#talia is morally gray not evil

[fulcrum-1029]

Literally why do all asian female love interests in dc become mothers who hide their children from the fathers for a few years?? Talia, Cheshire, Moonday, and some others i dont remember.

And another thing, all of bruce's villain love interests get redeemed but talia becomes a rapist?? Talia is an antihero and is the reason why Ra's never succeeds, but Grant Morrison was too lazy to read the comics and made her irredeemable evil. God forbid Bruce ever have a morally grey love interest who isn't Selina

[neoflames]

Hey bestie, 7 and 12 for the violence ask game?

7. what character did you begin to hate not because of canon but because how how the fandom acts about them?

Might get shot on sight for this one. Talia al Ghul

She’s kind of hard to openly dislike because people immediately assume it’s because of racist retcons. Nope. I understand that she did not rape Bruce, they were both consenting. I understand that she loves Damian.

What I don’t fucking like is how the fandom trips over itself to make her morally gray at the very best and secretly good on the evil side at worst. NO!!!! SHE IS A VILLAIN. LET HER BE A VILLAIN. I have nothing against villain characters I love SEVERAL villain characters. She is not fucking morally gray!!!!! She is a significant member of the league of assassins!! The appeal of her romance with Bruce was that they were on opposite sides of the fight !!!! But people still rush to scream racism when you say she is a villain character and probably what most would consider a bad person

I understand that there were lots of really racist retcons and mischaracterisations. I’m not talking about those. I think she’s actually a cool character but I can’t stand her because everyone goes out of their way to throw out everything cool about her out of fear of being called racist if they make her look bad

12. the unpopular character that you actually like and why more people should like them

I think Lex Luthor is really funny. You are a grown bald ass man why are you beefing with sunshine incarnate. More people should like him outside of shitposts so we can talk more about what a fucking loser he is

[shinycozytwistedglam]

Onyx Storm RECAP ch37

I started re-reading Fourth Wing and now I'm re-reading Iron Flame and it's starting to mess with my head a bit, but I'm still recapping!

WTF is happening in ch37?

So it turns out, Chewbacca Ridoc isn't actually dead. Thank Zihnal! Bex is fucking with us here and I don't appreciate it. Give Ridoc his fucking patch and leave our souls in peace!

Violet starts ordering people around so we can wrap up the tedious poisoning shenanigans. Dain preps a slurry of figs + water for Garrick, which cures him of the poison's effects but leaves him unconscious.

Once Garrick is breathing again, Xaden loses his shit with a knife at Faris's throat. Possessive Venin Mode is in control as he realizes Faris tried to poison Violet as well. Violet talks Xaden down off the ice, but it's clear that Ridoc & Dain are noticing the changes in Xaden's behavior.

Violet brings things to a conclusion by blackmailing Faris with the fact that she gained the upper hand in his own home, plus the fact that Andarna is outside the house where his young sons are staying. Morally gray Violet is here to play! Threatening panthers? Sure. Threatening young kids? I guess Sgaeyl is not the only ruthless bitch on the isle today.

No goodbye hugs for Talia as quest squad leaves for the next island.

--

So who poisoned who with what and how did Violet manage to get the upper hand over Faris?

Talia has known for weeks that Xaden was coming, and hoarded chocolate to make his favorite dessert.

Faris decided to poison the chocolate cake as a test, because he's an evil fuck. Talia didn't know.

Violet knew shit was shady when they sent the young kids away to grandma's house. (Have you ever tried to deny children cake? Yeah, good luck with that.)

Before dinner started, Violet gave Talia a jar of arinment that she’d secretly mixed with tarsilla bark, which thanks to Asher she knows makes a nifty poison.

Violet gave quest squad the antidote before dinner (not specified, she just calls it an appetizer), so Talia served poisoned tea to everyone at the table. Quest squad was immune because they'd already had the antidote.

Violet didn't know Faris was going to try to poison them; she did her poisoning thinking she'd need leverage for failing the triumvirates "test."

Violet used her keen observiness + info from Asher's book to figure out that the cake was poisoned with those berries that the erris birds eat. Asher's book gave her the antidote. (Damn, Papa Sorrengail was really into poisons!)

So...Violet saves Garrick, but Faris & the others are still clueless about what they've been poisoned with and stomach-cramping their way towards Malek. Violet has the upper hand!

Faris was, apparently, willing to die to get one over on Violet? Like sure "I'm gonna die but we'll still kill you & your dragons and that makes me the winner?" Not a particularly impressive bargaining position IMO but Hedotis is weird as hell.

Violet counters this move with a willingness to kill Faris's sons. Not sure she'd actually do it, but when you're about to start shitting blood and the lady with the dragons is threatening your kids, it's tough to feel like you're in the winning position. Game over.

I don't think Talia's marriage is gonna be great after this!

--

Where is quest squad headed now? Zehyllna. It's the island dedicated to Zihnal, the god of luck. Riders have been throwing his name around since Fourth Wing.

Colors seem a bit more vivid in Zehyllna, though still not as bright as the Continent.

People are waving as the riders fly overhead, welcoming them to the island. The group lands in a large field near the capital city, in an area containing hundreds of people who seem to be expecting them.

As the riders dismount from their dragons, Violet realizes that this isle has...magic.

[fishfingersandjellybabies]

Supersons role swap au:

But in this au, Talia gave Damian for adoption so Damian has been living in foster care and has no clue who his biological parents are. Damian becomes friends with Colin but since he’s constantly moving houses, he can’t keep in touch. One day he ends getting in to the superhero biz and finds out that his dad is Batman.

Bruce wants to give his kid some friends so he has Damian meet Jon.

Jon is the one who has evil grandparents in this au, and was kidnapped from Lois and Clark at a young age. And was trained to try and kill the superfamily.

However due to Kon, he got help rehabilitating.

Oh yeah and Damian ends finding out about Talia but Talia in this au is actually a decent mom who wanted her kid to have a better life than what she had in the league.

I am fascinated by a more morally gray Jon, honestly. Like, I think he is - or at least was as a 10 year old before he got screwed over - morally gray, but like, imagine a DARKER gray morally gray ����

and I don't know, I don't tend to like a 'nice/normal' damian. I've tried writing him, I've tried reading him and im like - gimme my lil shithead son back 😂

[onemuseleft]

🖤

🖤: Which character is not as morally good as everyone else seems to think?

You don't specify a fandom, nonny, so I'm gonna go with Batman and pair this up with the previous ask.

And my answer is Jason Todd.

