#shuro........ is a little more complicated
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also i think if roleswap laios and canon laios met theyd immediately start fighting.
#canon laios would blurt out 'why do you look like our dad' and fisticuffs ensue.#shuro........ is a little more complicated#if canon shuro doesnt think too hard about it and just treats the other him like a stranger then theres no problem#on the other hand i imagine he holds himself to high standards and if he sees his other self doing things he considers improper or uncouth.#i imagine hed only speak up if he saw it happen A Lot like hed pull him aside like hey... what the fuck#thered be a bit of 'holy shit i woulda turned out like THAT??' on both sides#roleswap shuro would often get frustrated but i think hed understand that like. thats how the culture is like he lived it too#but i think similarly hed watch laios steamroll og shuro and eventually be like. DUDE. just say something#shorter fuse lmao. anyways still turning this AU over in my head#how much more forward can shuro be before hes unbelievably out of character...#and what if they switched universes!!!!#if laios switched. it would be immediately obvious something is up in the og universe but it may be chalked up to like#a weird mood..... though maybe the party starts to wonder 'hey... is it not possible this is a shapeshifter' 😭#but og laios in the roleswap universe...#tbh havent thought too hard on what the party dynamics in that universe might be like assuming all else is the same save for the roleswap#i imagine chilchuck would still get on alright as long as hes being paid upfront and laios is still attentive/ recognises his abilities#and limitations also. marcille................................... hmm#she might treat him more formally and be less close.... may perceive him as more threatening at first meeting#(in terms of like. 'taking falin away' i mean if that makes sense)#but well. u kno how in canon laios Does notice a lot of things about his companions and has a very pragmatic view that surprises them#and they dont tend to notice until he says it aloud because its often overlooked cos of his. everything else.#well. id imagine roleswap laios still notices things but simply would not say it aloud.#the party would also be like .. dude... did he hit his head#if SHURO swapped...................... well it depends when exactly it happened#i imagine it could be a bigger issue with the retainers#im losing steam cos my lower back hurt so bad adgfsdfg i cant get a good position on this chair#but for shuro himself i imagine it would be nightmarish lmao.#roleswap (henceforth RS) shuro would wake up as an adult with the retainers like. ??? was that all a dream?? did i never make it out#meanwhile og shuro ending up god knows where..........#if he ended up with the retainers again he might not immediately realise somethings amiss and try to act normally
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look, the thing with Toshiro is that he is not a bad guy, I don't think he would work out with Falin no matter the case, but he's not a bad guy. He is just a guy in a foreign land, and he was sheltered as a rich guys son who has retainers instead of friends, he doesn't know how to act towards people.
He is friends with Laios, yes things in ep 17 came to a boil and Toshiro finally exploded, but that doesn't mean he really hates him. He might not be the best friend Laios imagined him to be, but he doesn't hate the guy despite what he said. Yes, I'm sure he was genuinely bothered by the way Laios acts like the rest of the party, sans Falin, but him exploding at Laios because it's the worst possible time is not the same as him secretly always hating him.
At the time things break bad, had just had a party wipe where not only did they lose to a dragon, the woman he was infatuated with didn't leave with them. He did what he thought was best, get skilled retainers and head back into the dungeon. He has been fighting monsters through the dungeon, not resting, sleeping or eating for days. He finds out the same girl he likes was revived with dark magic, then turned into a Chimera that tears through his retainers, and almost kills them. As he's panicking Laios keeps saying the wrong thing at the wrong time and he finally explodes.
People are not just who they are at their worst moments, just like they're not who they only who they are at the best moments in their life. He's not an asshole for believing Marcille is dangerous because of her using dark magic when he thinks it turned Falin into a chimera and the social norms is dark magic is evil. Especially when Falin became the most powerful monster in the dungeon capable of using magic that slaughtered his retainers and every other adventurer in a few minutes.
*Spoilers for the manga*
When he's had time to think and get some rest and food, Toshiro is on Laios' side, willing to fight elite elven dungeon specialists on his behalf.
Also I know Laios is the fandom's precious little autistic bean, but he isn't guiltless in their relationship. Sure, there was not a malicious bone in Laios' body, but it doesn't change that he saw a foreigner in a bar and blasted him with questions without asking him his name. Yes, Toshiro should have explained, but everyone in the Touden party is neurodivergent, you cannot change my mind. Sometimes it is easier to avoid awkwardness by not correcting people when they get your name wrong. Toshiro didn't think he's be a part of Laios' party for years, he thought it was a meeting with a stranger in a bar, and then he's Shuro for 2 years to everyone in the party and the adventurers community.
People are complicated, and they should be allowed to be. Toshiro might not get a lot of chapters, but it is clear he is not just some asshole who has secretly hated Laios, it's just at the worst moment of his life after a series of terrible weeks things come to a boil. The whole manga/anime has more nuanced characters than any I've read/watched.
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do you have any tips for writing a low empathy character who isn't evil? Or how to make an interesting apathetic character who's a thoughtless sort of evil? These are two different chatacters btw-
I tried looking up examples and stuff but uh. It's been a bit fruitless.
