will end in disaster. even if kate believes it is just lust she has no reason to believe that anthony wouldn’t then cheat with someone else. like idc if they end up cheating but show!kate is not naive enough to believe that A and E would hv a pleasant marriage.

anthony’s entire characterisation made no sense either. he sits silently while the Queen and everyone calls it a love match. and at the end of the episode anthony finally acknowledges he wont make edwina happy or love her. so him deciding to marry her anyways bc its what kate asks him to do is a bit hard to believe. he knows he cannot provide edwina the happiness that kate wants for her. he is meant to love kate. surely he realises that making kate watch as he married her sister, had children with her - would torture her more than breaking off the engagement wld. like anthony should have been willing ‘lose’ his non-existent honour and take society’s gossiping to spare kate all of that. at this point it’s pretty clear that nobody will be happy in this situation. all three of them would hv grown bitter and resentful of each other and the situation. anthony & edwina would have grown to hate each other. and the entire fall-out is so weird bc the show doesn’t bother to acknowledge that most of this was anthony’s fault?? like fine edwina doesn’t care abt anymore (lol you can be mad at more than one person). but kate never asks anthony why he proposed to edwina despite claiming to love her??

the whole bangle drop moment was entertaining. but the entire build up to the wedding just made the characters look like idiots (and not the fun kind). the show had to give lady danbury a different personality to s1 and even ep 1 for the wedding to happen. and i’m still confused on how much violet, benedict and colin knew or didnt know abt anthony’s feelings. it’s very clear that the writers wanted the drama of the wedding + forbidden love & to do that had to sacrifice character development and good storytelling.

the engagement shld have ended after the dowry reveal and the sharma’s conflict shld have been abt that. edwina deserved the truth & be able to make her own decisions. and kate should not hv even been responsible for these financial decisions as she is not the parent. that way the show could hv actually shown Mary parent her children & hv the Sharma sisters talk rather than all of them giving grand speeches to each other. and kate and anthony could hv had time to develop an actual emotional connection (rather than angst) as well.

[sashannarcy]

hi op what are your thoughts on uhhhh *spins wheel* sasha's season 2b arc (hope that's not too broad a subject)

edit: putting this under a cut bc it got LONG but. enjoy (???)

okay I gotta start by saying I didn't expect the depth of it at ALL; I knew Sash was featured prominently in the ending episodes of s2 based off of what my friend informed me, but like. I was not expecting 4.5 episodes to be almost ENTIRELY centered on their character arc and design (the .5 being the first half of True Colors).

that being said, I think Sash's 2b arc is PHENOMENAL bc of the way the nuance in it is written so incredibly well. this character is about to perform the most antagonistic move that they've pulled in the whole series so far, which is the act of betraying both Anne and Marcy in order to support Grime and get them home safe, if they so choose to go home (as an aside, I think at this point Sash has probably decided that she likes it more in Amphibia than back home, and there's one line that I'll get to that seems to be VERYYYY indicative of that. and if this is the case, it makes sense to me why Sasha would want to help Grime at all and why they don't really seem quite eager to follow Anne and Marcy back home. but! important to note that they still give those two the choice to go back if they wish, because at the end of the day Sash loves them and wouldn't try to force them to stay). and yet we see!! this back and forth!! this FIGHT that's happening in their mind, the way there's a flash of guilt they express at the very end of The Third Temple directly after confirming to Grime that things are still going according to plan, their convo w Anne at the end of The Dinner, the entire plot arc of BotB, and ofc the Sashanne duel in True Colors. I want to make an analysis post for each of these episodes because they're so fucking PACKED w shit to analyze, but I'll try my best to touch on all points here.

obviously we first learn of Sasha's plans to betray Anne and Marcy in The Third Temple. but what's important is that throughout the entire episode, there's several points where Sash switches back and forth between manipulation and honesty. I can talk abt this w confidence just based off of the whole. *gestures vaguely at myself.* but Sasha's initial apology in this episode was sheer manipulation, I think we all know that. however, when Sasha has to do their final test in the temple, those few lines they exchange w Anne in the moments before they raise themself up off the floor and launch themself into battle... those were genuine. they know they've been a shitty friend, and they're willing to accept that. so you have this game, almost, where Sash keeps flipping between putting on a mask to ensure they can keep up their facade until Grime secures the city and genuinely acknowledging their behavior and knowing that what they are doing is not going to sit well w Anne and Marcy.

so with that, The Third Temple sets the premise for the rest of the episodes of the season as far as Sasha's character arc. The Dinner is such a good fucking episode to follow with, because it hammers in the fact that Sasha has not changed. what it ALSO hammers in is she is still acting in her own self-interest - to put it in her words, she wants to get the friendship back under control. they still lash out, they still have a short fuse, they're still heavily opinionated and rough around the edges and prickly because this is an environment where they feel threatened. they're finally reuniting with the two people that mean the absolute most to them, only to realize they've been left out of the narrative. also not for nothing, but their trauma in Reunion got joked about in this episode which led to them blowing up over it, and like. I'm giving that one a pass bc man. anyway. at the end of the episode they say they like who they are, but it's said with a frown, which I think is fucking GENIUS. because there's an actual meaning to this line - they don't ACTUALLY like who they are. we have plenty of evidence that they don't like themself. what they MEAN is that they don't want to change, because that would mean giving up a security that they need in order to keep themself together. AND THIS IS DEMONSTRATED CRYSTAL CLEAR IN BOTB. they literally PURPOSEFULLY detach themself from Anne and Marcy bc they know they want control but they ALSO know that their behavior is just going to hurt the other two, so instead of compromising, they just go hey I'm gonna do my thing and you guys can do yours. and we'll both get what we want. and if that's not evidence that this character is fucking GRAPPLING with how to grow and change as a person, idk what is

