#spirits in thedas

[ofcrowsanddragons]

Oh shit, what if Avvar shaman can cast Smite?

[ofcrowsanddragons]

@astray-as-a-cat Yes, blood is a tool in magic, and not all magic that uses blood is "bad" according to some of the stories we have access to in Thedas.

It goes beyond that, though, where the definitions of blood magic create a taxonomy where some magic using blood is not considered blood magic and some magic that doesn't use blood is considered blood magic. These definitions are argued about in codices, and have very different conclusions based on where the author is from and what their ideology is.

For example, the Orlesian/Southern Chantry can be both stringent and inconsistent about its application of a rule we can call "All communing with spirits is blood magic" and that would include any manipulation of the veil. Yet the Harrowing (using lyrium to send a mage into the Fade to face demons) and the creation of a blood phylactery is not considered to be blood magic. The taxonomy is actually whether it's a Chantry approved type of magic or a banned one.

The games are pretty explicit about the grey areas there are when it comes to connecting with the Fade. I'm thinking about the danger that the Somnari/dreamer mage was in when you found him in Kirkwall, and not just because of the demons.

And of course... (Inquisition spoilers?)

All use of lyrium is technically blood magic.

the mortalitasi may be the funniest mages in thedas because as far as i can tell their entire strategy is just to do blood magic with so much confidence nobody questions it

[cybershock24601]

More modern au Rookanis, this time about Lucanis breaking the news that he's dating to his family.

So the Dellamortes are all gathered together in their big ass dining room to eat dinner and Caterina decides to tell Lucanis that she has set him up for a date with what she considers a suitable partner for him because he is 36 and if she is going to get any great grandkids before she's in the grave then clearly she is going to have to be the one putting the legwork in to set him up with someone. [Caterina has already given up on Illario because while he's had a lot of partners over the years, he's clearly not the type to settle down and raise a family.]

Unlike the many other times Lucanis has just nodded and gone along with it to please his grandmother, this time Lucanis declines and when Caterina pushes for a reason why he has to admit that he's seeing someone right now.

You could have heard a pin drop in that room with how silent it got if it weren't for the fact that Illario dropped his wineglass on the floor in shock. Caterina didn't even fuss at him for breaking the good glassware because she's also processing the fact that her grandson has apparently been dating someone and has said nothing about it to her. Unfortunately for Lucanis, her shock doesn't last long as she starts questioning him on how long this has been going on and Lucanis has to guiltily admit that its been about 6 months.

This is about the time Illario reboots and dramatically exclaims "You've been seeing dating someone for six months and you didn't tell me?!" like its the greatest slight he's ever received in his life.

There's a lot of reasons Lucanis didn't tell his family about dating Rook like he was terrified they'd disapprove and scare her off and specifically in the case of Illario, I feel like Illario has had a history of seducing people Lucanis has shown an interest in or when that didn't work sabotaging any sort of budding relationship because that's how Illario deals with his inferiority complex and resentment towards Lucanis because if they fall for him then it proves he's better then Lucanis and if he ruins the relationship then he has one area in life that he excels at over Lucanis and that's romance. Of course Lucanis and Illario have never actually addressed or acknowledged this but it is one of the many issues silently festering between them.

The other reason is Lucanis is very aware of the age gap between himself and Rook because he's in his mid thirties and Rook is somewhere in her early twenties. Lucanis is a lot more self conscious of the optics of their relationship especially when you add in the fact that he's loaded and Rook is driving around in Bianca. Sure Lucanis would love to absolutely drown Rook in gifts and take care of her for the rest of his life but Rook being so young and coming from much simpler means could definitely lead to Illario and Caternia making some unflattering and untrue assumptions about Rook, namely being a gold digger. [Nevermind the fact that Rook might have been a foster kid but she was raised by super wealthy art collector Vorgoth and as such is not nearly as dazzled by the Dellamorte family's wealth as they would assume looking at the way Rook dresses or her car. If anything Rook is biting back some very bitchy comments she could be making about the obscene ostentatiousness of the Dellamorte estate.]

