#s4 talk

[marjansmarwani]

I'm personally very interested in your take on why people are reacting the way they are. I've got my own "theories" and have had them since this secret was first theorized and was wondering if there was any overlap in the way we thought about it

It's really not that complicated: people love Carlos and therefore he can do no wrong. Which makes him actually doing wrong hard to swallow -- it's a steep fall from a pedestal.

I've touched on this before and I know I am not the only one, but Carlos is the fandom darling. But up to this point, he has really only been barely 3 dimensional. We don't hardly anything about his past, we don't know much about his flaws. To this point, the biggest flaw we've seen is his anxiety. We've never really seen him mess up before and I don't think people know how to process that.

Don't get me wrong, I also love Carlos and I also think this was a stupid plot choice. If they wanted to reintroduce Iris I can think of about 1078 different ways to do that. But at the same time, I am enjoying the opportunity to see more of Carlos and to see him grow. As @doublel27 said in a post a bit ago, it's Carlos's season to grow, TK's been growing for 3 seasons. And if that's their goal they gave us a hell of a jumping-off point.

It was still sloppy writing though, on that I 1000% agree.

[reyesstrand]

From what I can see, the people who feel that Carlos's character was ruined are either people who didn't like the Iris storyline (which I can understand) or people who've spent so long saying that TK sucks and Carlos deserves better but couldn't say anything at the start of this season bc now Carlos was the one that messed up. Either way, while I get annoyed at people hating on TK, I've really enjoyed this season even through moments where the writing wasn't great

as i and others have said, there’s a way for the two thought processes of ooh that writing was rushed and sloppy and i really enjoyed the bulk of this season to coexist. and!! it’s possible for that enjoyment to be genuine. i just….i don’t know how to word this. but we’ve come to accept that ignoring elements of this show is par for the course. this has happened with the timeline, with questionable character choices early on, etc, so i find putting aside small issues like the iris plot complicating s1 carlos’ reaction to iris being missing and tk being so close to the reyes family that he probably would’ve found out sooner easy if it means i get to appreciate how much this storyline added to carlos. he’s had his “sassy” moments from s1 on and loved for it, and that’s only been accelerated this season and shown further that his jokes are a deflecting technique as a trauma response. he’s been burdened by this weight of internalized homophobia and complicated ideals around masculinity for his whole life, and to me that makes everything in hindsight that much more nuanced and that much more hopeful, that he got the happy ending he did. plus….iris is fun. iris’s moments in episode three made me cry. not everyone has to like her but i implore people to respect her and the fans watching who may have close connection to mental illness/family with mental illness, and i think it’s nice to know that carlos had her back and she’s had his back since they were kids. that’s an element this season gave us that makes me warm.

at the end of the day everyone watches this show (and anything really) with their own subjective view of what’s “good” and what’s “bad,” but something i’ve found helped me specifically with lone star and specifically with tarlos is thinking that like…..no matter how i would’ve reacted to certain things, carlos always chooses tk and tk always chooses carlos. they make each other happy, they love each other more than anything. we’re watching a fictional couple in a fictional world, and the creators’ job through the seasons is to expand on them more. i like that neither of their trauma responses are necessarily palatable, i like that they’re real, i like that they come home to each other every day and they fight to come home to each other. i do genuinely feel for people who feel disappointed by elements of this season, i really really do. i’ve been close to it. but it makes me wonder why the season they’ve made carlos a Person with the most screen time behind owen is the season he’s ruined because they’ve gone about his story in a way that doesn’t match certain ideals.

