#sending out 2023 with my last fave

[fell-contract]

😤 // 🥰

[inevitably-johnlocked]

Hi! I'm craving some cozy autumn vibes johnlock fics to read in the cold season. Do you have some recs? Lots of love <3

Hi Lovely!!

Oh what a fun list idea!! I can't believe I've never thought of doing one given that Autumn is my fave season! I know more fics than what I picked here for you take place in the Fall, but I've only included ones with the season in the tag. If anyone has more fics, PLEASE add them and give me a hand :)

Hope you enjoy these fics!!

AUTUMN / FALL FICS

See also:

Hot and Cold Fics (June 2022)

Halloween and Ghosts (updated Oct 31/21)

Halloween Fics 2023 (MFLs)

BOOKMARKS

And as the seasons change, I love you more by Teatrolley (NR, 3,219 w., 1 Ch. || Fluff and Angst, Est. Rel., Marriage / Proposal) – A year in the lives of John and Sherlock, essentially.

In the Bleak Midwinter (A Canticle for Advent) by CaitlinFairchild (M, 3,476 w., 1 Ch. || Angst, Injury, Missing Scenes, HLV Timeline) – In the autumn of 2014, Mary Watson shot Sherlock Holmes. This is what happened after.

Let me be the wallpaper that papers up your room by Teatrolley (NR, 3,966 w., 1 Ch. || Est. Rel., Two Idiots in Love, Fluff, Domestics) – Four seasons in the life of Sherlock and John, really.

Pater Noster by SilentAuror (E, 34,256 w., 2 Ch. || Case Fic, HLV/S3 Fix It Fic, Family Trauma, Sherlock POV, Villain Mary) – During the autumn that John is staying at Baker Street again after Sherlock was shot, he ruminates over the similarity between Sherlock's shot and the one that killed his father when he was fifteen. Cold case meets series 3 fix-it. Part I takes place entirely within His Last Vow, Part II takes place starting at the end of HLV and continues after.

Act IV by SilentAuror (E, 39,707 w., 1 Ch. || HLV Fix-It, First Person POV Sherlock, Infidelity, Angst, Drama) – After Sherlock is shot, John moves back into Baker Street. They spend the autumn together as John tries to make sense of his life and make some important decisions about both Mary and Sherlock. Canon-compliant, excerpts from His Last Vow.

MARKED FOR LATER

Into the Gloaming by Vulpesmellifera (M, 8,385 w., 4 Ch. || Heavy Angst, Child Death, Grief / Mourning, Mentions of Cancer, Corvids, Fever Dreams, Hopeful Ending) – She lays the sage bundle down in one of his seashells, avoiding the label. How he loved cataloging natural items. That sharp mind of his so naturally tended to the sciences, and she’d taken great joy in encouraging him all his life. All the first thirteen years of it. The last year has been entirely different. His hand lies just outside the white comforter. When she touches it, the chill of his skin sends a shiver down her spine. His lips move, his voice as soft as dead, dry leaves. “What’s that, love?” she says. “In the trees,” he says, his eyes still closed. “Is it John there in the trees? I think he’s waiting for me.” Viola turns her gaze out the window and to the closest tree, a resplendent cherry in the throes of autumn. In the branches there, for just a second, she thinks she sees it: a black bird, feathers gleaming in the sun.

A Thousand Kisses Deep by Susan (E, 12,689 w., 1 Ch. || PODFIC AVAILABLE || Time Travel, Longing, Angst, Post S1, Time Travel Fix It) – “Come here,” Sherlock said and when he did, he put his arm across John’s shoulder, and pulled him close. John let him, and after a moment, rested his head against Sherlock’s chest. Sherlock felt the familiar ache, a longing for what might have been. If only he’d been braver, more sure of John’s feelings. He dropped his arms and stepped back. It was too late. Things were as they were meant to be. But it was autumn in Sussex, and everything was changing. If you were given a chance to go back to the beginning and make things right, would you take it?

Hot Water Bottle by khorazir (T, 18,436 w., 1 Ch. || Post TLD / TFP Doesn’t Exist, Emotional Hurt/Comfort, Misunderstandings, Communication, Demisexual Sherlock, Bisexual John, Autumn, Bed Sharing, Developing Relationship, First Kiss) – A case in one of the remotest corners of the Lake District, a storm, an inn, a broken boiler, a room with two beds but only one hot water bottle, and two men who have a lot to sort out between them – all of this makes for a night to remember.

Johnloctober by prettysailorsoldier (E, 169,945 w., 31 Ch. || Assorted AU’s || Alternate First Meetings, Blow Jobs, Hand Jobs, 30 Day OTP Challenge, Prompts, Halloween / Autumn, Assorted Tags) – 31 days of autumnal Johnlock with prompts from all of you! There will be a bit of everything, but you can check the tags for more specifics.For a summary of every chapter, as well as individual tags, click here.

Enigma by khorazir (M, 289,667 w., 23 Ch. || Codebreaker / WWII / Imitation Game-Inspired AU || Case Fic, Espionage, Period-Typical Homophobia / Sexism, Pining Sherlock, Inexperienced / VirginSherlock, Implied / Referenced Drug Use, Non-Graphic Violence) – It’s the autumn of 1941, war is raging in Europe, German U-boats are raiding Allied convoys in the Atlantic, the Luftwaffe is bombing English cities, and the cryptographers at Bletchley Park are working feverishly to decode their enemies' encrypted communications. One should consider this challenge and distraction enough for capricious codebreaker Sherlock Holmes. But the true enigmas are yet waiting to be deciphered: an unbreakable code, a strange murder, and the arrival of Surgeon Captain John H. Watson of the Royal Navy.

[scarletwinterxx]

loving you is easy - mark lee imagine

hiiiii, 127 cb i have been summoned😅 for the past few weeks i've been inactive on all socmeds, sorry for the very few and slow posts. anyways, let's talk Fact Check haha what's your fave track? i think mine's Parade. the vocals in that one is soooo good.

So yeah i hope you like this one, i'll be back when I can💛🌻

if you have a request or scenario you want me to do, just send me a message I'll see what I can do😊💌

For my other works you can check them out here, and for my other story series’ you can check them out here.

All works are copyrighted ©scarletwinterxx 2023 . Do not repost, re-write without the permission of author.

(gif not mine, credits to rightful owner)

"It's one plane ride away, I'll be there in 3 months"

"That's 3 months too long" he grumbles, still pouting as he zips the last of his luggage. Mark hated being away for you, too many days and nights your time zone's don't line up. By the time it's morning for you, he'll be saying goodnight.

But now, things are about to change. This will be the last time you're saying goodbye to him for a long time but he doesn't know that. For now it's your little secret.

"It'll fly by fast, just like every other time. Now come here and give me cuddles, stop pouting like a kid" you tease him, opening your arms to welcome him.

Feeling his arms go around you, you further confirmed a fact you've known for years. The two of you can be continents away from each other, but your heart will always stay with one another. Mark really has become your home and in his arms are where you feel the safest and most loved.

"If you're sad then it's gonna make me sad, I don't want the last night to be all tears" you tell him, feeling his embrace tighten against you. He kisses the top of your head a few times before letting you go.

"You're right, sorry. No more sulking, it's just 3 months then you'll come to me" he smiles at you, the cute little dimple you love so much appearing on his cheek. You stand on your tiptoe to kiss it, savoring the warmth of him against your lips.

And you were right, the 3 months did fly by fast. Mainly because you were busy packing your apartment to move to another continent. You didn't keep much apart from your stuff and some of Mark's. It's kind of hard to travel with everything so you got rid of what you can.

The only person who knew you were coming was Johnny, who is currently waiting for you at the airport. Easily spotting the 6 foot Chicago guy from a distance.

"There she is! About time you got here, I don't think I can take another day of Mark whining about how much he misses you" he jokes, giving you a quick hug and taking your stuff to carry it himself.

"He doesn't know I'm coming, I'm suppose to fly out this weekend" you tell him while following behind

"Oh believe me I know, he won't let us forget"

You chuckle at his story, just thinking about surprising Mark makes you grin.

He dropped you off at Mark's apartment, you're familiar with the place since you've stayed here every time you fly over. What he doesn't know is you're here to stay with him for good.

It did took a lot of courage to make this decision but you didn't doubt it for a second. You know there's no other place you'd rather call home than where he is.

For a couple of hours you rested, cleaned the few dishes on the sink and picked up the towel he threw on the floor. A habit you knew he had, you've had that talk with him more than a few times and he always promises he won't do it again. You let him off the hook, for now.

You were in the bedroom when you hear someone by the door. Mark entered his place, tired from the whole day of work to notice the other pair of shoes by the door.

He threw his bag by the couch, along with his coat. He then walked to the kitchen to grab a bottle of water, resting against the counter while he drinks and take a moment to look around.

This time he notices the dishes he was suppose to do this morning was gone. He brushed it off thinking he must've just forgotten he already did it. He then walked to the bedroom, the first thing he noticed was the towel that he definitely threw by the bed this morning. He remembers it because he's been thinking about it all day and how you'll be mad if you found out he threw it on the floor yet again.

He looks around, checking to see anything missing or different just in case someone broke in. But who would clean up if they're here to steal, he thoughts.

Mark then walks towards the bathroom to check, nothing there too so he walks back the bedroom. Just when he was about to go outside, you jumped out of your hiding spot to surprise him

"SURPRISE!"

"WHAT THE F- OH MY GOD WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE" you didn't even get the chance to walk towards him because he's already running to you. Picking you up in an embrace.

"Is this for real or am I dreaming?" you hear him mumble

You giggle, patting him on the back so he could put you down. "This is real silly. I'm really here" you tell him.

He grabs you by the face and kisses you. As his lips lands on yours, he knew this was really real. You're actually here with him.

You can feel him smile against your lips, tilting your head to the side to kiss him deeper. Too many days wish he was with you, now he's here and you're not going to let go that easily.

He walks backwards until the back of his legs hit the bed. Landing on it gently with you still in his arms. You straddle his legs while the two of you get lost in each others kisses.

"Okay okay wait a sec" you giggle, pushing your lover away gently. Mark follows your lips though, kissing you a few more times before he lets you go but not too far.

"When did you get here?" he asks you

"Today, Johnny picked me up at the airport so I could surprise you" you tell him, your hands intertwine around his shoulders.

"I could've come and pick you up" he pouts.

Oh your sweet sweet boy.

You smile at him, rubbing your nose against his. Feeling like you're on cloud nine now that you're back together.

"Then it wouldn't be a surprise" you tell him, speaking of surprise you can't wait to see his reaction once you tell him your news.

"How long are you staying? I can take a few days off so we can go out" he tells you excitedly.

For you he would do just about anything. He can put his world on pause, stop everything for you.

"About that..."

"What? You can't stay that long?" he asks, already feeling sad but he tries not to let you see it.

"Actually, I'm not gonna go back" you tell him, not sure how to break the news to him either

"Huh?"

"Surprise number 2 I guess, I wanted to tell you for months now but I waited until everything is settled. So yeah. I'm here to stay, that is if you're looking for a roommate?" you ask

Mark didn't say anything for a couple of seconds, your words still processing in his mind.

"You mean you're staying here, with me ? Here? and you're not going to fly back? You're staying with me?"

You can't help but laugh lightly at him, pulling him closer once again to kiss him

"I'm gonna stay right here" you whisper, looking straight into his eyes.

"But what about your work? your friends? I can't ask you to leave your life there"

"Baby you're not asking me, I want to. I have friends here too, I can call my friends there and we can visit them. Plus you're my bestfriend. As for work, it just so happened they were looking for someone to relocate here to Korea. It was like fate wanted me to be here"

"Are you sure? I don't want you to give up everything, I don't mind the flights-"

"You do, I do. We both do. We just never said it outloud because we didn't want to be sad, but all I can think of when you're not around is how much I want to be with you. To be honest it's harder for me to be there than moving here where I know I could be with you"

He looks at you, trying to find the words to say

"Are you really really sure?" he asks again

"I wouldn't be here if it wasn't. So you're stuck with me, for good" you tease a smile out of him

"It's hard for me too. It's the hardest when I'm so tired and I come back here and all I can think of is how much I want to come home to you. Every flight away from you was never easy"

"I know"

"So I guess this is your anniversary present?" he jokingly asks, you get off of his lap to stand up.

"It'll be hard to top this one" you joke

"I can just ask you to marry me" he says ever so casually, not missing how your cheeks reddened. You hit him lightly making your boyfriend laugh

"Hey, that's not fair"

"You're the one who's stuck me, you know I'm never letting you go now?"

"Good, cause I'm not going anywhere. Here's to 7 more years"

He smile at you before standing up to hug you again,

As you stare at each other eyes you can't help but feel this warm sensation in your chest. You really are home.

"I read somewhere that our cells change every 7 years or so" you mumble, he hums waiting for you to continue

"It's been 7 years since we first met, and until now I still feel the same way about you. I want every cell in my body to know what it feels like to love you, I want it to never forget how warm and lovely it feels it be in love with you. 7 years from now, 14 years and until the last cycle of this life, I want all of me to love all of you"

He stares at you, soaking each word coming out of your lips like a spell enchanting him. Making him fall even deeper in love with you.

"You know they say love isn't easy, but loving you is easy. It's like it's the only thing my heart and soul was made for. Every thought in my head, awake or even in my dreams, is always you" he tells you.

You can feel the tears starting to build up from too much happiness you're feeling right now.

"Wanna hear something crazy?" you mumble

"Do tell" he chuckles

"If you ask me to marry you right now, I'd say yes"

He smiles at you before closing the distance once again, like he just sealed a promise. Speaking a silent vow to make that come true, maybe tonight or tomorrow or 7 days/months from now. All he knows is he will live this life with you.

[monsterkin-culture-is]

Top 10 Fave Vampire Songs 🩸

Another species songlist! Honestly I like some of the songs here more than a few on my werewolf list...

As usual, feel free to send requests in the notes or my asks! Name links lead to Spotify.

10. I Don't Care by VIOLENT VIRA. This one isn't an explicitly vampiric song but it has all the vampiric female rage in it and it's one of my all time favourite metal songs. Her screams and vocals are insanely powerful.

9. Lonely Vampire by Weathers. If you feel you just need some feel good pop amongst the gothic angst of being a bloodsucker then this is definitely the song for you! It's one to get up and dance to.

8. Bloodsuckers by Johnny Hollow. One of those songs where I haven't picked up the artist yet but definitely will. The instrumentals on this one are like nothing else. Honestly though this song makes me think more of carnivorous gnomes than vampires but that's my problem...

7. Vampires by Night Club. Night Club has perfected their dark electronic music and their entire discography sounds like what would play at a vampire nightclub. How convenient they have a song named Vampires! They sound like if Draculaura went raving and have the black and pink aesthetic to match.

6. Cold Blood by Valen. Yes there is a certain point in these where I just add songs I like that have a keyword in the title but you have to trust it fits I promise!! In 2023 this song was 43rd on my Spotify top songs. In my defence the lyrics & vibe are still vampiric...

5. Lesbian Vampyres From Outer Space by Scary Bitches. Another Scary Bitches song in 5th position! Just like the last one this is definitely an experience... an experience I love though! Again, this is one you have to hear for yourself. The WW2 references really make the song.

4. Blood by Starbenders. Not explicitly a vampire song but definitely fitting for an angsty human x vampire drama. Starbenders as a band have such a unique and lively sound to them. My other favourite is Cover Me, which would honestly also fit in that theoretical vampire drama.

3. Bloody Creature Poster Girl by In This Moment. Massive slasher final girl (potentially turned villain) energy. I only discovered In This Moment about a month ago through a friend but I have been addicted to their music ever since - they're on all my main playlists! Definitely a song I associate with some of my fictionkins & werewolf kintype too.

2. Lust for a Vampyre by I Monster. This song feels like a lovestruck daydream. It's sweet, sinister and sooo catchy! Also who doesn't love a good human x vampire song.

1. Old Money by Jonathan Young & Caleb Hyles. This isn't just my #1 vampire song but one of my favourite songs of all time. Collectively we can ignore the cringe and appreciate Young & Hyles outstanding vocals and the catchy tune. Also bonus points - it's explicitly about vampires! This is a big band number straight out of a gothic musical.

That's all for now! Let me know if you liked any of these & feel free to make your own additions in the notes!

[nerdalmighty]

What are your top picks for your favorite Good Omens fanfics? 👀

-AnnTickwittee

Oh my dear AnnTickwittee, THANK YOU for this ask. There are a bunch of great ones out there but here are some I've loved recently! Also, everyone PLEASE feel free to leave more recs in comments or reblogs or tags! I LOVE a good fic!

Weirdly, most of my faves were written before S2 premiered - PLEASE recommend me some good S2 stuff, and ones you'd consider staples in the GO fandom - I've missed out on a LOT of great content - help me find it/catch up! (Note: All fics listed below are COMPLETE and feature happy endings.)