Instead of saying any of that Lucanis settles on the neutral response that he wanted to see how the relationship would go before he introduced them to the family. The rest of the dinner is just Caterina and Illario interrogating Lucanis about his love life and Lucanis desperately trying to dodge the questions because he does not need Caterina or Illario butting into things with Rook because things are going really well right now and Lucanis is terrified that its all going to fall apart soon. Half of rookanis' relationship is them going 'are you sure you still like me' and then the other one saying the most romantic and poetic response that basically boils down to 'of course I do and I won't ever stop'

All this leads to Illario all but immediately getting on instagram and trying to find out who the hell Lucanis is dating. It's not like Lucanis has social media but Illario has meet Neve before and starts there because she's his first suspect for Lucanis' secret sweetheart and finds nothing. He then starts looking at any photo she's been tagged in and manages to locate Lucanis' whole friend group and Illario was aware that Lucanis had actually made some friends for the first time in the last year but he was not expecting them to be so weird. Every new profile Illario finds just makes him despair more for Lucanis' taste because he doesn't know which one Lucanis' is dating but he's judging hard already.

Eventually he finds what looks like Lucanis holding hands with someone in the background of a blurry photo Taash posted of some birds but the picture is so out of focus he can't see any identifying details. Illario ends up chucking his phone at the wall in frustration because he's been at this for hours and can find nothing because for some reason all of Lucanis' friends are ludites that post almost nothing at all or random pictures that give Illario nothing to work with to narrow down which of these freaks and weirdos Lucanis has settled on.

Caterina on the other hand has already hired a private investigator to find out who Lucanis is seeing and everything about them. Caterina has a file on her desk in three days about an inch thick full of information on this 'Rook' that Lucanis has apparently decided is the One.

[deimcs]

❧ FORTUNA LAIDIR The physical world has always been a reign made of shadows since the day I was born, but through these same eyes I'm able to peer beyond the Veil and truly see what lies ahead. The spirits that inhabit the folds of Time are always watching.

[lizzybeeee]

Mythal - The Great Protector

[vaguely-concerned]

the idea this game posits that just as much as or even more so than lucanis is having a demon problem, spite is currently having a lucanis problem. is everything to me. spite voice bitch you live like this???

[thefadecodex]

As discussed in the Theory of Spirit Complexity, spirits can evolve into more complex forms through direct interaction with the physical world or by observing and mirroring these interactions within the Fade. This concept builds upon and expands ideas introduced in the Spiritual Alignment Classification System and When Purpose Falters.

This creator is theorizing based on the lore that there are multiple, flexible pathways to purpose (or corruption) and evolution for spirits. An example of this train of thought is below:

In previous games and established lore, our understanding of spirits' purpose and corruption remains limited, often resulting in rigid assumptions about how corruption manifests. 

For example:

When Justice merged with Anders, he transformed into Vengeance, reinforcing the belief that a Spirit of Justice, when corrupted, must inevitably become a Spirit of Vengeance. (side note from the creator: I suspect this might be linked to the Blight present in Anders, which is discussed further down)

This narrow perspective overlooks the potential nuances and variability in how spirits might experience corruption or transformation. 

Instead, let’s look at other forms that a Spirit of Justice could possible become if it is corrupted: 

What determines what a spirit will be corrupted into? The creator of The Fade Codex theorizes that it is based on the situation that put the spirit against it’s original purpose. Going with the example above of Justice being corrupted:

Fear: A Spirit of Justice becomes so afraid of failure or further injustices it can become paralyzed or overly reactive.

Despair: A Spirit of Justice witnessing endless cycles of injustice and failure to make meaningful change.

Vengeance: A Spirit of Justice becomes consumed with frustration and anger leading an overwhelming desire to punish rather than balance.

Tyranny: A Spirit of Justice becomes obsessed with enforcing order and fairness to an extreme that it suppresses freedom and choice.

Passivity: A Spirit of Justice becomes overwhelmed by the scale of injustice or believes that intervention will always lead to unintended harm, leading to inaction.

Case Study: The Blight Within – Justice and Anders

Subject: The Spirit of Justice

Host: Anders, Grey Warden and Apostate Mage

Corrupting Influence: The Blight (disembodied rage of the Titans)

Background: Justice, a Fade spirit inhabiting the corpse of Grey Warden Kristoff, merged with Anders, a Grey Warden mage consumed by anger at the oppression of mages. Anders’ Blight-tainted blood, carrying the Titans' disembodied rage, began corrupting Justice's purpose.

