#same with fanon nmj

[thatswhatsushesaid]

as usual i feel obligated to say that i don’t actually have a problem with popular fanon being popular. what i have a problem with is popular fanon being conflated with actual canon to the point where having a conversation about what actually happens in the fucking book becomes almost impossible, because fanon is treated like canon.

[greenandhazy]

okay but it's the fact that CQL is in large part about what you would sacrifice for the people you love, and in almost every other instance in the show, that sacrifice is portrayed as, if not necessarily the Right decision, at the very least evidence of fundamental goodness. the Yunmeng trio, Wen Qing for her brother and Nie Mingjue for his (Fatal Journey counts 100%), Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji, Song Lan and Xiao Xingchen, they make difficult choices for love and that makes them Good even if it doesn't make them happy.

and then there's Jin Guangyao and Nie Huaisang. whose identities are so fundamentally wrapped up in being His Mother's Son and The Little Brother, respectively, and they are so singularly devoted to the legacy of their relative that they will continue to fight for it long after death. they will sacrifice others in a heartbeat. they will lie, they will scheme, they will cause others pain. they will endure humiliation after humiliation. they will put on a persona that makes their true selves unrecognizable even to the people who know them best. ultimately they will sacrifice their own morality, their own goodness, in a way that would probably horrify the people in whose names they make this sacrifice.

I am falling asleep and these are random disjointed thoughts but other things that drive me feral about them is:

the backstory CQL gives, Meng Yao being at the Unclean Realm for (?) a length of time, and allll the visual signifiers of a close, basically familial relationship between them

(I know fanon likes to talk about "the Nie braids" as a sect-wide thing but they ARE NOT. they are a HUAISANG AND MINGJUE AND MENG YAO THING. litcherally no other Nie disciple wears them, not even Nie Zonghui! that's so significant!)

CQL/FJ leaning hard into the suggestion of the brothers being more or less on their own, very little discussion of their parents, leaving room to lean into the idea of NMJ fulfilling a parental role as well as a brotherly one, and the parallel between him and Meng Shi being even stronger

the final flashback to Meng Yao and Meng Shi, and how it's framed to suggest that as coming from Huiasang--a cherished memory Meng Yao passed on to him?

I've seen this floated around on tumblr before, about how it's very likely that Jin Guangyao underestimated the depth of Huaisang's love for his brother, based on how his love manifests as overachieving. so that moment of revelation in the temple being not just "oh, you're the one who was behind this the whole time" but "oh, you and I have this same sickness, this same depth of feeling."

the character songs. I'm obsessed with them. the fact that Jin Guangyao's is a constant litany of questions, uncertainty, revolving around "How many people are willing to know your true face?", while the Nie brothers' song has their relationship as this unshakeable foundation, to the point that they're the only two characters represented by one vocalist. the Unclean Realm being unquestionably "a place of deep love" and the only uncertainty being "when will we see each other again?"

(...and that being answered in part by the title, the repeated use of farewell with connotations of permanence. Huaisang defying death, wanting his brother back in any form possible, while Jin Guangyao literally meets his doom because he is so concerned about earning his mother an easier time in her next life.)

mutual obsession over Nie Mingjue. Meng Yao keeping his head in his treasure room. there are lots of jokes about how LXC is left out of the get-along coffin, but can we talk about the fact that Huaisang sacrificed his moral compass, the reputation of his sect, the life of a troubled teenager, and 10+ years of his life all so he could free his brother's mutilated body from Jin Guangyao's clutches... and at the end of it all, Jin Guangyao is the one who will be with him for eternity?

in conclusion: I love them, your honor.

[bloomeng]

I made a post talking about my frustration with Lxc mischaracterization and several people mentioned in the tags the adjacent fanon Lxc problem, aka the “himbo” characterization.

Himbo is now just one of those internet words that has been so overused and thrown out of its original context that to me it almost has no meaning. My eyes sort of just glaze over it, which might be why it doesn’t bother me as much. But as far as mischaracterization goes— oh definitely Lxc is not at all a himbo.

Definitions vary but in my opinion to be a himbo one must be three things:

1) Obviously strong

To be a himbo it’s not enough to just be strong, you must be visibly strong. Bimbo and himbo’s were originally negative descriptors given to hot people who were supposedly stupid. What I’m getting at is it’s a visual aesthetic. If a character’s strength isn’t immediately identifiable then they’re not a himbo. I’m not talking “has to have a six pack,” I’m talking clothing that inadvertently reveals their strength. It’s about how they present themselves the same way bimbo is about how you present yourself. To be clear the majority of characters aren’t aware of the himbo label but they are conscious of the way they dress. They’re not dressing to fit a mold they’re dressing to show off in a way they think is cool. (Ex: characters like Itto and Galo walking around shirtless for the vibe)

2) Dumb in an oblivious way

Himbos aren’t book smart, nor are they great at grasping highly technical things, but they do shock everyone around them with their emotional intelligence. This trait comes from the newer, more positive interpretation of the label that the internet has created. Himbos are no longer flat out stupid, no they’re just a little dumb but they have a big heart. It’s the simplicity in their logic that allows them to be so straightforward and cut through the bs to the humanity of any given issue. However, it also means a lot goes over their heads. The obliviousness is the key to their dumb characterization because it’s what allows them to be so open and loud about what they believe in.

3) Kind

I already partially touched on this in the previous blurb but apart of the new understanding of a himbo is their capacity for kindness. Usually himbos are written to have strong internal moral codes that are very simple, but it’s the simplicity that allows them to see past the cultural norms and politics and just be respectful to everyone regardless of their background. That’s why people often say himbos can’t be sexist, racist, etc. Which I mostly agree with, but I do think that there are levels to this. I think if we’re discussing characters, himbos are allowed some minor prejudices as a flaw that they then work through. Sokka, while not a himbo, is a good example of a character who starts a series with a flaw (sexism) that comes from a well meaning place but grows from it. The important thing is the capacity to respect everyone.