Disclaimer: I love the shit out of Jason Todd. He's one of my favorite characters and is in almost everything I've ever written for this fandom. I'm not saying he's Evil and Bad. I'm saying he's morally gray in a way that makes him deeply interesting but fandom likes to pretend he's just a sad innocent baby who never did anything wrong and it was just The Pit making him do all of that and that's not what happened. Jason made choices! Jason attacked the Bats, Jason killed a bunch of people, Jason founded a criminal empire. Jason did all of that of his own free will. Was he kind of fucked in the head at the time? Yeah, probably! Was he being manipulated by Talia? Depends who you ask! Was there an evil magical force that took control of him and forced him to be mean to the Bats? No! There was not! Watching him negotiate those choices when he decided to become part of the team again was so much more interesting than just him showing up like nothing ever happened and everything is sunshine and puppy dogs.

My second answer is Dick Grayson because fandom writes him as some human golden retriever who cuddles people all the time and can't live off anything but sugary cereal who has never said or done anything mean in his whole life whereas in canon his temper is so well-known that even the Justice League knows about it, he's alienated almost everyone in his life at least once, and also one time he beat a man to death with his bare hands.

[stubbornandgreen]

honestly i've been taken hostage by the concept of a morally-gray-but-not-evil-and-above-ALL-devoted-to-those-she-loves!Talia because. oh my god.

[phinphang000]

DC and fandom can pry morally gray talia who loves her son from my cold dead fuckin fingers

SHE LOVES HIM SHE FUCKIN LOVES HIM STOP MAKING HER THIS EVIL MAD SCIENTIST RAPIST MASTERMIND SHE HAS SO MUCH DEPTH IF YOU JUST WRITE HER HALF AS WELL AS YOU DO YOUR MALE MORALLY GRAY CHARACTERS!!!!!!

AUEVEAJEGWHAGEHAV they are so dear to me

[qcomicsy]

You know what? Fuck Batman and DC writers trying to gaslight me that what Jason does is wrong and dishonest and yara yara yara.

It's so fucking boring at this point.

And just blatantly wrong.

First of all, you cannot just say "oh but thats just bad you're a bad person >:c" at THIS POINT in comics. Because after pushing gray area morals and realism that y'all (writers) braggg SOO MUCH about it. Just going "murder bad >:c you bad >>>:ccc IT'S FUCKING STUPID."

For example. By the comics, (depending in what you believe) Tim Drake is a cheater. Is that what a good person does? In a black and white view. No, it is not therefore Tim is bad. Bruce is a fucking hypocrite who protect and revive a literal mass murder and doesn't hold up the same energy for his own children (HE RAISED) . Nightwing committed murder. Gordon constantly makes exceptions violating the law and his duties as a cop for random non affiliated vigilantes. Harley is irredeemable, because not only she kills and has killed before but also does it for fun. Talia, Damian, hell, even Cass are all murders in certain degrees. Even CATWOMAN wouldn't be saved . That being said. Does the comics considers them a horrible bad villainous people? >:((.

No, because they're fucking human beings and human beings fuck things up. Specially considering multiple circumstances they've been through: social, mental, developing, physical, environmental. It's realistic.

Yeah, so why when it comes for Jason. It's all fucking black and white.

But this is not a Jason apologist post, so if you hoping this take will be "Jason did nothing wrong" you going to be disappointed. Hold up a little because I'm gonna get to the point.

Listen here. I'm all for reparatory justice, honestly most of the time no matter how much it despises me, I do agree with Batman. But unlike him, I and maany people of the fandom, we just have- you know, common sense???

The problem with Batman, Nightwing (well hell why not) and Jason is that those three idiots lack of common sense. Their sense of justice seems like it comes from 14 year old boys. They're all are so trapped in their own traumas and struggles that they NEVER. EVER. Try to look outside their asses and view the villain-gotham-situation from a far away point of view.

Again I blame the writers. Because when they have good writing the generally do have braincells to analyze that.

You >>CANNOT<<. Hold the same energy you have with a mugger and with the fucking Joker. It doesn't make sense. It's just damn right stupid. It's cannon (and even true outside of comics) that the majority of people who turn to crime, are people who had nothing to begin with. Most of them are working class. Most of them are already born in the goddammit CRIME ALLEY. Most of them start before even turning into adults.

It's stated multiple times. That Gotham is a hard city to survive, it is filled with crime. Jason's first contact with crime and drugs and dealers was when he was younger than 10 years old. It's not just stupid, but also dishonest to pretend he was the only one, and all those muggers and henchmen are just terrible people that are there by choice because they're evil and need to be punished and killed. >:C

Some might be, but how the fuck would you know??

Because tale as old as time, if the system is as fucked as a gas leaking, shooting your way out of there isn't going to solve shit. You shoot this mugger today and next day it's going to be another one. There's a fucking reason why countries with high education and opportunities have less crime. There's a reason why gotham is corrupted and cursed. You cannot save everyone. Some people doesn't even want to be saved.

But shooting them is definitely doing more harm them good. Because they were just a mugger but their children might become a killer in ten years because you wanted to play god.

And at the same time. We cannot pretend that a man who went to prison million times. Who has been treated with 181838 who knows how many psychologists, therapists, psychiatrist. Who shows no remorse is as redeemable as someone who is taking cellphones and purses on street for money. Specially a man who tells you over and over again that they will kill, abuse, torture anyone (even people as close to you as possible) and everyone no matter how many times you arrest him and send him away. We cannot act like everybody is made of steal and it's not going to fucking snap at a person like that.

Let's not pretend a single man with flesh and bone have the right to decide what a serial killer fate should be just because he and the killer have a connection 🥺 And he can save him 🥺. And he have a code 😩. And what if he cannot hold himself anymore after 😳😳. Batman should have no authority on how people (people who were directly affected FOR LIFE by Joker) should react/respond to him, but YET DC keep trying to convince us he does.

Its pathetic.

Not killing is a thing. Constantly saving a murder is another.

And I go back to the central point because how Batman, Nightwing and Redhood react to different criminals it's honestly fully dependent on the writer and no one else. And oh boy, how many different interpretations we had over the years huh.

The point is. Both. BOTH. Of their point of view is flawed. You cannot hold your WHOLE belief system in a moral code with less than 10 words. I mean you can, but it won't last. Every situation is a situation. Every person is a person. There isn't no all right and all wrong all done recipe to deal with every fucking criminal existent. And the whole fact that two stubborn man hold into that belief systems with their damn life anyway is the most realistic thing of this setting.

"Jason is a murder and murder is wrong". Therefore "Jason is always wrong and Batman have the right to punish him >:c" Is one of the stupidest takes I've seen a comic book make in a while and I still don't know how they keep getting away with it.

