#such as how Edwin's queer repression comes in

[aliensubstance-011]

Demon!Edwin Au

Me and a pal have been throwing this idea around for a little bit and I'm obsessed so here's a Demon!Edwin AU:

Edwin still crawls out of hell around the same time Charles is dying, but really wasn't expecting to find a very much still living human

So, as to not scare him to bad (the guy's dying, and Edwin certainly isn't a cruel demon), Edwin takes human form

He's... seen those enough to get it right...right?

So Charles, in his dying moments, meets Edwin. It's just that his limbs are a little too long, his joints twist just a bit too far, eyes just a little too lifeless

Oh, and he looks like he's from the early 1900s. So Edwin lies and says his a ghost- which Charles believes, until he's a ghost himself.

In which Charles figures that Edwin definitely isn't a human, but it's not like he's doing any harm, is he?

At first, Edwin doesn't particularly care for this human- he's just another one off to his afterlife, and Edwin is far more concerned with getting used to this new body.

But this human is...kind of charming, actually. and when he decides to stay with Edwin? Well, Edwin has 30 years to fully figure out his human/ghost persona.

Onto more general stuff:

Edwin doesn't particularly care about mortal life- human beings are like little ants to him, they live, they die and go to their afterlife.

But to Charles? Other people, especially helping them, is important to him- and Charles is important to Edwin.

So Edwin tries. They form the Dead Boy Detectives, and the plot of the show moves on!

That 'We didn't matter. Him and I' scene is mainly about Charles, but he slots himself in there to not only because it somewhat reflects how demons treat each other in hell, but because Edwin is extremely distraught about how anyone could treat Charles the way most people in Charles' life did.

Overall, Edwin is very bad at being a demon, but only a little bad about being a human ghost.

[iwritenarrativesandstuff]

literally the easiest way to make someone care about a character and make them feel well-rounded beyond basic traits like personality, sexuality, ethnicity, etc, is to give them an actual character arc, and it’s shocking how many people do not seem to fully realize this

you cannot just cram a bunch of tropes. tropes are not the main event, they are tools to tell the story you wish to tell. emotional impact comes from the lead up, so you can’t just jump ahead and expect the payoff to work. “I want this character to just ___ already!” but they’re not there yet. that’s where the arc comes in - how do they get there?

and! most importantly, and this is something I really want people to think about when writing - the most important relationship your character should have, always, is with the world and society around them. defining your character purely through their interactions with other characters are, I find, how a lot of female characters end up feeling flat or not engaging with the themes as much as the male characters, and also how queer and non-white characters wind up as devices for other characters’ development instead of being more fleshed out

[neil-gaiman]

Hey Neil,

We saw Edwin almost kiss someone male presenting in the trailer and over several comic interpretations Edwin was always implied/or on a journey where he finds out about his sexuality or repressed it. I do not remember Edwin being implied queer in your sandman comic or maybe I was just too young when I read it to be able to catch the hints. So was it always your interpretation or did other authors add onto your interpretation of the character?

Btw I really love Edwin and his journey through the comics, as a person that comes from a really homophobe and transphobe place where I had to repress and hide a lot before I came to terms with who I am, so I am really pleased about the turn which his character took either way.

I don't think the Edwin in Season of Mists was in there for long enough for us to learn much about him except how he died (being sacrificed by other boys in a pact with a demon in 1916) and to watch him nurse the dying Charles Rowland and bond with him.

Since then, from his appearance in The Children's Crusade on, we've been learning who Edwin Payne is and what makes his tick.

For me the TV series is another step on the journey.

[shit-talker]

I saw someone in a TikTok comment saying they didn't really think DBD was that great of Queer rep because none of the ships actually ended up together at the end of S1. But here's the thing, Queer rep isn't always about gay couples - it's about the characters, and yeah, the easiest way to show a Queer character is putting them in a queer relationship, but that's not what it's all about.

I found DBD particularly fascinating because the queerness of these characters wasn't the main focus - it's not a romance, it's a teen drama that mainly focuses on character development (as seen with Edwin coming yo terms with his sexuality, Crystal overcoming her experience with her abusive ex, Charles dealing with the trauma of having an abusive parent, and even Niko dealing with contacting her mother and dealing with her father's death) it's about the relationships, but not necessarily in a romantic manner.

Charles and Edwin's relationship is one of the main focuses on the show, and yeah, eventually, they'll end up together, but they first have to get over these obstacles in their own internal lives. Charles has to be able to regulate and deal with his own emotions instead of repressing them, hiding them with humour, and eventually lashing out, and Edwin has to be comfortable in himself before he can be comfortable in a relationship - and they would be true if they were a straight or a gay couple.

Queer representation doesn't need to be the main focus of everything - if this were a romance, then yeah, maybe, but it isn't. I don't think any of the relationships in the show would have changed if they weren't queer and that's what representation is about. It's about breaking down these barriers that separate a gay couple from a straight couple. It's about showing that love isn't defined by a gender or whatever.

And it needs to be realistic. For me, watching shows like Heartstopper (I haven't seen all of it, I read the webcomic like 3 years ago, tho) it felt very surface level because it was almost like every plot point revolved around the characters being queer, and while I love that and think it's great for a younger queer audience (like 13/14) I think shows should focus less on making gay characters and couple to please an audience, and focus more on creating in depth meaningful characters who just so happen to be gay.

Shows like Good Omens, I feel did a great job with dealing with a queer narrative. It's not technically about a queer relationship as the main focus, and yet the audience is still able to pick up on it and catagorise it as queer media.

Is Dead Boy Detectives perfect in this regard? Of course not, no piece of media is perfect, but I do like how they've dealt with it.

People need to realise that shows can have an underlying queer narrative without queerbaiting or specifically stating so. In DBD, characters never state their sexuality because it doesn't matter to the show - not to mention two of the main characters are from periods of time where labels weren't a huge thing, or even known about but we are still able to pick up these context clues that point towards a preference for them.

[that-ineffable-devil]

Long post incoming, but I've been on and off it for days so you're gonna see it.

On Charles and Love

I think there's a lot more to Charles' reaction to Edwin's confession than what we may first assume.

