#source: Philip Norman

[omg-hellgirl]

Brian was very bright, and it was obvious that he and Mick didn’t get on at all. He tried to pull me a couple of times, but only to spite Mick. When it happened I can remember thinking, ‘This is ridiculous because you're half my size.’”

— Chrissie Shrimpton, Mick Jagger's ex-girlfriend.

[wonder-worker]

A central element of the myth of [Eleanor of Aquitaine] is that of her exceptionalism. Historians and Eleanor biographers have tended to take literally Richard of Devizes’s conventional panegyric of her as ‘an incomparable woman’ [and] a woman out of her time. […] Amazement at Eleanor’s power and independence is born from a presentism that assumes generally that the Middle Ages were a backward age, and specifically that medieval women were all downtrodden and marginalized. Eleanor’s career can, from such a perspective, only be explained by assuming that she was an exception who rose by sheer force of personality above the restrictions placed upon twelfth-century women.

-Michael R. Evans, Inventing Eleanor: The Medieval and Post-Medieval Image of Eleanor of Aquitaine

"...The idea of Eleanor’s exceptionalism rests on an assumption that women of her age were powerless. On the contrary, in Western Europe before the twelfth century there were ‘no really effective barriers to the capacity of women to exercise power; they appear as military leaders, judges, castellans, controllers of property’. […] In an important article published in 1992, Jane Martindale sought to locate Eleanor in context, stripping away much of the conjecture that had grown up around her, and returning to primary sources, including her charters. Martindale also demonstrated how Eleanor was not out of the ordinary for a twelfth-century queen either in the extent of her power or in the criticisms levelled against her.

If we look at Eleanor’s predecessors as Anglo-Norman queens of England, we find many examples of women wielding political power. Matilda of Flanders (wife of William the Conqueror) acted as regent in Normandy during his frequent absences in England following the Conquest, and [the first wife of Henry I, Matilda of Scotland, played some role in governing England during her husband's absences], while during the civil war of Stephen’s reign Matilda of Boulogne led the fight for a time on behalf of her royal husband, who had been captured by the forces of the empress. And if we wish to seek a rebel woman, we need look no further than Juliana, illegitimate daughter of Henry I, who attempted to assassinate him with a crossbow, or Adèle of Champagne, the third wife of Louis VII, who ‘[a]t the moment when Henry II held Eleanor of Aquitaine in jail for her revolt … led a revolt with her brothers against her son, Philip II'.

Eleanor is, therefore, less the exception than the rule – albeit an extreme example of that rule. This can be illustrated by comparing her with a twelfth century woman who has attracted less literary and historical attention. Adela of Blois died in 1137, the year of Eleanor’s marriage to Louis VII. […] The chronicle and charter evidence reveals Adela to have ‘legitimately exercised the powers of comital lordship’ in the domains of Blois-Champagne, both in consort with her husband and alone during his absence on crusade and after his death. […] There was, however, nothing atypical about the nature of Adela’s power. In the words of her biographer Kimberley LoPrete, ‘while the extent of Adela’s powers and the political impact of her actions were exceptional for a woman of her day (and indeed for most men), the sources of her powers and the activities she engaged in were not fundamentally different from those of other women of lordly rank’. These words could equally apply to Eleanor; the extent of her power, as heiress to the richest lordship in France, wife of two kings and mother of two or three more, was remarkable, but the nature of her power was not exceptional. Other noble or royal women governed, arranged marriages and alliances, and were patrons of the church. Eleanor represents one end of a continuum, not an isolated outlier."

[factcheckingmclennon]

john's princess: fact or fiction

you've read it in fics, you've seen people quote it, but did the apple staff/others REALLY call paul john's princess?

well...

let's dig into it!

this one comes from two asks- one over on my main and one here!

there's actually several sources on this one!

the first one i'll bring up is from francie schwartz. she is, btw, a notoriously terrible source and that's why i'm getting her out of the way first. she like really openly dislikes paul & you should take a lot of what she says with a grain of salt. however, she does call him john's princess.

here's the full page (of many) from her november 1969 piece in rolling stone called "memories of an apple girl"

and the interesting bit in question:

"John and Paul can shoot looks at each other and exchange thoughts. John, full of Da Vinci-esque chutzpah and Lewis Carroll whimsy and Joycean logic, projects authority, sovereignty. Can you dig that Paul is his princess? Paul giggles. John smiles like Oedipus."

the second source is from john lennon: the life by philip norman (2008) where he says this:

"Indeed, John's anger was more that of an ex-spouse than ex-colleague, reinforcing a suspicion already in Yoko's mind that his feelings for Paul had been far more intense than the world at large had ever guessed. From chance remarks he had made, she gathered there had even been a moment when—on the principle that bohemians should try everything—he had contemplated an affair with Paul, but had been deterred by Paul's immovable heterosexuality. Nor, apparently, was Yoko the only one to have picked up on this. Around Apple, in her hearing, Paul would sometimes be called John's Princess."

(pg. 668-69)

and the last one (updated now bc someone did indeed have the screenshot you're a lifesaver i'm kissing your feet etc)

but! here's the quote! from apple insiders:

"With Yoko ever present, Paul McCartney's reign as Lennon's princess was doomed."

apple to the core: the unmaking of the beatles by peter mccabe & robert d. schonfeld (1972) pg. 107

so while none of these Alone would be enough for me to think it was a thing that happened often, i think the second quote from norman saying yoko heard him being called "john's princess" is backed up by francie calling him that herself AND the quote from apple to the core

this is a situation of "a bunch of mediocrely reliable sources coming together to make one big reliable source given their agreement on the same subject"

[menlove]

now i'm curious .. why do you think john was gay?

disclaimer: this is not bi erasure & if anyone tries to start discourse w me about that i do not careeeee sorry. i care deeply abt bi erasure but he never labeled his own sexuality & as a figure of the past it's more than fair to speculate that when he talked abt his attraction to women it was from the pov of a gay man dealing w comphet. if he were alive today and saying he was bisexual i'd leave it alone but he's not so i'm not. sexuality can absolutely be fluid! and he very well may have been bisexual! this is just my personal theory & interpretation of things he's said through the lens of viewing him as a gay man. MOVING ON.

i need you to imagine all of this to the benny hill theme. let's go

with the beatles by alistair taylor pg. 98 (at least in the pdf copy i have- there's no actual page numbers so it might not match up exactly if you have the print copy)

and from the same book like a paragraph down- this one is not AS crazy bc there's a million explanations but also not being able to get it up for the one woman you've fantasized about forever...... oh brother

in a description of an auctioned off audio tape:

this :|

this from JOOOOAN BAEZ. JOAN BAEZ.