Honestly it's not too hard! Having low empathy just means we're bad at automatically "connecting" to the feelings of other people. You can come to understand it's not even a character flaw once you uncouple the idea that Empathy = Kindness. And apathy, well, that one's a bit more complicated imo.
Low Empathy
In English, it's just unfortunately super common to conflate Empathy and Compassion. To have compassion is to be aware of the suffering of another person, and ergo, want to help stop it. To be empathetic is to identify with and understand the feelings of another person. These are different things.
For an example in action; imagine a medic with a patient whose shoulder is dislocated, and xey'll need to pop that arm back in place in order for the patient to feel better.
A medic feeling EMPATHY for that patient is having an emotional response to what xey're seeing. Xey might have a tingly "ghost pain" thinking about the injury, and xey might feel guilty xey're going to put them in more agony, but also joy because this patient is going to feel much better in just a moment.
A medic feeling COMPASSION for that patient is thinking about how the shoulder must be causing a lot of pain, and knows xey have the skill to fix it. Xey know from xeir own experience that pain sucks and so it is a bad thing that needs to go away. It will hurt a little more for a moment, but then there will be immediate relief.
This is imo, why a lot of low empathy people are "bad at" comforting people without going to Autism College where they give you the scripts of Shit Neurotypicals Say. We're not trying to be selfish when we end up making "comfort sessions" about ourselves-- that's what we think empathy is, because we don't have a lot of it to really know what you want.
Like, doesn't it make sense to you? "I don't know what you're feeling. Here's a similar situation I've been though. I must know what you're feeling-- does that make you feel better? That you aren't alone? I think that's what empathy is, am I right?"
A LOT of low empathy people go into medical fields, the funeral industry, and disaster relief. We often really do want to help people so seek these fields out, or when we get there, just end up not getting burnt out like our high-empathy peers!
Apathy
As for the apathetic character, honestly, I'd suggest thinking about your story's themes. Villains are very special to me and I always try to handle them with care. What are you trying to say is bad to not care about in your work? How does their apathy play into the story you're trying to tell?
A Captain Planet villain is completely selfish, and exists only to benefit itself by exploiting nature in some way. Then the Planeteers show up and punch it in the face. Boiled down to its barest, most simple essentials; "We have conflicting goals and so I will stop you."
Personally I find total apathy to be something not especially compelling in villains, for that reason. Like, if you really don't care about anything, why bother with the trouble of going against the protag? Motivation is meant to be MOTIVATING.
(also ngl I'm on the Shadow As A Hero sort of bandwagon where I find it much funnier for the simple apathetic cool edgy guy to be the funniest person on your tennis team)
Dungeon Meshi has TWO characters who struggle with apathy, and are both antagonists at some points in the story, but never villains. Shuro and Mithrun. The theme of Dungeon Meshi is the beauty and complexity of life, the value of living, and how our connections to others changes the people we are. Food is a metaphor for bonding, self-care, and understanding.
For Shuro, he begins the story as someone who's both been encouraged to bottle up his emotions for the sake of other people, as well as to not actually consider the emotions of those lower-born than him. He's from a very different place than the other members of his party, and this causes friction as class, culture, and sophisticated, refined, weapons-grade autism clashes.
When the woman he loves is eaten by a dragon, he doesn't stop to tell her brother and """childhood friend""" what he's planning, as if they both wouldn't run in and get hurt. He owns demi-humans. He doesn't consider his own needs or the needs of his rescue team of loyal vassals. As a result, he's too weak to continue, losing a fistfight with one of the main characters, Laios.
After this, he connects with him for the very first time, and reaches out to him by giving him an important magic item. There's even a MASSIVE moment where he outright tells Laios that his ability to be so open (read: not have to mask his autism) is something he envies, breaking through that veil of apathy he wears.
The story Dungeon Meshi is telling here is that it is important to value the needs of yourself and of others. Shuro's apathy towards his own needs in a bid to prove his love weakened him. In acting like he was above his old teammates, he never spoke to them like people to smooth out his issues. He's never even noticed how much his vassals love and care for him.
(and the incredible irony is not lost on me, that Shuro's name is because Laios mispronounced it and was never corrected... while Shuro never noticed that Izutsumi had the unwanted name "Asebi" forced onto her when she was "taken in" and made his slave.)
See how that comes back to the theme? Shuro doesn't exist to just "be some asshole" or act like a villain. He has a full character arc that contributes to the narrative.
For Mithrun? I won't even spoil it. Go read Dungeon Meshi. Watch elf depression. We love a king with strabismus.
Anyway,
If you ever need good personal resources on any stigmatized mental condition, I've found it's usually productive to go into the #Actually (Thing) tag here on Tumblr. You can find people posting about basically anything. I found a lot of really good resources on NPD that way.
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What do you think about Shuro? And more specifically his relationship with Laios, and idk if you talk about ships but what are your thoughts on laishuro
I have this headcannon that Laios has some sort of unrequited crush on Shuro just because it's sorta funny
I ship pretty much everything. Like, as default I think everyone should kiss everyone 👍
If I'm honest I'm not much of a Shuro fan, he's a little boring to me and reactions to the chimera episode made me dislike him a bit lmao.