Observation: Initially driven by balance and fairness, Justice was twisted by the Blight's primal fury and Anders’ deeply personal anger regarding the treatment of mages. The Blight amplified Justice’s purpose into something violent and unyielding, warping it into Vengeance—a spirit driven by rage, punishment, and destruction rather than resolution.

Case Study: Manfred

The same line of reasoning can be applied to Manfred, a Spirit of Curiosity inhabiting a skeleton. However, Manfred's case differs significantly from Anders and Justice or Wynne and Faith, as the skeleton he occupies lacks a pre-existing soul.  

Emmrich observes that Manfred is actively learning, with his progress accelerating after leaving the Grand Necropolis, where his growth had been gradual.

Emmrich notes Manfred's increasing engagement in various behaviors and his eventual ability to speak, albeit very rudimentary. Additionally, Winter Wise (@winter-wise) highlights that Manfred seems to be mimicking Emmrich's actions, suggesting that his learning is not purely instinctive but shaped by observation and imitation.

Manfred has a stick he likes to point around - Emmrich uses a staff Manfred walked into a rose bush - Emmrich loves flowers Manfred likes to collect shiny things, including gilded things - Emmrich wears a lot of gold

This suggests that Manfred is actively learning and evolving.  

Several codex entries reflect Emmrich's ongoing contemplation of spirit consciousness. In 'The Dawn of Consciousness,' he questions when wisps begin to change, pondering "which can name its own interests…[and] own self-reflection." 

In another entry, ‘Emmrich: Note to Harding on Souls,’ he defines a soul as "the richly numinous force within every living being… and a spirit as an entity formed entirely in the Fade from raw magic." We receive this codex immediately upon recruiting Emmrich, so it does predates Solas's revelation about his transition from a spirit in the Fade to a physical form

This implies that spirits and souls may not be as fundamentally different as once believed, hinting at a shared essence that bridges the Fade and the physical world.

What, then, is Manfred evolving into? Will he become a “person” as defined by the majority of Thedas? Or is he developing into a more complex spirit, perhaps transitioning from a Spirit of Curiosity into something like a Spirit of Learning? 

The creator of The Fade Codex leans toward Solas's perspective—that spirits can be considered "persons," regardless of whether they possess a physical body or not. However, at this stage, the answer remains uncertain.

[nessacousland]

Well, I finally finished Dragon Age: Friendship is Magic and that is *my* biggest regret.

[thebookworm0001]

thinking about how anaris turns elves into demons

it’s not a possession

they become demons

that’s fucking insane

[wardensantoineandevka]

look, I simply don't have the patience to entertain argumentations apparently rooted in the idea that everything Solas says about anything is a clear-eyed and fair judgment of what the current state of affairs is, what the implications or consequences of that state of affairs is, how those living in those conditions feel about them, what is the best way to move forward to improve those conditions, and what the consequences of any action he takes in an attempt to correct or fix that state of affairs is going to be.

he's a very interesting character and one that I do find sympathetic, especially after Veilguard, but I find it laughable to take anything he says as even remotely grounded in the reality of Thedas now or that his claims about what is and what will be are authoritative. his tragedy is that he is unable to see outside of his perspective and his desperation to assuage his regrets and guilts over hurting others and the world repeatedly in an attempt to make up for or correct his previous hurtful mistakes, which invariably go wrong, creating a vicious cycle. the thing is that Solas does not want to work with the current reality because he feels guilt and regret over creating it, so he is trying to hit a reset button to restore what he destroyed, believing that such a reset is even possible after the world having already changed so much since, adapted to new material conditions, and is trying to find a way forward and better through it—so, I don't necessarily find it convincing that he understands what the current reality even is and whether this is the best course of action to remedy what harm or pain is happening.

if an argumentation starts from a supposition that Solas has the most clear, sensible, authoritative, and grounded assessment and judgment about what is happening now, what must happen to move forward, and what will happen after he acts, I find it a fundamentally flawed one and thus too tedious to entertain, especially given that the series as a whole is very loud about how everything is being filtered through a flawed perspective

[amaryllis-sagitta]

I've always disliked the spirit origin theory and I finally know why

To put it briefly: it's the cornerstone of the Thedosian brand of gnostic pessimism ingrained in the worldbuilding around both Fade spirits and elves, that subtly condemns their existence among the living no matter how hard the writing tries to compensate in the other direction (and to be fair, it hardly ever does).