(source)

"It’s a plus, it’s not a minus. The plus is that your best friend, also, can hold you without… I mean, I’m not a homosexual, or we could have had a homosexual relationship and maybe that would have satisfied it, with working with other male artists."

this infamous quote (source from the wonderful @amoralto who is a great resource for beatles archiving)

"He was completely open and uninhibited with her, as she learned to be with him, owning up to his deepest sexual fantasies—like one of making love to a woman in her eighties, or even older, whose veined and wrinkled hands would be covered in diamonds. Over time, she became accustomed to his particular style of backhanded compliment. 'Do you know why I like you?' he remarked on one occasion. 'It’s because you look like a bloke in drag. You’re like a mate.' Yoko laughingly replied that she thought he must be 'a closet fag.'"

john lennon: the life by philip norman (take him w a grain of salt. also the doc i have for this one is html so i truly would have 0 clue on what page number this would be) BUT this is also corroborated by a yoko quote herself in a 1981 new york magazine interview

no, no, no by yoko ono which. what do i even need to say.

"I remember it, vaguely. I was out of me mind with drink – when you get down to the point where you drink all the empty glasses, that drunk. And he was saying, 'Well, come on, John, tell us,' something like that, 'Tell me about you and Brian, we all know,' like that. And obviously, I must have been un– uh, f– frightened of the fag in me to get so angry at that. You know, when you’re twenty-one, you want to be a man, and all that. And for the first time I thought, 'I could kill this guy.' I just saw it, like on a screen, that if I hit him once more, I – that’s gonna be it."

this other infamous quote uploaded in an audio by @amoralto (source)

"John believed in my work as an artist wasn’t accepted in part because I am a woman. He got angry when people said about me, 'She’s not a woman, she’s a female impersonator.' John said to me, 'If I had been gay and gotten together with a guy who was talented like you, after ten years that guy would have become famous as an artist in his own right. Maybe we should come out and say, 'Actually, Yoko is a guy.' Maybe that will do it!' That made him laugh a lot. John learned about women’s oppression from me, but I learned a lot about men’s vulnerability from him. He expressed his vulnerability, unlike a lot of other men. I learned that it’s not just men oppressing women. Men also suffer, they feel fear and guilt. For example, I thought the fact that men buy prostitutes was terrible. It filled me with indignation. But John explained it differently. 'It’s humiliating for a guy to buy a whore,' he told me. 'It’s proof that he’s rejected, he’s just so desperate.' I had never thought of that: for me who go to prostitutes, sex is connected to being rejected and humiliated. I always hated people who committed sex crimes, but through John I tuned in to their pain. John told me that it was unfortunate for the poor guy whose sexual preference was a crime and something to be feared. John’s perspective was, 'I’m lucky I’m normal.'"

yoko interview with jon wiener in come together: john lennon in his time. just..... whatever the hell is going on here.

interview w lisa robinson in hit parader "a conversation with john lennon" 1975

"With his four months’ greater experience, Sheridan was an ideal guide to the Reeperbahn’s more exotic diversions, like the Schwülen laden. Stu Sutcliffe later wrote home in amazement that the transvestites were 'all harmless and very young' and it was actually possible to speak to one 'without shuddering.' Though raised amid the same homophobia as his companions, John seemed totally unshocked by St. Pauli’s abundant drag scene; indeed, he often seemed actively to seek it out. 'There was one particular club he used to like,' Tony Sheridan remembers, 'full of these big guys with hairy hands, deep voices—and breasts. But they used to make an effort to talk English. There was something about the place that seemed to make John feel at home.'"

another from john lennon: the life so take it w a grain of salt

so many excerpts from skywriting by word of mouth

and more!

and thats all i'm hunting down for now but he also like Continuously went on and on and and on and ON about how his relationship w yoko worked bc she was so much like a man/mate/what have you

[bambi-kinos]

I just finished Philip Norman's biography of John, and I was left with the impression that John was almost ridiculously insecure all throughout his life. I've only just begun a deep dive into the Beatles beginning six months ago. Would you say that Norman's portrayal of John's insecurities is accurate, or exaggerated?

First of all it should be understood that Philip Norman is a company man. He does not write biographies that are records of real events + his personal analysis/thoughts and feelings of the subject. Norman receives assignments from his publisher or sponsor, in this case Yoko Ono, and then he writes what he is told to write. Philip Norman is otherwise a very hateful person that is not capable of the critical, skeptical, but also sympathetic eye that is required of a good biographer. If you want an example of a good John biography then the closest you will get is The Making of John Lennon by Francis Kenny. Kenny examines John's life and beliefs in the historical context of Liverpool, where Kenny himself grew up, and then talks about how he believes this influenced John's direction in life.

Once you compare this and other sources to Phil Norman you start seeing what a mouthpiece he is. Yoko Ono wanted to tell a specific story about John and she ensured that happened. Norman does have occasional flashes of insight but then retreats into boomer jean jacket bullshit like when he desperately buries May Pang during the section on The Lost Weekend, because Yoko needed to minimize May's role as it made Yoko looks remarkably awful in comparison. John suffered immensely as a result of being partnered to Yoko and May Pang is a blatant demonstration of how quite literally anyone else would have been a better choice for him. The Norman biography was one of Yoko's desperate attempts to cover this up. It is only recently that the people who still love John have been able to start fighting back like May getting her documentary out.

When it comes to John Lennon himself: "insecure" is a good word for it, yes. John was fought over as a status marker from pretty much the moment he was born. His mother was unable or unwilling to invest in him and happily abandoned him for years at a time; his father was too cowardly to make a stand as a father and take care of him properly, preferring to run around in a perpetual midlife crisis for decades; his aunts including Mimi hated his mother Julia and only took John in as a way to get back at her since Julia was the golden child of their family; Mimi Smith had very mixed feelings about John that she often took out on him; and then John catapulted into the viper's nest that is the entertainment industry which is tailor made to destroy people like him. Pick any celebrity that has gone off the rails and self destructed in public and you will find someone with a similar upbringing that tried to find consolation by becoming a public figure.

John had a massive sucking hole in his chest after a life time of being used and betrayed and shuffled around as a chess piece by his own flesh and blood. It is not overstating the issue to say the only people in the entire world who loved John for being John were the other Beatles and Brian Epstein. That marked him and left him perpetually frightened and paranoid of everyone around him. It's no wonder John was a basket case.

Norman's portrayal of John is 'accurate' in that it at least it chronologically lays out the events of John's life. These are a matter of public record so it's hard to fuck that up. The primary issue with Norman is the same issue with pretty much all of John's biographies: Yoko Ono has her fist so far up the writer's ass that you can see her fingers moving every time a word goes down on a page. You can get a lot of interesting detail out of Norman (like Tim being a lost Persian that followed John home) but everything in John's life is framed through Yoko's lens. And she despises Paul and hates The Beatles. As far as I'm concerned Philip Norman's book is just another hit job against everyone who actually loved John (and notably Yoko was not one of those people.) Therefore I cannot recommend it to anyone.

The problem is that there is no real credible John biography yet. Maybe after Yoko passes away and Sean decides that he doesn't have to defend the indefensible anymore. When it does happen, Paul is going to have to step very firmly on the back of the author's neck to make sure that no Yoko worship happens inside the book and that John is portrayed fairly.

