#spiderverse theory

[alexxuun]

plsplspls i am so desperate to hear ur origin theory for miles g pls

OK SO, y’all seen the description for Earth-42 in the artbook?

(Pic creds to @cucumberteapot)

My prediction is that uncle aaron did not ever became the prowler before miles, he did do crime but haven’t create the prowler yet. This is because Jeff died when miles was young so Aaron quit a life of crime to become a father figure to miles. How do i know that? Because THIS IS SHOWN IN THE SPOT FUTURE VISION. When he show inspector singh trying to save a child, it cut to JEFF trying to save a child that looks extremely similar to the design of Miles G. This could mean spot is predicting both miles’ future and miles G’s past.

(Also creds to @cucumberteapot for giving me this insight)

IF JEFF DIED WHEN MILES WAS YOUNG, THAT EXPLAIN HIS COLD RESPOND WHEN MILES TALK ABOUT HIS DAD BECAUSE AARON IS HIS FATHER FIGURE. This also explain why miles is the prowler and not aaron because they built the persona together.

[fermented-writers-block]

Not gonna lie, with the Spot’s upcoming time mucking shenanigans as suggested by the flashes of the future in Miles’ vision, I would not be surprised if the dimensional collapsing theorized by Miguel to come from averting too many “Canon Events” will turn out to be a side effect of something the Spot will either do himself or set up to screw with Miles.

Particularly, with how much his origin monologue to Miles and Jeff centered around the idea that he made Spider-Man and vice versa, note how incredibly well that mentality would dovetail with Miguel and the Spider Society’s belief that the “Canon Events” are what made them Spider-Man.

@kindaorangey has a good post pointing out how the Spot’s mindset of “filling the hole with more holes” is a pretty apt metaphor for the way Miles, Gwen, and likely the other spider people diving into the identity of Spider-Man as a crutch for dealing with the isolation caused by said identity, but suffice to say, OP and @sir-adamus had these tags which I'd like to use as a jumping pad:

For this, we can analyze Miguel and Spot as two sides of the same coin, where Miguel’s side is about allowing canon events to play out through inaction, and Spot's side could potentially lead up to (as a side effect of his grudge against Miles) actively ensuring that only those canon events happen, with any deviations that don't fit into their views being cast aside.

The former position projects personal traumas as absolutely necessary and destined to happen onto others, the latter position rejects any possibility that things could go differently in a quite literal manner. But in the end, both ultimately are about "filling in the hole with more holes" and dictating what Miles "should" be like.

Miguel doesn’t think Miles is a real Spider-Man and that him becoming Spider-Man was a mistake that never should have happened, all from his obsessive mentality surrounding Canon Events. He and by extension the other Spider-Men stuck in their hole of guilt and fatalism, surrounding themselves with other Spider-Men stuck in their holes of trauma and grief to where they have formed an echo chamber that tells them Miles cannot save his father's life and that they cannot do anything to save people anymore.

And in the Spot's case, the metaphor already came from him, but it's all about obsessively centering his new, lonely existence around being not just A, but THE nemesis to Miles' Spider-Man. He lost everything and has nothing except his connection to Spider-Man. To fill that hole, he's not only only making himself a villain that Miles will actually respect. He's going to try his damnedest to make sure that Miles reaches his full potential as Spider-Man just like he talked about in Mumbattan, and fill the hole with more holes in Miles' life until Miles is devoid of everything except the Spot.

Given the flashes of future events in Miles’ vision, if and when the Spot inevitably hears about Miguel's theory of Canon Events, it would only be fitting if the Spot retroactively becomes responsible for all the previous dimensional destruction the Spider-Society dealt with. And thus, Miguel's theory obsession would be its own recursive creator.

A vicious cycle of telling themselves that things have to happen a certain way, of blaming uncontrollable circumstances on something they think they can and should control, and of refusing to let go of the spiral they've fallen into.

After all, Miles already had an Uncle Ben-type event and the Spot is trying to set up a Captain Stacy-type event. Since the logical conclusion to the themes of Miles choosing what kind of Spider-Man he wants to be and not allowing preventable tragedies to happen would be that Jeff lives, well…

It would only be narratively fitting for the Spot to try to set up a Gwen Stacy event later down the line.

Because if Miles being bit and the Spot getting caught up in the collider wasn't destiny, if the intersection of their lives was simply due to circumstances they had no control over, if the dimensional collapses weren't because preventing Canon Events is inherently destabilizing to reality in of itself, then Miguel and the Spot would have to look inwards and actually try to figure out how to fill the holes in their lives.