I have already mentioned in several analyses that the worldbuilding in Dragon Age is trying to impose some objective moral order through the system of virtues embodied by Fade spirits and the speculated position of the Maker, illustrated through the visual allegory of The Gaze. Every place where the Gaze does not fall is identified as the Void - the realm of the Blight, demonic whisperings, evil in mortals' souls, oblivion and erasure.

This moral compass ingrained in Thedosian worldbuilding is outlined in the Canticle of Threnodies. I have always posited that we can read the Canticle's "Maker" as a purely formal locus meant to hook up some form of prisca theologia that would be partially true regardless of whom we put in the Maker's seat.

For example: the Canticle claims that when "The Maker" created the physical world from a portion of the Fade itself, then Their firstborn, Fade spirits, turned away from their perfect resonance with the Maker. They envied what they were not, and for this poisoning of the heavenly "song" with discordant (so, evil) intentions, the Maker castigated them, declared them the first demons, and made humans Their "chosen" race -- presumably, this time building them of both Earth and Spirit so that they would not envy partaking in either.

After multiple hints left in DAI Trespasser, that sparked speculation about the spirit origin theory as the dominating fan theory years ago, DATV confirmed that the "firstborn elvhen" were Fade spirits that manifested physically. They used lyrium, the blood of the Earth's Titans, to build themselves physical bodies. The Stone retaliated, and the first elvhen waged a war with it, eventually devising a way to sunder the spirit essence/ dreams from all Titans. It is heavily implied that this choice to carry out their existence on Earth as war and conquest has twisted whatever the "virtuous" spiritual nature was left in the Evanuris, and that after the end of that war, Elgar'nan simply could not stop.

Why would they do it though? While some concept art from the artbook shows spirits observing primordial dwarves dwarfing, in the end, the Regret mural that shows Mythal inviting Solas into the world explicitly tells us he had no desire to live "as HUMANS" (and the story fails to bridge that lore drop with the known lore about humans allegedly arriving to Thedas from across the seas, and only being able to thrive after the Veil).

So, despite disproving the story about the Chantry's Maker creating the Veil, the writing confirms the Chant's initial overtly anthropocentric orientation. Humans were always special and spirits were always meant to backup and store their ethically charged concepts. But the important accomplishment here is that spirits/ elvhen are doomed with an inherent moral error that snowballs into inevitable strife, destruction and error!

But wait, there's more! Because now that we have the anthropocentrism as our implied position towards the Thedosian races, the history of the elvhen race looks even more like some bizzare form of "karmic" reckoning that completely misses the point of a reckoning, to replace it with unwarranted generational punishment. First, as a result of the Great Betrayal, the elvhen are sundered from their connection to the spirit essence, and thus subjected to the Quickening, which I guess is supposed to be a way of the world giving the elvhen a taste of their own medicine and saying "Be careful what you wish for". Then, once they are finally effectively like humans in every metaphysical respect (unbeknownst to everyone except the remaining ancient elvhen), the moral corruption of the Evanuris gets passed on as the Tevinters learn to glorify blood sacrifice at the behest of their Old Gods (who are really Evanuris speaking through their Archdemons, at any capacity they still have left). This gets used to further humiliate the remainders of ancient Arlathan. What happened to the elvhen now gives Solas reason to hate the mortal physical existence of elves twofold.

The fact that elves keep being punished by the narrative is a direct result of BioWare implementing the spirit origin theory the way they did, because it was devised as a scenario of original sin that necessitates conflict and moral downfall, and ends up snowballing into dooming elves through and through.

But more than that, as I have mentioned in another post, on the metaphysical level, "pure" spirits should be occupied solely with their respective defining abstracts. Spirits should know no desire. Desire is the "unquenchable flame" that defines humans. As far as DAO, we would read that the more benevolent spirits prefer to sit back in the Fade and not interfere with the mortals, and the ones with the greatest drive to join the living are predatory demons.

