#smt gotou

[ya-kiri]

Isn't Yukio Mishima the inspiration for the character Gotou from SMT 1?

[toskarin]

so fucking funny to me that persona 5 named the soft pathetic boy character after fucking yukio mishima. what were they cooking

I mean, the soft and pathetic part makes sense when you remember that they were almost certainly basing him on "kochan"

[katsona-the-katsequel]

Addition to this: Thanks to SMT: if... and Kahn we know that the main instigators in Shin Megami Tensei exist in Persona. I believe that the would-be founders and members of the Order of Messiah and whoever was working for Gotou were absorbed by Kandori's SEBEC branch the moment the Karukozaka incident occured, preventing Gotou and Thorman from ever climbing to power in the Persona timeline. Said members were later picked up or silenced by the multiple organizations that followed, and thus, the apocalypse that reigns in the original SMT timeline never touched this one. Only anime school life over here, folks.

How do you feel about Nobu? (If...'s male protagonist, who ends up in a completely different apocalyptic timeline)

I'll be honest, most of what I know you already said it in the ask XD

I'll give it a go anyways.

I know there's a manga that deepens his personality, but considering that Yumi is his "canon" route, I can already see how he differs from Tamaki. I believe Nobu to be a more straightforward person, who has a slightly more defined view of good and evil than Tamaki does (a personality that, though at first glance seems more at place in the Persona timeline, ultimately results in him not seeing the bigger picture or double intentions).

Both of Tamaki and Nobu's responses to trauma seem to be the same, though. Distance themselves from the object of trauma. Karukozaka may not exist in Nobu's timeline anymore, but he did distance himself from Yumi after all was over.

The ironic thing is that in the end, the fact that Karukozaka returned to the human world in Tamaki's timeline seems to have helped her blend with the students and hide from the eyes of supernatural organizations; a conflict that seems to be Nobu's issue in Kahn.

Now that I think about it, Yumi caused the apocalyptic event in Nobu's timeline around the same time Persona 1 took place in Tamaki's. Really makes you think.

I really need to read that manga. I need to know what was different in the Persona timeline for the other supernatural organizations to slowly disappear and/or evolve into the Conspiracy. Maybe the existence of a demon-alert Nanjo and Kirijo Group?

[nyamcattt]

i wanted to do a redraw of megan thee stallion’s cover and a friend recommended smt nocturne

[bunibeeb]

Raidou and Gotou ~

Thank you all new followers, I really appreciate it!

[digitalriyasaga]

So, I decided to kill both of them. There should be no Kingdom of God on earth. And no demon invasion.

[sorenblr]

DEVIL SUMMONER: THE FLU RECOVERY FINALE

TONIGHT, June 7th, 9:30 PM EST/8:30 PM CST, we’re getting to the bottom of this case in our final stream of Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. The Soulless Army! The saga that began one glorious 4/20 evening is coming to end as we yeet Gotou and one lucky demon into space before doing the fucking SMT timeline dungeon. Will you be there, or will you... be square??

Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/streamingknowledge

Archive: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXYyuYZQg2tPKOB-eS7BYrw?view_as=subscriber

[eirikrjs]

so old is SMT is Western (Law) vs Japan (Chaos) vs balance (both) and new SMT is Western (Law) vs Lucifer (Chaos) vs Japan (neutral)

Nah, it's more like that in SMT1 specifically the alignments act as all-encompassing absolutes; ideology matters more than provenance. The one big distinction in SMT1 compared to many of its sequels is that Deity is Light-Law. My Japan vs. Western comparison the other day really only makes sense in light of the first act with Gotou/Thorman.

That said, your contrasting point is more valid in subsequent games.

[snugglyporos]

So I can’t help but think that the Persona games are trying as hard as they possibly can to get away from the thing they’re a spinoff of. Which may explain why the nonsense in each game gets further and further away. Like, it feels like it was made by two different people putting it together. Example:

Persona 1: Guy #1: what if demons invaded an people had to fight them using things called personas? Guy #2: and then they fight god, right? 

Persona 2: Guy #1: what if rumors changed reality?  Guy #2: and then they fight god, right?

Persona 3:  Guy #1: what if there was an extra secret hour that only some people could see? Guy #2: and then they fight god, right?

