#so I really don't understand the people in the fandom who treat Crowley as an Adonis and Azi as the unattractive one

[hazbinbabbling4ever]

Choose the violence.

Do I want to choose Ultimate Violence on TikTok and talk about how Aziraphale’s effeminate presentation and more non-conventionally attractive appearance has significantly contributed to the unfair treatment he receives from part of the fandom or do I want to keep posting Supernatural memes?

[tonydaddingham]

the more that ive thought about it (it of course being the argument clip), the more that i need to get something off my chest and defend aziraphale - not necessarily against anyone, not saying anyone is attacking him, but whilst crowley is my special apple crimble crumble boy, aziraphale is the goodest lil dude and there is nothing i wouldn't do for that messy man-

i think what a lot people forget about aziraphale is that he is so fucking clever, he is arguably more intelligent than crowley, but has the irksome, painful dichotomy of being kind. what kinda upset me in the clip is that crowley almost addresses aziraphale as if he's stupid, when he's anything but. aziraphale is fully aware that gabriel, michael, uriel etc are all wankers, he's not oblivious to it, but aziraphale is an unfailingly empathetic and compassionate angel, and will try to always see the best in people.

the fandom sometimes mistakes this for naivety or even ignorance, and it's not - aziraphale is not naive, he knows that these angels are shits and treat him poorly, but aziraphale has a pretty strong view on what an angel should be, what they should embody, and even though he knows deep down these other angels don't really follow the same blueprint, he hopes and he tries to remain optimistic and see the best in them. he hopes to be forgiven for his trespasses just as he forgives those who trespass against him✨

and so by the end of s1 i think he really does give up on being an angel ("just enough of a bastard to be worth knowing" got the most satisfied, bashful grin on him we've ever seen) and instead is just a good person. and i think crowley fails to realise or accept this - not bc he's stupid either, but i think he sometimes really underestimates aziraphale and possibly because he thinks (possibly due to his own trauma- the apocalypse as well as the Fall) that god will never love a being that isn't good and godly at the same time. he can't accept that that the two things, being good and being godly, are entirely different concepts, and that in aziraphale the two must go hand in hand.

aziraphale understands the difference, and knows that he can still be loved by god even if he doesn't align himself with heaven anymore. so therefore its a real foreign idea, a ludicrous concept, to crowley that aziraphale is still being kind to gabriel, being compassionate, when in his mind this is the angel that wanted to kill them both and is a first class wanker to boot.

but i think that does actually show that, not in any way maliciously or intentionally but likely just as a projection borne out of anger and possibly self-hatred, crowley is thinking appalling little of aziraphale right now. does he really believe that the angel that he slithered up next to on the wall and who not only didn't smite him on sight but also conversed with him and listened to him and sheltered him from the first rain whilst not even bothering to shelter himself is incapable of being kind without being heaven's puppet?

so yes i totally get where crowley is coming from, and whilst it kills me a little inside to think that crowley might consider himself so unworthy of kindness and affection unless it originates from a systematic compulsive side effect of being a Holy Entity, i think he's being grossly unfair to aziraphale in not realising even after 6000 years of knowing him that aziraphale might just simply be a really kind person.

[actual-changeling]

I’m sorry if this is stirring things up as I really don’t mean it that way I’m just new into the fandom and getting a bit confused between posts.

I’ve seen a lot of people saying that people are switching Crowley and aziraphale’s personalities, perhaps to make aziraphale seem a bit more forgivable? Or just misunderstanding their characters entirely….im just finding it a bit hard to catch on to what people mean and what characteristics are being switched

It seems to me that aziraphales behaviour is quite inconsistent and confusing anyway 😅 (intentionally written that way)

I guess that’s what people are getting caught up in

You're not stirring up anything, don't worry!

I can definitely understand that for someone who didn't experience all the developments as they happened, it's hard to understand where we landed and why.

Everything that follows is my personal opinion and how I interpret the posts and discussions I am seeing. There are a few different kinds of topics:

some people "sided" with either Aziraphale or Crowley in the divorce and are treating anything that doesn't align with their side as wrong or outright offensive

a few of them are outright vilifying one or the other, going so far as claiming that they're abusive towards the other character

there are people excusing and justifying Aziraphale's behaviour in the final fifteen minutes, the final fifteen as they're commonly called, and are freeing him from any responsibility for his actions

then there are people who (imo for good reason) take issue with posts like that and that's how we get either respectful discussions or immature arguments, depends on who's doing the talking

if you happen to have some basic reading comprehension and have touched grass sometime this week you will probably find yourself with in the "we have nuanced opinions on complex issues and discuss them like adults" corner, which is my personal favourite

I want to add another, more... potentially inflammatory type of post, which is people 'defending' Aziraphale against accusations that people who 'hate Aziraphale and love Crowley' spread—but, and I am not lying or exaggerating, I have yet to come across ANY of those posts they claim exist.

Maybe it's my corner of the fandom, I don't know, but all I see is people vehemently defending Aziraphale and at times ruining both his and Crowley's character, but never any of the posts that supposedly sparked it. On top of that, the only hate I've gotten (which is a surprisingly large amount) is from people 'defending' Aziraphale against me because obviously I hate him and everything I do and say is against him. Go figure.

Aziraphale IS contradictory, it's what makes him hard to understand for some because he holds seemingly opposing views at the same time without settling on one or the other. Crowley can seem more forward or easily understood, but once you get down to it they're both complicated, layered characters you cannot break down to angel good and demon bad (which yes, is actually takes I see floating around more than I'd like).

[rose-tea-and-strawberries]

I'm kinda curious about your view on vil and your thoughts on the trauma he possibly or could have inflicted on Yuu during book 5.

I have this headcannon inspired by this one shot by uniquethingtastemaker

https://www.tumblr.com/uniquethingtastemaker/720073081338626048/neige-x-reader-white-beaches-and-a-spring-morning?source=share

The headcannon: Basically Yuu (who is female for this) hides the fact that she's a girl for safety reasons (I mean not only is Yuu magic less in another world, she's also in a all boy school. Yeah that doesn't scream good idea). The only who knows are the teachers, Crowley, Grim and later Ace and Deuce when she's comfortable enough to tell them. At some point before book 5, Yuu is allowed a small vacation out of NRC for the crap she had to deal with jamil in the previous book; during her vacation goes out as herself and runs into neige. They become friends and stay in touch with one another. Yuu made Neige promise not to say anything about her actually gender as a few know in NRC.