Charles loves harder than anyone, but I don't think he even knows what it means or feels like to be IN love--or to be loved back. This isn't a dig at Edwin, so don't @ me. This has to do with Charles' past.

When Edwin first confesses on the steps of Hell, Charles doesn't even hesitate with his response: "Great, love you too, can we go now?" He does love Edwin, one way or another. He hasn't needed to examine that love any further. He doesn't think Edwin could mean it that way, because Edwin probably has never given any indication of feeling that for anyone. Perhaps he didn't think Edwin capable of love in that way. Perhaps it's his own repressed sexuality. Perhaps it's the feeling that he is inherently unlovable. Perhaps it's a combination of things.

On Edwin's and Charles' Repression

Look, Edwin is clearly autistic and heavily emotionally repressed--he's British, from 1916, and male. That's the perfect storm of emotional repression. But he clearly feels and feels deeply--he just doesn't always let on about it. (Which is such a nice thing to see for autistic representation, the "unfeeling alien" trope ain't it.)

And even though they've been together for 30 years, they clearly do not talk about deep emotions much, because it makes Edwin uncomfortable and Charles probably wouldn't manage to get much out before cracking a joke instead--it's his defense mechanism.

As for his own repression, Charles grew up in the 80s as a biracial kid with an abusive father. He was also at least questionably queer while alive: he was part of an alt crowd, wore eyeliner, and wore a single dangly earring. Now that doesn't mean for certain he's queer or questioning, but it IS a pretty common code in media and storytelling. And I imagine no small part of his father's excuses for abusing Charles had to do with "beating the queer out of him." Of COURSE that led to repression--how could it not?

On Feeling Unlovable

And the feeling that he's inherently unlovable? Does he really feel that way? I think so.

He wants it. He wants to be loved so badly. And because of that, he tries so hard. He tries to stay light and happy and kind, even when he's suffering underneath--he has his own flavor of emotional repression. Because if he can't be loved, he can at least be liked.

And he doesn't just want people to like him, he needs them to like him, because he needs to know he's likable. Because there's safety in being likable. There's safety in being funny and friendly and "a good sort of chap." It's proof he's not the monster his father was--the monsters his friends were. It's his shield. The shield he uses to protect himself from the world, yes, but also to protect the world from him. Or at least, who he thinks he is, deep down.

It's also, in his mind, his only chance at being loved. His only chance at staying loved. Because love is earned. Because love is the reward for good behavior. At least, that's how it was as a kid, right? And that's all he knows. He died before he could experience any other kind of love--besides the love between himself and Edwin, which is its own complicated matter.

The other difficult aspect of growing up in a household where love and affection were weaponized and where violence is an acceptable reaction to anger, is how it radically alters your perception of love and family.

You crave the love and validation you never received, but you also fear it and don't believe it's real when it comes without strings.

You struggle to identify love in healthy relationships because if it doesn't hurt, then is it really love?

And even though you crave it more than anything, you're afraid of it. You're afraid for things to get real, because real love--or your understanding of it--is dangerous.

Because love is a weapon and you can't bear for anyone to use it against you again.

Hurt People Hurt People...Sometimes

Trauma manifests differently in each person. There are some commonalities, but it's never exactly the same. I know the saying is "hurt people hurt people" and that's not entirely wrong. But sometimes, hurt people heal people--or at least try to. Charles is in the second group.

Charles never, ever wants anyone to feel the kind of love he knew while he was alive. So he paradoxically loves openly while remaining guarded. His loyalty and devotion are unmatched. He went to Hell for Edwin. But he also never told Edwin the truth about his father until essentially forced to. Because that involves vulnerability. It involves, in his eyes, weakness. And what did vulnerability and "weakness" get him in life? Well...dead.

But he craves reciprocation. He needs to feel like he can be vulnerable, safely. I don't think that Edwin has done anything to make him feel unsafe, but being that they're both emotionally surpressed boys killed by other boys for perceived weaknesses at 16 and the lack of a ghost therapist...it's not all that surprising they haven't dealt with their issues in 30 years.

I think this is why he latches onto Crystal so quickly and easily. Firstly, she's alive: he can at least pretend to ignore his own death for a bit. Secondly, she's his age (sort of) and can see him, which is an uncommon experience at best. Thirdly, again--she's alive, so it can never last--never be real. Either she'll age beyond him, or she'll die and likely be taken to her afterlife. Which he'll happily ignore for the first two reasons.

On Types of Love

I won't get too into this, because I'm in no way an expert in the wide variety of emotions attributed to love. But I will say this: Charles died at 16.

If we set aside the possibility of him being aromantic for now (which he absolutely could be), he may never have had the chance to fall in love while he was alive. If he could even recognize it for what it was. I mean, I'm in my 30s, been married and divorced twice, and I'm still not sure I've ever been in love. At 16, you're drowning in hormones and it can be hard to decipher feelings.

On Arrested Development

If you think about it, his death and subsequent ghostly afterlife are a supernatural version of the arrested development a lot of child abuse survivors experience. But his development arrested literally--he literally CAN'T grow up. At least, not physically.

He may have had 30 years to address his issues, but why would he have thought to? He doesn't have the same responsibilities or needs as a living adult. He's constantly on the job or on the run from Death, he's living with Emotional Repression the Person (my beloved), and frankly...it hurts to examine those problems. How many adults are actively avoiding their own issues?

On the Confession

Edwin, with the most heartwrenching tone of voice since David "I would like to spend" Tennant, makes clear that he's IN love with Charles. And for a moment Charles looks like he's been walloped in the gut with an iron bar, trying to process. But then the trauma-brain kicks in.

He finds the first "logical" explanation to someone (Edwin) telling him they love him: it's a literary reference, and Edwin is...maybe not "messing" with him, but maybe being extra dramatic about this? It can't be real.

But then Edwin gets upset--he's serious about this. And Charles sort of...short-circuits. He can't process this right now, not when they're running for their afterlives. Not when the Night Mother is waiting to split them up. Not when he's barely even begun to process his trauma. So he does everything he can to make sure Edwin knows that, no matter what, he loves him. Maybe not in the same way, but with the same depth.

Because they'll have time. They'll have all the time in the world to figure out what this means. Because they certainly don't right now, and everything Edwin is saying flies directly in the face of every opinion Charles has ever held about himself.