Persona 4: Guy #1: what if there was a secret world inside the tv and the heroes had to solve a serial murder case? Guy #2: and then they fight god, right?

Persona 5: Guy #1: What if a group of heroes changed the hearts of bad people who the law couldn’t or wouldn’t touch to right wrongs? Guy #2: And then they fight god, right?

If none of the divine stuff makes any sense, it’s because it’s a holdover from the SMT games, which are themselves a spinoff of the Megami Tensei games, which are themselves based on a book series in the 1980′s. A very, very weird book series. A book series whose plot is... uh... this:

In Jusho High School, there is a divide among the student body; those of the gifted side and those of the normal side. Students in the gifted class are normally exceedingly intelligent, while those in the normal class tend to be academic under-achievers.

Akemi Nakajima, of the school's gifted class and a computer genius, is assaulted by Hiroyuki Kondo of the normal class under the orders of Kyoko Takamizawa, who had been angered by Nakajima rejecting her romantic advances. Kyoko had told Kondo that Nakajima had been flirting with her rather than the other way around, prompting the attack.

The normal students were rarely punished for their actions against other students out of fear and pity on the part of faculty. Battered and bloody, Nakajima comes home and decides to finish his Demon Summoning Program, a work in progress of his, to exact revenge. He discovers that his computer is not powerful enough to use the program, so he must use the school's Computer Aided Instruction (CAI) room's host computer.

Sneaking into the school at night, Nakajima draws a pentagram in the computer room and attempts to run the program, but is found by Professor Iida. Nakajima has a tense conversation with the professor, who becomes afraid of him, but he is able to run the program regardless. Nakajima commands the program to kill Kondo and Kyoko, which causes a tremor in the school but otherwise appears to not work.

A week later while Professor Iida is teaching a computer class in the CAI room with Nakajima and Kyoko present. Suddenly a voice resounds from the host computer. A demon, Loki, trapped inside the host computer, uses the monitors in the CAI room to hypnotize the entire class except Nakajima, Kyoko and Professor Iida. The demon follows Nakajima's request and commands the hypnotized students to kill Kyoko. They then lure Hiroyuki Kondo,into the room and kill him as well. Professor Iida is also killed in the chaos, which upsets Nakajima somewhat: Loki had followed the program's command, but Nakajima had not specified any restrictions.

Drunk with power, Nakajima at first begins to comply with Loki's request for female sacrifices, offering him his female professor, Ohara, who proceeds to be metaphysically assaulted by Loki through the use of a helmet-like contraption connected to the summoning program. Permanently damaged by the encounter, Ohara eventually becomes Loki's loyal servant and helps Loki assume physical form in the human world through Nakajima's program as well as her own connection to the demon.

Nakajima meets Yumiko Shirasagi during this time, a newly-transferred student with whom he feels a strange connection to. Unbeknownst to him, she had witnessed the bizarre encounter with Ohara and Loki, but had dismissed it as illusion and trickery. Eventually, the demon demands that Nakajima offer him Yumiko, which Nakajima refuses to do. He then advises Yumiko to stay away from the school in an attempt to save her. That night, Yumiko ignores Nakajima's advice and returns to the school, prompting the attention of Loki. Nakajima attempts to regain control of Loki, but the demon mocks Nakajima's attempts to command him.

Loki summons himself into the physical world through the CAI room computer and goes on a killing spree, free from Nakajima's control. Jealous of Yumiko, Ohara attacks and wounds her. Nakajima summons a benign, loyal demon, Cerberus, to help him battle Loki, to no avail. During the battle, Yumiko is possessed by Izanami, of whom Yumiko is a reincarnation, and burns Loki with her powers. In addition to dealing with Cerberus, Loki is distracted enough so that Yumiko and Nakajima can escape through a dimensional warp to Asuka created by Izanami, although Loki succeeds in fatally wounding Yumiko as she flees.

Still influenced by Izanami, Yumiko tells Nakajima that she will die, but could be revived if her body is brought to Izanami's tomb. Yumiko dies, but with the help of Cerberus, Nakajima complies with her dying request and travels to the Shirasagi Mount, where he meets Yomotsu-Shikome, a loyal servant of Izanami's.