and then. sigh. we get to True Colors. ofc Sash goes through on their betrayal - they're loyal to a fucking T once you dig beneath the surface, and they wouldn't just not follow through for Grime. what is absolutely KEY here is the fact that they are still leaving room for their friends' best interests, as in they're not trapping them in Amphibia but rather explaining how they're gonna help Grime take over, implying they'll go back home once they're done, but if Anne and Marcy wanna go back now, that's cool. if she didn't give a fuck abt their wellbeing, she'd just keep them there w her. but she doesn't. and then Anne starts retaliating, and. well. we ALL know Sasha does NOT do well with criticism of any kind. so they just go okay I'll send you back now then (and this is STILL an action motivated by what they think is best for Anne). BUT THE LINE. OHHHH THE SUPER IMPORTANT LINE THAT MADE MY HEAD SNAP UP AND MADE ME PHYSICALLY GO "YIKES" OUT LOUD. is Sasha saying "say hi to your parents for me." it's like a goddamn full-on sucker punch packed into one sentence - seven words, and all of a sudden we know for sure this kid does not have a good home life. I could go into elaboration on Sasha and the way she views familial ties throughout the show, but I won't bc that's gonna take this already super long answer and make it even worse. regardless, Sasha has once again flipped the switch and is indulging in their worst behaviors, which is full on controlling and holding power to act on what THEY think is best in the moment. and the moment Anne snaps, the moment Anne yells about Sasha being a horrible person, literally EVERYTHING shifts and the reaction from Sasha is VISCERAL. and what I mean by that is. it's not just the look in their eyes at those words. it's not just the sudden and complete loss of meaning, of self, of motivation after they've lost Anne's support. it's not just the way they stare at their own reflection in a sword that represents the color of the person they're trying their hardest to protect. it's the way that for the rest of the goddamn episode, they spend it trying to do the one thing they fear the most: giving up control. I'm gonna elaborate on this whole aspect in a different ask bc I was asked abt it, but the way Sasha acts towards Anne after the fallout, especially at the beginning of the duel and during the confrontation w Andrias, is fucking monumental. they struggle so much with how to change their own behavior, yet the very moment they lose the support of the people they've been trying so hard to love and care for in their roundabout way, they can change the way they act. because who the fuck is Sasha Waybright without Anne Boonchuy and Marcy Wu? in her mind, no one. she doesn't have any idea of who she is outside of this, so ofc she can act differently when she's thrown out in the cold. after all, it doesn't take much to warp an identity that doesn't exist.

tldr; god. how do I sum this up. Sash's 2b arc is smth that's incredibly intricate and complex from the way they constantly flip between desperately needing control and feeling guilty that this is the way they need to live. and True Colors is able to finally demonstrate to us the final piece in how they operate - without their friends, they lose sense of who they are, and their personality comes undone. in 4.5 episodes the writers managed to give us 1000 aspects to their character that we hadn't gotten to explore, and we can see that Sasha was never meant to be the villain. so. final review is that's some good shit👍

[rascheln]

Dr. Keila Levy

It’s getting kinda embarrassing how many times I’ve listened to Marsfall and how much Keila’s motive and backstory still confuse me, so I figured I’d messily compile the instances she or someone else talks about herself and get some clarity for my own thoughts and understanding of her somewhere along the way. Wall of text under the read more. Spoilers ahead for s1 and s2, if you wanna actually check out the podcast PLEASE do so.

- Keila served in the Israeli army as a field medic (mentioned in a convo with Jacki and in her character profile.)

- She’s finished her studies to become a doctor and her stationing on Mars is supposed to be her residency (so she’s likely in her late 20′s? early 30s?) - She has an inherent distrust of all AI, most notably Andi (but also nanobots in medicine and Faye). (I’m guessing in her years as field medic she didn’t rely on AI to help patch up people.) - She struggles with her duty to protect life as a doctor, even after repeatedly trying to sabotage the colony. There’s a conflict between what she’s supposed to do for Faye vs who she is as a person/professional. She messes up Faye’s installation and almost gets caught by Melissa; she poisons the colony with Martian Lung, but then tries to save people from dying from it; she almost kills Melissa with a sedative (which only gets prevented by Chip); she almost kills Jacki with a sedative, but can’t bring herself to give her a lethal dose after all.

- (s2ch10)Geoff: “Yael Levy went to the Moon alone, because her own daughter, one Keila Levy, sold her spot for a pretty penny on the black market.” So both she and her mother had spots on the Lunar Base (which apparently were expensive and highly sought after, since Geoff mentioned paying a lot for his sister and niece). She sold hers on the black market (wonder if that’s where Geoff got those tickets and this info?) and let her mother leave without her. Clearly this was around the time someone approached her about transporting Faye to Mars. - Since she made her deal with Faye (or Faye’s creators?) to transport Faye onto Mars, she already knew about the cave painting and the holograph and already knew that something is on Olympus Mons, since she talks to Faye repeatedly about transporting her there. -(s1) She tells Andi: "You want to grow up? Then suck it up, pain and all,” which is apparently sth her mother used to say. Implies her mom wasn’t exactly a nice person. - (s2ch15) “I’m close, my love. It will all be worth it when I can hold you in my arms again, and you’ll call me a good mother.” Is she referring to her daughter here? I’m not quite sure tbh. It’s just so weirdly worded? What daughter calls their own mom “a good mother”? Is she referring to someone else here? - (s2ch15) It is finally revealed that she had a daughter who died on earth (likely young): “I had a daughter on Earth. She’s...she died. (...)  It was my fault. She wanted to come here, and she was so excited to see Olympus Mons, but I told her it was too dangerous. And now...she’s gone. I thought maybe if I got there myself, in a way she’d see it too, and she’d forgive me.” - Her motivation to help Faye and to become part of the holograph is to “turn back time” and “to bring her [daughter] back”.