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1. The Rose and the Serpent by @brightwanderer | Rating: M | Status: Complete | Chapters: 12 | Word Count: 55,795 | Published: 2020-05-31 | Completed: 2020-08-15

Summary: AU, retelling of “Beauty and the Beast”. Quite honestly, sending Aziraphale off into the forest to be held hostage by a giant snake in a cursed castle isn’t even the worst thing Gabriel’s ever done to him, and at least it means a change of scene. But then neither the snake nor the castle turn out to be quite what he’s expecting…

My Review: Fave fave FAVE at the moment! I discovered this one from this tiktok, fully thinking it was going to be a silly little romp and was instead met with beautiful prose, adorable banter, and moments that literally made me go "AWW" out loud (which I NEVER do). I meant to read a few chapters per night before bed and then accidentally read the whole thing in one go. I stayed up until 4am reading and then woke up 4 hours later STILL thinking about it. Aziraphale is the perfect lead in this one, with Crowley as the wily yet lovable snake that lives in a cursed/enchanted castle with some familiar faces. CLASSIC pining ensues. The author does a great job of world building and character development and I find myself wishing I could read it again with fresh eyes. It's beautiful and adorable and I can't recommend it enough. Favorite quote: "'I love him,' he said. 'Let me in.' And the gates swung open before him."

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2. a lighthouse (burning) by @books-and-omens | Rating: M | Status: Complete | Chapters: 12 | Word Count: 108,477 | Published: 2022-03-26 | Completed: 2023-06-13

Summary: In good weather, one can see the lighthouse at the Rock from the shore: a dot on the horizon, a distant star flashing red and white and red again. It’s been dark for a fortnight, of course—ever since the incident that every newspaper had breathlessly written about, that the paper-boys on the corners had shouted themselves hoarse over. This is where Aziraphale is headed: it is his duty, after all, to find out what happened, to make sure that the beacon can be safely lit once again. He does not expect Crowley to follow him to the windswept isle, to the lonely lighthouse at what could just as well be the edge of the world. Crowley follows him anyway.

My Review: THIS ONE! This one is a good old fashioned mystery! The humans believe this lighthouse is haunted, especially since its last three keepers vanished without a trace, but Aziraphale and Crowley know that can't possibly be the case. As such, they decide to investigate for themselves. It's an adorable slow burn period piece that had me weeping at certain points with twists and turns abound, and I really liked how the author handled the mystery and lore! Deep lore is tough to do convincingly and I found myself believing everything the author said. I can't tell you how thrilled I was when I KIND OF clocked what the author was going for with their mystery. Their explanation for everything was far better than anything my monkey brain could have come up with. Also that S2 ep of OFMD that featured a lighthouse in the beginning came out after I read this fic and I got all giddy thinking about Aziracrow here. I literally don't think I'll ever see a lighthouse again and not think of this gorgeous fic. EDIT: Also, here's a YouTube video that appeared in my recommended shortly after I read this. It's super interesting that disappearances like this have happened in real life ����

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3. If We've Got Nothing (We've Got Us) by @kedreeva | Rating: G | Status: Complete | Chapters: 4 | Word Count: 19,897 | Published: 2019-06-17 | Completed: 2020-03-02

Summary: Two months after the failed apocalypse Aziraphale finds the first dark feather growing in his wings. A story about middle grounds, ineffable plans, and what happens when the world doesn't end.

My Review: Another fic I found on Tiktok. The edit itself was so gorgeous I decided to give it a go and was not disappointed. It was written before S2 was even announced so it takes some liberties with fanon (Crowley was Raphael in the canon of this world, etc), but it's a lovely, relatively quick read. Crowley and Aziraphale are on their own side, finally, and soon, others join their ranks. All while God watches from afar. The prose is beautiful and I come back to the tiktok all the time (I saved it onto my phone lol). It was also fun to go back and rewatch the tiktok after reading and realize that the editor stitched together parts from each chapter into something new and amazing. It's not a romantic fic, not in the way the others are; it cares more about the aftermath of an apocalypse and shades of gray and how the universe came to be in the first place. I love the POV of God reminiscing on creation and thought it was very well written. Absolutely loved this one! (@anntickwittee, this was the fic I was referring to in the tags of this post, which is probably what prompted you to leave this ask in the first place! 😊)

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4. All That's Best of Dark and Bright by @hope-inthedark | Rating: T | Status: Complete | Chapters: 1 | Word Count: 5,648 | Published: 2020-06-22

Summary: When Crowley drops a bomb on a church, Aziraphale falls in love with him. This should be a secret, but unfortunately, Aziraphale's never been much good at keeping them.

My Review: A one-shot expanding on the 1941 minisode (2019) BEFORE the S2 minisode canonically expanded on it. Recap: Aziraphale's just realized he's in love with Crowley (thank you Michael Sheen for that AMAZING acting choice) and this fic is the author's interpretation of what might have happened after the show cut away from the burning church. I was floored by how many parallels made it from this fic into the actual show both directly and indirectly (Aziraphale says "Not as such" at one point and I'm pretty sure I burst into tears and/or yelped loudly). It's got a good bit of angst to it, the same kind from S2 that makes you scream "WHAT ARE YOU DOING! HE'S RIGHT THERE!" with a happy ending that helped heal my shattered heart. I definitely cried reading this one (affectionate). It's extremely fluffy at the end which EYE LOVE, so if that's your thing, I highly recommend! Favorite Quote: "'I’m afraid I’m quite terribly in love with you,' Aziraphale said unceremoniously. Crowley, who had been in the process of sitting up, promptly fell off the sofa."

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5. the two shepherds of uruk by lupinely | Rating: E | Status: Complete | Chapters: 1 | Word Count: 24,963 | Published: 2023-10-09

Summary: After Aziraphale goes back to Heaven with the Metatron, Crowley reflects. And 4,400 years ago in 2407 BC, in the city of Uruk in ancient Sumer, he and Aziraphale fall in love with humanity, and each other. - “What are you doing here?” asked Aziraphale. Crowley lifted an eyebrow and felt himself start to smile. “I should ask you the same. What are you thinking, coming here with your wings out and the blessed light of Heaven raining down upon you? You’re scaring the mortals.” Aziraphale blushed. Crowley dutifully looked away. It felt disrespectful not to.

My Review: This one-shot is a love letter to history and humanity. I think I found it on twitter? Unfortunately I don't have a link to the tweet or the author's tumblr. What I really love about this one is that the author adds footnotes like the original Good Omens book does. You can absolutely feel the love and care that went into writing and researching for this particular fic, which I can really appreciate as a fellow writer. (For all my Bildad the Shuhite stans out there, this story takes place after, but the vibes are VERY SIMILAR. If you even care.) Crowley and Aziraphale are in Uruk to keep an eye on the humans as they try to build a structure tall enough to reach God (the Tower of Babel). Theoretically, they can both return to their respective sides, but opt to stay on earth (with each other) for 10 years to watch the construction unfold. Pining ensues, NSFW ensues, and as the author puts it, "now featuring Aziraphale as a little country girl tending her sheep ♥" I highly recommend if you want to be sucked into another time period/biblical story and feel MANY different feelings (with a happy ending!)

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I have more bookmarked that I could absolutely recommend if anyone is interested, but these 5 are just the ones that have stuck out to me the most recently!! Believe me, I could go ON, but this post is long enough for now.

If you DO read any of these, please chat with me about them, I'd love to hear your thoughts! Happy reading!

[olderthannetfic]

I do love this season just because the wank that you can see emerge in FFA. The most recent one of course is from BFE and Yuletide! For anyone who did not know:

In 12-25-2023, someone made a comment in a treat they received, saying that there were "issues" with their main gift and that the treay literally saved their day. Of course nonnies would investigate this! What was so wrong with the main gift? What were the issues? Obviously something about the recip DNWs, right?

Well... No, not really.

The main gift was fine. It was a canon divergence AU, that the recip okayed in their letter. It was also whump about the fave character of the recip, also okayed.

So, perhaps, a new DNW? That's a possibility, it happens! And nonnies leave it at that... Until fucking 01-01-2024 came and the recip commented on the main gift... Fucking. Stupid. The recip complained that the fic was an AU, and that that was the issue. The problem: they okayed CANON DIVERGENCE AUs, they did not want "AUs that change everything, like coffee shops" and the like. The author responded the comment (yes, the comment moaning about this was left IN the fic) with screenshots of the letter, the DNW and what the recip okayed. The real issue? The recip does not know how to fucking write. Why on earth would you say "I'm okay with canon deviations/slightly alternate timelines" and then complain that the author DID a deviation from canon. That's not knowing how to write what you actually want.

The recip responded. "Well, congrats. You could have completely ruined someone's Yuletide." Then, they went to Twitter and wrote "I'm glad that it got me and not someone who is more deeply affected".

You are deeply affected. You went to thanks the treat as "saving your day", waited until authors revelations because of paranoia of the gift being "a revenge from Yuletide mods" (yeah, I'm serious), then complained in the FIC itself and went full shithead to the author pointing out your poorly worded letter, and then made bunch of tweets about it in what nonnies described as and "insufferable teacher about to send a formal complaint to the local administration" tone.

If y'all want to see this full, dememe "Dragonlance" (yes, it's from that fandom...). The first chunk of the wank is from 26/12, and the other chunk from 02/01.

Moral of the wank: really, write your DNW well. If you okay something and then receive that something and instead of reflecting that you poorly worded your yes and noes or you found a new DNW or whatever you choose to go to the author an be a full shithead, you really can't fucking complain and play the victim here. Thank god this person said it'd be their "last Yuletide". With recips like that I'd hate to participate at all.

--

Sheesh!

I've occasionally written my requests poorly and—even more occasionally—had this result in fic that wasn't to my taste, but there's no need to be a baby about it!

This sounds like a version of the "no extreme kinks" problem: People often assume everyone else understands some vague concept like "AUs that are too AU" or "Sad endings that are too sad" or "Kinks that are too kinky" without really trying to elaborate on what it is that bugs them. I admit it's not always easy to explain this succinctly, especially if you want to avoid the dread "Only write for me if you're skilled"-sounding letters, but most people can do better than this.

It sounds like maybe they have a weird idea about the boundary between "canon divergence" and "AUs that change everything".

[caralara]

I know Louis' your fave so I hope it's okay that I send you this. But recently the blinkers have been coming off for me in regards to Louis. I think I used to have him up on a bit of a pedestal. I just thought he was this really intelligent guy, really aware of social issues and willing to fight for the right thing and be rebellious when necessary. I don't know. I saw things playing out very differently. But unfortunately, lately, I've been seeing a lot of laziness and complacency and a willingness to settle from him. A lot of contradictions as well. Like he gets the anarchist symbol tattooed but doesn't speak out or place his support behind anything substantial. I'm sorry, legalizing weed is his most political stance. And then being seen with the Starbucks cup and actually covering it in the video like lmao. Not knowing what number year your festival is when he supposedly had big dreams for it. I know this is so small but it irks me that he's been going on about playing the guitar for years. And he is yet to bring it on stage for even one song! I know it comes from a place of self-doubt and insecurity no matter how confident he makes himself appear but like he just doesn't help himself. And fans exaggerating and praising every little thing he does as if he isn't just some basic white man does my head in. Sorry I word vomited on you and I know this sounds harsh but I acknowledge it comes from a bitter place where I feel like his potential is just not being met. At the end it's his life and I genuinely hope he doesn't have many regrets later on.

hi babe

I think I am completely in the same situation as you! I might not be triggered by exactly the same things but I’ve been going over and over it for the last couple days asking myself why I’m so annoyed with him right now?? And I think it really is just the disappointment finding out your fave man is after all, just a man.

Like, to me, it feels like he’s been stagnant since early 2023. right now, to me it feels like he’s just on the hunt for the cheap thrill, getting the validation in that he also can pull massive crowds of screaming girls just like he did during 1D (and it isn’t even the actual validation he’s looking for??? Like he still starts yapping every time a man validates him as if it’s so much more important??)

I feel like he lost focus, or energy, or both. You know, you said it!! You know I love Louis to death, he’s my favourite, and genuinely, I don’t blame him. It makes a lot of sense to me. He’s finally proven himself to not be a flop to all the people doubting him. He’s overcome all the obstacles, did LTWT and had massive success with it, way beyond anyone expected, rode that wave, made a second album that proved he’s not a one hit wonder either, an album he actually enjoyed making, and proved his fans liked it, too. And then… it just kind of stagnated. His team made mistakes and miscalculations. Announcing Asia tour so short notice thinking, then cancelling bc it didn’t sell out, handling the announcements horribly, not realising LTWT was massive bc of all the pent up excitement and desire throughout years of a pandemic, the magnetism of it being the first solo world tour. They also didn’t get it when it came to Milano Summer fest vs. AFHF. The 35k sold out bc it was announced many months in advance and it was the last LTWT show - that’s meaningful to fans. It was easily accessible. You can’t translate just the numbers to „it’s bc he’s popular in Italy,“ there’s so many factors at play they ignored, and therefore AFHF Italy only sold 2/3 of tickets, and a lot of these people didn’t even show up (couldn’t, I better say).

For me, FITF felt like he had checked out a little. He’s plateauing. The excitement and irresistible draw he has is largely due to his resilience, his underdog persona he created that allows normal people to identify with him. And there just wasn’t any… growth since early 2023. He‘s also alienated a large part of his fandom with the bbg pushes, and as you know, I still believe it was all part of the bigger plan to end it, but it does feel like he gave up, got comfortable. And it’s not that I blame him for it necessarily?? Like all he’s been through? It makes a lot of sense to me that now he’s achieved all the things people told him he wouldn’t be able to achieve, that now the burn out sets in, that now, the driving energy of spite and wanting to prove himself has run out.

I feel like the jokes of “oh I’m a pothead I can’t remember if it’s the third or fourth edition of my super duper important close to my heart festival project” or “oh yeah sometimes I forget I’m an actual parent and have a kid” are getting old. Like, it doesn’t serve him anymore it feels like? To me it feels like the weed was a coping mechanism that helped him get through hard times, and that’s completely valid, but now it looks like to me it’s holding him back, blurring his genius.

I’m sorry for the rant back to you. I’m deeply upset because Louis is my escape, my happy place, fandom is my comfort, and I feel like it’s slipping through my fingers because it causes me more upset than happiness at this point. The amount of “kill yourself” messages I have gotten over criticising louis for announcing AFHF so short notice is frankly INSANE. Do people not talk to other people in real life?? How do the people around these people that send those messages deal with them in real life?? It’s so upsetting to see how many people feel comfortable typing out these kind of messages and sending them.

I do hope this feeling of mine calms down, and I can go back to just glorifying louis and have him as my comfort place, because I do not like the thoughts I have and the way it makes me feel.

[laylakeating]

CREATIONS FROM EVERY MONTH OF 2023! (except october but we're not going to talk abt that !!)

Post your favourite and most popular post from each month this year (it’s okay to skip months).

i was tagged by two of the Most talented girlies in the world !! @saw-x and @taiturner ILYYYYY ty for sharing what your brilliant minds came up with this year !!!

JANUARY

MOST POPULAR: britt + karma !! i had so much fun with this set and it was honestly such a good way to start off the year !! FAVOURITE: probably that same set !! also the glee icons pack i made :D

FEBRUARY

MOST POPULAR: from my blog, britt + mike in 207 shsjhs. from teen dramas, brooke in 207 (one of my fave looks of hers) (this was clearly a month for the seventh episodes in second seasons ??) FAVOURITE: barchie + high infidelity for barchiesource !! something a bit different for me creatively but ugh i love it. also glee 514 for gleesource !! again something a lil different !!

MARCH

MOST POPULAR: riverdale returning to television and proving it takes the cake as the funniest show in the world (another rvd is iconic and beyond reproach set for 701) FAVOURITE: a banger month for creative sets !! basically everything i made for barchie week, this unholy trinity MASTERPIECE i made for gleesource, and this djats set + destiny, choice, chance

APRIL

MOST POPULAR: my favourite scene from djats for djats week in green bc apparently i like to make things hard for myself ?? who knew FAVOURITE: again. SO MANY. another month another appreciation week shsjhs. anyway all the sets i made for djats week, more sets for gleesource including santana + valerie and mercedes and santana + river deep mountain high, my santana lesbian visibility set, hsmtmts + tarot cards which took me wayyyy too long to finish, rvd ladies + barbie posters (50s edition), and barchie in 701 for barchiesource in RED (very proud of how it turned out considering i hate giffing in red)

MAY

MOST POPULAR: quinn + tropes for glee appreciation week !! FAVOURITE: everything i made for glee week (there were quite a few bangers), my 2 9-1-1 sets shjshsj - maddie + you first (a banger) and madney + paper rings (another banger), also the first (and only rip) set in my layla episodes series (layla + 101), and this jordayla + proposal foreshadowing i did over on jordayla gifs !!