*Also have a headcannon where Yuu is a school idol like love live and secretly helps Neige and the dwarfs write a song and dance that works for them for VDC. Yuu and Neige were already writing a song together just for fun since Yuu missed being a school idol and hasn't written a song since coming to twisted wonderland 😅

Plus it's something she has a choice in and would fun doing with a friend. During book 5, Crowley literally forced Yuu's hand by threatening their plumbing and Vil just dub them the manager without asking if it was okay with them. There's also how forceful he was being. . . .

There's no rule that has she can't and she's not even in the group.

Sorry for rambling 😅

So I've written about my thoughts on Vil before and honestly he's kind of one of my - if not my most - least favourite character(s).

I've cut this up for length:

I know that he has a lot of trauma and that he's a character that lots of people can mischaracterize and hate irrationally but he just rubs me the wrong way - and I'm saying this as a former gifted child and as someone who has witnessed people go through burn out both in Primary and Secondary school. I feel sorry for him and I understand that the pressure of perfection can be an incredible burden to bear but the way he treats others is just so grating that I can't say I like him that much.

Honestly, Book 5 is my least favourite book (then it's 3 then 4) and I have so much to say for everything; the blackmail, Vil's behaviour, Vil cursing our food without telling us, having to share a dorm with Jamil when he used Yuu and endangered them for his own gain (and then Kalim for sweeping it under the rug), Vil almost making Deuce cry, the Neige hate, Vil facing absolutely no consequences for trying to murder someone and then nearly killing everyone and destroying a building.

Yes, I agree that Epel has a mindset of toxic masculinity and yes, it should be addressed and challenged. But Vil's military dictator training and forcing him to do things that he hates (and even making him hide his accent - something that connects him to the home and family he loves) is not how you do it. I don't despise feminine things like he does, but even I would hate to live up to Vil's standards every single day (especially when Vil degrades far more times than he praises).

Something I really really hate about the twst fandom is how lots of people put down Neige or make him the butt of a joke just to make Vil better. I've seen so many jokes or fanfics or imagines where Neige gets rejected or laughed at or treated terribly just so that Vil can be seen as superior and as someone who actually really likes Neige and has Snow White as their favourite princess ever since they were in reception, I just can't stand the Neige hate. Especially when he was almost a victim of a poisoning plot - as in Vil literally tried to kill him for absolutely no reason at all (before he then tried to kill us for 'seeing an ugly side of him' which we are supposed to forgive because of course we are)

I really loved that Neige story and I actually do headcanon that Neige and Yuu are really close friends and they text each other 24/7 (and also with Prince Rielle). I did make a #JusticeForYuu post where I said that I wanted Yuu to just send the entirety of NRC (minus Ace and Deuce) to coventry and not give them the time of day so I thought it would be just delicious if Neige is the one that helps Yuu with all things fashion related since he's just as famous (if not more so) than Vil with his own line of clothing and make up and would have access to things they would need.

And I think you somehow managed to read my mind because I have this Yuu that's a theatre kid (this is not relevant at all but this fem!Yuu was also Christine Daaé in her theatre's performance of Phantom of the Opera) with the voice of an angel that's best friends with Neige and the two of them totally duet together - I did kind of toy with the idea of Neige hyping her up to sing something for VDC as a closing performance and her blowing everyone away but I digress...

You know what? I am actually against the headcanon that RSA is filled with snooty, condescending, stuck up rich kids with a holier-than-thou attitude - I'm under the firm belief that the RSA students are actual sweethearts who are kind and caring and aren't the type of people who would inflict trauma on an innocent magicless teenager. The only reason why I don't want Yuu to transfer to RSA is because they'd have to leave Ace and Deuce behind (as well as the Ramshackle ghosts) and those boys are literally everything to me so I like to think that Yuu likes to go to RSA like once a week or something to spend time with people who don't try to manipulate or mistreat them.

I do have a lot more things to say but my brain has gone to mush and I can't think of anything so here

[queenofthearchipelago]

The good omens fandom has been disappointing lately, and I don't mean because of Neil. I mean because of the small pocket who lashed out at Neil not long ago.

For those reading my post out of context, let me explain quickly that Neil has always said, very specifically so, that Aziraphale and Crowley are not men, and therefore are not gay. That being gay is a human thing, and angels and demons generally don't even really understand it. (This is not a direct quote from him, but I've read this sentiment from him a few times.) And in response to that, I've seen popular members in this fandom respond in harsh anger because they feel that when Neil says these things, that it comes from a place of internalized homophobia that he's been holding onto like his life depends on it for the last 30 years.

If I may gently offer a different perspective... and please do not come for me, I really genuinely do not want to interact in debate or argument, I simply want to lay out how I see this, and lay it down as a kinder perspective for those it may help.

Neil (and Michael and David) have always used incredibly vague language to determine who and what exactly Aziraphale and Crowley are to each other. The only consistencies are that they are an angel and a demon and they love each other, they're in love with each other.

If it comes to answering any questions more specific than that, like if they're gay, then the answer is that Aziraphale and Crowley are not men, they're supernatural beings.

This is not coming from a place of bias, this is coming from a place of protecting the fandom.

This fandom is such a diverse and beautiful place. I see many people who headcanon them as being gay. I also have met people here who headcanon them as lesbians. As being trans. As being asexual. As gender fluid. As being every different type of orientation and identity possible. The theories and headcanons on who and what Aziraphale and Crowley are, is just as varied as every single person in the fandom.

And that's so important.

For a group of people who know what it feels like to not have representation on screen... for some since the book has come out more than 30 years ago and for some who have only come into this fandom with show 5 ish years ago, you guys know how important representation is.

I can't help but feel that some of this frustration and anger towards Neil for not blatantly saying that it's a gay love story comes from a place of wanting their version of Aziraphale and Crowley to be deemed superior to the others at the cost of erasure of the orientations and identities possible in everyone else's headcanons.

It's a queer love story, whatever that means to you. Before the first season aired, Neil directly said that no one was trying to take your version of Aziraphale and Crowley away from you. And do we not all read the same blog? I see posts from this man celebrating how different members of his readership, young and old, find representation and comfort within this story he AND TERRY PRATCHETT made.

I do wonder if you would treat Terry this way. I sure hope not.

We're never going to get Neil Gaiman saying these characters are gay, because it would crack the very rare and delicate and beautiful thing that's been created here. A couple of characters in a deeply loving relationship where you the audience get to decide what their relationship is? Where you get to decide their gender, because they literally don't have one? A story where the characters could genuinely, canonically, be like you because there's nothing inside the story saying that aren't like you? Where that freedom to interpret is part of the very foundation of the characters?

What other story would you guys be getting that from? Because I don't see any others like that on any bookshelf I've scanned recently.

Neil isn't going to ruin that for you.