My confusion comes from the fact that before this, all everyone mentions is her mother and so as a listener we’re probably supposed to automatically assume that’s the reason she wants to help Faye- she does use “my love” at one point, which I found an odd term to use for her mother, but makes a little more sense to refer to a young daughter. It still doesn’t quite work imho.

So I still feel confused by her backstory. The way I understand it, her daughter died on earth and Keila blames herself for it. Her daughter was old enough to know about Mars and Olympus Mons and wanted to go there and in her grief Keila decided to take the only chance she saw to get her daughter back in exchange for letting her mom go alone to the lunar base and sacrificing the colony’s inhabitants and likely all other AI and human consciousness on Mars.  However, she gets conflicted about her decision when it actually comes to pulling through when she arrives: She’s a doctor, a rather traditional one at that, who has sworn to save lives, not to kill people. So she hesitates and messes up, again and again, because she can’t just commit to wiping out everyone, especially the more she actually gets to know everyone. I feel like this translates a bit weird to how I perceive her character in the series- her main states of emotions seem to be “indignant” and “annoyed”, which?? might be a tactic to conceal her real feelings?? but makes understanding and empathizing with the character also really difficult for me, bc she doesn’t let her real emotions slip through a lot. It makes her seem very wishy-washy.

I think my main issue is that the build up to the reveal of her real motivation for her actions is muddled by her dying so soon afterwards and all the deceptive storytelling before, which up to that point implied that she was doing this for her (possibly abusive, at least not exactly loving) mother. Which obviously didn’t make a lot of sense, but there also just wasn’t a lot to go on to understand her desperation and willingness to assist Faye.

Like, in the script it says that she’s finally telling the truth when she talks about her daughter. But the way it’s timed, there just isn’t as much of a lasting emotional impact- maybe it’s supposed to fall flat, because while this is an important moment insofar as she’s finally showing vulnerability, she’s still responsible for the deaths that happened at the colony and for endangering everyone by bringing Faye to Mars. She literally brought a military AI meant to be a consciousness-absorbing power to control a “weapon” no one really knows the capabilities of to Mars for very selfish, likely impossible to achieve reasons. In a way, she might not really deserve the time to get sympathy for having lost her daughter, because she chose to sacrifice so many people on the off-chance that she’d be able to see that daughter again. And her one loss doesn’t exactly justify her actions.

Whatever happened to her daughter on earth must have been highly traumatic, but without establishing who Keila was before she came to Mars, we just have this husk of a person to contend with, who it’s hard to feel sympathetic for or fully grasp the why of her actions. Maybe that’s just not supposed to happen?

The thing is, I do overall enjoy the way a lot of characters don’t directly talk about their past, reveal information only in passing or are straight up unreliable (Chip) in how they portray their past. It just doesn’t quite work for Keila, since she’s literally one of the villains- so I hope she’ll make a reappearance in old recordings or in flashbacks through the holograph maybe? Her whole connection to Faye is so weird, too, since it’s such a clear power struggle. And for what? idk idk, maybe she’s just supposed to be a severely conflicted character, who chooses to do awful things to others and tries to justify it to herself, while also being manipulated by Faye and looking down on Faye/seeing her simply as a tool to get to her goal. 

[multimetaverse]

HSMTMTS 1x08 Review

The Tech Rehearsal was a great ep. Let’s dig in!

Great Rini scenes tonight that did some heavy lifting to get them back to a place where they can almost be open with their feelings. Richard Bowen and Nina Salazar- Roberts being the reason the other goes by Nini and Ricky? Reader, that’s the cutest shit I’ve ever seen. The show really brought out the big guns with them knowing each other since Kindergarten. I think most of the casual audience is now shipping Rini, if they hadn’t already, so mission accomplished for the writers

Tim said on instagram that the writers wanted to show that Ricky and Nini had known each other since Kindergarten and it makes sense to use the Troyella rooftop scene and Gabriella’s line about meeting someone in Kindergarten and just becoming friends and use that to tie it all together. But it does somewhat conflict with Kourtney and Nini’s convo in 1x05 that made it sound like Nini only met Ricky in 7th grade. Now it’s true that Kourtney may have just meant it in the sense that 7th grade was when Nini started to have feelings for Ricky but if that’s the case then the writing should have been more clear

As Nini sang in All I Want, EJ is perfect on paper and in Miss Jenn’s notes she wrote that EJ was the perfect Troy on paper; it’s like poetry it rhymes

This is the second ep in a row where a main cast member has been missing. I do wonder if the writers felt that they had done too much work with Rina and keeping Gina off screen was the easiest way to set up a return to Rini. The writers have never been subtle when it comes to ending ships; when it came time to remove EJ as Nini’s love interest they quickly villainized him. I don’t think they want to undo the good work they’ve done redeeming Gina so keeping her off screen is the next best thing

EJ and Carlos had a fun dynamic. EJ trying to emote was so funny as was him stealing Miss Jenn’s notes, it really is his signature move. Matt Cornett does really well playing a dope. I liked that he gave Carlos a confidence boost. Nice to hear Carlos speaking Spanish

Also we now know that Carlos Surname is Carlos Rodriguez. Rodriguez, which means son of Roderick and originated from the Visigoths who conquered Spain, is the 4th most common surname in Spain but it also seems likely that the writers had never decided on Carlos’ last name and just gave him Frankie’s last name which is lazy