JUNE

MOST POPULAR: this halle bailey set <33 FAVOURITE: once again. everything i made for all american appreciation week !!! special shout outs to layla + the eras tour and the layla set i made for day 1 !!

JULY

MOST POPULAR: nancy + the wizard of oz horror (that makes sense i swear) FAVOURITE: the aforementioned nancy set, also stancy + persuasion, the little mermaid live action and the quote that made me insane for a few weeks, layla + the lip pout she does (she's adorable), AND last but certainly not least, this pride and prejudice edit which was just nothing like i have ever done before that i LOVEDDDD

AUGUST

MOST POPULAR: ashlyn + giving maddox mouth to mouth (her delivery of AS A FRIEND still sends me into orbit) FAVOURITE: HSMTMTS MONTH BABEYYYYY !! fave sets include (but are not limited to there are too many) gina for hsmtmts week, fave songs (also for hsmtmts week), rina + maybe this time + motion blur (THIS TOOK ME WAY TOO LONG BTW), this antoine set bc he is an icon, madlyn + daylight (still a serve), rina + invisible string (to this day the most insane thing i have ever made), hsmtmts + a meme summary (just your regularly unhinged content honestly), and this jet/maddox set <33

SEPTEMBER

MOST POPULAR: this cinderella 1950 set in pink/blue <3 FAVOURITE: okay so we have ej playing cupid/being a love prophet HSJHSJ, TWO icon packs, one for olivia rodrigo and one for lexie grey, and also the britt + her love for my headband set bc it was the only other thing i made in september and i was worried it'd get lonely

OCTOBER

MOST POPULAR: apparently you have to post something for it to be popular FAVOURITE: i made many sets in my mind dw

NOVEMBER

MOST POPULAR: blair looking excellent (as always) for teendramas !! FAVOURITE: finn + bigger than the whole sky (part of my glee midnights series) (a true labour of love) (still obsessed with it btw)

DECEMBER

MOST POPULAR: percy !!!! for pjosource FAVOURITE: everything i made for 12 days of rina (there are only 5 days rip), and OF COURSE, to round the year off with a bang, the extraordinarily belated 2k celebration set for justine, AKA dair + midnights !!!!!!!!!

tagging some beloveds <3 @alinaastarkov, @jordanlayla, @katherines, @kayascodelorio, @perccyjackson, @yenvengerberg !!

[kingsofeverything]

Happy 28th!!! A couple of faves from this year:

https://www.tumblr.com/gaymoustache/715727749746180096/tupelo-honey-by-superglass

https://www.tumblr.com/28goldens/734080510252515328/apple-pie-baked-just-right-rated-e-99k

https://www.tumblr.com/harruandlou/729093004810502144/you-were-in-my-dream-e-59k

https://www.tumblr.com/harruandlou/732799638679273472/i-was-yours-i-wish-you-were-mine-e-55k

thanks, anon!

Tupelo Honey by superglass

“What,” Louis starts, always hating how silence like this drives him crazy, “what exactly are you gaining from all this? All this, following a mediocre band around. Why do you do that?” Harry giggles around her cigarette, looking out at the alley. When she smiles, her teeth peek out behind her red lips, giving him the chills— right down to his core. He doesn’t think he’s ever seen a smile so pretty. So enthralling he can’t take his eyes off of it. “I’ve got nothing better to do, Louis.” or Louis is a roadie for a rock band, and Harry is their groupie. 1970s au.

apple pie baked just right by 28goldensfics

“You’re sweet, thank you.” Harry was speaking so quiet it was almost eerie, but his fingers squeezed against Louis’ hand again. “I already feel like I can pretty much be myself with you. I’m glad you moved here, I’ve needed a friend. I hope you keep getting that breath of fresh air you need here.” Louis’ heart felt like it could pound out of his chest and onto the floor in front of them. “I’m starting to think I will.” — Louis has to get away. The news of his father’s terminal diagnosis, the loss of his job, and the breakup with his girlfriend leads Louis to leave for a life of slower things in the small town of Cedar Hills. His new neighbor is the Cox Family Apple Farm. Harry Styles, the oldest child of the Cox Family, might just teach him how to live life a little simpler, bake an apple pie, and breathe.

you were in my dream by staybeautiful

“I had a sex dream about Harry.” Louis slapped his free hand over his mouth after the words slipped out. Zayn paused, his hand freezing as he was about to take a bite, his head snapping up to look at Louis. Louis could relate, it’s how he’d felt that morning after he’d woken up. He’d laid in bed for fifteen minutes trying to figure out what had happened, why it had turned him on so much, and then patiently waiting for his erection to go down. “Like… my Niall’s Harry? Harry Styles?” Zayn clarified, his face bewildered as if trying to comprehend what had just happened. “Do you even like Harry?” “His last name is Styles?” or Louis woke up after having a sexy dream about his best friend’s boyfriend’s best friend resolved to never think about it again. He hardly knew Harry, so what difference would it make? But when they are thrown together only a few days later, Louis had to admit, his subconscious might have been onto something.

i was yours (i wish you were mine) by staybeautiful

“Harry Styles!” His name rang out clear through the city streets. He turned quickly back to the bar, startled by his own name and startled by the voice that called him. Standing in the doorway to the bar, back lit and glowing slightly was Louis. Not an eighteen year old apparition dressed in the same low slung blue jeans and t-shirt with swooping bangs that was always the image in his mind. No, he was Louis now. or Ten years ago Harry dropped his best friend and high school boyfriend off at the train station and never saw him again. Now, he's twenty seven, living in NYC, and dreadfully unlucky in love. He can't stop wistfully thinking of Louis promising that they'd see each other again in ten years time. A chance meeting outside a bar has them tumbling head first into a summer of music, milkshakes, and maybe each other.

SEND ME YOUR FAVORITE FICS FROM 2023

[volaile]

tagged by my brother @beesnutz :P

last song you listened to: descent by fear factory

last movie you watched: the new hunger games!! went to see it at the cinema with two friends :) it was good, unsettling exactly where it needed to be (which was. most of the time LOL) and its managed to pull off the 'act as a standalone but still have room for a sequel if someone wanted to' balance v well. and id watch a sequel! but overall i cant lie i prefer the original trilogy...

currently watching: house md on my own, im on season 7 rn and [spoilers] have finally left huddy hell. i love masters btw my friend masters ❤️she just had her first main pov ep and it was a good un. im also watching doctor who when mine gustes and peris schedules line up, and also taskmaster with guste :)

other things you’ve watched this year: ummmm lots but some of my faves are still across the spiderverse, also limitless and alien, and also american psycho but thats sort of from last year, i watched it nye with nami and it hit 2023 like halfway through for me LOL

currently reading: money by martin amis!! its good ive read time's arrow by him before too. he's got a fun way of writing but idk how i feel about him putting himself as a character in this one lol???!!! also i guess i technically have a few other books on the go too but tbh im not actively reading them... btw if anyone wants my goodreads send me a dm !!! i would love more friends on there

currently listening to: my albums 2023 playlist which is um. 1500 songs strong still. i swear ive listened to plenty its just that i keep adding more oopsy doopsy

currently working on: editing my longish nrmts fic so that i can finally start the last three out of ten chappys.... problem is is that im doing this mostly at work when the bars quiet LOL. im also trying to draw more frequently!! ive made it as easy and low stakes as possible for myself (using a biro in some small lined notebook, means i dont get fixated on making things look perfect and also means i dont need to fill up too much space to finish a full page) but its still a habit in progress ....

current obsession: honestly probably the gym. im following what i guess based on exercises and number of sets and reps would be considered a powerbuilding program?? october saw me doing proper strength building work for the first time Ever rather than just hypertrophy/muscle building and ive finally started doing bench press using an actual barbell rack set up!!! and i really like it :P

ok thats it thank u. all the crans my lovely crans have been tagged i believe so i'll also tag @sevenyeargap @bardicspiration and @adultfiendfinder ❤️ and anyone else who wants to do it go hog wild ok byeeee

[inevitably-johnlocked]

hello steeeeephhhh :D

yet another rant incoming - hold on! (or ignore your choice lmao)

but like-

OKAY.

idk why it took me so long to watch the rdj sherlock holmes movies but like... HAHAAHAHAHAH HOW CAN A MOVIE TRY SO DESPERATELY TO BE STRAIGHT AND END UP SO BEAUTIFULLY GAYYYYY

lmaoooo literally can't. it's just too funny!!!

i watched them both (are there really only two?) (nvm i just looked it up myself - yes there are only two)

thaha. holmes constantly trying to sabotage watson's relationship with mary and watson actually giving in to holmes' attempts to keep him company... it is hilarious!

OH aaalso... the first one was made before the bbc show right? it's funny to see the parallels between those!

(bbc did better but honestly nothing will ever be better than bbc sherlock to me...)

(jude law is an amazing watson!!! not entirely convinced of rdj as sherlock holmes. maybe i didn't buy his british accent xD (or maybe i am just too big of a sucker for benny boi xD) (who am i kidding ofc i am too big of a sucker for benefit cumbernoodle))

ANYGAYS!!! i hope youre okay and i am sending you hugs!!!

btw i am sorry for my random rants in your inbox but... i don't know i just love the way you interact with your asks... ask-people? what is that called??? idk but i hope you know what i mean!)

whoop!! reminded me of how much i love sherlock haha (not that i could ever forget i am just in desperate need of a rewatch)

(am i making too many brackets?) (i totally am) (shut up turtely it's getting awkward) OKAYYYY BYYEEE

love you take care youre wonderful and loved and beautiful and perfect just the way you are and I NEED TO STOP AND BRING THIS TO AN END NOW!!!

-🐢

Hey Turtely!!!

OMG I LOVE RDJ Holmes, and it's so BEAUTIFUL. The first one came out in 2009, and Sherlock came out in 2010, so yes, RDJ Holmes was first, and I fell in love with that one first (I got into Sherlock in 20...13? Just before season 3). The two RDJ films are still a couple of my faves, and there's been talks for YEARS for a third one (I know both RDJ and Law want to do it, but I think the problem is all the issues plaguing WB...)

AND OMG the BEST PART?? Law literally shamed a reporter for calling their relationship a bromance; I think they BOTH want the third one to be an explicit queer relationship, but I think the big hurdle is the studio interference and (BEFORE 2023) was the remaining copyrights not having expired. NOW that all the ACD canon is public domain, the big hurdle is the WB.

Anyway, I love them, SO MUCH. I ship them SO hard, and now I think I'm gonna go rewatch the movies because they're SO beautiful. I love them to bits.

Since it's been over a decade since the last one, I would LOVE SH3 to explore them older and together. I think that would be lovely.

I have a lot of fun stuff in my rdj holmes , ritchie holmes , and sherlock holmes 2009 tags you can check out!

And thank you for your kind words. I will try my best to take care of myself <3 My heart is a squishy at the praise LOL

[silentreigns]

Hungarian GP 2023 Post Qualifying Reflection

I was skeptical about this qualifying because this new quali format doesn't sound good to me on paper. But I couldn't have been more wrong. It was funny, exciting, and thrilling because we couldn't predict what would happen next

Alfa Romeo has bounced back and I'm excited to see it! It might be short lived though because Valtteri is being investigated for impeding Lance

I'm happy for Zhou! Topping Q1 and getting his best quali result (ever in f1 I think? Idk). The Alfa Romeo went from being the slowest car on the grid to both cars getting in q3. I don't think we would have gotten that if it wasn't for the new format

I'm sorry but George getting upset and specifically mentioning Pierre's name on the radio was so funny. A lot of the funniest moments this season seem to involve George. Like let's give him his flowers

When Charles knocked Carlos out of q2 my first thought was about the fanwars their fans have on twitter 24/7. For context, some of them have chosen to believe that Carlos is sabotaging Charles at Ferrari for some reason. How are they going to react to this quali? Tumblr is completely tame compared to how they argue over there. It was also very funny when Carlos asked about deleted laps like 😭😭😭.

I was loud and wrong about Max getting pole and I'm glad that I was. I don't think the new RedBull upgrades are giving. And I also read somewhere that this would be RedBull's last major upgrade this season? Ain't it too early to be saying something like that? We got half of a season and all the other teams will be bringing upgrades throughout

Congratulations to Checo for ending that bad quali streak. People are still gonna cook you though because you got p9 in a rocketship 😭. You got out qualified by 2 of the slowest cars on the grid but it's a step in the right direction

I love Lando but I wish he would stop being so hard on himself. Like I know that's what's making him a good driver but girl please be more happier that you got in the top 3 in quali 2 race weekends in a row. You barely made it out of Q1 like please 😭😭😭

LEWIS GOT POLE ON MY BIRTHDAY THIS IS THE BEST PRESENT EVER BECAUSE I LOVE TO SEE MY FAVE SUCCEED

I mean I should have gotten the hint that he would get pole since he topped FP3 on softs. And softs are the mandated tires in Q3. But seeing how Mercedes screwed over George by sending him out in all that traffic, I wasn't too sure

Overall I am interested to see this new quali format be adapted on other circuits. We probably need to see it again a few more times but I loved what I saw today

[thoughtfullyrainynightmare]

Good day knights!

We are here to celebrate a 3 year anniversary of being here. Let us make the very best out of it! Though the anniversary date itself is on August 6th, we welcome you to send in your thoughts and requests as late as August 10th.

However, you know how missions sometimes take away from our ability to complete paper work, and thus the replies might take longer. Nevertheless, we promise to reply to your messages.

We present our most genuine thank you for having us here.

And! And, apologies, didn't mean to barge in like that.

But I would like to remind you that though the last option for this celebration event is one meant to appreciate your under appreciated favourites, they're more than welcomed in other submission types as well! That goes to say that you can send, for example, a headcanon ask about them too. It doesn't need to be only for the third option. However, the so-called fandom favourites submitted for the "unappreciated blorbo" option will, unfortunately, be declined since we don't wish the spotlight to be stolen from those who have had their time in the shadow.

And thank you for having us from me too!

Now! Let's move on to the options, and all regular rules apply during this event as well, as per usual.

Option #1. A oneshot.

"We work hard, and sometimes it's nice to just relax, which is why we ask you to join us for drinks! You may choose if you wish to kick back on your own, or with someone, as well as the type of beverage, the place and a little side order. It's all about treating ourselves a little bit!"

Option #2. Headcanons

"Choose 1 character and up to 3 headcanons per submission. However, there's no limit to submissions per person."

🤔 Are they intro, extro, or ambivert

🌹 Love language

🤫 Unpopular headcanon if any

👀 Interesting AU

🤭 Their silly little secret

😤 Their proudest moment

✨ Secret wish

😔 Secret shame

😆 Funny headcanon

🦄 Free option (any HC you can think of)

Option #3. Under appreciated favourite

"There isn't enough love to some, and we're here to change that with this section of the event. So let's talk about your favorites! What makes them great and interesting! And because sometimes a flaw can give rise to a great success stroy, there are also options to ask about their weaknesses. As said, this is to have a conversation about your fave! What makes them interesting and amazing? You may simply ask for my opinion or send in yours and I'll respond to it. "

🍁What is the most interesting about them?

🍂What is their strength as a person?

🌼What is their strength as a character?

🌻What is their weakness as a person?

🌿What is their weakness as a character?

☘️Thoughts about their magic?

🤝Their friendships? Any thoughts on those?

💎Free option! Ask/request about anything that comes to mind.

-Thoughtfullyrainynightmare 2023

[bohemian-nights]

cry about it 💋

Kudos to you for not using anon to send this 👏🏽Although perhaps I reserve commending you for your bravery when you’ve seemingly created a new tumblr with no posts or likes to send this, but I’ll play ball with those stats.

1. Everyone knows that Dettles is not a popular ship(which makes it all the more hilarious that people continue to harass us). Even Alysmond, which has an abysmally low number of fics, has almost 5x the number of fics than us on Ao3:

2. Dumbnyra, your ship, received a massive, and I do mean massive, surge in popularity thanks to HOTD.

And if you don’t believe me, go to Ao3(since that’s the metric you want to use) and look for fics dated from December 2013(when The Princess and the Queen first came out) to July 2022(right before the show aired in August). When you’ve done that you’ll find a whopping 63 fics written over the course of 8 years(the first fic was written in January 2014):

It was only after the show started to air in August 2022 that you guys actually started shipping it in mass, going ham, and writing a little over 2,200 fics for them over the course of the last five months of that year. It’s because of the show that your ship has reached the top 100 Ao3 ships:

Note that I included 2021 stats as a comparison.

If HOTD had never aired your ship would still have less than 100 fics on Ao3.

3. Which brings me to my last point, even when Dettles happens on the show, Daemon and Nettles will never reach anywhere close to Dumbnyra’s level of popularity.

You’re probably thinking damn right it won’t, but why is she saying this? She’s supposed to disagree with me and look the fool.