Yomotsu-Shikome provides Nakajima with two mystical spheres, and guides him onward. With Ohara's help, Loki is able to follow them to Asuka and Shirasagi Mount, where he kills Yomotsu-Shikome. Izanami meets Nakajima and Yumiko in the tomb, but she is attacked by Loki before the resurrection can take place. Nakajima summons Cerberus to help, but his companion is also no match for Loki, and is defeated. Desperate, Nakajima uses the two spheres that Yomotu-Shikome gave him, which ignite the pomade-covered floor of the tomb, summoning Hinokagutsuchi, who in turn transforms into a powerful, mystical fire sword, with which Nakajima is at last able to kill Loki. Izanami succeeds in reviving Yumiko, but keeps her with her, stating that Yumiko has great hidden powers within her with which they could battle evil.

Meanwhile, Ohara, impregnated by Loki, attempts to communicate with him, not knowing that he has perished. This makes her accidentally contact the demon Seth.

Basically, it’s a bunch of insane nonsense that makes no god damned sense. But someone took a look at this, and went ‘you know, this looks like a good thing to make into a game series!’ Also, that’s the plot of book one. There are many others. 

But in case you thought I was exaggerating how nonsensical and weird the SMT series started, here’s a brief synopsis of the first SMT’s first chapter: 

The news of demonic invasion soon gets out, however, and the American military, led by Ambassador Thorman, declares martial law in Tokyo as they try to get rid of the demons. A reactionary Japanese militia force, led by Gotou, rallies against the cordoning imposed by the Americans and they begin working with the demons, whom they see as the ancient spirits of the land sent to create a utopia, to prevent the Americans from destroying Tokyo. A third resistance faction, led by the Heroine, seeks to keep the Americans and the reactionary Japanese forces from clashing and getting Tokyo caught in the middle. The party meets the Heroine, whom turns out to be the sacrificial woman from their collective dream. Despite their efforts, she is captured by Gotou's forces and Yuriko appears to personally oversee her public execution, claiming that once she is gone, Yuriko can be with the Protagonist eternally.

The Protagonist can choose to align himself with any of the three factions, but no matter what, the Heroine will be rescued and join his side, the two forces will clash, and Ambassador Thorman - the deity/demon Thor in disguise - will launch nuclear missiles on Tokyo, destroying nearly everything. The Protagonist, the Law Hero, and the Chaos Hero only survive thanks to the sacrifice of the Heroine, who sends them to the Diamond Realm, another plane of reality, with her magic.

So for those of you keeping track, the plot is that Thor, impersonating an american ambassador, nukes tokyo, while one of our protagonists is executed by a woman claiming she wants to own our main protagonist, because that woman is actually Lilith. It’s nonsense. 

Anyway, it ends like this: 

After defeating Asura Lord at the behest of Law, Michael at the request of Chaos, or both to restore the balance, the Protagonist is teleported to the roof of the Cathedral above the clouds. A Chaos-aligned Protagonist is congratulated by Louis Cyphre, who reveals his true form as Lucifer and vows to lead the world into a golden age of freedom. On the Law path a messenger of God welcomes the Protagonist, and tasks him with preaching God's word so that all mankind may be welcomed into the Thousand-Year Kingdom. A Neutral Protagonist is greeted by the figure of Taishang Laojun, a being of balance, who thanks him for his efforts on behalf of the universe, and urges that the hero build a new future for mankind, "built by neither reliance on God nor demons, but by the hands of people themselves."

For those keeping track, it turns out that this was all a fight between god and lucifer over the world. So if you’re wondering why at the end of Persona 5, the protagonist becomes Lucifer and fights God, it’s because they’re referencing the chaos ending of SMT1. 

Something that does not at all fit with the rest of the game, nor does it fit with anything else. It just sorta comes out of nowhere. Honestly, you’d never understand that ending unless you bothered to play games from 1992. Which I imagine most people haven’t. 

Honestly, I keep thinking that the persona games are written by sane people and then there’s a room with the original creators and they just keep having to appease them by putting their insane nonsense in the game. 

[tsukimori-san]

Sorry if I'm being a buzz kill but it's not quite that

Gotou's name in SMT 1 in Kanji is written as 五島 which means 5 islands which is in reference to the 5 main islands of Japan

Gouto the cat's name is written as 業斗 which means karma which is a reference to his curse (his full name 業斗童子 roughly translates to cursed child)

THE CAT????