Ignoring the fandom I like him as a character and I LOVE his fight with Laios. Shuro's relationship to Laios is my favorite part of that character so laishuro pretty much saves him for me.
In universe Shuro is said to be quite the introvert even for people from his country. He's not the standard for someone from the eastern archipelago and it bothered me a bit when people used that to justify how he wasn't honest to Laios. I understand the idea that he comes from somewhere where reading social cues is not only expected but required but he's also someone who avoids confrontation and is quiet/shy in general.
Here's a bit from Maizuru's description from the adventurer's bible
"People tend to describe Shuro as "drab" and "shy" (...)" so specifically HE IS the exact type of person who would cause the biggest misunderstanding with Laios, just compare him to how his retainers or even his father and brothers act.
It took them saying they used ancient magic on Falin/seeing chimera Falin for him to finally snap, everything else he decided to just take it cause he thought it was better to take it than to confront Laios directly.
So besides the cultural differences you have to take into consideration this was pretty much the perfect storm brewing for that confrontation, and it's as much who Shuro is as a person and who Laios is as person that caused it.
I also disagree that the fight was a "they're both in the wrong" situation. Don't get me wrong, Laios was VERY culturally insensitive to Shuro and even more insensitive to his feelings, but there was nothing he could have done differently with the information that was available to him.
Specifically I see this comic being used to justify how Laios was to blame too, making Shuro into the victim
Like that's a major white guy move but he DIDN'T HEAR Shuro's name and Shuro never corrected him. I'd understand it if his reaction was "Your name is too complicated so I'll call you Shuro instead" that would be a major dick move, but Laios did not hear his name because Toshiro mumbled it, and for someone that forgot Kabru's name several times I imagine he made an effort to remember Shuro's.
Laios never met someone from the eastern archipelago before this, nobody ever explained to him he wasn't acting in an appropriate manner and most of all he thought they were friends. He trusted Shuro to set boundaries for him, he always respects boundaries that are set even when he doesn't fully understand them (Recalling the "I forgot about feelings.." when Chilchuck says it feels wrong to eat merman)
Instead of explaining ANYTHING to Laios, Shuro instead held it all in until it exploded all at once, he blamed Laios for not knowing something he couldn't know, and accused him of not being serious about saving his own sister.
Just imagine how this must have felt for Laios, everyone is always underestimating how serious he is, everyone accuses him of being stupid, clueless, and now this guy is telling him he isn't serious about saving the person he loves the most in the world and wants to protect always. To me this wasn't a "they're both in the wrong" situation, Shuro is far more in the wrong than Laios. But that's just how I see it.
That all being said, they understood each other finally and made peace after that fight.
And several times after this we see that Shuro really cares for Laios, and Laios still wants to be his friend. He even offered to save Laios if he fails (and he's sure he's gonna fail). So their relationship is dear to me, especially cause after this they finally have the foundation for a true mutual friendship <3
I think my dislike of Shuro comes from relating to him to be honest, it happens often that I see my own failures on a character and get angry at them for being angry at myself lmao. I also got a little annoyed cause I only saw people defending him, apparently those were made as a response to hate he had gotten? But since I never actually seen the hate it just felt annoying to see Shuro being white knighted.
Anyway I love the two of them together and I'm really happy they finally understood each other better. laishuro might be my favorite Laios ship, one sided crushes are great.
#Sorry I dont like being negative and I hope this wasnt too mean towards Shuro#its hard to be objective about him cause of personal feelings but I tried#Dungeon Meshi#Shuro#Laios Touden#Ask#Longpost#Rant#long post#Oh yeah I've said it before but I live under a rock I rarely know whats happening in fandom#might be part of the reason why only the shuro defenses found their way to me#dunmeshi thoughts
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Long text 😭
I made this a long time ago and now I don't like it very much, but I still like how it represents how I perceive Laios and Shuro's relationship and how Laios more quickly accepts (without thinking too much) what he feels for Shuro.
Shuro is more complicated, I think he likes Laios a lot!! (even in the manga you can see how he recognizes all of Laios' positive points 😭😭 he doesn't doubt for a second that Laios is a good person) To the point that he HATES him because he interferes with his entire ideas/personal life projects (internalized homophobia of course)
Shuro wishes not to feel anything while Laios embraces these new unknown feelings, which he does not know how to define well because love was something unthinkable for him who had little interest in normal human rituals (?) and I suppose that before Shuro he wasn't really interested (I don't want to be misunderstood, I consider that Laios is so sweet and loving with everyone! And he loves his friends but at times he also shows himself as someone bored of normality and I think that includes love...)
Something I love about Laios is his interest in Shuro. Personally, I think it's funny to see him so interested in Shuro. Shuro on Laio's head is cool and he doesn't hide that admiration at all and it's like a way to see an excited side of Laios for an ordinary human and not a monster (?)
The reality is that these are all my headcanons, nothing is really that black or white but I like to talk about them!! And how I particullary see them.
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Finally saw the episode and...