[idontwanttospoiltheparty]

I don't know how best to share it. But the strongest evidence is probably the paraphrased quote from the Norman book that you've referenced in the past. Where she suggests that John must have had feelings for Paul. (https://mclennonanthology.tumblr.com/post/77393769824/from-chance-remarks-he-had-made-she-gathered). Like, it's McLennon evidence. But it's also her speculation, not coming from John or Paul. Then there's the audio diaries. The part that gets quotes all the time is the part where she says Paul would be competition for her. But, in context, she doesn't really say it in a jealous way. She says it after a long monologue about how much she likes him and how she hopes he likes her, not for herself, but "because she belongs to John." She also talks about how she vibes with him way more than George and Ringo. (I couldn't find a good transcript but this one from a Yoko hate site ☹️is ok https://yuckfoko.livejournal.com/22933.html) Then there's the oft quoted bit of the Sheff interview where John is trying to talk about how normal his relationships with Yoko and Paul are and Yoko's the one suggesting that people might have found John and Paul abnormally close (https://www.tumblr.com/amoralto/57260485982/august-1980-playboy-writer-david-sheff-questions)! And there's the bit of Sticky Fingers where Wenner claims that Yoko walks around telling everyone that John was gay and Hagen claims she also tried to convince Paul of this theory! (https://www.tumblr.com/amoralto/180893176242/the-wenners-moved-to-the-west-side-of-manhattan-in?source=share). Heck, she's one of the core purveyors of the "Paul was John's princess" idea!

That's all the super McLennon-specific evidence. But there's also tons of evidence that she was very fascinated by John's sexuality overall. There's the 1981(!) interview with Philip Norman where she claims she used to call John a "closet fag" to his face. (https://amoralto.tumblr.com/post/69790080940/i-used-to-say-to-him-i-think-youre-a-closet). She's possibly referencing John when she sings "You're thinking of Rock Hudson when we do it" in No No No. And another paraphrased quote from her that Norman used in John Lennon: A Life is the quote where she's claiming John said it would hurt her less if he slept with a man (and that he thought David Spinozza was hot) (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-11785347/Inside-John-Lennon-Yoko-Onos-life-New-York-City-moves-Dakota-building.html). There's also the fact that Goldman makes endless references to Marnie Hair telling him Yoko gossiped about John and Brian a ton. Plus, she's the one confirming John was bi decades after his death in the 2015 interview. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/13/yoko-ono-i-still-fear-lennon-s-killer.html) I'm not saying her statements aren't evidence of John's actual queerness. I think they are. She was his wife, she knew him well. But they are also evidence that she spent (and has spent since he died) a lot of time thinking about his sexuality and seems to revel in the idea that he was queer as much as any tumblr shipper. If I want to get super speculative, I would even point to the fact that John seemed to play up his "Oscar Wilde side" when he was around her at times, and a plausible explanation is that he did it because she found it attractive.

Which makes sense when we note that Yoko has dated other queer men. Most notably Sam Havadtoy. And, in that 1968 audio diary, talks about her suspicion that certain gay men are "as attracted to her as they can be."

I don't know. I started thinking about this when you mentioned that the most concrete evidence we have for John's queerness and McLennon comes from Yoko. And then I started realizing how much of the stronger evidence comes from Yoko. And it really does start to seem like she's acting similarly to how many shippers do

Yup lol!!! I agree with this, for the most part. It's kind of crazy to me when I see people painting Yoko as having been two-dimensionally homophobic for shipping reasons when the truth appears to be so much stranger and more complicated than that.

Thank you so much for compiling this!!

I also just remembered the "boat called Paul" quote comes from Yoko and I think she also expressed to Norman that she found it weird that John was treating her like Stu by writing her letters.

It's genuinely bonkers how much of our theories trace back to her.

[undying-love]

Hi, I'm a fan of you, your posts here and how and what you write about McLennon. I'd like to know when you became a fan of the Beatles and how did you end up here. How and when did you become a shipper/truther. I am too, sh't I'm deep in. And ofcourse it'd be interesting to know your views on this messed up ship. I especially like that you, like me, see that it wasn't one sided. I'm totally crazy about them, The Beatles, solo/post Beatle and Well, I truly love all four of them, but because I'm really a Ringo fan girl, I adore him to this day, he's so handsome still and lovely, in his very Ringo way I understand why they ll got along with him so well but that's why I haven't noticed this I think, but now I'm obsessed and I can't unsee it even if I try. I'm still quite bit shy about it so that's why I write anonymously If you don't wanna answer I understand and it's ok. I'm still a fan!

Hello there <3! Thanks for your question! I actually became a Beatles fan back in 2022. After I got into their music, I also became obsessed with their history and began researching a lot about how the band started, how they developed, and how they ended. But the thing was that I never really understood their whole breaukup thing. I always felt like there had to be more to their story than they were telling us. I saw an interview where they asked Paul about this, and he replied, "We had to find women, which we all sort of did." And I was like, What the hell is he talking about? (He also seemed a bit uneasy when answering the question). Then I read that John got married a week after Paul did, and I found that very odd. Then I watched Get Back, and their chemistry onscreen was shocking. The way they would look at each other, the inside jokes, the flirting, and the, "it's like you and me are lovers" bit all made me think that there must have been something going on between these two. Then I read some excerpts from Philip Norman's book, John Lennon: The Life, which confirmed that John was indeed attracted to Paul, although it said that Paul did not reciprocate his feelings (he was supposedly an "inmmobable heterosexual"). So I thought that maybe the problem was that John wanted to have more than a friendship with Paul and that Paul rejected him. I held this view for quite some time, until I started reading a lot about Paul. The way he talks about John—as well as the way he always brings up him out of nowhere in interviews—made me realize that it's extremely unlikely that Paul didn't also have romantic feelings for John. I recently made a compilation of insane things Paul has said about John, and there is no way someone would say all of this unless they are in love. Besides, it's been more than 40 years since John's death, and Paul admitted that he still hasn't gotten over it. If this was a mere friendship, I don't think he would have been that emotionally attached to John throughout all these years. Also, if John had been in love with Paul all along, it's very unlikely that he would have waited in 1967 to make a move.

Finally, by total chance, I became acquainted with someone who has recently been in contact with a few people who were once close to the Beatles, and they all have said that they knew there was something going on between John and Paul based on many things they had seen. And the things they said all matched up perfectly with things I have read from other sources. So that pretty much confirmed it for me. However, I still don't know for sure why John and Paul broke up, but I have my theories. It's possible that John wanted something more open and serious, and Paul, who is very conscious of their public image, didn't want that. When John said, "It's a plus that your best friend can also hold you without…" and then he didn't complete the sentence, maybe he meant that it's good that his best friend and him could hold hands without the world creating a whole drama over it. Paul was always very worried about what the public might think, so that definitely caused tensions between him and John, who was much more bold. Paul wasn't ready for that. Also, Paul wanted a normal family life, which is something John said during an interview when he was asked about the differences between him and Paul that caused their relationship to sour. He said, “Paul always wanted a family life. Linda knows this and has given it to him. The complete family life”. This is an odd answer because why would Paul wanting a "complete family life" damage their relationship? It would only make sense because, obviously, with John, he couldn't have a traditional family life. All this is speculation, but it's what I have in mind so far, based on all the information I have compiled.