Specially in how his punishments and mistreating coming from his own family are portrayed in the comics.

I don't give a fuck about what Batman think, and I'm goddam tired of Jason's whole arc is reapeating this whole dynamic over and over again.

You want to criticize Redhoods methods??? Then stop being a pussy and do it right addressing the real fucking problems about it.

Address how the people he killed before had a family and how they had to cope with their loss. How the fuck they survived and what they had to do to sustain themselves. Address how a single man cannot logistically always be certain of his informations and background checks, because not even an entire fucking justice system MADE FOR THAT can, and one day sooner or later Jason is going to be wrong. Address how when he plays double agent it doesn't undo the jobs he done for literally mob bosses. And how it doesn't matter he despites and hates himself and how self aware he is he still playing a part in this system as well as Batman does. As Bruce milionaire Wayne does.

And how at some point of his life he will have to confront the fact that. Yeah it was fucked. Yeah it was horrible he didn't deserve that. Fuck yeah Batman sucks. Nightwing sucks. They're all hypocrites. Fuck Joker. He didn't chose to be here. All of that.

But still, in real life, in this present moment. It is Jason fucking Todd who is chosing to do exactly what he's does.

Not Batman. Not Nightwing. Not Joker. Not pretender. Not his mom. Not his biologic father. Not his trauma. Him.

And no "Holly shit you become everything you hate because of the circumstances" and poetic irony regarding his biological dad is going to erase that.

Any day by now, eventually, it should be the consequences of his actions that would bite him in the ass. Not Batman.

Until then it doesn't matter what edgy angst violent discourse and or comic run regarding moral code and what the fuck Batman or the Batfam thinks of Jason's way of living and how does that affect him. I will not give a single fuck about it.

As I said before you have million reasons to criticize Jason life style but don't try to make me care bringing constantly the most stupid and lazy-writing one.

[princeescaluswords]

I've touched on this before, where despite claiming he ~should've done more~ with his druid powers, stans never give him (Deaton) the Stiles treatment where they make him a mighty archmage with a major role in fanfiction. I mean, if you're so upset that he didn't intervene or use better wards or whatever, why not rectify that by writing him smiting hunters with magic or something?

Just kidding, we know WHY haha, because power fantasies like that are reserved for white characters

You know, I've been thinking about it, and I don't think it's as simple as parts of the fandom simply refusing to choose to make a black man powerful. The racism is far more pervasive than that.

Look at the stories where Deaton provides Stiles (or Peter or Derek or sometimes even Scott) with the means to travel back in time and fix everything. They very seldom explain why, if Deaton had the means to go back in time, he didn't use it. We have Deaton's admission that he loved Talia and that "helping [the Hale] family was a big part of my life." I suspect that this doesn't occur to most of these authors because, they are either unable to think that a black male character could act for his own emotional needs or they are unable to conceive a black male character acting in a morally ambiguous manner.

In the end, it's probably a toss up.

Think about how parts of the fandom conceive of Deaton in his most powerful form: The Evil Tree Wizard. For those of you who might not know, this trope doesn't just manifest in fanfiction. This specific interpretation of the actual television show that appeared after Season 3A concluded, was very popular in parts of the fandom, and still nestles like a parasite in the nests of anti-Scott stans. Dissatisfied with the True Alpha story line, they dreamed up -- with literally no evidence whatsoever -- that Deaton stole the Hale Spark from Derek and gave it to Scott using the Nemeton. There are more benign versions, such as that Deaton knew that teaching Scott how to pain-drain would lead him to becoming an alpha while corrupting him like Deucalion, but all the versions have in common the idea that Deaton used his mysterious powers to make Scott an alpha. (I think that Deaton did play a role in guiding Scott to become a True Alpha, but it was through being a positive role model and father figure, and not magic.)

Usually, the response from actual fans of the show is most often a confused squint, but I want to propose an alternative reaction: good for Deaton! Why wouldn't a benevolent father figure want to help his protege reach his full potential as a werewolf and use the means at his disposal to do so. In addition, it would also free Scott from having to follow Peter -- a villain who murdered his own niece for power, a fact which no amount of hand-wringing excuses will change -- or Derek who, in Deaton's opinion, was not particularly competent.

Cue the offended gasps from racist Hale-stans. To them, black characters (or any non-white character to be honest) are not allowed to be motivated by their emotional needs. Stiles can lie to everyone on the cast because he's insecure, Derek can Bite teenagers in a war zone because he's lonely, and Peter can become a serial killer because he was in a coma, but Deaton cannot boost a child whom he considers hard-working and virtuous into becoming an alpha.

After the gasps die down, the racist Hale-stans suddenly turn into people concerned with morality. Shades-of-gray vanish when the individual operating with moral ambiguity isn't a white male character. Deaton doesn't have the right to take the Hale spark, the Hale territory, the Hale land from Peter -- who has the right to take the spark away from Laura because she may or may not have visited him while he was in a coma -- or from Derek, who attacked Deaton and would have straight up killed him on a hunch. It would be wrong.

Let me give you another example of this. Ever notice that a common occurrence in Archmage-Super-Spark Stiles stories, he's bloodthirsty and violent towards his enemies but also to the people he 'cares about' but only if they're Latinos. Super-Spark Stiles throws Scott against walls, strips him of his alpha status, there is even a recent story where Stiles strips Scott of the ability to speak for five hours because Scott tried to defend his actions. The hilarious part is that so often one of Super-Spark Stiles's complaints to Scott is that Scott used his unwanted werewolf bite to become first line. Because that's selfish! And Stiles will prove it to Scott by punishing Scott for the crime of using the new-found power granted to him by lycanthropy selfishly by ... using his new-found power to torture Scott.

See what I'm getting at here? There's no point in them writing power fantasies for non-white characters because the fandom can't conceive of non-white characters having motivations that satisfy them emotionally or taking actions that might be morally questionable. Non-white characters are either Evil or Selfless Buzzkills. It's the same way traumatic events which happen to characters of color seem to vanish from fandom's collective memory -- like when people argue that Scott never suffered in the television show. The empathy gap is wider and deeper than you might have imagined.

[dyslexicandakeyboard]

While I am anti Talia, I've read the original comics and I've read Talia stans defences/arguments, so I'll give my two cents if thats okay.

