#that's the beauty of fandom. we can take the canon text and do whatever we want with it

[bangtanjjks]

Ah.... I think a part of the reason why the ACOTAR fandom have felt more hostile lately is because people can never just peacefully making up scenario of two character or more kissing around here without getting someone else write a whole ass essay with "proof" on why that pair will never work™ ..... You can't ship anyone in peace in this fandom without having One (1) person trying to debunk your ship😭 once or twice is fine. But with every single ships that's not canon? That's just tiring.

Example:

*some post about rhysta and how their dynamic will work if they're in a relationship*

Some person: making a 5 paragraphs essay on why rhysta will not work in a romantic relationship backed with proof of excerpt from the book like they're quoting the bible

I get IT!!!! WE'RE FANTASIZING ABOUT TWO FICTIONAL CHARACTERS KISSING. this is NOT the academic/scientific community, I do not need to have you peer review the text of two pair of characters fucking just because of canon

[dotthings]

"Open to interpretation" does not mean you get to tell Destiel shippers how to see the canon, Karen

After the spntwit drama this week I think it matters to emphasize again how hard the antidestiel hatedom was going against how Jensen rolls when it comes to interpretation.

antidestiels continue to behave as if they believe "open to interpretation" means they themselves can dictate to other fans how to see the canon, and they call Destiel shippers and Misha "disgusting" just for speaking our viewpoints of the canon.

Destiel shippers give our take on the text and antis go "well you can't because JENSEN SAID--"

They very obviously do not listen to what Jensen says. Here is Jensen at Dencon 2021, where he pretty much clears the runway for fans to interpret however we please and his praise and appreciation for those readings: “This is the great thing about the show and I think the relationships and some of these characters is that they’re open for interpretation. If you find identity in a character because of whatever reason, fantastic! Great! If that encourages you to be a better person, or to love someone a little harder, to forgive someone for something, fantastic. That’s—that’s I think that’s one of the beautiful things about what we do is that we get to encourage people on a variety of levels.” -Jensen Ackles, DenCon October 2021

(Antis: But you CAN'T, because JENSEN SAID--)

Antis are stuck in a loop of their own making.

This is not the first time Jensen has conveyed his support for fan interpretation.

Jibcon 2015:

We also know from reports from a virtual m&g a short while after SPN ended that Jensen said he and Misha talked about the confession scene beforehand, and they "didn't want to over-define it" and "the artist isn't going to stand next to that piece of art and tell you what to see. You should be able to see, and it should be able to mean what it means to you and that's--that's the beautiful thing about art." (There is no video, this is pulled from fan reports, but as far as we know this is accurate reporting).

Antis: but you can't because Jensen SAID--

blah blah blah

Yes we can and it's not that we need Jensen's--or anyone's permission--however it's just so heinous how severely antidestiels stomp all over Jensen's respectfulness and protection of fan readings and his appreciation of that, and their lying about how he rolls. They are making very negative insinuations of him, yet somehow everyone else in fandom is the problem but them.

It doesn't add up.

"But you can't say Destiel is real and there was queer coding because JENSEN SAID--"

But Jensen said he's completely cool with how we see it.

He said so.

I have a permit. Jensen signed it. See?

Get over it. Find a new hobby. Move along.

A further thing--note my highlighting on excerpts from an interview with Jensen Ackles about Big Sky concerning the Beau/Jenny relationship. (TV Insider, 1.18.2023)

The phrasing should sound familiar.

Yes, that's right, he's used similar language to speak about Dean and Cas. And this is for a het ship.

"leave the audience wanting more" "we gave just a little bit" "but do we need to play it out in a graphic sex scene?" "a kiss wasn't necessarily needed" "let's tiptoe for now" "fired it up in a way that made it not so sexual...two humans really, truly connecting. It wasn't just like, oh, let's rip each other's clothes off."

Put that next to "I don’t think lust is involved with the romanticism" "there's some people that might try to sexualize that" "it was two sentient beings essentially" (Dencon 2021, Vancon 2022)

Isn't that interesting. (Also isn't it interesting he called it "romanticism"?)

Jensen also said something somewhere about how he would like to do a romantic comedy so long as it involves killing zombies. He doesn't hate romance. It's just that he likes genre and action stuff. He's not against, whether it's queer or straight romances.

He's also said he'd like to do a rom-com slash western playing opposite Misha Collins.

Not telling Destiel shippers what to do, but along with antidestiel misinformation spread, the Destiel lane is justly notorious for flinging accusations at him and I think it's relevant that he speaks about a het ship using similar language, and it's relevant how supportive he is of queer readings.

one last thing, this is old, from Jensen's time on Days of our Lives, but he wasn't against playing a queer character.

[trapped-in-the-valley]

My open letter to the Moomin fandom

cw: swearing. Not a lot of it, but it's there.

I don't know if I'll ever actually post this, but I need to get this written down because I just can't with this fandom anymore and I need to get my emotions out somehow.

Before I actually get into it, I want to make one thing clear. This is not a personal attack against anyone. You are allowed to have your own opinions, to ship who you like, to do whatever you want to, really (try to stay on the legal side tho), just like I have the right to the very same things.

You can disagree with me, you can even tell me just how much you disagree with me, as long as you stay kind and respectful about it. That's just how people work. We're not gonna agree on everything, and that's fine. Great even. Otherwise the world would be a very boring place.

Mostly, I love this fandom. The people are very open and welcoming and the vibes are absolutely top notch. There are a lot of very skilled and passionate people here who fill this fandom with joy and life and creativity.

But ever since I first joined this fandom, there has been a certain attitude on here concerning Snufmin, the most popular ship in this fandom (for understandable reasons), that has irked me every time I came accross it in any form.

"Well, obviously they're more than just friends, you have to be blind not to see that."

I hate that fucking phrase so much.

Now, before I start going into my biggest problem with this wide-spread attitude, I'm gonna look at that expression for a second. "more than just friends."

Usually I try not to get snagged on phrases like this, because it's really just a common expression (even I use it occasionally. probably.) and people probably don't mean it that way, but in this specific case it's actually relevant to the larger problem, so bear with me for a bit.

"More than just friends" explicitly implies a sort of ranking or hierachy. That romantic love is inherently more valuable than platonic love. It devalues platonic relationships despite the fact that they're actually equal to romantic relationships.

This is a very important point here. Equality. I am not trying to put either of them above the other. In my opinion, neither of them is more important than the other. They're just two of the many ways you can express your love for someone. Both of them can be equally deep and important.

Okay, it's time to finally take a look at the actualy contents of this phrase. The part of the attitude that has been chipping away at me for the past few years until the dam finally burst.

It's not a secret that, while they're incredibly close, Snufkin and Moomin are not canonically a romantic couple. Now, would Tove have made Moomintroll and Snufkin explicitly a couple if she had lived in a time where that would have been possible? Maybe. We'll never know, since we can't exactly ask her anymore.

But regardless of Tove's intentions, what we ended up with is this beautifully ambigous relationship, that could be anything, really.

The relationship is beautiful. It's close and trusting and endless and admiration and adoration and written in the fabric of the fucking universe. But it's not defined.

It's very fitting for a relationship that serves as an allegory for longing to be that way.

Longing isn't defined, it's complicated and deep, and everyone feels it differently and it can be felt regardless of what kind of relationship you have with the person or the place or the thing you're longing for, which is why the ambiguity of their feelings for each other and the deep love and complex emotions they feel is a perfect representations of a very complicated emotion.

Now, to make one thing clear: I'm not bashing anyone for shipping these two. Again, the relationship is ambigous, and a romantic reading of the source text is just as valid as a platonic one or everything in between.

There's a lot to like, and they make for a very compelling ship.

My problem is with the people who act like Snufmin is the foregone conclusion. The only valid interpretation.

The people who don't tag their fanfics as Snufmin because "It's basically cannon."

The people who post stuff about how you have to be stupid not to see that they're obviously a couple. How the people who prefer a platonic reading are willfully ignorant or blind to the elephant in the room.

Maybe it's the aromantic in me, the person who was told growing up again and again that that you had to find romantic love to be complete, that was made to feel like something was wrong with me because I didn't.

The kid who was told "they must be more than friends."

Who was made to feel like platonic love, the only kind of love I felt, was inherently less valuable, less cherishable than the romantic kind.

So yeah, maybe it's the aromantic in me, but I haven't been a huge shipper ever since when I was around 18. I'm not anti-shipping, but when I'm in a fandom most ships just end up on a scale from vaguely positive to vaguely negative for me, with most of them ending up in the neutral zone.

I'm not gonna seek out any content of the ship specifically, but a good piece of fanart is a good piece of fanart and a fanfic with an interesting storyline intrigues me, regardless of whether or not it has a ship in it.

Snufmin was on the upper end of this scale for me when I first joined the fandom. Not even neutral, but vaguely positive. They're really cute together, to the point where I'd actually seek out content specifically for it being Snufmin (There's some really cute animatics out there. 10/10. would recommend) and even came up with an entire AU based around the ship.

But as the years went on, and the comments and untagged fanfics and this fucking attitude in the entire fandom went on and on and on, it all started piling up. Chipping away at me. Discomfort started to settle in, and I felt more and more uncomfortable, less welcomed in a fandom that used to be a source of comfort for me.

I started to hate this fucking ship. Genuine hatred, which is a rare thing for me. I guess I blamed it for the loss of something dear to me.

It got to the point where I left this fandom almost entirely, only staying tethered to it through the fact that I still enjoyed and consumed the source material.

I've been getting better about it recently, slowly finding my way back through the things I originally found joy in while trying to avoid everything else best as I can, but that's my personaly journey and I'm not going to bore you with the details. Just know that the hatred is gone, with only occasional annoyance left.

The attitude that caused it though, isn't. It's still there, just as it was back then.

Again, I'm not telling you to stop shipping Snufmin. I get it. It's a great ship and I'm glad you find joy in it.

But the next time you post about it, try not to devalue the just as valid platonic love these two can feel for each other.

I'd appreciate it, and while it's probably not the most popular opinion, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

Thank you if you read this basically-a-breakdown until here. It genuinely means a lot to me.

All your best,

Trapped-in-the-valley

PS: Tag you fucking fanfics. Please.

[onewomancitadel]

I generally reject comparisons based on superficial traits in common, and in saying that I do get a funny feeling in my tummy about Morrigan-Flemeth and Cinder-Salem as dynamics which reflect each other, in that I think the former kind of elucidates the thing going on with the latter - right down to Cinder's job to hold the Maiden power. There's something about the storyline of being primed and directed for a very specific magical task which erodes her humanity, the conflict between fantastical aspirations and who they actually are as people and their humanity. That's kind of why I like the idea of the Dark Ritual in Morrigan's storyline, in that it's an act traditionally of love subverted, turning Morrigan into that magical vessel, but if the Warden romances her, it's both of those ideas realised at once.

Flemythal and Salem also have that thing going on where they're secretly goddesses (but not), hiding the reality of the burden placed on their daughters, along with this real ambiguity about their intentions towards them - did Flemeth never really intend to possess Morrigan? Morrigan passed her "test" and put Kieran's life before her own, against the odds of her isolated and abusive upbringing.