And even if he did, he's also directly said that his stories speak for themselves. He isn't Word of God. Neil doesn't pretend that extra information he brings on Tumblr dot com actually adds anything to the story we all watched. That stands on its own, anything extra he may say or not is up to us to decide if we think it's canon or not. Do you, yes you, very specifically YOU... do you care about Word of God? Do you care about Author's Intent?

These are choices you make as a reader, as a viewer of intelligent television.

Aziraphale and Crowley are whatever you want them to be. They're in love. They always have been. And whatever that means to you, is yours and you can have that and share that and no one (not even Neil Gaiman) is ever going to take that precious thing away from you.

So write your fanfics and draw your fanart and participate in roleplays and take your comfort and guard your peace.

It's supposed to be safe here.

[robinwithay]

I'm mean this very /gen, but I've seen a lot of posts recently talking about how fans need to think more about Aziraphale and not baby Crowley and based on these posts fans seem heavily skewed towards Crowley but... I'm hardly in this Fandom, I pop in from time to time to see art and fic and meta for like a week or two, go away for a bit, and then come back and check in again, and generally what I've seen more than anything, is posts about Aziraphale and his trauma and why he's suffering the most and Crowley should have Done Better and Aziraphale Defense no matter what, any aziraphale critique seen as hate...

So I'm not sure where this disconnect is happening. We're apparently seeing completely opposite sides of the Fandom, but it seems like the overwhelming majority. So I see posts that are like, okay let's focus more on Aziraphale, and I'm like, that's literally all I'm seeing......this isn't meant to start something, bc I honestly am curious how this is happening and how everyone is either miscommunicating or idk something

hi anon! first of all, sorry it took me so long to get to this ask - it's partly because i really don't know the answer. i've spoken to others about this phenomenon of everyone seeming to only see the opposite of whatever "side" they've personally chosen, and it does seem to happen a lot. i have a theory it's partially confirmation bias - as in people ignore what they see that agrees with what they already think, and only focus on/remember what doesn't because they want to believe there is opposition to their opinion - partially temporal (maybe especially temporal for you, if you only dip in and out!) - as in more people have come around to seeing Aziraphale's side of things the more time has passed after the initial pain of s2 making a lot of people side more with Crowley - and partially that there is a real divide.

personally, i think that choosing "sides" between two characters who love each other is...silly. i think both of them were wrong and right in different ways, they both hurt each other, and they both have some development they need to do to forgive and earn each other's forgiveness.

however, i do think there was a huge initial wave of hatred thrown at Aziraphale that some folks are still very much riding. since season 1, i think Crowley has always been the fandom favourite, and i say that in full appreciation of the fact that in terms of fandom, the GO fandom is a rare one where the disparity between fandom favourites is much smaller than in most. plenty of people love Aziraphale, but he doesn't tend to get the same treatment as Crowley. and it's understandable - Crowley is a sad wet cat of a demon, and people love an underdog, an antihero. i think a lot of folks really relate to Crowley in his bitterness, his depression, his resent. he's been treated badly, rejected, tossed aside, and persists regardless, and - unfortunately - a lot of people know how that feels. it helps that Crowley is very easy to read (despite his best efforts), especially to the audience. his motivations are clear and relatable.

Aziraphale, on the other hand, is...kinda more complicated. he's generally operating on so many layers of deceit and denial that i don't know if he himself fully understands how he truly feels half the time - he's not honest about his emotions to the audience or himself. that doesn't make for an accessible, relatable character for most people, but for those with whom it resonates, it really resonates.

let me be clear: Crowley is not a bad character for being easier to read. Aziraphale is not a bad character for being harder to read. they're just different and appeal to different people.

[saving-people-haunting-things]

This is probably an unpopular opinion or whatever, but I think fandom has a weird tendency to get mad on behalf of characters when Sam or Dean are "mean" to them even though it's perfectly understandable that they'd act that way.

I particularly see it for Crowley and Rowena for some reason. Like "oh, aren't the Winchesters so horrible to them" and I just wonder if people actually remember the show. Don't get me wrong I love Crowley and Rowena, they're fascinating characters who are very entertaining to watch, but the brothers have really good reasons for distrusting them and are actually far nicer than they should be in my opinion. Sorry that they don't hang out on the weekends and only call them when they need them, but, like, that's how any reasonable person would treat those who've acted the way they have.

Like of course Sam wants to kill Crowley, just look at s8 when he intentionally killed people who the brothers had saved! Of course Dean distrusts Rowena, she's literally tried to kill him in s10 and only failed because he had the MoC at the time! And that's just the tip of the iceberg!

I'm not trying to say that these characters are horrible or anything. I literally don't think that, I like them, too. I'm more using this as an example for how some people refuse to have empathy for the literal main characters of the show. Like, they're all fictional so it doesn't really matter, but I find it very odd. Idk why would people watch the show if they don't even want to try to emotionally connect with Sam and Dean? Fandom is weird sometimes.

[depressedtheatrekiddo]

I think I died but also like lived and it's all so AVDOWNPFWNNSOQ

I kinda don't understand what I am feeling.

Yeah u're right I just watched S2 of Good Omens:)

So I'm gonna tell how I fell so S2 Good Omens spoilers❗

I knowed things were gonna turn 😃 that 😃 way bc someone (me) forgot to block the hasthag and saw something bc ✨ stupid Dio ✨ so whatever I usually do this with everything VQIFBWLWNWLSL

The thing is— I also kept with me very beautiful things at the end.

I LOVED GABI/JIM AND BEL RELATIONSHIP LIKE— Okay, hear me out. I still don't like Gabi that much bc what he did to Azi BUT also like they're so cute😭✨ and if he really changed I would be so happy BUT I need and apology long dance to my angel bc he treated Azi freaking bad.

SBODWMMS

Okay— At the end of the season I was like more or less mad with Azi bc I couldn't understand shit (and bc I love Crowley so so much<3) but now that I read some theories, coffee theory 4 example, or also a post in Instagram that explained that Azi stills feels like an angel and believes he can make a change there, he believes in being good and I think it's beautiful. It still breaks my heart? Yes, bc I think we know it's going to be very complicated to change things in Heaven (we know how it works) and maybe Azi is going to get hurt, not physically (maybe too? I'm scared now) but emotionally bc of the process of how things work and the stress of becoming someone more more important with obligations and without the options he had in Earth.