EJ Caswell is suffering from Lucas Friar and Jonah Beck syndrome; the handsome, athletic, and kind of ditzy love interest for the main girl who really doesn’t have much else going on when they’re not being shipped with the main girl. Lucas never really got much development but the writers could rely on Farkle to help balance out the show and in S3 the GMW became the Riley and Maya show so it didn’t really matter what Lucas got up to anyways. Andi Mack suffered greatly from never developing Jonah, especially in S3 once he was no longer Andi’s love interest his plot line was a total trainwreck. What made things worse is that the the writers couldn’t build up Cyrus like the GMW writers could build up Farkle since Cyrus’ story was restricted because he was gay. Luckily HSMTMTS has plenty of main characters and is less restricted so it doesn’t drag the show down so much that EJ is just kind of there. I also wonder if the fact that EJ is a senior plays a role in this, sure they can do S2 as the spring musical but what about S3 when EJ would be graduated? If he won’t be on the show long term then there’s no real pressure to develop him or give him that much to do

Big Red appearing behind Miss Jenn was the funniest moment of the ep for me. I also love every time we hear an adult refer to Big Red as Big Red because it’s just so silly

Big Ashlyn (I think that’s their shipname) remains cute. Very smooth of Ashlyn to use Big Red’s compliment to flirt with him

Loved The Role of a Lifetime, Lucas did great, nice little nod to Kate having played Glinda, and loved the ‘’contractually obligated dream sequence’’ line

Interesting motif of ruins tonight. The El Rey theatre is in ruins, on stage the backdrop is a ruined Roman city, and Miss Jenn must face the fact that her acting career and dreams are in ruins before she can start rebuilding her life

Dara can really sing, it’s hard to believe that Kourtney was just supposed to be a one off role. I thought her initial reaction to Nini potentially leaving was realistic but I’m not sure her calling the Dean to come and watch Nini perform was the right move to make it up to Nini

I liked the little Seb and Kourtney interaction. I know there’s been a lot of speculation that they’re setting up a genderfluid Seb story line but I’m deeply skeptical that’s something Disney would allow. And if they were willing to do that then I don’t think they would have allowed Seb to become a main character in S2

I really liked that Gina told Ricky via text that she would have to leave earlier than planned and that Nini told Kourtney and Ricky that she was interested in going to YAC. It was awful in Andi Mack when Buffy left early without telling her friends and then ghosted them for what was supposed to be two months in universe and it was weird that Andi never told any of her friends about SAVA so I’m glad HSMTMTS isn’t making the same mistakes

Looking Ahead:

Just for a Moment sounds great, Joshua and Olivia did such a great job. It’s great that Tim is giving the actors a chance to write their own songs, I hope we see more of it in future seasons. From a video Joshua shared on twitter we can see that they were working on the song during the filming of 1x02. The song must have been selected before 1x08 was written since Nini’s line that it was just a moment is clear set up for the song

The YAC dean is in the audience, does Nini flee and its Ricky who finds her which is why EJ is singing part of breaking free? Or is Ricky gone because he sees his mom in the audience?

How Gina’s move gets undone will be interesting to see. For Andi Mack at least they could say that government cutbacks led the Driscolls to return but if Gina’s mom has to follow natural disasters then it wouldn’t be so easy to just move her back to SLC

The show is flirting with disaster with the YAC plot. If Nini gets in then she will inevitably have to eventually return to East High and in the meantime she’ll be cut off from all the other characters and whatever focus YAC gets will necessarily take away from whatever is going on in East High. There’s a reason Andi Mack only introduced the SAVA plot in the final few eps, there would have been no way to actually pull that off if the series was going to continue 

I really do hope we get something with Seblos in the final two eps. 1x05 was great and I’m happy that they were able to do so much textual stuff already but that shouldn’t be an excuse to not touch on it further. I’m sure that with Seb being a main in S2 we’ll get more but we need more now in S1

Until next week  ep Wildcats

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Master Post on HOW Beth Will Arrive

Okay everyone! Happy Saturday. I’m gonna start out by saying that most of this stuff has at least been discussed before, either by me or other TDers. It just came together for me last week in a way it never has before.

Do I think we’ll see Beth in 8x10? Overall, YES. I think there’s a VERY good chance of it. Maybe I’m wrong and we won’t, but in case we do, I wanted to get this posted today.

So it started with me having a convo with one of my fellow theorists (of course it did ;D), @frangipanilove. Actually, it was the same convo that led to the Sorghum Post. Go read that if you haven’t.

@frangipanilove asked if I remembered what the “how the harvest gets home” theories were about. I never did any “harvest” theories because I didn’t start my account until after S5 ended, but I remember reading them. Daryl and Aaron fell into the wolf trap in 5x16, and on the side of the white trucks, the slogan read “how the harvest gets home.”

The prevailing TD theory was that the harvest was Beth and she’d be returning in 5x16. Obviously she didn’t. The basis of this theory was two-fold. It came from 

1) all the wolf symbolism around Beth (party when the wolf comes home, blond girl on tree in 5x15, Red cloak in Beth’s cell in 4x01—Red Riding Hood, etc.) and 

2) from Morgan’s wall in 3x12, Clear. One line on his wall reads, “Transport BEF/Transport Harvest.” So, “BEF” and the “harvest” are synonymous. Most people think BEF is Beth anyway. It can stand for Blue-Eyed Female or several other acronyms that would work for her, some of them even having to do with war. And it sounds like a slightly skewed version of her name.

This idea of the harvest = Beth is bolstered by what @frangipanilove found in the Sorghum post: the Danville, KY distillery, who also produces Blue Heron whiskey, also produces a “Harvest Rum” made from sorghum. The symbol for most harvests, no matter what the crop actually is, is usually wheat. (Type the word “harvest” into google and then look at images. You’ll see what I mean.) And fermented wheat is what alcohol is made from. We all know alcohol on the show = Beth. So it all works together.