Whatever the bargain is between Salem and Cinder (characterised as some sort of power struggle in V8 which involves Cinder replaying the torment of her former master), I do like the idea that there is some sort of sinister affection, and that is evidenced in canon - Salem's very particular care with her training the power and the arm in V4, Cinder's exultation at Salem's return in the V8 finale - which is allowed to exist, or exists as a consequence of whatever the dark imitation that is their mother-daughter ("fairy godmother") relationship. There's a peculiar sort of leniency in some ways that Salem extends to Cinder specifically which also is in turn why she punishes her as she does: I take this to mean that Cinder is how she expresses whatever relationship she destroyed with her daughters that she cannot access anymore (hence it's significant that she's the Maiden, like the Four Maidens who find Ozma and are just like their children).

I think it's a much more interesting (and more canonical) reading in the sense that it's an emotionally and thematically grounded dynamic, not just Cinder as Salem's creature (sympathetic to Cinder's side, sometimes not) or Cinder and Salem as mere "business partners" (this is a protective view that Cinder espouses, but I'm not sure she really believes in her bones). With Morrigan, as a companion who's on your side, I think a sympathetic view for her (and problematising Flemeth's treatment of her) is much clearer: she doesn't have that problem of acting as an antagonist, although her harsh personality might be offputting at first, and so my reason of comparison is not because they are meaningfully connected as texts but really more as an emotional/fandom comparison - and to contrast how their narrative roles (antagonist/companion) inform fandom readings. It is especially interesting given the fact that we now have the conclusion to Morrigan's arc and more broadly Mythal's, but even with Inquisition you could see the direction of her story: she takes on the mythic burden and redeems it. If you play the ending where Solas is redeemed, she resolves Mythal's inheritance in a way that could not be done before. Although Veilguard chose not to bring back choices beyond three from Inquisition, a softened Morrigan, in my eyes, reads as much more profound with a Warden romance, which pairs quite nicely with Solavellan as a narrative complementary duo: the most effective idea here is that by seeing with clear eyes, past first assumptions, can the wound be healed (@/corseque put it much better than me). It's very fairytale-like, if not Beauty and the Beast. (In this case, I also prefer it as bookending the beginning of the series with its end).

So you can see why I find it interesting to compare to Cinder and Morrigan - because yes, they are similar characters in that they're ostensibly femme fatales with a lot more going on emotionally, mythically, initiated into old magic - but also because Morrigan was rewarded in the story in the way I feel is most appropriate for such a dynamic, even with such a hugely spanning game series, and though I think Veilguard fumbled some of the complexity of Morrigan-Flemeth dynamic ("regret", please) in its fashion, the ultimate throughline stayed pretty true to what I thought was appropriate. I prefer a reading of Morrigan-Flemeth that isn't easy, because it never is easy: all of those feelings of pain and hurt sit with love, and fear, and in Morrigan's case, a very particular and special magical inheritance that she has to do something with. The real cruelty of the Well is that the hunger for knowledge bred into her would tie her to her mother's magical will. It's not carried into Veilguard, but the implication is essentially that in inheriting the fragment of Mythal from Flemeth, she would not really be in danger anyway; the Evanuris operate with moral rules outside traditional boundaries, to the point of amorality; it does not bother Flemythal to use her power to bind Morrigan, and yet she loves her. (That this reflects the Mythal-Solas dynamic, and plays into the redeem!Solas ending, is not a coincidence). Flemythal bore a daughter who would eventually grow beyond her intentions for not just inheriting the power, but for doing the world right.

And that's the Cinder-Salem dynamic to me, that the redemption, and her "end", has been cultivated in a vessel she intended to use for vengeful and destructive and self-annihilating purposes, amused by the ambitions of this mortal child. In that, an emotional reconciliation too. Cinder's redemption in this story is important to me because it would upend Salem's intentions for her in a deep way, and evolve her story past a very basic idea about how the Maiden power works. I like the idea that Salem intended it to be a way to eat her cake and have it too - accessing the memory of her daughters, without the full emotional commitment, resolution, with them and with Ozma - but once she made Cinder her daughter, and Cinder has the opportunity to self-actualise outside of extended childhood (torment, over and over, endless midnight), then she can't escape the consequences of that. But it's a good thing.

I normally prefer to read texts that interact with each other consciously - but in this case, there is something really interesting to be gleaned from another story that explored this magical mother-daughter scenario in a similar way, especially in terms of how clearly Morrigan is received as a character versus Cinder, and it's satisfying to me because I know that Morrigan was in the end handled properly. It's an important dynamic to me because I enjoy where a real-life complicated relationship marked by abuse intersects with these mythic pursuits, and what is necessary in their stories is to be humanised - more than a vessel and mere will - and to humanise those around them.

[griefabyss69]

THREE!!!!!!!!! OF THEM!!!???

Hello!!! Thank you for asking about this one I'm pretty excited about it! This is a newer WIP - Another steddissy started this year after a conversation with my friend. It's going to be a longer fic, because when I write in Chrissy's POV I'm incapable of keeping it short. This one is already 11K and honestly has just begun LMAO... I'll probably end up breaking it up into two fics because I can see a natural stopping point in the middle of the plot. Her backstory is a little made up in the way that fandom already has taken what little we were given about her and came to it's conclusions. I take the religious trauma of it all a little further, and so while it's not explicit in the text, she is from one of the c*lty sects of christianity, and is at the part of her story/healing where she's making moves to get out of it. Here's a long piece of it bc it's hard enough to decide on what to share!!!: (Contents: allusions to the shitty parts of christianity, rated T for vague horniness, canon levels of drugs)

When Chrissy had become friends with Eddie, she had liked how it seemed like their own private little thing.

Just two people showing each other the craziest stuff they could find from two different worlds - Eddie's were gifts and hers were something Eddie called a blurse, a blessing and a curse.

She had to agree, he gave her proper weed and let her pick through his hidden music collection and let her try on his clothes and -

-tried on her clothes.

And what she gave him in return had been stories, mostly. Things that even deeply into her indoctrination she had known felt weird, wondering if life really was always like that, or at the very least knowing she was never actually going to be what they wanted her to be.

So he cringed and laughed and sometimes got tears in his eyes and didn't even try to hide them and she got to have fun, mostly. Turned on, sometimes, but she thinks that if God didn't want that to happen then he shouldn't have let someone with Eddie's waist try on her cheer skirt.

Anyway, their private little bubble was comfortable and safe and she was trying so hard every day now, to keep the damned thing intact.

It's just that going to the secluded Christian College at the end of town everyday just happened to put her right into Eddie's area, and while everybody else thought she was studying at the library or going for a workout to keep in shape or if they were really out of the loop, on a date with her ex-boyfriend; she was with Eddie.

Yeah, sometimes she studied or did her homework at his place, if reading from the textbook out loud just to watch his smile fall further and further into disgusted horror when she found something really terrible counted as coursework.

Most of the time they shared exactly one joint, sat a respectable amount of inches apart on the couch, and ate whatever new thing he'd been trying out in the trailer's tiny kitchen.

Honestly it made her heart start singing praises that sounded nothing like hymns at all.

The bubble does, eventually, burst.

But it's not her fault, and it's not even Eddie's fault.

Steve Harrington rocks up to the trailer one evening, looking like he bathed in gold as the sun sets behind him, and Eddie's composure crumbles to the ground and rebuilds itself in two quick blinks, all right before her eyes.

Yeah, that has something inside of her withering to hide under a shadow, but it also does something beautiful for her heart anyway. She'd… not known, but maybe hoped, that if Eddie wasn't into her then it'd be because he's gay. Not for her ego or self esteem or anything, being Eddie's friend is like working at a self esteem factory, but because he's just so.

There's just something about him that's outside of everything rigid in her life, and she'd been maybe even too scared to think about it directly, but with how easily he acts around her even when he's being so polite with very particular things, how they can do a little bit of flirting and it's just for fun, even if she thinks way too hard about it later… maybe there's reason for that.

Guys don't just flirt with her and not follow up on it.

So the bubble has burst and Steve Harrington is here, reminding her about the way she also used to get flustered around him, though Eddie's doing a much better version of not letting it to get to him than she'd managed.

Though it wouldn't have been an issue if she'd gotten caught looking too long.

Her breath catches in her throat at the thought of Eddie getting found out and vows to protect him however she can, even though like, she could be reading this whole thing completely wrong.

Eddie protects her though, if not physically then from the first half of her day.

She keeps her eyes off of his bare forearms as he lets Steve in and gives him a familiar spiel, though usually he makes her hide in his room before letting someone in to do a sale. He must trust Steve enough, for some reason.

"Oh, hey! Chrissy, nice to see you," Steve greets her, the stubble on his face adding something extra to his smile that makes her want to put him in a bubble. "You also here for Eddie's… services?"

The way he says it honestly sounds… dirty, and she has to think of Antarctica and keep her breathing slow so she doesn't turn into a human tomato.

If Eddie's services were at all about sex then she'd…

Anyway.

"Sort of," she says, not sure how much Eddie wants him to know, not sure how much she trusts him. "Just a joint."

Steve nods, his smile relaxing into something more genuine at the corners, and it's weird for a second, because the smile before had looked plenty real.

"Nice choice," he says, nodding like he's actually impressed, and that's got to just be for conversation.

"Steve, you wanna stay and smoke with us?" Eddie asks, coming back down the hallway. "I was thinking about ordering a pizza."

Chrissy raises her eyebrows, unable to keep from looking surprised. Today was supposed to be what Eddie said was a perfected recipe day, something he'd been working on and she'd been his audience for.

She'd tried his first attempt and one in the middle, and if he'd improved it anymore since then, she wanted it.

Eddie shoots her a wink - a sorry, thanks for putting up with his bullshit, and a promise to fill her in later all in one.

"That um, honestly sounds good," Steve says, and under Chrissy's scrutiny he looks… just as awkward as Eddie does.

It's like watching seventh graders compliment each other's braces.

She smiles, tosses a piece of hair over her shoulder, and spins to head off down the hall.

"Awesome! I'll be right back," she calls, going into the bathroom so she can try to condense the supernova of what might be affection or even just plain excitement down into three minutes of silent shrieking.

[96percentdone]

Is Shouma really the trans rep y'all want? Someone who had no agency in their metaphorical puberty blockers and was forced and threatened into 'taking' them, hated it for years, and eventually decided 'yeah i guess it's pretty neat i'm still youthful but also but also fuck that guy who did this to me?' Is this not just a right wing talking point about how doctors are abusing innocent children with irreversible surgeries to trans their genders being with trans-positive paint? I think reclaiming transphobic narratives them can be powerful, but the context of Nirvana Initiative canon this doesn't feel like 'reframing conservative beliefs' so much as just. Doing their arguments beat by beat including the medical abuse part and saying 'its good actually we want this.'

I haven't seen works transformative enough that change the text so Shouma wasn't abused into the early stages of her transition, or that she was actually willing to take the abuse and deception once she learned about it to see if it could get her what she wants for her body, and her grievances are with the abuse alone. It's just treated as a given that canon is exactly as we know it to be, and the ends justify the means.

Maybe a controversial take, but I just think a lot of transcanons are poorly considered, genderbent or no. This isn't specific to aitsf, and I'm also not saying anyone who likes them are just as bad, even for the ones I don't like at all like this one. They are popular with trans people first and foremost, that would be a bizarre claim; I'm not your dad, fandom should make you happy, do whatever. My beef is that as far as I have seen, a lot of the popular ones in trans fan communities are done by picking some part of the text, ignoring the context it exists in, and then using that detail to justify the hc, even if the context flies against it, and without providing any new context to supplement or even replace the old one. We're just left to assume that everything else is the same still, and transitioning is often the focus of genderbent ones making it stranger. In the case of transfem!shouma, this style of creation just like accidentally leans into transphobic ideas, but even for characters where it's not doing that, they're still similarly thoughtless. Transmasc Kuranushi Mizuki has its own popularity, to distinguish her from Date Mizuki, but like...that's it. No one posts about what it would mean for his character, their life, it's an aesthetic decision alone. It means nothing other than the petty fan grievance or wish-fullfilment that inspired it.

