#study:penelope

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thoughts on posie? if penelope came back, could you see them getting back together near the end and it making sense for both of their arcs? (this is assuming the writers stuck to hosie= sisters lol)

I'm gonna answer this, now that I'm past the episode where Penelope is gone (on my rewatch).

There was never any angle where hosie were sisters at all, since season 1's arc between Hope, Josie and Lizzie all revolves completely around Josie's crush on Hope. But I'm gonna just assume you meant if we lived in an alternate universe where the show was written without any romantic feelings and somehow the twins and Hope actually did get along and act like sisters.

Although imo, even if Josie didn't have feelings for Hope and Hope didn't also crush on her, it still wouldn't have ever been like sisters... Hope's relationship with Ric is very odd and never fully feels parental to me, even though she does say he's the closest thing she has to a father in season 2. It almost feels like they're co-workers or like he's grooming her (he is, unfortunately. I don't even mean sexually/romantically, I just mean that there's an episode in season 4 that reveals in a flashback that Ric is only being nice to Hope because he's afraid of her and wants to make sure she protects his daughters. Which is probably also why he kept trying to encourage them to get along). Obviously Hope should not be operating like Ric's co-worker because she's a teenager, but y'know... that's part of why the relationship is so fucked up to me.

Anyway, this is a tangent and several rabbit holes and not what you asked.

I don't particularly ship posie myself just because... I dunno, I just don't ship it, lol. I don't even have any good reasons for that, it's just not my cup of tea. I don't usually like the exes trope with my ships, but on top of that I hate how it feels like Josie doesn't really like Penelope or admire her in any kind of way that shows she has respect for her.

Penelope very clearly has deep feelings for Josie and you can see it just on her face several times through their scenes. She's glowing when she sees Josie smiling when they descend the stairs for Miss Mystic Falls because she thinks for one moment that Josie is going to listen to her and just do what she wants to do. The chemistry on Penelope's side, even just during the dance rehearsal, makes it so obvious how much warmth Pen has for Josie.

I also think there's like a hint of depth to Penelope that people often overlook because they just say she was mean to Lizzie. Which, she was, lol, but people forget (and honestly I forgot it too, because the fandom kind of gaslit me by just saying Lizzie was the one being treated poorly all season 1 and some people even said Pen was ableist. anyway) Lizzie was also really cruel to people. I'm always gonna point to the talent show episode for this, because we see examples of Lizzie calling the other witches fat, berating/borderline yelling at Josie for voicing her thoughts on the talent they're performing and wanting to do something else, etc. I mean, that was an example of what happens when Josie says blatantly what she wants to Lizzie. We even see Penelope still suited up in the uniform Lizzie wants her in, despite her not liking Lizzie. Lizzie is still kind of queen bee, even if the other witches don't like her, presumably because her parents run the school. And then in the AU episode, the jinni points this out too by saying that in public school, the students aren't as careful with Lizzie and aren't afraid to tread on her feelings. That, to me, also further strengthens the narrative that the students at the boarding school did hold back to some extent.

The other seasons, from what I remember (I'm only on season 1 of my rewatch) do show the students being mean to Lizzie in retaliation, but I don't think it's to the extent of how Lizzie was treated at Mystic Falls High in the AU. Though, they do laugh at her funeral, which is??? Wild. And there is another conversation to be had about how the showrunners treated Lizzie on a zoomed out scale because, like... I do think it's weird they chose to make her have bipolar disorder and then they picked the storyline where she's the one who's mean and self-centered. That by itself is a bit weird, just because they intermix the two topics completely irresponsibly sometimes. That issue spreads out into the fandom and how people talk about pretty much everything involving Lizzie and there's so much that's just problematic. I think that's also why people think Penelope's line "you're a black hole of time, love, etc" is ableist. But I tend to think it was more just that like... the ableism of Julie was seeping in and interweaving itself with an attempt at showing that Lizzie actually is ALSO just mean to people and inconsiderate, which is not because she has bipolar disorder. The two are separate and because of incompetence from Julie, the two mix themselves and it turns into a mess of bad representation. Does that make sense 😭 I also think that's why she thought certain things would be okay to go unaddressed. So. Ultimately, I think Lizzie was not written cohesively when it came to her mental illness, some of the ableism of the showrunners came through and then sometimes the other unrelated parts of Lizzie's character that just suck (her being kind of mean) get completely erased by the fandom because of their frustration with the other things. And I think in the new narrative by the fandom, Penelope tends to suffer a large brunt of alllll of that. So people just blanket say she was ableist and that's it, when I think there's just way more going on for that conversation.