Many Talia stans will state something like:

She tended to Bruce's injuries/really cared for him so she's actually good

She actually cares for Damian so she's actually good

She's an anti heroine so all the stuff she did was for good reason

She cares for rape victims and children so she's actually good

She's not actually evil like Ra's so she's actually good

It's a character assassination for works written post 90s and if you read the original interpretation she's an anti heroine so she's actually good

She's an environmentalist so she's actually good

If you've read the original comics (Tec 411, Batman 232 and 235 are just examples) you can see the appeal of Talia. As a morally gray villain, she brushes the line between good and evil and she willing to help the people she loves. During the early 2000's (President Lex), Talia became more of an anti heroine. This makes for a complex, compelling character with growth to back her up, something which fandom is said to loves(tho judging by her stans, it's debatable).

(While this may depend on whether the Talia stan is also an Al Ghul stan) There is also the abuse aspect of Talia's story. You'll find that Talia was raised to be an assassin by her dad, Ra's, and some people will say she was indoctrinated into the League. People relate to her due to this and want to she her overcome this and live a better life.

Then there is the reason that Talia is one of the few Arab (She's actually mixed Chinese/Arab, but I'll use Arab to be more concise plus people aren't all that normal about we mixed people lol) characters that DC have. By making Talia any type of bad, people for some reason think that makes her bad representation and thus need to defend her. (There is a valid point to it but this line of thought can lead us down a bad path)

All the things you said in the tags, many stans don't see a problem with anything you listed here or they erase it. Unless you state that Talia is abusive or a rapist(Not saying she is) in big bold letters, Talia stans will not see the action as bad. This is why a lot of the shit she got up to in past comics or modern comics is taken as 'hashtag girlbossing 😝🤪 she's so mother/she's such a good mother to x (ignores the gaslighting and manipulation)'.

Talia defenders and stans are weird subset of fans, like Deathstroke defenders/fans.

If this wasn't response isn't wanted please tell me, I'll delete it.

asking in a very neutral, gen way: what talia ever did in the comics to manage to gain fans/defenders? because everything i read just paints her as a villain and a bad mother, so...

[sohotthateveryonedied]

okay so you don't have to answer this publicly (because I'm kinda scared Talia fans will come after me if you do >__>) but I'm confused about something.

Why do I see so much of the fandom on here stan Talia? Like, I get people can stan who they want to obviously - no judgement there. But I've seen a lot of people play the race card like "y'all don't like her because she's a WOC" and they act like she's this great mom and some true love to Bruce and it feels like they're completely forgetting that she fucking drugged and RAPED Bruce and has tried to kill her son before.

Like... am I missing something??? Am I crazy??? I'm so confused. I know she was kick ass in the animated series and I liked her in that! But she fucking raped Bruce and people act like he should just get over it and be with her. I'm???? Like if the same thing happened to a female character, I assume these people would be outraged, right?? So is it a weird hypocrisy or am I missing something?

I'm not trying to attack anyone, I swear. I'm just really confused.

(please keep in mind that i haven't read many talia-centric comics aside from the resurrection of ra's al ghul, death and the maidens, robin: son of batman, etc so i'm only saying what i've gathered so far based on what other people have said. i don't have much actual authority on this since i'm not as knowledgeable of talia's character as others, so if anyone wants to add on to this post with any additional details or to correct anything i got wrong, please feel free to do so!!)

Okay so!! To answer your question simply, the reason there are so many Talia stans is mostly that she's an interesting character and they like her. It's the same reason people stan any character. Talia may be morally gray at times, but so are other characters like Deathstroke and Harley Quinn, and plenty of people like them for this reason. It's not rocket science.

In a more complicated explanation, the reason there is so much support for Talia is that her character got...pretty butchered over time? (Personally, I prefer her as an anti-hero of sorts because I find that more interesting to read, but not everyone sees it that way and that's perfectly fine because at this point there are so many different interpretations of Talia al Ghul that it's hard to determine what she's REALLY like right now in canon. Not to mention how she's depicted in other media like the animated movies and TV shows.)

Before the 2009-ish era (AKA before Grant Morrison got their hands on her) Talia wasn't the "evil rapist" people nowadays label her as. She loved Bruce and he loved her. Talia was loyal to her father, but over time her love for Bruce became more powerful than her loyalty to Ra's. This was a fairly major aspect of Talia's character—her love for Bruce vs her loyalty to her dad. She was ambitious and morally ambiguous, but she was also a romantic. And overall, she was a caring person with a good heart. This was how Talia al Ghul was presented to fans for over thirty years.

Batman #232

Detective Comics Annual #1

Talia and Bruce were even married for a while, though I'm not sure how much of a say Bruce had in that marriage? From what I've gathered, Bruce was drugged and forced into a marriage with Talia. Bruce didn't consider the marriage binding and kind of just...forgot about it, I guess?

DC Special Series Vol 1 #15

Then years later the Son of the Demon storyline happened and Bruce says "fuck it, let's be married" and he hangs out with the al Ghul's as Ra's' son-in-law and Talia's husband. That's when Bruce and Talia conceived Damian in the original canon. Bruce slept with Talia consensually and they conceived a baby together.

Batman: Son of the Demon

Soon after, Talia faked a miscarriage in order to "save" Bruce from losing his edge as Batman. She ended up having the child in secret and giving him up for adoption (until decades later when the kid will show up again as our favorite brat, Damian Wayne <3).

Batman: Son of the Demon

This is where Grant Morrison comes in. When Damian shows up again in Batman #655, changes are made to better "accommodate" the fact that Bruce and Talia's kid who was put up for adoption in 1987 is now ten years old and spent his whole life being raised by the League of Assassins. Morrison made some iffy changes to the situation, the most major one being that the tryst between Bruce and Talia was no longer consensual. Instead Morrison made it so that Talia drugged Bruce and had sex with him without his consent so that she could have his child. Yikes, yikes, yikes.

Batman #656

In reference to this decision, here is Morrison's justification in an interview with Wizard's Magazine:

“For a long time, [DC] said [Son of the Demon] was out of continuity. Now it's just kind of out of continuity. I didn't actually read it before I started writing this. I messed up a lot of details, like Batman wasn't drugged when he was having sex with Talia and it didn't take place in the desert. I was relying on shaky memories. But now we have this new "Superboy punch" continuity. People still don't realize how important that single punch was to cover everyone's ass.”

Personally, not taking into account the timeline-fuckery and uncertainty of what's canon and what isn't, I think this move was mostly for the purpose of making Talia a villain right from the get-go so Morrison could use her as an antagonist in future Damian storylines. In a way, this part (the antagonist role, not the rape) makes sense, since Talia has been falling more towards the "bad guy" side of the scale at this point in time. This is due to the 2004 storyline, Death and the Maidens.