I don't really think Shuro hates Laios? Like yes, he might find him annoying and as he said, he envies Laios, but hate? Nah, I don't see it.
He probably just feel conflicted about him, after all, he and Laios are so different from each other.
The fight was just... I don't know. It seemed more like people sorting out a disagreement in the wrong way more than a real fight with real anger.
And after all, he took Laios' advice, ate and went back to the surface. If you really hate someone, you wouldn't listen to them (in my opinion).
The thing with proposing to Falin without even telling her Shuro liked her is uhh, cringe. It's the same thing as bottling up his dislike of Laios, but he's bottling up his love for Falin instead.
He does like the traits Falin shares with Laios, which makes it a little bit of a hypocrite, but Falin is also her own person, her and Laios are not just a copy-paste of each other. Falin is more than the traits Shuro glorifies of her, of course, and that's something he fails to see and hopefully it gets acknowledged in the future.
He's a bit of a hypocrite, he basically hid his dislike of Laios and that's a coward move, but he does not hate Laios and he idealizes Falin.
He can be as upset as he wants with Marcille but he would have done the same thing if he had been there, the problem is that he wasn't.
Ultimately he gave Laios the bell, which means he's reluctantly trusting him to defeat the Dungeon Lord.
There's the thing with him having servants and shit, but I don't really thinks that's his fault. His clan already had them, he grew up in that environment and after this episode I can tell he really treats them with respect. I even dare to say that he has some affection for them.
My conclusion is: He's not as dislikable as people made him to be. He needs to improve, yes, but he's not the devil, he's just a very complicated man who needs to grow as a person.
#dungeon meshi#shuro dungeon meshi#laios touden#falin touden#marcille donato#dunmeshi#delicious in dungeon#dunmeshi spoilers
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yo mutual i love ur tags fr because like u took the words right of my mouth i was so baffled how ppl would side with one more than the other because the autism pvp felt so real to me that i related to Both of them rlly a lot like. So much so it has cemented itself as rlly one of my fave scenes ever because it was a Step up for growth like that fight made them both better people . and it makes me mad ppl belittle toshiros experiences and like ignore his autism for the sake of pitting two bad bitches against each other Good Lord. The Nuance. There is Nuance. and ppl who ignore it just feels so personal to me as an autistic asian person who's been told that there's no way they're not "normal" like ive not been masking and not even like That well either.
Toshiro to me is like a similar vibe of Autism to Mob aka Shigeo Kageyama MP100 where he represses so much of his true feelings and opinions and emotions that he will just blow up one day (validly!!!) !!! like. let him be autistic in peace. not everything has to be a moral failure and not everything has to revolve around Laios just because hes the main character of Dunmeshi. Like they were both so relatable it hurts me...
not me spelling empathized as emphasized lmao
but yeah anyways I really interpret the shuro and laios conflict as just two autistic people who just don’t mesh naturally? At the very least, it’s a complication between two people with very different cultures.
Both laios and toshiro are people who don’t exactly fit in. On shuro’s side, the source of his ‘otherness’ is a little redirected (is that the word?) because his status and nationality already set him apart on the island, but even back home he was reserved and didn’t socialize well. He struggles to connect with others and has a hard time being sincere!!! the argument between him and laios isn’t an evil neurotypical vs blorbo autistic, it’s conflict-avoidant autistic vs social cue blind autistic!
There isn’t really a right or wrong side here, Shuro tried communicating in the way he knew how, but he and laios just simply don’t understand each other’s languages. Their fight is a reset for the both of them; now they each know a vital fact about each other! Laios knows that Shuro has a hard time verbalizing discomfort, and shuro now knows that Laios needs to be told things to understand them. Now they can both find a middle ground and properly compromise between their two opposites.
and it’s important to note that if laios did know he was making shuro uncomfortable, he would stop as best as he knew how, all the way. This guy takes boundaries seriously, as long as there are clear lines to what those boundaries are. And he’s attentive to other’s needs! (See: him and chilchucks friendship. They understand each other very well, I could write a whole meta on it)
Now that he and shuro are seeing eye to eye, their friendship can now progress in a healthier fashion! This fight isn’t the end of the world. (Honestly having a fist fight is like third base to me but we won’t speak of that) Toshiro isn’t evil, he’s just a really cool foil to Laios, and their disagreement serves to establish important parts of their characters and to progress both their character arcs 👍
#Also YESSS he is so similar to mob psycho. Repressing until you can’t anymore and have to beat someone up 😎✌️#Maintagging this bc I’m tired of the hate. Drown em out#toshiro nakamoto#laios touden#astronomically random#astronomical asks
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a kiss with a fist and such
i'm working on a lil somethin something where chilchuck and laios get into a fistfight at a bar and then make out. here's a really cringe aperitif to set up the conflict. it's pre-canon, i guess?? falin, namari and shuro are there. unfortunately for them.
nothing much happens in this excerpt but the final will involve romantic interests being violent to each other. i'd recommend not reading it if you're sensitive to that, but it's nothing too far outside the realm of what is portrayed in the manga lol
Laios had read volumes upon volumes of advice for the aspiring dungeon crawler and the content of this research could be summed up as thus: the party leader’s main objective is to keep everyone from killing each other before a monster can. The old king’s dungeon contained labyrinths that slithered like restless serpents, spike traps, false walls, beasts and enchanted baubles, but no trick more treacherous than pitting adventurers against one another. Why bother with conjuring monsters if you could simply torment your intruders until someone snapped? Sometimes a squabble over good loot was all it took for a party to dissolve.