[wojtekaneko]

That's how it went

[natureismynature]

Here's a list of things I liked in s4 because I need more than one morbidly beautiful opening shot to give me a purpose in life:

Confirmation that Ben and Viktor were close as children

Proof that Ben's always had a mean streak in him, the brainwashing just made him seem like a saint

The concept of the time subway

Five's Deli

That scene with Diego spinning in the air with bullets swirling around him

Jennifer having a Filipina actress

Diego and Lila's daughter being named Grace

Klaus practically being Claire's other parent

Luther embracing the silly

Gene and Jean

[ssaraexposs]

They are looking at the same person

[mindlessmedic]

Daisy and Jon are best friends, to me

(original under the cut)

[twobraincells-art]

Brisket Five would have beat the crap out of S4 Five (and Steve Blackman <3)

[hannibalruinedme]

How do I sleep knowing this? ^^^^^

For God's sake :)

[steddiealltheway]

One thing that sucks about fighting monsters from some weirdly dusty and gooey parallel universe to your own… is going back to school. Specifically going back after telling all your friends that they’re actually trust fund assholes and your girlfriend - ex-girlfriend - ends up with the one guy she swore up and down was just a friend.

Not that Steve really blames Nancy for that. Jonathan’s a good dude. Plus, it’s not like Steve was the perfect boyfriend or anything. He tried, but maybe it just wasn’t enough.

Maybe it’ll never be enough.

Steve takes a sudden right, making a detour from all the student rushing into the lunchroom in favor of being anywhere but there. He barely registers walking out of the school until he notices the woods in front of him. Why does everything always lead him back to here?

He doesn’t know why, maybe it’s what Dustin call his “mother hen” instinct, but Steve continues walking into the woods, wondering if maybe there are more monsters lurking about that he can spot early this time. God knows he would do anything for those kids - not that he would tell them that. Dustin especially does not need the ego boost.

So Steve wanders, listening closely for any unusual noise.

And then he hears one.

It’s just the thud of something metal sounding against maybe… a tree? Something solid. Then a crunch of leaves. And…

Singing?

Steve slowly peaks around a tree and finds the source of all the noise.

Eddie Munson.

Steve nearly rolls his eyes but finds himself fondly watching the boy as he drums on a wooden picnic table singing some song Steve has never heard. It’s when Eddie does some type of ridiculously uncoordinated twirl that Steve ends up snorting. It’s loud enough that Eddie ends up hearing it, startling mid turn and head bang that has him misstepping and landing right on his ass.

Steve tries to let some sheepishness bleed through the amusement in his expression. “You okay, man?” He asks, stepping forward to offer him a hand.

Eddie eyes it wearily. “Depends. What are you doing out here?”

“Just…” Steve stares at Eddie for a moment, trying to find a normal answer, but instead he shrugs and sighs, “I don’t know, man.” He takes another step closer and pointedly looks down at his offered hand.

Eddie narrows his eyes at him before taking it carefully. Steve is caught off guard by the cold metal rings but hauls Eddie up easily who wobbles when he gets to his feet. “Thanks,” Eddie breathes out, lingering in Steve’s space.

Steve just nods and wonders if Eddie Munson’s eyes have always been so big and brown.

“So, Steve Harrington,” Eddie starts, drawling out his name while taking a step back and brushing dirt off his pants, “To what do I owe the pleasure?”

Steve raises an eyebrow.

Eddie marches over to the picnic table and gestures dramatically at his lunch box. “I’m assuming you’re here for the goods?”

“The what?”

“Drugs, Harrington. Are you alright?” Eddie asks with a tilt of his head leaning forward as if assessing him.

Steve shrugs. “Fine. And no. I’m not here for your drugs which you evidently keep in your lunch box for any teacher to find.” Eddie’s brows furrow. Steve rolls his eyes. “I know you sell, but Tommy usually does this part.”

“I know,” Eddie replies as he hops up on the bench and crosses his arms. He faces Steve and bends at the waist - Steve ignores the urge to reach out and steady him so he doesn’t fall again. “So what are you doing out here? Are you here to… beat me up?” Eddie asks dramatically, hopping onto the table and pretending to brandish a sword.

Steve simply raises his eyebrows and crosses his arms.

Eddie’s arms drop. “Okay. Surprising but I guess you would’ve already taken a swing if you wanted a fight.” He squats down on the table until he’s eye level with Steve. “You’re not here because of the rumors, right?” Eddie asks, dropping his voice and appearing weirdly serious.