I apologize that this got too long, but I wanted to to give you a thorough answer. Thanks again for your question. I'm glad you are a fan of my posts. It means a lot to me <3

[camlannpod]

Just wanted to say, I absolutely adored the podcast and am currently on my first relisten of it now that it's all complete! <3 Loved the music, the characters, the voice acting; everything was fantastic from start to finish!!

I have to ask.. any recommendations for books inspired by Welsh mythology? Alternatively, are there any books you might recommend that would fill the Camlann-sized hole in my heart? 👀

Hello hello! Thank you so much for the kind words, I'm so glad you enjoyed the series!

Specifically books inspired by, rather than books that are - so I'm going to recommend you some fiction:

Spear by Nicola Griffiths, which specifically explores queer themes in urban fantasy Arthuriana, and uses a lot of Welsh inspiration

Mary Stewart's Merlin Trilogy (it's great and iconic, though mostly uses Norman sources)

The Pendragon Cycle by Stephen R Lawhead, which is a great classic high fantasy series, though has a slightly abrupt ending due to publishing drama.

The Owl Service by Alan Garner - this is a YA novel but does use the Mabinogi as a direct source!

Here Lies Arthur by Philip Reeve. It's a YA novel but one of my absolute favourites, and very much displays Arthur as deeply flawed, as well as including some subtle queer themes.

The Magician Trilogy by Jenny Nimmo, these are childrens books but also the most heavily inspired by Welsh mythology I know.

I hope this helps! And thank you so much again for listening to the show!

[i-am-the-oyster]

Hi oyster could you tell me more about the apple executives calling Paul names like “Johns princess” ?and also I’m not sure if it was yoko who said this but I heard someone say that the other names were pretty mean and 100 times worse that “Johns princess”. Thank you !

Thanks for the question anon!

According Philip Norman* (in John Lennon: The Life) Yoko told him that she heard Apple staff calling Paul "John's princess". (Not Apple executives, I think that would be quite different.)

In fact, Paul's girlfriend Francie Schwartz called Paul John's princess in print in 1969. Francie was staff at Apple for a while, so I guess that proves that. (Though it doesn't say anything about how widespread it was.)

As to your second point: I know I've read that too, but I cannot remember where. Can anyone help us out with that?

* I only know this book from quotes on tumblr. I haven't read it, and don't intend to. This book is also the source for the rehearsal tape “with John's voice calling out 'Paul…Paul…' in a strangely subservient pleading way"

[ultraericthered]

Favorite Takes - Marvel/Spider-Man

Where I cite my personal favorite non-source material (so film, TV, and video games only) adaptations of some comic book characters.

Peter Parker/Spider-Man

Insomniac Games (Yuri Lowenthal)

Marvel VS Capcom (Josh Keaton)

Spider-Man 90's Animated Series (Christopher Daniel Barnes)

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Josh Keaton)

Marvel's Spider-Man (Robbie Daymond)

Sony/MCU (Tobey Maguire, Andrew Garfield, and Tom Holland)

NOTE: And the Spider-Men voiced by Paul Soles, Dan Gilvezan, Ted Schwartz, Rino Romano, Neil Patrick Harris, Chris Edgerly, James Arnold Taylor, Mike Vaughn, Mike Kelley, Sam Reigel, Sean Chiplock, Griffin Burns, Jake Johnson, and Hudson Thames are all contenders.

Mary Jane Watson

Insomniac Games (Laura Bailey)

Sam Raimi Trilogy (Kirsten Dunst)

MCU (Zendaya Coleman)

MTV Spider-Man New Animated Series (Lisa Loeb)

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Vanessa Marshall)

Marvel Rising (Tara Strong) and Marvel's Spider-Man (Felicia Day)

NOTE: Other fine MJs are Andrea Taylor in the Ultimate Spider-Man video game, Dana Seltzer in Web of Shadows, Laura Vandervoort in Edge Of Time, Quinn Ljoka in Marvel Avengers Academy, and Zoe Kravitz in Into The Spiderverse. Kari Wahlgren also did a decent Kirsten Dunst in the Spider-Man 3 video game, and Erika Harlacher Stone was spot on casting for her in Spider-Geddon, albeit wasted.

Gwen Stacy

Marvel's Spider-Man (Laura Bailey)

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Lacey Chabert)

Spiderverse Trilogy (Hailee Steinfeld)

Marvel Rising (Dove Cameron)

Mark Webb Duology (Emma Stone)

Sam Raimi Trilogy (Bryce Dallas Howard)

NOTE: Yeah, Laura Bailey is Best MJ AND Best Gwen! And the only other Gwens I think come close to contending with these ones would be the ones voiced by Mary Kay Bergman and Ashley Johnson.

Harry Osborn

Sam Raimi Trilogy (James Franco)

The Spectacular Spider-Man (James Arnold Taylor)

MTV Spider-Man New Animated Series (Ian Ziering)

Marvel's Spider-Man (Max Mittelman)

Insomniac Games (Scott Porter, Graham Philips)

Mark Webb Duology (Dane Dehaan)

NOTE: Shout out to Josh Keaton and Kevin Dorman here too!

J. Jonah Jameson

Sam Raimi Trilogy (JK Simmons)

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Daran Norris)

Spider-Man 90's Animated Series (Ed Asner)

Marvel's Spider-Man (Bob Joles)

Insomniac Games (Darin De Paul)

Edge Of Time (Fred Tatasciore)

NOTE: Paul Kligman, William Woodson, Richard Newman, Dee Bradley Baker, and Chris Edgerly also did some respectable Jonahs.

Flash Thompson

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Josh LeBarr)

Spider-Man 90's Animated Series (Patrick Labyorteaux)

MTV Spider-Man New Animated Series (Devon Edward Sawa)

Marvel's Spider-Man (Ben Diskin)

Mark Webb Duology (Chris Zylka)

MCU (Tony Revolori)

Betty Brant

Sam Raimi Trilogy (Elizabeth Banks)

MCU (Angourie Rice)

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Grey Griffin)

Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes (Grey Griffin)

Spider-Man Cartoon (Peg Dixon)

Liz Allan

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Alanna Ulbach)

MCU (Laura Harrier)

Marvel's Spider-Man (Natalie Lander)

Spider-Man 90s Animated Series (Marla Rubinoff)

George Stacy

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Clancy Brown)

Spiderverse Trilogy (Shea Whigham)

Mark Webb Duology (Dennis Leary)

Sam Raimi Trilogy (James Cromwell)

Marvel Rising (Steven Weber)

May Parker

Sam Raimi Trilogy (Rosemary Harris)

Spiderverse Trilogy (Lily Tomlin)

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Deborah Strang)

Insomniac Games (Nancy Linari)

Marvel's Spider-Man (Nancy Linari)

Mark Webb Duology (Sally Fields) and MCU (Marisa Tomei)

Miles Morales

Spiderverse Trilogy (Shamiek Moore)

Insomniac Games (Nadji Jeter)

Marvel's Spider-Man (Nadji Jeter)

Ultimate Spider-Man (Donald Glover, Ogie Banks)

Marvel Avengers Academy (Brandon James Winckler)

NOTE: I'm not OK with the casting of that last one, though. Why???