So, while this may be super-obvious to some people, it occurred to me that the theory wasn’t wrong at all. About her showing up in 5x16? Yes. But about her being the harvest? No. I think the “How the Harvest Gets Home” trucks were 100% a foreshadowing of Beth’s return. The white trucks/wolf trap is how the harvest/Beth will get home.

No one has done theories on this since 5b/6a (when the wolves invaded Alexandria) because we just didn’t know where to go with it when she didn’t show up with them. But that doesn’t mean the theory is wrong. Go with me on this:

White Trucks

I’ve thought since S7 that Beth would come north via a boat coming up the coast. She still may, but there’s another component here that needs to be considered. We’ve seen a LOT of white trucks that look exactly like these Harvest trucks in. We saw one with Bob in 4x13. Yes, Alone. 

Remember that Bob was a major Beth proxy. One of the major ways he is has to do with this flashback of him being alone on the road before Daryl and Glenn find him. Think about this, guys. He sleeps on this white truck and almost as soon as he gets off it, Daryl and Glenn show up. So the white truck lead directly to him finding TF. 

No one has ever been able to make anything super-definitive of the numbers on his truck. I will say that there’s a 4 and a 5, an R, and then an 8 and a 9. Could it be that these are season numbers for Beth? She was in 4 and 5. The R could stand for “returns” and then 8 and 9. Just a thought. No idea how the 66 at the bottom would figure in, though.

Bob also connects to Carl now, because he died of a walker bite, and the clock behind him pointed to Carl’s death by the same cause.

We saw a similar truck in S1 and in Coda. Yup, that’s right. I did a post comparing the trucks HERE if you want to check it out. I wasn’t sure exactly what the point of the white trucks were back then, only that I saw the parallels. Now, it’s more clear.

In Crossed, when the group is on their way to Atlanta to rescue Beth and Carol, we see Sasha and Ty talking in the back of this truck they use. (It’s the same one Daryl and Noah drove out of Atlanta in 5x06. This one isn’t completely white on the outside, but the cab is, and the inside looks the same.) 

It looks almost identical to the one Rick, Glenn, Andrea and co escape from Atlanta in, in ep 1x02. 

But what ends up happening with the truck in S1? They take it back to Atlanta to get Merle and…it disappears. Why? Because Merle takes off with it.

We know there are tons of parallels between Merle and Beth. Merle was the first character to disappear in the show, only to return later. He was presumed dead and showed up two seasons later, alive and well. And with an enemy of TF (the Gov). Not to mention, handcuff parallels anyone?  

So I think they use these white trucks because something about them = how the havest/Beth is transported. Because Merle was transported in one first. This is another example of Gimple building on symbols in previous episodes.

I’m going to talk about something else for a minute and then I’ll come back to this.

Morgan and Fear

Why talk about this? Well, for one because this line about transporting the harvest came from Morgan’s wall. Second, because in that same episode he said something to Rick about people wearing dead people’s faces, which sounds eerily like a reference to the comic book Whisperers, who tend to cut off walker faces and wear them like Halloween masks. (Ew!) 

Remember that Gimple was 100% responsible for everything written on Morgan’s walls in Clear. He alone worked on that story line (specifically for that episode, not necessarily other Morgan story lines) in the same way only he worked on Beth’s story line in S2. That, combined with all the other Beth/Morgan entanglement  we’ve seen (such as his after-the-credits scene in Coda) shows that the two simply must be related.

Now we have the fact that Morgan is crossing over into Fear the Walking Dead. In a way, it makes perfect sense that he’s the crossover character. Many people (including me) believe the characters in Fear will end up being the Whisperers. And they foreshadowed Morgan having an arc with the Whisperers using this line back in Clear.

I’ve mentioned before that I don’t think the Whisperers will be called Whisperers in the show. I think Gimple is merging the Wolves and the Whisperers. We’ve had a lot of evidence for this, especially lately. I mean, we had the wolves, this huge evil group that were there and gone, and whose name starts with a W. We also have a foreshadow of their return (X). Why would the show create two bad groups that both start with W? Doesn’t make much sense.

Back in S5, we saw them do this with the Hunters. In the CBs, the Hunters were a group of cannibals that TF crossed paths with. In the show, they did the Termites instead, but it was based on the CB Hunters. It’s just a way to make the story line unique to the show, but keep it based on the CBs. I think the same will be true of the Whisperers/Wolves. The story lines will still be there for sure. They aren’t taking out the Whisperers. But it will be changed for the show so it’s not identical to the books. We’re already seeing that because Carl won’t be in it, and he was a big part of the Whisperer story line. 

I’m also side-eyeing what Kirkman said, “There are big, huge stories coming up that you might think will be massively altered because of the absence of Carl,” Kirkman told EW. “But we have known these story lines have been coming for years. There are plans in place to make it all work. The loss of Carl doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re going to be losing big swaths of the comic book story. It means that there will be some differences to them. ” (Source) As soon as I read that, I thought of this Wolves vs. Whisperers theory.

Then there’s the theory I’ve addressed a couple of times via Asks. Many TD-ers believe Carl’s Whisperer arcs will be given to Daryl, and of course Beth would take on Lydia’s roles. While I’m all for that theory, my one reservation is that I doubt the Whisperers/Wolves will show up in a big way this season (we’re still in the midst of AOW) and I really feel like everything points to Beth’s return THIS season. So I’m just not sure how it would all play out.

