#she’s an interesting character but Adrien deserves better

[jmgangel]

On the one hand Adrien deserves a parental figure in his life. On the other I will be so mad if season 6 glazes Natalie and ignores the fact that she was complicit in Gabriel’s treatment of Adrien for who knows how long.

[sairenharia]

Why Chloe Deserved A Miraculous

Its a thought that's been stewing in my head and the more I thought about it, the more I realized it was true. Chloe was entitled to a Miraculous.

From a Doylist Perspective.

When there is conversations of if Chloe was entitled to a Miraculous is always presented from a Watsonian perspective. For those who don't know, Watsonian means the perspective of someone inside the story. A character. Doylist is the perspective of those in the real world. The author and audience.

The problem I see from fandom discourse is how often people don't actually consider the tools in a story. Often they take a Watsonian perspective, talk about what is right and sensible and should be how things work if this was a real situation. But the thing about stories is they have messages. They have tools and metaphors and themes to help display these messages. Sure, shows are about entertainment, but a story always has some kind of point. It may not be a moral lesson, it may not be some grand philosophy, but any story worth telling says SOMETHING. It takes a stance. The Fast and the Furious is all about doing cool stunts with cars, but it also has a message of doing things for family because if you just want to see cool car stunts, just go watch cool car stunts, but no, people want at least a little humanity in the car stunts, so there is a message of family. Sharing is caring, do your best, the heat death of the universe comes for us all, the messages can be vast, but there's some point of emotional reality to invest us in this specific media.

If we talk about Chloe and the Miraculous from a Watsonian perspective, no, she is not entitled to a Miraculous. No one is entitled to an object of power. Not even Marinette nor Adrien are entitled to their Miraculous.

But superpowers aren't real. Superpowers have always been a tool to emphasize a point. The stories of superman only focused on his powers are boring, but when you tell stories of how he tries to fit into a world that is not made for him, stories of how much he loves this world despite how easy it could be to be cruel, it gets interesting. The reason superhero comics started is there was a want to show that there can be incredibly powerful people who choose to be good. To choose to make the world a better place.

Superpowers made just to be cool and show off are boring. There is only so much you can watch a fight with a cool power before it gets dull and repetitive. But you relate the powers, the struggles of using the powers, to the person wielding them, the story has a lot more staying power. The powers say something about the person, and is part of their development.

And honestly, Miraculous is a good case for why this is important.

Because good god, most of the superhero team is boring.

And I don't just mean because they're good people, so there's no spice, though that's also true, but because the powers aren't really used to emphasize anything about the character. Max has portals. Why? His mom wants to be an astronaut, but we never really hear about Max wanting to travel. Doorman is a better example of a portal hero because he loves going to other places and learning about them.

Now portals are good for a tactician....except Max is never the tactician despite the fact we know he's brilliant and is good at video games. He just does as he's told by Ladybug for where he should put his portals. Its so close, but its not utilized.

And that is the case for most of the superheroes. Like the bones are there, but nothing is properly utilized. Sabrina is definitely a dog, good at getting things, and is in fact well practiced in recognizing what things may or may not be important. But we've never actually gotten to focus on her BEING a superhero, she only had a small cameo with the power, basically. Same with Ivan, really. They're pretty perfect for their powers and it suits their personalities, but none of it is EXPLORED. And that's the case with most of the heroes.

Juleka and Rose were pretty good at using the Miraculous to develop more of someone's character and emphasize a strength about another in turn. These are good hero episodes because we learned more about them and their journey.

Kagami's first episode with the dragon showed off more of her, such as she could be reckless, which is new information, but we learn a lot about her without it, and nothing new beyond that.

Luka could have actually been incredibly good because the snake both emphasizes a big part of him, and something he needs to work on. Luka is someone who steps back and watches. He observes. However, he has a problem where he often is too willing to step back. But with the snake needs someone who can observe AND act. So its a Miraculous that uses an important part of his personality, but could have also helped him grow.

And the rest are just...nothing.

There is a little for Nino and Alya. Nino is definitely more bold about defending his friends than he was at first, and Alya learns to be better about secrets, but these are the primary secondary heroes. We should have seen a ton of impact and development due to them having the Miraculous.

Here is the stance Miraculous should be taking in their story.

The desperation of those trapped and the power of being given good options.

Most of the Akumas are people who are trapped. They feel powerless. They are desperate to escape their problem and feel like they have no proper recourse with things are they are. How accurate this is varies, but this is how they feel in the moment, and that is what Gabriel preys on. These people agree to the deal because they don't feel like they will be helped any other way.

Ladybug and Chat Noir are meant to bring hope to those who felt hopeless and chose a terrible way to try and escape. They are support. They are a hand people desperately need.

So by that same token, the Miraculous should be a good way for people who feel trapped to be given an option, OR give those people the ability to extend their own hands to help others.

While it doesn't have to every time, it should often be the case those who are given a Miraculous; A, dealing with a huge problem and the Miraculous helps them solve that problem, regardless to the Akuma being related. Like if Juleka was working on trying to speak up even if the Akuma wasn't her parents and the Tiger still helped her do that. B, they are related to the Akuma and why they feel trapped, so they are working through their own issues with the important person. Like Rose when Juleka felt guilty. Or C, the person wants to find a way to help in general and kind of go how it went with Nino becoming Carapace. Where they were trying to be that hand a person needed, and earn the Miraculous, and that helps them on their journey to provide more support and help.

But its often it is someone they know, but them being the hero doesn't REALLY matter. Penalteam, the people were just there, these specific people didn't matter. Why did Zoe need to be Vesperia? Anyone could have taunted Chloe and she got turned into a banana real fast, her being the Bee didn't really bring a lot, to the bee, to her, or even to Chloe, and then she proceeded to just not bring much as the Bee, to the story, or herself.

Now part of this problem is that Marinette is not allowed to not learn a lesson, and has to be the one to save the day. These heroes do have skills. They have things they could be good at. But often....the plan is just what Marinette says. These heroes are not allowed to have agency.

They can't make decisions on their own.

Often times, they're just bodies being told to do the power without the ability to make the decision how and when. Sometimes they let the heroes do things and make decisions, but nine times out of ten, its Marinette who says who does what and when and her mental health is degrading because of it.

The Akumas are stories that always at least tell us something about the person because we see what problems hit them hard. There is something to learn, a bit of conflict to develop from.

The Miraculous should be following that trend, but in a positive way, but...doesn't.

All that being said.

Chloe was entitled to the Miraculous.

Because here is the stance Miraculous takes.

Someone is trapped in a situation and chooses to lash out violently and while that violence can not be permitted to continue, the heroes offer their support so the victim can feel like they have another option.

This is the story of Miraculous crystalized. People who feel alone and helpless are easily convinced to hurt others until someone is willing to help them despite this harm.

Chloe is the story of Miraculous.

Akumas are a metaphor.

And Chloe is the reality.

A child who is alone. Who feels trapped in her situation. Who doesn't know what else to do. So she does the only thing she knows how. She lashes out. She hurts people. She keeps them distant because then it doesn't hurt as much when they leave, or when they treat her like dirt.

Chloe is an Akuma personified, but her problems are brief moments. They're not a bad day that someone took advantage of. They are ever present and continuous and more over, reinforced to continue.

Chloe knows being a brat gets her what she wants from her father and was never taught to not be like that. Because he didn't discipline her, because her mother acted like that, because all adults around her was staff. Making demands is what she was TAUGHT and learned, through observation and guidance.

A behavior she continued to do with kids, and she found out teachers responded to the same threats and was never properly stopped. Other kids, reasonably, didn't want to deal with her, or submitted to her like Sabrina.

Chloe was not never taught how to be good. She was, in fact, very much taught to NOT be good. Her parents both set a terrible example. Her father is a corrupt politician. He may spoil her, but he we know he bribes and blackmails people, plus, you know, abandoned his daughter and technically kidnapped Zoe. This is not a paragon of a man. Then there was her mother. But she had a choice, listen to the man who had to weasel and cheat and play back handed games to get what he wanted, or the woman who got anything and everything she wanted...of course she would try to be the woman who seemed to get everything her way.

Because if her mother got everything she wanted, if Chloe was like her, maybe she could get everything SHE wanted.