Norman Osborn/The Green Goblin

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Alan Rachins, Steve Blum)

Sam Raimi Trilogy + MCU (Willem Dafoe)

Marvel's Spider-Man (Josh Keaton)

Spider-Man 90s Animated Series (Neil Ross)

Insomniac Games (Mark Rolston) and The Black Order (Steve Blum)

LEGO Marvel (Nolan North, Josh Keaton)

NOTE: Steven Weber in Ultimate Spider-Man was a decent Norman but an awful Goblin, while Len Carlson, Dennis Marks, and Sam Vincent all did good Green Goblins but weren't really Normans.

Otto Octavius/Doctor Octopus

Sam Raimi Trilogy + MCU (Alfred Molina)

Insomniac Games and The Black Order (William Salyers)

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Peter Macnicol)

Marvel's Spider-Man (Scott Menville)

Spider-Man 90's Animated Series (Efrem Zimbalist Jr.)

Universal Studios Ride (Rodger Bumpass)

NOTE: Olivia Octavius isn't included here since this is just for Otto. Vernon Chapman, Cam Clarke, Joe Alaskey, Charlie Adler, Tom Kenny, Kyle Hebert, and Dee Bradley Baker were also good Ottos.

Venom

Spider-Man 90's Animated Series (Hank Azaria)

Marvel's Spider-Man (Ben Diskin, Ben Pronsky)

Insomniac Games (Tony Todd)

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Ben Diskin)

Spider-Man PS1 (Daran Norris) and Sony/MCU (Tom Hardy)

Web of Shadows (Keith Szarabajka) and Sam Raimi Trilogy

NOTE: Brian Drummond was also a top tier Venom voice. Shame the Venom/Eddie Brock he was voicing had to be such trash.

Eddie Brock

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Ben Diskin)

Ultimate Spider-Man Game (Daniel Capallero)

Sony/MCU (Tom Hardy)

Sam Raimi Trilogy (Topher Grace)

Spider-Man 90's Animated Series (Hank Azaria)

Spider-Man PS1 (Daran Norris)

NOTE: Ben Pronsky's Eddie was alright too, but he was disposable.

The Lizard

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Dee Bradley Baker)

Spider-Man 90's Animated Series (Joseph Campanella)

MTV Spider-Man New Animated Series (Rob Zombie)

Insomniac Games (Mark Whitten)

Mark Webb Duology + MCU (Rhys Ifans)

The Sandman

The Spectacular Spider-Man (John DiMaggio)

Shattered Dimensions (Dimitri Diatchenko)

Sam Raimi Trilogy + MCU (Thomas Hayden Church)

The Black Order (Richard Epcar)

Spider-Man & His Amazing Friends (Chris Latta)

The Rhino

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Clancy Brown)

Spider-Man 90's Animated Series (Don Stark)

Sam Raimi Trilogy Video Games (John DiMaggio, Steve Blum)

Insomniac Games (Fred Tatasciore)

Web Of Shadows (Fred Tatasciore)

Electro

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Crispin Freeman)

Insomniac Games (Josh Keaton)

Ultimate Spider-Man (Christopher Daniel Barnes)

Mark Webb Duology + MCU (Jamie Foxx)

MTV Spider-Man New Animated Series (Ethan Embry)

The Vulture

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Robert Englund)

Sam Raimi Trilogy Video Games (Dwight Schultz)

MCU (Michael Keaton)

Marvel's Spider-Man (Alastair Duncan)

Insomniac Games (Dwight Schultz)

NOTE: Gillie Fenwick, Paul Soles, Don Messick, Christopher Tabori, Brian George and Steve Blum also deserve acknowledgement here.

Mysterio

Spider-Man Cartoon and Spider-Man 80's Animated Series (Chris Wiggins, Michael Rye and Peter Cullen).

MCU (Jake Gyllenthal)

Shattered Dimensions (David Kaye)

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Xander Berkley)

Spider-Man 90's Animated (Gregg Berger)

NOTE: Also mesmerizing as Mysterio were Daran Norris, Dee Bradley Baker, James Arnold Taylor, Robin Atkins Downes, Greg Baldwin, and Crispin Freeman.

Hobgoblin

Spider-Man 90's Animated Series (Mark Hamill)

Marvel Superhero Adventures (Andrew Francis)

Universal Studios Ride (Patrick Fraley)

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Courtney B. Vance)

Shattered Dimensions (Steve Blum)

NOTE: Marvel's Spider-Man barely counts for this, as it was just Harry and Norman respectively wearing a phony superhero identity.

Scorpion

Sam Raimi Trilogy Video Games (Michael McColl, Dee Bradley Baker)

Insomniac Games (Jason Spisak)

Spider-Man 90's Animated Series (Martin Landau, Richard Moll)

Marvel's Spider-Man (Jason Spisak)

Ultimate Spider-Man (Dante Basco, Eric Bauza)

The Chameleon

Spider-Man 90's Animated Series (N/A)

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Steve Blum)

Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends (Hans Conried)

Mark Webb Duology Video Games (Glenn Steinbaum)

Marvel's Spider-Man (Patton Oswald)

Kraven the Hunter

Shattered Dimensions (Jim Cummings) and Insomniac Games (Jim Pirri)

Marvel's Spider-Man (Troy Baker)

MTV Spider-Man New Animated (Michael Dorn)

Spider-Man 90's Animated Series and Ultimate Spider-Man (Gregg Berger and Diedrich Bader)

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Eric Vesbit)

Black Cat

Insomniac Games (Erica Lindbeck)

Spider-Man 90's Animated Series (Jennifer Hale)

The Spectacular Spider-Man (Tricia Helfer)

Sam Raimi Trilogy Video Games (Holly Fields)

Mark Webb Duology Video Games (Ali Hillis)

NOTE: Audrey Wasilewski, Katee Sachkhoff, Grey Griffin, Mel Gorsha, and Erika Harlacher Stone were also contenders here.

Michael Morbius

Spider-Man 90's Animated Series (Nick Jameson)

Sony/MCU (Jared Leto)

Ultimate Spider-Man (Ben Diskin)

Sam Raimi Trilogy Games (Sean Donnellan)

Marvel Superhero Squad (Tom Kenny)

Wilson Fisk/The Kingpin

MCU (Vincent D'onofrio)

Sony Daredevil 2003/MTV Spider-Man New Animated Series (Michael Clarke Duncan)

Spider-Man 90's Animated Series (Roscoe Lee Brown)

The Punisher Video Game (David Sobolov)

Raimi Trilogy Video Game (Bob Joles)

Insomniac Games (Travis Willingham) and The Black Order (Tim Blaney)

NOTE: Tom Harvey, Stan Jones, Stephen Stanton, Gregg Berger, Jim Cummings and JB Blanc also gave commendable takes on Fisk that worked for the iterations they were playing. Sorry to say, Spiderverse fans, but Liev Schreiber's Kingpin does nothing for me.