Falin did most of the work in smoothing over the occasional interpersonal conflict, her calm smile and soft voice able to soothe even banshees, but there was only so much goodwill Laios’ kind little sister could afford him. Not everyone cared to learn the ins and outs of minotaur husbandry, or the complicated respiratory system of a seven-headed hydra, halfway down the magic murder hole. Laios didn’t really know what else there would be to talk about in a dungeon, though, so he often ran his mouth to fill the silence.
“Laios, if I hear one more fact about manticore scat I’ll make sure you’ll be living the dream.”
Chilchuck glowered up at Laios, hands on his hips, brows furrowed into a cute little crease.
��C’mon, it was relevant,” Laios said, cleaning his hands off with an already filthy handkerchief. “It’s fresh, so the monster’s nearby.”
“Fantastic news! I didn’t need a report on the texture. Let’s go.”
Chilchuck, the new hire, was an ornery sort. Good at his job—one would hope, with the astonishing upfront fee—but not with people. Laios could relate. A glance at the scrunched-up faces of Namari, Marcille and Shuro confirmed that Chilchuck wasn’t just bitching for the sake of it this time. He searched Falin’s strained grin for some backup, but she was at a loss.
Luckily, there were workarounds for the warrior in want of charisma.
“Cheer up, little guy.” A vein bulged out on Chilchuck’s forehead; Falin grimaced and mouthed an apology behind Laios’ back. “I’ll buy everyone a round at the tavern once the job’s done.”
Chilchuck debated holding the grudge, then sighed with a slumping of the shoulders.
“All the more reason to get a move on, then,” Namari said cheerily, glad to forget the scene they’d just witnessed. She clapped Chilchuck on the shoulder as she passed, staggering him out of his confrontational stance. He grunted and let it go, folding his hands behind his head and continuing down the tunnel.
“Nailed it,” Laios whispered to Falin, who met him with a congratulatory pat on the back. Wasting his cut of the profits on beer wasn’t wise with rent coming up, but the party’s cohesion was important, too. They’d managed to kill a green dragon last week, and it would be nice to keep that ball rolling.
“Good job, big brother! Um, next time, maybe don’t… call Chilchuck that.” “Why? I’m just trying to be friendly.” “Um… well, with half-foots, it’s sort of a-“
“C’mon, you two. Unless you want to get the bill after happy hour ends,” Chilchuck called, his small voice booming off the stone tiled walls. Laios jogged after the rest of the party, armor clanking as he went, with Falin not far behind.
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I responded to a comment on ao3 about the Izutsumi and Laios convo in the most recent chapter of NRBTS, and while I'm feeling self-indulgent, I thought I'd also share the response here.
Just some ramblings about my thought process for the scene, and in particular what Izutsumi might have "wanted" from Laios that he wasn't quite able to identify:
The Izutsumi convo... I didn't want to be too explicit about it, because I think sometimes its good to let things be not totally spelled out (especially in Laios POV), but I do think in retrospect maybe it's a little too vague. So I'm going to indulge in some extra editorializing, as a treat: The context (in my head) is her history with Shuro. “People in charge love to act like they don’t have any say in things" is the core of it, really... she likes and respects Laios, but she's learning to navigate a world with both more freedom and more limits than the one she's spent most of her life in, and I think dealing with a freshly minted noble is complicated for her! Shuro's inability to stand up for himself made him, you know... kinda complicit in the rotten situation she was in. As such, I think she'd have complicated feelings about the things that anyone in power says they "can't do," even if it's someone she's on better terms with. ANYWAY that's all unspoken in the scene itself, but that was my thought process. I think on some level what she wants is for Laios to stand up for himself and do what HE wants to do... even though she knows that wouldn't even necessarily be good for anyone, and even if the context isn't the same as with Shuro. It's messy, and she's still figuring this stuff out for herself. So I just wanted to honor that a bit. Honestly I wish it was easier to include more Izutsumi stuff in general in this fic... I love her sm but there are already lots of characters and I do want to keep the plot at least SOMEWHAT moving forward in each chapter/scene....
#nrbts#hopefully this is fun idk!! I like babbling about my thoughts for scenes but I also don't want to like#take away from the core experience of just reading the story and taking your own meaning from it#but I guess let me know if this is cpol stuff to hear about?
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I see people use 'the Nakamoto family owns slaves' as a reason to hate on Toshiro, while I'm not here to debate on whether that's a fair belief or not, but I do wanna point out that the situation on whether the Nakamoto clan should be called slave owners is a bit more complicated than that.
Like, not that much more complicated - Izutsumi is functionally a slave in every way; bought by the head of the family, every move and choice made for her for the good of the family over herself, and even collared to keep her from escaping - and that's what's most important above all else. The only thing that matters.