[nagabenang]

Well, now thinking it with clear head, I think the main SMT series is kind of ... stepping into the 'wrong’ way. 

The mainline SMT, or rather, the first SMT game, was made in mindset of “strive for difference”. They were avoiding doing the same thing as other franchise would. When Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy was happening, they set their new game in real world, with real political issue, used a semi-real figure (Gotou), and set the struggle of order vs chaos rather than good vs evil (and in the Neutral Ending, it shows that the struggle itself was rooted in the balance of self, a Yin/Yang, not just about a war between human vs monstrosities). In enemy designs, to avoid generic-looking demon/monster, they consulted the original folktales, mythologies, scriptures; and steps even further with Kaneko’s bold style, which more often than not, took inspiration from his fascination of fashions.

That’s what in my mind for a while now, and seeing the new ... hm, “addition”, for Deep Strange Journey, had me think that from now on, the main series are going to took the safe way. As in, they’re going to blend with other franchises selling points. I would guess that in the next few games, Persona series would toppled the main SMT series in their attractiveness. And not just because it’s Persona, which had much more larger fanbase for their setting and more approachable characters.

The first four main SMT are difficult to like (the fourth here is Strange Journey, and perhaps we should exclude II from it), but they have strong ‘voices’ behind it. The kind that repulse you at first, but gradually you come to appreciate as you pondered their designs. The recent main SMT games ... just does not have that same strength, that same resolve. I would guess it’s because the new staffs are young, and for that, they haven’t found their own ‘voices’, their own ‘reasons’. They’re still following the steps their mentor left for them, still trying to figure out the whys and the hows and the dos and do nots.

And I think that’s what’s sets them apart, although being under the same umbrella of “SMT”. For best outcome, let’s just hope I’m wrong here, and in SMT V, the dead ex-friends would just stay dead.

tl’dr: I will still buy Deep Strange Journey ... as long as they didn’t do the worst imaginable butchery to that game.

[digitalriyasaga]

I absolutely do not trust either of these people. “This big bad enemy is going to ruin civilisation unless you give us your power!” Especially not Mr. “ Together, we will make Japan great again!” American over there. Do I really have to side with one of these two?

[digitalriyasaga]

[eirikrjs]

As expected, the duality of responses to the Raidou nationalism post from the other day!

I actually found and looked into the linked Japanese blog a year and a half ago as part of a planned post compiling all the instances of nationalism in Atlus games, but lost steam on it in favor of the fan myths. However, notes in the draft do have something to say to the top anon about Admiral Yamamoto and the identity of the "cursed person":

It's not Admiral Yamamoto: in 1931 he was rear admiral using this word: 海軍少将 (kaigun shosho) and he was not yet important

Yamamoto has apparently been the prevailing theory about the identity for years, but it looks like I found that unconvincing when I was researching back then.

In the draft I also anticipated many of the the same reactions I received since the recent post, lol:

intro about strawmen or whataboutism from other countries' games and nationalism (call of duty) and say that while we recognize that, this post isn't about them. However, we may still make comparisons to other media should it be instructive. This is not about nationalism, Japanese nationalism, this is specifically about examples of nationalism found in Atlus games, concerningly those made by Maniacs Team who are currently in the driver's seat of Shin Megami Tensei. Why SMT1's gotou/thor is not the same; much more essential to plot, nuke awareness WW2 analogue rather than literal speedbump like xi wangmu

I did also receive some comments about SMT1's scenario and Gotou/Thor but I think characters who are portrayed as nationalist in the game is different than actual themes of nationalism in the text, especially if the game doesn't force you to agree with said characters, and SMT doesn't even if the outcome is ultimately the same.

Another anon had an interesting comment that they saw Law and the angels as representing American imperialism and Christian fascism. I don't think that's too relevant to SMT1 since its Law is an inclusive concept, but the imperialism could be valid elsewhere. I also don't think Law is ever a comment on Christofascism more than it is a Japanese comment on how they perceive monotheisms.

[eirikrjs]

El Cantare would be grouped with which race of demons?

El Cantare? The guy who heads the Happy Science cult?

SMT doesn’t really deal in actual, living cult leaders but if there’s a gun to my head the answer would be Meta going by Gotou’s example.