Doctor Doom

Marvel Ultimate Alliance (Clive Revill)

90's Animated Marvel (Neil Ross, Simon Templeman, Tom Kane, Ross Marquand)

Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes (Lex Lang)

Marvel VS Capcom (Paul Dobson)

Disney Marvel Animation and The Black Order (Maurice LeMarche)

The Fantastic Four '94 film (Joseph Culp)

Spider-Man 80's Animated Series (Ralph James)

NOTE: Henry Ramer, Freddy Stebbin, Charlie Adler, Fred Tatasciore, Travis Willingham, and Grahama McTavish are also good Dooms.

[pleasantlyinsincere]

I like that Philip Norman's sources are basically Philip Norman books. 🙃

[omg-hellgirl]

But I did get on very well with his brother, Chris, who at that time was mostly away at school. We were the two Chrisses, the younger siblings of the more successful older ones.

— Chrissie Shrimpton, Mick Jagger's ex-girlfriend.

[nem0c]

Vietnam War - Galaxy Science Fiction Magazine, June 1968

Sourced from: http://natsmusic.net/articles_galaxy_magazine_viet_nam_war.htm

Transcript Below

We the undersigned believe the United States must remain in Vietnam to fulfill its responsibilities to the people of that country.

Karen K. Anderson, Poul Anderson, Harry Bates, Lloyd Biggle Jr., J. F. Bone, Leigh Brackett, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Mario Brand, R. Bretnor, Frederic Brown, Doris Pitkin Buck, William R. Burkett Jr., Elinor Busby, F. M. Busby, John W. Campbell, Louis Charbonneau, Hal Clement, Compton Crook, Hank Davis, L. Sprague de Camp, Charles V. de Vet, William B. Ellern, Richard H. Eney, T. R. Fehrenbach, R. C. FitzPatrick, Daniel F. Galouye, Raymond Z. Gallun, Robert M. Green Jr., Frances T. Hall, Edmond Hamilton, Robert A. Heinlein, Joe L. Hensley, Paul G. Herkart, Dean C. Ing, Jay Kay Klein, David A. Kyle, R. A. Lafferty, Robert J. Leman, C. C. MacApp, Robert Mason, D. M. Melton, Norman Metcalf, P. Schuyler Miller, Sam Moskowitz, John Myers Myers, Larry Niven, Alan Nourse, Stuart Palmer, Gerald W. Page, Rachel Cosgrove Payes, Lawrence A. Perkins, Jerry E. Pournelle, Joe Poyer, E. Hoffmann Price, George W. Price, Alva Rogers, Fred Saberhagen, George O. Smith, W. E. Sprague, G. Harry Stine (Lee Correy), Dwight V. Swain, Thomas Burnett Swann, Albert Teichner, Theodore L. Thomas, Rena M. Vale, Jack Vance, Harl Vincent, Don Walsh Jr., Robert Moore Williams, Jack Williamson, Rosco E. Wright, Karl Würf.

We oppose the participation of the United States in the war in Vietnam.

Forrest J. Ackerman, Isaac Asimov, Peter S. Beagle, Jerome Bixby, James Blish, Anthony Boucher, Lyle G. Boyd, Ray Bradbury, Jonathan Brand, Stuart J. Byrne, Terry Carr, Carroll J. Clem, Ed M. Clinton, Theodore R. Cogswell, Arthur Jean Cox, Allan Danzig, Jon DeCles, Miriam Allen deFord, Samuel R. Delany, Lester del Rey, Philip K. Dick, Thomas M. Disch, Sonya Dorman, Larry Eisenberg, Harlan Ellison, Carol Emshwiller, Philip José Farmer, David E. Fisher, Ron Goulart, Joseph Green, Jim Harmon, Harry Harrison, H. H. Hollis, J. Hunter Holly, James D. Houston, Edward Jesby, Leo P. Kelley, Daniel Keyes, Virginia Kidd, Damon Knight, Allen Lang, March Laumer, Ursula K. LeGuin, Fritz Leiber, Irwin Lewis, A. M. Lightner, Robert A. W. Lowndes, Katherine MacLean, Barry Malzberg, Robert E. Margroff, Anne Marple, Ardrey Marshall, Bruce McAllister, Judith Merril, Robert P. Mills, Howard L. Morris, Kris Neville, Alexei Panshin, Emil Petaja, J. R. Pierce, Arthur Porges, Mack Reynolds, Gene Roddenberry, Joanna Russ, James Sallis, William Sambrot, Hans Stefan Santesson, J. W. Schutz, Robin Scott, Larry T. Shaw, John Shepley, T. L. Sherred, Robert Silverberg, Henry Slesar, Jerry Sohl, Norman Spinrad, Margaret St. Clair, Jacob Transue, Thurlow Weed, Kate Wilhelm, Richard Wilson, Donald A. Wollheim.

[lenetaylor]

The Kellys - Paul McCartney's domestics

George and Gwen Kelly were employed by Paul McCartney for about a year (1966) at his house at Cavendish. The circumstances of their leaving are somewhat mysterious. Here's all the information on them that I could gather from public sources.

Paul bought the house at 7 Cavendish Ave on 13 April 1965 for £40,000. He then spent about £20,000 to renovate and redecorate, finally moving (from the Ashers' house on Wimpole Street) in March 1966. The house had (has) a basement, which served as living quarters for servants, a ground floor, and two floors above it. On the ground floor Paul installed an open-plan kitchen and a formal dining room.

In Paul McCartney: The Life by Philip Norman (2016), he writes: "Paul’s brief to the Adamses [the designers] was the strangest they’d ever received, or ever would again; he said he wanted the kind of house where a smell of cabbage floated up from the basement...In fact, the house had no basement from which cosy cabbage-smells could waft to its upper storeys." 100% wrong: The house does have a basement, and you can see the windows to the basement in some photos. This was a standard design for houses at the time, with the main kitchen in the basement along with quarters for some of the staff. This is where the Kellys lived.

Even though he gets that wrong, we'll continue with Norman's book:

In those same Sunday colour supplements one could read how, if traditional domestic servants might have no place in the egalitarian Sixties, wealthy young bachelors often employed a live-in married couple, usually Spanish, the husband combining the roles of butler and chauffeur, the wife cooking and keeping house. Paul started out at 7 Cavendish Avenue with just such a couple, albeit Irish rather than Spanish and with the reassuring Liverpool-echoey name of Kelly. When he hired them, he gave warning that his household would be anything but a conventional one, and defined their main role as just ‘to fit in’. He soon discovered the drawback in having domestic servants, as noted by writers like Harold Nicolson back in the Victorian country house era: there are always people standing around, eavesdropping on your conversations, obliging you to shut the toilet door (all the more irksome if you’re fond of sitting there, playing guitar) and generally behave as if you’re in an hotel rather than at home. Mr Kelly, evidently seeing himself as Jeeves to Paul’s Bertie Wooster, would ceremonially lay out his young master’s clothes for the day ahead until firmly dissuaded. Pop star pals who stayed overnight, and expected to be left comatose until after noon, would instead be briskly roused by Mr Kelly with early morning tea. On the big dining-room table, he placed a display of silverware whose highly-polished formality was too much even for Paul; to annoy them, he’d take out the ornate silver cruet and put a cheap plastic one in its place.