That laziness is what I hate the most. Fandom is transformative, those transformations have the power to be extremely beautiful and compelling and meaningful. They can elevate the text into something more than what it was. I love that. I am a trans person who loves good art. That's why the way trans headcanons are made and portrayed is so irritating to me, because they feel low effort. People will say they have thought about them a lot, and maybe you have! But if all of that consideration is in a private discord server, that means nothing to me. I refuse to consider the merits of context I have no access to. If the context exists, put it in your work!! I just want better art than that.

Fandom wants to be taken seriously. It wants to be treated as art, and yet it also wants to be treated as just a fun hobby unworthy of criticism, but I don't think you get to have both. You cannot position your creations as art, your community as an artistic one worthy of respect, and yet its immune to the treatment all art and art communities get: criticism. I just want more thoughtful and considered fanworks. I want transcanons, even if they exist for a ship, or out of spite, or for fun aus and comedy fan-comics, to be taken just a bit more seriously and with more effort.

[florisbaratheons]

I also hope Gayle and actress who plays Nettles will do a stunning job so all those hating on them already will shut their mouth. I knew after 1 season ended both helaemond stans and daemyra stans will do their best to manifest Alys and Nettles being cut out and now they can choke on their own stupidity. They can't grasp the idea of 2 Targaryen princes leaving everything behind for lowborn women (in Alys case older than Aemond and in Nettles case black woman) and leaving 2 Targaryen princesses, Rhaenyra and Helaena for them. They are so delusional and don't understand one of the most important quotes of both got and hotd. Love is the death of duty.

(You and me, anon.)

And the thing is, H*laemond doesn't exist. It's not a thing. There is nothing there in the text or in the show that makes it a thing. It was completely made up. And I do not judge people for that, crackships are amazing and you can have tons of fun with them. But there is nothing there that says it's going to happen in the show, and folks are setting themselves up for deep disappointment. Heck, I shipped the crap out of Jonsa, but not for one solitary moment did I think it was going to happen, and a lot of my fellow shippers were convincing themselves there was subtext there that wasn't really there.

I don't understand why we can't just ship for fun rather than for canon expectations? Canon expectations takes all the fun out of it, and makes shipping a chore, and fandom is not a fun place after all. Another example is I ship Cregan and Jace, and I am writing them as a huge tragic love in my Team Green au, but do I expect them to happen? Heck no. But that doesn't stop me from shipping them and making them into whatever I want them to be.

D*emyra is another ball of wax, because I don't ship it, and I don't ship Daemon/Nettles either - even tho I am interested in their dynamic. I think folks really need to just calm down and enjoy what's there and ignore canon if it doesn't go their way. I don't really know what to say. :/

And the way fandom goes after women is just insane. The shit that Emma D'arcy got because they were non binary and not that instagram model schtick that folks were expecting. The way Gayle got hated on because she was not that tall, big boobed, willowy beauty folks were expecting. She's short, mousey, and cute as hell. And the crap that's gonna be dumped on Nettles' actress is making me cringe so hard.

[alastorseye]

About Remadora

When I say I really hate the HP fandom, I'm talking about the "fans" that hate everything about the saga, but still having Harry Potter accounts. They change the original story, claim that fanonical facts are canon, and launch hatred and death threats at those who simply like HARRY POTTER JUST THE WAY IT IS. Yes, I'm mostly talking about Marauders fans, which I joined after reading the books because I thought it would be interesting and funny. I suddenly realized how toxic and hateful that fandom was, it's like a cult dedicated to deifying Remus, Sirius, James and Regulus, and it seems that hating Snape, Dumbledore, and Remadora is a requirement to be a part of it.

At the beginning I used to consider Wolfstar as something funny, a bromance, it never bothered me, I mean... every fandom has fanon ships and I respect that, but the way they always hate Remadora and their shippers is something that MUST stop.

"You see!" said a strained voice. Tonks was glaring at Lupin. "She still wants to marry him, even though he's been bitten! She doesn't care!"

"It's different," said Lupin, barely moving his lips and looking suddenly tense. "Bill will not be a full werewolf. The cases are completely -"

"But I don't care either, I don't care!" said Tonks, seizing the front ofLupin's robes and shaking them. "I've told you a million times. . . ." And the meaning of Tonks's Patronus and her mouse-colored hair, and the reason she had come running to find Dumbledore when she had heard a rumor someone had been attacked by Greyback, all suddenly became clear to Harry; it had not been Sirius that Tonks had fallen in love with after all."

"And I've told you a million times," said Lupin, refusing to meet her eyes,staring at the floor, "that I am too old for you, too poor . . . too dangerous. . ."

When I read this part of the HBP I realized that Remadora was my favorite Harry Potter ship. Of course I wasn't aware of the death threats I'd receive later. I've read some "reasons" why some fans hate Remadora.

"Tonks forced him!"

We all know how insecure Remus was. I don't have to explain what's written in Wizarding World (Pottermore). This is the Remus bio:

Well, we can read that Remus was really attracted to Dora.

"Remus, so often melancholy and lonely, was first amused, then impressed, then seriously smitten by the young witch. He had never fallen in love before. If it had happened in peacetime, Remus would have simply taken himself off to a new place and a new job, so that he did not have to endure the pain of watching Tonks fall in love with a handsome, young wizard in the Auror office, which was what he expected to happen. However, this was war; they were both needed in the Order of the Phoenix, and nobody knew what the next day would bring. Remus felt justified in remaining exactly where he was, keeping his feelings to himself but secretly rejoicing every time somebody paired him with Tonks on some overnight mission".

This is so sad and cute, and that's undeniable. I cried when I read it. If someone still thinking that Dora forced Remus to marry her after reading this paragraph... I mean... they're probably talking about another book series.

"The age gap!"

I'm so satisfied to know that some Remadora shippers have explained this. When it's about a kid and an adult... OF COURSE IS HORRENDOUS! Because children are not physically and mentally prepared to have romantic relationships. Wizards are legally adults at 17, REMUS MET TONKS WHEN SHE WAS 21!

I mean, many old people abuses of young people innocence, or something. But we all know that Remus wasn't one of those! He really loved Tonks, and that's canon. I don't know what's doing in the fandom people who denies canon facts.

Remus and Tonks were two physically, mentally, and legally adults loving each other.

"Remus didn't love her!"

He was an introvert, Tonks was an extrovert, she made his life better. And of course, I loved the way he introduced himself when he was trying to prove he wasn't a Death Eater:

"I am Remus John Lupin, werewolf, sometimes known as Moony, one of the four creators of the Marauder's Map, married to Nymphadora, usually known as Tonks, and I taught you how to produce a Patronus, Harry, which takes the form of a stag." (Remus Lupin, DH)

Maybe I'm not the only one who perceive he was proud to be Nymphadora Tonks husband.

"I.. I made a grave mistake in marrying Tonks. I did it against my better judgment and have regretted it very much every since". (Remus Lupin, DH)

This phrase makes more sense after reading Remus bio. He used to think that he was "too poor, too dangerous" for her. He thought he wasn't enough for her. He never imagined that she would love him back. He was a werewolf, and of course he knew he was dangerous, you only need to be emphatic to realize he tried to get away from Tonks because he loved her, he didn't want to hurt his beloved woman!

If you don't believe me, read this again. It's in the chapter 11 of Deathly Hallows:

"Don't you understand what I've done to my wife and my unborn child? I should never have married her, I've made her an outcast!"

So, if Remus was trying to escape it's because he loved them, he thought he spoiled their lives. And of course, no one likes to feel that their influence is bad for someone they love!

"Their relationship came from nowhere! They don't have a development"

Well, the saga's name is HARRY POTTER, not The Love Life of Remus Lupin. The story is about the tragic life of this kid and everything he went through to save the world of a cruel and dark villain. I know many readers are young people in love, and they only want to ship everything, but that's not the main topic here, maybe mother's love would be the topic. Of course Ron and Hermione had a development because they were HARRY'S BEST FRIENDS, and they were always with him, from Philosopher's Stone to Cursed Child. Remus and Tonks are minor characters, and it's funny the fact that this usually comes from Wolfstar shippers, so... is Wolfstar more developed than Remadora?! I mean... they can ship whatever they want, Snape and the Sorting Hat, Dobby and Voldemort, anything, but that does not give them the right to disrespect such a cute, tragic and beautiful canon ship as Remadora.

"They are queercoded! Their relationship is homophobic!"

It's surprising to hear this. It's like... people gets angry just because the author doesn't make queer their favourite characters? I will explain why I don't think Remus and Tonks are "queercoded":

Whether through their dress, their behavior, their language, or other subtle forms of implication, queer characters were written or designed to communicate their unstated queerness to those who were searching for representation.

And this is the definition on the website Pride.com:

"Using LGBTQIA tropes and stereotypes to allude to a character's sexuality without explicitly confirming it in the text."

We all know that Disney used queercoding on characters like Ursula, Scar, Jaffar. And why do we know that? Because DISNEY WANTED TO PORTRAY THEM LIKE THAT, get it? Disney, THE CREATORS MADE THESE CHARACTERS INTENTIONALLY QUEER. How? BASED ON STEREOTYPES.

And going back to Remadora, I was really happy to see by first time a bada*ass woman, with short hair who wasn't portrayed as a lesbian just because the way she looks. This character didn't follow the: "Straight women have long hair and are girly", and "short dyied hair is for lesbians". I'm very very very surprised the fandom follows these stereotypes.

About Remus: I don't know how the phrase "being a werewolf is a metaphor about people with HIV AIDS" means "he's gay". Fenrir Greyback bit him when he was a kid. Many people interpret this as "r4pe". Okay, even thinking that it is the meaning of the "bite", I still cannot understand how being "r4ped" and "infected" makes him queer. Is this (again) a stereotype about people with AIDS and gay?

"JK Rowling created Remadora because she didn't like people shipping Wolfstar!"

It is true that fans love shipping everything, they queerbait and queercode everything. That's great, that's not the problem. The problem is when people starts bashing fans who ship canon straight couples. A very good example is the polemic on Falcon and Bucky relationship, some fans wanted them to be a gay couple, Anthony Mackie said that two men can only be friends, and there is no need to always give them a romantic connotation. People cancelled him, they called him homophobic. Yes, just because a person with authority (on the story they're following") didn't like the fact of queercoding their favourite characters. It's the same about Remadora.

Grindeldore is a very interesting and underrated couple by the way. You can love or hate JK Rowling, but the truth is that Harry Potter story is hers, and even if Remadora was "because she didn't like Wolfstar", she is the author, it was her mind where these characters first appeared, as a big Harry Potter fan I respect and like the original story, that's not a sin. An author has the right to make some changes if some characters were misunderstood by the readers.

(Yes, I wrote this a bit angrily since I've seen too much hate towards Remadora shippers)

[a-stitch-in-time-and-space]

ok i agree w/ everything you said about those ladies besides, lwaxana gives s*xual pr*dator vibes and that is why i dont like her.