But let me finally bring this all together for you. Complete picture:

After talking to @frangipanilove about the harvest stuff, I was talking to my brother. We were discussing Morgan, the cross over, and Fear. I was explaining that many people think the Fear characters will be the Whisperers, and how Morgan will probably end up finding them, etc. My brother then asked if I thought Beth would return with the Whisperers. (He knows all about my TD beliefs, of course. ;D)

I don’t know why, but something about the way he asked it made it all come together for me. Morgan running into the wolves and Beth somehow being among them would fulfill all the Beth/Morgan entanglement we’ve ever seen. We know Lennie James (and Melissa McBride and perhaps Norman and other TWD actors who cancelled the Australian con) was filming in Texas (X), but perhaps the Wolves/Whisperers eventually come to D.C. using the white harvest trucks.

Want more evidence of Morgan’s imminent wolf entanglement? Check out this pic @wdway found from 8a:

There’s a W carved into Morgan’s gun. Coincidence? Um, no.

Does all this mean that Beth will actually show up with the wolves or that we won’t see her in S8? No on both counts.

I don’t know how it will all play out, but I still think all the evidence points to us seeing her in 8b. There’s all the 8x10 stuff that I’m crossing my fingers for. There’s the faux magazine covers, which suggest we’ll see her resurrection THIS season. There’s all the 8s we’ve found upon re-watching, all the water/baptismal symbolism, which the number 8 represents in the bible. Just tons of it.

(P.S. In Rick’s/Carl’s Old Man Coda this season, they talked about a “Harvest festival.” Just saying. ;D Might means we’ll see the harvest at Alexandria th is season.)

Also, there’s the license plate Aaron takes off the wolf truck. 

Notice the 8x16 on it. That suggests something about the wolves in the finale of S8. I know there are some people who think we won’t see Beth until the finale, and they may be right. I hope not. I hope we’ll see her sooner. But if they’re right, at least she’ll have returned in S8, right?

(Another detail: @frangipanilove told me that the stars on the Alaskan flag on this license plate show the Big Dipper and Polaris. I never realized that before. Remember Carl told Judith to use the North Star to find her way HOME.)

But the other thing is that one of these harvest trucks were slammed into the gates of Alexandria in 6x02 when the wolves arrived. And Alexandria is TF’s “home.” So I think “home” and the harvest trucks go hand in hand.

(Something I just noticed looking at this picture? The building behind the truck is a burnt church. Carl just died in a burnt church, y’all. The harvest really ought to be showing up any time, now.)

So I’m hoping we’ll see Beth in 8x10 at Oceanside, but that she’ll actually arrive at the gates of Alexandria in 8x16. That would be a great parallel to how Morgan arrived in S5, and confirm @katkhaos’s theory about Morgan being the first coda, and Beth being the second. It would also establish even firmer parallels between Morgan and Beth.

The Wolves are HOW Beth will get home, but that doesn’t mean she’ll still be with them when we see her. I’m not going to go into details about this because this post is already long, but @wdway has found some amazing parallels between Oceanside and S8 the past few days. Mostly they’re connections between Tara at Oceanside in 7x06, Swear and stuff we’ve seen in S8, as well as connections she made to Beth stuff back in S4 and S5. I’ll probably post about it eventually, but not today. My point is that I think Tara in 7x06 was in every way a proxy or foreshadow to Beth. So I still think Beth will most likely show up at Oceanside. All the rest of this is probably back story for how she’ll end up there.

And that makes me super happy because we already know we’ll see Oceanside/Aaron/Enid in 8x10. Fingers crossed the two of them run into Beth there!

Finally (last thing, I promise!) I’ve harped a lot on how the sequence of Bob’s death is important, right? We see a male character die from a walker bite, and the very next episode we see Beth awaken at Grady. Now, in S8, Carl has died from a walker bite, so hopefully the next episode we’ll see Beth.

The same idea holds true where Beth and the wolves are concerned. TPTB told us in 5x16 that Beth would come home via the wolves. (They even focused on a shot of cans hanging from the truck, which were a big symbol in Still and Alone, and you can see the harvest slogan on the truck behind them.)

This may be the most obvious thing I’ve ever said, but it can’t possibly be a coincidence that the last thing we hear in Still is “there’s gonna be a party when the wolf comes home” 

and then right after Beth is shot and disappears, the group actually runs into a group who call themselves THE WOLVES. 

Even for those who don’t know what we do about Gimple’s attention to detail, it’s kinda ridiculous to think that’s a coincidence, don’t you think? Beth may not have appeared with the wolves in S6, but she will return with them at some point.

It’s just a matter of when.

Thoughts?

[flusteredkeith]

Keith and Shiro Discover the Secrets of the Universe

(alternatively, how sheith could happen, especially despite the ‘brother’ line)

so after finishing aristotle & dante discover the secrets of the universe, i found myself thinking hardcore about sheith (of course) and basically, i feel like the way ari processes his feelings throughout the book is a feasible way keith might fall in love with shiro. and thus, i decided to make a little post about all the soft and tender feelings of how i could see sheith falling in love. ❤️

(very very minor spoilers of a&ddtsotu ahead. mostly just a mention / the vibes from the book are sprinkled throughout)

imagine this:

keith does see shiro as a brother for most of the time he’s known him because shiro’s the closest thing to a family he’s ever known. so from the beginning, when they get closer, keith’s just like “perhaps this is what family feels like :)” – at first.

because keith has his family background mystery hanging over him and possible abandonment from his father (kind of like ari’s brother situation from the book), those things occupy a lot of space in his life and take precedence, and since they’ve occupied that space for so long, he doesn’t intentionally make a lot of room for processing other big things/feelings. wondering about his family is a cloud that’s constantly over him.

at some point he meets shiro, and of course, as they build trust/closeness, he’s attached to him. they’re attached to each other.

meanwhile, shiro starts falling for him, especially because he admires so much in keith.