And what the hell is he supposed to do with that?

[anxious-witch]

Some thoughts on Edwin through the lenses of flaws and sexuality, specifically connected to his meetings with the Cat King and what metaphors I think are cleverly used through the offers he makes to Edwin.

Part 2, because part 1 got too long. Also, as I was reading @manicpixiedreamedwins 's analysis on loneliness through the lenses of queerness here, I realized we might have some overlapping points. And it is an amazing analysis so you should also definitely read that.

Anyway! Onto the actual analysis.

Before we get to their meeting, let's acknowledge what happened in between their meeting in the forest and the meeting in the alley.

Cat King first, because that will be a shorter explanation. After Edwin goes back to hell, we see the Cat King holding a bracelet-the same bracelet that we established quite literally represents Edwin's repressed attraction to men. The same symbol Edwin threw in his face in their meeting in the forest. "This is all that you are", he said. And then we see as the bracelet dissolves. Why? Because Edwin was ready to accept his attraction to men! He was ready to confess to Charles even before he went to hell. Which made his shame around his desire for the Cat King dissolve(we'll get back to this later), and we see Cat King stare sadly as it dissolves.

I also think that during his scene with Esther, we get to see Cat King's true desire for the first time, which is one for companionship. Sure, he hinted at it before, on the cliff, "Because it gives me more time with you", but Edwin, and by extension, we as the audience, assumed it was a matter of sexual desire. But here, when he talks to Esther, when he reveals how much he admires Edwin's resilience and how he will wait for him, he finally stop hiding behind his flaw and reveals his desire. What flaw, you may wonder? Selfishness, we could even call it self preservation, but also yes, he is most certainly selfish. He is a cat, after all. Animal instincts makes us all selfish. And despite all his talk about desire, he much like Edwin, hides his desire behind his flaw. He plays woth Edwin, while not giving himself away, but he is enticed by Edwin because they are so alike.

And what happens once he admits his desire? He dies and gets resurrected, as a more somber, perhaps we can even say more mature version of himself. A version that later offers information about Esther to Niko and Crystal. Because for all his bravado, he is now aware that what he desires is companionship and for that, he has to risk something. (And before anyone says "he didn't risk anything, if they lost, Esther wouldn't have found out he gave her away" and. Really? A powerful witch rulling the entire town wouldn't know? Give me a break).

Now, back to Edwin. Edwin goes through a whole transformation. But I would love to firstly point out how, when Edwin was ready to confess, aka when he accepts his feelings/desires fully, he gets sent back to hell, mirroring how when the Cat King accepted his desire/feelings for companionship, he gets killed by Esther.

Why? Because when we admit what we truly want, we need to battle our demons(literally or figuratively) because we are afraid of it. And if we do so successfully we transform because of it.

As for Edwin, he quite literally goes to hell, he sees his worst fears. But what I think makes it so powerful is that he doesn't get out alone again, or even due to some divine interface (if we do not count the Night Nurse), but because Charles comes and saves him. Shows him the way that Edwin himself once created.

Whenever you see their relationship as platonic or romantic, the message is clear. Edwin couldn't didn't have to find his way out on his own. Because Charles was there to help guide him. And when we talk about lust pulling Edwin back, I have seen few people say "oh, it's because he felt lust now, but his love for Charles is pure and that's what gets him out" and I have to politely disagree? Because let's remember, hell in the Sandman universe works is through shame. Through people believe they deserve to be punished for what they did, regardless if they actually deserve it or not. So as such, I think Edwin gets pulled back by his old beliefs for a moment, telling his that his desire, his lust is a sin worth of punishment.

And then Charles, one of the objects of his desires, sees him and pulls him out of it. And due to all the development and acceptance Edwin went through before that point, he goes with him. Because there is nothing shameful about wanting someone, be is romantically or sexually.

Which is why Edwin's confession after that is so impactful! He accepted, and then he uttered it out loud. Because he couldn't be transformed without admitting it! And what does Charles do? He accepts him. Which is another reason why I'm glad he didn't immediately return his feelings. What Edwin really needed in that moment was to be accepted for all his flaws and desires and taken out of the environment that created shame around it. And that's exactly what Charles did.

So. With all that said, let's go back on track aka the alley meeting between Edwin and the Cat King. The Cat King(or one of his cats?) knocks on a window to get Edwin's attention. What a change from him getting scratched in episode 4! Because their connection is gentler now, and there is a degree of respect. Asking for attention instead of demanding it.

And Edwin comes willingly. There is no bracelet forcing him and when the Cat King appears to give his condolences for Niko's death, it truly feels like meeting of equals. What is interesting is that Cat King looks sort of demure here. He attempts to reels Edwin in with his desire twice. I believe he knows something shifted because what is the first thing he offers? A hug. Now, it seems like he expect Edwin's rejection, so it's mostly a moot attempt. But then Edwin says: "I think I understand you better now." And the switch immediately flips into Cat King's flirty persona. Sure, the newfound gentleness is still there, but the way he leans closer and says "Oh, tell me all about me." Certainly plays into Edwin's reaction. He needs Edwin to react to have power.

But then Edwin calls him out on his desire. "You are lonely," he says, and then proceeds to point out how the Cat King hides that loneliness with his toys, amusements and flaws. Because what does a selfish person do? Picks up a toy while it amuses them and then discards them, disregarding the feelings of others. Again, drawing parallel to Edwin's own flaw. But then Edwin goes further and says "we are both lonely" acknowledging those similarities. And the Cat King? I don't know how else to describe his look but adoration. He feels seen, in god knows how long. And Edwin does the same thing Charles did for him. He accepts him and forgives him. You matter, no matter your flaws. You can stop the game now, because I accept you and I accept myself.

The Cat King is there to be a mirror. To show Edwin's desires and flaws. To make him face it. But when Edwin does, the mirror disappears. The Cat King is left as he truly is, with nothing to hide behind, no offers left to make. Especially when Edwin tells him "there are 147 cats in Port Towsend". Proving he overcame his disregard for others. And when the Cat King corrects him, Edwin in turn says "you forgot to count yourself".