The "to fit in" quote is from a short piece that appeared in the London Sunday Times on September 18 1966, by Hunter Davies, titled "ATTICVS: All Paul":

Paul McCartney was in his new mansion in St. John's Wood. He lives alone. A Mr. and Mrs. Kelly look after him. Nothing so formal as a housekeeper and butler. Their job, he says, is just to fit in.

Barry Miles, in Many Years From Now (1997), picks up the silver cruet story:

There was a large dining table with an antique lace tablecloth, which was always beautifully set with all the appropriate cutlery, but it had a plastic salt cellar and pepper shaker in the centre. Paul owned silver ones but insisted on using the cheap ones, mainly to annoy the housekeeper, Mrs Kelly, and her husband, who had previously worked for gentry and let it be known, not very subtly, that they regarded their new position as a step down in the world. The husband had initially attempted to continue his role as gentleman's gentleman by laying out Paul's clothes each morning until Paul made it abundantly clear that this was not required. Every time they set the table the silver cruet was laid and each time Paul replaced it with the plastic one. Paul fired them for selling their story to an Australian magazine... “I had this live-in couple called the Kellys who would wake you up early in the morning like everything was just going normally and we had just stayed up all night and it was like, 'Go away please!'”

Nicholas Schaffner's book The Beatles Forever (1977) has this information from George Kelly:

George Kelly, a veteran of 16 years of service in the Royal Army who went on to become butler and chauffeur at some of Britain’s most stately homes before being hired by Paul McCartney in 1966, recalls with distaste in his memoirs having to bring morning tea for two to Paul’s bedroom when Jane was away, and having to endure the sight of the Beatle stubbing out ciggies on his silver Ivor Novello awards. But nothing seems to have unhinged Kelly more that the time he accidentally stumbled in on “one of the most bizarre scenes I have ever witnessed. There, in front of the television set, were the highest-paid pop group in the world and their manager, bowing down and salamming, chanting and dancing with one another!” Kelly recalls making his way through the billowing incense and flashing colored strobelights to give Paul a message, but “nobody took the slightest notice of me. They were all on their own little clouds. So as the Eastern music…grew louder, I just left the room quietly.” Shortly afterward, the butler handed in his notice, but not before receiving lectures from his employer about the benefits of LSD: “Your whole life flashes before you and you realize all the mistakes you have made.” (p. 76)

Schaffner says this is from Kelly's "memoirs", but I can't find any evidence of these memoirs being published. It's possible Schaffner had access to an unpublished manuscript; the quotes certainly read like something written, not an interview.

In addition to serving morning tea at noon and whatever else they were doing, they had to deal with the endless stream of fans. At Meet the Beatles For Real, Carol Bedford talks about visiting London in the summer of 1966:

“I couldn't have been there for more than two minutes when Mr. Kelly, Paul's gardener, came out screaming and waving a hoe at me. He said that Paul had just come in at 3 a.m. and needed rest. I looked up to see the curtains being rustled on the middle window of the second floor. Mrs. Kelly came out, and when asked if Paul and Jane were married, she answered, "No, of course not! That's a bunch of rubbish!"

(Lizzie Bravo added, "Funny, I remember her husband, Mr. Kelly, we called him "Stick" and he was pretty nasty but I don't remember her...")

So did they quit, or were they fired? They were gone by the end of January 1967. Here's an article published January 12, 1967 that ran in several American newspapers; this was titled "They’ve Had Enough of That Job, Thank You":

George and Gwen Kelly, who were Beatle Paul McCartney’s chauffeur and housekeeper until they quit recently, read a newspaper ad saying a Mr. Brown needed a chauffeur and housekeeper. George telephoned the employment agency that had advertised, said he and wife might be interested and asked for details. “Yes,” said the voice on the telephone. “Your prospective employer lives in St. John’s Wood—” “Did you say St. John’s Wood? We know the area very well. We’ve got friends there. We used to work in St. John’s Wood.” “And the wages are good,” said the agency man. “Go on, please,” said George. “There’ll be lots of entertaining. You will see a lot of interesting people.” “Tell me,” said George, “what sort of a chap is Mr. Brown?” There was a long pause. Then in a low, confidential voice, the agency man said: “Now, you must promise not to say anything, but Mr. Brown is really Paul McCartney—one of the Beatles, you know.” “I know,” said George. “Thank you for your trouble in answering my questions.” “When will you be coming in for an interview?” asked the agency man as George hung up. When the Kellys left McCartney, George said he and his wife thought they would be happier working for someone with more regular hours.

(They're not wrong!)

Back to Norman:

Paul’s live-in domestic couple, the Kellys, had left his employment in January 1967, after Mrs Kelly talked out of turn to an Australian newspaper, though he still hand-wrote her a reference calling her ‘efficient and trustworthy’. After trying another couple, the Millses, he found Rose Martin (no relation to George), an unflappable, unshockable woman who would serve him with irreproachable loyalty and discretion for many years to come. However, Rose was fiercely loyal to Jane, so treated Maggie with barely restrained hostility.

And back to Miles:

Paul asked his housekeepers, the Kellys, to leave after he found that they had written an article about his home life for an Australian magazine. Paul: “Mr and Mrs Kelly are looking for another place and I’m getting another couple to replace them. There have been disagreements over the running of the household. I haven’t asked them to leave instantly because that would be unreasonable.” They were replaced by Mr and Mrs Mills. (“She still hasn’t given me a tune yet,” quipped Paul, referring to popular pianist Mrs Mills.)

And then we have Mike McCartney, who has a different story - here he's talking about his photo of Paul's smashed-up face:

The fab pic was eventually stolen from Cave Avenue by a ‘butler’ and sold to an Italian mag to illustrate ‘wild Beatle drug parties in swinging London’.

(I'm pretty sure he's conflating stories here - I don't remember reading anywhere else that his photo was stolen)

The only contemporary account of their departure I can find in the newspapers is from The Daily Mirror on January 6, 1967.

Beatle’s Staff Driven Out By His Fans By Kenelm Jenour

The married couple who act as housekeeper and chauffeur to Beatle Paul McCartney have given him their notices. The reason: They could not stand the fans any more. The couple, George and Gwen Kelly, have looked after Paul at his £40,000 London home behind Lord’s cricket ground since he moved in almost a year ago. Last night, while Paul was recording with John, George, and Ringo, Mr. Kelly told me: “Paul has been a good boss. But the fans have been a terrible strain. “In fact sometimes it’s been murder. We’ve had no private life at all. “Sometimes we can’t even get into the house because of fans crowding around outside. And we get phone calls from all over the world at all hours of the night.” The Kellys, both aged 40, told Paul on Wednesday of their decision to quit. But they did not set a date for leaving. “We don’t want to leave him in the lurch,” said Gwen in their basement flat at Paul’s home. “We will probably go in four or five weeks.” Engaged Gwen, who once worked with her husband for the Lord Lieutenant of Monmouthshire, went on: “We didn’t even know Paul was a Beatle when we came here. All we knew was that we had been engaged by a Mr. Paul McCartney. “And that’s what we have always called him - ‘Mr. McCartney’ or ‘Sir.” He hates any familiarity.” One thing the Kellys stressed: They are not leaving Paul, the only bachelor Beatle because he wants to get married. “As far as we know - and we probably know him as well as anyone - he has no immediate plans to marry,” said George.