I can see that reading for sure and all things are subjective. I do strongly disagree, but hey, fandom is a space for that! Super chill.

to go a little more into this though, since it's not really so much about what any of us feel, but more about how we engage with female characters (and I'll use your example of why you don't like her - not to drag you, your dislike is totally fair, she's fictional, she won't mind, but just because it's a single line that kinda puts her in a box. And not a very nice box to be in, that's for sure...)

a little tw for mild references to some of the shadier writings of star trek vis a vis sexual assault and otherwise sexist and/or strange relationship dynamics

okay so you know how Riker has like. two? episodes that're suuuper shady in terms of his treatment of women and the rest of the time it's pretty chill. and he's one of my favourite characters, but I have gotta skip those episodes, because whatever they were trying to do, they Did Not Succeed - and there's a reading of him that incorporates those elements and if you do you've gotta contend with the character being quite probably someone who's assaulted women.

or how Worf at times espouses sexist shit that makes me roll my eyes outta my head and you're either gonna say "I don't fucking like this character" (and again, totally fair, I've seen people who don't Vibe) or you've gotta find a way to make this work for you if you want to explore that character - or both of those things, you can dislike a character and want to write about them

Or some of the weird shit the writers have Geordi do (which, Geordi is my favourite character in TNG, but sometimes ya gotta breathe and go "the writers are fucking dumb, the writers are fucking dumb")

or - the spiritual successor of Geordi, Julian Bashir (my favourite character from DS9 - clearly I have a Type). You've gotta go: This is stupid writing. I can make it work with my own read of the character, but first and foremost The Writing Is Dumb!

Or hell, Q - since we're talking about Lwaxana and I assume her interactions with Picard and Odo, let's not forget to mention Q, both in TNG and on VOY with Janeway - some of the more urgh-inducing scenes between Q and Janeway are, I think, meant to be charming and funny? And I'm a massive QCard shipper here, okay, I actually vibe so hard with him as an alien who doesn't get shit about boundaries (this mostly with Picard, with Janeway I have gone: "Hm. This doesn't feel good" a fair few times).

or how the writers of DS9 had Garak be in a very uncomfortable relationship with Ziyal, who was a teenager, then not a teenager within much too short a span of episodes (and actress changes)

or Quark. Remember the episode in which Quark tries to get Kira's likeness so he can put it in a sex-fantasy roleplay that she did not consent to? or how there are two cold opens where his female employees are told they have to sleep with him to keep their jobs

or like... Neelix (okay, I am not a fan of Neelix anyway, but for people who are fans, there are times when you've gotta wonder what in the heck the writers are thinking - not the character, the writers)

what I'm trying to say with the post I wrote is that this same graciousness isn't offered to female characters - especially female characters of colour, but in the case of Lwaxana

she's older, she's an ongoing female guest star, she's very (sometimes uncomfortably) sexual towards especially Picard and for a short while Odo, before they become really good friends.

she's also in-text several times in positions in which men are trying to control her (the episode where she gets kidnapped, the episode in which the guy who's married her is a misogynist) and she uses or tries to use her "wiles" to escape these situations.

She's really more of a faded beauty who's putting a pressure onto her daughter (in a rare interesting, complex, fraught mother-daughter dynamic that I loooove) and refuses to let go of the past, because (and here we get into my read, but mildly supported by canon) it's the only way she seems to have learned how to be loved and have relevance. She's terrified of letting that go, because where does she go next, without everything that's defined her? which is why her final episode with Odo is actually so powerful to me.

Picard is never threatened by her in-text. He's not massively fond of her (at first, she grows on him... like a mold), he would prefer to avoid her, but he's not in a powerless situation here. She undoubtedly makes him uncomfortable at times in a way that - like some of the above examples have made me go "mmmmokay" but certainly not the worst example of this in the writing.

With Odo I also don't like how some of her interactions with him go in the first episode they're in together. But once they're friends and you see how easily she accepts him ("I can swim" is always going to be one of my favourite little chuckle lines) that no longer applies. He clearly likes her and enjoys her company. There's something incredibly lifelong platonic partners in their easiness with each other.

You can argue in both cases (and argue well) that there are scenes that are kinda sus. But there are lots of scenes that offer you depth of character. She's not one-note. She's got off moments.

Some of these guys (and others - I haven't watched as much TOS and Voyager so I don't want to misrepresent anyone, but I feel sure that Tom Paris has made me squint once or twice + I've not seen Enterprise yet) have whole episodes that make me shudder.

It's really - within this fandom for sure - open how we interpret characters and I'm not saying anyone needs to read Lwaxana like this or change their minds and like her.

The point of the post is not to say you have to like any of these characters. Or even to say you have to engage with them regardless of how you vibe or don't vibe with them. It's just... I have listened to several up-until-then-enjoyable deeply analytical podcasts where at some point one of the (guys... always guys... I'm guessing white) makes a sneering comment completely dismissing their value within the series.

My point is that Lwaxana (since we're on her) has value as a character within the Trek universe. She added something important. She's not everyone's cup of tea, but it's a big series, we're not all guaranteed to like everyone.

and in the original post I used "shrill" and "cringy" on purpose, because those are descriptors I've heard. And they are absolutely rooted in misogynist dismissals of female characters no matter what shape they take (Keiko, Lwaxana, Michael, and Ezri are radically different from each other and yet all easily brushed aside regardless of screentime, personality, show, age, role/job).

I'm not making points about having to engage with or like characters. I'm just saying we need to be aware of how easily we specifically look down our noses at female characters (and specifically female characters of colour - apologies, this was just because we were talking about Lwaxana, but some of the shit I've heard about especially Michael and Keiko have made me want to bang my head against a wall... or other peoples heads against walls... you know, for a nice change)

so how much sympathy or analysis of behaviour is afforded to female characters vs their male peers. What judgements are we making and how do they compare to our readings of their male counterparts?

sidenote: I hate using male and female about star trek, my brain is just like "why anyone gender? why do this? you're in space? there are aliens? y'all can't chill with the binary for two fucking seconds?"

different post

[nevermindirah]

🔥 anything quynh related

I'm so glad you asked!!

Unpopular opinion related to Quynh but less about fandom than the grand scheme of mental illness research and treatment: complex PTSD is 100% a thing. I shit you not, I googled "CPTSD definition" just now to double-check something and google told me "did you mean PTSD". 😑 Anyway Quynh absolutely no question would experience severe long-term mental illness as a result of allllllll this shit she's experienced:

(ID in alt text and below the cut)

We don't know what her childhood was like but jfc she saw and survived and did so much violence for such a very long time before drowning constantly for 500 years.

CPTSD or whatever you call it can present in a lot of different ways (I'm not a medical professional just have a lot of research and personal experience with this stuff) and basically all bets are off in terms of what kinds of symptoms she might be experiencing in that 6-months-later and 2O2G.

It's totally feasible she's one of those traumatized people who lashes out at other traumatized people and would call Booker weak for being suicidally depressed over what she might perceive as a lesser trauma. It's also totally feasible that she'd be relieved to have someone who understands. She might very well cling to Booker and avoid the others — maybe out of shame, or if she sees them again it'll all have been real, or or or. Andy herself checks a shit ton of those trauma boxes and my personal read on her is a nihilistic depression and not CPTSD but lots of readings are valid, the point is Quynh might cling to Andy or avoid her or do that "leave me alone come back" thing or be angry that Andy can't heal her or spend more time comforting Andy than herself or any number of different things.

I'm down for all of the above, as long as the storyteller takes this shit seriously, understands that mental illness is never the fault of the person experiencing it, and doesn't let the text agree with shitty harmful things that flawed human characters might say or do even when they do them as a result of their mental illness.

Because of my own stuff I need to avoid certain depictions of romantic relationships between trauma survivors, so I basically can't read any significant Andy/Quynh angst. I'm sure I'm missing out on all kinds of beautiful shit as well as some things I'd have some arson-y opinions about. But speaking from what I have read (and real talk, what I've written, bc as much as I love Quynh, I don't think about her near as often as Nile or Booker), some of my, uh, lighter? unpopular Quynh opinions:

evil dragon lady trope is racist and it's absolutely necessary to avoid it — and it's possible and worthwhile to respectfully explore Quynh as a three-dimensional character who's committed a lot of violence, in her context alongside others who aren't targeted by the dragon lady stereotype but have also committed a lot of violence

her personality might be unrecognizable to Andy Joe and Nicky, and/or recognizable but upsetting or, even worse, repulsive to them. that would SUCK but that happens sometimes and it's worth exploring in ways that are considerate of all those characters

similar to what I talked about here with Nile, the way some people write characters named Quynh and Andy who have their faces but none of their depth in Before the Drowning fics 🤮

it's possible she was monogamous with Lykon for a while and/or not romantically involved with Andy and as much as I desperately need canon Andromaquynh in 2O2G there's an important place for these other depictions in fic (provided that they're motivated by exploring other Quynh ideas and not queerphobia)

ok actually on the lighter side! what if she's trans!! that could be fun and beautiful and not a source of trauma for her!!!

Quynh and Booker's hot girl summer is a fun joke or whatever but I WANT FIVE SEASONS AND A MOVIE OF THEIR FRIENDSHIP! throw Nile in there too, the potential for Quynh's friendship with Nile is so interesting! chaotic honorary-youngin' Quynh a three-dimensional character doing hedonism to cope my beloved!!!!!!

To wrap up this heavy post I'm gonna call myself out on a fun thing! Hot take @ Dirah: write that Quynh/Nile fisting pwp before 2O2G comes out will you!!!!?!??!??!??!

[ID: screenshot of the UK mental health charity Mind page about Complex PTSD. Text: "The types of traumatic events that can cause complex PTSD include:

childhood abuse, neglect or abandonment

ongoing domestic violence or abuse

repeatedly witnessing violence or abuse

being forced or manipulated into prostitution (trading sex)

torture, kidnapping or slavery

being a prisoner of war.

You are more likely to develop complex PTSD if:

you experienced trauma at an early age

the trauma lasted for a long time

escape or rescue were unlikely or impossible

you have experienced multiple traumas

you were harmed by someone close to you."]

[wickedpact]

A ranking of all the TTT stories in order of how much I liked them.

(Oh god this is so long)

1 My Mother's Axe

BABY ANDYYYYYYYYYYYY. Honestly this one had the trifecta of developing a character's motivations, developing a character's backstory, & developing their personality. The story starting out with Andy teaching Nile to use the axe was so charming and fun, and you could feel that chemistry they had in Opening Fire, the way they teased and bickered with each other so naturally. I loved the wedge between them on the subject of the axe, how Nile was perhaps a little too young to understand Andy's feelings about whether or not its the 'same' axe. I also love how the axe is obviously the symbol of the franchise and hugely important, but you never get a sense of exactly how important it is to Andy until you read the story.

I love the entire Ship of Theseus theme, and how it feels so natural that for Andy she has to get attached to the idea of things rather than the things themselves because she'll always outlive the things themselves-- the axe is symbolically her mom's axe, even if physically it isn't. And I love how she clearly clings to that concept so tightly. "This is the labrys she held in her hands...." IT GETS ME.

And the fact that this sense of BELONGING, of FAMILY, of CULTURE is so important to Andy that she clings to it (figuratively and literally) with both hands. And of course it's important to her, she spent so long alone that the woman doesn't even remember her birth name. That axe (or the idea of that axe) is all she has left of her mother and that family/culture she was born into.