Death and the Maidens is what I interpret as the start of Talia's "bad guy" phase, which makes sense, considering that she was killed and dumped into the Lazarus Pit by her sister Nyssa like a million times in one day. Nyssa did this with the intention to torture and brainwash her sister into a weapon to use against Ra's. By the end of all this torture, Talia is now a hardened enemy of both Ra's al Ghul and Batman.

Death and the Maidens #5

Personally, I think it would have been better to leave the Son of the Demon storyline intact instead of rewriting Talia's character completely. Death and the Maidens was the turning point for her; it makes no sense to go back forty years and paint her as a villain right from the start when not only is it unfair to her character, but it just...doesn't make sense? If DC wants to see Talia as an antagonist for a bit, that's fine, but just work with what you already have instead of turning her into a crazy rapist? It's bad writing, plain and simple.

Anyway, that's why people are generally against the whole "Talia raped Bruce" narrative since it was a retcon anyway and an incredibly bad one at that.

As for why people love Talia...I mean, she is super cool and badass. Also she's a total MILF, so I can definitely see the appeal.

Batman (2016) #33

Batman (2016) #34

[bluebeetle]

ok maybe a softball start: Jason Todd

Fhhdhdd yeah

1. Ok obvious one ive bitched about: he doesnt hate bruce or talia. He loves them both esp bruce like... Thats his dad??? Who he thot was gonna save to the very, who he forgives for not being able to, and who he could have killed many times but never wanted to. Bruce is one of his biggest motivations and it plays a lot into the climax of utrh where he gives bruce the ultimatum of kill joker or kill me, basically saying hed rather not be alive in a world where his father lets his killer continue to hurt ppl lol. At no point does he try to kill bruce.

As for talia she wasnt like... Trying to manipulate him she just thought bruce was in the wrong for his handling of jasons death. And only helped jay down his path of red hood, not forced him. She cared about him a lot, far than her father who woulda had jason locked away forever without his family ever knowing he was alive.

2. Speaking of motivation, jasons not like evil and has motivation outside of bruce like... He wanted joker dead not bc he killed jason, but bc he killed jason and paralyzed batgirl and hurt so many ppl after he died... Jason wanted to continue being a hero but he felt bruces methods of repeated jail wasnt good enough for some people like joker who will never change

3. Jason is empathetic but his empathy has a limit. He has a surprisingly black and white way of thinking for an anti hero: theres victims and innocents who he has empathy for and then theres criminals who he does not, and its very easy for him to then justify killing said criminals. He essentially has a mindset where violence is the best way to deal with abusers and criminals, from both his troubled upbringing where he felt helpless and his time with bruce who does have a tendancy to solve everything with a punch. He even gets joy outta hurting ppl as a result bc to him hes doing a good thing and the ends justify the means. But it doesnt make him cruel and uncaring to those he has deemed good.

Jason still falls into a moral gray zone i feel tho but like whats less important on if his actions r moral is: do they mesh with HIS inner logic and morality?

4. Hes like... Actually smart. Lile hes a nerd whos shown liking classical lit, threatre, history, and keeps up well with the news and did really well in school. I find way too many ppl writr him off as stupid bc of his background of being poor and briefly homeless and the fact that he dropped out of school twice for circumstances out of his control.

5. He should be allowed 2 b funny and kind of an asshole. Hes a robin he loves making fun of people during fights and should be allowed to be mean to his siblings BUT again he.isnt all anger and mean all the time he can be reserved and nice too!!!!!!

Also bonus 6: stop acting like poor and homeless ppl are all doomed.to be criminals unless some rich guy helps them, writers. Jasons death was a tragedy, and him being red hood was not inevitable.

[jostenneil]

do you have any dc fic recs?

a few! mostly batfam related at present

and flings an oath, but says no more / this is a little canon divergence thing where war games doesn’t happen and steph doesn’t die, instead it’s more her coming into her role as a well deserved accomplice to bruce and the fam. i think half of the bat boys are evil tho but that’s a minor detail and the premise overall is fun

give and take / this is a really sweet and clever batcat fic that i think paints their dynamic and banter as vigilantes versus as normal people so well like the humor of it all is divine and it’s fun to see bruce manage to be charming and awkward at the same time

a different type of worldview / a wally centric fic about how being a father both impacts and evolves his perspective on heroism. it’s subtle but touching and i think my favorite part of it is the interspersed text convos between wally and linda where they go bonkers over their beautiful speed demon children

some days / a short introspective fic from damian’s perspective wherein he compares gotham and his old life on the island and realizes that there’s parts of his childhood that weren’t all that bad (i think it’s a bit of a fix-it attempt in that sense)

don’t take the money / this is a canon divergence au meta thing that operates off of the versions of bruce, talia, and harvey that exist within the btas canon and makes their lives intersect in very interesting ways. it’s hard to explain but i love the atmosphere and melancholy of it all like it’s a nice noir piece i think

last word wisdom better get some even too late / a take on jason’s resurrection in vein of the antigone myth and anne carson’s take on it via her infamous work antigonick. the piece is written like a stage play of sorts esp towards the end and i just think it’s a nice representation of what the moral grays and ambiguities of his character should have reflected had they been written by someone. . . smarter lol

make monsters of men / lost days canon divergence where jason does in fact kill the joker. i enjoyed a lot of the wordplay

where do your roots begin (and where do your roots end) / fic that allows a little more humanization of the talia that raises damian and asks some questions about what it means to deserve, and what damian’s two legacies entail for him in the future

dick’s in peril, jason saves him, and then the games begin / fic written by my beloved doaa that explores a scenario wherein jason meets dick as robin when the latter is injured on a mission, and then figures out robin is dick grayson thereafter. some of the exposition really goes for the jugular and makes me weepy

serious / bruce lands himself in a pickle and ends up being truth serumed. talia saves him. they banter. it’s a run of the mill thing for them and that’s what makes it all the more romantic. i just love their easy dialogue with each other and how bruce is almost. . . boyish with her. hopeful. not as rough around the edges

all the roofs of uncertainty / ok. listen. i know most people hate the version of dick who calls jason “little wing” and like i Truly get it and do think it’s a bit of a fantasy created by the batfam agenda in comics, but. this fic gets so meta and it navigates so many interesting conversations through jason when dick ends up in a coma and the former is meeting all of these people cycling in and out of the hospital ward so i just. love it a lot like it’s a labor of love yknow

[lizziemack]

Talia is not inherently good or evil, but like raising Damian to be an assassin for the first ten years of his life is not ok.