Now Lxc does have some of these traits but he doesn’t display them in a way that matches what a himbo is.

Stength:

He’s very strong both in his cultivation and physically. Too bad we can’t see that just by looking at him.

Oblivious:

Lxc’s whole thing is that he’s literally book smart. Never once is oblivious to a situation. He purposely allows himself some blissful ignorance when it came to the situation between Jgy and Nmj but that was his one selfish act. He’s well adept when it comes to handling politics more so than anyone in the book. If you think that Lxc’s internal logic is simplistic that’s a fundamental misunderstanding of his character. The dumbest he ever gets is tied to class, where he struggles to do daily chores, and even then he’s never shown to be oblivious to the social hierarchy.

Kindness:

This is probably the trait Lxc embodies the most. He is very kind. That being said his internal logic system is not simplistic at all. Lxc is a lot more morally grey than he seems at first glance. While he feels strongly about not judging others based on their backgrounds he also has a deep understanding of exactly why certain people aren’t accepted in the first place. He understands his status and accepting Jgy was absolutely a calculated move on his part. It was coming from a good place but he also understood the delicacy of the situation. If he were actually a himbo he would’ve had none of that delicacy and pitched a very loud fit over it.

All of this is to say he’s no where near the realm of himbo. I think the only types of people who refer to him as one are typically the same people who only engage with his character on the most surface level. They mean well because it’s supposed to be a compliment— which might be why I don’t mind it as much— but it’s also just fundamentally the exact opposite of his character. He’s a passive reserved artist who’s been forced into a leadership position where he has to navigate politics.

[mxtxfanatic]

I know you didnt share you fandom journey for sympathy BUT, I am sending you a big, tight, inescapable hug. You can never get away from it even if you tried. I can and i will smother you in affection so that piece of shits so obsessed with things you like and facts you remember (unlike them) can stay far away and unseen. I am so sorry, I only joined the fandom a few months ago and I never realized how toxic this fandom could be. Filtering doesnt help much, hell staying off social media doesnt either because bullshit is everywhere in large doses. You and your friends are so strong for going through this and still coming out as amazing fandom creators and people. I am glad I see you on my tl. Thank you for all you do, including danfic night (again, try and pry it away from my cold dead hands...i have dead nmj's strength ok?) and being the absolute sweetest person even in DMs!

P.S. I've been curious for a while, have I seen your main around?? like i am nosey who's the amazing person behind this blog do i know them do i follow them am i in a server with them do they-

Awww, you are too sweet 🥺🥺🥺 Yeah I don’t usually talk about my history in this fandom unless it’s relevant, but since I’ve been seeing the subtle shift in the atmosphere in terms of how the new readers are willing to hold discussions and challenge the age old fanons that have since been encoded as fandom law, I figured now would be a good time to let folks know that the issue with jc stans is not new, not exclusive to fights about the “canon jc” tag (which was made on their insistence that we vacate the main tags, something they will now not admit), and has more wide-reaching consequences that you will just never know if the first time you entered the mdzs fandom was when 7seas started releasing it.

(I even forgot to bring up how the 7seas translator got called out for peddling fanon on her metas and mistranslating the actual novel to fit said metas, only to block the people who pointed it out. 7seas had to put out a statement acknowledging the myriad of mistranslations and promising to fix the mistakes (fixes still pending), and that translator has yet to put out another translation with any other publisher since.)

I’m glad that I found this corner of the fandom before I officially joined, and I’m glad that other readers, in turn, find my blog and feel like it’s a safe space to discuss the novel, even if we don’t always agree. It makes me feel like making this blog has actually been a good thing, rather than me just yelling into the void like was the original plan lol. As much bullshit as there is, it’s nice to be able to discuss my favorite stories with different people who love the story for the same reasons I do. And luckily for me, my self-worth isn’t tied into being liked by or feeling superior to people I have no respect for.

[lgbtlunaverse]

hi i'm off work and love pointless discourse, so i've been summoned lol but definitely delete if you dont find this fun! RE the poll about jc's best partner and co-parent though, i hear the argument for mian mian but still dont agree that being a good parent of one kid equals being a good parent of a future sect leader with so much trauma AND partner to a current sect leader with so much trauma lollll but More importantly than that!! who did you vote for 😂

I'm including a sceenshot that you can check against the current number of votes and remaining time so you can see i'm not lying because I have, in fact, not voted in the poll because I wasn't sure.

Listen, everyone in mdzs has trauma. Mianmian's probably got a shitton of trauma from that one time people literally tried to use her as live bait. No one's gonna fix jiang cheng's trauma, at least no one on this list.

Wen qing's a great doctor but no therapist, though she would make for a great co-leader of a sect and having another 'strict parent' involved (rather than jgy's more indulgent gentle parenting style) might help jc chill out a little.

Ofc jgy himself is also an option: proven to be good at leading a sect, also proven to be a good coparent to jl... are we including the part where yknow he is hunted for all his crimes and dies, though? Because that kinda disqualifies him as ideal candidate.

Xiao xingchen is kind and good with kids, but he is also like... 17 a year after wwx's death which means ahe-wose he's more 'older brother' range to jin ling than "parent" and also he explicitly does not want to stay put. Mianmian only left because of grave moral differnces xxc literally hates the concept of being stuck in a major clan. (Unless the fact that jin ling is heir to jinlintai+jc having no other heirs means he gets to convert yunmeng jiang to that merit-based sect he was dreaming of. Then he'd have a great time.) Unfortunately being stick with a strict idealist tends to not go well for jiang cheng, and if the whole xue yang situation still happens (i do not mean yi city, i mean the part where xxc is the one who hunted him down in the first place) could politically get... very uncomfortable. Especially for jin ling.