Except it wasn't working.

But Chloe wasn't taught it was because she was cruel. She just started to believe she wasn't GOOD ENOUGH.

Maybe if she was as great as her mother, it would work.

By the time she would be old enough to recognize that wasn't how the world worked...well, by then, most of her peers hated her.

And here is something I think goes under the radar about Zoe.

Zoe knows how to act like Chloe. Audrey didn't blink at it. Zoe defaulted to the same behavior as Chloe. Zoe said she put on an act and she was tired of it.

Zoe WAS CHLOE.

And we know what happened with Zoe. Zoe stopped acting like Chloe. And then she got bullied. People were mean and cruel and put cockroaches in her locker and she only had one friend.

I'm sure that's why Zoe moved to Paris. Zoe went to her mom because she wanted a clean slate. She wanted the bullying to stop.

Even then, she struggled to stop. She defaulted to her habit, and we see that she CONTINUED the act around the hotel for some weeks after, because it was a hard habit to break.

But then...

Zoe got support. A hand was held out to her. Marinette gave her a chance, and so did everyone else, and Zoe took it because she wanted to be herself and she wanted to stop being cruel. Of course she's nice. She was given the space to be so.

Chloe is never given that support.

Chloe doesn't know how to be kind. She doesn't know how to be nice.

But the greatest tragedy is Chloe does know how to be GOOD.

Out of all the heroes, besides Chat, to a lesser degree Alya, and Alix and Luka by nature of their Miraculous, Chloe shows the most agency as a superhero. All the other heroes have their hands held by Ladybug. She tells them what to do, to an overly specific degree, and they are just bodies to use a tool. Chloe? Chloe acts on her own. To good and bad effect. Discounting the whole Queen Wasp break down, just when Chloe is actually acting as a superhero, she doesn't wait for Ladybug to tell her everything all the time. She calls out to her father, which was a mistake, but then there is every other time she's Queen Bee...

And she's fantastic at it.

Miraculer, she almost had Mayura's Miraculous.

Star Train, she gets people away from the Akuma.

In Bakerix, she's the last the to leave the train car.

In Ladybug, she's defending Sabrina.

In Style Queen, played Style Queen in an effort to find a way to save Adrien.

In Heroes Day, she is a great teammate. Keep in mind, everyone on the team knows who Chloe is. Ladybug was desperate and doesn't fully trust Chloe as a general rule. Rena Rouge and Carapace definitely don't trust her at all. Chat Noir is the only one who believes in Chloe as a person.

And yet, throughout the entire fight, Chloe is keeping up and picking up the slack with everyone else. She fights, she keeps civilians from being hurt, her synergy is on fire despite the lack of trust. When Rena Rouge and Carapace go down, she is quick to try and protect them and even after two EXTREMELY dangerous Akuma show up by way of her parents, who are both gunning for her real hard, she holds her own for a while and even then, she had to be mind controlled to stop and to feel negative emotions. It took FOUR AKUMAS gunning for her specifically to corrupt her, akums who are made to mess her up mentally to boot. When they confront Gabriel at the end, she prepares venom without being asked, to have a back up for taking him down. She makes decisions and when she was trusted to act as a hero, they are largely good ones.

And she never once complained about the mental hardship of what she went through. Because that's the thing, all her times as Queen Bee are super intense. They are her loved ones she's fighting, they are incredibly powerful Akumas. She fought a frickin' army.

And everyone...

Just insults her.

She risked her life for people and no one cared.

She fought her family and no one cared.

Chloe doesn't know how to be nice. Nor kind. But she was so good. And while the next day, people appreciated her, it was only a day.

And the tragedy is Chloe didn't immediately go back to being a bully. After Despair Bear, Chloe's bullying habits took an extreme nose dive. We only see her being unreasonably cruel a few times. After Maledikator, the only time is when she bullies Aurore and when she teamed up with Marinette, but also Marinette was with her and they were both doing it for fear of losing Adrien reasons. Not reasonable, but also not just to be cruel and honestly, her plan was fairly benign. She wanted Kagami to leave, not even humiliate her. And even Aurore is because Chloe was reaching the point she did in Miraculer where she was doubting Ladybug's trust in her and as she is want to do, she lashed out.

Most of the time when we see Chloe, what we see is her bragging about being Queen Bee. Which, sure, isn't a great thing...

But better a braggart than a bully. And when things go wrong, she tries to use her status to help reassure and guide people, which is actually a pretty good idea. Akumas are attracted to negative emotions. If she can reassure them, then less likely of them getting akumatized. It may be bragging, but it could help.

Chloe may not have been picture perfect nice, but we literally have an entire classroom full of perfectly nice people. She may not be humble, but bragging is not a damnable offense. But Chloe was legitimately trying to be a better person. She put herself in between others and danger. She had faith and belief that there were solutions. Even without the Miraculous, she tried to help people.

She may have wanted appreciate and gratitude for it, but what's even sadder is she didn't require it.

Chloe believed in Ladybug for a long time. She believed Ladybug would trust her again. She believed she could be given a Miraculous again, and all on her own, ALL ON HER OWN, she was trying to be a better person.

Its actually amazing how good Chloe was being despite the fact no one was helping her.

Because that is the thing.

Zoe got support and help.

Chloe didn't.

Every. Single. Time. Chloe tried to do something different, something not cruel, she is rejected. She tries to join the art club and she's mocked out of it. She tries to be class representative, a job no one else wanted for years, and she loses it as soon as someone did challenge her. She auditions, legitimately, for a music video, with eight years of practice, and she loses it because she isn't nice enough.

She stops bullying, tries to be a reassuring presence, and she is treated with suspicion and derision.

And still.

And STILL.

That isn't what breaks her.

What breaks her is the realization the only time where her efforts were appreciated was taken away. And even then, she holds onto the pieces. Holds onto hope that maybe she would be given a new chance.

Her parents are in danger. The reason she was given she couldn't be a hero is because she and her loved ones would be in danger.

Except her loved ones were in danger.

She was in danger.

Not having a Miraculous didn't change anything. It didn't keep them safe, it didn't keep her safe.

And its only then, after months of no one believing in her for more than two days, of no one holding out their hand, helping her, supporting her, believing her, with the one person she thought DID believe in her proved that she didn't believe in her, and couldn't even give her the safety that not having a Miraculous was supposed to bring.

For months, Chloe only thought Ladybug believed she could be good.

Adrien wanted her to be less cruel, but Chloe knew her being good wasn't necessary for him.

Nor was it for Sabrina.

But Ladybug?

Ladybug needed her to be good to believe in her, and she thought Ladybug did.

Chloe was able to largely bite back her desires to lash out at people based purely on the fact one person, ONE SINGULAR PERSON, needed her to be good, and believed in her ability to be so. It got her derision. It got her suspicion. It got people comparing her to villains. It got her dismissal. But she still tried. She still believed.

A person who didn't really believe in Chloe very much.

And there is also the Watsonian argument that Marinette doesn't owe it to Chloe to help her improve AND THIS IS INCREDIBLY VALID and honestly, in a perfect world, it would be great if it was Adrien who helped Chloe improve.

Or you know, Zoe. Someone who has a clean slate with Chloe and understands where she's coming from and could help her.

But no, this is the Marinette Has To Solve Everything Show.

So from a Doylist view, it IS Marinette who has to help Chloe, but also the Watsonian problem could be helped if it was CLEARLY ESTABLISHED that Marinette knows she doesn't HAVE to help Chloe, and people aren't pressuring her to do so (coughBustiercough) because that is a bad message...

But Marinette can CHOOSE to help her and make that clear.

Because Marinette has seen a lot of Chloe and could understand that she really does just need a little more help. That Chloe needed just a bit more support and help. And, you know, didn't actively encourage Chloe to please her abuser.

But we're going from the Doylist view and we can solve the Marinette being the one to help Chloe problem by not having it be Marinette, but LADYBUG.

And this?

This is why I say Chloe was entitled to a Miraculous.

Because Chloe is the reality of the stance of the show, and so helping her problem with the metaphors would go a long way.