Well, you see the ships that are highlighted in purple in the Ao3 ship stats from 2021-2023? Those are all the ships with Black women that have broken the top 100 ships on Ao3. As you can see, ships with Black women let heterosexual Black women(that’s a whole other issue representation matters, but it’s clear y’all are only comfortable with women who aren’t a threat) are not very popular due to the inherent anti-Blackness(in this case misogynoir) of fandoms.

I could link you with several articles on this subject, but I’ll leave you with this one and call it a day cause I’m not educating an uneducated overly grown person. Google is free. If you choose to still be uneducated and ignorant that’s a you problem.

So while Daemon and Nettles will see a surge in popularity when Maidenpool finally happens, we will never reach Dumbnyra, Alysmond, or insert any other white ships, popularity.

That’s not because our ship is inherently inferior or not canon(if you look at those stats canon has nothing to do with anything). It’s because y’all don’t like Black women and you especially don’t like seeing Black women being in relationships with your white male faves. You’ve literally admitted to this one two many times.

Please know that this was a courtesy response. If you send me so much as a single ask like this one again I’m blocking you and reporting you for harassment.

Now you and your cronies can run along now. Go back to crying about, gang stalking, and harassing someone else who ships something that doesn’t even have 1/10 of the popularity of yours…

[kiscon]

CON FAR IS INTENSIFYING!!!

Dear K/S friends,

Greetings from the KiScon office where we are currently going from con farr to plak tow! Only three days to go and then it's time for an intense weekend full of K/S fun!

1. If you are already registered to attend KiScon 2023:

You should have received the Con Book (program booklet with the schedule, all the Zoom links, tons of information, and also the auction catalog) last night by email. If you don't see it in your inbox, please check your spam folder, or make sure you actually checked the email with which you registered for the convention on Conline. If you need to update your contact details that we use to send out all the KiScon info, please let us know; also, if you are not sure whether you are actually registered for KiScon (these things can happen): please get in touch with us so that we can sort this out. The Con Book will also appear on Conline at the start of the convention, but we wanted you to have the pdf file sooner, so that you can familiarise yourself with the online format of the convention. If you have any questions or concerns, please get in touch with us. There is also another opportunity this week for a last-minute tech check or for asking questions in a smaller setting: my fellow con chair StarshipLillian is sitting in our virtual KiScon office and happy to help! Upcoming Office Hours are: Thursday (2 Nov) 12:00–05:00 p.m. EDT. You can find the link in our kiscord. In preparation for the convention, please make sure that your Zoom app is up-to-date, and that your mic and camera are working as they should. Check whether you can log into your Conline account and have a look at your profile there: is your timezone set up correctly? Are you using the correct (fannish) name on Conline? The schedule on Conline is displayed in our main con time = Eastern / New York, but you can click on any of the times and a little box will appear next to it to tell you what time that is in your timezone. If you encounter any problems while trying to log in or edit your profile, please let us know immediately so that we can help you before the start of the actual con weekend. Here’s also a reminder that we have a cosplay competition! You can take part either live during our Zoom session on Saturday, or by posting recent ( = from 2023) pics of your cosplay in our Discord server. See the Con Book for rules and details, please. We also still accept last-minute entries for our cake contest! Should a sudden craving for cake (or any other baked goods) happen today or tomorrow, turn it into art by decorating it in K/S style, snap a photo, and send it to: cakecontest@kiscon.org. The winner will be determined on the last day of the con. 2. If you are not yet registered for KiScon but would like to join us last-minute: Head over to Conline and sign up! We have wonderful panels, fun vid shows, games, a great con zine, an amazing art show, and more. Meet fans who were there when Star Trek first aired on television. Meet fans who have only joined the fandom last year. We are a diverse crowd from all over the globe, and we would love to see you join us. If money is an issue: please apply for a scholarship (write to: larissa@kiscon.org).  3. Last chance to vote for your faves in the Philon Awards 2023: If you have not yet submitted your vote for the Philon Awards, here’s a last call to please do this: You can fill in the voting sheet embedded on the KiScon website, or (if your device does not display it properly) you can find it at this link. Even if you have not managed to read your way through the whole shortlist, vote for those categories that you had the time to enjoy. Voting closes on 1 November, 11:59 p.m. EDT. Jenna and Shelley will present the winners at KiScon. 4. Merch: If you would like to show your love for KiScon and K/S in style… we currently have a limited range of merch available in our Spring store, with mugs, stickers, and T-shirts (in various styles). The logo was designed by Page of Wands for KiScon. Proceeds go towards our projects and the upkeep of the KiScon website. More merch might get added later, but it's a start. (And I needed a stylish mug to feed my con-induced caffeine needs.)5. Where to find KiScon information & announcements:

Official website KiScon Discord server Tumblr blog Twitter Conline Facebook Group Dreamwidth Bluesky YouTube

[the-conversation-pod]

Summer 2023 Lagniappe

We made it to the end of the season, folks! Time for all of the extra discussions that just didn't fit into the structure of the season. Nini and Ben are both from the Caribbean and share the word "lagniappe" which means "a little extra" (kinda like a baker's dozen).

This time we've got quite a few things to discuss, and we also have our first guest! Ben's best friend David joins us for the Season Wrap-Up conversation.

We're going to answer some questions from @ctl-yuejie and @mynameisnotthepoint.

Nini caught up on My Only 12 Percent, Roommates of Poongduck 304, and She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat.

We unpack the eldritch horror that was The Shipper. We will not be discussing it ever again.

We discuss the execution of polyamory in Me, My Husband, and My Husband's Boyfriend.

We then hang out with David and discuss genre history, favorite actors, flops-and-trends, and award our Girl, You Tried award for this season.

Finally, we look ahead to the fall!

Listen on Apple Podcasts!

Listen on Google Podcasts!

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

0:00 - Welcome 1:15 - Intro 3:14 - Talk Nice to Us 3:36 - How Did We Get into QL, and How Has the Podcast Changed Us? 9:10 - How Does Criticism and Commentary Change Your Viewing Experience? 13:11 - Catch Up Corner 13:59 - My Only 12 Percent 22:52 - Roommates of Poongduck 304 26:14 - She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat 30:09 - The Shipper 59:46 - Next Watches 1:02:33 - Me, My Husband, and My Husband’s Boyfriend 1:15:53 - Spring Roundup 1:16:40 - David Introduction and BL Background 1:18:50 - David’s History with Queer Cinema 1:20:59 - David’s Favorite BL Actors 1:23:24 - David’s Thoughts on the Spring Shows 1:26:15 - Somewhat Forgettable Shows 1:29:25 - Favorite Actor Pairs 1:36:49 - The Changing Nature of BLs 1:39:34 - Girl, You Tried 1:46:56 - Looking Ahead 1:57:44 - Outro

The Conversation: Now With Transcripts!

We received an accessibility request to include transcripts for the podcast. We are working with @ginnymoonbeam on providing the transcripts and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes. When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

0:00 - Welcome

Nini

Hello, hello! Your QL fandom aunty and uncle are here with giant sunglasses, brown liquor in a flask, a folded five-dollar bill to slip into your hand when no one is looking, lukewarm takes, occasional rides on the discourse, deep dives into artistry and the industry.

Ben

Lots of simping! I’m Ben.

Nini

I’m Nini.

Ben

And this is The Conversation. About once a season, we plan to swan in and shoot the shit on faves, flops, and trends that we’ve been noticing in the BL, GL, or QL Industry. Between seasons, you can find us typing way too many words on Tumblr.

1:15 - Intro

David

Hey, guys. My name is Dave. I'm your new favorite BL B-Asterisk-T-C-H and I'm here to introduce Nini and Ben—who don't really need any introduction, but I'm an extra bitch. So that's why I'm here. They're giving out awards. There's shadin’ shows. They're uplifting some shows, but mostly shade. So, welcome, tune in, have fun, and I'll see you guys in the episode. It's gonna be a lot of me, so be prepared, like, it's a lot. 

Bye, guys!

Nini

We have our first guest on the show—not for the last time, because we had so much fun with David. David's going to be back. 

Ben, what are we talking about? This is the lagniappe.

Ben

So, the lagniappe, as always, is going to be the bits that just didn't fit into the format of the other episodes thematically or in a way that we thought was necessarily interesting. So, we also figured out that Spotify has a question and answer tool and a commenting section, so please use it. We're having a lot of fun with it. 

We're going to answer some questions from some friends of ours—one old, one new. We're going to talk about Nini catching up when She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat, Roommates of Poongduck 304, as well as My Only 12 Percent. Nini and I are going to stare into the abyss and scream about the eldritch horror that was The Shipper. We're gonna promise you all some things for the future. We're gonna talk about a very complicated show in Me, My Husband, and My Husband's Boyfriend. And then finally, with David’s very specific presence here, we're going to unpack the entire spring season and generally qiqi for a bit.

Nini

It's delightful. Y'all are going to have a lot of fun see see you in the episode.

3:14 - Talk Nice to Us

Ben

On to the Talk Nice to Us section! Some of you lovely listeners—we still have not figured out what we wanna call you; please chime in and let us know—has sent us a couple of questions, one from an old friend of mine on Tumblr, and one from a new friend of the show. 

Nini, please take us into the questions.

3:36 - How Did We Get into QL, and How Has the Podcast Changed Us?

Nini

Ok, so the first question is from @ctl-yuejie, and they write, “I am curious how and why you two started watching QL, what your first impressions were, and how they might have changed over time and after starting a podcast about it?” 

So, Ben, how would you answer that question?

Ben

As a known homosexual and amateur cinenophile, [Nini laughs] I was bored and stressed with the Western Queer Cinema when I discovered BL. SOTUS comes out in…2016. I was desperate for a fresh infusion of queer cinema. There was a huge dearth of content happening in the 2010s. 

I really like queer stories, and I really like queer people getting to have fun and have a good time, and one of the things that stood out about SOTUS that felt fresh at the time was how forthright Kongpob was. I also liked that it was giving a commentary on its own society at the time, and I was basically hooked on QL from that point on. 

One, there was just a whole lot more of it—even with the small amount of content we had in 2016, 2017, 2018—there was more time spent with those shows than like all of the queer movies I watched in that year from the West. 

That's why I'm here, and then I met Nini, and she was like, “I want to talk about the shows and I want to do a podcast.” And I was like, “Well let's not think about it. Let's just do it.” 

Now we're here. What about you?

Nini

We talked about some of this stuff in our very first intro episode. I have been around fandom for a really long time. I have been familiar with the concept of BL. Sometime around the end of 2020 or beginning of 2021, some edit of I Told Sunset About You showed up on my YouTube, and I was desperate to find it. Back then it wasn't easily findable. And so, in trying to find it, I cycled through Life: Senjou no Bokura, Gaya Sa Pelikula, and Where Your Eyes Linger before I found I Told Sunset About You finally. 

So I got here at the beginning of 2021, and I just started devouring what I could find. And then, yeah, met Ben on the Tumblrs, and I said to Ben, “Hey, Ben, you write nice about things. I want to do a podcast because I want to do deep dives into some of this stuff.” And Ben said “Bet” and here we are. 

In terms of how my impressions of QL have changed over time and after starting this podcast, I am…familiar with the rhythms of some of this media now, and so things that probably would have irked me at the beginning don't irk me anymore or I enjoy them. I think I watch the shows differently now. When I'm watching I'm always thinking about, “Oh, I wonder what Ben's gonna say about this?” Which is fun! ‘Cause usually I am spot on.

How about you, Ben? How have your thoughts about BL, QL, GL, and fandom changed since starting the podcast?

Ben

One of the useful bits about the podcast versus say…blogging and essay writing is…the conversation itself forces me to think differently about the shows. Like I don't come into the podcast recordings with a bunch of, like, scripts written out for what I want to talk about. I sometimes give us questions to focus on that I think will get us into the meat of what that particular project was trying to dig into. But it's talking with each other and then it's the discussions with other people that really elevate the entire experience for me. 

I think what I've enjoyed the most about the podcast is…I feel like the shows are not one and done anymore. I feel like I'm exiting the very sort of masculine style of fandom engagement—which is mostly watching, memorizing, cataloging—and I'm very much enjoying the transformative part…of fandom where we talk about the shows, unpack them. I find myself being significantly more engaged than I was previously, and it makes me a little more picky about what I watch. 

Like, if I know I'm not going to talk about the show with you I'm far more likely to just dismiss the show.

Nini

It's true. There are some times where just like, “Ugh, God. I mean, if Ben's gonna watch this I guess I'm gonna have to watch it, too.” Doing the show has been really great from that regard in that I have watched things that I would have originally dismissed because of Ben— sometimes I don't love them. But most of the time when Ben says “you should watch this” I find it really worthy. 

9:10 - How Does Criticism and Commentary Change Your Viewing Experience?

@mynameisnotthepoint writes, ”How is your balance with consuming a piece of media and consuming the meta around it? Have you had it happen that the meta around it—reading up on things—completely changed your mind on a series?” 

Ben, has reading meta ever changed your mind about something that you watched?

Ben

The simple answer is yes; the complex answer is no. 

None of us are immune to receiving new inputs from other people, and people read things differently from me. I do find value in other people's perspectives. I like understanding where people are writing from. But it's very rare that somebody saw something in a show that was so groundbreaking that I also didn't see it in the first place. The big beats of the story are rarely something that I missed while participating along the way. We're all pretty smart, and the shows are rarely trying to trick us. So, it's very rare that, like, somebody's like, “Aha! It was the butler in the kitchen with the candlestick!” and I'm like, “How did you predict that?”

Nini

How I prefer to engage with the meta doesn't lead a lot of the time to me changing my mind about a show, but it has happened that I have been…persuaded not out of my particular read but more into seeing another read as valid. In my head I can hold two ideas, so I can be like, “Well this thing, I read it this way. This person read it that way.” I think both of those things can be happening at the same time. I don't feel like my read is exclusive to every other read. 

It's fun to talk to people about these things. I'm with Ben. A lot of the enjoyment in these shows other than watching some of the shows themselves—not all—is in talking to people about the shows and finding out what where their perspectives are coming from and seeing where our perspectives intersect, and where they might run parallel, and where they might conflict, but then how that conflict may not be a conflict at all. It's the twisty intellectual side of things that I really enjoy, and then also just the emotional side—having those conversations, getting to know people through their experience of media and my experience of media. I find that incredibly fun and rewarding. It's one of the reasons that I do the podcast with Ben. 

For me, the answer is yes sometimes my mind is changed by meta, but more often than not my thinking is expanded—not changed—by taking in meta.

Ben

Expand is a good way to describe it. I do think most shows that are good benefit from really invested people with the ability to communicate their thoughts sharing them determinedly week in week out. I'm a big fan of meta, basically. 

Keep writing! If you listen to us, keep writing!

We don't get to make friends with people if you guys are just lurking! Please write! Write on tumblr. Write on your blogs. Write to us. Whatever you do, just keep writing! We want to hear what you're thinking about the shows.

13:11 - Catch Up Corner

Nini

This is the Spring Catch Up Corner. We've got a doozy of one for you guys to round out the end of this but we're going to start with a few things that I caught up on in the spring mostly because Ben would not shut up about them.

Ben

[laughs] It's true though!

Nini

So in the spring I watched She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat (in Japanese: Tsukuritai Onna to Tabetai Onna), then Roommates of Poongduck 304, and My Only 12 Percent. Since Ben is breaking up with New this season I'm going to start with My Only 12 Percent.

13:59 - My Only 12 Percent

Ben

Okay I thought we were going to have fun first with, like, She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat. It's like directly into My Only 12 Percent! “And another thing! Smack!”

Nini

We always go from worst to first, but we're ending this particular catchup with the worst because of what it is. 

Ben

Man…[sighs]

Nini

I'm just gonna go with My Only 12 Percent. We don't I think need to do like the reminder to everybody about what My Only 12 Percent is because we've talked about it in the VIIB Awards. You all should go back and listen to that episode—I'm not exactly sure which episode it is but I will probably put it in the show description. 

So. I looked at it I watched it…[Nini sighs, Ben laughs]…and—okay, I'm gonna be real real with you, okay?

Ben

Okay.

Nini

I cannot say that I liked My Only 12 Percent. But I also cannot say that I disliked My Only 12 Percent.

There were moments, there were moments to My Only 12 Percent that I did like, but, like, the first two-thirds of the show I just found incredibly frustrating. I am not really a Cooheart fan as an actor. Actually, let me take that back.

Ben

Yeah, that's right, you better correct yourself.

Nini

I think Cooheart is talented. I would like to see him work with somebody else, because he has only worked with New, and I think he and New bring out the worst in each other in the director-actor relationship. I think that occasionally they reach certain heights but I think that working together, they lean into some old techniques, they lean on things that they're accustomed to doing with each other and it doesn't work for me. 