I LOVE CROWLEY THANK U VERY MUCH. (Like not romantically but VWIDNWLAL) I loved to see them before their fall and it hurt me so much to then watch how they are now, bc they were just a baby���😭 and PUM CRAHS GOODBYE 😃😃 So yes. Alsoalso I loved so much the plants thing and the interactions with Muriel and Gabi/Jim. The moment when they asked if they could get in the house again now that Shax wasn't going to be there and that they were tired of being in the car THE FACE OF AZI I DIED. AND THE MOMENT WHEN CROWLEY TALKED WITH AZI AND THEN RJEIWKWLWLWLW. Dead. I was crying. Loves, I don't cry (usually) when I watch shows/read. I swear I could felt Crowley pain through my computer.

ALSO apart from the end that I also loved BUT EVERYTHING it's like SO SO GOOD I enjoyed every moment and it was so lovely and I fell in love with everything and everyone. I watched like two episodes a day before breakfast to enjoy my first time watching the season bc it's a beautiful experience and I enjoyed A LOT finding some easter eggs by myself, it's not a long time that I'm here in the fandom so I didn't understand some things, but know that I read other people posts and theories and experiences I think I will enjoy more my rewatch bc it's gonna be so beautiful<3

I just wanted to thank everyone who worked on the series because it was so beautiful and lovely and it made me felt and I just can't explain how much I appreciate this season.

So thanks<3

Have a nice day loves🩷🩷

[mangodestroyer]

I have to admit that I have not read a whole lot of GO fic. I know, I know, I have a whole list of fics I need to get around to reading and everything. And as a fic writer, I really should be making more of an effort to get in touch with the fandom. Plus, lots of fics in this fandom just look like they're going to be really good and I think I'm doing myself a disservice not reading them.

But anyway, from what I've seen so far, ficwise, I haven't really seen the "dumb" Aziraphale trope. If anything, I've only seen "painfully oblivious" Aziraphale while Crowley is portrayed as being far more socially adept than he actually is. Although in one piece of fanart, I do remember seeing Aziraphale getting portrayed as stupid and clumsy because of his weight, which I personally wasn't a fan of.

Yeah, I really couldn't tell you where people are getting the idea that Aziraphale isn't intelligent. Personally, I would think he would be considered a bit of a genius if he was human. I know he tends to hyperfixate on a lot of things, but I think he also has the innate ability to figure out complicated things as well. And I don't think he's too horrible with street smarts either. Why would he be? Wouldn't he need to have some of that if he's a principality? Like sure, he might not be good with understanding humans completely, but I thought all celestial beings struggled with that. And even when he made some "bad" decisions in the show, it's because he had some very good reasons for doing so (example: he was originally hesitant to join Crowley's side because he didn't think it would work out and didn't want to risk hurting Crowley).

I think both of these characters are intelligent in different ways. Crowley is good at finding solutions to problems and he's very creative. He's just not much of a bookie. Aziraphale is good at finding information and applying it to a given situation. He's the bookie.

I point out that both characters are intelligent because, like another commenter said, lots of people tend to portray Crowley as being stupid. And hopelessly so in some cases. Personally, I don't think it's good characterization to just limit a character to being helpless and stupid. Intelligence comes in many forms, and even if someone is lacking in all branches of intelligence (which isn't common), that doesn't mean a character can't be right about something or figure things out. Also, speaking as someone who grew up in a family where I was seen as stupid and helpless, and then later ended up in a relationship where I was treated as such, this just doesn't sound like a very good dynamic at all. If Aziraphale genuinely saw Crowley as stupid and helpless, or the other way around, it seems like the relationship could easily become emotionally abusive. So I get a little bothered by fics that make this too much of a point. Especially if their supposed stupidity comes from possible neurodivergent traits.

I think they fell in love with each other because they are both curious beings who question things. Crowley almost seems a little distressed at times with how frowned upon this is in the celestial world, so I don't think he would be interested in someone who never disagreed with authority. And I don't think Aziraphale would be interested in Crowley if he was actually as stupid as some people portray him.

Now, I could see Aziraphale maybe being protective of Crowley to a fault because, at least imo, that seems to be a bit of a thing in canon and I think it would be an interesting characterization/conflict. And I could see Crowley maybe being more emotionally intelligent than Aziraphale and having some problems there too. Those are Aziraphale flaws I can get behind. A well meaning Aziraphale who sometimes messes up.

GOOD OMENS FANDOM—> Fat does not equal stupid

The book Good Omens flat out says Aziraphale is intelligent.

Why does so much fanfic frame him as kind of stupid and why do so many people decide they headcanon him as stupid? I understand the ‘book smart common sense stupid’ types of headcanons, but the thing where he’s completely incompetent at everything- science, cooking, philosophy, childcare, artists and architecture, intuitive kindness-

Where is this coming from? I’d be less suspicious if it was not pervasive and accompanied by genius!crowley

I often see this idiot!aziraphale juxtaposed with Brilliant crowley, with multiple degrees, understandings in everything above I just mentioned- especially sciences and philosophy- emotional psychology, it goes on and on!!! And while we can infer he’s smart in canon, we don’t get a flat out statement about him.

What gives? And if it’s because people equate fat = stupid and slender = intellect, I’m gonna barf

I was going to link articles, but if you just use your search engine of choice and look up “why do people think fat people are stupid” the number of spot on hits is massive

[married-to-google-translater]

Now that I think about it, I don't think it matters about the gender of MC to be honest. I think the only reason why they didnt really specify is because nor all players are male or not all are female or non-binary . So I think they just treat MC as gender neutral tbh so that female players dont feel like they are constantly referred as a boys and male players don't feel like they are referred to as a girls. And the non binary players are mistaken for a he OR a she. To kind of make it all equal.

Of course in the manga, Yuu/Yuuken was introduced as a male but thats the manga, but i dont think Disney intended him to replace the people behind the screem of the game tbh. Why would the game talk to you in the 2nd person if there is already a character for that already or they could have never even ask for OUR names if there was a character like that already.To all the people who thinks that MC cant possibly be a girl/boy/gender-neutral, you literally got teleported to another world, which even the dark mirror/Crowley doesnt understand. I don't think whatever brought you to Twisted Wonderland even cared to see what gender you were or how magical you were even though it sent you to a boys' school.

Sorry if I came across as aggressive (if I even did) but this is to the people who have a problem when they think Yuu/MC/reader (whatever you call it) can't be anything other than a male character and have a problem with creators who write them as gender-neutral or female. Of course it isn't a problem if you prefer it to be a male character but please don't slander the ones who prefer it not to be. I mean Twst came out a year or two years ago, not a century so I don't think every female character in it will end up having such a traditional role. Maybe Eliza did but there were some female characters in Chaoter 6 that didn't have those kind if roles.

Feel free to challenge my opinion since I am an open minded person and is open to other people's opinions too and I promise this wasn't an attack to male MC preferences at all.Please understand that it is an OPINION.