You see, Chloe doesn't know Ladybug is Marinette. And Marinette knows being Ladybug means being the bigger person. Ladybug believes in people. Ladybug helps everyone she can. Its not about the victim helping their bully, its the superhero choosing to help someone who NEEDS HELP.

Chloe is stuck in her situation. Her mother will always be emotionally abusive. Her father will always be an enabler. She can try to change, but no one will BELIEVE in her change. She will be derided and mocked and treated poorly because no one is willing to give her the chance to grow, and they certainly won't help.

Frankly, its a miracle that Chloe's Akumas are so merciful.

Because Banana Queen is the most destructive of Chloe's Akuma forms. Most of Chloe's Akuma forms don't care about HURTING people. They care about WINNING. She either wants to win or for people to just listen to her.

But give Chloe the Bee Miraculous, and suddenly things change.

Chloe feels like she has OPTIONS as Queen Bee. She doesn't feel she has to meet her mother's expectations as much if she's Queen Bee. She has people who trust and depend on her. At least right after she saves people, she gets a little praise, a little belief.

And people may say being a hero for glory and attention is a bad thing, but the thing is, Chloe's need for glory and attention is about being ACKNOWLEDGED. As feeling like people value and care about her. This is a BASIC HUMAN NEED and she doesn't know another way to get it. Its not like she's demanding physical things for her heroics.

She just wants to be appreciated.

By giving Chloe a Miraculous, she is given the tools to try and be good. She is given an escape from her situation. She is given SUPPORT in her efforts because the other heroes have to support her.

And over time...

That trust will grow.

Because what Chloe doesn't know, all her classmates are the other heroes.

And suddenly, all her classmates will see her as a different person. They will see what she's like when the chips are down. How much effort she's willing to put in. How seriously she takes the job.

Is she still a braggart? Sure. Is she still rude as hell? Absolutely.

But she will risk it all to help people, without asking for anything in return except a little faith.

Chloe is entitled to a Miraculous.

Because her story without a Miraculous is a story of a little girl who no one wanted to help, who were unwilling to offer her help because she lashed out while trying to survive a situation she couldn't escape, and because it wasn't super charged by a terrorist, she was deemed unworthy of it and instead deserving of isolation and constant emotional abuse.

But with a Miraculous?

Chloe is a girl who, when given a little faith, a little trust, a little help, returned it tenfold. Who puts her all in trying to be the best hero she could be. Is she imperfect? Sure. But she's giving it her all. (And frankly, she's spicy and it makes for entertaining character dynamics. You can have a character be a jerk and good, tsunderes are popular for a reason.) And as she gets more trust, as she gets more help, as she is offered that hand of help over and over again, she would continue to improve.

And as she's given power, she uses that same faith to figure out how to offer her hand to others. To help them. To spare them the same pain she suffered.

Because that is what given to the Akuma victims. They are given a little help, and a little power to break free of their magically abusive mindsets.

To have someone go from the continuing the cycle of abuse to someone who would save other people from that?

That is a real superhero story.

Chloe is undeserving from a Watsonian perspective.

But she's so very deserving from a Doylist perspective.

[grahminradarin]

Hi hey hello. I've been watching Miraculous since September, and I just finished.

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THIS FANDOM?

That finale was amazingly well-made. I definitely get why people were disappointed, but there's no way that's everything. The writers who made the rest of the season so good are not capable of writing something this confusing and unsatisfying, unless it's on purpose. This story isn't done.

There has been a lot of focus in the season on class dynamics, but in the last couple of episodes they really start bringing this theme of how people deal with power to the forefront

With Ladybug and Chat deciding not to do anything against Chloe because it's not their responsibility even though they have the power to do it, everything with Lila, the increasingly reckless and harmful ways Gabriel is manipulating people because he thinks he gets to decide what is good for others, Gimmi complaining that no one ever summons them to tell them anything good and only summon Gimmi to use Gimmi's power.

And the thing that brings it together: Marinette's speech right at the end, just before Gabriel makes the wish, when she says the power is only valid when it's used for the greater good of other people.

And then the statue of Gabriel. Right after all of this, a statue commemorating the man who refuses to use his power for the good of others. The dissonance is on purpose. This story is thematically incomplete, and I think the London special will finally wrap it all up.

What does the fandom come away from this talking about? How interesting this all is and wondering how it gets resolved? No. The fandom on the subreddit (and some of them on Tumblr) say "The villain won without consequences! This is bad writing!" and "Why is Marinette not telling Adrien he's a sentimonster?".

I just. How do you watch that and come away with your biggest concern being "Marinette didn't tell Adrien the truth"? How do you not see that it's so much bigger than that? That's not one dangling plot thread, we're looking at an unfinished garment and complaining that the edges are fraying.

And a good portion of the fandom cannot for the life of themselves see the loom and the people working it still going. I don't know how to stretch this metaphor any further, but I cannot believe that anyone would look at something so blatantly incomplete and still treat it like it's the entire picture. It's a microcosm of a bigger issue with the fandom, which is, as far as I can tell, that this fandom wants to watch a different show. Seasons 4 and 5 are so vastly different from seasons 1 and 2, and I think the people that came here to enjoy the first two or three seasons but hated the later ones are angry with the show for not following the traditional kinds of stories in the genre.

This show isn't trying to be an episodic or somewhat serialized story about love squares and middle school nonsense. It's a deep and varied exploration of what being a magical girl does to a 14 year old (in addition to many other things), and it's not pretty. The show is trying to say "this was terrible for everyone, and it shouldn't have happened, but it did, and here's how". And most people didn't want that, which is fair. But it doesn't mean the show is badly written, nor does it mean the writers hate certain characters. It pisses me off that a show this well made, with so much time and effort and care, is constantly dismissed as a badly-written, disorganized piece of crap that people only like ironically. Something this well made deserves a more neutral presentation to let people form their own opinions, and it deserve appreciation for the innumerable things it does well, especially in later seasons and the specials.

In summary, Miraculous isn't bad. A vocal part, maybe even the majority, of the fandom just wanted something else based on the first 3 seasons, and hasn't realized it because they're so devoted to hating on the show. And it deserves a much better reputation than it has.

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

Different nonnie from the Tikki-Xuppu person, but what you said about Tikki’s personality fitting Order better than Creation made me think about how Pollen would’ve be a better fit for Creation symbolism-wise over Tikki given how much bees better fit that image over ladybugs with their beeswax, honey and hive-making, not to mention the intimate relationship humans of various cultures have had with bees for literal millennia. Even the restoration of Miraculous Ladybug fits bees better due to the connotations of pollination and how essential bees are for the world’s ecosystem. In a universe where Pollen was the kwami of Creation with Tikki’s canon powers (though with bee-theming of course) to Plagg’s Destruction, how do you think things would’ve gone with Marinette and Adrien while having their canon personalities? How do you think they would have played off of each other with their canon personalities?

(Post that spawned this ask)

Before we begin, I want to note that my answer is probably going to be at least a little biased by @zoe-oneesama Scarlet Lady comic because Pollen has a big role in that and Zoe's read on Pollen pretty closely matches mine. Do with that what you will.

This is the first Kwami swap that I could see working. Plagg's personality is so iconic that it's hard to imagine anyone being an improvement, but Tikki is pretty generic. While she has a clear personality, she has no real interests or hobbies that make her stand out. She's mostly just here to be cute and act as the writer's mouthpiece. While I hate that for her and think she deserves better, it does mean that booting her and replacing her with a different Kwami doesn't feel like you're breaking a core element of the show so long as her replacement plays off the other characters well.

We don't see much of Pollen in canon, so it's hard to get a great read on her, but she her love of calling Chloe "my Queen" and the fact that Pollen is a bee give me vibes of a loyal, devoted Kwami who thinks that her Chosen is the best thing ever no matter what. Compare that to Plagg who delights in tormenting his Chosen and there's major potential for some excellent banter and fun contrasting moments, which is what Tikki's replacement would need to be able to do. Tikki and Plagg's contrasting dynamic is a lot of fun and you wouldn't want to lose it. Pollen and Plagg's dynamic would be different, but in a similar enough vein that I think it could work. Which is actually a point in Pollen's favor. If she was just another Tikki, then there would be no point in making the switch.