Nmj did also already help raise a child buuuut he's proto-suicidal and let's not make jiang cheng a widow.

Wei wuxian already knows and loves jiang cheng, the jiang, and jin ling and would be an ideal candidate if nit for... you know.

Lan wangji is also good at handling a sect plus kids, actually i've read fics with this premise, it's just you do need to dedicate 10K words of plot to get them to stop hissing at each other.

Wen Ning isn't great with politics but likely pretty good with kids, but he has lwj's problem except Even More so cause he genuinely hates jc. Also if jiang cheng is parenting jin ling here that means zixuan and yanli are in fact still dead which means he's out of the running.

Lan Xichen is good at politics plus pretty good with kids and yeah if canon plays out as it does that's pretty rough, but it wouldn't be quite as retraumatizing as what happened to jgy (considering that was lxc has is also just... the trauma of being a part of what happened to jgy) and he and jin ling could bond over that if they were closer. And unlike the previous two options he is at worst neutral to jc in canon.

For all that fanon has Song Lan as A-Qing's second parent he only knew her for like... a few minutes total. Same problem as xxc on the xue yang thing too.

I don't think huaisang or xue yang should raise a child. So I guess congratulations to the xichengers because he's looking like the best option here.

[leatherbookmark]

a tag reply to this poll in a post form, because i forgot tumblr eats tags :(

we don't know anything about either of the nie mothers... but honestly any of them living would probably make the situation better for the new sect leader!nmj. he would probably still die of the saber illness, but at least he would have had a mom, although i'm not sure if a nie mom still living would have changed anything re: nhs's revenge. would she encourage him? discourage? or would she one day ask sect leader jin for a talk because she's worried about a-sang and like... put poison in his tea? idk!

the inclusion of xy's mom is interesting, because this is like the first mention of her i've EVER seen in this fandom. i do obviously think he would lead a happier life if he wasn't a homeless orphan. and i do want him to be happy! but at the same time. i'm sorry to say it. but i do love crunchy little bastard a-yang. it's a bit like those aus where mme lan escapes with the lads in tow and cssr+wcz survive as well, and they somehow pick up ms with a-yao and they all raise their kids as wandering cultivators and everyone's happy. like YEAH but where's the crunch! the emotional issues! it's kinda boring when no one's insane(ly troubled) :0 s-sorry;;

cssr... are we only saving her or her and wcz? well, either way wwx doesn't end up at the lotus pier, and both he and the jiang siblings probably have less Troubled minds. maybe they're still friends because i guess yzy wouldn't mind THAT much if jfm's Very Much Married friends came for a visit. yknow as compared to... the actual situation

mme lan is actually interesting because we don't really know what would happen to her if she. well. didn't die (for whatever reason). like, iirc in mdzs qhj died after the wens attacked the cloud recesses, and i think he was still in seclusion during that time. this could mean that mme lan's situation would be similar. just... locked away and unable to leave even when her sons are of age. now it would be interesting if she used the wens' attack to run away on her own (if it was possible). maybe she and lxc could have ran away together and now THAT'S an idea for a fic!! i doubt she'd want to go back to the cloud recesses after the war so i think lxc could just... help her settle somewhere and visit her, with lwj or jgy, from time to time. idr if she was a wandering cultivator like cssr or if that's fanon, but she could do whatever she wanted! finally for the first time in Twenty Fucking Years !! GOOD FOR HER.

MENG SHI... i'm seeing some voices that meng shi surviving would make everything much much less murdery which... i'm not so sure! i don't think meng yao the meng yao could have earned enough money to buy his mother's meds AND pay off her debt to the brothel. in this case even if meng shi lives to find out the great cultivator jgs had her son (his son!) kicked down the stairs of the jlt, and changes her mind about him... jgy still desperately needs to free his mother and still make her proud. and the jin sect is the richest. it's entirely possible he still strives to be accepted only to commit Fraud and pocket 1/4th of a golden napkin fund to free his mother and buy her a safe and comfortable house somewhere. and then he'd still need the money to send her.

he probably would have chosen to kill jgs earlier and in a different way -- or maybe he wouldn't kill him at all if his mother was there to tell him that it doesn't matter and that it seems jgs never cared about them after all. maybe jgy would just resign himself to working himself to the bone for a father that gives less of a fuck about him than the nie captain/jin commander/etc! because he can’t really... quit, because in his case, after all he’s already done, with all he already knows about jgs and his ambitions, you can’t really walk away because you’re a potential danger! even as a son of a sex worker! not that a kicked out of the jinlintai for the 2nd time!jgy would be particularly revenge-focused, but. still.

also, if jgy decided to “quit” and still lived, somehow, either way his good opinion would be pretty much ruined. if jgs gets rid of his heroic bastard who won the war, there must be something REALLY wrong with him. i imagine it would be rather difficult to find a well-paying job in circumstances like these. on the other hand... lxc could offer both jgy and ms free living quarters in the cloud recesses, as thanks for saving his life and rebuilding his home. jgy wouldn’t be the ~lan-furen~ (sighing forever that the fandom is so set on using this term but ah well) but rather a regular disciple, or perhaps a guest disciple. i... think this would be better than nothing? and as a disciple, he could still technically rise thanks to his own merit and not because someone Up There feels this or that way about him. success!