To me, the league feels a lot like a cult centered around Rah’s (I like to headcannon it that ways, because I identify with the narrative of escaping an abusive belief system but like idk). He has an inordinate amount of control over Talia, and I’ve seen arguments that she had no choice but to raise Damian in that way, but like, that strips her of agency. To me the point where you shift from victim to perpetrator is when you fail to protect a child. That doesn’t mean she’s evil, but she’s not a good mom.

Idk I’ve seen a lot of stuff on here about how people unfairly vilainize her, and I agree with that to some extent but like, you can’t deal with her on the binary of good and evil. She’s a flawed mother, but she loves her kid. She’s a loyal daughter but she makes her own decisions. She’s a powerful woman, but sometimes she uses that power to cause pain. She’s a complex character, and I really relate to Damian’s struggle to come to terms with their relationship because on the one hand she hurt him, but on the other, she did it because she believed that it would help him, and she genuinely loves him, and i’m sure other people with similar parents relate to it too.

Anyways you can rip morally gray talia from my cold dead hands lol

[black-streak]

Waiting for the Worms- In the Flesh.

Part 16

No editing, we die like men: ill prepared and confused. Did I read this over even once before posting? Nope.

Warnings back fully into effect. Have triggers? Just go ahead and avoid this. Don't want to spoil anything, so I wont say which, but guys, you've seen my other chapters for this. You know better.

This was actually fun to write with my weird view point that's both in the moment and yet so disconnected.

CLOSED list of hooligans: @northernbluetongue @thethirdwheelfriend @shizukiryuu @theatreandcomicfreak @michellemagic @karategirl119 @moonlightstar64 @my-name-is-michell @mystery-5-5 @zalladane @queen-of-the-trash-planet-tm @miraculousdisapointment @dorkus-minimus @jardimazul @allthebooksandcrannies @g-arya @worlds-tiniest-spook-pastry @persephonescat @mycupisbroken @luciferge @18-fandoms-unite-08 @dawnwave16 @alwaysreblogneverpost @kris-pines04 @mysteriouslyswimmingfan-blo-blog @weird-pale-blonde-person @you-will-never-know-how-i-think @kokotaru @naclychilli @slytherinhquinn @clumsy-owl-4178 @ladybug-182 @darkthunder1589 @evil-elf16 @dast218 @lysslovsanime @emilytopaz @naoryllis @iloontjeboontje @thepeacetea @danielslilangel @finallyaniguana @i-like-fairytail-and-stuff @vixen-uchiha @yuulxd @bleeding-heart-romantic @magic-inthe-stars @st0rmy-w1th1n

~---~

Following Damian back into the living room, she saw the group all gathered around their phones, whispering amongst themselves. Approaching soundlessly, she peeked over Juleka's shoulder, catching sight of the screen at the same time Jason did. 

The Joker. He had escaped Arkham once more and now held a broadcast, obviously attempting to get the attention of the Batman. Apparently he set up a new game for them to play. To make matters worse, the prize for winning? The return of Robin. A young looking boy in a different form of the Robin suit was shown for only a moment, glaring at the camera in his face. The timer was set and the broadcast cut. 

That location, it was far closer to their own location than the Wayne manor. Bruce wouldn't make it. It was her and Jason all over again. 

Jason.

Turning on her heel, she took a deep breath and swallowed hard to settle the anger rising in her throat and took command.

"Damian, see to Jason, keep him calm. The pit is about to take hold," she spoke calmly, Damian nodded and lead the taller man away as she turned towards the group watching her every move, "I'm setting out. Jason is likely to come with me. You'll watch over Damian in my absence. I do not expect any of the kwamis to wish to transform with me, but if you decide to, you'll need to be morally ambiguous unlike Tikki or Plagg. Neither of us will be held back or redirected. You'll have to accept whatever comes of this," looking away from the kwamis and to the bristling teens in front of her, she hardened her gaze, "Unless one of you has experience with the Lazarus Pits and their effects, you will stay away from either of us or that building. Judging by the gasps I hear from the kwamis, they will enforce this for me if you decide not to heed my words."

Stalking into her room once more, she started to drag out bags, open compartments in drawers, pull off seemingly decorative pieces from the walls. Longg approached her carefully from the side.

"I will transform with you. The others would feel more comfortable if one of you were superpowered and I'm morally gray unlike the main set."

Nodding, she took his piece carefully, "I need you to make my suit stealthy. I will not be caught due to bright colors."

"The suit will match your will," he reassured.

Transforming, she took in the multiple shades of grey and black lining her body in waves, selective holding pouches hidden within the fabric. Placing her knives about her body, she found a retractable bladed staff along her thigh. Perfect, one less large piece to carry. 

Grabbing a mask, she slipped out to find Jason mostly calm. Taking his hand in hers, she led him to the bathroom and handed him his own clothes back from the league missions.

"He won't be transforming?" Marc inquired.

"His body is more riddled with madness. It's less than it would be had his soul been dipped as mine has, but I've had time to tame and curb the insanity. He hasn't. Add superpowers to the mix?"

"He'll level a city," Plagg spoke up.

"Exactly."

"And you're taking him with you?" Kagami growled out, obviously against the idea.

"Would you rather I leave him here so he can accidently kill one of you and hate himself for the rest of his life? Besides, he has no attachment towards Damian yet. I'm not risking it," her tone brokered no arguments and Jason emerged in that moment. He immediately went into her room and pulled out a gun from her side drawer, muscle memory letting him navigate the place as his own. He put it in the holster on his thigh and went towards her equipment, still out and waiting for him, sifting through until he found a larger set of machetes, grabbing them and a second mask before rejoining her at the window to the fire escape. With just a glance towards the other they knew their minds were in sync.

"Damian, stay and watch them," Jason ordered, the kid nodding at his given mission, turning towards the team with crossed arms. 

With that, they climbed out and took off across the rooftops.

…

The run went by in a blur of motion neither could remember. Now they crouched on the edge of the building the Joker was supposedly in, scoping out the entrances. She could feel Jason practically vibrating at her side and traced spirals along his spine to keep him mentally in place.

"Shhh, focus on my instructions Jason. Those voices aren't as important as our own," she murmured, finding an unguarded door. The idiot never used obvious doors, so of course the clown wasn't focused on them as much as the windows, basement and roof access. The door she found looked like an old employee entrance, easily overlooked. 

"Jay?" Before she could finish the inquiry, he moved forward and picked the lock, letting them in, keeping in front of her.

"Based on the lighting in that video, I'd guess they're keeping him further up. What do you think?"

"Likely midway up, seventh or eighth level."