So Miguel tells himself that what he does has to be done, that only he is strong enough to do it, and that everyone should follow his lead and stop caring.

As for the Spot?

If he fails to kill Jeff and Gwen, and when it's proven to everyone else that Canon Events are not required lynchpins of reality like Gwen found, he might just decide to try to make them actual lynchpins across time and space.

Or at least, making it so that the only realities that can exist are ones where those events happen.

Aka trying to forcibly changing the multiverse so suffering huge tragedy becomes an inherently integral part of Spider-Man the concept, rather than a mere possibility. So many Spider-Men and their dimensions getting hurt in the crossfire, and all in the process of targeting Miles Morales specifically.

Truly, it would be quite resonant if and when the Spider-Society let and help Miles get to save his Captain and Gwen Stacy. Beating the Spot would no longer be about the concept of stopping a threat to the multiverse and their canon events, but about metaphorically ending the cycle of suffering and finding a way to move forwards beyond the guilt. They probably can’t actually change the past, but with this, they can fight to prevent it from happening to others.

[paintsplash1712]

Okay but The Spider Society is totally a cult right?

Like am I the only one who's noticed this?

The way they treat people like Gwen is totally like a cult or an abusive family. 'Hey, Gwen, we can see you're all alone with no family or home left so come join our little group and you'll feel whole again everything that happened to you for a reason, but don't call out our BS or you'll be kicked out and never be able to see Miles again!'

Gwen is always on edge with them, she's afraid to speak up until the end of the movie and Peter is too stupid to notice the obvious red flags of Miguel and Jessica-Drew.

Then when Miles reunites with Gwen the Society treats him like shit because of their own personal beliefs and when Miles (as an outsider) tries to call them out they attack him and act like he's a monster that destroyed their perfect home.

And Gwen by that point is too far in to save Miles. Its only when Miles is able to escape she realises how abusive the Spider Society is.

And it's with the help of an ex member, Hobbie, who only stayed to help the newer members escape while they can, that they're able to save Miles (hopefully).

I don't know if I'm over thinking this but I've had this thought this watching the movie

[honeysluiced]

reposting this incredible hobie analysis by @lizzytheowl577 i stumbled across in a youtube comment section

Spoilers ahead 

Ok so Hobie was all set to betray Miguel the moment he realized that Miles might be in trouble. The first thing to tell us this is that Hobie actively congratulates Miles when he stopped the cannon event from happening. Presumably every Spider-person who the event isn't for gets an alert when one is about to happen to keep them from interfering, this includes Hobie. He knows Miles just broke the rules in a major way and he's estatic about it. If I remember right, he's the only person who actually congratulates him on the rescue (Other than Pavitr of course). 

Next, when Miguel orders all of them to come to the Spider-Lobby (I don't think it had an official name and if it did I forgot it) Hobie puts his arm around Miles then says "I don't follow orders and neither does he". I initially read this as Hobie trying to keep Miles safe from Miguel, in a "We'll run right now if we have to kind of way" but the more I think about it, I don't think this is the case. I think Hobie believed that Miles knew he was breaking a cannon event and that's why he tacked on "and neither does he" at the end. 

Once Hobie realizes that Miles is ecstatic to go to the Spider-Lobby, he starts to second guess himself. He asks Gwen how much Miles knows, discovers he knows basically nothing and on the spot switches to talking Miles out of joining. Telling him to make his own watch and that he wouldn't like being in this group.

When Miles asks why Hobie is even there, he's says he's there to look out for his drummer. What he doesn't say is that he's doing that by trying to help Miles. Through this whole conversation, he is stealing bits and pieces of equipment from the lab, and it's implied he uses those pieces later on to make a new watch for Gwen to use. From at least that point, probably earlier, he knows that Miles isn't going to sit quietly while his dad dies, and Gwen is eventually going to want to help him. Which is why he delivers the watch to Gwen instead of trying to go straight to Miles. 

Later on, when Miles is getting angry about all the other Spider-People telling him to let his dad die, Hobie eggs him on. This is not just something he does impulsively. He realized early on when Miles talked about his parents that all he needed was a few nudges to go against Miguel's system. When Miles started showing signs of discontent, he decided to pick that moment to egg him on because that was the most effective time to. Then, Miles gets trapped in the energy prison. 