of course, a perfect situation is jgy shanking jgs earlier and in a slightly different way, but even then i’m wondering because like... i’m not sure if everyone in jinlintai would be ok with jgy installing ~a prostitute~ in there as the current sect leader’s honourable mother. on the other hand, i don’t want jgy to be forced to send her off somewhere safe but remote! i want them to be together! on the other other hand there’s still the qin su situation. although maybe like... maybe meng shi could help there? i don’t know. wait, what was the question again

IN CONCLUSION i would save them all, just because i want them to live (duh) and everyone deserves a living mom who loves them. BUT the poll is merciless, so if i have to choose i’d like to pick an option that’s the most interesting to me, and that’s mama lan and meng shi. and meng shi wins, but not by a large margin! in my dreams there is a long, good fic where they both live :’)

[shenergyx]

You know something, Wangxian is my OTP but bb it truly is in a delulu space. like wow, you're very right about the trials and tribulations of canon wangxian.

like CQL really throws you for a tailspin - i was not the same after 51 episodes - but also - it was my first wuxia so that may play a part, lolz. my point being CQL wangxian is very very shiny and i may not have been thinking straight directly after it. And i've gotta say it - Wang Yibo DID THAT. put his back into that shit. I don't think i would have fallen in love with LWJ if not for everything he did.

Because you're right about the narratives use of LWJ to just exist for WWX's benefit. it was sorely felt every time Yibo was off screen for large swathes of time, i super noticed it, and it was like "is nothing happening at Gusu? does he not matter? HELLO??" And many of LWJ's convictions are like, "wait, but why?". Because of Yibo I trusted that LWJ must feel that way, but there is so much that supposedly happens off screen that we just never get an explanation for and it ends up doing their relationship no favors because there's no credibility, just palpable angst.

Coming to fanon, I very much leaned into my headcanon of a LWJ with much more agency. And after learning what MDZS canon was like, I simply noped out of every depiction of them as caricature opposites. They're my OTP when they're Whole people, equals, who switch, and COMMUNICATE. Not just Tall Gege and Demonic Twink with unfettered lust and chaotic devotion, which cannot be denied canon is aiming for and general fanon is loving.

Truthfully, I see them with a third. Nie Mingjue, Wen Ning, Nie Huaisang, you name it, it probably works. (For my true dream it's 100% 'An Elegant Solution' fic by Giraffeter, WWX/NMJ/LWJ, get into it) Their romance is PEAK when you throw in a third and also remember that HEY! - ya know - everyone else still exists (and are so very gay, because Hello).

In conclusion, there is just nothing to argue against anyone that cannot be assed with Wangxian. The evidence is damning. It's simply true that their perfect fantasy is far from canon, and general fanon is usually a MDZS-depicted minefield. So basically, if your Wangxian has gold and grey eyes there is a high chance they're intolerable, i'm sorry to you yours and MXTX.

hi! i was just wondering what it is specifically that you dislike about wangxian? i'm kind of intrigued, because while i get how someone could find them boring, i've never really considered anything about their dynamic (and as you mentioned in response to a previous anon, their confession scene) particularly off putting. no pressure to answer this, and this is in no way hate towards you i'm just genuinely curious <3 (i love your art by the way it's gorgeous)

Thank you for the compliment! ♥ This is gonna get ranty so I will hide it below read more as not everyone has to deal with reading this, so proceed with caution :'D

Wangxian is the weakest WWX dynamic. On god, even if I'm not fond of Yanli, they have very loving relationship where they are protective of each other and gentle with each other in a harsh world. I don't ship WWX/JC but their story and complicated love of someone you grow up with and care for deeply but clash constantly with is more interesting than anything wangxian ever had. Nie Huaisang and Wei Wuxian clicked together so naturally, they are chaotic and are similiarly not too interested in being up to rules. Jin Zixuan and WWX had a potential of going from enemies to partners in crime, to become family and have each other's backs but JZX was cut short and WWX never really cared afterwards either. WWX with the wens took time to build up but his YLLZ farmer era was one of the best WWX's in the story. Damn, even Lan Xichen who's always amused with WWX's temperament and secretly has a drink with wwx and is altogether looser with the rules while still being lawful matches with him way more than LWJ where there's... nothing. They were smashed together for convenience and we were suppossed to just go with it cause they are the two main characters. LWJ feels like he was just made so WWX has a "hot stoic top" to fuck him and the rest of the characters are actually build with the story and therefore feel more natural

Wangxian don't feel like they are in love, not in the way the fans make them out to be into some romantic picture perfect angsty deserved lovestory. LWJ's personal space is constantly disrespected, he's punished constantly for WWX's mistakes, he constantly needs to be the one to adjust to how WWX is instead of the other way around and after all that, LWJ doesn't really /know/ WWX so his attraction feels very idealized. WWX is the bad boy that goes against the rules and LWJ wishes he could be that (or with that) but it's almost a childish infatuation from their Gusu days that never evolved into something more mature. And WWX? I can't see how he'd like LWJ as anything more than in a physical sense. Even their obnoxious "Back then I wanted to sleep with you" confession scene is purely physical. He doesn't really know LWJ or respects him, LWJ is just a familiar face in a world that is against WWX and he's a hot body that likes him. LWJ is an easy score in a way, he's a safe option. And it'd be SO interesting if they went into that, but instead it's played like the only true love (dont forget, they are meant to be as the ONLY gay pairing in MDZS which I find insane when everyone else has more chemistry and in the end gets shat on so wangxian can fuck in a bush. I mean, LWJ leaves LXC to be depressed and alone after everything LXC stands for and did? Fucking ridiculous.)

It tries to "subvert" tropes but ends up being more stereotypical than anything. WWX was almost meant as this jock-y rebellious hotshot but instead we got a quirky twink, early 2000s shonen protagonist and every yaoi's Uke I've been seeing since like 2008. Are they suppossed to be different because the "stoic white-coded" one is not the bottom? Is the bar this low? If anything, this ornament top is the most usual top, let's be real, LWJ barely has personality or growth or focus, he's there to fuck WWX.