The image at the top of this post is Paul's letter of recommendation for Gwen Kelly, which was sold at auction in 1993 for £250, according to The Paul McCartney Encyclopedia by Bill Harry (2003). It seems to have been sold through Tracks Ltd. in the UK. Here's the description:

A one-page job reference for a housekeeper, Mrs. G. Kelly, who Paul McCartney employed for a brief period in the mid-sixties in his home in Cavendish Avenue, London. Mrs. Kelly resigned as housekeeper due to differences with Paul about the running of the home. The reference dates to 1967. It reads, "Mrs G Kelly, Mrs Kelly worked for me and was a very capable and trustworthy housekeeper. She is an excellent cook and generally very efficient. Paul McCartney". It comes with four black & white modern prints of photographs of Paul McCartney's home which were formerly the property of Mrs. Kelly, (3 of these depict the housekeeper on the forecourt of the house) an original newspaper clipping relating to her resignation and a modern print out of another newspaper cutting. Three of the photographs measure 9cm x 9cm (3.5 inches x 3.5 inches), the fourth measures 10.5cm x 8.5cm (4.25 inches x 3.25 inches). The photographs are not being sold with copyright. The reference letter measures 20cm x 25cm (8 inches x 10 inches). It has tears and tape stains on the folds. The condition of the letter is fair.

Back to Norman:

Paul’s live-in domestic couple, the Kellys, had left his employment in January 1967, after Mrs Kelly talked out of turn to an Australian newspaper, though he still hand-wrote her a reference calling her ‘efficient and trustworthy’. After trying another couple, the Millses, he found Rose Martin (no relation to George), an unflappable, unshockable woman who would serve him with irreproachable loyalty and discretion for many years to come. However, Rose was fiercely loyal to Jane, so treated Maggie with barely restrained hostility.

I have spent considerable time searching online for "the Australian newspaper/magazine" that the Kellys supposedly sold their story to, but I can't find anything at all. Three possibilities:

The story was published in a small paper or magazine but isn't available online or in an archive

They talked to an Australian reporter but the story was never published, perhaps due to pressure from Beatle management (Murdoch involvement? He owned many newspapers in Australia at that time)

It was a rumor that got published as truth and keeps getting recycled; they really left because the situation was intolerable

I can't find any more information about what happened to the Kellys after they left Cavendish. I would love to know the end of their story!

(Honestly, being Paul's housekeeper in 1966 sounds like the worst job in the world.)

[idontwanttospoiltheparty]

thoughts on philly norman stating that john wanted to have a thing with paul just because he was bohemian and nothing to do with attraction? i know a few ppl who think this way too.

Fair question. Do you mean you know people who believe this about John or people who also wanna try out gay sex one (1) time?

Here's the passage again, I bolded the bits most relevant to my point:

From chance remarks he [John] had made, she [Yoko] gathered there had even been a moment when—on the principle that bohemians should try everything— he had contemplated an affair with Paul, but had been deterred by Paul’s immovable heterosexuality. Nor, apparently, was Yoko the only one to have picked up on this. Around Apple, in her hearing, Paul would sometimes be called John’s Princess. She had also once heard a rehearsal tape with John’s voice calling out “Paul … Paul …” in a strangely subservient, pleading way. “I knew there was something going on there,” she remembers. “From his point of view, not from Paul’s. And he was so angry at Paul, I couldn’t help wondering what it was really about.”

I haven't read the entirety of Norman's book, but other passages from it that I've come across feel contradictory to the idea that John was merely a "bohemian" and not authentically attracted to men (I'll leave some under the cut).

Either way, his book is not the only source for John being attracted to men and it seems kind of implausible to me that John would be into men in general but not into Paul but still want to fuck Paul specifically, to the point it actively pissed him off that Paul wouldn't "put out". If someone can flesh this scenario out in a way that makes sense to them, though, they're welcome to tell me about it.

If you want my personal opinion, someone in the "knowledge-chain" is downplaying: that is to say either John downplayed his feelings to Yoko in order to appease her/because he was in denial, or Yoko was trying downplay them to Norman to try and control the direction of his biography, or Norman kind of didn't like what Yoko was implying about John here, so he came up with a reason that would relativize it. I lean towards the latter because Yoko's quoted words just really don't cohere much with the concept that this wasn't about Paul specifically to John. (it could also be that John was openly contradictory in this way and that's just not quite coming out in the passage though)

Other sexuality-related stuff from John Lennon: A Life by Philip Norman

(not perfectly sourced, just screenshots of my epub, I'm on a train. If you need help, just ask)

this bit is genuinely insane. as in, according to this (and it seems, according to Yoko), John told Pete Shotton he let Brian toss him off because he thought this would – IN 1963???? – reflect positively on John?

Also, now we're saying something DID happen in Spain. Okay?

Underratedly Certified Insane anecdote about John.

This is a little later in the same chapter.

There might be more but I have to get off now.

[agent4justice]

One Week Total Crackdown on George W. Bush Jr International and local syndicated crime group involved in making Philip Blas lived almost below poverty line for the past 19 years.

Philip Blas aka Mohammad Blas after receiving a threat from Daphne Aguilar, Lilith, Eve, and Ruby Eyes, Mabel Navarro, Norman Veneprado whose replica presented as Crown Prince of Saudi was thwarted by Mohammad. and the whole crime group members with George W. Bush Jr as commander is assembling Kawkaw Super Elite Tracker and Eliminator which has the ability to sense alien characteristic and destroy by breaking them to simpler and light atomic weight to avoid them from re-assembling high explosives and disable from replicating. This conversion will also disable them to mimic other lifeforms or access other dimensions as an evasive tactic. Deploy 2 million elite force.

This crime group are seasoned mercenaries that are trained to perform clandestine operation in infiltrating other governments and eventually takeover that were summoned by Mohammad around a couple or three weeks ago where the world witness all high officials already taken over as doppelgangers.

They are aliens with supernatural powers they perform to individual target so they psychologically threaten their sanity to subdue them. They are ruthless with no regards for human lives. Taking over head of states or the military are used to acquire all entry passage to locations they have set to exploit places where uranium or plutonium could be mined.

Their anatomy suggest that they have no gender and doesn't have ability to reproduce and mainly use demonized humans to populate their army if not puppets.

They owned most of the biggest arms manufacturer as their main tool to harvest not so mutilated human bodies that are partially unconscious to take over their spirit and body.

Conflict spark on both countries after their infiltrator successfully fires their bombs planted on both sides with damages enough to provoke a full confrontation.

I have always been a critic of nations acting as lifesavers by sending military aid, apparently a bestseller ingredient to prolong and increase casualties that can man their army and a source of dopamine their number one (1) export and earner.

As an initial attack, I am reducing the intake of meds that army use to increase their and any hallucinogen that triggers demonic viciousness and disable to keep changing lifeforms and be more visible and accessing other dimension. Period.