And the reason for all of this is "the Maker" being bored of perfection in the Golden City, and wanting some change. That the world requires change and opposition to let its best aspects shine is not an controversial idea. However, in the Dragon Age worldbuilding, this necessity for change is not introduced under a milder Hermetic assumption that, even after being cast down into a darker realm of the incarnate, one can successfully control their mundane passions and heal their soul from corrupting influences whilst existing physically... Not on the grand scale, at least.

Once spirits decided to enter the physical world, they started acting like they were trapped and forced to fight for their lives (despite them being the trespassers). The vast majority of them got spiritually corrupted (if they didn't represent vices like Tyranny from the get-go), they dragged their hesitant kin down with them through manipulation. The elvhen race fell into tyranny as their "First" were actually the worst, yet people looked up to them for survival. One particularly inventive specimen devised two catastrophic tools -- one, to deflect onto the Titans whatever should have happened to the first elvhen in order to sunder what has been wrongly joined; the other, to sunder the tyrannical Evanuris from the rest of the elvhen and spirits and stop their corrupting influence. Yet, because the world changes, the collateral of one such tool introduced a wholly new type of rampant evil, and the collateral of the other made the whole elvhen race spiral down... even further into their entrapment in physicality!

The way they built up the spirit origin theory, it draws a full circle: first, the Southern Chantry and the Dalish demonize Fade spirits - one for dogmatic reasons, because it sees the marriage of spirit and flesh as something that is evil even in humans, the other because they can't be denied that healthy cackle of metaphysical irony even if they try their hardest. Then, with DAI Solas and Cole, we're acquainted with a more sympathetic understanding of Fade spirits as being that are fundamentally different but operate on a logic that doesn't automatically lead to a shitshow of a moral downfall. But then, we learn that a group of spirits doomed the entire world to millennia of strife because they felt curiosity for the Other and because the choice to cross the great threshold almost automatically made them forget the virtues they supposedly embodied and spiral down into the "lower" survival instincts.

Personally, I believe that spirits & elvhen could be built on a fundamental existential difference in a way that would have made their excursions into each other's realm temporary. I believe that the spirit origin theory, even if upheld, could have been taken in a direction that didn't imply instant rampant and thoughtless colonialism on the elvhen part. I believe that such choices would have enforced worldbuilding that didn't need to condemn the spirits/ elvhen with that weird version the original sin that receives completely unsympathetic treatment as the time goes by.

[sorcerly]

Understanding that Solas was first a spirit clarifies that he is now, and has been for some time, a demon, or adjacent to one.

We can see this through the dread wolf flashbacks. Solas was a spirit of wisdom in the fade, a gentle companion of Mythal. When Mythal begged him to leave his home for her benefit, he did - and the world that he witnessed changed him.

He became the General of a militant resistance effort in the material world, making choices that directly caused conflict, devastation, sorrow, and violence.

To go from a peaceful existence in the fade to a tooth-and-claw, gristle-and-bone, desperation-and-sacrifice-laden life on the material plane - in an instant - that’s a kind of monumental foundational shift that we as humans have no frame of reference for. In Thedas, the only beings who can possibly experience that abrupt transition are Spirits; and in the canon text of the world, it usually results in a twisting of the spirits nature - a corruption that turns them from a spirit to a demon.

So Solas must be a demon. Not quite the same as demons the player is always fighting, but a demon nonetheless.

[cypjj]

Veilguard didn't let me play dress-up with inky so I had to take matters into my own hands

[flashhwing]

I will admit I am still in act one but can anyone give me a single example of Spite actually acting spiteful in any way

[dankinthedas]

Blackwall: I am sorry about your…friend. Losing someone is difficult.

Solas: Thank you. The death itself was less painful than what came before. Seeing a good spirit twisted, its nature defiled…those mages knew nothing of my friend. Worse, they did not care.

Blackwall: I don’t know what to say.

Solas: Nor will you, until you’ve seen ignorance snatch away all that you love. Pray such a day never finds you.