This is a petty reason but MXTX's "wangxian is the only gay couple" everyone else being implied straight as if to highlight just how real their love is that they are gay in time period where it's frowned upon, even though Yi City and 3zun combinations had more chemistry than anyone is. Annoying. And so is the "Don't ship them with anyone else and don't switch their dynamics" that fuels some of the most obnoxious people in the fandom to go after fanwork creators that do/like things differently.

All in all Wangxian is THE face of danmei, they are the most known even outside of danmei circles and they are extremely mediocry written for that. I mean, fuck, you put straight couple in their place and I guarantee no one would like it, it has the depth of a high school hormone-riddled couple who have different classes and "only" get to see each other during breaks and make out during lunch with others at the table, idk it's so fucking annoying to me when I know there were better options, when WWX had so many interesting dynamics that got shat on in favor of bland ass ship and I'm tired of having to like it/tolerate it just because it's gay.

Thank you for coming to my ted talk, this was extremely healing 🤣

[cqlfeels]

In which I am overindulgent and make a(n incomplete) list of MDZS+ characters and the Tolkien characters they would love if they read and enjoyed his books*

* This isn’t to say they would get along with these characters if they met, just that they would like them as readers

Yunmeng Jiang

JYL: I mean, hobbits as a group, just in general. Particularly loves Rosie Cotton as portrayed in the book. (Might have cried reading Beren and Luthien, but only because she was going through A Lot at the time)

JC: It’s Boromir, but he feels like that’s the wrong answer somehow so he chooses Fingolfin and that also backfires because now everybody thinks he’s broadcasting his daddy issues when he just wanted to be the guy who stabs Morgoth

WWX: Doesn’t have a favorite when he’s young, but the older he gets, the more he appreciates Maedhros, for philosophical reasons. Has a crush on Glorfindel and doesn’t realize his experiences aren’t universal, which makes for Interesting conversations with other fans

Gusu Lan

LXC: I know the common fandom opinion is Elrond, and I definitely agree, but I think he’d also like Finrod. Depends on which book he’s reading, really

LWJ: Will not admit to liking anyone because he won’t lie, and the true answer is Feanor and he finds that mortifying. Caveat that the same instinct that gives him his canon YLLZ kink does make him prone to overreacting to like 90% of thirsty Sauron fancontent, which is something WWX found fun back when they were teenagers

LSZ: Throughout canon, from toddler all the way to the last scene, it’s Bilbo. Post-canon he suddenly loves Elrond. For reasons.

LJY: Gandalf for his dialogue. Developed a sudden passion for Beren As The Best First Age Hero the instant he noticed JL is a Turin fan (His favorite scene is the starving in the forest interrogation from The Hobbit, though)

Lanling Jin

JZX: Thingol Has Done Nothing Wrong Ever In His Life

JGY: If anyone asks, Barahir. Secretly? Rian.

MXY: Also Maedhros but for very different reasons than WWX. Has read every h/c fic on AO3, but also every dead dove, and at this point doesn’t remember what’s canon and what’s fanon

JL: Turin. (“Because he’s cool!” he will say to LJY, but it’s actually because he misses his parents) Also a huge fan of Huan as a concept

QS because I can: Indis, but before she had read HoME it was Legolas. People tend to find that confusing.

Qinghe Nie

NMJ: Men as a group, Theoden and Hurin in particular - you’re gonna die, but do it right

NHS: He doesn’t know, he doesn’t know, he doesn’t know! If pressed, he’ll say Finarfin and it’s like, 75% true

Qishan Wen

WQ: Morwen, but she vibes with what Rivendell is trying to do

WN: Should be Sam, but he imprints on Fingon once he reads the Silm. WQ wishes he liked literally anyone else.

Bonus Yi City

XXC: Nienna, but he’s been known to Contemplate several characters

SL: Imrahil (Also: strict book purist, and a huge Gimli fan - these things are related)

XY: Doesn’t actually like Tolkien but ships silvergifting. Finds the fall of Numenor hilarious as a concept despite having only skimmed the Akallabeth

AQ: Honestly? She thinks Gollum is delightful

[plan-d-to-i]

Just saw a post that said “Nie Mingjue is what Jiang Cheng's stans like to pretend he is, gruff and rude on the outside, but utterly doting on his little brother.”

The post wasn’t mainly about this point, but the line caught my attention. Given your own thoughts about JC and his stans, I was curious to know your thoughts on this assertion.

I think not even the most fanon version of jc is good enough to compare to NMJ (and I by no means think NMJ was perfect). Also I don't know that NMJ is "rude" to NHS, except when the music is already affecting his mind and he burns his possessions. (Not in the way jiang cheng perpetually puts down WWX's actual talent). Neither is he doting. Usually he's just very gruff and strict. Because he cares about NHS and is concerned for his future safety. He's trying to shield him from the knowledge that he's getting sick, and prepare him for the eventuality that he may have to have to lead, so there's a purpose to his demands, that NHS is unaware of. Fanon jc just throws the same tantrums at WWX but everyone calls it a love language. Like it doesn't tangibly change anything about his actions or intentions just the way they're perceived.

One of NMJ's defining traits is that he tends to apply the same inflexible, impossibly high standards to himself that he does to others. That's pretty much the opposite of jc...who's like "WWX u owe my father me forever but also I'm not going to repay my debt to the Wens bc it's not sparking joy 4 me." Fanon jc is even more wimpy, needy, weak and yet somehow a victim of all the ppl he victimized.