But it also seems to me that the clan, in all their confucian/bushido glory, don't see the situation as such.
They see it as them rescuing 'Asebi' from a horrible and taking her in and her not getting in line with the hierarchical program everyone else has been following for generations and see no reason to question as 'Asebi' just being kind of a brat about it.
(Because Confucianism and its spin-offs is a stupid bitch of a social philosophy and if I get banned from ever being able to enter China for saying that, so be it, 'cause I'm fucking right!)
Like, it's pretty important to note that the collar put on Izutsumi wasn't initially created for her, but for Toshiro as Maizuru's pilot parenting attempt. And, within all reason, she probably put it on Izutsumi for more or less the same reason; just with an extra dosage of tough love for the cat (ie, murder, wtf bro?).
With that in mind, is it really fair to judge these people and Toshiro in particular as 'slave owners' when they have such an ingrained cultural mindset that blinds them to the truth of their actions?
(And that's an actual question I want y'all to think about, not a rhetorical one. I'm not here to draw your moral conclusions for you. It's philosophical debate time, baby.)
But I will point out this panel for Toshiro:
Now, it's impossible to what Shuro really meant by this. Yes, he could just care so little about Izutsumi that he doesn't care what happens to her. But he could also be understanding of her and letting her get away with making this choice for herself.
Considering Shuro's own anxieties due to the lack of agency he gets in being heir apparent to the clan, I'd like to think it's the latter, myself. But, again, your own conclusions...
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While I do agree on Otta's crimes being questionable in their veracity (specially considering elven view of short-lived races), on the matter of Shuro owning two teenage girls. that's like. not actually true lol?
Now it's true Toshiro's clan does have slaves, but to say the characters we meet in his party are his slaves is a little questionable. Tade (and Benichidori) are his dad's slaves, not Shuro's, and they are following him because they work under Maizuru, his caretaker. On the topic of Izutsumi, the character whose arc is now apparently about "escaping his ownership", this claim is a little hard to back up since 1) Toshiro never once tries to enforce ownership over her and just lets her leave with no repercussion, and 2) he is, in fact, not her owner to begin with, Maizuru is! Shuru's dad bought Izutsumi as a gift for her, and she was the one who raised "Asebi" into a child soldier and placed the nanny curse on her! Izutsumi's motivation is about being free from the clan as a whole, not of Shuro in specific. She never even showed any particular hatred of him, because again, he is not her owner, he is her owner's boss (who is essentially his mother figure to complicate things).
As far as we're shown, Toshiro doesn't have any slaves of his own, and from what we are shown in the extra comics, he isn't even comfortable with the concept of slaves!
Now, did he ever make any real effort to free the clan slaves from their condition? No. Does he benefit from slavery, regardless of his personal feelings on the matter? Absolutely.
I'm not here to say he is some kind of saint or revolutionary, Shuro is very literally a feudal lord and has no intention of changing that, but at the same time, it is also true that this fandom interprets him as uniquely villainous when other characters in the work are just as if not more flawed than he is portrayed to be.
Kabru is racist against demi-humans. He views kobolds as lesser and when he discovered Laios' party made peace with the orcs instead of essentially genociding them, he treated it was a falling on Laios' part, and despite how important the dynamic and conflict between races is to dungeon meshi, this aspect of his character rarely gets brought up in discussion.
Laios and Falin themselves are shown to be bigoted against nomads and mountain people, to the point they believe they are better off dead. This particular facet is even less discussed in the fandom.
There are even more examples that could be brought up, Mikbell publicly owns Kuro and no one is shown to have any real problem with it, Marcille has a borderline racist view of orc culture and their history, hell, even Senshi has questionable, xenophobic, views on elfs.
Point is, dungeon meshi's world is very intentionally a flawed one, and no character is free from its prejudices, and this is something that should absolutely be analyzed, however, it is strange how Shuro, one of the few non-white plot relevant characters, gets the lion's share of the discussion with often the sole intent of painting him as unlikeable as possible, while the very real elf imperialists tend to float under the radar despite how their actions influence a greater number of events in the story.
Again, not to play defense too much, but Shuro's main crime here is not being an anti-slavery revolutionary in feudal fantasy Japan in a setting where no one is to begin with.