One of the things I would like to see Cooheart do is play older and New always has him play younger, and in this particularly he plays really young. And it's the effect of it is unsettling for me even when they age him up a little bit. I can’t slide away from the acting he was doing earlier in the show when he was playing like 15-16 and it's just it's hard for me to recalibrate once they age him up. 

The things I do like about the show. I like how Cake and Eiw were just—they were just like that the whole time from like the day they were born, I guess. Like, the first day that they were ever put in a crib together they were just like that. I mean everybody else more or less knew what it was and how they felt about each other, but nobody forced them to figure it out or forced them to explain it or anything like that. They just let them figure it out for themselves. I liked the realization part of things. I did like that scene where Eiw is watching Love of Siam—which is something else that I have to put on my catch up list—and you see the moment when he understands something about himself. I, too, I'm a person who has light bulb moments watching media. 

So, I am a fan of characters who work things out by having, like, a media moment. I like that the two of them were just always connected and they figured out for themselves how they felt. I liked the fight that they had in episode 12 when everything sort of comes to a head because Eiw knows how he feels. Cake knows how he feels, but neither of them is really talking to each other about it. They're just trying to fall back into their old patterns without laying on the table what the feelings are. And, of course, it becomes an issue and they have a fight about it because Cake is jealous. This is the kind of jealousy I like, where things are unsettled and one character is like I cannot hold in anymore how I feel. I am upset about this thing that you're doing, or this person that you're talking to, and the reason for that is because I feel this way about you. And the other character is like, “Well, fucking finally!” 

So I did like their fight. I thought that Cooheart was very good in their fight. I liked Santa and his connection with him in the fight. I always like to see a good fight between the two main characters when something has been building up for a while. It was really good. 

One of the other scenes that was really good was their first time scene. The way that it happened was very gentle. It was very matter of fact, almost. It wasn't like a big planned romantic thing. It just kind of happened because they were just there and vibing. I like that. But this show felt like New [Ben laughs] and not in the good way. 

Ben

There It is.

Nini

It felt like classic New Siwaj! It felt like New Siwaj doing Make It Right. It felt like New Siwaj in the parts of Until We Meet Again that piss me off. 

There's, like, a lot of minutiae. Stuff that's happening around the characters that's not really important to the narrative or the character building. It's just a bunch of stuff that's happening and he just insists on showing it in detail. There's way too many side characters. They drag out the main story, like it takes 12 episodes—12 of 14 episodes—for Cake and Eiw to get to the point where they can even have the conversation. And then there's, like, some weird blushing maiden shit which I never like. 

And then the thing that New always does which is that the last minute brings out some left field bullshit out of nowhere, that has absolutely no relation to anything else, and just kind of stops sorry dead in his tracks. In this instance, it's Eiw’s mom is dying randomly all of a sudden because their dad used to smoke when he lived with them. Their dad hasn't lived with them for like—what over a decade? So their mom has third hand smoke cancer. It's just out of nowhere. I can't understand why it's there. 

So basically I didn't dislike it but I didn't like the show either. If I had to give it a score I would probably give it…a 6. It's okay. 

Ben

Harsh. [laughs]

Nini

It's New Siwaj on his New Siwaj bullshit. That's gonna be a 6 for me.

Ben

Well, I'm glad you at least humored me and watched it. I feel differently now that New has irritated me twice in the last couple of months, first with Double Savage and then with A Boss and a Babe. That being said, I hope that someday he earns the moments he really wants to hit, because what he's trying to do is actually really interesting. Two best friends who've been in love with each other in one way shape or form their entire lives, and it takes them over 20 years to find an alignment that works for them. I'm into that.

Nini

Listen, New gon’ New, and I don't have to put up with it anymore. 

Ben

That's honestly one of the most unexpected takeaways of this whole season for us was realizing that I don't think I like New Siwaj anymore.

I'm not mad at him. I just feel a little bit sad, because he reminds me of a lot of guys who I knew when I was in college who mean really well. They just don't really know people or how to interact with them. That's how a lot of New’s stuff feels, particularly his whole thing with revealing context after someone has really fucked up something. Because that's how he gets things. Like he fucks up something, and likely somebody yelled at him and explained it to him, and he was like “oh damn,” and then he wrote it down in this journal, and then he turned it into one of his scenes in his shows.

Nini

I think we've talked enough about New Siwaj. We talked about New Siwaj literally the entire season. I am over him. Let's move on.

Ben

Very well.

22:52 - Roommates of Poongduck 304

Nini

The second thing that I watched—and this one I actually quite liked—I watched Roommates of Poongduck 304. 

This was actually pretty good. It was a solid little workplace drama out of Korea. I quite liked the way that they balanced out the boss and employee relationship by having them flip it at home and be landlord and renter. I always like when these boss-subordinate relationships have some kind of other power dynamic going on next to it. 

I really liked the characters. I thought they were fun. Watching Holland play like…[laughs]… a scamming-ass, down-dirty—like, he's supposed to be his friend but he's just stealing from him—let's just be real. It was delightful in certain ways but it was also heartbreaking because watching Jae Yoon get scammed and taken advantage of by not just Holland—who I can't remember the character's name even though I liked the show—but watching him get scammed by all his friends. It was just really hard. I kind of was like, “Aw, baby…You need to be more careful about who you let into your life.” 

But, yeah, I enjoyed this. I really enjoyed this. I thought that the work stuff was really integrated well into the romantic story and vice versa. For essentially a rom-com setup, it was quite realistic and quite fun. Yeah! I had a good time with this.

Ben

I really liked this show a lot, and I feel like…this show is underrated. I agree with you. I think this is one of the rare K-BLs that understands how much time they have exactly and what they want to do with that time. I think they balance the relationships in a way that makes it fun, and it's not just one person getting picked on by the other the whole time. 

And, like, the only thing that really I don't like in this show—is the same thing I usually don't like with the Korean stuff—is the way they handle alcohol in the shows that usually makes me uncomfortable. Seo Jae Yoon, I don't like the way he drinks. But, given the friends he has, I guess I'll let him have it.

Nini

Hoo! Listen, his friends are trash, throw the friends away, throw all the friends away. My God! The other friend who is basically like in an MLM and keeps making him buy shit...

Ben

Now that was gross.

Nini

What was the name that he had for him on his phone?

Ben

I don't know, but I remember being, like, really embarrassed about it. Like, it was basically like “fool” or…

Nini

Yeah, it was something like that. It was really mean. It was basically something that implied like he was just somebody that this guy was taking advantage of.

Ben

Like it basically felt like he called him “chump” and put him in his phone as that.

Nini

Yeah…and it was ugly but it was part of a character arc for Jae Yoon as well to understand that he deserved better than these friends who would use him like this, and I did like that. It's a solid little show, very enjoyable. I would recommend it to people. I liked it.

26:14 - She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat

So, today of all the days, the day we're recording, we got the news that there is going to be a second season of this: She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat.

Ben

I'm so fucking relieved. [Nini laughs] I really am! I will let you talk first but my goodness am I relieved that we're getting a season 2. [Ben laughs]

Nini

So, back in the VIIB Awards when we're talking about the GLs of the year, Ben laid this one out as one of the ones that he really enjoyed. He called it the lesbian What Did You Eat Yesterday? and being a great fan of What Did You Eat Yesterday? I was like, “Okay, bet. I will definitely watch this at some point.” 

So I found myself with some time, and I cracked open the old computer machine, and I decided I'm gonna watch She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat, and—oh my god—how lovely. It's so lovely. I love the show! I love it so much! Watching this gentle…kind of slow gravitation between Nomoto and Kasuga. I smile the entire time. It was so lovely. ‘Lovely’ is the word that just comes to mind when I think about it. 

And then Kasuga talking about how she has never felt accepted, or never felt understood…Nomoto starting to understand in herself how she's always felt separate from everybody. And then Nomoto watching Kasuga eat at every day basically, and those sessions them having dinner becoming more and more sexual…The look on Nomoto's face when she watches Kasuga eat becoming more and more mouth open kind of “this is hot” kind of thing. 

And her not even realizing that that's what's happening to her: that she is becoming sexually attracted to Kasuga, and particularly to watching Kasuga eat. 

Oh, God, love it. Love it. Love it. Love it. And then, as the show goes on, she starts to acknowledge and accept the fact that she's attracted to Kasuga—that she's sexually attracted to Kasuga. At the point in time that the story ends in season 1—now I can say that: in season 1—I remember thinking, “Oh my god! It's not finished! I need so much more of this—” 

Ben

And that's why I'm so fucking relieved.

Nini

It ends when they're really starting to adjust their relationship from friends to a romantic relationship. 

So, we are getting a second season of this of 20 episodes next year in 2024, and I personally cannot wait. I love that all the Japanese shit that I really glommed onto in the last few months are all getting sequels. 

So, there was the Utsukushii Kare sequel first, then we found out earlier that we're getting a second season of What Did You Eat Yesterday? and now She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat. 

I am very glad that I took your recommendation on two-thirds of this list. [laughs]

Ben

Shade. [laughs]

Nini

On all of it. There was stuff to hold on to in My Only 12 Percent. The totality of it just wasn't for me. So I'm glad that I watched all three of these, but of the three, my absolute favorite thing that you recommended that I watch is She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat.

30:09 - The Shipper

Nini

We've talked about the lovely fun things and now it's time to descend into hell. 

Ben

Last time we left you all, Nini and I decided that we would watch The Shipper from 2020 and report back to you all, because we liked a lot of the folks involved and thought it would be really interesting to give a show that we knew had had some complicated responses when it first aired a genuine watch. Well, we've had the opportunity to watch it, and we just finished it, and we have a lot to say. 

So, before we get into our immediate reactions, the simple breakdown of The Shipper is that it is a high school setting show in which two girls who’re writing sexy fic about two older boys at their school that they love and ship. This eventually leads to some kerfuffles in their school. Our protagonist, Pan, ends up riding with one of the boys home one night. They get into a car crash, killing both of them. In the afterlife, they meet the god of death—who is played by Jennie Panhan. They sass Jennie a bit, she mushes their faces, and sends them back to Earth, but accidentally switches their bodies, and then Pan has to live as Kim—the boy that she's been viewing as part of her ship for a long time clearly—for some time, where she realized she doesn't exactly know him that well, and then starts to reevaluate how she's always perceived him. 

A lot of other things happen. There are some ideas that are half-baked in this, and it's very clear that the show was fighting a thematic war within the writers room itself. And quite frankly, it left me and Nini both dissatisfied and deeply disturbed to put it mildly. 

Before I hand it over to Nini, I just want to say real quick, this is the first time in MDL history that I think I'll be giving a show a 1. 

So, Nini, we just finished The Shipper. How are you feeling?

Nini

I'm going to let MDL user jarabaa speak for me, and I quote: “I found the series so intensely disagreeable that my feelings of shock and unease will probably stay with me a long time whenever I think of The Shipper.” End quote. I think that says it all.

Ben

‘Disagreeable’ is really such an accurate term.

Nini

This just reiterates to me that sometimes when we both have a gut feeling about something, we should trust that, because we both had a gut feeling that we would not like this show, which is why we never watched it. And now, having watched it, I think we were both correct.

Ben

I feel so validated in my decision in 2020. I took one look at that show and I said ‘hell to the no’ and I wish we hadn't been curious in going back.

Nini

They say, “Curiosity killed the cat?” Well, I feel like a dead kitty right now because…What? Was? That? [sighs] 

Okay, I'm going to try—I'm going to try to actually formulate some sentences that are descriptive and helpful in order to lay out why I never want to think about this show again after we finish recording this.

Ben

Getting into some specifics about what may have happened along the way here: There were some interesting ideas presented early in the show that the people who ship people don't really know the people involved; that they have a false notion of them based upon surface details and the fictional things they've created about them. There's an interesting idea in this, particularly as it pertains to shipping real people who exist with each other as opposed to say fictional characters.

Early on the show really says something special with Pan realizing she didn't actually know who Kim was when she was forced to live as him, because she thought she knew who he was, and I made the joke when we were watching, like, the first episode, like, that, “You know, he's just a hole to her,” [Nini chuckles]...I didn't realize that that's what the theme of the show was going to be…

Like, spoilers for the end of The Shipper, only one of them survives Jennie mushing them in the face. First is apparently too weak. Prigkhing is so much stronger. And so Prigkhing gets to live as First’s character for a while. Eventually one of their bodies has to go and they make the decision for Pan to keep her body and for Kim (First’s character) to die. 

How we get there is a huge mess and by the time it finished the show read extremely homophobic and lesbophobic to Nini and myself.

Nini

Oh, throw in transphobic.

Ben

And transphobic. I'll let you take on that portion. 

For me, one of the things that was kind of interesting introduced along the way was that they were shipping two boys together because maybe they picked up on the homosocial tension between them, and what we learn along the way is that these boys actually did have a homoromantic relationship brewing between them. But it was nothing like anything that these girls had really imagined. I don't think I'd give much thought to the depths of the feelings between these two boys. And what we end up learning about the actual relationship between Kim and Way, the two boys that they’re shipping, played by First Kanaphan and Fluke Pusit respectively, ends up being fairly compelling, and I was deeply invested in what they might have done with those boys’ dynamic, particularly if we'd have gotten a see who Kim actually was.

But what ends up happening along the way that ends up frustrating me is critical moments that should have belonged to two gay boys…never get to happen for them…and what happens because the the narrative chooses to have the Kim character be dead the whole time, it makes all of Way’s expressed feelings for Kim, particularly after the accident, all feel super unrequited. 

I'm not opposed to exploring queer grief, but I don't like the way it's done here. It feels cheap. 

I'm gonna let Nini get into the specifics of this, because she said it multiple times when we were watching this: “this show wants to have its cake and eat it too.” It wants to give a stern lesson about how deeply out of touch shipping is, but also feeding shipping the whole time? And ends up…kind of damning itself along the way because we never actually really meet Kim…and he's dead at the end…and so all he is is what everyone else has projected onto him.

Nini

This show, for like maybe 6 or 7 episodes, tiptoes up to several points. It almost makes a series of points as Ben mentioned about shipping, about the experience of fandom, about who we think fans are and who they might actually be. It almost makes a point about how many queer women are in fandom and women discovering their queerness through fandom. It almost makes a point about about transgender people and the idea that the way that we present to the world maybe not being who we are inside. It tiptoes up to all of these points, and in the end touches none of them. The front half of this is intensely frustrating, and then the back half is just actively offensive. It just— I can't even— [laughs] Actively offensive!

The shift happens when we realize that there is this weird, ugly fake relationship—that is fake on one side but very real on the other—happening between Kim and one of the teachers. That's when this show really started going off the rails for me—the whole thing with Kim and the teacher is when I started feeling deeply uncomfortable. I started feeling gross. I didn't understand why this is the way that the show was going, what they were trying to say with this storyline. I still don't know at the end of the show what they're trying to say with that storyline other than I guess they're trying to tell you that the actual Kim was not a good person. But then why have him be essentially the victim of a predator?

Ben

It's really hard for us to give you guys the necessary context for some of these things. The simple overview is when Pan accidentally finds herself in Kim's body, she learns along the way that instead of being like the star academic student, he's actually an academic cheater, that he's involved in a secret relationship with one of the stern teachers, and he uses that relationship to get answers to the tests. This upsets Pan because her image of Kim as a star student and badass is ruined. 

Eventually, she learns that the reason why Kim was manipulating this teacher and involved in this relationship with her to get these tests was because he was helping Way study so that Way could get out of an abusive situation in his house with his dad by succeeding at school properly, because Way gets into fights too much. We don't really return to the whole thing there because all we get is…a teacher with very…juvenile-centric kinks projecting them on to a star student. It just left both of us, when we watched it, feeling super weird about it.

And it doesn't really go anywhere. They're just like—at the end she's like moved on to an age-appropriate man now, I guess? Like, good for her? I guess Kim's death was the necessary catalyst for her to stop trying to hook up with one of her students.

Nini

It's so gross and it's the pivot after which most of what happens feels gross to me, and there are a hundred different things that they're trying to do—none of them lands. It feels like the show wants to have its cake and eat it, too, in a lot of ways. 

I haven't even started to get into what they did with the character of Soda. Soda is Pan's best friend who she writes the fic with, who is her ride-or-die. The implication of the show is that Soda and Pan are kind of in love with each other, particularly that Soda is in love with Pan. But that again goes nowhere—in the end, they randomly put both Pan and Soda with boys?

Ben

A lot of things just don't make any damn sense in this show. It's frustrating because the show comes close constantly to a good point like it almost makes the point that shippers know nothing about the people that they're shipping…but then it never really gives us like an interior understanding of who Kim actually was. We only know him through what everybody else is getting out of knowing him. That's almost an interesting point but the big problem I feel with the show is that I feel like this show is the most intellectually disturbing and manipulative show that we've ever experienced. I don't think the show ever really lands on a real feeling it wants to go for and so you're kind of left floundering. 