Hobie helps him get out of it, but the way this is done is genius. He holds up his hands and mouths "palms". To everyone else this would look like he was trying to just calm Miles down. If they just see his hands, it looks like a "calm down" gesture, if they read his lips, "calm" and "palm" are pronounced similarly enough that seeing him mouth one word, they'd assume in that instance he's saying "calm" as in "calm down". This in turn does two things: It gives Miles the element of surprise, and it doesn't make it look like Hobie helped. Those two things give both of them time, Miles get a few stunned seconds of a head start, and nobody chases or tracks down Hobie meaning he has time to make the new watches. He even throws away his current watch because he knows it can be tracked and Miguel might go after him after realizing he didn't help try to catch Miles. 

Basically Hobie is an incredibly intelligent character and they were able to demonstrate this really well in the short amount of time he actually got on screen.

[charlesoberonn]

What if Gwen Stacy falling (figuratively and literally) for Spider-Man is a Canon Event and Miguel allowed our Gwen to get to Miles intentionally knowing she’d die?

[lunarrosette]

So I’ve rewatched spiderverse 3 times now and one big thing I noticed was the fact to captain canon events phrasing “A police captain that is close to a spider person is killed saving a child during a fight with a nemesis” this is a main thing that causes me to doubt the canon event idea because Spot is not Pavitr’s nemesis and it’s supposedly his canon event so just because miles is also in the fight shouldn’t mean anything and also it’s not during a fight it’s the aftermath idk these are just my thoughts and I haven’t seen anyone talk abt this specific phrasing

[heart-of-the-morningstar]

Opening for BTSV thought…

Ok so, we know how Gwen opened up ATSV, she had like the first 20 minutes that set up the movie. Now hear me out, what if Pavitr opens up BTSV (I may be biased but let me live lol), but imagine if you will…

Pavitr was left behind when the rest of the Spider Band left for Nueva York, so Pav is there wondering what’s going on. He swings down to the other Spider people where they are trying to contain the black hole that appeared. He starts asking them questions, but all of the answers aren’t very helpful. “We’re trying to contain the anomaly.” “The canon was broken.” This doesn’t really clear anything up, but he knows whatever is happening is not good.

He swings back up to the bridge, he makes sure everyone is clear of the damage. He heads home to Maya Auntie, he finds her asleep on the couch. She left the tv on, it was the news. They were reporting on the black hole that appeared in the middle of city. Pav feels weary, he finds a blanket and places it over Maya and turns the tv off. He goes to bed and tries to sleep, but he can’t.

Quietly, he puts his suit on and grabs his watch from Miguel and swings into the night. His plan was to travel to Nueva York to get answers from Miguel as to what was happening to his city. But as he swings, he ends up swinging by Gayatri’s home. He sees her on the balcony and lands on a near by rooftop. Normally, he wouldn’t interact with her as Spider-Man, but in this case, he felt it justified to check up on her since he did rescue her earlier.

He swings and lands on top of her rooftop. He attaches is web to their chimney and hangs upside down in front of her. She’s startled at first but recollects herself once she realizes who it is. He apologizes for scaring her and says he recognized her as the girl from the bus. He asks her if she’s alright, she giggles and says she’s fine and that she’s lucky that he was there to save her. He’s relieved and tells her he needs to go, but she tells him to wait. She asks him if there’s a way she can repay him for saving her life, perhaps a kiss.

Pav is taken a back, he’s stammering, he wants to say yes because of course he wants a kiss from her. But he’s not Pavitr right now, he’s Spider-Man, he can’t accept. But he still form a coherent sentence, finding it hard to say no. Gayatri laughs “What’s wrong, you don’t want a kiss from your girlfriend, Pav?”

He goes silent, trying hard to process what she just said. “W-what?” is all he could manage. “It’s okay Pavitr, I know it’s you.” At this point, he flipped himself right-side up, standing in front of her now. Slowly, he reaches up to his mask and pulls it off, he stares at the ground.

“How did you know?” He asks softly, he hasn’t lifted his head to look at her yet. “Well, the hug you gave today kind of sealed it for me. But your hair is very recognizable, Pav.” He laughed a little, finally meeting her gaze. He apologizes for not telling her, saying he wanted to keep her safe. She’s understanding and give him a small peck on the cheek, it’s hard for him to hide the blush on his face.

He tells her that he’s worried about the black hole that appeared in the city today and that he’s going to to find answers. All of a sudden, there’s a shaking in her room. A few things start to levitate slowly off the ground, they look at each other confused. A portal opens, suddenly Gwen appears. Pavitr is relieved, Gayatri is still confused but relaxes when she sees her boyfriend is calm, he tells her not to worry and that she’s a friend.