i can just imagine shiro telling keith a similar line from the book “you’re not afraid of anything” and that being one of the reasons he likes this boy so much

but he doesn’t tell keith how he really feels at all because he knows that (1) keith is way more preoccupied with his family origins, so he doesn’t want to put that burden on him, and (2) keith sees shiro as the only family he knows, and he wouldn’t want to ruin that for keith or make it weird because he would have no one else to fall back on. he’d rather just be a supportive friend first and foremost.

so he falls for keith quietly and sweeps it under the rug like he always does with any emotions that may be harmful to someone else

even before he leaves for kerberos, he wants to tell him so badly, but just doesn’t. they hug instead and he hopes to see him soon.

then, when he’s back from kerberos, a little later than planned and a little worse for wear, shiro has seen SHIT™. so now shiro also has way too much on his plate that needs to take precedence over any personal feelings/desires.

they go through the rest of s1 and beginning of s2 this way.

then comes that moment when keith says “you’re like a brother to me.” it makes sense, it’s not even new. shiro is pained but he understands. he’s known this forever now. he gets the BOM off his back and runs to him anyways when red starts attacking.

but, now that keith has shed some light on his family history, there’s less stuff in the way of his feelings, except maybe his own uncertainty / possible denial

so when shiro disappears this time, he has a bit more space in his heart to give these uncertain feelings the proper thought and examination

also, maybe he even has a convo with hunk, who’s just like “dude. have you seen the way you look at him? i’m surprised you didn’t know? i thought it was obvious” or something

in shiro’s absence, keith figures it out. he’s got the basics of his family history out of the way, he’s made some friends other than shiro who have become family to him, the definition of family has already changed and is continuing to change for him

with all this reexamination, it makes sense now. he’s loved shiro this whole time but because of a mix of not understanding it fully and being afraid of the idea of ACTUALLY being in love with shiro, hadn’t come to fully accept it until now.

THEN, when they reunite, he finally tells shiro, “you used to say i’m not afraid of anything. but i am afraid of something. you.” because he had no idea how to handle the idea that he might’ve been in love with shiro this entire time

shiro just chuckles and says, “about time,” and cupping his hand around the back of keith’s head, pulls him in for a kiss

also i’m going to fic this if it’s the last thing i do

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Thoughts on Terminus and the MSF

Okay, so if you haven't read my Morgan/Beth/Terminus post yet, go read it HERE. I just think that keeping Morgan and Zeke entanglements in mind might help give what I say here more depth. 

***Also, I will be revealing some spoilers here. They're not script spoilers but rather location spoilers. So not super-specific. Still, if you don't like spoilers, stop reading now.***

I know others have posted metas about the MSF, specifically about how it's going to be 88 minutes long. Let me start by seconding what they've all said and reiterating that there's no way that's an accident. As someone who has done a lot of both writer's editing and video editing, you can make something any length you want. You can cut it down or beef it up and somehow get it to the time you're shooting for. When TWD has longer-than-normal episodes, it's because the content trumps the time limit, and the show gets special permission from AMC to have a longer episode. We've seen them do this MANY times in the past few seasons. So what it boils down to is that Gimple can make an episode pretty much any length he wants and AMC will back him.

So could this be a coincidence? Sure, but no. Nothing will convince me that episode 8x08 being 88 minutes long is accidental. Why not an even 90? And how many 8s have we found re-watching the past few seasons? Um...about a billion? Yeah.  

I suppose I ought to officially throw out there that I kinda doubt we’ll Beth before the MSF now. You all know I was super-hoping for 8x04 to be the one. Now that it wasn’t, I’m kinda not thinking we’ll see her until 8x08. Arguments could be made for 8x06 (to line up with 6x06) and 8x07 (because that’s when Glenn was revealed alive in S6) but overall, I’m kinda thinking MSF now. Obviously I would be happy to be wrong, but I won’t be holding my breath for these next two episodes.

So some time ago, the spoiler site posted this pic:

It's quite obviously Terminus. Although it's blocked, the brick front is the same. Even the foliage looks identical. Here are some pics for comparison:

And could they be using this location to film, but it will be some other place in the show? It's possible and we have to acknowledge that, but I REALLY doubt it. Think of it this way. Every so often, the show will tell us (usually on TTD) that a location was used that has been used before. I remember in 8x02, they talked about a location in the woods being close to where Dale hid the guns from Shane in S2. That's an awesome little factoid, but everything in those scenes looked so much the same (and also so different) that we'd have never known that if they hadn't told us.

Terminus is VERY visually recognizable. I don't see the show using the exact same brick building and trying to call it something else. The fans would all take one look and go, "yeah, nice try. That's Terminus." And from this picture, they don't seem to have changed much about it. So I'm thinking this is actually supposed to be Terminus.

Also, the same week this was posted, Daniel Newman, who plays a Kingdom solider, posted on his IG instastory about filming at Terminus. His words. (Sorry, while people in my group saw the story, no one thought to save it, and those things disappear after 24 hours, so I don't have it for proof.)

Then there's the fact that it's...Terminus. All the buildup around it had most people (yours truly included) believing that Terminus would be a big deal in S5. That maybe they'd even spend a lot of the season there. Obviously that wasn't the case. It was there and gone in two episodes. Kind of weird given all the buildup to it. Many of us have predicted that Terminus would eventually be relevant again and that Beth will probably pass through there at some point (X). Even though those are just theories, them filming at Terminus again definitely catches our eyes.  

Then there's all the stuff I talked about on Wednesday, with the weirdness of Morgan around Terminus, and the fact that we saw train tracks near Ezekiel in 8x04. Let's talk about that for a second.