You forgot to take into consideration yourself. Your own desires. Edwin won. Not only their little game, but he is the one holding power now. Which is why I found it odd that some people still found Cat King a villian after that. He cannot be one. He has no offers that can sway Edwin. If he appears again, the only thing he can offer Edwin is the truth and companionship, in whatever form that may be. Personally, I'd love to see them as friends at least. I think they have such understanding of each other now, it would be interesting to watch.

Anyway! Thank you for coming to my ted talk, I think that's all. If you have anything to add, comment, etc please feel free to!

[edwinspaynes]

Very curious what other people think of this because I've seen several different takes.

In my interpretation of DBDA, I think Edwin knew he was gay already before the beginning of the series. As in, I think he knew it when he was still alive. I don't think he was out, obviously, and I think the kids at school killed him for being... campy, for the lack of a better word. Visibly queer? But my point stands.

However, I think he was extremely repressed because he was ashamed of this fact (and died as a result of it), so he totally avoided thinking about his sexuality (that he was already aware of) until the Cat King and Monty unlocked a reason for him to actually think about it and mull it over. And I think Niko helped him to combat internalized homophobia. I do not think they were his gay awakening. I think they were a step toward acceptance of something he knew about himself.

A lot of people seem to assess things differently, saying that he never considered whether he might be gay or not until meeting the Cat King. This feels unrealistic to me - Edwin's very analytical and likes to assess facts and evidence, and his murderers were chanting a homophobic slur while murdering him. It would be something he'd have thought about, in my opinion. I don't think that it's an invalid reading, and rewatching episode 2 last night, I understand why some people think this. I just think he was repressed and avoiding it. But yeah.

I also think that Charles probably knew the ins and outs of Edwin's death, solely based on how close they are and how long they have known each other. It would have at some point come up. I definitely think Edwin's avoidance means that he would never have even conceptualized coming out to Charles until 1x6. But I think Charles in his heart of hearts a) thought Edwin might be gay, and b) gave 0 fucks and didn't think about it much.

Hence this poll:

[deadboydetectives-confessions]

My personal gripe in payneland fic is people writing Charles as only being attracted to Edwin and no other man ever, the whole “he was never into men but he was in love with Edwin” thing. It makes me so sad lmao, like if Edwin was a woman he’d be able to love him more, or like Charles loves him in spite of his gender.

I know for some people it’s probably very romantic—the idea that you could love someone even if they aren’t the gender you’re attracted to, but as a bi person in a queer relationship it makes me sad. I love my partner because of who they are, not in spite of it. I also think it’s a lot more common for people to be romantically and sexually repressed due to the culture they’re raised in than it is for them to genuinely only be attracted to one singular person of the same gender. And Charles is like, the aids crisis poster boy. That in and of itself opens him up for so much interesting interpretation.

I’m also a slut for repression and pining and slow burn and I guess I feel like a lot of fics totally bypass some of my favorite tropes just to get to them being together. No hate to anyone who writes fic like that I just would love to see some more of Charles coming to terms with his sexuality.

Also also, I think there’s so much room to expand on their relationship prior to the start of the show. Even room to explore Charles’ character before he died. I really love the idea that Charles may have initially felt something (though he didn’t fully comprehend what it was) toward Edwin but realized very quickly that Edwin was guarded and shied away from conversations about romance and intimacy, so he dropped it—no need to address his emotions if there’s no chance in hell there would ever be any reason to express them. But then there’s Portownsend, and something tightens in Charles’ chest every time he thinks about the Cat King, and at first Charles thinks it’s just that he doesn’t like the smarmy prick, but it happens again with Monty, who’s a little rude to him but doesn’t seem DANGEROUS. And then there’s the staircase, and maybe Charles isn’t in capitol L love with Edwin, but he’s in SOMETHING with him, and maybe he does need to think a little bit more about that time he kissed a boy playing spin the bottle at a party and it made his stomach flip. Maybe he needs to consider why he liked the movie Labyrinth so much, even though he as a little too old for it when it came out. Maybe he needs to confront the fact that he’s always reaching for Edwin, that he wants to hug him or hold his hands or slide an arm across his shoulders.

I’m not sure how to end this I just think it would be cool to see more of that. Shout-out bisexual people.

.

[wittywallflower]

DBDA post-s1 Catwin fic. rated G 2k words

Edwin went back to Port Townsend several months after their extended stay. He would never admit to expecting a warmer welcome from the shapeshifter who had professed to be so fond of him. But despite the time apart Edwin found he could still read beneath the facade of the apparently-disinterested man who didn’t stand to greet him and offered only desultory small talk.

He might cultivate an aura of boredom and indifference but of course the Cat King was feeling wary and a bit petulant, convinced he’d been forgotten about. Dubious of Edwin’s long absence and his motives for returning.

🔎

Edwin had simply needed to take the time to cope with everything that had happened. 

Time to mourn for Niko, the first friend he’d made in anything approaching a normal way. His friendship with Charles was something unshakeable, but the circumstances of their first meeting had been rather extraordinary. Edwin and Crystal had formed a mutual affection only begrudgingly, after going through a lot together. But Niko… befriending her had come so naturally. Edwin’s afterlife was so supernatural that the easy simplicity of it all had made Niko even more special. Edwin missed her terribly.

Time was also needed to recover from round 2 of Hell, or more accurately to firmly repress as much of that experience as he could. He had talked extensively of Hell to Charles early in their acquaintance; nothing needed to be rehashed, in Edwin’s opinion. It had been more of the same and he much preferred other uses of his time.

Like the time spent letting his unrequited heart be soothed by Charles’ platonic devotion. To be sure that his feelings for his best friend wouldn’t complicate things. He hadn’t worried too much about their work, knowing Charles was similarly dedicated to their cause. He was nervous about the leisure time spent alone together, always so comfortable and often fun in ways some people thought Edwin incapable of. What would Edwin even do without Charles to help fill all the hours a ghost didn't spend on sleeping or eating or grooming?

Nothing had changed though. Their friendship stayed just the same. Edwin had frankly expected it to hurt a lot more. It wasn’t painless, but as he continued to talk and laugh and solve cases with his dearest friend, Edwin realized that he didn’t need to pine for the romantic love Charles didn’t return. What Charles could give him was more than enough. He knew he had Charles' love and respect and admiration; no one could possibly care for Edwin more than the boy who went to Hell to bring him back.  Charles gave him protection, help, an ear when he needed it, and gave him equal time and attention as he gave Crystal. 