PLUS on that note I love how Andy doesn't remember if her mom was her actual biological mother, but it doesn't matter to her. This woman was her mother in all the ways that counted. And how her mom BETRAYED AND KILLED Andy but Andy loved her so much that she avenged her and carried her axe for thousands of years. THOUSANDS OF YEARS!!!!!!

I also loved how the story transcends the timeline of the whole franchise and seeing Andy through the years. Loved seeing her with the varying squads and with varying axes. Also baby Andy was so cute. It was cool seeing her so young. like holy fuck. Andromache The Scythian, Immortal Warrior (but smol). Love that.

Also I think this one is one of the few ttt stories that doesn't suffer from length problems.

tldr: goddammit greg you've done it again.

2 Zanzibar and Other Harbors

Zanzibar my beloved. I've said before, but it's downright comedic how little regard there was for Joe and Nicky's character designs in this story. The same person who does the colors for the regular comic did the colors for this one too, and you can tell, every panel of this story was Beautiful.

Ik there was A Lot of criticism of this one (lmao @ how the fandom had no idea what was to come) but I thought a lot of The Discourse was a bit dramatic. I did think Nicky came off as a little oblivious to Joe's feelings in this story, but I've said before, I honestly think that was a 'tone not translating' thing. It felt like Nicky was nagging Joe for [checks notes] saving innocent people, but Joe was so amused by Nicky's complaints I really do think it was supposed to come off as teasing.

Plus I know the 'Joe running off into danger and Nicky reluctantly following' dynamic wasn't popular (I'm a pretty meh on it meself) but I did love how Joe's impulsiveness (if you want to call it that) was interpreted as heroism and not hot-hotheadedness. All of the examples Nicky and Joe talked about included Joe explicitly saving people. (and it also took A Lot for the nazi to actually provoke Joe).

I also feel like their characterization here was closest to the movie canon-- the bit where they hear the woman scream and Joe goes running in to save her while Nicky swoops in on Joe's heels to comfort her while Joe and the nazi were fighting reminds me of the train car scene. Joe had suggested First that they go find Nile because she needed to be protected, and Nicky later added that Nile probably also needed emotional support. Similar reactions.

But it was So Good, the themes of queer community and the enduring nature of queer culture are Not themes you see in media that often and it was such a delight how it was done. Also it's one of the few more modern TTT stories that has a completely valid excuse for taking place when it did. Chef's kiss.

3 Passchendaele

I love the Duality between seeing baby Andy and then seeing Mama Andy in the very next issue. This story doesn't have a ton of meat to it, but the entire concept of Andy adopting a war orphan straight off the battlefield PLUCKS MY TENDER LITTLE HEARTSTRINGS, and I think it's especially poignant for comic!Andy. I think most people wouldn't think twice about movie!Andy doing something like that but comic Andy is so hardened and almost cruel sometimes, and seeing that even for her the world hasn't beaten all of the compassion from her yet is SO!!!!!!! this woman contains MULTITUDES okay, she's violent and angry and tired and Done but she's also so kind and compassionate and THE STRENGTH OF HER!!!!! Also the idea of her and Yitzhak co-raising a kid together is so damn cute. It was #mysterious pre-Yitzhak-story but now it's cute. holy fuck. It's cute.

& the headbonk panel of her and Zeus lives in my heart. anyways.

4 Many Happy Returns

I Know people weren't thrilled about Booker being in this one, but I've developed a pet-peeve about that: this story was *not* booker-centric. Booker only exists in this story to the extent required to explain the importance of the gesture Nile makes towards him. If there was a story about Booker making some grand gesture of kindness to Nile no one would be saying it was Nile-centric. bc it wouldn't be! Booker exists in this story to explore Nile's kindness, its not about him. I saw that a couple times and it bothered me. anyways.

AAAAAAAAAA I loved this one, the art was beautiful, I loved how Andy Nile and Booker were drawn (like their comic selves but.. more looking like actual people). I loved Andy and Nile's Bants, how Andy wanted to jump right in and Do Violence but Nile was basically telling her to hold her horses.

I feel like I'm just repeating the post I made on this story a few days ago, but I LOVED how Nile's plan revolves not around violence or Cool Mercenary Skills but on Nile's own life skills (as she canonly did a lot of minimum wage job-hopping before the marines in comics canon). Her plan used her skills, not the skills of an immortal warrior, and HER SKILLS were in fact more useful for the situation! lov to see Nile's resourcefulness and planning skills.

AND HOW NILE WAS PROBABLY WATCHING BOOKER??? it's so Much bc 1.) nile knew booker A SINGLE DAY and yet he made such an impression on her emotionally that she had to keep an eye on him and 2.) she said in the movie she wanted Booker to get off free with an apology. Yes she's a member of the team but that doesn't mean she's necessarily going to follow orders like a good little soldier. I also love how she convinced Andy to go along with it. her HEART, her KINDNESS, her THOUGHTFULNESS, UGH.

5 The Bear

Honestly I have like no negative things to say about this one other than a.) character design issues which is less about the story itself and is more of a 'tog comic in general' criticism and b.) too short, but it was supposed to be a tease, so.

But I loved Yitzhak, I wasn't expecting to really like him at all but like I said in my other post, he tickled me. I love characters who are Kind™, especially if they have little reason to be so given their backgrounds. Chef's kiss. Lov him.

6 Bonsai Shokunin

I know this one was a little controversial bc of the outsider POV but whenever I see people upset about that they never point out that the Outsider Guy (the samurai) existed as a reflection on Noriko. His ideas are explained in the text to develop hers. The whole story follows how she gave mercy to a scared young man and in response he murdered Noriko, repeatedly! Who gave him the right to inflict such pain and suffering on the world? In his opinion, the lack of response from the gods was his permission. And for Noriko-- over and over again she dies and suffers because she gave mercy, which lines up with her ideas in FM about how it's their fate to rule mortals and if they don't align with that plan/fate/whatever then they suffer. It shows some background to those ideas and how they developed in her mind outside of Ocean Madness™. Additionally, his idea of 'the Gods have done nothing to strike me down so it's fine if I do these things' kind of explains how Noriko may justify her own morally corrupt actions-- she's died so many times and it's never stuck. Maybe if she did die any of those times, or while she was in the water, maybe that would've been a sign she was doing something right, or at least doing something normal. But she hasn't died. Fate isn't done with Noriko yet. And maybe there's a reason for that. In her mind, it's just not a very pleasant reason, is all.

There were things I was kind of meh about tho. I did kind of wish we saw something of Noriko and the team, or smth explaining the way she was before her dip in the pool-- personality, likes dislikes, etc. but it wasn't bad or anything. It was super vague tho, I had to read it a few times before I got what it was going for. Liked the art. Liked the bonsai metaphor. And of course I Respect the decision to use the 1300s (1200s? I don't remember off the top of my head) rather than using the last 200 years.

7 Strong Medicine

Honestly looking back, this one made me kind of sad because both this one and Bonsai Shokunin explored character's ideas on Fate and The Divine and how that intersects with immortality and I totally thought that theme would be continued, especially with Love Letters. But Then It Wasn't™.

Admittedly.... I had to re-read this one to remember most of it. I liked Booker's ideas on God, 'The conductor of the symphony just may not be very good at his trade' but the plot itself was kind of forgettable. Some fuckin cowboys try to kill a doctor (their second) because he couldn't save their sickly brother. Book tries to stop them, gets killed, and then comes back and kills them all before they get the doctor. Alright. I liked the artstyle because the characters were ugly in a similar way that leandro's are, but way more bearable.

I love the Irony of Booker concluding that there is no such thing as fate or destiny and nothing has meaning, AS HE UNKNOWINGLY SAVES MERRICK'S GRANDFATHER FROM BEING KILLED. Booker getting fucked over by life/god/destiny yet again. It also kind of explains about where the fuck hell Merrick's interest in immortal mercenaries even came from.

I originally had this one a lot higher and then I thought about it and moved it down like two spots.

8 Never Gets Old

I liked seeing Booker interact with his kid. And we got a name for the kid! Philippe was a little bitch though, he was a little obnoxious. I liked how Booker was so thrilled to experience a restaurant with his kid (and since we know he was there before, it can be assumed he went with all of his kids and yet he was so charmed each time). It fits with his line to Nicky in the moon landing story about how you don't appreciate beautiful things 'unless you have someone to share them with'. It was charming to see Booker interact with his kid, and to see him so happy. Also lmao @ Booker's big fat Ye Olde Crush on Andy.

However at the same time it was like.. of all the things to write about,,, I guess? Booker's Night Out...... alright. Especially since Book had so many stories.

I don't know, it was alright. The old man killing him really came out of nowhere, (but the 'Salut, asshole!' panel was funny tho).

9 How To Make a Ghost Town

I've hit a point where talking about these stories has gotten less fun. I liked this one but I felt like Achilles getting lynched was not really necessary for a story that was already tragic (a story that already involved Achilles doing a lot of suffering at the hand of bigots). When we first got the blurb for this story I thought it would be about Andy returning to the squad and making friends with Booker after losing Achilles and them butting heads on the idea of family and when to cut off ties. So a little bit of my underwhelmedness about this one might be just my expectations being different.

Honestly I was pretty interested in Andy and Achilles' relationship and I would've liked to see more of them-- like, what was their dynamic like? What did they love about each other?

But anyways Andy leaving and Achilles getting killed anyways feels so pointlessly tragic (which I suppose is the point..... I don't like tragedies) she left to save him and yet people killed him anyway. Meh.

I did love the bits about Andy wanting to have a domestic life (Andy and her multitudes again) and the little detail about how she buried her axe near the road but he buried his guns under his bed-- he was an escaped slave, he never had the luxury of assuredness like Andy did. It was a sad story.

10 Lacus Solitudinis

'You put this one above love letters crim??? how could you???' easy, lmao.

There was stuff in this one I liked. But to talk about stuff I didn't like: (I'll keep it brief, I know ragging on this story has been done time and time again)

UH, setting aside the 6 year cold shoulder between Joe and Nicky, I thought their chosen method of conflict resolution was... bad at best. Nicky's inability to talk about his feelings was also annoying, especially since the entire point of this story is a fight Joe and Nicky had, and yet we don't get both sides to the story, which is...... important? That fact is especially annoying bc in the absence of Nicky explaining his side of the story, it's absolutely a possible (and admittedly probably unintentional) interpretation of the text that we do get that Joe routinely resolves conflict between him and Nicky by simply cutting Nicky out of his life entirely until Nicky just. caves? Even if it takes years?

WHICH i could get into that interpretation and how fucked up i find it. but im not going to. out of restraint.

I don't know, I think there are a lot of interesting ways to go about this conflict but 'Nicky wants to kill a guy and Joe refuses to acknowledge his existence until he stops because he thinks Nicky is too much of a Good Boy to get his hands dirty like that' ('I wont watch as the world turns his (...) compassion into something ugly'. ) wasn't.. how I would've done it. (I mean you know Joe doesn't give a shit about what Nicky is doing in a moral way, because Joe doesn't even care or mention that Booker is killing those cops too. Joe only cares because he doesn't like the idea of Nicky changing in a way he finds undesirable.)

admittedly I've said before, I do like the emphasis Joe's reaction puts on Nicky's kindness. Joe has a complete inability to cope with Nicky simply Not Being Kind. It speaks to the steadiness of Nicky's compassion all those years. but still that fact doesn't make it the conflict feel worth it

hm. I said I would be brief and I wasn't.

oh well. basically I thought there was interesting conflict potential there but it wasn't done the way I would've liked, and the way it was done leaves a lot of disturbing (and again probably unintended) interpretations to lie.