While Tikki is often dishing out lectures, her most valuable role is building Marinette up in moments when Marinette is feeling down. Pollen should be able to do that no problem. If anything, Pollen may be a little too zealous in supporting Marinette, but since Marinette isn't often shown to listen to Tikki's advice, that's not really an issue. It could even be a new source of comedy where Marinette comes up with insane plans and Pollen hypes her up while the audience watches in fascinated horror. It could be a lot of fun and also give Alya a better chance to fill the voice-of-reason role that she's occasionally allowed to have. That's one of the many awkward things about Alya knowing now. Her and Tikki often fill the same role on the civilian side since Tikki isn't presented as a wise, ancient mentor who knows things that these kids don't.

I especially love the idea of a Kwami swap where Adrien is praised to death and then refuses to give Pollen back because he needs this right now, okay? His lady can have the cheese loving gremlin for a few days while Pollen floats after him, calling him a Queen and praising his every move. Maybe Pollen even starts sneaking into his backpack and leaving him whatever her favorite treats are as a little sign that he's appreciated, leading Plagg to get all territorial, which further validates Adrien. (I just really like comedy that has a sweet undertone, okay?)

Since we don't have a full understanding of Pollen's personality, I won't speculate further than that as I'm trying to avoid getting too far into the realms of headcanon, but I do really like this idea and think it could be a lot of fun. I even like the idea of Pollen as Creation because bees do make more sense than ladybugs from a theme perspective. Plus Ladybee was such an iconic look, one of the few good unifies, and a version of that without the red would still be fabulous!

[immaturityofthomasastruc]

I once had a idea of a couple of villains which are everything ladybug and cat noir aren’t

The boy is the well mannered and destructive person who’s always honest, The girl is the chaotic and overwhelming person who always has a plan

Yet both hate Ladybug and cat noir for their own reasons

The boy doesn’t hate cat noir but hates liars and abusive people, and when he discovers monarch was Gabriel (threw my kid through Paris) agreste and how the heroes never defeated him, he goes off and accidentally ruins Adrien’s life (also Felix’s life for stealing the miraculous, lying to kagami about it and trying to ruin Adrien’s life, he would break the bird boy’s spine), and even his hero life by using cat noir has a example of a bad hero (abandoning Paris a couple of times, letting his emotions get in the way, never taking things seriously, always flirting and always getting brainwashed for he’s incompetence). None of it is personal for the boy but he admits he doesn’t care if Adrien gets hurt since the boy believes himself to be a bad person and being a villain is his punishment so he acts accordingly despite his intentions of revealing a lie and making a true change to destroy the status quo being quite heroic, Adrien gets a burning rage towards the boy

The girl hates ladybug for how she has everything (friends, family, fame and power) yet when she sees how she treats Adrien (lying to him under the excuse of not hurting him when it’s actually just hurting Adrien more by praising he’s abuser, being superficial since she’ll fall in love with anyone who acts like Adrien/cat walker, and the constant stalker behavior) she’ll make sure to hurt Marinette thinking she doesn’t deserve her perfect life when she was all alone before being turned into a villain and meeting the boy, she’ll at first seem like a pure evil character but she’s just someone trying to survive, she’s actually someone pretty sweet and friendly (at difference of the boy which is quite shy and closed despite it seeming otherwise, she helped him go through his traumas and he’s doing the same for her) and when she sees someone like Marinette having a perfect life and treating her partner like that would be enough to make her into a venom like for who’ll do anything to bring justice while knowing justice is the wrong word since she’s breaking several laws while making a teenager suffer

And the best part is how the two constantly emotionally support each other properly and are better working together than the bug and the cat, they talk about their problems, always talk and go out together, help each other train their powers and everything, a genuine healthy relationship built on trust, care and partnership

The point of the arc against them could be A-fixing Ladybug’s and Cat noir’s flaws and problems and make them a genuinely healthy couple, B-break them up because after everything, is there any chemistry at this point? They are the water and bread of relationships and the only good about their relationship has civilians is the “Will they Won’t they” the writers have exploited for 5 seasons and may keep going for another 5, and after everything they’ve done to each other in and out of the suit I can’t ship this two in the show anymore

But we all know Adrien will never know the truth, they’ll probably never question what happen to Gabriel, ladybug won’t ever be on the wrong and cat won’t ever suffer the consequences of his immaturity while being a hero for fun who doesn’t care about the consequences

That's a pretty interesting idea. We really need more villains with their own non-Butterfly Miraculous in this show.

[flightfoot]

An interesting dilemma: to what extent can "Marinette is 14" be an excuse?

I think that her being a teenager, especially one so young, explains a lot of her behavior and decisions. That girl should NOT find herself in that position, It's unfair that she was asked to make all those decisions, that this weight was placed on her shoulders. It's the adults who should decide ((It's just that the competence of adults depends on whether they are relevant at the time. Otherwise they just hold the idiot ball.)

I like Natalie and Adrien deserves someone on her side, but she should definitely be in jail, her crimes and bad decisions don't go away because someone needs her. And it's not like he's going to be left alone, he literally has an aunt and she might be semi-prepared to deal with another abuse survivor without telling him "your abuser wasn't that bad"

AAccepting Marinette's proposal (who has been under a lot of stress in the last few hours) is simply convenient for Nathalie ñwe find ourselves in the same place as last season:There were and are more people who can tell Adrien the truth, Marinette is not the only one to blame nor should she be singled out for that decision. It is unfair to want her to be the only one harmed by the lie.

The special added context but didn't change or excuse anything. It is still insinuated that it was a bad decision, Marinette is still a child and Nathalie still had to take that weight off her.

I'm not as bothered by the idea of leaving out that Nathalie was guilty so she'd still be around to take care of Adrien, she was an accomplice, not the main instigator, and she has been actively doing what she can to help Adrien this past season. I don't think Nathalie's an active danger to society anymore and I think she could do a lot more good doing "community service" by being the mother Adrien needs rather than being locked up in a prison cell. While Amelie and Felix can be there for Adrien, it's gonna be less of a disruption if the person who has BEEN taking care of Adrien for the last year continues to do so.

I do agree that this really shouldn't all be on Marinette's shoulders, decision-wise. Though I also see why it's treated that way by the narrative. This is a kids show, with kids as the main characters and being responsible for driving the show - most notably Marinette. Marinette's given a massive amount of power in the show and is the driving decision-maker even when she really shouldn't be, and the responsibility for those decisions is also placed on her shoulders, for better or worse.

[shysublimecoffee]

I prefer not to sound harsh, but Miraculous has become a fandom where I find more enjoyment in reading fanfics than watching the show. It feels like there's a lack of effort or an attempt to justify and rearrange elements, often ignoring past seasons and assuming the audience won't notice. The handling of Derision is a notable example, with more astute critics than me delving into their dissatisfaction and the evident retcons.

I didn't anticipate the show going to such lengths as portraying Gabriel as someone deserving of a statue, and it left a sour taste in my mouth to see the hero endorsing it. Adrien/ChatNoir's portrayal has become quite pitiful, with a peculiar shift where Ladybug takes on a significant role in the Agreste Saga despite her absence from that narrative. Ladybug, who isn't even part of the Agreste Saga, is the one delivering heartfelt moments. The decision to sideline Adrien and put him out of commission is disappointing. It's his story yet she the one who has to make it about her. She gets to shine along with a cool costume to boot.

There's a palpable bias from Astruc against Chloe, evident in the show's treatment of her character. Despite her being manipulated by Gabriel Agreste, the narrative blames her for becoming mayor, and the absurdity of the situation is magnified when everyone in the story goes along with it. The inclusion of a scene in Revolution where Chloe is crying is perplexing and frustrating, as it seems to perpetuate the negative and irredeemable image the show consistently paints of her. The added layer of her mother being horrid to her intensifies my annoyance, especially when sympathetic scenes are presented in a seemingly contradictory manner.

I mean you want her to be the worst but yet she has scenes like this? Why not go all the way wtf. Why give her depth only to take it away and then make her be so demonized in s5 and act like she was like this from the start. When she's been a joke

I hate to be critical, but seriously, it's hard to ignore how the Miraculous universe is just dripping with untapped potential. Five seasons in, and the movie outshines the show effortlessly. It makes you wonder about the writers' team and their approach—seems like they're just coasting on low effort for profit, and somehow, it's working, thanks to Miraculous inexplicable popularity.