Those were really good points. I haven't played twst myself, so I didn't know that they refer to Mc by name or in the second person. Or that they treat Mc genre neutral for behavior. Which is actually a really reasonable bet because this way some players can forget that Mc is a man.

And when it comes to Manga (and maybe also Visual Novel ) it's true. Their purpose is to tell the story and not to make the reader imagine that they are the main character.

I'm not familiar with the matter, but I believe that the majority of Male Mc supporters want Mc to be a man so that they can identify with the character themselves. As an earlier Anon commented they don't have that much material. Not even a fandom because several authors only write Fem Mc ( this is not an accusation. )

That's why it would be important to them. As far as I know, Obey me is ONLY an anime based on an Otome game where Mc is gender neutral. I hope that romantic anime with a gender-neutral protagonist will become more common.

Thank you for taking the time to participate in the discussion and writing this really long post. I wish you a good day/evening.

[ray-just-ray-thanks]

Part 2 - Queerbaiting Discourse in the Good Omens Fandom

Master post here

Why do I hate so much when people call Good Omens queerbaiting? How I understand the sentiment (again context matters), but also don't agree with it.

First Better essays than I ever will be able to do:

Good Omens: An Exploration of Internalized Acephobia (@ashs-slut-hut)

The beautiful of the unlabelled things (@solreefs)

I read many interpretations of this discourse, many are angry at Neil Gaiman because he doesn't draw a line whatever Aziraphale and Crowley relationship is romantic or not. His most famous response is: "Wait and see."

See he already answered:

This is his answer. Critical thinking is free. If you ask something in this regard, he has already answered. That's final and you are not entitled of more than this, he's the author, it's not a romance novel, he cannot change the source material because it would be violate the work of Sir Terry Pratchett and his memory. I would hate if he changed anything, I would hate him to make them conventionally gay in the human sense.

It's a love story, no they aren't gay in the sense of the word. Just like that.

Since the first time I read the book, I knew they love each other.

There are many types of love and Good Omens, because its ambiguity, open the access to interpret their love in every way possible. Romantic or Platonic or even sexual (even if I don't really like the interpretation, it's there, if Aziraphale and Crowley can do an afford so can I). It's a book and a Serie TV for everyone.

I don't have problem with people saying they see them as best friends, I have example in my life of old people that treat their oldest pal as if they were married for several years. As an asexual and aromantic I say we need also more healthy platonic friendship same sexes and non in fandom spaces.

As in context otherwise I understand that the penury of queer and LGBT+ content makes really difficult to let go of queer characters.

Because I believe Aziraphale and Crowley are intrinsically queer, in every way you want to see, they are marginalized people of their respective factions, they are una ostracize by their peers and they need to lie to appear "normal" to them, masking and putting up a façade anytime they need to be in public meeting. Their peers don't understand how and why they want to live like that, not understanding they are like that, they are just different. Not bad, not good, just different.

They feel love (whatever type you headcanon they to feel), both of them and cannot express it in public because it's not the right kind of love.

Aziraphale loves sushi, loves his books and loves his life with Crowley, but it's not proper for him he should just love as general concept. He’s soft, the way he’s presenting is not proper for an Angel.

Crowley cannot love. He's a demon, he cannot love anything if not chaos and bad things, but he loves his car, he loves his plants and the life he built with Aziraphale.

Both of them don't feel the right love, the appropriate type, what their society want them to feel or respect the way they should presenting.

This is intrinsically a queer experience, I felt nearly any of this thing in my life, from relatives, friends and even strangers. This is why I hate when the debate is reduced to "they don't kiss, they don't fuck".

Also, they are not human and don't have biological sexes, they are presenting as males, but in a canonically way Crowley presented as female and she was still Crowley, nothing has change if not the way of presenting themselves. That's queer as fuck.

[Or not, since you could argue that they are not human in first place, but the translation of their actions are still what we human would call a queer fight to me.]

On a personal note, to me, even Aziraphale who doesn't change anything (even his sex) because he's a lazy bastard is still queer behaviour.

When people have the impression that he's English, that he's intelligent, and that he's gayer than a treeful of monkeys on nitrous oxide, after in the book was said that they're genderless and they only make an afford sometimes, makes the punch line the humans who don't understand jackshit, but still judge his character by the way he's presenting, while Aziraphale, the lazy fuck, doesn't give a shit how he's presenting (he did not change his style since Victorian age, because it's comfy and he think tartan is the peak of stylish, tell me that he care what others think, except, maybe, Crowley, but even him has no saying in how he can or cannot present).

I would say Aziraphale doesn't care about humans in general and he would be fine with them disappearing, but don't want them to do so, because otherwise he wouldn't have books and food anymore. But enough of this, I'm going even more off target than I'm already am.

So, I understand the sentiment of wanting something more, the need of more LGBT+ characters and stories, but this is not it. This is not a story you can change and harass the author to make it more yours, because it's not.

The story is for us, not ours. Every story is made for someone, but it's not owned by anyone else if not the author(s). It's not your story to tell. I can see the story as queer, I love the interpretation of the story as queer, Neil Gaiman gave us the green light, do what you want with your interpretation! But at the end of the day, it's an interpretation.

The queerbaiting discourse miss the point of the story. Just because it's not the flavour of queer you wanted it to be, it doesn't mean it's not queer or cannot be interpreted as such. My, yours, everybody else interpretation is valid and can coexist, because it's a love story and everybody can express love and feel love in many ways.

Therefore, I can say it's queer, another person can say it's just friendship and another again can say it's clearly LGBT+. It's an open interpretation of the word "Love".

Queerbaiting is not contemplated. It was not market as queer (even if the very linguistic old fashioned term as strange, unusual or unexpected, would have been quite correct marketing for this work of art.)

The author delivered what promised. A story, a comedy, two entities more human than not, who love each other very dearly and the Apocalypse. From my knowledge it is not queerbaiting.

Again, I understand the sentiment, but you need to search for a better target, because right now you're just biting in the air, getting frustrated because there is nothing to bite, it's just...air.

Part One

Part two(You're here)

Part three

Master post

[i-dreamed-i-had-a-son]

Definitely have complicated thoughts on this one...like yes on the one hand fanfic is definitely helpful for allowing us as queer people to feel known and a part of a larger community. But, as everyone has said, fanfic is not the be-all-end-all in terms of representative literature.

My main thought, though, and this is something that I hesitate to express because I don't want to start a firestorm or get called homophobic myself, is that this is not a uniquely gay experience. The sentiments in this post are very personal and I have experienced (and still do experience) them deeply, and it is precisely because of the attitude that x character, as OP put it, "SHOULD be gay".