What I did like? Andy and Joe having that pessimist/optimist dynamic. Joe nerding out about science. Andy not being impressed by The Achievements Of Man. I loved Booker needling at Nicky about his outdated slang and also trying to give him Older Brother advice practically in the same breath. I loved Booker giving The Worst relationship advice ever and Nicky being like 'I Will Not Do That, Ever, Thanks.' the family vibes were so good. The Joenicky vibes left a lot to be desired tho.

11 Love Letters

I talked about my problems with Nicky in this story (and Lacus Solitudinis). I don't know, the story isn't bad but I do hold a little bit of a grudge towards it because its very existence begs the existence of a solo Joe story and we didn't get one. If we never got this story, then we could happily count Lacus Solitudinis and Zanzibar as The Joenicky Stories™ and move on with our lives. sigh.

I remember when we first got the blurb for this story I was really curious about why Nicky specifically + the setting, and the answer kind of feels like 'the author had an idea for a story like this and saw ttt as a good enough place to utilize that idea'. Plus I was really underwhelmed by the Romantic Sentiment in the letter. If you look at it line-by-line, the majority of the letter is actually Nicky talking about how lonely and disturbed he is, rather than actual,, yknow,,, Romantic Sentiment. I mean, compare the van speech and this letter and this letter is just kind of meh in comparison. I liked nicky calling joe wise! and I liked the brief sun/moon metaphor! and otherwise it was eh. It didn't even have cute squad banter, which is why Lacus Solitudinis is above this one.

12 An Old Soul

Nun orgy. Nun orgy?????? Nun orgy.......

The whole story felt like a setup to have a nun orgy. Why did Booker have abs? Why did they do that to Andy's nose? ?????? the art was good at least.

nun orgy.

[mysaldate]

Sorry but I still heavily disagree with the 'Rook is a toxic friend to Vil' argument. Basically you took two scenes and ultimately decided that Rook was an awful friend. The Labcoat one, I slightly agree with and I understand your point of view for the VDC one, but the way you frame it as a toxic friendship is completely off. Yet its your opinion and I have to respect that, the one thing I can't accept is the bashing of people that enjoy the friendship or romance just bc you view it someway doesn't mean someone else can't view it another. /nm

Okay, I considered deleting this because you specifically came here to talk about a character I said multiple times has the exact same behavioral patterns AND phrases as a person who abused me for almost twenty years but you know what, I'll humor this. You definitely could've come off anon tho because I'd be happy to have a normal talk about this not on public blast.

I do not bash his fans. I just have yet to meet one who is actually respectful though. So far every hardcore R/ook fan I've met started seething and sending horrible things to me when I mentioned he was a trigger to me (because he used to be) and asked them to maybe not bring him up in our conversations. That or they hijacked every conversation I had with other people to talk about him. And let's not forget the WeStandWith debacle where they claimed Yana and his VA received death threats over the ending of chapter 5 and used it as an excuse to send gore, death threats, and sexual threats to people in the fandom who didn't join the tag.

And I did not, in fact, take only two scenes. I mentioned the labcoat because that one is a text-book definition of gaslighting. I also mentioned, repeatedly, Vil's dorm uniform where he goes out of his way to ruin the rest of the dorm's reputation to Vil by saying none of them appreciate him and he should just stop trying for them. VDC, I don't know how else you wanna frame it. He knew Vil's trauma, Vil specifically asked everyone to look away and let him calm down so he wouldn't overblot, and R/ook violated that simple request on the account of having to "punish" Vil for his mistake. And then blamed Vil for it.

If you need more examples of him being toxic either to Vil personally or to people in general, in R/ook's dorm uniform, he admits he sniffs Vil so he knows his smell by memory. In his ceremonial story, he splashes Floyd with strong-smelling perfume to force him to go shower, then follows him despite Floyd repeatedly telling him to stop. In Jade's gym uniform story, he's stalking Jade for a week and then starts boasting about how easily he could kill him now. Let's not forget his constant PHYSICAL harassment of the Savanaclaw students. He also at one point tried to gossip about Malleus (this one is smaller than the others but gossiping is still toxic) behind his back. He also constantly makes Trey uncomfortable by suggesting, in various ways, that either he and Riddle are together, or that Trey values Riddle more than his other friends.

With all of this, the start of chapter 6 and him claiming and even convincing Vil they lost because Vil wasn't "beautiful enough" just reads like a slap in the face: again, because I went through this exact thing for almost twenty years. I know how gaslighting can fuck with the victim's head. I'm years in therapy and still not fully recovered from that.

This is just what I remember from the top of my head. Let me say again: if you like him despite all of this, great. Power to you. But, much like many other twst characters, he is ultimately not a good person. You can ship him with whoecwr, hc whatever, but these are his canon interactions. If you bash on other ships because r/kvl is "healthier" or if you come after people who have gone through this type of mental abuse just because we point out it makes us uncomfortable, then that makes you a bad person. Not you personally, it's a general "you" of course. I don't know you, anon, but you should at least go through all my arguments before you decide to call me out for something.

And for those unaware: Gaslighting is a very delicate type of abuse that needs multiple boxes ticked. I think it is at least 7 out of 15. In some situations, R/ook ticks ALL of them. And these are not removed situations. Also, gaslighting isn't always intentional. It's strange to think that something so sophisticated can just happen but it is actually MORE common for the perpetrator to not realize they're being abusive in this way.

I can't tell whether that is this character's case or not. I can't even tell whether I'd like it to be, mostly because there'd immediately be people defending everything he does because "he didn't know." What I know for sure is that at this point, I don't care what happens to this character. I don't necessarily want him to get hurt or his fans to meet some horrible fate, I just don't care. I will talk about him when opportunity arises, and I will share how and why I think his behavior is abusive, both because it feels good to finally speak up about this sort of thing, and because it helps me explore this type of abuse from a safe distance behind the screen. If he gets better later on, realizes what he's doing, and stops it? Good for him. But ultimately, I won't care either way. I will care about Vil and I'm happy to see Vil making more friends outside of this person and getting with people who care about him and appreciate him rather than constantly trying to isolate and demean him, even if that is meant to be an attempt to "help" somehow.

Anyway, I hope this answered your questions. If you want to talk more, my dms are open. I might take some time to respond though because talking about this is still very mentally taxing on me so I need a small break now. But if you remain respectful, I don't see why couldn't we talk more in-depth about this.

[fedonciadale]

Thoughts on people who say it's hypocritical to be anti j0n€yes and anti S@ns@n but like Darklina from S&B? I've seen it said that it proves that the only grievance is that these ships get in the way of jonsa and I just want to point out that how the fandom reacts to the characters needs to be taken into account (but I'm shy so I don't). I'm not in the S&B fandom but I'm pretty sure no one denies the darkling is a villain... dany on the other hand.... 🙄 I would be nowhere near as anti j0n€yes as I am if the d stans weren't so awful

Hi there!

We ship what we ship. That is one point and blacklisting and tagging are there for a reason.

The only problem is when people want to tell other people what they should like or that they should like a ship because it is canon. That's not how it works.

Often fanon ships are about what people would have wanted from canon and Darklina is such a ship. I like Shadow and Bone but I'm not deep into it. I like Darklina because of the Beauty and the Beast allusions and because of the narrative potential that was never fully exploited in the books. As far as I see nobody denies that the Darkling is a villain. But his villain origin story is relatable and I think he has goals that are beyond his own hunger for power. Still from what I saw the ship war is quite insane in the S&B fandom. Which makes no sense to me. Because the books are finished. Malina is the canon ship, so why fight about it? Let people enjoy their fanon ships? Explore the narrative? Try to fix what Leigh Bardugo messed up? Or messed up according to their opinion (and mine to be honest, I think she could have done better at least in the original Alina-trilogy, Six of Crows is wonderful).

In a way it is understandable: you want other people to know why you like something, and if other people like it you feel validated in your own take on the story.

Take Jonsa: When I first got the idea I thought I must be crazy and I was so relieved when I saw other people came to the same conclusion as I did.

The ship wars in the ASOIAF fandom are mostly about how we think the story will go. And this is a matter of interpretation of the text. And people tend to fight over that. And it gets heated.

I don't think it's hypocritical to be Anti Sans@n in canon (which is about how we think the story will go, Sans@n is not going to happen) and ship Darklina as a fanon ship. These are completely different ways of shipping.

I've said it before: fanon shipping should not be shamed anyway. You don't really know why people like a ship, and we like what we like. And let people explore the characters and twist them.

You know some people @ me because how dare I ship Dramione when it's not canon, and when Draco was a jerk to Hermione in school. I can only answer that the fanon Draco in my head is different because in my head he is redeemed along the lines JKR actually set up in her books.

Same goes for Darklina in a way.

And of course there are people who ship dark ships for whatever reason. So, even if the Draco in my head was still a jerk, there would be no reason to shame me for it.

The problem with ASOIAF is that SanS@n and Jon€rys shippers think that they are basically canon, when the books where they could become canon are not even out yet, while they accuse Jonsas of wanting Jonsa to become canon. How dare we canonship Jonsa because this is where we want the story to go and how dare we do the same with our ship that they have done for ages with their ship.

That is hypocrisy.

Thanks for the ask!

[chalkrevelations]

Word of Honor Ep 6, and let’s talk a little about what’s canon, and what’s not, and about the particular slip-slidiness of the line between them on this show.

But first, due diligence: If you are NEW or JUST VISITING, this is a re-watch, so you’re going to find SPOILERS not just for this ep, but for the entire show. Scroll away and come back later if you haven’t seen all 36.5 eps and want to watch unspoiled. Also, heads-up, this got super long, because I had to talk about that stuff up there and then still talk about the ep. Hashtag long post (remorseful).

So, “canon,” as applied to fannish source material (in Western fandom, at least) traditionally has been considered the official stuff – the episode, the book, the comic, the movie – based on the religious definition of  “canon,” the collection of texts accepted as genuine and official within a religion. The word “fanon” – widely accepted fannish ideas – plays on this, as does the fandom concept of “word of God,” or things the Creators have said about the text but outside of it. Is it in the show as it aired or the book as it was printed? Canon. Is it not in the show as it aired or the book as it was printed? Not canon. (Apocrypha? Maybe. Anyway.) Generally, I think we’d say that things like material in the first draft of a script that doesn’t make it through revisions and onto the screen isn’t canon, even if you can get your hands on a copy of the first draft. The final product that airs is what’s canon. BUT this gets super slippery in something like WoH, in a way that’s exemplified in this episode. This ep is one of the places where people who can lip-read Chinese have spotted some significant dialogue changes between what the actors say on-screen and what lines have been dubbed in. (Everybody’s dubbed in cdramas, it’s just the thing that happens. You have your on-screen actors, and you have your voice actors. The ONLY person in The Untamed who did his own voice dubbing, for instance, was Ji Li, who played Nie Huaisang. All the other characters had voice actors dubbed in. In fact, the voice actor for Jiang Cheng in The Untamed is the voice actor for Wen Kexing in WoH.) One of the descriptions of WoH that I’ve heard is that this show was filmed as a bl and dubbed as a bromance. The thing is, nobody tried very hard to hide the shift. There are plenty of places that you can clearly see the actor’s mouths don’t match the dubbing, and they’re not artfully shot or edited to hide this. They’re fully on-screen, mouthing words that don’t match, right out in the open, almost like they want to you to pick up on it. Almost like it’s canon, because it’s right there on-screen, aired in the episode. In my first-watch reactions to Eps 36 and 37, I talked a lot about how the dubbing puts a layer of de-queered no-homo over what the on-screen actors are saying in these places, but if you can see what they’re actually saying and understand it, does that make it canon? What does it mean, both textually and meta-textually, if you can’t believe what you’re hearing – what you’re being told – because it contradicts what you’re seeing? How does that affect what we’re told about Our Protagonists and its “truth,” particularly in the final scenes? How much is the show deliberately working against censorship in this way? How much is it teaching us to look deeper than what we’re hearing on the surface?