The show's been beating the monster-of-the-week horse for five long seasons, lacking any creativity in crafting interesting villains. Gabriel, honestly, feels like a starter villain, and if they're going to make him the big bad, can we at least get some villains with a bit more pizzazz? You know craft creative interesting villains? KNDS, Original PPG, Totally Spies they got it so why not Miraculous. It's so damn tiring seeing the same old song and dance with Gabriel 24/7 monologuing to his wife and releasing the akuma I thought Mayura would be important but she's barely there.

It's not even an excuse kids do deserve better entertainment so why should Miraculous lower its standards. Marinette is very weird to me as the protagonist because her lovelife is more focused over everything I gauged her well enough to know about her that the rest of the secondary needs more of a spotlight to be cast on them. I like her but am I the only one who just skips when she starts the whining about Adrien and her plan to again get together it was cute at first now I fast forward to the more interesting part of the episode because it irks me i'm tired okay... what other facet of her character do the writers focus on besides her love life? I hope I don't appear to salt on her but Imma tag it just in case. I think she's in neutral treading to dislike because how can I come back from her gaslighting her boyfriends I'm sorry I can't.

You know what I'm afraid of that if Lila gonna be the next big bad they'll just recycle everything from Gabriel onto her. We'll have the same akumatizations same monster of the week formula only this time it's Lila.

I trust more in the fanfic community to come up with a better substantial plot than Miraculous could ever be. I know romance is a big part but the lore is so damn little it's season 5 are they ever going to expand more in the later seasons lol.

I'm tired from writing this long. Imma go to bed now.

[shadowuserannie]

KOTLC Miraculous AU

So it goes without saying;

Marinette: Sophie

Adrien: Fitz

I know, I know. (prepares to get attacked, holds up shield) BUT THINK ABOUT IT. FITZ BEING FORCED BY ALDEN TO BE PERFECT. FITZ GETTING TO UNLEASH HIS INNER ANGER AND INNER KEEFE AS CHAT NOIR (because YES, let Keefe infect all the people that love him)

This is FANFICTION I CAN MAKE A NONTOXIC FITZ AND DO WHAT I WANT

Besides, I want a character journey where Fitz learns his true personality; not the jaded but joking Detruire (it means destruction in French, I like the name) and not the picture-perfect Fitz Vacker. A guy toeing the line between both. Being pessimistic but not too jaded, learning to let go of the mask of optimism and finding people still like the person underneath. Being sassy but kind and still TRYING HIS BEST BUT NOT PERFECTLY. Let him find who he is!!

So the rest are a little more complicated, but;

Alya: Dex. Let Dex create the Ladyblog and get popular as a result. Let him associate the Ladyblog with being liked and chasing Sophie's secret identity as a result. Let Sophie smack some sense into him and CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT TO MAKE HIM A GREAT BESTIE (because it'd be boring if they were all perfect at the start of the story)

Nino/Chloe: Keefe. HEAR ME OUT. Keefe growing up with Fitz because Alden approves of his family, but then Keefe becomes more rebellious and they can't meet up as often anymore BUT KEEFE REBELS. AND GETS FITZ TO REBEL MORE. AND GETS FITZ ENROLLED AT FOXFIRE NEXT TO HIM. Keefe rebelling against Cassius and accidentally becoming a bully because of it. Keefe realizing there's a line between pissing off his parents and hurting others to do it. Because THAT COULD BE GOOD. Keefe canonically goes pretty far in his attempts to piss off his father.

Also a possible Chloe: Stina. Stina got her own half-assed bullshitted redemption (wow Astruc, thanks SM) and DESERVES BETTER.

Oh but fun fact about Sophie; she's actually quick to categorize people as 'good' or 'evil'. So having Stina be mean to her and getting categorized as 'evil' as a result, but that eventually changing over time, would be a good application of her KOTLC character development to this AU.

So ik that on a surface level, Keefe fits Adrien's role better than Fitz-daddy issues, blond hair, et cetera. BUT. I realized that while it would be fun, a story with Fitz would be harder to write and thus more interesting-plus I realized that somehow I have to integrate the other characters PLUS BIANA in, so a wild ride overall! It'd be the same refresh, repeat, if they were all exactly like their roles.

ALSO THEY ARE CANONICALLY DIFFERENT AGES. LEMME JUST-(screams internally)

(@tiana4evahh I am so sorry I got sidetracked reading the KOTLC graphic novel I might just publish the KOTLC human! superhero! AU first)

THIS IS MY FIRST DRAFT/RUNTHROUGH. STUFF MAY CHANGE IN FUTURE POSTS

(or I may also scrap this AU entirely?)

[eddo-tensei]

"YOU JUST WANT HER TO STAY THE SAME!" - A short essay on the misconception of why people wanted Chloe to be redeemed.

Interpretations are important when it comes to understanding media and despite what some people may say, there's never "one true interpretation" of a piece of media. At this point, it's been at least a couple months since the fifth season of Miraculous had ended and it's been at least a month less than that since the movie had premiered. In both cases, even though she just barely qualifies as being a main character in the franchise, Chloe had become a hot topic in both iterations. In the show, she started out as your stock mean girl archetype, started to gain some depth in Seasons 2 and 3, and then suddenly nose-dived into being the resident Hate Sink come Season 4 and onwards while any bit of depth she had was stripped away from her. In the movie, she started out as relatively the same as she did in the show, but what's interesting is how her progression in the movie was handled in that there barely was any progression for her in either path. There wasn't a path of redemption written for her, but she wasn't thrown into the Hate Sink like what the latter half of the show did with her. In fact, even though the movie gave her an extremely petty motivation to bully Marinette, she's somehow better than how the show depicted her because she actually has a motivation, albeit a petty one, and yet she's somehow shown to be less of a monstrous psychopath that the show tried desperately to make her out to be. Granted, I do feel like something is lost with Zag retconning out most of Chloe and Adrien's past friendship, but the rest of the writing for Movie Adrien more than made up for that because Adrien actually feels like his own character instead of someone morphed into an accessory for Marinette. Same goes for Movie Marinette for that matter because even though they don't have a backstory together, Chloe's bullying of Marinette actually holds weight and Marinette felt more like a genuine introvert than the neurotically creepy mess she was in the show and to whom the writers spent the last season desperately attempting to justify the questionable actions of. All that said, the movie did a lot of right in terms of characterization and while Chloe, Nino, and Alya had reduced roles, they were still written pretty nicely and I hope to see this version of these characters again should Zag pen another sequel.

Even so, it led me to think about something that's been bothering me concerning Chloe and the discourse surrounding her. Even now, especially after how the fifth season's finale played out, the debate for whether or not Chloe should've been redeemed is still ongoing and it's very clear that the show had only served to strengthen those who said she never deserved to be redeemed to begin with. While there's a lot to debate over this, I do feel like there's one particular idea among those who are against a redemption for Chloe that's just completely wrong and deserves to be called out. Namely, a lot of people who argue against Chloe being redeemed seem to have this assumption that those who do want that are defending all of Chloe's actions or worse, that those who are pro-redemption actually just want Chloe to remain the same character-wise while she gets to be a hero again. Honestly, it's baffling that people would believe that Chloe fans who wish for a redemption just want Chloe to remain the same bully she always was even though that is literally the opposite of what most Chloe fans want and completely goes against the point of her having a redemption arc to begin with.

Now the reason I said this is the opposite of what MOST Chloe fans want is because there are indeed some fans of Chloe who do think she did nothing wrong and that she should be given the hero spot because Marinette is just being stupid. These fans usually come from people who get most of their ideas for Miraculous from watching goons like CyrusLovesOwlCity and to put it simply, these people are wrong and should not be taken seriously. Frankly, they're no different from any Marinette stan or Adrien stan who argue until they're blue in the face about how their respective characters did nothing wrong while violently salting any other character, including each other, that did something even slightly negative to their favorites. Those people do not deserve to be allowed in any polite conversation involving Miraculous regardless of which character they do it for.