I really…don't…like this particular project, and it's really frustrating because there's a lot of people I really liked in it. Individual pieces of the show on their own could be some really cool moments. Like I think Fluke plays a kind of himbo-badass-type-jock character really well. Like he plays Way super well as a guy who is not the greatest at school, doesn't really have like a refined understanding of human connection; but knows who's important to him, and knows who he wants to be with, and knows not to mislead other people along the way. 

And it's really frustrating to see a gay character like Way be constantly emotionally abused by this narrative. The frustration that arises from me as I watch this, particularly whereas it pertains to Way, is he already knows that he has feelings for Kim, and over the course of interacting with Pan, because Pan in some ways softens Kim because she's less standoffish than he is, Way decides to confess his feelings to Kim. And this pissed me off in episode 9 because I've been a gay boy confessing from the closet to someone before. It is the most terrifying thing that has ever happened to me in my life, and I was so disgusted with this show because they gave one of the most intense things that you can do as a gay man with another boy to a fucking shipper who never really respected who they were as people. 

I hate that with all of the fires that burn in my soul, and it never really gets better from there.

Nini

Let me give you an example of a direction that the show was going in that it then undercut. 

So, one of the actual good story arcs in the show. At the beginning of the show, Way is in a relationship with View’s character Pingping. Pingping is the school's queen bee and she is out here like putting out this…general idea that she and Way are in this hot and heavy thing. Meanwhile, Way has never really touched her. They spend all their time together staring at their phones and occasionally talking to each other. You can see where there is some affection there between them but Way quickly—I guess for the narrative—realizes how he feels about Kim, and he's very open immediately about talking to Pingping about it and being like, “Look, I am in love with somebody else.” And the way that Pingping handles that is also very real. She doesn't want to hear it. She avoids it. There's a lot of interesting stuff there. All that's great. 

And then, they undercut it by having Pingping, like, put a hit out on Kim. It's insane.

Ben

That is actually what happens. Like, the most frustrating thing to talk about with this show is that everything we're describing happened as we're describing it. The problem with The Shipper is while it's very easy to talk about the actions that transpired over the show and the expressed-by-the-character reason for why they're doing what they're doing, the thematic implications of everything they're doing is actually incredibly disturbing. 

Like, one of the big things we talk about in fandom sometimes is that projecting homosexuality onto boys is the way a lot of girls figure out their own queerness with themselves, and the show walks right up to this line by highlighting the romantic potential between Pan and her friend Soda, who spend way too much of their free time and their class time writing sexy fic about two boys like a year or two older than them, and then throws that idea away as if it were preposterous. 

That is…so offensive, and it's weird in a show that features young gay love in it about girls who are obsessed with young gay love to do something that felt Incredibly homophobic—in this case, specifically lesbophobic.

Nini

The show in general feels homophobic and lesbophobic because in the end, the only romantic relationship that actually gets to happen is the one between Pan and Khet, who is Kim's brother. So of everything else, basically Way falls in love with Kim and Kim dies, they tease Pan and Soda but it doesn't happen and they both end up with boys. It feels like it wanted to be clever and out-clevered itself, so to speak, to the point that it just got real stupid.

Ben

You look at The Shipper and you can see the points that it's hinting at but it's almost like it's afraid to make the point because they're worried that the audience that they're hoping funds this project doesn't turn on them by realizing that they're being maybe chided for how they behave, and it ends up becoming a show fundamentally about nothing, that ends on an insane level of queer trauma that it somehow writes off as useful because it helped a straight girl figure out that she should maybe fuck her best friend who's hung around her writing sexy fic about his brother, but she didn't know it was his brother for the last year or two? But also she's now projecting her intense shipping desires onto Gun and Off who randomly show up in the final six minutes? 

…I deserved better than this.

Nini

Let's just talk about the absolute—I mean, it sounds so weird to say that this is the absolute wildest moment of the show. I mean, if we went through all the wild moments of the show it's probably not the absolute wildest, but it's the one that felt probably the wildest and most offensive in the end and that was The Kiss. 

Ben

Fuck. Here we go.

Nini

At the end, Pan is now trying to get back into her body after a series of UNO reverses in the last two episodes that just were exhausting and upsetting. Now Pan is trying to get back into her body before it dies, and the way that she gets back into her body is supposed to be a true love kiss. Pan is still in First’s body at this point in time, and then they decide that the true love must be Kim's brother Khet. 

It's two boys kissing but it's somehow still homophobic! [laughs] It's so—oh my God. 

So, Pan's got to have a true love's kiss. So, Pan calls Soda while she's running to tell Khet that if he likes her he should come and kiss her in the form of his brother's body—which he does! I'm telling you, guys…what I'm saying is exactly what happened.

Ben

I just hate the show for having Ohm and First kiss, having it be one of the weakest kisses either of these boys has ever given, and then immediately cutting to a funeral afterwards. Because First’s character died.

Nini

Technically, First’s character died at the beginning of the show, and we only get to dealing with that at the end of the show. And in between, we just get a bunch of stuff…

I mean we haven't even got into the family drama, because aside from everything else that's happening, Kim and Khet live alone while their parents are in another country, and it seems like Kim and Khet kind of hate each other. And so there's a whole family drama happening with Pan in Kim's body where Khet is coming to peace of some kind with his relationship with his brother and then has to also deal with the fact that actually his brother is dead, and then has to shepherd his parents through that. So there's that. 

And then we randomly find out somewhere in the middle of the show that Pan is actually growing up being raised by her stepfather because her mom died? And her stepfather is constantly being encouraged by the people around him to ditch her because he doesn't have any responsibility to her, but she thinks of him as her dad.

Again all, on paper, compelling stuff. But the way that it's dealt with in the show, it just, it all feels like a bridge too far. 

Ben

The show wants you to think about a lot of really interesting ideas and such, but it doesn't want to come forward and say them itself. Like it's always tiptoeing up to something and then peeking in the room, and then walking away from it. It's one of the most frustrating experiences I've had as a viewer in a really long time. The show feels intellectually dishonest.

Nini

That's probably the best way to describe it. This show has roughly 800 convictions and the courage of none of them. It feels so dishonest intellectually. It feels…offensive. It feels…rude.

Ben

I was so angry at the end of episode 9 in a way I have not felt since the final episodes of HIStory3: Make Our Days Count. I don't like moments that should be joyous for queer people being snatched from them to make some sort of cute point in a narrative to seem somehow better than the audience? And it really really pissed me off. 

In this particular instance, it's when Way confesses his feelings to Kim and Pan goes into what she knows is going to be a confession believing this is somehow for her—which is deluded. And then she gets upset during the confession that the confession to the boy whose body she's in is being given to the boy whose body she's in and not to her, the shipper, after earlier chiding the girl she should be developing a lesbian romance with for deciding to project that onto the boy whose body she's in because she misunderstands their dynamic as Kim actually flirting with her. And I was enraged by this show taking a gay moment from a gay boy, and then also running away from a lesbian moment and having the character just be completely out of touch about it—which I guess is maybe the point about shippers, but not the point the show really wants to land on. 

And its final messaging in the last like ten-odd minutes is so deeply disturbing that I have not recovered. So, as we've described here today, Kim and Way are the boys that these girls were projecting all the shipping nonsense onto. We learned that these boys are actually involved in a fairly interesting and complicated gay love story that I actually think would have made for a really compelling story on its own—but I digress—and then…Kim is dead. And so we have to process that particular fact, and these girls believe that the best way they can honor the two boys who they never understood is to keep writing deluded fic about them! And I have not been this disgusted in a really long time.

Nini

And it's presented as valedictory somehow.

Ben

Right? Like they have Way cry, like, weird tears of thanks—I don't know what the hell happened here, and maybe because we can reflect on this now three—three to four years later—maybe this is why they put Aof in charge of all the queer shit after this because this…was a bridge way too fucking far.

Nini

At one point toward the end of our watch I remember just saying out loud “I fucking hate this” to Ben, and I think I kept that mantra up—varying versions of “I fucking hate this” and “I'm so pissed” for probably the last entire episode and a half of this show. 

Before that we were making jokes about psychic damage and eldritch horror. More and more jokes as the show went on, because we were absolutely taking psychic damage watching the show. The show was an eldritch horror. I just did not realize how much of an eldritch fucking horror that it was. 

Gah, listen. It's over. We've learned our lesson. We're never doing something like this again.

Ben

We have no promises to you all about other things we want to catch up on right now, because goddamn do we need a break. If we skipped it, we were correct! And we will not be second guessing ourselves ever again!

Nini

I think that's going to be the rule: if there is something that we both skipped it was for a reason and we should never watch it. Like it's one thing for us to, like, individually like something and recommend it to each other, but I think if there's something that we both skipped, I think that's the new catch up rule. If we both skipped it, it's staying skipped.

Ben

So it is written, so it shall be.

I don't really have a lot of positive things to say. Like, I think the set design was cool, I think the production design was fine. I think overall the performances are strong. The GMMTV talent is consistently solid at the level we expect of them. I don't think anyone else at GMMTV—at the time at least—could have done what First was asked to do in this character, or characters, he's playing, technically, two.

Nini

This is purely a writing fail. There's nothing else that I can point to that is wrong here. This is a hundred percent writing fail.

Ben

So, The Shipper was bad and wrong and offensive and evil. We will not be taking further questions about this show. We have said all that I want to say about this show, and I will not be referring to it going forward. We all deserved better than this.

Nini

I know there are those of you out there who love it. I'm sorry. I'm not one of you, and I am not willing to discuss it at all. 

Ben

I've said my piece and counted to three.

Nini

Amen, and hallelu. Moving on.

59:46 - Next Watches

Nini

So what are we going to catch up on in the summer and talk about in the fall? 

Well…for me, I will finally be getting past my weird reaction to the uncanny valley effect that I get from watching the face smoothing filters on the show and I am going to watch Light On Me.

Ben

Good.

Nini

Ben has been recommending this to me. He recently rewatched it and says that it holds up. Everybody loves this show. I've always intended to watch it but I could not get past the skin smoothing filter. It makes everybody look like a weird robot. It's just unsettling. I am going to fight through my horror of it to actually watch the show. 

[both laugh]

Ben

Jesus Christ.

Nini

And I'm gonna talk about it when we [laughs] when we come down to the fall, so look out for that discussion in October. Ben, what are you gonna watch over the summer?

Ben

[sighs] So, one of our recent pickups—who's been a delight—has watched so many things that I've recommended that I gave her a coupon, which she cashed in on Coffee Prince, which I am currently watching. And Nini has also convinced me to watch Mama Gogo. 

I originally skipped Mama Gogo because I had watched Friendzone, and I had watched Friendzone 2: Dangerous Area, and I just wasn't in the mood for Jojo doing big cast, obnoxious, soap-opera-level drama, and so I just skipped Mama Gogo at the time. We're about to watch Only Friends in probably the next one to three months maybe. I will watch Mama Gogo in preparation for more of Jojo's oeuvre, and then I guess we'll talk about both of those.

Nini

I think you're gonna enjoy Mama Gogo. It's not gay, but it feels gay?

Ben

I have watched Jojo's work. I know what you're talking about.

[both laugh]

Nini

I think you're gonna have a good time with it. 

So, that's what we're gonna be catching up on over the summer and talking about in our Catch Up Corner in October. So, look out for that.

1:02:33 - Me, My Husband, and My Husband’s Boyfriend

Nini

So in keeping with our mission to watch things that are queer-adjacent, queer-ish, as well as queer things, Ben and I both watched over this spring Watashi to Otto to Otto no Kareshi—Me, My Husband, and My Husband’s Boyfriend.

Ben, what is this about?

Ben

A mess! Me, My Husband, and My Husband’s Boyfriend is about a Japanese high school teacher who is sexually unfulfilled in her five-year marriage despite having an otherwise devoted and caring partner, who then discovers that her husband—on their anniversary— is making out with some guy right outside their door. In the process of trying to cope with this and deal with this, they end up attempting to form a poly triad with this guy, who her husband is seeing, who turns out to be her high school student who is an adult now. He also had feelings for her, and so they end up in this complicated situation where everyone's trying to take care of everyone. It's a little bit of a hot mess, and the show ends up asking for people to interrogate what their own relationships mean for them, though it ends on a somewhat ambiguous note for our trio. 

There's a lot to unpack along the way there, but the broad strokes is a teacher finds out that her husband is cheating on her with a man, and she decides that they're going to try and make this trio work. Complications ensue.

Nini

‘Complications ensue’ is putting it mildly. I feel muddled about the show, but the show is also pretty muddled, I think. It feels like they were trying to do something. I'm not sure it got all the way there— 

Ben

It did for me!

[both laugh]

Nini

Maybe it did for the audience that they were aiming it towards, which is obviously their local audience in Japan—

Ben

And sad, gay artsy boys like me!

Nini

I'm really curious as to how this was received inside of Japan. Japan's been doing these shows where they try to marry the individual instincts that are related to identity and specifically queer and queer-adjacent, I guess, identities. They're trying to marry that to the collectivist culture. So they're trying to put these shows in front of people like “This is maybe seem a little bit strange to you, but look at how happy everybody is. Isn't it most important that people are happy?” 

And, this one, I think from what I got from it, It seems like it didn't know exactly what it wanted to say about polyamory. There's a polyamorous character, who is Shuhei, who is the…husband's boyfriend, who is also in love with the wife. But the other characters aren't poly but they're still trying to make a poly relationship work.

It's so much! They're trying to stuff so much into this show, and I'm not sure that it entirely works for me. Ben has other ideas.

Ben

They're not poly to start, but no one is really except for characters like Shuhei, and I think that's why I like it. The big thing about being queer is you have to decide what relationships are going to be for yourself. You have to figure out what friendship, romance, and intimacy are going to be for you one person at a time. The etiquette rules of cis-heteronormativity do not apply to you, and so what works for me in this is most of the people who walked into this story were not poly but they did care about the people involved. 

Was being a poly triad the right solution for them? Absolutely not, but at the core you have two people trying to juggle a complicated sense of duty to each other, while also wanting different things from each other and maybe other people, and having to reconcile what all of those things are going to be for each other because they also wanted to honor the vows and choices they made to commit to each other under the previous structures before they got into this. 

So, no, Yuki and Misaki are not poly really in going into this, but opening themselves up to the idea that the way they understand love might not be concrete enables them to find something that puts them maybe on the path to actually being comfortable and cared for, and properly caring to the people that they value.

Nini

I would rock with that except for one very important thing. Yes, they're still working it out at the end. The show does end ambiguously, but the overwhelming feeling I get at the end is not a feeling of hope, it's not a feeling that they are going to work it out—that they're working through it and they're going to get to the place, because I still don't feel like they are being honest with themselves entirely about what they want. 

For example, Misaki, she wants sex and what she ends up with in the poly relationship, and even in sort of a wider polycule that she’s decided that she's putting together, none of it nets her the sex that she wants. But she has talked herself into it as being right for her, while it still doesn't give her what she wants. 

And I think it's very similar to Yuki. Yuki wants to be in a gay relationship. He wants to be in a gay monogamous relationship, and the polycule doesn't give him that either. So it feels like they're not even working towards the things that they want. That they've decided on this as a solution, but it doesn't actually solve anything for them.

Ben

So the reason why it doesn't bother me at the end is I don't need the confirmation. They want you to think about it. It's not about whether or not this polycule works. It's a question of, “Have your thoughts about polyamory changed from spending five hours with these characters?” And so the ambiguity at the end is totally fine for me because you're allowed to project what you hope for onto them, and the question is whether or not you can reconcile what version of their lives looks like. It's the thinking about it that's important for them. 

I totally see…your kind of hopeless read on the situation, but it doesn't bother me because they lean into ambiguity at the end. And so you're allowed to project onto it what you maybe want for yourself, or for those characters. Like, I do agree with you that Misaki wants sex, and they don't confirm her getting sex onscreen, but they confirm her taking charge of her life which to me is at the core of her lack of sex.

Nini

It's not even for me that they don't show her getting sex on screen. It's not like that. It's more about her mindset about it. Instead of that remaining part of her mindset: the fact that she wants sex. By the end she's completely put that thought aside it feels like.

Ben

I think it's implied that her desire for sex is also tied up in her notions of the kind of family they're supposed to have.

Nini

I'm not sure I agree with you there because it's one thing to feel like you should be having sex, and another thing to want sex, and I feel like Misaki wants sex. There is an argument to be made there about doing the things that you're expected to do and not doing the things that you're expected to do. Like, I fully see where the show is going with that with the character of the other teacher—I think it's Misumi—the fact that Misaki is not doing what Misumi thinks that she should do. So Misumi inserts herself into the situation and causes a problem. 

She's trying to fix it because she thinks that Misaki is too weak or too something to do the things that she should be doing, when it's really that Misaki doesn't agree that that's necessarily what she should be doing. I get that part. I'm down with what they're trying to do there, but I didn't get the sense that she wanted to have sex because she thought it's something that she should do. It felt like it was something that she herself wanted and she wasn't getting. 