Several people have talked about what’s actually being said by the on-screen actors in places where this happens, and I’m going to direct you to AvenueX on Youtube if you want a complete overview, because she’s reliable and has a good compilation that’s easy to find. She has a couple of videos called “Lip Reading for Sugar,” and the March 9, 2021, installment includes the Ep 6 incidences, the most significant of which are: At 3:05 in the ep, when WKX throws himself on Zhou Zishu’s back during the zombie Drug Men attack, calls him “mom,” asks ZZS to carry him, and tells “mom” that “your shoulder blades are the most beautiful.” Only no, Gong Jun didn’t say this, if you watch his mouth compared to the sound of the words. Instead of “niang” (mom), he says “Zhou Zishu.” Twice. “Zhou Zishu, carry me.” “Zhou Zishu, your shoulder blades are the most beautiful.” This is not only important because it emphasizes he’s gay for Zhou Zishu’s shoulder blades, but also because he’s fucking baked on Drunk Like A Dream incense when it happens, and later, ZZS will reveal that Drunk Like a Dream makes you see what you most desire, and he’ll confront WKX about how he “kept calling” someone’s name while he was under the influence of it. This makes no sense with the dubbing we get, because with “mom” dubbed over ZZS’s name here, WKX only calls Zhou Zishu’s real name once while he’s under the influence, at the end of ep 5. That is not kept calling. ANYWAY, once WKX clears his head and flies them away from the Drug Men, back to the a lakeside, there’s another disjunct at 5:05, when the dubbing has WKX tell ZZS not to play hero, that he doesn’t lose face if WKX helps him, and ZZS responds with something about your grandmother’s bear, which AvenueX tells me is a real Chinese idiom, although not for what. What Gong Jun and Zhang Zhehan appear to actually have said, though, is that WKX tells ZZS that this was just like a hero saving a beauty, with the implication that ZZS is the beauty, the damsel in distress, and ZZS respons that no, it’s like the beauty saving the hero, without a lick of concern that he’s the beauty, the damsel, in this scenario, just that he did all the work killing Drug Men and now this asshole is going to act like he’s the one who did the saving. At 31:24, dubbing has WKX telling ZZS that he’ll give ZZS whatever he wants if ZZS can get him some of the Drunk Like a Dream, but AvenueX tells me that he actually offers his body in exchange, in a way that implies marriage. And at 32:22, when ZZS asks WKX what he saw under the influence of the Drunk Like a Dream, the dubbing gives us some random story about baby WKX throwing a rat on his mother’s bed, while Gong Jun’s mouth seems to be saying something something about being in the bridal chamber with his beloved … so circling back to our first instance at 3:05, WKX using Zhou ZIshu’s name is now super-interesting, eh?

Another slip-slidey point of canon here is that there are two versions of this episode. The original version didn’t have the rabbit-washing scene. That was an extra that was inserted later into a Special Version ep when Youku reached 2 million subscribers. But the Special Version is now available on Youku’s channel (it’s the one I watched for this re-watch), AND it’s the regular version that’s on Netflix. So at 25:28, we now get this adorable little scene where ZZS and WKX are cleaning two rabbits in the lake before cooking them, and WKX splashes ZZS who pretends to be irritated before splashing WKX back and running away up the riverbank, chased by WKX. It’s flirty and playful and ALSO a foreshadowing of the flashback we’re going to see in a later ep, when they play together for an afternoon as children. Wasn’t canon before. Now it is.

Anyway, even with the (bad) dubbing that we get, this is a fantastic WenZhou ep. We open with them still being menaced by the zombies Drug Men, with a lot of swordwork by ZZS before he starts flagging because of his Nails Issue, whereupon WKX instantly sobers up, goes Evil Ghost Valley Master on Imposter Hanged Ghost who’s controlling the Drug Men, kills him with his Fan of Death, then scoops up ZZS and flies him off to a lake, where he attempts to tenderly check ZZS’s pulse and take care of his wounds before ZZS slaps away his hand like an offended maiden. WKX has to give him the qi smackdown in order to hold him still to :coff: pull down his robes and suck out the poison from the Drug Men scratches on the back of his shoulder. :hands: I remember the first time around, watching this with my mouth hanging open, demanding to know the heterosexual explanation for this. (Also, if you’re rummaging on Youtube, the Five Straight Guys Watching Word of Honor for this ep is not to be missed. They’re a little questionable in their reaction to the poison sucking, but before that, they’re a bunch of squeamish babies over using the dagger to further slice open the wounds to get to the poison, and it’s HILARIOUS. They can’t even look at the screen once the dagger comes out, hiding behind their hands. I love them, more and more as the eps go on, but they are WEAK compared to even the newbiest hurt/comfort fangirl.) There’s some more back and forth between WKX and ZZS about revealing their true selves to each other, no you, no YOU. WKX makes it clear that he knows there’s something really wrong with ZZS, and then they fight, set to romantic music, and ZZS ends up falling in the lake. I do the victory arms (  \o/  ) to myself where I’m sitting on the couch and startle one of the cats, because FINALLY we’re going to get rid of that execrable fake facial hair. ZZS fucks with WKX by staying underwater long enough that WKX panics and also dives in, we get some really cheap and awful underwater effects, and ZZS reveals his face! They end up back on the edge of the lake, drying their perfectly dry outer robes, while they sit around the fire together in their perfectly dry inner robes, but I am not going to complain because y’all. I CANNOT with how smug and pleased ZZS is for just a moment about WKX mooning over how pretty he is. Then he remembers to be an ill-tempered gremlin and pokes at WKX with a flaming stick, but I had to rewind four times just to catch that little moment of satisfaction about being admired again – it’s subtle and gorgeous and Zhang Zhehan is going to kill me with his face one of these days. ZZS demands dinner on this date, and fake-coughs pitifully to get WKX to go hunt something down, while he stays and does his delightful little thinky face as he pokes at the Soul Winding Box they got from Imposter Hanged Ghost. Then we get a shot of WKX looking at ZZS before he heads off to catch some rabbits that confirms he now knows he’s really Zhou Zishu, rather than Zhou Xu.

So, we’ll get back to the Ghost and the Box in a minute, but I do want to mention that this whole ep is layered through with mini-references and thematic stuff. Imposter Hanged Ghost rings his little bell to control his Drug Men, and remember that, we’ll see that again. WKX asks if ZZS came from the Healer’s Valley when ZZS offers him an antidote to the Drug Man poison; we learn later that WKX, himself, is the one who came from the Healer’s Valley. When ZZS gets the Soul Winding Box open and finds a piece of the Glazed Armor inside (Danyang’s, taken off of Ao Laizi by Ghost Valley before he was hung at the gate of Sanbai Manor), he gives it to WKX, tells him to throw it away if he doesn’t want it. WKX says he couldn’t possibly, and that he’ll wear it because it’s his first gift from A-Xu. Compare this to the way Xie’er will wear Awful Yifu’s Glazed Armor around his neck. We also see some of the thematic and referential stuff come up in conversations that form a repeated pattern in this ep of ZZS stressing what a bad and dangerous person he is: He scoffs at the idea he’s from Healer’s Valley, and asks if he looks like someone who practices medicine; WKX responds that he looked like a professional killer (true) who was cruel in the abandoned temple (presumably while escaping Mirror Lake) and frightening to a kind-hearted man like WKX who can’t even kill a chicken (particularly amusing given the prep for New Year’s dinner in a later ep, when WKX is the only one who CAN). At the lakeside and again after ZZS hightails it away from Sanbai Manor when they spot Han Ying there (HAN YING, my beloved), WKX asks if ZZS is a fugitive, what he’s hiding from, and says that he’ll protect him – by reason, because would he kill anyone unreasonably (omg, where to even begin? How many guys have you choked out at this point)? When they’re arguing about ZZS revealing his “true” face, ZZS warns that most people who’ve seen his real appearance are dead (probably true). WKX says he’s not afraid of death (not his own, at least, we’ll see that the thing he’s afraid of is ZZS’s death). ZZS warns WKX that he’s not only sharp-tongued, he’s ruthless (true). He tells WKX that he’s murdered many people (true) and set them on fire (not unlikely, frankly) and committed many crimes (true, in a way, although they were state-sanctioned, making them legal, if morally reprehensible). This is the ZZS who put the Nails in himself, who talks to himself about what a truly awful shixiong he is, who tells Prince Jin that he’s only good as a weapon. I like how we see this at the same time that we’re starting to see the side of him that’ll preen when someone thinks he’s pretty - this is a process, and it’s subtle, not as high-drama as WKX’s, but it’s there, nonetheless.

We also formally meet Xie Wang in this ep, artfully posed and playing his pipa among the bodies – old and new – of Zhao Coffin Home. He and Changing Ghost have a bit of a slapfight over whose fault it is that Imposter Hanged Ghost, who was actually Long-Tongued Ghost, got killed and got his (Danyang’s) Glazed Armor took by WKX, when Changing Ghost stole it from Ao Laizi, put it in the Soul Winding Box and gave it to Long-Tongued Ghost specifically to deliver it to Xie Wang. Xie Wang is super cool through all of this, and I think we get a sense of how deadly he is by the way Changing Ghost backs down. So, here’s what’s falling together: Some iteration of Ghost Valley is working with Xie Wang and the Scorpion Sect, giving the Scorpions access to the Soul Winding Threads, which we saw used at the Mirror Lake massacre and in the woods outside of Sanbai Manor to kill Yu Tianjie in the last ep. Via Xie Wang, Ghost Vally has access to use of the Drug Men, which we’ve seen at the Zhao Coffin Home (so far), although we haven’t yet been told (I think) how Xie Wang got access to the potions to create Drug Men (we also know ZZS read about Drug Men in a book somewhere, and got enough info to engineer an antidote to them). Xie Wang and the Scorpions have access to Drunk Like a Dream incense, which had to come from Prince Jin’s court, having been engineered by ZZS based on a much stronger formulation. Han Ying, from Tian Chuang in Prince Jin’s court, has been seen at Sanbai Manor, Zhao Jing’s place.

Meanwhile Chengling is doing poorly, with no appetite and getting bellowed at some more by Shen Shen, who would be the worst if only I didn’t know everything I know, which makes me cringe when Zhao Jing refers to Chengling as “my son, now.” NO. RUN, Goldbean. For some more thematic and referential stuff in this ep, WKX calls Chengling a “lonely chick with no one to rely on” and tsks over the fact that he’s “surrounded by hounds smarter than foxes” now that he’s under the care of the Five Lakes Alliance. This is clearly to manipulate ZZS into thinking Chengling is better off with ZZS, but it also sounds like an awfully apt description of Zhen Yan in Ghost Valley. I’m just sayin’.