“Miles is in trouble, Pav. We need your help. Please.” Gwen says. Behind her appears Hobie and Peter B with Mayday. Pavitr nods and turns to Gayatri. “I have to go. I’ll be back soon, I promise,” he says. He leans down and gives her a tight hug. “Be safe,” she whispers in his ear. He pulls back and smiles, “I always am.” He plants a small kiss on her forehead and heads towards Gwen and the portal.

Hobie, Peter B., and Gwen all walk through the portal. Pavitr turns around one last time before stepping through. “I love you,” he says, and disappears along with the portal.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Listen, this isn’t the prettiest writing or set up, but I would love something like this as it feels like a parallel to ATSV and Gwen’s story and I wanted to self indulge 😭

[frankly-idgad]

Call me crazy and maybe I’m digging to deep but what if this

Was a prelude for this?

Just a theory of course

[straighttxhell]

BEYOND THE SPIDER-VERSE THEORY

Miles is gonna drop Gwen

That's it, that's the theory. Someone save this post and give me credit when it happens in the movie but it's something that has been foreshadowed FOUR TIMES. She fell and he caught her once in into the spiderverse, and dropped her twice in across the spiderverse. And Gwen made a reference to it "in every universe Gwen Stacy falls for spiderman".

I know it's gonna happen again I just wanna know how much it plays into the story like if it's gonna happen during a critical moment or if it's gonna be the end of Gwen Stacy 💀 (again) but I can tell you she's falling in the third movie and you can hold me accountable and publicly shame me if it doesn't happen

[baobhanlore-art]

I know everyone is talking about the ATSV scene where Miguel goes apeshit but I just wanted to mention how Miguel is still addicted to Rapture, an insanely addictive drug exclusively developed by Alchemax to give him no choice but to keep working for them because he couldn't live without it. In the comics, him becoming Spiderman got rid of his addiction but possibly the trauma or some rewrites of his story makes it so he went back to it or just never overcame his addiction. (idk if there's more to it, I just read the fan wiki)

And I kind of have a theory that there's going to be a massive steakout due to The Spot fuckery that prevents them from going back to Nueva York, and Miguel won't have access to Rapture when he desperately needs it and starts going through withdrawals. It makes him more sensitive to light, as part of the vampire motif, but imagine the insane feral Miguel we saw but going through incomprehensibly severe withdrawals. I don't feel like they'd introduce the drug if it wasn't important, and minor details in ITSV have paid off in ATSV so who's to say we won't see more of it. It may also be a pinch point where he's forcef to retreat in a conflict with Miles and his friends and he can't stay in the sunlight anymore, but he starts suffering majorly from withdrawals and starts to lose control over himself.

Also idk if this really fits but I have another theory that Miguel is going to do something mirroring Miles in Mumbattan where he puts himself in an insane level of danger to protect a civilian, and I genuinely think it might be protecting Mayday. It would be a moment similar to Andrew Garfield Spider-Man saving MCU MJ, where he can't save the person he lost but he can prevent someone else going through the same pain he did.

That's just some theories though. Idk if they'll have any relevance.

[miaushii]

Do you think that in Beyond the spider verse , there would be more alternate Gwens ?

Sadly, I don't think it's very likely, but I do have a couple ways I think this could possibly happen!!

1. Gayatri

I don't really know if i should include this one but i think we'll definitely see some scenes with Pavitr and Gayatri!! I think we'll see her being a reason to challenge Miguel's canon theory, with all thats happening to Pavitr's universe right now. I'm reallyyy excited to see what they do with this in BTSV!!

As for new Gwen variants being introduced in BTSV i do have a couple ways this could happen ^_^

2. Background/unimportant Gwen variants

This one i think could happen while traveling through a bunch of alternate universes, possibly while fighting the Spot!! Singularly, each Gwen variant they see wouldn't matter all that much, but the Gwen variants as a whole always dying would!! I think it would be a cool thing to use, especially regarding the canon theory and how E-65 Gwen is such an outlier!!!

3. Meeting a singular new Gwen variant and not being able to save her

I have pretty conflicting feelings on this one, i'm not the biggest fan of E-65 Gwen confronting her variant's deaths on an individual scale. I think what really matters is how our Gwen is such an outlier and in EVERY other universe, she dies. (this is part of why im not exactly looking forward to her upcoming comic series) I hope this won't be what they chose to do, but the spiderverse writers are great at what they do and i think they could totally make it work!! I think it would be a great way to argue for Miguel's canon theory!!