In any case, despite what people might think, a lot of Chloe fans do want to see her change and stop being a bully. They want to actually watch her learn that what she's doing is wrong and thus improve herself. Of course, the showrunners seem to vehemently disagree with the concept of her ever becoming better and actively shoot down any possible hint of that happening. People will argue that there were never any hints to begin with and that Chloe fans are just being delusional, but that's where interpretations come in. While one could easily just say that Chloe is just impossible to redeem and one can even dive deep to even find reasons as to why that is, people can also look deep enough to find reasons as to why Chloe CAN be redeemed. While there's no true evidence that Chloe had a hidden heart of gold, there is evidence to show that she's much more sensitive and insecure than she lets on, primarily seen in any episode where Audrey is a primary character. Moreover, while Chloe is more of an overt bully in the movies, the scene of the ball towards the end of the movie does indicate that while Chloe still has a front, she does respect Marinette to an extent to the point of allowing her to dance with Adrien. This latter scene does seem to lean more into what Chloe fans actually want in that even though she is a bully, she's also starting to grow and it does seem like there's hope that she could get out of that role instead of just getting worse and being treated as a worse person than someone who attempted genocide and someone who wanted to erase reality.

With all that said, I feel like one more thing that needs to be addressed is that some people seem to believe that Chloe fans only complain about the show's writing when Chloe looks bad. While it may seem like cope, when people are complaining about it for multiple characters that arguably span the entire show, I don't think they're just complaining because one character is written in a bad light. Kagami, Nino, and Alya are just some of the other characters that come to mind when talking about how bad the writing is and of course, when Marinette and Adrien get their awful moments, a lot of their fans seem quick to jump to bringing up "bad writing" as a complaint as well with them often rewriting these characters to fit how they themselves view them. Frankly, if those fans are allowed to just create their own versions of these characters, I don't see why Chloe fans shouldn't be granted that same luxury for Chloe herself.

Overall, while the future of the show is uncertain, it's clear that Chloe's fandom is never going to truly disappear no matter how much people try to make that happen. All that said, you shouldn't just assume that a Chloe fan just wants her to get away with everything and be treated as a hero without having to change. Ultimately, you shouldn't just accuse a fan of Chloe of defending all of her bad actions just because they want her to be better. Save that negative energy for the people who unironically say that she did nothing wrong and then actively salt other characters for her. This is a lot to write, but I really wanted to get my thoughts out there and hopefully clear some things up.

Also, people who say that Marinette is somehow the true bully do not belong in the Miraculous fandom. Simple as.

[theerurishipper]

What Marinette did at the end of season 5 is dangerous lesson to internalize to young children because if people are dissecting and going deeply in depth with s5 episodes like Derision and the final two parter episode and mind you these are adults or at least pass the age intended for this show demographic how are young kids living similar lives to adrian or chloe going to be affected? Kids brats or not react differently the whole good victim mentality narrative in this show is disgusting when it comes to the topic of akumas and how it relates to mental health. Like if there is a chloe or adrien child watching this show I feel horrible for them because what hope or closure do they really get from this show what lesson imparted in this show is actually being taught in goodwill like did the producers or whoever behind it not see how bad the messaging with their abuse apologist is how are parents not complaining or at the very least concerned?

I was whirl-winded by the finale in of itself and what I got was Marinette essentially following through with the villains plan and keeping it from her love interest while simultaneously gaslighting about his father decisions and making the parent abuser a hero and his victim Adrien in awe.

If adults are trying to rationalize or do whatever they can to scrap whatever integrity left in Marinette character decisions making theories to salvage the wreckage done in the finale two-parter how are children or middle-schoolers rationalizing this because I deeply sincerely hope they don't ever internalize anything from this show the message they impart especially in one of the episodes revolving from Chloe Father especially and the leak episodes they eventually had to scrap because of the backlash is so damn bad.

Like forget the potential what if or canons or annoyance the fandom didn't get their wants with this show because ultimately the show is for kids not them what lesson do we learn here?

I am actually worried. This is a magical girl cartoon aren't the lesson they're supposed to invoke about to teach love and their is hope to change like Digimon for instance they had a character named Ken and Daiki encouraging him and his belief in the mc made him changed so much into a better person. But no, instead Marinette being like Chloe can never change there is no hope from her mouth makes me want to wrangle the writers and people behind it I hope they aren't parents because wtf? Who behind the decisions there for children to consume this sort of trash messaging in forgiving abuse apologist like Gabe.

She's supposed to be a role model but no instead Astruc uses her as a tool to spout whatever grievances he has with the fandom onto the show and characters inside it especially Chloe. I really don't recommend a show like MLB to anyone honestly unless they are aware of this show dumb messaging and people buying into it.

Exactly. It's so obvious that Marinette just ended up becoming a mouthpiece for the writers to spout their own opinions towards the end, like having her go on numerous anti-Chloe tirades. And I'm not saying that Chloe doesn't deserve to be called out, but it's done so unnaturally, and it feels like the writers are just desperate to get us to hate her without acknowledging any of the character depth they gave her.

And I'm not a Chloe stan or anything, and I do think that it's okay to show that sometimes, people can't change and that victims of abuse can become abusers themselves. But we didn't get that. We got the show telling us, in no uncertain terms, that Chloe is bad because she's evil inside and not because of abuse that we see on screen, and that her father who enabled her and taught her how to be this way is a victim and is more redeemable than her. The fuck is this???

And it just gets worse, because Chloe is evil inside and irredeemable and deserves more abuse as her comeuppance, but the magical terrorist/child abuser gets off scott-free? Gabriel Agreste gets what he wanted and dies happy and content while leaving behind a favorable legacy? What the fuck?

So yeah. I feel bad for the abused children who are watching this show, who are being told that their abuse doesn't matter, that they are just being overly sensitive/are evil inside, and only deserve more abuse. What a wonderfully horrible message.

Thank you for your ask!

[foxwitchaine]

What are your favourite Miraculous fanfics - salt or not?

I've got quite a list, so everyone buckle up. We're about to board the salt train:

Ladybugout AU by Miraculous_Content

This was the one that introduced me to the world of Miraculous salt fics, and the fic that opened my eyes to the problems of the show. When Rafe and I first got into Miraculous, Season 2 hadn't aired and we were looking for new shows to watch. We didn't know it, but our interest would be dead by Season 4.

You Don’t Know What You’ve Got ‘Til It’s Gone by DaniMeows

One of the earliest salt fics I read when I first learned about them, and it still hits all those right notes years later. It's a one-shot, yes, but you get to see the class get collectively punched in the gut when they realize how badly they screwed up.

The Karma of Lies by CartoonAddict564

I know this one is a bit controversial due to how it treats Adrien at the end. And while I agree, it's a very nice and short fic where we see everyone get what they deserve and more. For better or worse. For what it's worth, I still enjoy the first half.

Chloe's Lament by ChaoticNeutral

Another well-done salt fic detailing the longtime bully finally getting her just desserts in a satisfying manner. While Rafe and I still plan to do a Chloe redemption, this one scratches all the right itches in regards to giving her what she deserves.

Hubris by SuperPsychoNutcase

I'm a bit biased because I'm a current player of Twisted-Wonderland, but this is just a nice "Good things happen to Marinette" fic as she rebuilds her life in another world. Meanwhile, Lila finds out the hard way not everyone is a sucker like she wanted. Yeah, Rafe and I are doing a Lila redemption but it still is a nice read.

Unveiling Lila by catcathlee

A nice series of vignettes showing the many, many ways Lila could get exposed. Not much to say other than they're all very unique and very nice to read.

Juleka vs. the Forces of the Universe by goldenlaurelleaves

A nice and unique twist on the formula that also addresses some frustrating problems of the show while giving focus to an often-ignored character in both the fandom and the show. This is partly what inspired our rendition of Juleka in the fic.

#8024 by SimplyAnotherWriter

Another one that's a bit controversial, but for what it's worth it brings to focus the stark hypocrisy everyone in the show has. And honestly, with how Miraculous as it is likes to blame Marinette for everything, I wouldn't be surprised if this happened in the show proper.

Chaton Noir by ChaoticNeutral

For a non-salt recommendation, I absolutely must recommend this bag of cuteness overload. It's a series of vignettes featuring the dolls Marinette accidentally brought to life via Creation magic. And I recommend seeing a dentist afterwards. Because the fluff will absolutely rot your teeth.