NMJ was clashing with Jin Guangshan over the post of Chief Cultivator over Xue Yang... meanwhile jc was lapping up JGS's words about how WWX sucks and should be put in his place. While fanon jc was just so powerless! He had even less power than Mianmian according to his stans! 😆🤡 And WWX also was powerless! So powerless:

Nie MingJue frowned, “Isn’t Jiangling still in the hands of the Wen-dogs?”

Lan XiChen, “Not since a few days ago. Currently, it is in the hands of the YunmengJiang Sect.”

A sect leader spoke, “Sect Leader Nie, I don’t think you’ve heard yet. Yunmeng’s Sect Leader Jiang is quite powerful in the area.”

Another person added, “How can he not be? Wei WuXian alone can face millions, so who’d he be scared of? He can just sit there controlling his area, unlike how we’re always running for our lives. With such luck…”

So weak! jc treating his right hand man better deffs wouldn't have made others simply accept YunmengJiang was repaying a debt and there's no reason to jump in some boiling water again after everyone was already exhausted fighting the big ass war! jc had nO chOiCe!! lol Oh wait...

… Back then, the LanlingJin Sect, the QingheNie Sect, and the GusuLan Sect had already finished fighting over the biggest share. The rest could only get some small shrimps. You, on the other hand, had just rebuilt Lotus Pier and behind you was the YiLing Patriarch, Wei WuXian, the danger of whom was immeasurable. Do you think the other sects would like to see a young sect leader who was so advantaged? Luckily, you didn’t seem to be on good terms with your shixiong, and since everyone thought there was an opportunity, of course they’d add fuels to your fire if they could. No matter what, to weaken the YunmengJiang Sect was to strengthen themselves. Sect Leader Jiang, if only your attitude towards your shixiong was just a bit better, showing everyone that your bond was too strong to be broken for them to have a chance, or if you exhibited just a bit more tolerance after what happened, things wouldn’t have become what they were.

Yeah Idk hard call Ig. Leaving WWX with no other recourse but to defect and then declaring him the enemy of the cultivation world after visiting the BM thereby confirming everyone's worst fear was probably the more strategic solution jc devised to help.

Anyway back to NMJ. For all of NMJ's hot headedness and Wen Hate, I don't see him hiding that people saved his life, or ignoring a debt. Even when he wanted to kill JGY he was going to kill himself because JGY had saved him! And he wanted to kill JGY bc JGY had killed his men! In front of him! And trash talked his father! Wen Ning's disciples hadn't killed anyone in Lotus Pier. He just saved jiang cheng's life and returned the bodies of his parents...

[madtomedgar]

I’m sure you’ve answered some version of this before but what do you think of NMJ and NHS?

i have a tag called "every day i lose more respect for nie mingjue" so that should... tell you a lot and be a useful way to figure it out.

For Reasons, the way that nmj refuses to handle his own explosive rage, and makes it everyone else's problem, including people he can and will very much hurt or kill in said rage, makes me see red. It is a dynamic I am very familiar with irl, and I cannot stand people who know that they are prone to explosive, violent rage and respond by saying "well just don't piss me off by misbehaving, and you won't have anything to worry about." Especially when this person's very existence can sometimes piss them off! I think it's worth noting that he never, not once, apologizes for hurting or trying to kill Jin Guangyao, even the time that Meng Yao was spying for their side, saved his life, and won the war for them! He never admits to being in the wrong because, imo, he sees himself as just, virtuous, and upright, and therefore he and his actions and opinions are always just, virtuous, and upright. Any disagreement is evil and deserves whatever it gets. I hate that! I will grant that novel nmj has good cause to distrust jgy, after the suicide fake-out, but cql nmj doesn't, as I've posted about before. There are things about the character and the dynamic and the purpose he serves in the narrative that are interesting, sympathetic, tragic, etc, and if I can suspend my disbelief I can enjoy the kinder gentler nmj of fanon, but overall, not a fan.

For nhs. It's worse. I find his arc, the way he dedicates his whole life to avenging someone who he didn't get along with and didn't treat him very well to assuage his guilt over not being a better brother and having been close to jgy, and possibly to give himself an excuse for sucking as a sect leader, and then winding up with nothing but a deeply unsatisfying revenge in the end, interesting and compelling. But overall i find nhs to be spoiled, self-centered, callous, and childish. his total disregard for the very real lives of anyone (including the people who rely on the nie sect for protection, who he neglects to further his personal vendetta!) in favor of avenging his brother, who is dead, is not a point in his favor imo. the way people handwring about his innocence, when he is the same age as: meng yao, who has an adult job, wei wuxian, jiang cheng, and lan wangji, who fight in a gruesome war, and older than wen ning, drives me nuts. you never see anyone worrying about their innocence, but poor nhs, as an adult, loses one family member (who was actively dying already!) and it's the worst thing that ever happened to anyone. Overall I think he has a lot in common with Xue "the finger was mine, the lives were other people's" Yang than most people want to admit. Except I get why Xue Yang is like that. In NHS's case it just feels like a spoiled rich kid who genuinely believes his life and his sorrow and his anger are more important than the lives of anyone below him or not part of his family. And that is not something I find terribly likeable or interesting. I am again able to suspend my disbelief to enjoy fanon nhs in fic sometimes, and I enjoy the "what ifs" of aus where nhs's personal development takes a different path, but again... overall not positive, sorry.

[greenandhazy]

god I was writing an absolute novel in the tags so—

Okay I’ve been thinking a lot about Nie cultivation lately b/c of fic reasons, and here’s the big thing for me: I think qi deviations are not as widespread or as early for the Nie as fanon tends to think. The MAIN reason I think this is that the gory details of saber cultivation are a secret THAT IS CAPABLE OF BEING KEPT. Nie Mingjue keeps the details a secret from Huaisang; the entire damn sect keeps the details a secret from the rest of the sects. If every recorded Nie sect leader in history was dropping dead at age 30, the former would not be possible; if random Nie cultivators were constantly at risk of going on murderous rampages, the latter would not be possible.