SHRINE TO SYLAISE | EXALTED PLAINS

[thefadecodex]

In DATV, our understanding of spirits deepens through two pivotal quests: In Memoriam and Spirits of the Dalish. These quests portray spirits as deeply empathetic entities shaped by emotions, capable of growth, distress, and healing.

The basic 'formula' can be used to figure out if a Spirit is going to become corrupted or return to the Fade: Purpose Disrupted → Emotional Distress → Catalyst Event → Mortal Intervention → Outcome (Corruption or Return).

In In Memoriam:

A Spirit of Compassion transforms into Eulogy through an act of remembrance.

This transformation highlights that spirits can evolve when guided by mortal intention.

In Spirits of the Dalish:

An 'Anxious Spirit', burdened by grief over the deaths of the Dalish, risks corruption.

Bellara observes that spirits overwhelmed by negative emotions are at risk of turning into something darker.

Spite identifies the Anxious Spirit as a Spirit of Comfort.

For the Spirit of Comfort to return to the Fade, it requires action, including: 1. Gathering mementos and 2. Holding a vigil.

This concept is briefly explored in DAI, but the encounter is so fleeting that it didn’t leave a strong impression on the creator, even after multiple playthroughs. However, it seems likely that this quest was laying the groundwork for a deeper exploration of the idea in DATV

In Burdens of Command (DAI):

A Spirit of Command struggles with the physical world’s refusal to obey its directives, unlike the fluid responsiveness of the Fade.

The spirit expresses frustration at its inability to exert control in the physical realm.

The Inquisitor aids the spirit by slaying the Rage Demon.

After receiving assistance, the spirit returns to the Fade with ease.

So, what does this tell us? Spirits are not static entities—they are deeply influenced by mortal intention, emotional states, and symbolic acts. Their stability hinges on fulfilling their purpose or finding resolution, without which they risk corruption or transformation.

1. Spirits Have a 'Threshold' for Emotional Distress

Implication: Spirits can endure negative emotions or experiences for only a limited time before risking corruption or transformation.

Significance: This suggests spirits have an internal tether to their purpose. When that tether is strained or broken, their identity unravels, leaving them vulnerable to corruption or transformation into darker forms (e.g., Comfort becoming Fear or Despair).

2. Spirits Require Resolution Through Action

Implication: The Anxious Spirit needed an act of closure (the vigil) to find peace, showing that spirits cannot simply "will" themselves back to their purpose—they require external, symbolic actions aligned with their nature.

Significance: Spirits rely on harmony between their emotional state and purpose, often needing external intervention to restore balance. This suggests they are not entirely self-sufficient and may depend on mortals or other spirits for stability.

3. Spirits Are Deeply Affected by Mortal Emotions and Experiences

Implication: The Anxious Spirit's distress stemmed from the violent, unresolved deaths of the Dalish, showing that spirits are deeply empathetic and can become trapped in emotional feedback loops tied to mortal events.

Significance: Spirits' emotional states are reactive and tethered to their surroundings, suggesting they can "absorb" ambient emotional energy, especially when it clashes with their purpose.

4. Corruption May Not Be Instantaneous, But a Process

Implication: Spirits do not immediately become corrupted when they encounter negative emotions. There is a window of opportunity to intervene, as seen with the Anxious Spirit.

Significance: This challenges the assumption that spirits are instantly corrupted by negative emotions.*

*Note: This is not including events where a spirit is bound against it's will and forced against it's purpose.

5. Action is Needed for Spirits

Implication: The vigil was not just a symbolic act for the Anxious Spirit—it was an anchor, grounding the spirit back to its original purpose.

Significance: Spirits often need ritual or symbolic acts to realign with their purpose after prolonged distress, highlighting their intrinsic connection to intention, symbolism, and the constructs of the Fade..

6. Time Is a Factor in Spirit Corruption

Implication: The longer a spirit exists in emotional distress, the closer they come to losing their purpose and becoming corrupted.

Significance: There seems to be an unspoken "time limit" during which intervention must occur. This "time limit" may different depending on the spirit as well--a more "simple" spirit, such as a Spirit of Comfort may have less time for an intervention vs a more "complex" spirit, such as a Spirit of Compassion.