As for the rumors, Steve’s sure he’s heard more than he can count - including one about Munson being a vampire - so he’s not sure what he’s talking about. He’s also not sure if he wants to know which rumors he’s talking about. Steve runs a hand through his hair and settles his hands on his hips. “I just needed to clear my head. I didn’t know you were out here.”

Eddie squints at him. “You’re clearing your head by taking a walk in the woods?”

“Yes.”

They hold eye contacts for a few moments, and Steve can’t really tell what they’re silently sizing each other up about. Eddie reluctantly stands up and jumps off the table. “Fine. What are you clearing your head about?”

Steve stares at him.

“What?”

“Why do you want to know?”

Eddie steps closer to him and obnoxiously twirls a piece of hair around his finger. “Because you’re Steve Harrington, and I must be the luckiest guy in all of Hawkins since I’ve got you here alone with me.”

Steve laughs loudly and gently shoves Eddie away. “Shut up.”

Eddie’s cheeks flush pink, and Steve can almost see him biting back the words “make me.” Then he’s reminded of the rumor that Eddie bats for the other team, and Steve suddenly wonders if it’s true - not that he would mind.

Steve pushes the thought away as Eddie smiles sincerely and pushes some hair in front of his face. “Maybe I wouldn’t mind the company. Plus,” he turns and sprawls back on the picnic bench, “You can tell me anything. I’m great at keeping secrets, and even if I wasn’t, it would be your word against mine.”

Steve considers what he’s said before asking, “And how crazy of a secret would you not only keep but believe?”

Eddie smiles almost manically. “Try me.”

Steve looks around wondering if the government people or whoever they were can hear him out here. He’s not sure if it’s been long enough to guarantee there’s not someone keep track of each of them, waiting for them to slip up. He also wonders how cruel it would be to unload all of this onto Eddie. Steve knows life was much simpler before he knew that demogorgans existed.

“I’ve been fighting… some monsters recently,” Steve settles on, hoping Eddie doesn’t take it so literally.

“Yeah?”

Steve nods and takes a step closer to where Eddie is sitting, gesturing at nothing as he continues, “It started when I was an asshole to Nance and then she ran off with Jonathan and the rest is history there but… they really dragged me into some heavy shit.”

“I can imagine. It’s not every day that your girlfriend runs off with another guy. Which is a shitty thing to do by the way.”

Steve tries to steer the conversation away from his failed relationship without setting off Eddie’s alarm bells. “It’s not that I really blame them. I mean you’ve seen them, everyone has, they’re kind of made for each other. Who am I to get in the way of that? Especially since I was a shitty boyfriend. But that’s not the point. Before Nance left, I was pulled into helping some…” he pauses, trying to think of a way to talk about the kids out of context without sounding like a creep. “Well, there was this guy who needed help and so… I helped him and his friends out.”

Eddie fixes him with a carefully blank look. “Helped this guy out… how exactly?”

Steve shrugs and sits next to Eddie as he figures out how to phrase things. “He… well. His cat… di- escaped! It escaped. And I was helping him find it, and we actually grew pretty close.”

Eddie knocks his knee against Steve’s. “So… you and this guy grew… close.”

Steve nods and smiles. “Yeah, he’s this dumbass genius k-,” he cuts himself off before he can say kid. “Anyways, then his friends needed help, and I helped them fight… their monsters.”

Eddie raises his eyebrows at him. “So you helped… multiple guys… fight their… monsters?”

Steve nods. “Yeah. But that’s over and now I have to go back here and pretend that none of that ever happened. It just… sucks, man.”

Eddie nods. “Uh. Yeah. I can imagine pretending for so long is... exhausting.”

“Tell me about it,” Steve says with a laugh.

A silence falls between them and Eddie glances over at him. “You know… you don’t have to pretend with me.”

Steve smiles and wonders what not pretending means now, but it’s sounds good nonetheless. “Yeah, I think I’d like that.”

Eddie softly smiles and his eyes move down to Steve’s lips slowly. “Yeah?”

And oh. Oh. There was definitely a miscommunication somewhere along the way. And… okay. Fighting monsters and helping guys fight their monsters is maybe not the best phrasing. But Steve thinks he likes Eddie remaining so blissfully ignorant.