What I mean by this is, in fandom specifically, characters that are grouped into the "should be gay" category quickly become very exclusively only gay. Characters that are relatable to many queer people get classed (implicitly or explicitly) as off-limits to headcanon as anything else. This perpetuates the exact feeling that you're talking about, but on other queer people.

As an example, let's use Aziraphale and Crowley from the Good Omens book/TV series. They are explicitly stated to be agender, and to "not care about sex unless they make an effort". This is 100% queer representation, and Neil Gaiman (despite whatever other problematic elements he might have) did a really good job of stating that he thinks their relationship is valid to interpret in a myriad of ways. He gave really solid, and really queer, rep--but was repeatedly lambasted for "queerbaiting". He didn't queerbait, but because the characters weren't explicitly gay, the rep given there is treated as insufficient or lesser.

For an alternate perspective, consider Sherlock and John, or Spock and Jim. I, speaking as someone who does not consider them gay men, have repeatedly been met with accusations of being homophobic because I don't headcanon them a certain way. But why? I'm following the reasoning laid out above. I see them acting in ways that I relate to, and so I headcanon them as people who are like me--exactly as the people who see them as gay are doing. Why is my interpretation any less valid?

It is a different situation if the character is explicitly written to be of one orientation, and that orientation is erased by fandom. (I've witnessed that happen to the few characters out there that canonically share my orientation, so I get how infuriating it is.) But here, we're talking about characters that aren't confirmed to be anything--and in some cases, particularly in the case of Aziraphale and Crowley, are specifically intended to be a blank slate. Yet, the pushback against any alternate headcanons or interpretations, from the side of fandom that views them as gay, is as vicious at times as though these characters are canonically gay. They are not.

I'm frustrated because the attitude gay Tumblr takes towards headcanons and fandoms literally perpetuates the same mistreatment that all queer folk have been dealing with from the straights. It's "offensive" or "wrong" to insinuate that a character might have an orientation different from the main interpretation. (At the risk of making this post too lengthy, I want to add that this isn't even a strictly queer issue. This happens with interpreting characters as neurotypical vs. neurodivergent, as a POC vs. white, it can branch off into body type and religion and a multitude of other things.)

In short, my point is twofold. Firstly, headcanons are supposed to be freeing endeavors that allow people to feel represented. Putting restrictions on that freedom runs counter to everything the queer community, and other minority/disadvantaged groups, are fighting for.

And secondly, to bring it back to specifically queer issues:

Queer rep does not mean only gay rep.

Please, please understand: the queer community is more than just the L and the G. Those types of representation are important, and this is not to minimize people of those orientations--and believe me, I get the frustration of seeing characters that you relate to behave in a way that's different to how you think they would. But there are other people out there who see themselves in that character, whoever they are. Sometimes they are written vaguely to allow for others to feel included. This doesn't mean that explicit representation of one specific orientation is bad or unnecessary, but just that there are other kinds of rep out there. It isn't homophobic to not make two characters explicitly gay, or to headcanon two characters as something other than gay.

I'm just as queer as you. I have the same right to see myself in media as you do.

So please. If I say Spock is aro, or Sherlock is ace, or any of a multitude of other things--don't tell me I'm being homophobic. Don't tell me I'm wrong. The beauty of fiction, and fanfiction in particular, is that we can all be right.

I think fanfiction is one of the most potent ways of dealing with the unknowability of other people because I think we as gay people are constantly struggling with that. I think one of the only things that stops us as human beings from going crazy is being able to intuit the minds of other people and predict within reason what they’re going to do by reflecting off our experiences. Like if someone stubs their toe we can imagine how they would feel (big pain) and how they would react (big yell) because that’s what we’ve done before. And when they DO react that way it validates the fact that our experiences are things shared by other people and that our mind doesn’t exist independently among automatons. But like when you’re gay and you constantly see characters who SHOULD be gay ending up as straight it messes with that confidence you’ve built up over the years. Seeing people you can relate to not behave the way you’d expect based on your experiences…eventually reinforces the fact that there’s something flawed in YOUR conciousness. There’s a lack of control and a helplessness there that’s really terrifying in a deep way. Like there’s something (epistemologically? existentially?) terrifying about being gay in a homophobic world that goes beyond the social experience of homophobia…but fanfiction acts as a balm to that and lets you like…manifest a reality where people behave the way you would behave and just the physical reality of having a document where your intution about someone is a concrete reality is like…deeply healing imo

[elizabethrobertajones]

Hey Liz, question: why do you think this fandom got so protective of terrible women? Both Mary and Rowena are awful, selfish people with exactly 0 character development, and yet they somehow became precious protect at all cost? Are we so starved of representation? I don't get it. For me it's Jody and Donna all the way.

Heya. Well first of all “the fandom” seems to haaate Mary so you must be thinking of the weird narrow circle of people who actually enjoy her character like me and all the peeps I filtered out in season 12 who weren’t being awful about her to follow and support. >.> Aka “the fandom” if I had to generalise my impression of raw numbers, IS the reason why the people who like Mary are protective of her. Because there’s stuff like spnconfessions posting someone saying “I want Mary and Kelly to be stabbed hundreds of times at the end of the season” which… yiiiikes.

Rowena is more popular in my impression but then she has a charismatic actress who embedded herself in fandom immediately (she liked some of my Rowena meta and spec back in season 10!), and was always presented as a “villain” (although she has NEVER been a big bad of a season, always just along for the ride and almost ALWAYS in chains or captured) so at least it was not like she was living down anyone’s expectations except Crowley. 

ALSO it’s not a competition or an either or. I love Jody, and Donna, and Linda Tran, and Mary, and Rowena and Kelly Kline, and all the other characters who’ve passed over our screen. People probably get bored of me saying this but I *like* the show and its characters and its storylines until they give me strong reasons not to like them, and I don’t approach fictional characters with hostility or unless there’s a very strong personal aversion, a reaction as if I knew them in real life or they represent things FROM my real life. 

Even when they are written to be dark or messed up or bad people, if they’re fleshed out and there’s a good reason or a point to it all in the story, then I like it. I don’t need characters to be good and pure all the time for them to be worth my love, or why the heck would I like the Winchesters, right? 

I’m just trying to say, I think I have a different attitude to these characters than you do, because I see that the show has done some great things with them, including developing them a LOT, and they’re really interesting characters to me. 

I now have 3 fics on my Ao3 which have or are entirely from Mary’s POV because I find her a fascinating mess. I feel like I grew up knowing the mythology about her and only got to meet her as a real human last year, and I loved that she was human and real, as promised in the flashbacks but never given a chance for us to SEE. 