That's about all I can list from off the top of my head. Hope that answers it.

[vennyvenadito]

I watched Derision and….oh God, it’s a mess

I hated it

Everything was so lame

Everyone was so out of character in this episode

And I gonna ask this, when Mari was akumatized, we see her memories right?, alright, now can some please tell….why the heck we could also see other characters point of view???!!! Isn’t this sequence is in Mari’s POV?? Like, someone explain that

And please, look me in the eye and try to tell me this backstory make sense, come, try

Because none of this make fucking sense!

And before you go to tell me otherwise, I’m saying this as some who was in the fandom since season 1, like, when everyone where trying to figure out who Hawkmoth is, that old I am, so no, no try to tell me I don’t know anything about the show and the characters because I know them perfectly

So yeah I can tell, Chloe wasn’t this type of ““eViL””” in previous seasons back then, Marinette wasn’t even scared of her, she was just annoyed by her, even before Alya came she wasn’t really afraid of her, she was like “ugh, this bitch”

And tell me Mari, if you where so traumatized about falling in love with someone, than why didn’t you do the same thing with Luka and Chat Noir huh?, Please explain yourself young lady?

In fact, why are you panicking in front Kim??, you always acted normal around him!!

And for last, I just loveee the doble standard in this show

Marinette can be excused of her stalking behavior towards Adrien, every bad thing she does was just because she is traumatize, so please don’t be harsh on her, after all, she is young, and kids do stupid thing

But nooo, no no, Chloe shouldn’t be excused, forget the fact her mom is a abusive bitch, forget about the fact she openly say to Ladybug she feels useless, forget the fact she was only Adrien’s best friend back then and did care about him (watch “Collector episode 1, season 2), forget the fact she has Andre as a pathetic excuse of father

Because every teen can be forgiven except Chloe

She is evil, she always will be, she can’t change, because Thomas say so, and if you not agree than you are an abusive person, your evil as well

And Mylene…shut up, please

When Thomas would release that not everyone reacts the same way on trauma?

Back to Mari’s panic attacks, everything go to fast to me!, there’s no time no analysis what the hell is going on, also, didn’t she used to be in the public pool before this episode?, like, Mr Pigeon 72 never happen I guess

Also, this episode make her look worse because back in season 3 in Animaestro, she fucking team up with Chloe, Chloe, her bully, the person who made her life back then a living hell, to humiliate Kagami in front Adrien

What the hell Mari!?

And Chat….sweety, honey, I love you, and I insist your deserve better but….please don’t do that, this isn’t you, your not like that, your better than this

Anyway this episode is trash, is literally every salt fic in one episode, every single cliche of a generic backstory perfect for a Wattpad’s fanfic

And please, instead of trying to tell me every episode that Chloe is evil and I should hate her, what not you guys try to focus in more interesting lore instead? Please, like, kwamis, Gabriel and Emilie? (Representation doesn’t count)

And even then, why show this episode in season 5, you literally have a lot of seasons to show this, and you decided this was the right moment??

Ok, that’s all I wanted to say

Se ya folks

[13xwishes]

Adrien Agreste for the character bingo

Character Opinion Meme || { Accepting }

For @strcngered || Adrien Agreste/Chat Noir

Yes, I cheated. Do I give a fuck? NO!

Adrien... is a good character the show threw away. Demoting him to an abused sidekick/trophy boyfriend. I don't need to keep watching after season 3 to know how the route goes. I root for him as much as I can cause his personality is so unique and wonderful, not to mention you want to explore his unlooked background and perspective just because...

Adrien himself is a beautiful person with a way more interesting background as the protagonist. He's a celebrity with little to no control over his life thanks to his over-barring (if not abusive) father. Then becomes a superhero who is very much underappreciated and pushed alot to even physically abused by his spotted female fighting partner (she threw him in a trash can. That's abuse). Meanwhile, he still maintains the sweet personality of trying to be kind, courteous and selfless to people, even strangers. Even to the point of risking his life several times for the people he cares about. He also doesn't get enough support when he needs it because of the bias writing of the show and when it does happen, it get's taken away from him very quickly.

I don't even care about the love square anymore and will never ship it again after taking off the rose colored glasses to see the red-flags in SEASON ONE! (Presents till his 35 birthday and his private schedule is not love. It's STALKING and there's no fucking excuse!)

Marinette doesn't deserve him. Gabriel DAMN WELL doesn't deserve him. The SHOW doesn't deserve him. If I can take Adrien out of the show and put him in another, I'd gladly do so for his sake or just adopt him to treat him better. And i said several times I don't want kids but gods... this kid pulls my heart strings. The writing fucked up alot of characters, but Adrien takes the brunt of it. He is basically the Ken... WITH THE CREATOR ADMITTING THAT!!

There are only three people I can see with Adrien. Either Marc, Nathaniel or my OTP, LUKA.

It's hard not to rant when it comes to Adrien because you know they didn't do him right and you want to protest so much but you know he's never going to get it better in the show. That's why I'll love and support him even just through fanworks because he deserves it. I can't put it in any other way. Adrien is KENOUGH.

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

Your (and other people's) posts about Adrien's realistic behaviour towards the abuse he faces from his father (excluding the Senti nonsense) and how Marinette greatly benefits from Adrien beeing pre-abused (not getting inconvenienced at all by Adrien and Chat Noir bending backwards to please Ladybug + Maribug doesn't see it necessary to change that state) really opened my eyes on several things and are damn interesting to read. Thanks a lot! Those analyses make these relationships really fascinating to dissect and I'm kind of astounded that they are even there in such a realistic manner in the show.

The bitter truth, however, kicks in when I think about that those complex dynamics are not deliberately written but are just a mere byproduct of the story the writers actually wanted to incompetently tell, that is something along the lines of "Gabriel is a little flawed, but ultimately a loving father" and "Our good-hearted heroine Marinette deserves a perfect boyfriend and all the admiration for being the best Ladybug and Adrien is happy to dedicate his existence to her because she "truly" loves him".

Like...even if the writers wanted to write an abuse story with Adrien (which they clearly didn't want to) I seriously doubt they could have pulled that off as intricate as it coincidentally turned out. And that fact alone drives me a little bit crazy (°ロ°) How could they accidentally write their "loving" heroine and "loving" father character like that? How can Adrien show realistic behaviour an abuse victim could have but to the writers he's just perfect like that? It absolutely baffles me and makes me wonder if the writers themselves have a little skewed view on abuse where they never realized abusive behaviour in their real life and think that's just normal (even though I generally like to avoid making assumptions about creators on basis of their works).

Anyway, thanks for your time and writing interesting, thoughtful posts, it's always a joy to read!

Yeah, it's not a good look for anyone. It's also absolutely one of those cases of the characters being unable to be better than the writers. Because the writers don't seem to be aware that Adrien is a victim, no one can react properly to it and it leads to a lot of concerning writing.

The one that always makes me cringe, but that I don't think I've mentioned before is how they love to have Adrien's friends confront Gabriel when Adrien is denied something and NO! By the gods, that is the WORST thing that you could do to help an abuse victim! DO NOT confront the abuser while the victim is still at their mercy because all that you're going to do is make the abuser mad and get the victim hurt.

If you know - or even just think - that someone in an abusive situation, then I implore you to read guides on this topic as it's an incredibly tricky road to navigate. Doing the wrong thing can have all kinds of nasty consequences like driving the victim into the abuser's arms or getting them hurt. Pretty much everything about the way Adrien's friends handle it is wrong to the point where I have one fic where Adrien confesses that he keeps things from them for fear of them confronting his father and making his situation worse.

On a slightly more positive note, I'm pretty sure that I've mentioned this topic before, but one of the things that feeds my brain rot is how perfectly Miraculous setup a healthy give and take dynamic between the romantic leads. It's hard to do that, but they pulled it off and then completely failed to use it! You have Marinette needing support on the hero side because that's where all of her pressure comes from while Adrien needs support on the civilian side because that's where all of his pressure comes from. It's a great way to allow both of the romantic leads to play the support giver role while also allowing them to play the support taker role, but somehow, we never get that. Adrien doesn't get much support on either side even when he needs it most.