So, Steve kisses him.

And yeah. Maybe there are quite literally hundreds of different ways he could’ve let Eddie remain oblivious to the whole vague Upside Down retelling, but Steve can’t really complain when Eddie kisses him back, finding the scrape of stubble against his face surprisingly pleasant.

And Steve finds himself taking his time thoroughly allowing Eddie to believe this story that Steve wishes were true rather than the real thing. It’s only when Eddie’s watch beeps that they finally pull away for longer than a few seconds.

“Shit,” Eddie mumbles, resting his forehead against Steve’s, “Time to head back in.”

“Can’t skip?” Steve asks, wondering why he’s trying so hard to solidify his false story.

Eddie sighs and pulls away. “Unfortunately, if I skip anymore, they’re not going to let me graduate. Although right now I think spending more time with you might be more important than my diploma.”

Steve laughs and feels himself pleasantly flushing. He nudges Eddie’s shoulder with his own before standing up and offering his hand to him again. “Come on. We can’t have you not graduating again.”

“Again? Harrington, are you keeping tabs on me?”

Steve raises his eyebrows at him as Eddie takes his hand and pulls himself off the bench. “And what if I am?” He flirts easily.

Eddie smiles giddily and grabs his lunch box. “Then I really must be the luckiest boy in Hawkins.”

Steve doesn’t say anything when Eddie doesn’t let go of his hand as they walk out of the woods toward the school. It’s only as the school slowly comes into sight that Eddie drops Steve’s hand and shoves his hands into his pockets. He stops in his tracks and turns to Steve. “Hey, thanks for not pretending with me.”

Steve glances at the school before moving in to give Eddie one final kiss. He lingers in it before breaking away to say, “Thank you for listening.”

They wordlessly separate as the head back to the building, knowing that even with the few weeks of school left and both of their tarnished reputations that they can’t truly risk it all.

As Steve makes it to his class just before the final bell rings, he’s left to wonder if maybe he really does have some other type of monsters to fight. And he really hopes Eddie Munson can be there to help him with those ones again.

[gammija]

tiefling jon's first day at the Archives

[marjansmarwani]

I think for me it would’ve played better (I mean if we’re just ignoring the plot holes here for a second lmao) if tk had had some space to be upset (or Carlos had been more concerned about tk rather than iris lol). Like when tk fucked up majorly, Carlos got to be mad and tk felt horrible. (The optimistic part of me wonders if they’re gonna have tk have an outburst later, say, right before something happens to Carlos?)

I would assume there is time for that with Iris bing in the next episode and I do hear what you are saying and it’s valid. I went into it more in an earlier post, but I actually like that he didn’t. Yes he fully deserves to be more hurt by it and yes maybe that will surface later, but I like that he deflated when he saw how upset Carlos was. To me that shows that no matter what Carlos is his priority. It also showed me that there has been a lot of healthy growth: he never doubts that Carlos loves him. He never doubts that he loves Carlos. He is angry (rightfully so), but then Carlos needs him so he’s not. I think it just shows how healthy they are as a couple. I wrote a post last year about how Lone Star always makes the relationship drama come from an external source and I think this is walking a fine line (and it’s definitely not one of their strongest plot points), but I think this comes from the same place: there is no doubt that they love each other. They just need to face this and they will, together.

[reyesstrand]

So I’m not someone who thinks Carlos’s character was “ruined” by season 4… but I do also think that if we’re going to talk about how the season added depth and nuance to his character it also needs to be addressed that it was done in a way in which he was given flaws and made mistakes while not growing or learning from them. He was still hiding things and lying in the very last episode of the season and he had no consequences for any of his mistakes this season (unless you want to count now having a lizard son as a peace offering after not communicating properly 😂). And my complaint about this is 100% aimed at the writing, not the character. I loved that they gave him plots and screen time and flaws and depth and friends outside of TK and more background with his family… but he didn’t show growth as a result of those flaws at all and that bothers me.