Just because Edwin hadn’t seen the appeal in kisses until recently, didn’t mean that his relationship with Charles was somehow lesser for the lack of them. 

And on the subject of kissing, it had come time for Edwin to actually come to terms with the things he had recently realized about himself. This meant research. The local library had a very helpful display front and center, actually. Edwin couldn’t have known beforehand, but it was quite auspicious that he had begun his research in June. He had learned a lot. 

In the safe space of the Cat King’s private lair, with the man he didn’t have to hide with, who liked his secret parts, Edwin had the courage to say as much - though rather more succinct and impersonal words.

“Is that why you’re here then?" the Cat King inquired. "Curiosity? Need a queer mentor for the questions the books can't answer?”

“I would think you of all people would appreciate a bit of curiosity.”

For the first time since Edwin had arrived, the Cat King’s smile looked the way he remembered it.

“Touché.”

Edwin couldn’t help a small smile in return, sensing how fun it could be to banter with the man now that there were no high stakes involved.

“So, what then," the Cat King asked further, "looking for tips on how to make that second kiss a winner? I could probably offer some… personal instruction in that.”

The words were suggestive, and a wink accompanied them, but it rang a bit hollow. Edwin didn’t fail to notice that before he rolled his eyes in exasperation.

“Why do people keep offering me kissing lessons?” he huffed.

That got the Cat King’s attention, and he sat up sharply, abandoning his indolent pose on the shabby pallet throne.

“Who?” he asked, barely managed to make it a question rather than a demand. 

Edwin had to swallow some emotion before he could speak. 

“Niko was the only person I had ever talked to about… kissing. She said she would be a ‘guinea pig’ if it would help me be less anxious about it. She thought I should save it for someone i really liked, but she still made the offer anyway.” 

Such a romantic soul, but willing to do anything to help her friends. 

Edwin sighed and shook off the creeping sadness. 

“Anyway, somehow Crystal got wind of the conversation and felt a need to point out that Niko really didn’t have the experience to be very helpful. Then Crystal offered to teach me herself, if I found a way to suggest to Charles that he adopt some of her preferred techniques.”

The Cat King stared unblinking for a long moment, then shook his head slightly is dismay.

“Hon, this love triangle you’ve got going on is a little perverse. Tell me you turned Crystal down.” 

Obviously there was no way the prim prissy ghost accepted either offer. The idea was ridiculous. But it would still be nice to hear it said out loud. 

The Cat King would accept any of Edwin’s kisses, but it did sting how narrowly he had missing having Edwin’s first. He would have been properly appreciative of it; he would have done it right, not as a surprise in some dark, shitty forest. 

Second kiss wasn’t bad though. Second was still his goal. 

Edwin answered with a look of exasperation. “Obviously I did not accept. Even if I were so inclined, I can’t see how the inevitable awkwardness would be worth it.”

“If you were 'so inclined', the fun would be worth it. The want, and pleasure.”

The Cat King’s smile was smoldering as he called back to their first conversation. Edwin’s non-corporeal body didn’t blush, but he suddenly had a rather strong memory of that it felt like to have his cheeks heat.

“Yes, well,” Edwin straightened his collar, and his posture, “I don’t have any experience with that sort of…fun. I’ll have to take your word for it.”

“I could show you.”

Edwin looked at him closely, and took a step nearer. The Cat King’s head tilted back to look up at the tall ghost as he approached where the shorter man sat.

“That’s why I am here,” Edwin said without fanfare.

The Cat King almost choked on air, eyes wide, mouth dropping open. 

Edwin leaned in to press a finger to the underside of the shapeshifter's chin, lifting until his mouth closed again.

“I know you could show me things I can’t even imagine,” Edwin almost stuttered when the cat king’s pupils blew wide and the magical being inhaled deeply. Suddenly he looked every inch like a predator ready to pounce. 

Edwin managed to continue, “and for some reason you��re perhaps the only person I could see myself trusting enough to be comfortable with.”

Too surprised by Edwin’s forthrightness to have a response to that, the Cat King could only stare up at him.

Edwin smiled almost sadly and dropped his hand from the other’s chin. 

“But that would have undoubtedly complicated things I was already struggling to figure out. Since Hell , the first time, I was always running and hiding from Death, and in a way also from myself. I didn’t let myself want anything, except to stay out of Hell. Now that it’s not a threat, things have changed. I had to figure out something to aspire to, a goal, something I want rather than just want to avoid.” 

“And what do you want?” The Cat King’s voice was underlain with a purr that had Edwin remembering goosebumps on his skin.

“To continue my work,” he answered plainly.

The shapeshifter rolled his eyes. He was not the least bit surprised and wasn’t that kinda the worst part of it?

“Even now that you don't need the good deeds as leverage to avoid Hell?” he asked anyway, even though he really could have expected no less from the ghost.

The reminder of what he had admitted under the influence of the Cat King’s truth spell was unpleasant to Edwin.

“As I said, I was ashamed of that motive. But that was never my only reason for being a detective. And now without the guilt hanging over me, I can enjoy myself more. I won't have to worry about watching our backs from Death, I can focus on the cases and be better at my work.”

The Cat King nodded, knowing that was true. Edwin did love being a detective, using that big beautiful brain of his to solve puzzles and save the day. It was his calling and it would always be his main priority.

“Sounds like you’ve got it worked out then. Got your dream job, got your weird little situationship with your best buddy. What more could a dead boy want?” he asked, a pleasant but oddly empty smile on his face.

“I want to spend time with you,” Edwin answered with hesitation.

The Cat King’s face fell in surprise at the bald admission.

“I want to talk with you,” Edwin went on. “Speak as equals without a magic bracelet or an urgent case hanging over us.” 

“I’ve never really had your full attention, have I?” the Cat King realized with a pout. “Always such a busy little detective.”

Edwin’s lip quirked upward despite himself. 

“I do take my work very seriously. Too seriously, according to some. But despite appearances, I don’t work all the time. And now it should… feel easier to take time off”

Now he wouldn’t feel so guilty if he wasn’t helping someone every single day.