4. Earth 42 Gwen Stacy

I have many reasons why this probably won't, and shouldn't happen, but i think its and interesting concept so im including it anyway!! It would be pretty cool if Miles G knew a Gwen similar to our own. I don't think Miles G would have any close friends, maybe he keeps his Gwen at a distance because of the prowler stuff. I think Miles G in BTSV will be pretty lonely character, keeping most of the people he cares about away from prowler stuff, and in turn away from him. We all know his Rio doesn't know about the prowler, and if he had a Gwen i think he would try to keep her out of it. it'd be cool if she found out anyway and gets involved despite what he wants.

Overall, it probably wont happen but I think I'll enjoy whatever they do in BTSV!!

edit now that ive found out its confirmed there will be important gwen variants in the btsv, im really hoping for the last theory!!

[whosmarinette]

I think at this point I might as well post my theory.

So where do the glitched out things go?

You know? When stuff starts glitching? Atoms don’t belong and stuff? And not only things, where did Gabriela O’Hara go?

“They cease to exist” I hear you say

“Bullshit” I say back

Physics is a great subject. I failed it in school, but it’s great nonetheless. And one simple rule of physics, the law that even most works of fiction, even fantasy tend to abide is the law of conservation of energy.

Things don’t disappear into nothing.

And there is something that even has been mentioned already in Spiderverse, established that it exists and functions, somewhere where things could go without creating collapses in physics as we know it.

HAMMERSPACE

In case y’all need a refresher on what hammerspace is, here’s a comic from the Wikipedia page for hammerspace that explains it better than I could

And when was this concept mentioned? Well, at least once, it was mentioned by the most cartoonish character - Peter Porker, aka, Spider-Ham. I don’t remember if he outright called it hammerspace, but he used it most prominently.

And what was his parting gift for Miles?

A GOD DAMN HAMMER THAT CAN FIT INTO HIS POCKET.

“But maybe it’s only Spider-Ham that uses hammerspace, to signify he is a classic cartoon!” Some of you say, thinking you are very smart

“Where do Hobie’s hair go when he wears his mask?” I ask, and none of y’all smarties can answer.

Spiderverse has established that hammerspace is something that, knowingly or not, basically every and any spider-person can access.

So we have a vast space, where things that basically need to be hidden, usually go, and we have things and people glitching out of existence. Isn’t it logical that those two things are connected?

Wouldn’t it be really fucking funny?

[pjshermann]

I am VERY normal about the parallels between the two Spiderverse movies, particularly about Miles and him always being an “anomaly”.

In ITSV when Miles and his dad are having their argument about Miles going to the new prep school, Miles talks about how this isn’t for him and how he wants to be among “the people” to which his dad says “these ARE your people” and Miles replies with “I’m only here because I won that stupid lottery”.

This parallels to him and the spider society in ASTV because Miles was never supposed to be Spider-Man, he only became Spider-Man because of a coincidence, because he was randomly bitten by that radioactive spider. He never fits in with the Spider Society, and he immediately is made to feel like and be an outcast. The same way he felt like he’d just been chosen randomly to be at a school he doesn’t fit in at, is the same way he now feels like he’d just been chosen randomly to be Spider-Man and he doesn’t fit in with the rest of the spidermen. In two situations, Miles is left feeling like an imposter and that he was never meant to be where he now is.

However, if we go back to the ITSV argument, Miles’ dad responds to Miles with “You passed the entrance exam just like everybody else”. Miles may feel like he is only an anomaly, but just as there was a reason (not a complete random chance) that he got into an elite prep school, there has got to be a real reason he ended up being Spider-Man, rather than just some screw-up or sheer coincidence. Especially with the way that radioactive spider seemed to be deliberately targeting him…hmmm

[deepestblizzardcomputer]

So, I Have been thinking. . .

Spoilers below

.

.

.

.

about this dude right here.

and why did he actually acted the way he did.

at first you would think this Miles is all evil cause of how cold he acts toward Miles's needing of help like he didn't 'care' but what if there was more behind his action? and even if he was evil as it seems what would be his motive, like what would he really benfit?

So, as it hinted in the first spider-verse movie, the comics that flips it pages actually shows you hints of how things would play out in the scenes.

The first page isn't clear who is speaking, it could be earth 42' Miles to Miles or Uncle Aaron, but the next one shows it our Miles answering to whatever Uncle Aron told him.