so yeah like, i think a lot of this comes from the fact they made this the carlos season (no complaints sjfnskdn) and kind of overlayed tons of issues in one condensed season. but if you think about things like the deflection, the jokes, etc…these are all trauma responses that have been there since what? early season two? and do i think they should’ve shown him maybe having a chat with tk where he apologizes for lying? yeah. there were many moments where they could’ve shown them talking, but we’ve accepted that they have lives off-screen and talk off-screen as they have for the duration of the show. episode three alone, carlos says that they talked about giving iris time. we didn’t see that, but we go off that as the foundation for both of their reactions to iris going missing again. i also think the scenes we did get with them communicating (end of 4x02, 4x12, 4x16 etc etc) show that they’ve grown in that department, and even if it isn’t happening on screen……..it is happening. he’s initiated his fair share of the conversations. the process of growth is non-linear and we might have to sit with the uncomfortable humanness of it all. i really don’t know.

i can say that i have my own problems with the writing this season. i agree a lot of this happened all at once, and that the iris storyline was rushed, and even some non-tarlos storylines were a little sloppy, but i can also say that i enjoyed the way that grief on this show is not linear, recovery on this show is not linear, grappling with trauma is not linear. learning from past mistakes is not something that’s easily said and done. we see this in tk we see this in marjan we see this in paul we see this in judd we see this in tommy we see this in grace we see this in owen and we see this in carlos. we never on-screen saw carlos’ trauma as it happened pre-show, but we’re seeing it naturally come out as he’s grown comfortable in his life. but i still focus on the enjoyment the show brings me.

re the finale…..i think it does fit in character, and maybe that’s annoying!!! maybe that’s something they’ll deal with next season!!!! but him not telling tk because he’s literally become consumed by his grief over hearing his father die over the phone and his mother’s screams and finding out he’s been murdered….idk like he’s acting human. he doesn’t want to hurt anyone else further and sees himself as nothing but a vessel of anger and desire for revenge (again…something i think they could and should touch on next season). he acted similarly in 3x11 after he and grace were used as weapons. and tk being the one to see this in him and carlos coming home to him afterward and talking it through brings the humanity back. i agree with the points being made in general (not just you anon) about him acting violently in the finale but i also cannot blame him because he is so shrouded in grief and i think we can give him some leeway for distancing himself from tk and not wanting to talk about things. that’ll likely be touched on next season. maybe i’ll be proven wrong and it won’t be but….idk. it’s just how i could give tk some leeway for wanting to steal fentanyl from his workplace after his mom died and not telling carlos or his dad the truth until he and his dad are literally potentially facing death in a depressurized airplane. grief acts in mysterious ways and grief is such a singular, personal experience that i can’t find myself upset about a lack of growth when the whole season he was acting out of responses to pre-show trauma and the end of the season he’s faced with such a brutality. just let them all take a nap in season 5 ajdnskdns

[sublimeinal-messages]

I don’t know who needs to hear this right now, but you’re not a bad person for seeking happiness after the abuse you suffered, and your life has value just by existing. Full stop. No negotiation. You do not need to atone for the ‘crime’ of being born

[natureismynature]

Ok despite everything that went to shit, we can all agree that this shot was pure art right?

[fifthnailinstevesbat]

steve “cant get out of bed till middle of the day, barely leaves his house or is never home, isolating himself from everyone, never takes time for himself anymore, depressed and is slowly losing more and more of himself every single day” harrington post 1986’

robin “i know you loved her, and it must’ve killed that she wouldn’t take you back, but nancy is happy steve and she still loves you. she’s not the only one out there for you, and you’ve gotta get over it. we miss you” buckley post 1986’, trying to help her best friend

steve “…this isn’t about nancy” harrington.

robin “wha-?… oh. oh steve.” buckley.

he still wears the vest.

[confinesofmy]

the funniest thing about tom wambsgans winning succession is that he literally can't hack it. he's going to die of a heart attack in the next five years, like his body and mind literally cannot take the stress. he's gonna be on his deathbed wishing he had just gone back to fucking minnesota.