The implication that Edwin wanted to spend his time off with the Cat King was just delightful. The older man tried but it was clear from the way he had to hide a smile as he playfully feigned a protest.

“Kings are busy too, you know.”

Edwin nodded gravely, as if his eyes weren’t sparkling with mirth just as much as the king’s were. 

“I’m certain we can manage to coordinate our schedules.” 

“To schedule time for a chat?” 

Only a chat? was the unspoken question.

Edwin raised an eyebrow, somehow both humorous and haughty.

“I am amenable to some recreational activities. Or a meal, if you don’t mind being the only one eating.”

“Careful there, ghostie. It's starting to sound like you’re asking me on a date.”

The Cat King could no longer restrain a wide grin. He knew he probably looked like a lovesick idiot. Which was… not inaccurate.

Edwin let himself smile back fully, without restraint. He known all along that the Cat King was intrigued by him, had been attracted to him since that first moment in Port Townsend. But now it was quite clear that it was more than simply a cat’s curiosity, or a hedonist’s lust. Edwin was a bit surprised how the idea of a chaste date had the other man looking like the cat that got the cream.

“I am doing just that,” Edwin confirmed. Then pretended at ruefulness. “And I'm sure you are insufferably pleased about the fact.”

The Cat King chuckled and reached out to take Edwin’s hand.

“Oh you handsome thing, you have no idea.” 

[queerly-done]

So my opinions on all the Dead Boy Detective/DBDA Characters

All of these are opinions as someone who has watched the show a few times now and also the Doom Patrol episode and I’ll give my opinions on the Doom Patrol versions at the end.

Spoilers for Dead Boy Detectives Show. And Doom Patrol season 3 ep. 3 and that episode alone

Charles Rowland

- Charles is such a sweetheart I love him. He’s always looking out for his friends and literally went to hell for Edwin, and kicked the Night Nurse for him. I just love him so much.

- I felt so bad for him in episode one when he says his dad, “wasn’t the nicest guy,” and in episode three when we see him break being forced to see a father k!ll his family over. I was actually crying with him saying he doesn’t “want to be a bad guy”! It broke me so badly, the abuse he went through and the fear he’ll become like his abusers is a very real thing and to see a character go through that makes the story feel more real, and makes me more sad. He could use some therapy.

- Him being the “brawn” of the team is pretty funny to me but thats most because if you watch the cast interactions you’ll see what I mean.

- All in all, I love him. He is loving, protective, loyal and has golden retriever with attachment issues energy mixed with scary dog privilege but the dog isn’t scary unless provoked.

Edwin Paine/Payne

- Adorable, get him some therapy please! He needs it! Man was so repressed for the first part of this show I thought I’d die before he confessed. But I don’t blame him honestly, his death was traumatic and being called a “Mary Ann” whilst being sacrificed likely would put a bad taste in your mouth about the idea of you being queer in any way shape or form. I am so proud of him good job!

- Honestly he just makes me so happy, and I love how he interacts with everyone and grows!

Crystal Palace

- I love her she is so bad ass and I hope wish the best for her

- She needs better taste in men, my suggestion date women

- I want to see a little more of her Nepo baby side of her past cause clearly that was a thing

Niko Sasaki

- Sweetie! I miss her! She was the only other person other than Charles to get Edwin out of his shell and it hurts me so much to see her be gone. Her death will forever haunt me.

Cat King

- I love him so much, he is my favourite kind of not evil but not good guy the kind that plays a game with people by flirting! Ahhh I love him! I don’t love that he falls for Edwin(I’ll make a separate post on this issue)

- Anywho I still love him he gives off chaotic gender neutral vibes and the song Sex With a Ghost was made for him, I just love him!

Monty the Crow

- Monty I love you but don’t kiss people without consent!

- Honestly he was very important, and sweet he didn’t deserve all the pain he’s been through, may better things come his way.

Jenny the Butcher

- Badass. I love everything about her. Her style, the way she gives advice, yes I just love her so much. I want to see more of her.

- Her episode made me so sad for her ;-;

Esther Finch

- Honestly I love her as a villain she was so evil, and a genuine threat. She is also so hot and scary I just love her.

David the Demon

- A creep I didn’t like him, I don’t know what else you want?

Doom Patrol versions!

Charles Rowland

- He was so funny in this, I loved him. I love how the show conveyed a mutual interest from him to Edwin they are both just too dense to say anything about it. I also love that it seems the only thing he knows about America is that they like baseball.

- They did have to go off and hurt me with the fear of water scene, but he was so sweet protecting Edwin from the Night Nurse(who in this is just 10 times scarier)

Edwin Paine

- Him not getting anything about modern times and brushing off his feelings for Edwin was so well done! I love how he tells Larry he “isn’t like him” saying he isn’t queer and that if he were that would be bad, he says this all in a very rude and brash tone and then proceeds to comfort Charles in the nicest to he is capable of.

- Beautiful 10/10

Crystal Palace

- Boss ass Bitch, girl boss. 8/10 I love her but no real opinions yet that is I may go back one day and edit this for her

I hope you liked this dumb post :3

[amysgiantbees]

Dead Boy Detectives Cat King Spoilers

I ADORE the Cat King and I'm really fascinated by him and I just love how detailed everything about him is.

A few thoughts on him...

I love that he's living at Empire fish company to harken to his royal status.

I adore the head-cannon that he's Desire's child. With his golden eyes that remain no matter his form. Desire's actor even tweeted about it!

He asked which boy put the spell on his cat. Also, the cat's comment in the murder house ep that "the Cat king won't like this" and the implied rest of that sentence I feel is "when he finds out, when we report back." But at the end of the Dragons ep we can see the cat's eyes glow, implying he's magically looking through them. I know I'm assuming a lot but he seems to let the cats do their thing most of the time and report to him if they feel like it. It might even be a two way thing where they allow him to look through their eyes, he can't force it. I just think it's interesting what powers he has. Also it's interesting how his relationship with the cats work. Knowing cats, they have to want to report back. They don't just do it out of obligation. So, I'd like to think he's a pretty decent ruler. Or even my head-cannon that he doesn't really rule them more protects and acts as their go between, between themselves and other creatures.