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Ugh your mind is beautiful OP I must join the riff 👀
Spoilers below the cut
So there’s a couple things I wanna pull out and pick apart:
1) the Demon, Kabru, Shuro, and Namari all come to the same conclusion about Laios, though Kabru’s our most obvious human analog; he also guides the Canaries’ impressions and is the captain of team “We Gotta Kill This Man”
The assumption they’re all making is actually a little more complicated though; all of them actually have all of the evidence to see that Laios cares about humans right in front of their faces
The Winged Lion hears him say it to its face in the dream
Kabru has been saved and protected by Laios twice this week in situations where he was completely helpless, and would never have known if Laios had just passed them by except that he might not have woken up at all
(Unconscious/paralysed on the Spirit Possession Level, dead on the water level with a Water Walk that will time out)
Shuro and Namari have travelled with him the longest and know full well that whenever it comes to it, Laios kills the monsters to protect his human companions
But they all assume that because Laios understands the monsters so much better than humans, that must be all he cares about
And to their credit, Shuro, Namari, and Kabru all do hesitate over that conclusion, and do have the sense that Laios wouldn’t want to hurt anyone; they just assume he won’t care not to, because he’s socially awkward
Because he does actually hurt humans pretty often by his “carelessness” and utter inability to understand social rules (hurt feelings, defo same scale as cheerfully killing monsters)
But he understands the monsters so well, that they assume that if he cared, he’d understand humans the same way
(Kabru especially because his Special Interest is people in the literal exact same way Laios’ is monsters)
So the Winged Lion is doomed to failure by its own inherent ableism, while Shuro, Namari, and Kabru all come to the same conclusion in the end; that yeah, Laios is inept and he sure as hell doesn’t understand human society, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t care, or that he’d let anything bad happen to people
2) the succubus fucking casting shade at Laios the entire time. Just
“Of course I’m not a succubus, if I was a succubus you’d just look at me and be immobilised, which is how it’s supposed to work, what succubus would put up with having to do this much bullshit”
Laios’ own understanding of the monsters is what persuades him to let his guard down; he perceives them as operating under immutable rules, so when the succubus behaves in a slightly different way than he expects he’s completely caught off guard
Because yeah, the succubus’ trick works on most people! Given the sass, we can guess that while this is a problem they can handle, it’s not one they deal with often. They’re even adaptable to the two hearts of beastkin, although it doesn’t actually work
Laios makes a valid assumption based on the information he has - and as we see all series long, that information is usually complete enough that he’s very rarely wrong
As we see when he’s freaking out over the winged lion in particular, Laios prefers monsters and understands them better because he can get a grasp of their instincts, drives, and needs - which to his mind, makes them predictable
He has his own baby breakdown over this which is much less dramatic than Marcille and Kabru’s later on, but when you actually look at it…
These are mostly the same problems Laios has with people. That last panel especially; he can’t tell what drives their actions, can’t predict what they’re going to do next, and doesn’t understand what to do about them
When the succubus behaves in a way he can’t predict, he’s instantly entrapped; it doesn’t occur to him that he might just be the exception to the rule (which, to be fair, it’s kinda hard to definitively know you just plain don’t have a “type”, especially in your early 20s; I didn’t work it out til the mid-lates)
When the demon doesn’t have the kinds of basic drives he’s used to, he’s completely stalled out on what to do about it… until it gives its own little spiel about what it wants and plants the seeds of its own defeat
I've been thinking about Laios' succubus lately. Mulling it over a bit.
Because I've seen these pages brought up a fair bit, but almost entirely in the context of shipping (on all sides, really). And I really want to understand what they are doing for the story beyond that.
When I went back to reread the scene and section, a few things caught my interest: the way Laios responds to both forms of his succubus, the themes of the volume the chapter is found in, and the other events of the chapter itself.
So let's dive into those three things, and what I think they say about the succubus scene's purpose.
Laios is never fully frozen by the succubus
So. If you compare Marcille and Chilchuck's reactions...
to Laios':
-
There is a difference. Sure, the basics may look the same once it turns into Scylla Marcille, but even then, it functions differently.
Chilchuck and Marcille are completely frozen once they catch sight of their succubus. Izutsumi, as well, isn't able to look away, and completely freezes up once her 'mom' starts talking to her. As Chilchuck describes, "just looking at them makes you unable to move."
And yet, Scylla Marcille has to actively convince Laios to comply. He even looks away from her at one point!
Laios accepts this succubus, but he is never actually helpless to it in the same way. Taken in? Convinced? Sure, at least enough to let things happen that he probably should question more than he does. But magically compelled? Not really. Not the same way as everyone else is. So that's interesting. But let's move on for now.
2. Volume 9 is all about drive and desire
I don't often look at chapters within the context of the volume they are included in, but I think there's some really fun things to be found with that perspective in mind.
For one, volume 9 starts with an exploration of what desire brought Laios to the dungeon:
And ends with a question of what desire brought Laios to the dungeon:
It's also very concerned in general with questions of why people do what they do. Why they are in the dungeon, why they are with the people they are with, why they stay, what they fight for.
In addition to Laios, we see it with Marcille...
Izutsumi
Kabru
and Mithrun
Hell, we even get it for the demon!
It's certainly not the only volume concerned with desires and motives, but it is particularly focused on these ideas.
The succubus scene fits quite well into the ongoing question about desires, especially Laios' desires. It is even placed at an interesting spot within the volume. The volume is six chapters long, and the scene takes place at the start of the 4th chapter. It's almost smack-dab in the middle.
With all this in mind, it is interesting that, with both versions of the succubus Marcille, it's not totally clear which parts of her Laios is rejecting.
The first version of Marcille looks human, but Laios attacks when he identifies her as a monster. The second Marcille looks like a monster, but he seems to believe that she is the real (human)(ish) person that he knows. So is he rejecting the monster at first, and then accepting the person? Or is he rejecting humanity and only interested in the monstrous?