And Rowena is not a character I think anyone needs to DEFEND (except in the sense of omg stop putting her in chains or killing her off when she’s inconvenient) because she’s utterly in control of herself, her image, her goals, and yet she has a vulnerability and a pain to her dark past which makes her interesting. The more we learn about her the more we learn about how she became what she is when we first meet her, and 12x11 for me did some AMAZING stuff with Rowena that finished the process of making her softer and more friendly in that she’d forged a better alliance with the Winchesters and we saw her and Dean utterly vulnerable around each other, which makes for incredible character development. We were only just starting to get a real idea of the woman behind the appearance she makes of herself, but it’s been hinted all along how hard she had to fight to get what she wanted, and how she gravitates towards comfort and being looked after and using her power to get it because of how poorly she was treated? She’s much easier to sum up in a paragraph, while I’ve written pages and pages and pages about Mary in both meta and fic, but that doesn’t mean she’s less developed, she just has a smaller overall legacy in the show as when she comes back it will only be her 4th season to Mary’s overarching importance to *13* seasons.

And… UGH. I just rewatched 10x09 recently and it’s SO INTERESTING. I remember all that meta from the time, about Rowena paralleling John, her bad parenting to his, and she comes back now almost as a precursor to Mary, trying the waters with bringing Crowley’s mum back into his life to see how that all goes over, his disappointment, the way she DELIBERATELY manipulates him, makes him need her again, until he casts her out, their back and forth, their conviction to the end that they should have been the one to kill the other… Their revenge story… Crowley just wanting to know WHY she was such a bad parent, Rowena loving another boy but not him as a son, so it’s the utter opposite of “family don’t end in blood” - that their only tie IS their blood and they mutually loathe each other because of it. Because they can’t be rid of each other because of it… I mean it’s the dark mirror to Mary coming back in the sense that Rowena is absolutely unapologetically a bad parent when she returns. That Crowley, softened up by the last couple of seasons, seriously struggles with her return… The Crowley and Rowena stuff in season 10 is actually really interesting, even if some of it is pretty ridiculous in execution, the point of having it there is fascinating, especially when you marathon through and then join it up to season 11. 

None of that is meant to say Rowena is good, or stanning for her is, like, advocating her awful parenting as a pinnacle of goodness. It’s just saying, she’s a terrible person but a fascinating character, and why wouldn’t we enjoy her being fun and evil and unapologetic for that on our screens, just as much as we might like Jody being patient and kind and the sort of gentle, understanding motherly pinnacle of “good” mothers on the show. 

And Mary is WONDERFULLY in the middle of that. I don’t know if people are having issues with her just because they have issues with their own mothers or because of expectations that the show was deliberately subverting that people just didn’t gel with and so came at her all from the wrong angles expecting her to be domestic and to bring peace rather than conflict, but Mary is a *startlingly* good female character on the show, and she exists in the space between Jody, the pinnacle of being a “good” mother, and Rowena, the blatant “bad” mother, but as soon as Mary strays from being the pure saintly victim image that we had for 11 years, even the flashbacks never changing her position as a victim of the narrative despite trying to give her some more personality and just making her spunky on top of being pure, rather than deepening her… 

I mean one of my BFFs who hasn’t been watching the show so much lately really hated the idea of Mary coming back because she sees the boys as too old to be treated as “the boys” and Mary’s purpose to only be to heal and to protect them, and why would the show bring her back to deal with their mommy issues, it’s just too late, too little, how can you ever patch her back into their lives and fix everything? They’re too OLD to deal with their mommy issues.

And that’s literally the antithesis of what season 11 was doing: what it ACKNOWLEDGED was the issue with bringing Mary back, that she can’t be a nurturer, can’t do a fresh start on their issues. Can’t just make it all better by being there and putting band aids on their knees and tucking them into bed. They weren’t raised with that. They can’t RETROACTIVELY get it from her because it’s not age appropriate and they have developed as people.

And for the first time, Mary is allowed to just exist and wander around the Bunker and cut her hair and wear hunter-y clothes instead of that freakin’ nightgown, and UPSET them by not fitting in because there’s the way it feels like she SHOULD have been aka kissing boo boos, and the way they know she CAN’T be that because it’s weird but they still missed out on it, and the way she is how she is for real after only ever having images and dreams and conjured djinn versions or fake Heaven versions or people wearing her face, and so on and so on. Just a real flesh and blood woman who was manipulated literally to heaven and back by outside forces, trying to deal with losing *everything* over and over, and being presented with her weird family of adult sons and attached angel, clearly nursing depression and a total lack of direction and connection… 

I mean people connect with Mary for some pretty obvious reasons about motherhood and loss and depression all of which are represented in her weird situation with metaphorical links to real life feelings. Imagine she had post natal depression about Sam and look at season 12 again and *bam* she’s 100 miles deep and it huuuurts. I haven’t even had a baby let alone this entire analogy but I can see it right there in her story. I don’t need to RELATE directly to find it interesting? And there’s so much more about her beyond this one random thing I just picked up as an example. Imagining being in her shoes and then imagining how Sam and Dean have talked about her and seen her as the casual viewing audience is a STARK way to put her story in contrast to make sense.

Like, if you just allow Mary to be her own person with her own story and motives, there’s so much in there, that you don’t get if you just look at her like she could have been something to Sam and Dean that she wasn’t and immediately write her off as just as bad as Rowena - who is also far more complex than just a bad mother. If it’s these characters not living up to idea motherhood that makes you hate them that’s something you have to get over to see WHY people might like them, for the same reasons people can like flawed messed up non-mother characters. 

I mean Mary in season 12 functionally has a similar arc/intro to the story as JACK does, the same conflict about finding themselves in this world, the same drive to make it right, and Mary’s dealing with the PAST she’s fucked up, and Jack’s dealing with immediate present fuck ups and the weight of expectations of his FUTURE fuck ups that everyone wants him to do this that and the other… But Jack immediately got a ton of adoring fans and I would say fandom seems to lean pro-Jack, while it’s generally anti-Mary, despite the fact they have had very similar, parallel struggles to integrating into the world and dealing with expectations/problems.