Anyway, another tangent. What I mean to say is I think some of Pen's meanness is because she doesn't like that Lizzie herself is mean to the other witches, including Josie. It would help if we saw more of it on screen, but the bones/implication of that are still present if you watch the show. Penelope also has a friendly rapport with other characters, so she's not just mean all the time. She wants to help MG and genuinely smiles when she sees him dancing with Lizzie, she helps Raf with a cloaking spell and disguises it as making fun of Lizzie but I honestly think she just likes the boys, she basically gives Landon therapy and tells him the secret about his mom... etc. I think Penelope is pretty well liked at the school, so I think Lizzie broadly fits the mean girl trope more than Pen. It's just that Pen was traumatized when she learned about the Merge and the girl she loved maybe being absorbed, so she started lashing out at Lizzie because she was upset. Not a great way to go about it, which is why I think Hope and Josie's dynamic is more interesting/beautiful, but anyway.

I think the fandom puts too much on Penelope, even if she's not my favorite character. And I think she genuinely probably was a good girlfriend to Josie, but despite that Josie doesn't seem to like her. I assume their breakup was pretty ugly and maybe Penelope said some nasty things, but idk. Josie is also, understandably, very defensive of Lizzie and is upset/angry that Penelope doesn't like her. Because at the end of the day, Lizzie was her first best friend and she's her twin sister.

But moments like where Josie tells her "you and I only make out when slugs are possessing our brains" or when, after their kiss, Josie says "I hate you" just... jgrkhj turn me off from the dynamic. I don't really like that kind of dynamic in a ship? I prefer it when it feels like both characters are like unreasonably obsessed with the other to the point of it being almost reverent. I love when ships almost elevate the other person to being worshipped in their mind. Like with hosie, I love how Hope was coveted by Josie for years and years and she saw her as someone who was strong/good/beautiful. I love "Of course I did. who wouldn't?" and the implication that she thinks Hope is just the most perfect thing to ever exist and she just pines after her even when she tries to ignore it or squash it. I also love how, in return, Hope trusts and is drawn to Josie even when she has no real 'reason' to be and she's nice to Josie for things she never would be for anyone else. It's very hard for Hope to be angry with Josie and it pretty much just... doesn't happen? She has this soft spot for her that's bordering on completely unreasonable and I think it's incredibly romantic. In that way, they both return each other's energy. In contrast, with Penelope, Josie harbors all of these complicated feelings. She clearly still likes Penelope and misses her when she leaves, so there are unresolved romantic feelings present, but yeah.

It just doesn't feel as big a deal as the ones she has for Hope, so the ship just never hit for me. There's also no build up and we have no idea how they started dating or... any of that.

So I get why people love posie, but for me I just don't care about it, I guess.

Trying to put aside my biases, do I think they could get back together at the end? Well, for starters, both of their arcs are incomplete. Penelope was written off and we knew almost nothing about her. Josie's arc was absolutely butchered, had no real climax or conclusion and her write off made zero sense.

So it's hard to say, like, would it make 'sense' for the characters when they weren't fully formed like they deserved. I think it's plausible that they could date again, especially since Josie decided to separate herself from Lizzie and we're supposed to assume the Merge issue is resolved now. So.. maybe? That being said, the writers and showrunner made it extremely vague if Josie was going to be near Penelope in Belgium.

When asked, Brett basically dodged it and wouldn't confirm if it's the same school/if she's with Penelope. Which... I guess I'm okay with, since I'm not a posie shipper. I can see how, if you care about sapphic rep, this might be kind of a cop out answer, especially after how poorly posie was treated to begin with. But at the same time I think that might be the best way he can answer it, because making it official that she's with Penelope would be almost sloppy too, since her character never came back and we never had more of that arc develop, y'know? Like just in a writing quality kind of way, it might make more sense for it to be open ended I suppose.

But basically, to answer the original question, I do think it's plausible they could date again with all those obstacles cleared. It's just not my personal choice for Josie

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It kinda makes me feel like Penelope is more sensitive than she herself (and others) let on

I… don’t even think she hates Lizzie 🧍I think she was telling the truth when she said it wasn’t about her and it was about Josie. Otherwise she wouldn’t have been capable of looking happy for Lizzie and MG in that moment. I think her methods are questionable and Hope’s are better, another reason why hosie is superior, but I’m no longer certain she hated Lizzie

The jabs were petty but then I think about how she was trying to break Lizzie and Josie up (and the way she knew about the Merge so to Penelope this whole thing was a life and death matter and she felt like she needed to light the match that made Josie ‘fight’ to live, because she didn’t want to see how sad it would be if Josie just gave up immediately)

+ and that line of dialogue when she said “I do everything on purpose”

MG and Lizzie are actually adorable at the dance 😭 And the way Penelope looks so soft watching them??? OKAY?? but then she noticed Josie wasn’t there and her expression fell and she looked so wounded? That hurt me

Her and Hope teaming up to be the Josie protectors :(

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I actually agree with you here because while the sentiment of taking shots at Lizzie is still lame, in reality Lizzie wasn’t owed a seat on the council. Especially since she didn’t actually want it and we see that as soon as she tells Josie she just wanted Raf

Similarly, MG wasn’t owed that spot either and Kaleb got it because the vampires respected him. Which we end up seeing is because he’s actually a great friend and puts a lot of thought into the greater good, even if his worldview about vampires and humans is kinda fucked up at the moment lmao

okay i lied i actually love that penelope got josie elected