Something to consider as we look at the next point...
3. the rest of the chapter is a seduction, too
This is one of those things that might not be apparent on a first reading, but is crystal clear on a revisit. We see the succubus try and charm Laios over 7 pages, and then see the Winged Lion do the same thing for the next 19.
Much like the succubus, it offers the mingling of monsters and humans. Much like the succubus, it offers belonging.
(and this is the point where I absolutely must also link this post by fumifooms on the succubus, which has some great ideas on how the scene is informed by Laios' trauma and desire for acceptance!!!)
But, back to the point. The Winged Lion wants to feed on Laios just as much as the succubus did, and it uses similar strategies to try and make that happen. Though this chapter isn't really the turning point for the next Lord of the Dungeon (it is Marcille who will, eventually, become the Lion's next victim), it certainly behaves like it is.
Laios is convinced. The succubus gets its meal. By the end of the volume, the reader begins to understand how concerning his desires are. Together, it is all very good at building up that sense of dread and pending disaster, as we see exactly how and why Laios might just fall into the Lion's open arms and bring about the end of the world.
-
So that's the three things I noticed. But there's still something I want to touch on by looking at the way these observations overlap, and what they reveal, together.
As I said, by the end of the volume, you can feel the tension growing. Just as Kabru and Mithrun do, you look back for an answer to the questions that have been built, chapter by chapter: why is Laios here? Where will his loyalties fall? This chapter, and scene, seem to prove the inevitable truth: he will choose the monster, of course. He will choose the seductive, easy power of the Winged Lion.
But the details of what actually happens tell different story: one in which the Lion is wrong.
First, as a reminder - even in Scylla Marcille mode, the succubus never fully entrances Laios. It convinces him, but it doesn't have him completely under its thrall.
Similarly, in the dream, the Lion does convince Laios to embrace the world he is offering. But even within that dream, Laios continues to ask questions that will be vital to him later. It is because of those questions that Laios comes to a new understanding about Thistle.
And it's this realization that he cites later as part of his reason for refusing the Lion's offer.
He is thinking through things the entire time, just like he continues to question the succubus even after it turns into Scylla Marcille.
Laios also expresses an interesting reason for why he wants to see the future of this world. He's not just invested because it would mean people liking what he likes, or him getting to spend time with monsters. The thought that comes immediately before his acceptance is about what he wants for monsters and people.
I don't think it's a coincidence that this statement - "we're living beings that share the same world, but all we can do is keep killing each other" - can apply to the various humans races just as much as it does to humans and monsters. The thing he is thinking about here isn't just a matter of his personal daydreams. It's an idea that underpins every conflict in the story.
Laios caring about how people as well as monsters in this manner is something that the Lion gets wrong every time. Even at the end, he still frames Laios' desires entirely around hating people and loving monsters.
The Lion has heard him express an opinion about the future of the world! It happened right there in the dream, right in front of him! He just didn't take it seriously, and didn't view it through any lens other than "Laios likes monsters more".
He's convinced that he understands how to get to Laios. Maybe the Lion can't truly see everything, or maybe his vision into everyone's deepest desires has made it hard for him to realize how much choice still matters. That people can, and do, choose which desires to act on, and how to act on them.
Whatever the case, he's wrong about Laios, and the story shows us this over and over again.
After all, look at how the succubus interaction plays out:
A monster uses Marcille to appeal to Laios...
He realizes that something about the situation is wrong, and rejects her.
It changes strategies, and makes new offer: to turn him into a monster.
It also assures him that his friends are, or will be, taken care of.
He accepts. Or rather, allows the monster to have its way with him.
But Laios is not as helpless as he initially appears, and what the Lion thinks is a successful seduction also contains the seed of an idea that will allow Laios to later resist him.
We even get to see Izutsumi playing a similar role in both instances, as the one person fully able to take action in the face to the illusion.
The story lays out what is going happen, and then explicitly tells us that the demon and the succubus are thematically related.
The chapter performs a great sleight of hand here - everything about it seems to indicate that Laios is doomed give in to the option to have his deepest desires realized. But if you look closer, it also contains the evidence that he won't. There's a lot more going on for him.
Yes, he still falls for obvious tricks. He is still extremely into monsters, and he still doesn't feel like he fits in with other people. He may, deep down, crave to surrender to the monstrous - to let it absorb him. But he questions more than he seems to. He considers more than people realize. He cares so much more than anyone gives him credit for.
And I think this is part of why we see the succubus called back to so many times, especially with the wolf head addition to his Monster Form, which he specifically added due to his encounter with the Scylla Marcille.
This all stays with Laios. It doesn't just foreshadow the path of the story, it is fundamental to how and why he walks that path. It's not about him choosing monsters, and it's not about him choosing people. It's about how he considers both, and cares about both.
And it's about the forces that think they already know his answer. Mithrun and Kabru. The Winged Lion. The succubus.
It's about how they are wrong.
#dungeon meshi#delicious in dungeon#dungeon meshi spoilers#laios touden#dunmeshi analysis#winged lion#delicious in dungeon spoilers
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