In S4, they established very heavily through the maps and signs that all train tracks led to Terminus. It was the termination point, or convergence of all the paths/train tracks, right? We're starting to think that was a much more important symbolism than anyone, even TD, realized.  

We're thinking that a lot more happened at Terminus than we saw, and all paths will eventually lead back there. I'll come back to that, but here we are seeing train tracks in S8. That alone I might point to as a foreshadow of the story heading back to Terminus soon.  

But remember what I said on Wednesday: that a juxtaposition is being set up between Morgan as the weak character, and Ezekiel as the meek or emotionally strong one. Well, here, we see very obviously that Zeke, Carol, and Jerry do NOT follow the tracks. They cross them. And who's the only other character who crossed over the tracks rather than following them to Terminus?  

Beth.

So Ezekiel is being paralleled with Beth here. (Clarification: Daryl did cross the tracks with Beth at first, but he later followed them with Rick and Michonne to Terminus, so she remains the only one in S4 who NEVER followed the tracks into Terminus.)

Also remember that there were a lot of A’s around Terminus. First the train car, then Gareth painted one on FG's church. If A= Atlanta, well, Terminus isn't far from Atlanta. All the A’s could point back to stuff that happened in Atlanta that we've haven't seen yet. And as we said in these two posts (X, X), Beth would have to pass through the Terminus area to get to the coast, and we still think she'll probably come up the coast and through Oceanside.  

@thegloriouscollectorlady had some interesting thoughts about this. She pointed out that while Beth wasn't at Terminus, when RIck and Daryl arrived, the others were. Glenn and Maggie's group came into Terminus very peacefully. Obviously it didn't stay that way, as they ended up in the A car too, but they didn't show us what happened with them. Just told us later. So maybe Rick and Daryl's stories are the ones most connected to Terminus. 

And that's interesting given what happened in last week's episode. We're just seeing more and more stuff come full circle from 4x16. In 4x16, entitled A, Rick and Daryl became brothers. 

Now we're seeing the first real rift between them since then. 

In 4x16, they entered Terminus. Now, for S8, they seem to have filmed stuff at the Terminus location again. In 4x16, the sheriff's hat fell off Carl and was put on Beth, proclaiming her the new sheriff in town. In 8x08, who knows? But do you see how the narrative is coming full circle?

I've also always thought the weirdness of Sasha probably started at Terminus. (Sasha/Tyreese Theory) That's mostly because of her weirdo convo with Father Gabriel in 5x16. He mentions the Termites and that Bob was consumed because of Sasha's sins, which makes no sense whatsoever based on what we saw in S5. So I've always thought there was more that happened at Terminus, specifically concerning Sasha, that we didn't see. I have no idea what it was, but it was something that contributed to her guilt and that FG seemed to want to use to blame Bob's death on her. Still no explanation for that convo in 5x16.

And why do I think Terminus might show up in 8x08 specifically? Well, I don't think we know for sure that this filming at the Terminus location was specifically for the MSF. And it wouldn't really matter anyway, because they've already told us they filmed things out of sequence for S8, and were often working on multiple episodes at once. So there's no way to pin down which episode it was for.

However, let's return to Crazy Tattoo Guy. Remember him? Two things that make me think we might be returning to Terminus in the MSF.  

First, there was a dialogue parallel to him between Rick and Morales in 8x03. I posted this edit: Exact same wording, but opposite words. Once again, we've come 180 degrees from where we were. Mirror theory.

Check out this guy's face: He has an 88 tattooed there. And yes, I know 88 can mean lots of things. It can mean nazi, which is fitting given what he was doing to the Termites. But what if it also means that in 8x08 (which is 88 minutes long) we'll finally understand what the hell was going on with Terminus?

Remember that Gimple said Crazy Tattoo Guy was connected to bigger group of baddies, who I believe to be the saviors. (Source) So there is definitely some back story/connections there that have yet to be revealed in the show.

In that same interview (linked above) Gimple also said there was “a lot to that character.” Really? Because we saw him torturing the Termites, then be let out of the C train car by Glenn, then die. How is that “a lot to that character?” It’s obvious to me that they’re planning to return to him and explain more. 

It’s yet another loose end from S5 that Gimple promised would be explained, but still hasn’t been. And per what we’ve been shown in the show, this one has little directly to do with Beth. (Only TD believes otherwise.)

Even if you look up the dictionary definition of the word Terminus, things are kind of interesting:

Notice how it mentions time. What if Gimple always meant to go back to Terminus. What if it’s the termination point for this crazy time arc that started in S4/S5? I don’t mean that in a negative, she’s-gonna-die-there way. But all tracks lead to Terminus, right?

We also learned this past episode that before Negan took over leadership of the Saviors, they were a band of wild animals, more or less. And we know because of Morales that they roved down into the Georgia area. So it’s very possible that Crazy Tattoo guy and those with him were a part of the Saviors, but that was before Negan took over.

And because there were defunct cop cars at Terminus, many of us believe there are connections between Grady and Terminus. And then there's the fact that the red car seen at Terminus was also spotted in front of the white cabin Emily filmed at in S5, which scenes we have yet to see. 

See how it all works together?

So there's no way to tell if we're interpreting the details correctly. It may not play out exactly as I've laid out here. (Probably won't, in fact.) But we have a lot of loose ends that need to be tied (and per Morales', we know Gimple always ties up his loose ends) plus some evidence that we might be revisiting Terminus sometime soon.  

Now we just gotta sit back and watch how it all plays out. 

Oh, one more great point by @thegloriouscollectorlady: they're doing this Red Machete story now, right? (X, X). The red machete had it's significance in TWD because of Gareth and Terminus. Now they're calling their mini episodes that. Coincidence? Just saying. ;D