But Jack is a cute as a button baby son for the fandom who can be easily forgiven for everything, and Mary is its flawed, messy mother. And you clearly seem to have the same knee jerk reaction that Good Mothers are characters to be rewarded and loved for their kindness and strength and flaws in acceptable amounts that do not harm their ability to parent well and be supportive and present. And Bad Mothers apparently can’t even be enjoyed as an interesting villain-but-not-bad-guy like Rowena who is out for herself unapologetically - a confidence trait that people CAN and should admire in obviously less “murder a bunch of people because they’re in the way” quantities to aspire to if they need a just a pinch of Rowena in their lives. And Mary who was a VICTIM in the narrative until 12x01, I have to repeat, and on earning her narrative freedom, aka not doomed by Heaven, and seen only through Sam and Dean’s eyes but allowed to be herself, abruptly goes in others’ eyes from sweet mother mary to being utterly ruined and the worst character. Because she couldn’t parent her ADULT sons while *grieving* her baby sons and husband, who not only is dead but she has to come to terms with what her death, her fuck up, did to him and did to her sons.

Season 12 HAS to be viewed through Mary’s POV when the episodes are about her, and she HAS to be given full compassion as a POV important character like you would do for Sam and Cas and Dean and now Jack, and Jody and/or Donna when they’re on screen, or Claire and Alex in their episodes. I mean 9x19 is from Alex and Jody’s POV. There are a couple of Winchester scenes but the emotional storytelling is ALL on Alex and Jody, to the point of them having all the opening and closing scenes, while Sam and Dean appear like outsiders to them. This same thing is used on Mary a few times - making us look at Sam and Dean from her eyes. 

12x03, also by Berens - because he’s amazing at this sort of thing - makes us look at them this way. It sets up how Sam and Dean *are* to Mary with the horrifying baby in the crib and the little ghost boy. Her lost children. And Sam and Dean blanking her out of working the case by accident because they’re so much more efficient with modern tech. Letting her solve it with old fashioned tech and application of heart. We see Mary’s entire process in this episode that leads to her leaving. It’s *beautiful*. Please go watch that episode from Mary’s POV.

(And enjoy Rowena being an unapologetic badass in the background :P) 

I am literally begging if you don’t understand and hate Mary in season 12 to try it again from her POV and be less precious about Sam and Dean and how much value she has determined only by how well she mothers them. 

I mean dammit I’m just gonna rec my own fic I wrote after 12x14 because I think it explains how I view Mary sympathetically and as a complex character without apologising for or defending her, just caring about her story and trying to understand her, more effectively than any meta I could write.

http://archiveofourown.org/works/10143074

But also just rewatch 12x01, 12x03, 12x06, 12x09, 12x14, 12x21 and 12x22 from Mary’s POV, even just her important scenes. Pause the episodes after she does stuff you struggle with and ask yourself how SHE would feel based on HER history if you’re having trouble getting into it. Remember how she saw Dean and Sam in 12x03 in the metaphors of the cursed burnt out baby boy and the lil ghost child because that DIRECTLY links to 12x22′s dream sequence. You’re going to see her suicidal, lost, confused, desperate to fix the mess she made… And ultimately in 12x23 she is vindicated for her deal with the AU being based on it NOT happening, and she’s the point from which it all came. Remember 4x03 Mary at that point, how she was an innocent victim as much as anyone else, being funneled into being “John and Mary, husband and wife” JUST because Heaven wanted it. How she’d already been raised as a hunter by her strict father and wanted to be FREE. How she has been un-free, how even her idea of freedom was all a manipulation by both heaven and hell, that she was a baby factory for the both of them. That her deal was for that freedom, but as poisoned as everything else that ever happened and her death in 1x01 is the punishment for trying to be free.

Remember that bringing her back sets her free but also takes away *everything* from her, including Sam and Dean, and leaves her with only her identity as a hunter to fall back on. And then they take away that too. 

Remember that Mary is as messed up as her boys, who we LOVE for being messed up, complicated human beings, and that her goodness as a mother is just one aspect of her character, but not the defining one we’re supposed to like her for.

Remember that all the images of Mary we see between season 2-6 are manipulations and lies and extrapolations in 2x20 of how DEAN feels about what Mary is/what he WANTED her to be, and the only real Mary we saw that whole time was the one in 1x09, who was as defensive of her boys as she was in season 12, and whose only real words were to APOLOGISE to Sam for what she’s done, a character arc she can’t pick up again from her POV until SEASON 12, even if it’s been thrice resolved for Sam. That her dying thoughts were knowing she’d doomed Sam. That she only understood her deal when it was too late and she was pinned to the ceiling. 

Remember that the reason she seems to be a bad mother in the story in season 12 is because they WANTED her to be that way, because they’re FREEING her of the image of what she was for 12 long years. They’re turning her into a real character. That it’s a calculated breakdown and DEVELOPMENT of her character beyond being a 1 dimensional saintly dead mother, whose fleshed out backstory made her more and more a tragic victim of circumstance and took away all her agency, her memories, and the last time we see her in 5x13 she is parroting the “angels are watching over you” line in a way that gives you the sickest dread of dramatic irony, as in that context it is about how her sons are about to DIE for this if the angels get their way. She’s helpless. She’s the buttmonkey of the apocalypse. 

Whatever else you feel about season 12 and Dabb and all, there was a huge effort from all the writers who touched her story - ALL of them - to free her and take this weight from her, to tie her into the current arc while respecting how the past would CRUSH her. And they DID crush her. And within that crushing, when exactly was she, the most emotionally scarred and messed up Winchester on the playing field that year, supposed to be a good mother to Sam and Dean when that definition seems to include selfless sacrifice and giving more of yourself? She thought that’s what she was doing with the BMoL, and it destroyed her all over again. It literally carved her out and left her empty. More people got hurt because she tried to do something to make it right. And she lost herself in the process. It’s not a subtle metaphor. Or how it was resolved with honesty and bringing the family back together. 

… You can probably tell we got an esspresso maker for Christmas by the length of this reply. Just… Argh, no. Mary is one of the most fascinating female characters and fuck the idea she has to be a good mum to be a good character or that we can only like the most pure characters. If she had been a good mum in season 12 she would have been PAINFULLY boring and flat and under-used. What would you have DONE with her? installed her in the Bunker to do nothing more than provide comfort at the start and end of each episode, and sometimes come along on safe easy hunts? Need to be rescued in all the dramatic moments because she couldn’t fuck up and cause something herself ever? She can be rescued NOW because she fucked up enough last season it’s a different aspect of her character to be in this position. Which she kinda got herself into by PUNCHING LUCIFER IN THE FACE. 

And if you can see Mary how I see her, then suddenly all her heart and kindness is there, she’s wonderful, she’s complex, she’s just fundamentally broken and messed up and had her own issues with Sam and Dean that came from this, that were explored and addressed FROM HER POINT OF VIEW, and helped her from HER OWN PERSPECTIVE to overcome the first hurdle of being reintegrated into the story. 

Just… give her a chance to be human. Everything you say you can’t see in her is right there when you do.