Am guessing it has to do something with killing a guy? But why is that you ask?

Simple, revenge. He still didn't kill the guy who killedchis brother. that's why he responded to Miles being meaning he was NOT a good person because his wound for his brother was still fresh and all he wanted was to HURT (or how it seemed for me) and as we see here,

it is now clear that 42' Miles is the one saying this to Miles, "you and I are going to take care of a bad guy. a real bad guy"

He wants his help, that's why he didn't want to let go off him just yet, with his abilities as 'spider-man' he would do them a lot of help much faster. if I am right, he wants Miles to help him take down his father's killer, by killing him, himself.

and of course, Miles would refuse for two reasons. one, our Miles's father's issue still unsolved and he would fear to be too late to save his father and two, he wouldn't let his other self do that. it was just wrong.

Which brings us to what these two would be disccusing in the next movie. Miles here asking genuinely what happened to this Miles to make him the way he is.

And am sure that will bring up a backstory of why he was doing this in first place. which will make Miles show his Empathy toward him saying he went through the same grief when he lost his uncle in his universe.

am guessing here 42' Miles would be curious of what did this Miles did when he knew and saw the murderer of his uncle to which Miles responded. (As i guess) that he ran away. (Which technically happened) as 42' Miles would respond with.

I am not sure if the one who killed Uncle Aaron would be the same person who murdered 42' Miles father but if that was the case, sheesh.

That would explain why this panel is here BEFORE the "you ran away?!" One

It could be the flashback of 1610' Miles.

42'Miles and uncle Aaron would possibly be confused of why didn't this Miles just kill the man since he had the chance since he was more powerful with his spider powers. to which again, Miles would probably responded with something along those lines, that real good people don't do that, it was wrong and he was just a kid.

How could he be able to murder somone that easily? he was sure the other Miles wouldn't be capable of such thing as well. (Maybe) he still had a caring heart and he wasn't completely evil.

(Which encourages the '42 Miles being Vigilante' theory)

If you look closely, there is an apparent saddnes in his eyes. a boy who lost alot of things. it might have been subtle but 42's Miles was actually relieved when he knew his father was alive somewhere.

But so why would he coldly dismiss Miles's help like that?

" If I don't get out, our dad is going to die—"

" your dad. "

he is actually distancing himself from hope. that out there somewhere, his father is safe and well. He doesn't want to feel this 'hope' even when he was relieved of that fact. He still wanted to keep those anguish feeling inside, to push him forward toward his revenge.

If 42' Miles let himself relax he might let his focus and motive slip out of his main target and he didn't want that.

My theory here, is they might get their epic fight but in some point they could reach to an understanding and help eachother in the end.

Again, if that the murderer who kill 42' Miles father, there could be a chance that they would find another collider in this universe, who knows?

Also, I have a feeling this 42's Earth doesn't have a spider-man but am going to get to that in the next post.

Also! Other panels that i am not sure where they actually are connected: (one of them could be Uncle Aaron speaking with 42's Miles thougj)

[coldgoldlazarus]

After rewatching Into the Spiderverse last week, and my third viewing of Across the Spiderverse this weekend, a bit of a crack theory has been percolating in my head. Some spoilers here, so putting this under a readmore:

I think Doc Ock has a chance of returning in Beyond The Spiderverse. A slim chance, but a chance nonetheless.

Point A: Lack Of Resolution

This is pretty obvious so I won't belabor it; despite her role as a pretty significant villain in ItSV, along with Kingpin and Prowler, the mind behind the supercollider and given a pretty fantastic reveal, she also winds up getting hit by a truck during the climax and not being heard from again. The Prowler died, Kingpin got defeated and webbed up for the police, even Tombstone was seen getting arrested and shoved in a cop car, and the other henchmen like Scorpion also got pretty conclusive defeats at the hands of the 2D spideys during the fight itself.

But with Liv, there's no real confirmation of what happened afterwards; whether she got arrested, or ran off, or the impact was fatal and her body recovered, or what; no clue. (And if she did end up shoved through the Collider and landed in another dimension, she'd be subject to the same glitching, cell decay, and eventual death as the others, without the Spider-society tech to stabilize herself.) And like, that doesn't necessarily mean anything on its own, but at the very least the principle of "didn't see the body" is in play.

(Interestingly, I remember hearing somewhere that there was a deleted scene of her intentionally jumping into the collider portal while saying the "power of the [X] in the palm of my hands!" line that later went to Spot. Though idk where I heard it, so am unsure if this is actually legit. And even if it is, it was still a scene they chose to remove from the final film, so while it could mean that intent is still there, they also could have changed their minds on the idea entirely.)