His powers so far: Personal resurrection. Teleportation (but maybe just to pocket dimensions). Shapeshifting. Binding spells or just magic in general much like Edwin can practice magic from books. All very indirect kinds of magic which really suit his trickster spirit vibes.

I love that his loneliness is tied in to almost every interaction he has with Edwin. From insisting that he likes to keep things consensual then putting a spell that forces them to be closer. To watching out for/stalking Edwin with his cats. To forcing him to tell the truth but only a little bit in a kind of desperate attempt to get Edwin to see he cares about him and embraces him for who he is. Edwin calling him lonely really doesn't come from nowhere to humanize him which I love. It's great that even the minor character's motivations are well thought through in the show.

I feel like he took to Edwin so quick possibly just out of pure desire. But also people love to say animals are great judges of character, especially cats, they're discerning. So I love the idea that even if Thomas was repressing the fact that he is lonely a part of him knew it and recognized that loneliness in Edwin. As well as what his actor's mentioned in interviews that Thomas is so free and has so few inhibitions and thus just enjoys messing with stuffy old Edwin so much.

Me enjoying Thomas' moral greyness does not mean I'm condoning his behaivour. But it certainly doesn't bother me for multiple reasons. Firstly, his actor is SO charismatic. It really does make a difference that he's just SO fun to watch. Also, not that I've never been harassed by a queer guy before, but him being not straight does help beat the creep vibes in my mind. Also, the way that he will push a boundary but say or do something that softens what he's done helps. Like ranting and raving in the woods that Edwin will regret this but instead continuing to try to protect him from Esther. I think he clearly cares enough about Edwin that if Edwin was REALLY that uninterested in him and uncomfortable he would of just have given him a different punishment. Also, it's a fair punishment. He binds Edwin just like Edwin bound that cat. He's an ambiguous trickster fantasy creature, I'm willing to let a lot slide due to the fact that he clearly has an important role in the story and people's lives as a disrupting and mischievous influence.

I also am not particularly bothered by any potential creepiness from the Cat King as the way in interviews everyone talks about him is that he had a very specific role to play. He was made to be Edwin's sexual awakening. Yes he could have just been a guy that like always seems to be obliviously shirtless going on runs or something like that and it would have been less problematic. But, for one, I'm sure Edwin's seen that before and just looks away when it happens. Two, Edwin is SO repressed I think it makes a lot of narrative sense that he needs someone SO pushy and desperate in return to wake him up. And also he then contrasts against the purity and sweetness of Edwin's love for Charles. I don't see this as condoning this behaivour because real people aren't deeply repressed Edwardian ghosts that couldn't access therapy even if they wanted to on account of being dead.

Furthermore, as I'm sure many people have seen in recent popular discourses media does not need to be morally pure. I don't think that should be a get out of jail free card though. Or that creatives should be allowed to make whatever offensive shit they want and then say but "it's art" or "it's satire". Context matters. It's important how you frame something. And sure the Cat King is not punished for his bad behaivour but he is framed in such a way that I feel like he is not supported for it either. He doesn't get "rewarded" with Edwin in the end. He's not even guaranteed to have his company in even a platonic way since they're heading back to London and he, presumably, has to stay in his kingdom (he calls himself A cat king so I'm assuming there's others elsewhere so he probably can't go to London and intrude on another's territory. Or maybe he's A cat king in that there's just one at a time but there's a history of them).

Also, I've seen some people be uncomfortable at the age gap between Edwin and the Cat King, but to quote one of my favourite YouTubers Kennie J.D. "They're brooding hot 25 year old teenagers". They're both actors in their 20's. They could both theoretically be playing immortals frozen in their teens. I get that Thomas looks older but none of them look like teens. Edwin's actor has a 5 o'clock shadow. The most info we get about Thomas' age that he's meant to be appearing as is that he says "he's not a daddy type" according to him. Admittedly his actor says that when he was imagining a backstory for him part it was that he thought he and Esther were ex's. So that does lend to the idea of him being frozen as an adult. So I'd definitely say it's a grey area. But also people arguing it's not weird because they're all kind of ageless anyway, I do disagree with. As a TikToker, Babbity Kate, I like pointed out just because Edward is over 100 years old doesn't mean Bella dating him isn't less weird than her dating Carlisle. There's a difference, it matter's a person's maturity.

I just hope we get a Season 2 and the Cat King sticks around for it. Hope Edwin misses him XD

Other people with great takes on him: https://www.tumblr.com/weareinastormoffuck/749853517024559104?source=share

[acheel-and-cat]

hi there I’m here to yell about dead boy detectives

so. I’m just losing my mind about edwin being kind to charles as he was dying, reading him that story, telling him about his life, etc. he makes it seem like he’s an asshole but he really isn’t, at his core. he’s so scared of having to go back to hell, so he’s desperate for the ability to control his circumstances, and when he can’t, he gets stressed and frustrated. understandable. but he’s so sweet with charles and niko and even, eventually, SIMON. IN HELL.

I’m still not over “if you punish yourself, everywhere becomes hell.” canonically referring to internalized homophobia. like augh. and then he confesses his love to charles WHILE THEYRE STILL IN HELL,, because he didn’t know if he’d get another chance once they made it out,,,

I’m obsessed with this repressed edwardian twink in case it wasn’t obvious

OMG yes! Edwin is such a great character to analyze, he’s so multi-faceted! I think one of the reasons he stayed with Charles as he was dying is because he didn’t have anyone when he died and he was so scared and alone, he didn’t want Charles to go through that. Honestly Edwin has just seen the Horrors ™. He was dragged to Hell on a technicality, he saw the worst of the worst people and then just had to cope. I’d say that’s where his meanness comes from, the underlying fear of being hurt again as well as the fact he got out of Hell and just had to adjust. We really need more ghost therapists.

When he goes back to Hell, he realizes that Simon wasn’t this horrible asshole hellbent on hurting Edwin, he’s just a boy. Sure a boy so scared of his feelings he accidentally killed his crush, but still just a boy with a crush who doesn’t know how to handle his feelings. And holy crap Edwin relates to not understanding his feelings, and he really wants to show Simon that the feelings are ok. It’s alright now. They are accepted at this point in time. Yes, when they were alive it was considered bad, but now it’s ok, and he wants to show Simon so badly that it is ok to have those feelings.