Maybe I'm getting too involved in the sex of it. Maybe that wasn't the intention.

Ben

They leave who she inevitably chooses…to bang it out with ambiguous and up to the audience, Because for them to confirm in any sort of way I think would lead to too narrow a read on polyamory itself.

Nini

So the idea that they're trying to get across is that this is not about sex. Polyamory is not a sex thing.

Ben

Correct.

Nini

I can accept that take, in terms of what they're trying to put in front of their audience.

Ben

Both of them want sex. Like Yuki wants sex, too, when it comes to Shuhei, but like he's unsatisfied because he can't enjoy it openly the way he realizes he wants to and needs to. And so much of this is about them all having to let go of their preconceptions about what their lives should look like. And so, like, the final scene of the three of them, like, seeking each other out at night, and then just being happy to see each other, works for me because it feels like they see each other, and that's enough for me. Like, I don't have to understand it to get that, whatever they found, it works for them. 

That's how I feel about every polycule I've ever met. I don't always get it, but everybody involved seems all right. Their relationship is not about me. If they say they're happy, I just accept that and move along.

Nini

I'll take that away and think about that, but my overall feel of the show is that it definitely had ideas that it wanted to get across. It had an audience that it was talking to. I think that maybe I wasn't the audience, and that is part of my ambivalent feelings about the show. So, for me, it lands on ‘good,’ obviously has a point of view, obviously has a story it wants to tell. But it's not for me, and that's fine.

Ben

I gave this a 9 because I really engaged with all the ideas the whole way through, and I  was really gripped by the whole of it. I liked how so much of it ends up being about Misaki having to defend her family from herself, from her co-worker, and I like that she's consistently fighting for the boys specifically, and that she cares about them. 

Nini

Ben gives it a 9. I, on quality, give it a 9 and a half.

Ben

Oooh, look at you.

Nini

Like I said, it is a good, objectively good, show. I'm just not the audience for it.

1:15:53 - Spring Roundup

Ben

And we're back! 

Now that we’ve finished catching up on all of the shows—good and bad—it's finally finally time for the Spring Roundup. This week we have our first guest on The Conversation. We have brought my best friend, David onto The Conversation. David, say hello to the people. 

David

Hey, y'all! 

Ben

Okay. [David laughs]

Nini

Hi, David! I'm so excited to have you with us! 

David

I am, too!

Nini

I remember saying to Ben, like, probably around the time the first voice note hit the chat, like, ‘David has to come on the show.’ So, I am very glad that we were able to make it work.

David

I love that. He was telling me that people wanted to hear me, and I'm like, “Look, there are too many people who tell me to shut up. I love this!” [David and Nini laugh]

Nini

That will never be a problem over on this side. 

David

“David talking again.”

Nini

Never shut up, I beg you. [chuckles]

1:16:40 - David Introduction and BL Background

Alright, alright. So, David, tell us about you. Tell us about how you even got into BL. Tell us a little bit about the David story.

David

Um, hoo! I'll say, so I'll start from the BL angle. I got into BL because of Ben. I don't know if he's ever told anyone this story, but me and Ben have two very different takes on Love of Siam. He is not to bring it up in my presence. I feel tricked and deceived. But because of Love of Siam, I didn't even realize that BL was a category, and Ben tried to initially get me into it, but I got really sick for a while. And I wasn't watching with him, and then I started getting over it and the first BL that like fell into my lap because I found it on YouTube was Until We Meet Again. 

And then it was a rabbit hole. I like finished that BL in like I think one sitting. 

Ben

Which is insane. 

David

And I think in that sitting I was texting Ben like, “Oh hell no!” [laughs] And then immediately went and watched another whole show back to back and that was Love by Chance.

Nini

Interesting!

David

Finished that the next night. [Nini laughs] Yeah, girl, I know. I know. 

Ben

It was super annoying having David texting me about old shows because like we're neck deep in like 2021 content. [David laughs] Like that was a busy year. There was a week at one point we had 16 shows to watch and David’s like, “So this show in 2018: I really want to talk about it.” 

David

I was also watching all the current stuff. 

Ben

Yeah, that was a lot. 

David

I was, I think at least six, seven hours a day. For a while it was all BL. 

Ben

According to David's MDL, he's basically current on all of the BL 

David

Yeah. There's maybe like four or five recent ones that I haven't watched, and two of those I was directly told by someone ‘you are not missing anything.’ 

1:18:50 - David’s History with Queer Cinema

Ben

Here's an interesting question because you and I have been in the guts of queer cinema a long time. Prior to BL, what are some of your favorite gay movies that you remember? 

David

Now, of course he knows this is loaded because I'm always gonna say Big Eden.

Ben

It’s so good.

David

One, it like touches my heart. When I'm depressed I watch Big Eden. It's one of the few times where I've been upset at the main queer character almost the entire movie. Henry has issues. But Big Eden is a beautiful movie, and then maybe after that Beautiful Thing, To Wong Foo, Priscilla Queen of the Desert, Bound, Like Water for Chocolate—another lesbian classic. 

Ben

To elaborate on The Love of Siam conversation, we watched Love Siam, and David and I were both deeply repulsed by what happened there. But we contextualized it in different ways. David was furious and was like, “I never want to discuss this film ever again,” and so David was not exactly primed for BL because he was so ambivalent about Thailand.

The big Thai gay things we watched between 2012 and 2017ish…

David

Oh, Jesus Christ.

Ben

…were Love of Siam, Bangkok Love Story—a horrible film.

David

Horrible fucking film.

Ben

The Blue Hour—a good film but really unsettling—and How to Win at Checkers (Every Time). 

David

Lord Jesus.

Ben

So. 

David

Like Thailand routinely came for my throat and I had done nothing to it. Thailand routinely showed up at my front door with these movies like, “Come outside. We ain't gonna jump you,” and inevitably I would open the door and get jumped, and I never learned my lessons. So—

Ben

[laughs] It would always be me leading them. I’m like hey I got this film!

David

Yeah!  It’s Ben. It's Ben. Yeah, no, it wasn't Thai. It was Ben sitting outside with the movies. “Come outside. You won't get jumped.” You said that last time. “Girl, come on, stop talking about old shit.”

[Nini laughs]

Ben

I like the queer angst films. David does not.

1:20:59 - David’s Favorite BL Actors

Ben

So back to BL! For funsies: How about you tell the people of the podcast who some of your favorite boys are. 

David

Ohm and Fluke. 

Ben

She is a My Blue girlie. 

David

Uh, I really am. [whispers] Earth Pirapat. I love him. 

Nini

Why did you whisper it like that?

David

If you hear this, Earth, my one true love. [Nini laughs] My current husband, I love him. He is a placeholder for you. I just want you to know [Nini laughs harder] he can be gone tomorrow, bae. Like it ain’t nothing. Earth, what do you need? Like, I got you. What do you need, Daddy? You need a boat?

Nini

I heard the F at the end of Earth right there and I was like I feel you. I completely understand where you're coming from this moment—not my particular ministry but I feel you.

David

Yeah, thank you, thank you. I had to constantly deal with Ben's malcontent, so thank you for acknowledging…

Ben

I will back up David's Earth girlie bona fides. David has not seen Water Boyy because I refused to let David suffer that loss, but David saw Earth for all of two minutes in Love By Chance and he's calling me “Who is this man! I need to know who this man is immediately!” 

David

I—he came on the screen. I was like “and that's it, yep, right there!” 

Nini

You were officially sprung.

David

Right there! [gross David mouth noises] Yes.

Nini

Oh my God. [laughs]

David

Yeah, Earth. Earth. That's all I gotta say, Earth. That man—whew—Lord.

Ben

David has an appreciation for what he calls ‘the Big Talls’ and—

David

Yeah, I love the Big Talls.

Nini

Fair. You know how I feel about a Big Tall.

Ben

You and Nini can hang out together talking about Man Trisanu—

David

Man! Oof, girl! Not Man! Oh my…girl!

Nini

‘Man.’ Is. Correct.

David

Never has a name so encapsulated a being.

Nini

‘Man’ and ‘tree’ in the same place.

David

Girl. Man. Tree. Mountain. Stud. I mean, look, look, look, Man. Man did the job that he was sent here to do. God Bless him. May Buddha protect him. Like yass. [Nini laughs]

1:23:24 - David’s Thoughts on the Spring Shows

Nini

Okay, so we've got the shows we've got the boys. Let's dive into the season. Talk to me about how you felt about this spring—all the shows we've been watching over the last few months

David 

So, I think I've said this to Ben before. I felt that this season was probably the one of the most extremes. Like there were a few things that were...hmm...misses, kind of, but for the most part we had…duds and bangers. And the bangers made the duds and the misses that much worse. 

We had [The] Eighth Sense, Bed Friend, Our Dining Table, Jack o’ Frost, and everything else was okay, but those are all 10s and they were bangers, and it just made everything—

Ben

How dare you forget La Pluie? I will beat you. 

David

Oh I'm, I'm so sorry, please forgive me sir. [Ben laughs] You're right. I—I'm so sorry, sir. La Pluie. He's right. That was wrong. I do deserve the slapdown that I just received.

Ben

Sat in my house—for 11 of 12 episodes. 

David

In his house—played in his face y'all. Played in this man’s face. In his face like he didn’t know who it was. I’m sorry. La Pluie.

[Nini laughs]

There were a lot of good ones and I think that's why there were so many, many more bad ones. In particular, the most glaring combination is the shows that were basically the same show but one was clearly better.

Step by Step, [A] Boss and a Babe. Look, A Boss and a Babe, I get what they were trying to do but the whole show was a massive misstep, and it was so much more obvious because right after A Boss and a Babe we got Step by Step—which fumbled maybe a couple of times—it fumbled a little—but it stuck the fucking landing. 

Ben

Hmm...

David

I think—oh here—

Nini

Ben is gonna fight you, but David I am on your side!

David

I heard the 'mmm'. She has talked to me about this before. I actually completely agree with what I know she's gonna say, but I still think they stuck the landing in a way that everyone else fumbled and fell on their fucking face.

Ben

Hmm...

Nini

David, you me. You can't see me now but we are shaking hands! We are shaking hands.

David

We are I—I concur. Thank you.

Ben

I’m gonna have a little sip while y’all—

[David and Nini laugh]

1:26:15 - Somewhat Forgettable Shows

Ben

So you mentioned a bunch of shows that really stood out for you. Like, looking over your list, like you already mentioned like Our Dating Sim, Our Dining Table, Step by Step, La Pluie, Bed Friend…looking at the rest of the stuff: What did you genuinely enjoy, but you feel like you have to look at your list to remember that show.

David

Oh, that's a good one. I really enjoy but I have to look at the list to remember it…Our Dating Sim. I liked it but it would never be in the forefront of my mind. But if you bought it up and I saw it in front of it like “I like that.” I felt during this show—I was like ‘oh this is cute.’ 

That's a really good question. Like you liked it but you need to like, be reminded of it. And that would be, yeah…Our Dating Sim, Jack o’ Frost. God bless it, I want to say Naked Dining but Lord Jesus Christ… 

[Ben laughs]

They tr–girl, they’re my top nominee for “Y'all tried it” 

[Ben and Nini laugh]

Ben

David has declared a new entrant into Girl, You Tried. 

Nini

I'm putting it in the notes. What about you, Ben? What's the one or two that you liked but to actually remember you gotta look at the list?

Ben

It's probably…Unintentional Love Story and…Love Mate. These are both shows that I think I gave 9s to, and I would earnestly recommend, but I don't think I would independently bring them up in conversation as like BL Essentials that I really want someone else to watch. 

David

I agree with those, particularly Love Mate. Like, I would put Love Tractor on that list.

Nini

I watched Love Mate and Love Tractor after the fact. Which, by the way, the Koreans have got to get better at naming these shows. 

Ben

Love Tractor is a good one, too! Like, Love Tractor was actually good— 

David

Love Tractor was good. 

Ben

It feels like they missed it. 

David

There was a point where they could have done some stuff faster, and had these boys sucking face quicker—I'm gonna let it be what it was…It was cute, but like I said, it's on that list for me. I liked it but it never comes to the forefront of my mind. 

Nini

I feel like that's fair for both Love Mate and Love Tractor. 

What else did we watch that I have to remind myself that we watched? 

Ben

There were quite a few flops we did not even acknowledge the season. [laughs]

Nini

We're not even talking about the flops—

Ben

David's going on on a face journey right now.

David

Like, my whole, [sighs] There were so many… 've seen fish dumped on the bottom of a boat that flopped less than some—

Nini

Oh my God—

David

Fish gasping for air trying to get back into the sea! “Release me, old man, and I shall grant you three wishes!” Some of this stuff was flippity floppity floopin’ all over the place.

Ben

As I remind David about the trenches that I fought through for eight years of BL. 

David

Here he goes…

Nini

“Oh, all my life I had to fight.”

David

Had to fight David. I had to fight Viki. I had to fight iQIYI—

David

I love BL. 

Nini

Had to fight WeTV!

David

Lord knows I do! 

Ben

I did have to fight WeTV, though, shit.

[everyone laughs]

1:29:25 - Favorite Actor Pairs

Ben

Before we get into some of the cerebral questions about this season, I have one more sort of half-fun question to sort of ease us there. Of the programs that you enjoyed, which actor pairs did you enjoy working together the most—just in the work—not with all of the fan shit around it?

David

Bed Friend. 

Ben

What about Net and James really stuck out for you?

David

The material they were handling, because we can talk about all the high heat stuff—whatever— they were great. Rarely has two people had that kind of sexual chemistry, but the—trigger warning—the sexual assault thing, and how at some point you realize even though he has not told him what happened to him, he knows. And how he is respecting his boundaries and that's coming into the story and they're talking about—without talking about how someone deals with that trauma for the rest of their life. And how it can't help but inform every decision you make, and how you respond to things. 

And I do not think that any other pair could have pulled that off in the same way that Net and James did. As a matter of fact, if you had asked me if I thought they could do it, I probably would have said no.

Ben

Judging on their previous work I would not expect— 

David

—on their previous work, but they were both…fantastic. 

Ben

What about you, Nini?

Nini

My couple of the season? It's gotta be Man and Ben.

David

I'm not even mad.

Nini

I think Man and Ben did a really good job with Step by Step. 

David

I’m not even mad…even though that boy has the ugliest crying face—God bless him—Ben, I love Ben to death, but like his crying face makes me so angry. 

[Ben laughs]

I'm like please teach this child how to cry without scrunching up his mouth like that. I love him, though.

And how tall is Man? 6’9” or something?

Ben

I don't know. It's a lot though.

Nini

Man was on point. Everything he put on screen was on point, and Ben just followed along I think. I think they did really well.

David

I would like to say, too: I don't think we've ever seen…a pursuer really be…emotional. Like if you think about it, how many times have we seen “the guy” going after the person really have a breakdown and cry. There might be some tears. They're upset. They're throwing stuff, but he broke down. 

Nini

He was crying in his baby brother's lap.

David

His brother. He was like ‘what the fuck am I supposed to do?’ And he delivered that! It was completely believable. Like I watched that scene five times. He just loses it. It was completely believable. He was amazing, and I was just like ‘How dare you hurt my redwood?’ 

Nini

The thing that struck me about that scene was that Man couldn't actually produce tears but somehow—that scene—is, like, he is bawling. There are no tears and I'm still feeling everything that he's feeling because just the sound of his voice—everything.

David

It was working and this motherfucker couldn't cry! I was like how dare you! 

Ben

My couple of this season is Title and Pee from La Pluie.

Nini

I knew you were going there.

Ben

Girl, you knew what this was. We did not simp hard enough for Title during the La Pluie discussion.

[David laughs]

That boy is beautiful! He has an incredible smile. Like, they're like ‘I think Tai likes this boy too’ and I'm like ‘that's just Title. He just gives everybody the eye every time he looks at them. He breaks people. It's The Eyes of Kid Midas shit going on here.’

David

You know you can't be looking at everybody like that because even I was like he's a whore. 

[Ben laughs]

You don't look at everybody like that.

Nini

Did I not say that Tai is an alley cat like from jump.

David

And you were right. You were a prophet. You led the march because he's a whore. 

Ben

And he bit that man.

David

And then he bit him.

Nini

No, okay, sorry. We just did not ventilate this enough because I just, like, uploaded the Adult Swim episode today, which means I just listened to it again and I'm sorry we didn't talk enough about how Tai bit that man. We just didn't.

David

He bit a grown man…and then had the nerve to get mad because the man got mad ‘cause you bit him. Do we remember what he said after that? ‘You made me.’ Sir! That is inappropriate in every way shape and form that matters! You can't just be biting people.

Do I want to sometimes walk around and bite people? Yes, because, listeners, some people just deserve to get bit. We all know it, we all secretly think it. Like, don't play. Don't play. Lie to God, don't lie to me. Read your scripture. It's above me. 