They skirted their way up staircases, quietly knocking out anyone they found on their way up. Occasionally they stopped to practice deep breaths, as the further up they went, the more vivid the green in their eyes glowed. Both could sense the impending catalyst and tried to press the insanity back. They wanted this to be on their own terms.

At about the sixth level, Jason found himself having to hold Mari back, having almost torn out a guys throat for simply struggling too much in the takedown. 

"Not worth it. Not yet."

Breathing heavily, the voices dropped back to reasonable levels, allowing their continued movement. Mari found herself meditating as they went, recentering herself. One of them had to stay fully self aware and she knew it had to be her. Jason needed someone to watch out for him in his first true rush, not to panic in the middle when no one could hold them back. She would be there the way Talia had been for her. As Damian normally was.

At the ninth floor, they found their target.

Marinette felt borderline insulted at the difference in treatment.

The current Robin was swinging upside down, bound in rope and gagged. 

They had been chained to an operation table, beaten to a pulp with every moment too long the bat took. This boy didn't even have a guard on him. Sure, there were boobytraps set all over the damn place that they painstakingly dismantled one at a time, but even still. Not a scratch on the kid's face. Shaking the thought, Mari chided herself. Her anger was reserved for the people who put them in this situation, not some boy that was obviously dragged into the adults' personal issues. She knew when they escaped and the madness leveled out, relief for his unharmed state would course through her like a tidal wave. For now, she felt contempt and resignation. When the last trap finally fell apart, they heard his voice.

"Batsy! So you finally decide to show on time for one of your pretty birds?" It called, still not in view.

Jason bristled in her peripheral and she yanked him around quickly to focus in on her, aware of the hanging kid's eyes trained on them.

"Save Robin. He can't. He won't. We know this. Do what he didn't for us. Save. Him."

Jason's pupils blew under the mask and a growl tore from his throat as he turned towards the masked child, letting the anger direct itself into righting the injustice done unto him.

Marinette turned back towards the voice, creeping forward, bladed staff withdrawn and extended. She watched its shadow as it twisted along the walls. Finally, it turned the wrong corner and she slammed the side of the staff against him, letting the staff glide along their body as they were forced back, the tip catching their chest and opening a gash through his suit.

Joker jolted, gasping and confused, "You're not Batsy."

A feral grin grew upon her face, "No, but I'm so much more fun, wouldn't you say?" she activated wind dragon, blowing him further back across the room until he stumbled and fell onto his back. He quickly grabbed up a device and smiled maniacally, holding it up to view, starting a spiel about what it would do if he pressed this particular button, blah blah blah. She wasn't here for his rambling. Activating electric dragon, she launched herself into the device, shorting it out into a useless hunk of metal. Reappearing in front of him, she drew out her blades, only to hear quiet feet land in the room over. 

"And what exactly did you have in mind, girly?" He asked, licking at the corner of his mouth in a weird tic sort of a way. 

Placing a grin to rival his own across her face, she tilted her head, "It is not what I'll do that should concern you. Rather, what I'll allow him to do," she watched annoyed confusion flicker across the clownesque features as Jason appeared at her side, a second set seeming to approach her from behind. Reaching back, one hand grabbed a thin shoulder in a harsh grip to keep the kid in his place, the other went to her side to grip a broad shoulder in a more crushing grip to keep Jason from moving too soon. She turned and looked into masked, violently green eyes.

"Do you want to?" A nod. "Will you regret it?" A shake. "Will you take back your mind when it's over?" Another nod. "He's all yours, Bird. Get it out of your system, find me when you're done." A growl.

She let go and turned towards the kid, bodily backing him up into the other room, out of view.

"You don't want to see this."

"Who are you?"

"Does it matter?"

"No, I'll figure it out either way. Be nice if you made it easy though."

"Hmm, how does one become a Robin? Oh yeah, the previous one either leaves or dies."

"You don't mean," the kid's eyes widen.

"He shouldn't of allowed another one. Isn't one child dying for his cause enough?"

"It's not like that," he grew defensive.

"Isn't it though? Whether you wanted it or not, if anything happens to you, it's because he decided another child could fight actual murderers."

"That's beside the point, I need to stop them," he tried to push past her only for her to activate wind dragon and pick him straight up and out of the building to another rooftop, letting him go at the top, though grabbing his grapple as she reformed.

"Do you recognize this part of the city?"

"What are you doing? Let me back in there," he sounded panicked.

"Breath, little bird. Do you recognize where we are?"

"I- yes. I recognize it."

"Do you know how far it is from Wayne Manor?"

"What does that-" he attempted playing dumb.

"Do you?"

"Of course I do!"

"I know you do. You're a smart little bird. Very well learned. You know how long it takes to get here from the Manor as well don't you? And what time the broadcast went up?"

The kid's face darkened, and while he obviously didn't want to admit it, he could obviously make the calculations.

"He wouldn't have made it on time."

"It was on purpose. Joker wants to remind him of his greatest failure," the teen, she realized, rationalized.

"Batman isn't the only one Joker reminded. People don't take kindly to reminders of their dying day."

"So you two are?"

"Undead? In a funny way, yes. And absolutely riddled with destructive insanity."

"You don't seem it."

"I've had time to repress it. Learn control and stability. Him, not so much. This is his first relapse. There's no preventing it. Only directing it. I figure taking out an actual child murderer, who has tortured and ended the life of hundreds, including the sick and dying would be an alright outlet."

"It's immoral."

"We both know the only reason Bruce won't kill is that he wouldn't stop once he started. He'd lose control entirely. It's nothing to do with morality. Otherwise he wouldn't turn a blind eye to the select hits Alfred made in his time."

"How do you know so much?"

"How do you?"

"I figured it out on my own and decided for him."

"Very clever of you. But you didn't decide for him, he let you and took advantage of your determination. I'm sure in more ways than this one." She picked his arguments apart, remembering the way Talia detached Damian from herself. She didn't like the idea of manipulating a kid into disowning his own family, but a toxic situation was still toxic. She'd contact Alfred later to get back in touch as well as a better read on the situation.

As the teen became frustrated once more, he moves towards her to get back his gear only for Jason to drop next to them, breathing heavily with blood dripping down his arms and from the blades across his back, down onto his legs and the ground surrounding.

He seemed to slowly come back from the insanity, leaning into her, "I killed him. Fuck, I killed him," he gasped. 

Marinette reached up and stroked his head in soothing motions.

"It's okay, Jay, it's okay. He deserved it. You hate taking another's life and feel the weight of it, but it wasn't a life that was regrettable to end," she whispered, remembering the words that assuaged her own guilt.