[thickenmyblood]

It’s interesting because, like, Laurent being conventionally attractive is a pretty integral part of his character? Just because he’s got people fawning over him and being creepy all the time and it’s interesting to think about how it would affect his defensiveness and stuff if he was just, like… average? And tbh if he wasn’t blond and gorgeous I feel like Nik at least would like him a lot better just bc he wouldn’t be like… Damen’s making bad decisions bc he’s horny

Also in terms of Damen only respecting jocks I literally cannot get over the fact that he spends a good half of book one shitting on Ancel and the other pets for being pretty and useless and then straight up gets raped by him and then two scenes later sees him fire dancing and thinks “huh, this guy has a useful skill after all” and smiles on-screen for the first time because he’s genuinely happy the guy got the interest of the regent like seriously Damen I love you but wtf

I'm sorry. I have thoughts. Again.

I was talking to a friend yesterday about this and she told me, basically, that if Laurent wasn't pretty and/or didn't know how to fight, Capri wouldn't be Capri. It'd be a completely different story (although we all agree that it's not just Laurent's skill with a sword that draws Damen in. It's the fact that he starts to see Laurent as someone who's committed to his people, his men, etc.)

I think "being pretty but singed" is an actual trope, as in, many people enjoy writing/reading about someone who is beautiful on the outside but has dark secrets, an ugly past, whatever. Which is interesting to think about. It's also interesting how sometimes we will take a character who is explicitly described as undesirable and ugly and turn them into a hotter version of themselves. I do that with Govart, especially when I'm reading.

Sadly, I disagree a bit on the Nik part. I think Nik's character sometimes is read and interpreted as some sort of comedic relief, much like Nicaise (the fork scene in Book 1, for example). By this point, we all know there is a difference between canon and fanon, and so some characters become caricatures that can be quite the opposite of what they were meant to signify in the original text. I believe—once again, my opinion, just a way to interpret things, nothing else—that Nik's dislike for Laurent runs deeper than the fact that he thinks Damen is being a horny idiot.

Nikandros is a slave owner. He's the Kyros of Delpha, which we all know used to be Delfeur and belonged to Vere. He underestimates Laurent's abilities again and again, and when Laurent proves himself he has to do so in the Akielon way (so, fool Akielon guards, win the Okton—which I'm not even going to try and explain because I don't even get it myself. I really don't). Nikandros doesn't share Damen's journey as a slave, doesn't know what it's like to be at the mercy of another man simply by a twist of fate, doesn't know that slavery is not as fancy and nice as Damen described it in Book 1. Nikandros is Damen pre-journey, unchanged except for the grief of losing his friend. Not that I think Damen has turned into the Virgin Mary towards the end, but whatever.

My biggest issue with Nikandros as a character is that his whole development and "arch" happens in the third book, which is to me the worst book in the trilogy, full of things that make 0 sense, full of contradictions that not even fandom can "fix" without starting a headcanon war of epic proportions. All I can say is that I think Nikandros hates Veretians (dislikes them strongly? considers them militarily inferior? also, morally dubious?) and I refuse to believe after KR he was suddenly okay with slavery being abolished, became best pals with Laurent, and never had a shitty thing to say about Vere again.

Not only does Nikandros have all this prejudice against Veretians (which we can say he sort of overlooked that one time he was plotting with Laurent), but he's also the only person in the trilogy besides Jord that tells Damen things exactly how they are. I think Nikandros' concerns are very, very valid. You can't just build a cute palace on the border, get married without heirs, and unite two countries that have hated each other for many years. . . and not expect any sort of retaliation, uprising, mutiny, etc. It's simply stupid. But then, Pacat writes that that's exactly what happened. So. . . I don't even know where I was going with this.

Also, Nikandros probably doesn't give a fuck about helping Laurent get his kingdom back. Nikandros wants Kastor's head on a spike and for things to go back to how they were, so he can go back to Delpha and eat olives with bread while a hot slave fans him.

Damen only respecting jocks + the thoughts he has on pets and people, in general, are the two reasons why he's a good character when he's depicted as flawed. He has flaws. He judges people harshly and wrongly. He makes assumptions. He lies to himself. Giving him flaws isn't making him OOC. In canon, Damen is deeply flawed, just like Laurent is. I don't know when Lamen became the symbol for all that is good and pure, when really they're both. . . fucked up. Every couple in Captive Prince is fucked up. Jord and Aimeric? Jord is one creepy fuck. Aimeric is basically raping himself (at least in the very beginning, we can debate the rest). Anyone and Erasmus? Fucked. Up. Like, every version of Erasmus with someone ends horribly. Erasmus and Torveld are gross (objectively, because Erasmus is a SLAVE even though Pacat really tried to say 'Torveld is not like the rest of the slave owners, he's different'). Erasmus and Damen are gross because again, power imbalance, also Erasmus' feelings towards Prince Damianos are worthy of a good old therapy session. Erasmus and Kallias? I have thoughts but this is way too long. Erasmus and Govart? Rapey rape. I think the least fucked up couple is Berencel, BUT it can be argued that they're not part of the trilogy. We only meet Ancel in the short stories, so I don't know. Plenty of people haven't read Pet.

My final thoughts on this are that had Laurent been ugly as fuck, it would have taken Damen 400k words to fall in love with him. And if he was ugly AND not blonde. . . 650k.

[sulkybbarnes]

I just saw your post about misinterpreting characters. It was tagged with Adam and Bucky (two of my favorite fictional characters) and though I feel like that when I sometimes read fanfics, I can never just put my finger on it and I'd love to read your take on it!

Oh lord where do I even start... alright, this might get long so apologies in advance, but I have nearly a decade’s worth of thoughts on this. The short answer is: both characters often get severely over simplified, stripped away from essential characteristics, and their understandable reaction to their respective trauma gets overlooked in order to make them more “palatable” and to favor other characters in fics. 

The long answer: 

Let’s start with Adam Parrish. We meet Adam when he’s only 17 years old and we learn that he is an abuse survivor who comes from severe poverty, and along the way we witness trauma that leads to Adam having a disability, and later on learnt hat Adam is bisexual. Adam’s character is very realistic to someone in his position, so that he’s flawed and has issues to work through as the series goes along. These issues are presented at the start of the series through two unreliable narrators: Gansey who is proud and often self-victimizing, and Adam himself who is very introspective and lives in fear of turning into his father. Thus the characteristics the text gives us is that Adam is “cold and calculating” which is courtesy of Gansey, and that Adam is lonesome and prone to anger/arguing with his friends which is Adam’s own worries and insecurities manifesting in his chapters. And yes sure Adam at the start is -understandably- angry with the world at large and feels as if he’s ten steps behind everyone and playing catch-up, but he’s also visibly self-aware and constantly trying to curb any anger and moderate his reactions (even when they’re justified). The book also shows us through actions that Adam is sweet and thoughtful from how he acts around Blue, and shows that he develops as the books go on to be more aware of his actions, more confident in his own goodness, and more willing to show love and allow himself to be loved in return. The later books (BLLB, TRK, Opal story, CDTH) all show an Adam who is kind (his interactions with Opal), thoughtful (his constant thinking about Ronan’s feelings and not wanting to act before he knows he’s as serious/sure about them as Ronan is), a good friend (I’m just gonna.. gesture at the whole Blue/Gansey thing and how gracefully Adam handled it when they didn’t even deign to give him the benefit of the doubt), and a very loving person (which we see in his every interaction with Ronan from TRK onwards). So that’s Adam Parrish, complex and flawed but inherently a good person and a good character. 

However, Fanon Adam Parrish is a different story all together because he is often stripped to whatever bare essentials would serve the fic he is in. SO, in fandom you see an Adam who is either cruel and cold, as to serve some infantilizing hurt angsty version of Ronan. You see an Adam who is angry and prone to lashing out, to serve posts about Gansey being an angel who’s faultless and constantly hurt by his friends. You see an Adam who is disrespectful and hurtful to serve posts about why it was okay for Blue and Gansey to behave the way they did to him. Or on the complete opposite end, you get an Adam who is demure, shy, and almost disgustingly helpless to serve in a fic where he needs saving or some misguided hurt/comfort thing. Adam also often gets stripped away in the latter fics from any rightful anger or sharpness that relates to his trauma. Said anger is treated as something that makes him an unlovable or annoying character (you can find these takes everywhere in trc fandom), and therefore people need to overlook it to make him more palatable to them. Adam’s anger, as we see in CDTH, is often turned inwards and is an on-going struggle for him because it still feels at times as him against the world. It’s one of the best things about his character if you ask me, because it is what he grows out of the most, and what he continues to face and develop against. This trait makes him human and shows his vulnerability. Adam in canon is touch starved and loves fiercely, but in fanon the anger he displays gets used to paint him as unfeeling or constantly angry. Even though Adam shows anger only as much as any other character in the series, and often in a way less explosive (Ronan) or hurtful (Gansey) or entitled (Blue) manner. And so the point is that fandom takes away the complexity that makes Adam Parrish who he is, and molds him into whatever is easiest to digest and shove into a box that works better for the other characters. Adam’s development and arc get completely overlooked most of the time. He is often misinterpreted as one shallow thing, when he is a beautiful mix of emotions that make him Adam Parrish, and make him endearingly and painfully human and real.

Bucky Barnes, my original fave guy, follows strongly along the same lines. All you have to do is change names and events from what I said before and you’ll get how fandom treats Bucky. What I adore about Buck’s character is that he was established instantly as fiercely loyal, loving, fun, a good friend, and someone who is so important to Steve that we see Steve take on a suicide mission to get to Bucky. The progression of the other movies deals with Buck’s trauma and shows all the new aspects to his character that stem from said trauma, while maintaining the undercurrent of goodness and humor that we saw from pre-war Bucky. But once again, the complexity of Bucky’s character and his storyline; the trauma, the PTSD, and the fact that m*rvel never lets him heal, all boils down to fandom only choosing what they find palatable about Bucky and leading with that. I have less to say about this only because I’ve been a fan for too long, and have learned to conduct myself so that I don’t run into upsetting posts anymore, and read fics with a tone and characterization that works for me, but there’s a lot of content out there that strips Buck of his characteristics so much that he might as well be an OC. I will say that you might get more leeway with content based on a movie, than you do with content based on a book (where everything is glaringly obvious in the text), but I still have to roll my eyes at most content I see for Bucky, where he’s either helpless and waiting for someone to save (did we watch the same movies??), innocent and naive in how he conducts himself (...did we watch the same movies?!), or he’s unflinchingly cool and cold and unfeeling (seriously, DID WE WATCH THE SAME MOVIES?!). So once again the endpoint is that Bucky’s misinterpretation comes from a shallow understanding of his character, or complete lack of care about how he’s portrayed so that only one trait -whatever is needed for a fic or a post- is central and amplified while everything else he is falls away. I’m not pretentious enough to say that people can’t just have fun with a character and write whatever they want about it, because they absolutely can.. I’m just saying that it’s not my cup of tea and I wouldn’t read it. In fact, I only made a couple of attempts years ago at writing Bucky myself and then decided that I would rather read well-written things about him, than try and get it right myself because I’d get all in my emotions about his character. 

Tl;dr The theme of having your autonomy taken away and fighting like hell to get it back, and remaining good along the way is what makes both Adam and Bucky so close to my heart. Their respective trauma and complexity is what makes me love them both a lot, and I wish fandom didn’t often strip them away of their complexity to make them easier for fandom to digest.