All I'm saying…What was I saying? He's a whore. That's what I'm saying.

[Ben laughs]

I lost the thread at some point. 

Ben

They don't have easy characters to portray. Title has to be a likable enough protagonist for people to project onto him before they recognize that he's been in the wrong the entire time. And then he has to be wrong in a way that also makes you want to root for him to get better. And that's super difficult— 

David

Oh…I didn’t think about it like that. 

Ben

And Pee has a difficult character because he has to be all of these things without people asking any questions about his biography. Like, he has to be a perfect romantic interest but not in a way that's distracting. Pee has to portray Patts in such a way that we identify him as the ideal partner that Saengtai has been looking for this whole time, but we need to not ask any questions about him, like where does his money come from, what's the deal with his people, what does he care about outside of Saengtai and taking care of these animals and his friends 

And he encompasses Patts in such a way that he feels like a complete person. Who has turned his interest towards Saengtai in a way that doesn't demand the audience ask any goddamn questions about him. Like, for all the debating about Patts this whole season, nobody stopped to ask a damn question about how does this man's life even function, which I think is also great. Because it means everybody was caught up in Saengtai's bullshit the whole time.

They give such legible performances over the course of the show. There's never a moment where you're confused about what Saengtai or Patts is feeling and why they're feeling it. 

Ben

So we talked about the actors. We loved Net and James this season. We loved Man and Ben. We loved Title and Pee. Who else stood out this season?

Nini

Iijima and Inukai.

Ben

Also Suzuki Kosuke and Honda Kyoya. The Japanese BLs we gave 10s to? Stellar performances. Nobody has looked like such a sap more than Iijima in a long time and that was so lovely to watch. 

1:36:49 - The Changing Nature of BLs

Ben

Let's get into the cerebral. We talked a little bit in the… Adult Swim episode about how intellectually demanding this season felt. 

David, since you've been in a rapid catch up with BL for the last two years…We talked about how emotional the winter felt with Moonlight Chicken, Utsukushii Kare 2, The Warp Effect, My School President, Never Let Me Go— 

David

Back to back to back to back bangers. I don't even know if we've had a season where there were that many back to back to back bangers. 

Ben

Airing concurrently? No, that was a first. However, this particular season as you said, there were really good shows and not so great shows. How do you feel about how much the shows of this particular season required us to lean in, and pay attention to them, and talk about them, and acknowledge what was being said?

David

I think the medium is evolving. I think we're having to lean in more because some shows want us to. They're clearly writing this. They're clearly directing this. They're clearly leading us somewhere where we want you to think about this. It's not all cutesy. And I think that is a maturing of the genre itself.

Ben

Nini, you have any thoughts about the…cerebral nature of this season you want to get out for the lagniappe?

Nini

I talked a little bit about this in the Adult Swim episode, but my brain? She be tired. My brain be so tired like to the point where, over the summer, I'm just watching trash, lighthearted fluff, and one or two things that are making me think a little bit more, but mostly just—yeah—I don't want to think for the next little bit. 

David

Trash is where it's at, yup.

Nini

I'm a Thailand girlie. I go up for the Thai shows most of the time, and every big name in Thailand gave me something to look at, more or less, this season and it was all like…if not the best, it was instructive. It was interesting. It made me think. So, I generally had a good time, but she tired.

Ben

I almost want to say this is where the genre peaks for me. Like I've been wondering what the peak of BL was going to look like for a while. There was a lot of really heavy stuff this season about what queer people are living with and experiencing, and I am curious where BL goes after this. 

1:39:34 - Girl, You Tried

So before we talk about where BL is going next…We've been building towards this all season. It's time to hand out Girl, You Tried. 

[David laughs]

Dave this is your first time on the podcast with us. During the VIIB Awards we handed out an award for a show that. Boy, there were some ideas, there were some performances—they were not in the same meeting. 

David

[laughs] At all. The focus group saw something different. Um, people watched a different show. Some notes got jumbled up. Uh, clearly the director was asleep or just not paying attention. Things happened. 

Ben

Nini, please introduce our contestants.

Nini

For those of you who might be new to us, Girl, You Tried is an award that we give out every season for a good concept that struggled with its execution. So, our four nominees. Four, people! Four nominees for Girl, You Tried this season are: late entry—Naked Dining, original entry—A Shoulder to Cry On, and along the way entries—A Boss and a Babe and Step by Step. 

You've heard us talk about all of these shows across the season, so we're not going to dive too deep. Y'all will have heard the problems that we had with the shows. David, aside from Naked Dining which is the one you put on the list, maybe tell the people why you think Ben and I put specific shows on the list.

David

To be fair, I did not watch A Shoulder to Cry On because Ben dogged that show out so bad I wasn't even gonna give it the time of day. So, um, I can't vote on A Shoulder to Cry On. 

Naked Dining takes it home for me because they were both annoying. They both were getting on my nerves, and this weird thing that they love doing in Japan, where people take off for prolonged periods of time and don't talk to one another…is obnoxious. There were all these weird near misses, and the food was supposed to be more central but it really wasn't. Some things just didn't make sense and no one would explain it. Normally that's okay, but there are things that are central to the story that just didn't make sense. 

Ben

How did they try? 

David

What they tried for was cute little cooking show with a side of romance. What they got was day-old, discounted bread. They wasted my time and my soul. It was a waste. If we're taking it down to brass tacks, they tried…something…I don't know what it may have been.

Maybe they were trying to do a cooking show. Maybe they were trying to do a show about kitchen safety, and why you shouldn't be in your kitchen naked. I really don't know what they were trying to do. 

Ben

Nini, we've talked about a lot of these shows a lot. Who is your winner for Girl, You tried for this season?

Nini

Well for me, it's always gonna be who, with like some nips, some tucks, some tweaks, would have been a 10 for me? That's my criterion, and for me that show is Step by Step, ‘cause Step by Step was like, I think I ended up giving it like a 9.

Ben

Yeah, you gave it a 9…

Nini

Yes, I did! I truly think that with a couple of nips and tucks and tweaks like Step by Step could have been a 10 show for me. I just enjoyed whatever Tee was doing. I…was into the ideas that he was playing with. You know I'm a vibesy bitch and I was feeling the vibe of Step by Step. 

But! It needed some—some tidying—it needed some cleaning up. Like I said, some nips, some tucks, and it would have been essential for me. So yeah, Step by Step. That's my winner. How about you, Ben?

Ben

I went back and listened to some of our stuff in preparation for the Girl, You Tried award, and I think the fact that we had a gaming company and a team of gamers and they never did anything with that as a potential crossover feels like a huge miss from the writing standpoint, which means that they were barely paying attention. That's a huge knock in the ‘you're not really’ trying section of the board for me. And I think just listening back, the intensity with which I was criticizing Step by Step is basically the built-in answer for me. 

I love Tee a lot, as a creator, as a queer person, and…I'm always rooting for him, but goddamn does he make it hard sometimes.

[David and Ben laugh]

Nini

Ben said Tee’s that friend you have who's right, but damn, shut the fuck up. [laughs]

Ben

Drink your juice, Shelby! 

David

Tee really is. Girl, you shoulda just sat there and ate your dinner. Tee really is that friend. See! Just sit there, just eat. 

Ben

Like, the reason why it's Step by Step is, as an entertainer, Tee—I think—broke trust with his audience. And he really misfired there, because, like, there are so many good ideas in Step by Step, and he's got a really good eye as a director. He's a really legible storyteller but he's got to figure out how to put these things together. He's got to figure how to structure his episodes more effectively. And so for me, it ends up being Step by Step because I can feel the show that Step by Step wants to be more than the other shows on this list. 

Like, Naked Dining doesn't know what it wants to be. A Shoulder to Cry On got edited to all hell because of the idols involved. And what the fuck was New even doing with the bunch of fucking gamers in a workplace BL? Anyway. So, it’s Step by Step.

Nini

All right. The dubious honor of Girl, You Tried for Spring 2023 with two- thirds of the votes [laughs] goes to Step by Step.

David

I amend my vote. You have talked me out of my vote. I will now amend my vote: Step by Step clears the board! 

Ben

The whole panel! [laughs]

David

It'll be the only award show it ever sweeps. 

[Nini laughs]

Nini

Sorry! So it's now unanimous.

David

Minus ones across the board.

Ben

Alright, panel, 10s or chops? Nini?

Nini

One chop.

Ben

Two chops.

David

Three fucking chops. [Nini laughs] 

I don't see it!

1:46:56 - Looking Ahead

Ben

Our final section: Looking Ahead. What do we have up next? Nini, you've got the list.

Nini

Well, what are we watching right now? So let's start with that. So, one of the things that we're watching now [sighs]...I'm just gonna say it. We're watching Be My Favorite. I am on record on this podcast as saying that I had zero interest in watching Be My Favorite. Ben said he was going in hostile—which, he did. 

We had to literally amend the name of our chat for the show, like as the show went on. What did it start as?

Ben

Not Our Favorite.

Nini

I was not watching at that point. It went from Not Our Favorite to Maybe? It's Good?? to We’re Mad This Might Be Good. And then now our chat is just called UGH! FINE!!

[David laughs]

David

So I slugged my way through the very first episode, and when he had said it was like the first time in a long time that me and him have both been like ‘absolutely not’ and then…two weeks later this bitch goes “so Be My Favorite” and I turn—aghast, of course—because I thought not only had that ship sailed but we waited until they got at the harbor and we sank it. 

And I discover that homegirl down here is taking a sub to go look at its remains. Then of course, because I'm like no this has got to be a complete disaster, because there's no way this Miss Thing went back to his show and now I'm sitting here like “Ugh…okay.” 

Ben

What else is on the “Wow are we actually watching this?” list. 

David

I know it's not Hidden Agenda. 

Nini

It is Hidden Agenda.

David

I haven’t watched it yet because I was gonna let Ben watch it. I'll be like if Ben hates it I won't bother watching it. But I don't want to start watching this shit, and like it, and have this bitch hate it, and not have anybody to watch this show with. 

Ben

I don't hate it! I don't think I'm sold on it yet. But I don't hate it. 

David

Someone told me that they have definitely gotten better…as acting, now, one show under.

Ben and Nini

Hmmmmmmmmmm...

David

No! Not the both of you! Not the both of you!

[Ben and Nini laugh]

Not the both of you going 'hmmmm' like a starting up race car. I am so mad that you both at the, nearly a second apart 'hmmmm'

[Everyone laughs]

Nini

Here's the thing, right? [David continues laughing] I wasn't going to watch it, then I found out it was Tee and then I was like “well shit, now I have to watch it” because I am contractually obligated to watch everything that he makes after Lovely Writer.

David

Understood.

Nini

This is giving me such Lovely Writer teas in some very specific ways, but it's too early to tell as yet— 

David

What are we? Three in, or two in?

Nini

Three in. Yeah, it's too early to tell—like, with Tee you got to give it half the show. Because, like, when I think about Lovely Writer like around four is when it started turn, and by six I was like ‘yeah, okay, in.’ 

With Tee, he's a slow burn motherfucker. You just got to give him time to get into it. So I am holding my thoughts on it…so far, but I am contractually obligated to watch it all the way through.

Ben

David and I caught up on Laws of Attraction this weekend. It's a lot of fun. We're having a great time. 

David

I love him. 

Ben

He’s talking about the insane lawyer. 

David

His level of outright ridiculous sissiness. I live for. It is walking gay chaos…and I…live… for every moment he is on the screen. And somehow each shirt got gayer.

Like, I don't know if he's having conversations with people in costuming, or if he is like pointing at a random poor little assistant and going “You I want you to go to a woman's blouse store and get the ugliest, most asymmetrical shirt you can.”

Ben

[laughs ]And it better be champagne-colored!

David

“And you are to bring it back here, and I swear to God, if it's not earth-toned or champagne…I will beat you to within an inch of your life. Go do your job and get out of my face.” 

He is giving me everything because, look, girls, gays, and theys with guns—I'm here for. And when he goes to that office trying to beat that boy up, and he pulls out that gay-ass little gun… and goes, “Look, Boo-Boo, I'mma put one in you one way or another.” 

[Nini laughs]

I live. I live! I was resurrected. I had bronchitis and he cleared it up. It resurrected me. That whole scene healed me in body and spirit. I'm not gonna even lie.

Nini

So I am not watching this. I am waiting for somebody to tell me I must watch this. 

David

Oh girl, you're not missing anything. Do not get us wrong! You are not missing cinéma vérité by any stretch of any one's fucking imagination. But what I will tell you is that it is delightful.

Ben

Also from Thailand, we are watching Be Mine Superstar.

Nini

When I was talking earlier about a trash watch. This is what I was talking about. [laughs] 

David

I have not been watching it because it was another one that I was kind of waiting to see what Ben was gonna say.

Ben

Be Mine Superstar is fine. It is…very watchable. It isn’t asking a lot of me right now. I'm having a good time with the performances. Overall, it is a low stakes watch for me, and I'm with Nini. Like I'm having a great time with the big pieces but I don't mind having just a very watchable show where it's very clear that Ja and First are having a good time playing against their type. 

David

Okay!

Ben

Okay, we're gonna talk about the shit I care about!

Nini

Now Ben wants to talk about Japan.

Ben

Let's talk about Japan! 

David

Oh, here she go. Buckle up, folks. It's gonna be a bumpy night. 

Ben

Japan is currently airing two shows. I am living my best life! 

Currently, we have Tokyo in April is… which is the first new outing from MBS, who have continued their Drama Shower rotation. A lot of you may not be familiar with who MBS is but they are a Japanese broadcasting network. It is very, very cool that MBS is invested in BL because they have produced some of the most important shit that's worked its way out of Japan into the masses, like some of the most famous anime comes from MBS. Very, very cool that MBS is committing an entire second year to BL and they are continuing to get more gritty with the kinds of stories they're willing to tell along the way, and I am really, really impressed with Tokyo in April is… and I don't want to say anything else right now because we have a lot to unpack when we finally discussed it in fall! 

Also, Minato’s Laundromat 2 is airing right now, and while Nini may never watch Minato's Laundromat 2 so we'll probably not discuss it on this show except for me saying like it deserves a VIIB Award later, it is really cool that the showrunners opted to abandon the source material for the second season. 

From Korea we have Jun & Jun right now. If you are kind of bougie about Korean production, I don't think you're going to enjoy this one. 

Finally, Taiwan is back! Oh my god, Taiwan is back and it's as cracked out as ever! Holy shit Stay by My Side is so stupid! I love it! 

[David laughs]

We have needed a stupid BL for a while, and like it's not stupid in a sense like the plotting is bad, the storytelling is bad, but it's just so silly. It's like what if we take all these goofy BL tropes and just ramp that up to 9! Not 10, just 9! 

We don't know when Man Suang is going to come out. We're anticipating it but we have no idea when it's going to release because they are doing the international festivals circuit thing.

David

A friend of mine got into a viewing of it. Apparently it's good. Sincerely good. 

Nini

There is something else coming out of Drama Shower that I don't have on the list because it only came up recently. My Personal Weatherman. That is what it’s called.

And the last one, which I am obligated to mention because my baby Na Naphat. Na and ISBANKY is in it and Saiparn from Midnight Museum. It's Club Saipan Fine: Moments and Memories. 

Ben

That looks like a goddamn mess.

Nini

It looks exactly like the kind of trash that I need to watch, and it’s only four episodes.

Ben

I'm glad it's only four episodes, so you can report back quickly because goddamn I am not doing that one. 

David

Ben look harrangued—and traumatized—right now. [Ben laughs] He's huddling on the floor in the corner shaking his head. 

Nini

It's mess and lesbians.

David

Oh wait! There are lesbians in it?

Nini

Yes.

David

And here we are! We're there. That's it, that’s it. I'm watching it. 

1:57:44 - Outro

Ben

As we wrap this up, David, thank you for joining us as our very first guest on The Conversation. 

David

Oh god this was awesome.

Nini

I just want to let the people know that we've been here for two hours. I don't know how long the edit's going to be but we've been having a goodass time.

Ben

I think we just take, like, the necessary stuff for the episode and then just release a bonus episode and just call it the David Cut. [David laughs]

David

It's the David Cut where I talk in a gravelly voice. 

Ben

David, since we are together we have to do the thing for Nini because she's been waiting for it for a long time. 

Let's remind our listeners something very important: Dick is abundant.

David

And low in value. 

Ben

Dick futures are not a safe investment. 

David

The NASDICK is trending down.

Nini

[crying] The NASDICK…

Ben

I'm making sure it's the NASDICK—I said NASDICK and I almost killed Ben. The first time I said the NASDICK is trending down and almost killed one of my best friends.

Nini

[laughs] On that note, I think it's time to wrap, and we will bid you all adieu until the fall. David, Ben, say bye to the people. We out.

David

Bye! Thank you guys for having me! It was great! 

Ben

Peace!