On its own, I'd be willing to accept that that's probably the last we've seen of her... but as of AtSV, it actually isn't.

Point B: Aaron Haunts The Narrative

This part has no direct connection to her, but bear with me here. If you've seen it, (I hope you have) you know that AtSV ends with the reveal that Miles wasn't sent to his home timeline/universe, but a darker parallel version where his dad is dead but Uncle Aaron is not, and is working with the parallel version of Miles as the Prowler. He does say "I'm not" when our Miles refers to him that way, but the impression I got is that he's halfway-retired from the role but still acting as support for Miles G; the "guy in the chair" if you will.

I digress. Point is, it ends with a return for both Uncle Aaron and the Prowler identity, but this didn't come out of nowhere; all throughout the movie leading up to this, Aaron and/or the Prowler are brought up or indirectly hinted at on an honestly pretty frequent basis. Gwen's drumming recap at the beginning, the memorial grafitti on the rooftop, the Donald Glover cameo, the flash of him on the side of the building during Miles' breakdown sequence as he's rushing to get home, plus a few smaller mentions here and there. ("He takes after his uncle!" during the meeting with the guidance councilor, and a visual comparison with Uncle Ben during the "canon events" presentation, and I feel like there may be a couple others yet that I'm forgetting as well.)

The movie goes out of its way to remind you of him and his importance to Miles at every turn, and part of that is just inherently because he is so important to Miles. But it also feels like, from a writer-to-audience perspective, part of the purpose is also as a reminder; if anyone either saw ItSV but forgot most of it in the intervening time, or simply missed it altogether and for some reason decided to see AtSV first anyway, this makes sure they know exactly who and what he is, so the reveal at the end carries the full emotional weight it needs to. No matter what, you will have the proper context to appreciate Miles' reaction when Aaron steps through that door.

(Also, I just wanna say that I love that reaction in of itself; the hyperventilating panic at first, only to rush in for a tight hug. The mix of terror and comfort that comes with full awareness of both sides of him, and all the associated memories both good and bad, combined with this unexpected chance to see him (or at least a version of him) again. It's just a really great moment on that front.)

But anyway, I'm getting off track again, too many Prowler feels. ^^; What does this have to do with Doc Ock?

Point C: Aaron Isn't Alone In Haunting

This is admittedly both the key part of my theory and also the weakest one overall, so I will readily admit upfront that I may be reading too much into things, and Liv really did bow out for good in ItSV. That being said, here's my thought:

Even if a much lesser extent than Aaron, I couldn't help but notice a similar-seeming trend of brief reminders of her. On one hand, most of these can be fairly easily dismissed as simply maintaining continuity and connection with the first movie, as the bulk of them were in relation to The Spot's backstory as Jonathan Ohm; she was there for the flashback to the misplaced 42 Spider, and then seen again in a framed photo of him, when Gwen was inspecting the remains of his makeshift apartment lab. So while it's a neat inclusion, it doesn't necessarily mean anything more, right? Kingpin got mentioned too, during the Guggenheim fight with Vulture, but I'm pretty sure he isn't going to be making a comeback.

But there is one other instance that feels a bit more significant and out of place, and is what led to this theory in the first place. I mentioned this scene already in relation to the Uncle Aaron foreshadowing/reminders, but going back to it now, there is what I've dubbed the Falling Apart sequence. (From the score that plays during it.) Right after Gwen's talk with her father resolves, we cut back to Miles, swinging through the city in a desperate rush to get back home to his parents in time. (Unaware yet that this isn't his city, his home, his parents, because this isn't his universe.)

Tangential Gushing Over That Scene

It's sort of a dark parallel to the Leap Of Faith/What's Up Danger scene from ItSV, with previous bits of dialogue and past moments echoing in his mind again. There, it was all the inspiration pushing him to finally take the leap and truly become Spiderman; whereas here it's reminders of all the stress and uncertainty he's under as he races against time and possibly destiny itself, not to mention being plagued by doubts after Miguel revealed he possibly shouldn't have become Spiderman to begin with.