It will forever bother me that the seasons whose focus was his father dying was somehow also the season where multiple episodes were dedicated to him helping Marinette with her romance trauma and trying to be "worthy" of her love. They have made this adorable little romance so unhealthy and it hurts me.

Btw, all of the above is why Ladrien is my favorite side pre-reveal. I love, love, love letting Ladybug be more open about her struggles because you know that she'll never "burden" Chat Noir, but she'll happily talk to Adrien about things like that since they don't effect him (she already does this with Alya, it's absolutely in character). On the other side, Adrien is usually so private, but he would absolutely be an open book with his Lady if she asked him to be, but that won't happen while he's Chat Noir, thus Ladrien having my heart when it comes to writing a more balanced and open pre-reveal relationship. Only side that let's me do it properly.

[gale-gentlepenguin]

Gale Ranks: Miraculous Ladybug Classmates

Thats Right! I am going to be ranking Marinette and Adrien's classmates from my Least Favorite to My favorite.

Rules:

I will be judging based on Bustier's Class. So No Zoe, Kagami, or Marc. Even if they hang out.

Marinette and Adrien will be Excluded from this list (Think of them as Honorary 1 and 2 if included)

I will be using all of the episodes that have come out as reference. And there will be potential spoilers up to Episode 20 of season 5.

This isnt about which classmates are the best or worst. Its about My personal like or dislike of a classmate.

Including Marinette and Adrien there are 15 students. So this will be out of 13.

____________________________________________________________

13th. Sabrina Raincomprix

(She doesnt deserve a gif.)

Yea... after the recent episodes I really cant bring any sort of desire to like you. Oh sure Chloé is cruel and Lila is a manipulator... Sabrina is just a spineless worm that lets others get hurt or even ASSISTS in it. There is a corrupt cop joke here but its too easy. Also even with that she has no personality outside of Chloé Lackey. Chloé wouldnt be able to pull off most of her evil schemes without someone doing the dirty work and sorry Sabrina, thats you.

12th. Chloé Bourgeois

A moment of silence for the wasted Character potential... Okay. So yea Chloé sucks. Granted the season 4 and 5 have gone so over the top with showing that season 2 and 3 were not actually important that it causes massive whiplash. I cant find myself hating her like I can with sabrina. I just pity this character. And that is even AFTER I saw what happened in Derision, though at this point I have no interest in seeing a redemption. The writers could have made her heel turn back to evil more believable IF they did it gradually with more effort. But its clear that there was no effort to do so.

11th. Lê Chiến Kim

This man went from top 4 on my list to BARELY missing the top 10. Just goes to show how much one episode can change one's view on a character. In some ways I actually would say I like him less than Chloé now... but Kim at least did apologize and did say he would make an effort to be better. But MAN, when I found out what he did I was watching Chat noir BEAT HIS ASS ON LOOP. You know I was about to give that boy THESE HANDS for that s***. Derision really shifted everyone's view on this once lovable himbo, now he is a dumbass.

10.Rose Lavillant

I just dont like her design that much. Her personality is the stereotypical bubbly girl. And while she does get some exploration on why that is... its never touched on again. Also I am a touch salty about Migration. Juleka was expecting to hear a confession but WE ALL GOT BAITED AND SWITCHED. Guess the show cant have any girl confessing to another girl unless that girl being confessed to is Marinette.

9. and 8. Ivan Bruel and Mylène Haprèle

So to me these two are basically interchangable in terms of ranking. Ivan is the gentle giant that is misunderstood. Mylene is the soft scarred cat that wants the world to be a better place. If I had to pick, i would say I prefer Myléne more, but thats because she gets more character development.

7. Lila Rossi

So Lila always struck me as a character with huge potential. The problem is the writers have no idea how to write a cruel, calculating and manipulative character without dumbing down everyone else to make her seem smart. Now in season 5 I have found myself starting to like her more. Is it because the writing got better? F*** no, its just been more fun with her in it. She is just clearly having more fun with it, and just seeing how the ridiculous plans somehow work almost makes it funny. Also its clear she is being set up as the next big bad, so I cant wait to see how convoluted the show makes her to make her WORSE than Gabriel. So unlike Chloé whose cartoonish evilness feels like a waste, with Lila it feels more fun to watch.

6. Max Kante

He built Markov. Plus after Gamer he has been a pretty solid character. I also do enjoy his support of his Idiot Friend Kim. Even if Kim doesnt deserve it. Also, he has the best transformation sequence. Boy goes WAY too hard for it. I also just think he is a charming character.

5. Nathanael Kurtzberg

Tomato son. While it took me some time to forgive him for Reverser. He is basically a shipper with Marc and its a fun time. I enjoy their plans and adorable antics. But part of me still misses season 1 Nathanael, wonder if he still had a crush on Marinette. Not much else to add, just that he is fun to have on screen and his english dub voice is still dope.

4. Juleka Couffaine

She has my favorite design of the Classmates. She does develop more as the show goes on, I would say she has the most consistant development of the classmates outside of the top 3 contenders. Juleka is now the lead of Kitty Section, and has some incredible Lyrics within her. She wants to stand out and wants to stop being a wall flower. I can respect her guts and attempts at growing and improving.

3. and 2. Alya Cesaire and Nino Lahiffe

The respective best friends of Adrien and Marinette. They are likely the most known about classmates of the Miracuclass. Well Alya is. Nino sadly doesnt get as much delved into. That being said, both are supportive friends and go to great lengths to help them. Nino is surprisingly the more chaotic of the two resulting in him thinking Chat noir was stealing his girl OR forming a resistance against Monarch. Alya learning her best friend's identity and being her emotional rock. Now I thought I would put Alya higher than Nino, but Nino's charm and antics make it hard to dismiss and so I have them both as a tie. Though they also had some moments (Thanks to bad writing) that make me cringe a bit.

1. Alix Kubdel

The most consistently written character in the entire class. The Time travel hero, a character that in my opinion is slept on a lot more than she should be. While I am not crazy about time travel, I do enjoy Alix as a character. She is fun loving and ready to call people out on their BS, also she gets some great lines. She also shows how much of a supportive friend she is to nathanael, Marinette, Ladybug and Chat noir. Its sad she had to go into the time stream to hide from monarch, but it is still a fun way to send a character off for a time

[standreamy]

Tales of Shadybug and Claw Noir quick review (SPOILERS)

I have very mixed opinions on this special, mostly negative.

As always I personally think there are several writing issues. First of all, the fact that most of the pre-established lore rules, at least what little they did enstablish, were ignored for moving the plot forward in this special and for giving the vibe of "bad guys", probably justifying it with the multiverse. If the only difference was supposed to be in the roles of protagonist and antagonist, then not so many things should change, like the weapon and their purpose. Furthermore, I find it absurd that the issue of the 5 minute limit is actually being explained to us for the first time after 5 seasons, clearly invented on the spot. There are a lot of things where we're told we should know, but in truth nothing was said before in the series. I feel like the multiverse is not something we HAD to learn about before, but the consequences of breaking the 5 minute rule? Yeah.

A lot of use of the shock value without really enstablishing what will make it shocking and touching eventually.

We also see very little about the alternate world. Marinette basically chooses that route because it's assumed that Alya didn't sit next to her at the beginning of the year (it's apparently also said in the novel that she became an orphan, but that's not explained or shown here). Adrien instead, because his mother died and he wants to bring her back (Although it is clearly stated before in the special that he didn't know about the Wish before coming to that universe). While also it's interesting to see the roles swapped, seen how it was treated in the main series, I don't quite like that it's implied that one of the Agreste family would necessarily be a toxic figure (as we don't see other usiverses being both positive figures), especially if in that case Gabriel was caring and capable of going through mourning.

The basic idea of the special was interesting, but I don't quite enjoy how it was handled...

This deserved more space and more insight on the other world, to help us empathize with characters that Thomas wanted us to cry with. There are scenes that would be very nice, but it needed better bases in my opinion. The only thing I promote is the storyboard of certain scenes and the soundtrack.

I also enjoyed Giulia Andrada and I think Kanae Kondo? (It seems her art)

Ah, the final "reformed" Ladybug costume is better than both of the original in my opinion XD