Furthermore, I just don’t think it would be sustainable? Like, setting aside the social benefits of cultivation, it’s supposed to be good for you! The end goal is supposed to be immortality! If anyone who takes the saber cultivation path is automatically signing themselves up for a painful, early death and also putting themselves at risk for having soul-calming rituals not work, it’s hard to believe the Nie sect would have any recruits at all. Sure, Nie Mingjue was basically born into a suicide pact and sticks with it, but I don’t think we can just say the same is true for all Nie cultivators. (With the caveat that the soul-calming thing may not come up regularly, so people wouldn’t necessarily know, and also not every cultivator would necessarily have that ritual done, but still.)

We also don’t have much to support that view in canon. We only know the approximate ages of two Nie sect leaders at the time of death—Nie Sr must have been around 40, NMJr (typo but I’m keeping it) closer to 30. But that’s not helpful when it comes to guesses, because we know for a fact that BOTH of their deaths were hastened by outside factors.

My personal headcanon is that qi deviations are more of a threat to, say, the top 2% of all saber cultivators, and that sect leaders generally are the strongest cultivators, hence the trend. As to why NMJ’s death seemed more… imminent… I generally attribute it to 1) him being an unusually powerful cultivator, 2) him becoming powerful unusually early in life, and 3) in CQL canon, where Wen Ruohan is a demonic cultivator, fighting an unusually high number of ghosts/demons, which react with sabers differently than other weapons and therefore enhances the danger of qi deviations. I recognize the canon support for these reasons is fairly slim, but that’s how I rationalize it.

Having said that, I voted for a combination of the above, because I think that if Song of Turmoil was explicitly meant to prey on an existing weakness in NMJ’s qi due to his saber cultivation, I think it makes sense for a similar thing to be going on when it comes to his soul.

because Qinghe Nie is the most haunted and thus most interesting sect and I love hearing what people do with the bits of worldbuilding we have for it...

[thatswhatsushesaid]

/exhales

the main reason i just can't get onboard with n!eyao is probably the same reason i'm never going to be able to get on with tgcf's beefle@f: the way their dynamic is described in the fanon discourse--which, to be clear, is something i would absolutely be feral for--is just. not. remotely reflective of what is actually going on in the source material.

i'm sorry!! i'm a buzzkill, i know!! please don't @ me with "if you're just interested in what happens in canon, then why are you reading fan fiction or looking at fanart" because i promise you i have been @'d with this before, i have been lectured and condescended to PLENTY of times on this point, i'm immune to it. i am absolutely here for transformative works, and i've even described in the past the few ways i *could* get onboard with (mainly cql-canon) n!eyao. an examination of the one-sided psychosexual obsession of it all on nmj's part, for example, is actually hanging out in my drafts folder right now, i just need to summon up the energy (and the interest lbr) to finish it and smash post.

but the essential components of what makes a ship interesting to me--the mutual interest in each other, the emotional attachment that makes them seek each other out simply because it is what they want to do, the text-based evidence of a relationship--that just... is not there. i wish it was! but it isn't.

[admirableadmiranda]

NMJ and his morality kills me because his whole thing with WQ was that she never stood up to WRH but he didn't either? He knew he caused his father's death and instead of trying to do something about it, he doesn't. He bites his tongue and goes along with the Wens, never doing anything to get justice for his father. And he has the gall to act like WQ was in the wrong for not standing up and not even considering why she might not do so when he himself had his own reasons for not doing anything before the war. NMJ was in a position of power that WQ didn't have and she was related to WRH, however distantly. NMJ is part of a different sect and has a form of protection because of it for himself and his family and WQ doesn't have that as part of the Wen sect. Her and her family is easily accessible if WRH wants to do something to them, not to mention he has a whole torture palace. I could go on but his morality has double standards and it kills me

You are completely right, Anon, and it is part of why I really don't like him much! He has white and black thinking, morality where what he agrees with is good and what he doesn't is bad, and holds others to much higher standards. Jin Guangyao does manage one good slap down against him that I very much appreciate even though he is definitely the worse of the two. He asks Nie Mingjue what makes the deaths he has caused so acceptable compared to Jin Guangyao's, and while I don't think he meant it the way I take it, it really does lay out how much of a hypocrite Nie Mingjue is. Any deaths he causes are acceptable and he can mete when someone deserves death, but no one else has that privilege in his eyes.

Before anyone comes in yelling about me being a Jin Guangyao stan, I don't mean that his killing is okay, I mean that I highly doubt that every death on Nie Mingjue's hand is above reproach, and that if we got to see who he felt deserved to die at his hands, he might end up in the same bin as the antagonists.

In addition, he is also a very angry, intimidating person to pretty much everyone. Only Nie Huaisang really escapes his anger and as he grows closer to qi deviation, even that fades. I find him more tolerable as a mindless rage corpse going around attempting to kill everyone than I do as a living man and that says something.

I don't mind fanon Nie Mingjue so much as long as he's relegated to proper aus. No War Aus are the closest I can get to tolerating him in a canon setting and that is because I do think the worst of his troubles would be tempered with no war on the horizon. But in universe, I don't find him particularly pleasant. I agree with the girls at the Phoenix Mountain, I would be rather scared of him.

Thanks for the ask, Anon!