Then, of course, Charles comes to save Edwin and as they leave, they have a moment to catch their breath. Edwin realized this now or never moment, and has got to tell Charles. Before they return back to normalcy, Edwin has to tell him. And god, Charles answer is so beautiful. It’s definitely not a no, it’s more of a “I hadn’t thought of it.” He tells Edwin that he is the most important being to him, but he hasn’t classified what kind of love it is. Sort of like, “Yes I love you too, but I’m not quite sure if it’s platonic, romantic, or a mix.” But he adds in the “and we’ve got literally forever to figure out what the rest means.” That part. He’s willing to figure it out. He is going to devote time to find out what kind of love it is. Honestly, I do not care whether or not Charles and Edwin stay friends, go with a queer platonic label, or start dating, as long as they keep their friendship I’m good.

Thanks for giving me stuff to think about, the hyperfixation is really hyperfixating. I am also obsessed with this repressed Edwardian twink.

[avidbeader]

I bought and read the first of the "Dead Boy Detectives" comics collections yesterday, because I was curious about what else they'd done to adapt the series for television besides the necessary aging up of the characters. (Kind of hard to portray the idea of ageless ghosts in a live-action program when your main characters are twelve.)

Doing a keep-reading for both spoilers and because I have no idea how long this might get.

One of the first things I noticed with reading "Free Country" was how child-like Edwin and Charles' thought processes were: the constant references to the detective stories they'd read, being a bit too trusting of others at first. The first DBD trade left off a lot of detective references other than Charles imitating 1920s-30s noir stories in his notes. It's amusing to see them snipe at each other in those notes, especially over the next thing that I saw. Comics Charles in the first stories is clearly a boy who was on the brink of discovering teen hormones and seems very stuck there. He is all about the girls and Edwin is very impatient with it. I won't know until I read more if the comics if they move into queer territory (or even let the boys grow mentally as their experience widens), but right now Edwin strikes me less as being gay and from a repressed upbringing and more as simply a boy who has not yet gotten past the stage of seeing romance in general as something grownups do. With the older characters, there is absolutely nothing holding the TV team back from exploring queer relationships and I do think they have done an excellent job so far. Charles at this point seems to be het but absolutely okay with LGBTQ+ people and issues - until it was mentioned that he was defending a Pakistani boy from the bullies in his era, my first assumption was that the other boy might be attacked on the basis of being perceived as queer. I so very much want a second season because it would be all too easy to tip Charles' general protectiveness of Edwin and flashes of jealousy into realizing that maybe his own feelings are a little more than platonic.

Edwin's development is just as excellent. He spends so much time and effort in repressing his feelings, because that was the era he grew up in and decades in Hell didn't give him much time for introspection. He keeps his compliments to Charles about their work but will reassure Charles in a heartbeat that he won't let Death separate them if she catches them. He spends the first part of the season being confronted with the possibility of romantic/sexual feelings coming from Monty or the Cat King and then the Cat King makes the subtext text by flinging the illusion of Charles in Edwin's face. And in what I think is one of the smartest moves in the writing, Edwin tries to talk about what he's feeling with Monty and Monty makes his move. Edwin's response is gentle but determined as he says that these new and terrifying feelings are not for Monty, and while Monty is clearly hurt, they get past it enough to keep talking. I think that experience is part of what makes Edwin brave enough to admit his feelings to Charles (yes, on top of the possibility that things are going to end up in the worst possible way as the demon is chasing them). And because Charles is a good and kind and generous soul who really does put Edwin at the top of people he loves and wants to protect, he says exactly the right things to make sure Edwin knows that he's not mad or put off by the confession.

The other major factor in the comics so far is Crystal. I love the changes to her character as, like our boys, she's older. She's had much more time in the toxic environment her parents created (judging from the brief glimpses we get in the show) to absorb their behaviors. Assuming that the memories she got from David are true (as Edwin said, demons lie and David had plenty of time to make fake memories if that's a thing he can do), then being hit with a giant reset button and dropped in the laps of two good-hearted lads was the absolute best thing that could have happened to her. I'm glad that David is only temporarily interred, as Crystal is getting close to being dangerously overpowered at a storytelling level by the end of the first season. It'll be fascinating to watch the possibilities if we get a second season: the price for getting David out of her life for good being giving up some of this extra power? Learning that she can only achieve that level when her friends are in mortal danger? Giving up that power in exchange for Niko's return? She's not in the comics yet (if she ever appears in them at all), but I fully expect we'll get Niko back in some capacity in a second season. Which means everyone who hasn't watched DBD but read all of this blather anyway....go. Watch. Add to the numbers so Netflix will renew.

[edwinspaynes]

Very intersting that Supernatural had a history of queerbaiting. That’s bad to hear.

Does Netflix’s Dead Boy Detectives have Queer Romance? How does it tackle it between the leads?

Also has it been renewed for S2 yet!!

Yeah, lol. I'm surprised you didn't know that! "Supernatural" and "queerbaiting" are pretty much interchangeable terms. I feel like almost everyone thinks of Dean and Castiel as the prime example of queerbaiting.

Yes! Dead Boy Detectives features queerness prominently. It's a very queer show! The main character Edwin is a gay man from the early 1900s. He was obviously always gay, but being gay wasn't an option then, so he's horribly repressed. He was killed in a homophobic hate crime and sent to Hell for 73 years before being plopped in a modern context where it's okay to be gay, so a huge plot point is him coming to terms with it being okay to have relationships with men and navigating that.

There's also a pansexual Cat King (exactly what it sounds like), a gay crow who becomes a boy (I am serious), and a cool lesbian butcher who serves as an older sister for the group. Queerness is so normalized in the show.

It's fairly clear that the main love story is between Edwin and Charles (ship name Payneland), who have essentially been in a queerplatonic relationship for 35 years. That story's not done - it's just starting - but I will be surprised if they do not turn romantic. Serves me great, I'm not this invested in any ship besides Thomastair and Herondaisy. I love Payneland, they've skyrocketed to the same ship tier level as those guys.

Sadly, no renewal news yet! BUT it sounds very likely, I'd be surprised if it were canceled.