"The-the Joker is dead?" The teen before them whispered.

Jason peeked up at the little Robin before them, the green sparking for another moment, "He made another? Replaced us? The mantle should have died when you did. Dick should have stopped him," he groaned out, hatred and fear pulsing in waves.

"Oh shit, you're the last Robin. Jason," the teen's breath caught, half in awe, half dread.

"Yeah, the last. Why? You shouldn't be here," his voice quivered.

Mari handed the grappling gear back over, looking him directly in his hidden eyes, "I know you're going to tell him Jason's back. That he killed the Joker. I'm sure you'll even mention me. But I'm sure he'll notice our own message."

"And what would that be?"

"We were the ones to save you. Not him. Let me know if you ever need an escape from that nightmare."

With that, she lead Jason away, having heard his breathing even out and calm moments before.

"Let's go home," she whispered in his ear, getting a soft nod and taking off back across the roofs.

[wesavegotham]

Talia, Damian and choosing between good and evil

Before Grant Morrison created Damian in 2006 Talia was seen as one of Bruce's greatest loves for a long time. She was the first love interest of Bruce that showed him from a more passionate side:

Bruce and Talia loved each other, but Talia could never really choose between her loyalty to her father and her love for Bruce, even though in most stories she would end up helping Bruce against Ra's.

While she was morally gray, Talia was originally a kind character, who fought against child rapists, murderes and other villains, patched Bruce up when he was hurt or down and even threw herself between Bruce and bullets that were about to hit him. In the 1987 graphic novel "Son of the demon" the two even married and Talia got pregnant. Bruce went pretty much overboard trying to keep Talia and their unborn child safe and almost got himself killed in the process. Which is why Talia lied to him about suffering from a miscarriage and asked him to leave her. Later she gave birth to their unnamed son and gave him to an orphanage:

The graphic novel was later taken out of continuity because DC didn't like the implication of Bruce having sex and not knowing that he had a child when he's supposed to be the world's greatest detective.

The reason I'm mentioning this story is because it would later serve as the base for Damian's creation in 2006. While the idea of Bruce and Talia having a child came up in Elseworld stories before (Ibn in "Kingdom Come" and Tallant Wayne in "Batman: League of the Batmen") the introduction of Damian marked the first time their son became canon in the main DC universe.

When Grant Morrison started his run on Batman he decided to bring "Son of the demon" back into continuity, but didn't bother to read the graphic novel he only vaguely remembered. His vague memory ended up basically destroying Talia's original character, something she hasn't recovered from since 2006.

In his memory they didn't have a consensual relationship and Talia raped Bruce to have a child. Morrison reduced her to the "Asian Babymama" trope and turned her into a mustache twirling villain, a worse version of Ra's basically, who turned evil because Bruce rejected her. Suddenly she was willing to sacrifice both Bruce and Damian to reach her goal of ruling the world. I have a lot of issues with this premise, most importantly its racist and sexist undertones, but this post wouldn't end if I started ranting and there are fans who are more knowledgeable about Talia and better at explaining why this sucks so much.

Grant Morrison later admitted that he remembered the story wrong and tried to explain that Talia went evil because of the continuity changes Superboy Prime punching the universe caused (Don't ask, comics are weird) and that when Bruce accused Talia of drugging him Bruce was actually lying about getting drugged, because he didn't want to admit to himself that he had loved her and slept with her out of his own volition.

If you don't believe me, here is the link to the interview: https://www.blogtalkradio.com/hotb/2016/11/15/064-the-zorro-of-arkham--an-interview-with-grant-morrison

Think what you will about that explanation. Fact is, the last time Bruce commented on Damian's conception he said this:

So to all the people who love to yell that Talia is a rapist and Damian a rape-baby, kindly shut up. Morrison's mistake got retconned years ago.

Anyway, Damian inherited Talia's struggle to choose between Ra's and Bruce, only that they turned Talia into a second Ra's and gave all her previous conflicts to her son, which is probably one of the reasons DC is unwilling to return her to her former character.

Some writers like Patrick Gleason have tried to give her some redemption, like when he wrote that Talia had been posessed during Morrison's run and cleansed during her resurrection, but the rest of DC pretty much ignored his attempt.

I'm not a fan of DC's extremely black and white, good and evil narrative they have created for Damian and the execution is pretty lackluster.

First of all, it's pretty racist that the Al-Ghuls lost a lot of their complexity over the years to serve as Damian's dark and evil side of the family, while the batfamily (which is pretty white) is presented as the light and good side. It gives me major "white saviour" vibes and has lots of unfortunate implications, especially because DC likes to pretend that Damian is white and only touches his arab/chinese roots when they write him in a more negative light. DC does the same thing with Talia, where they draw her as white when she's more sympathetic and give her brown skin when she's evil.

Second of all, DC loves to label Bruce as a man of high morality, but I think he's actually a pretty bad hero and parent. Some part of me is convinced Talia isn't allowed to be a better mother because it would make Bruce look bad in comparison.

I talked enough about why I don't think of modern Batman as a good person and a hero in my previous post, so I'm going to focus on Talia and Ra's Al-Ghul.

Making Talia evil robs her of her character and history, erases one of Bruce's most important romantic relationships and after a while it just lacks story potential. If the Al-Ghuls have no redeeming qualities then writing Damian struggling so much between the two sides becomes baffling after a going through this character arc several times.

You can argue that Damian got gaslighted for years and that he was still an impressionable child, but if the Al-Ghuls are really as evil, brutal and selfish as DC writes them nowadays it makes it really hard to sympathize with anyone who thinks about joining them (which happens a lot with the batfamily).

Another fact that DC loves to forget is that originally Ra's used to be an eco-terrorist. He planned to wipe out some part of the human population to save plants and animals from extinction, which is extremely relevant today. Ra's is a villain, we don't have to argue about that, but he used to have more depth that made him interesting as a character and made it more plausible why someone might join him. He also loved his daughter, which explained why Talia struggled to leave him in her old stories.

The way they are written now it makes little sense why Bruce should have so much respect for Ra's, something that made their relationship special, there is no reason why Bruce ever loved Talia and decided to sleep with her and there's no reason why Damian should ever return to the League.

Establishing a more loving relationship, both between Bruce and Talia, even if it's in the past, and a better relationship between Damian and Talia has a lot more story potential for Damian's seemingly never ending storyline where he can't decide if he wants to follow Bruce's methods (whatever that means for modern Batman) or the way of his mother. Because as it stands his character developement is stuck in a loop where he just looks like a boy who is unable to learn and can't see how one of the possible options has nothing going for it.