[songofclarity]

There seems to be a universal fanon that NMJ is Uber-privileged but his story is more like a class and a disability narrative. His ancestors were butchers, a historically marginalized group, & qi deviation is a physiological condition. It’s probably the reason the Nie are a bit more accepting of ppl regardless of background & it parallels the way XXC tried to build a sect with a similar mindset. Also XXC is initially sympathetic to XY for his youth just as NMJ is to MY for his humble origins.

I just have to laugh at this point when fanon try to twist Nie Mingjue into some uber-privileged leader who is responsible for everything (and then go around to blame him for the state of the world as if he were the Avatar who failed) when half our cast are made up of the exact same social class as him. His position as sect leader is rather moot in the scope of things when the people he's working with are also sect leaders, sect leader heirs, and famous young masters, none of whom are exactly under his authority lol

I'd say his story is more of a "no good deed goes unpunished" narrative. His potential illness wasn't anything of consequence until Jin Guangyao began to take advantage of him and poison him. Nie Mingjue himself doesn't seem to recognize class or treat it as all that important. Nie Mingjue makes it very clear, again and again, that he appreciates and acknowledges the person as they are and how they can do good works, regardless of their origins. And you're right about the Nie being more accepting. The Nie don't seem to have an actual issue with Meng Yao even if they find Jin family drama as amusing conversation. Meng Yao went to collect water for them and they don't seem to be bothered by him doing so, which is more than the guests (not of the Nie) who refuse the tea he pours later on.

And absolutely I agree that Xiao Xingchen is the same as Nie Mingjue in this regard. Xue Yang is a child when Xiao Xingchen first meets him. He's a delinquent now and very rough around the edges, but the upstanding Liangfang-zun is there to guide him now in the Jin Sect, so surely he will be raised properly from now. :) Xiao Xingchen doesn't fault Xue Yang for his birth, but he can't excuse him for the deadly path he later chooses, just like Nie Mingjue can't make excuses for Jin Guangyao in the same way Lan Xichen does.

Which also gives us a nature vs nurture narrative.

[vrishchikawrites]

how do you feel about the whole martial siblings romance take on jc and wwx? I've just gotten into the fandom and the amount of jc stans who put lwj down and pretend that cutting lwj out of mdzs would somehow give us the same story is delusional at best???

I think my opinion on anything involving fanon JC is clear. I don't think there's any romance between the two or even a potential of one. Yes, JC and LWJ foil each other but JC and WWX don't read as romantic relationships to me.

LWJ is an essential part of MDZS. Without him, LSZ won't be alive, JGY wouldn't have been defeated, WWX wouldn't be able to resolve th mystery of NMJ, if JC doesn't manage to kill him within the first few days, that is.

Essentially, there is no MDZS without LWJ.

[jiang-cheng-therapy]

*sigh*

I want to be more circumspect about the tenor of posts I reblog on here because I don't want to get caught up in a "jiang cheng!! 😍🥰😘 never wrong! only uwu trauma!" bubble

However, it seems like very few people can have nuanced opinions on him, esp when it comes to negative opinions - I've never seen someone be like "yeah, I just don't really like him, he's not terribly likable" (which I 100% agree with haha). It's usually all, "he's really the worst and just terrible" often with an implicit or explicit side of "you are terrible/stupid/deluded if you do like him and all the rest of us who don't are talking about the *real, canon* character while the one you like is pure fanon" (which side is the more damaging tbh). It's the lack of respect that's the issue.

Having an opinion that he's just the worst because of stuff he's done and how he is I can respect! I might disagree but there's no problem with that whatsoever. We need differing opinions! But you tag it with c*non jiang cheng and ant* jiang cheng and gr*peh*te...that bleeds into the implicitly condescending territory. I've read valuable, good meta from ppl with negative opinions of JC that use these tags - and then I proceed to block them because I know that the more extreme actual haters will interact with that post too and I don't want to see that.

I saw a post recently I partially agreed with: they said (pardon me if I get this wrong I don't want to misquote them but I already blocked them and don't remember their tumblr handle): JC isn't traumatized (disagree: while he does self-victimize and interpet everything as a slight to him when often it's not even about him, he is literally also a victim of trauma...losing his *whole family* and becoming responsible for a whole sect at the ripe age of like y'know around 17); that his responses were not normal trauma responses (disagree with the caveat that's not my area so I can't tell you what "normal" trauma responses are but his responses are still very human - never said they were good! Just human); and that he is self-centered and self-victimizing (agree!).

The issue with this post was it used the canon jiang cheng tag and I'm like whyyyyy...doing that even if just so you know JC fans will not interact or will block creates as much of an echo chamber as the other way around! Bc this person said these things in a totally reasonable way without (IIRC) bashing people who do like him, and U would've liked to just have that moment without it being spoiled by a dumb tag.

Is JC self centered? Yes. Is he responsible for his actions? Yes. Is he traumatized? Big yes. Does his trauma excuse any of his actions that are bad/evil or his personality? No. But do his actions/personality deserve the SAME nuance and contextualization that we give to WWX, LWJ, LXC, JGY, NMJ, etc? You bet your ass they do. You can't contextualize characters and only refuse to do so for the one you don't like.

Do you have to like him? Not all. Please, dislike away! Just don't pretend that not liking him gives you some moral high ground.

That's what I get for clicking on the jiang cheng tag today. I don't want to make lots of posts like this. I don't want to be angry about discourse surrounding a damn fictional character. I want to keep this blog as nuanced and as positive as possible: not by never posting differing opinions or never posting criticism of JC, but by reblogging content that is respectful to both sides (which is hard to do when so many people who are more critical are also disrespectful!)

I'm sure I've erred on the side of disrespecting people who disagree with me, to an extent, and I want to mitigate that. But golly gee does this feel like the stupidest "us vs them" kind of fight.