But what I especially love is the animation of this sequence, which on first watch I thought was stuff actually happening, but reads more on subsequent viewings like hallucinations during what's basically a panic attack. It's both gorgeous and stressful, with trains derailing and rerailing to chase Miles; the space between the skyscrapers growing narrower and more claustrophobic; and stuff like the 42 Spider, the Spot's arms, and Doc Ock's tentacles also appear briefly to hem him in even further until the end. He finally breaks free at the end, with Aaron's dying words to "just keep going" pushing him to make it the rest of the way 'home' unimpeded, a tiny bit of much-needed catharsis amidst all the overwhelming... everything else.

I really love this scene, in case it wasn't obvious.

Point C, Continued: Why Tentacle Happen?

But to get back on track, nearly everything about this sequence is mainly focused on ideas introduced in Across; the Spot, Miguel, Jefferson's predicted demise. The Spider is from the first movie, but still given extra context now; the first big exception is the reuse of Spider-Ham's line about how "the hardest part of this job is that you can't always save everyone" while images of him, Noir, and Peni appear on the glass building Miles is swinging past. Even that is still relevant to the current crisis, and their appearance there is further justified when they too properly show up again in Gwen's 'band' at the very end.

But then there's this:

The dialogue at this point is a line from Rio; while the appearance of the tentacles definitely further intensifies the claustrophobic crush of the city, it also feels like much more of a non-sequitor than even the 2D Spideys just a few shots earlier. Liv has had nothing to do with anything going on, (or at most, very indirect involvement like the displacing of the 42 Spider) has no dialogue called back to here; and heck, even in ItSV felt more like a rival to Peter B specifically instead of being especially relevant to Miles, compared to Prowler and Kingpin. So why call back to her here? It could indeed just be that the tentacles are good for adding to that entrapped feeling, but given how well-constructed the rest of the sequence was, and how deliberate animation as a process is in general, this would seem oddly careless to include so casually.

Conclusion

On the whole, I'll still readily admit that this is a pretty flimsy bit of 'evidence' (more just symbolism, really) to base a whole theory off of. Yet still, between that part of the Falling Apart sequence, the parallels to how Aaron and Miles G were foreshadowed, Liv's abrupt disappearance and lack of closure in the first film, and the knowledge that this is the first half of a split script, with all sorts of other setup in Across still awaiting payoff in Beyond, I do kinda at least feel like there may be something here.

(At the same time, the docket is already packed with a shitton of stuff that Beyond needs to be able to address and resolve, plus apparently some additional new stuff mentioned in interviews like another Gwen, Toei Spiderman, and Hobie's universe. So with all that going on, I'm not entirely sure they'd have the room for yet another returning character in amidst literally everything else.)

So while I'm not strictly counting on this to come to pass, at least for now, the basic idea is that Doc Ock got hit by that truck, fell through the collider portal and into another universe, (probably Earth 42, possibly elsewhere we may have yet to visit) and somehow found a way to stabilize her glitching to survive during the intervening time, set to make a dramatic return appearance during Beyond.

As to what role she may play, I'm not sure. I could see her making some sort of temporary truce with one of the main Spider-people for a common goal, without giving up on her evil mad science in the long run. Possibly with Miguel's group against the Spot, in exchange for freedom to keep experimenting with the Multiverse instead of getting sent back home, though I also don't think he would be willing to make that bargain unless things are truly desparate and he's fully lost the support of the rest of the Spider Society. So it could also be with Gwen or Miles, against both the Spot and Miguel; the former's more unpredictable tampering and newly eldritch nature getting in the way of her research, while the latter would of course want to put an end to her experiements and send her back home in his efforts to restore order, giving her reason to ally against.

On the other hand, her remaining entirely villainous and antagonistic would also make a lot of sense, if not moreso. If she landed in Earth 42, she could wind up as the big obstacle of the detour instead of Miles G, allowing the latter a more nuanced and dynamic role. Alternately, I could possibly see her further experimentation being connected in some way to the destruction of the universe Miguel replaced himself in, unknowingly sending him on his canon-hardliner spiral, which would certainly give her a lot more relevance to the current conflict.

But ultimately, all of that depends on whether she really would show up again, which as neat as it would be, definitely does feel like a bit of a long shot at the moment. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[moralesmilesanhour]

Hi the Spiderverse Hyperfixation Guy is back with more Hyperfixation Thoughts

Okay so like. Is anyone weirded out by how similar Miguel's dimension falling apart looks to when a character is glitching out, or when stuff from other dimensions started appearing in Miles' New York in the first film?

I also wonder how Miguel was able to go all that time replacing his dead counterpart without glitching the way that literally everyone else does. Is it possible that he invented the watch originally for this purpose?

Idk something is afoot, y'all 😭