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shkspr · 3 years ago

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hi. on your post where you may or may not have ended on 'moffat is either your angel or your devil' did you have maybe an elaboration on that somewhere that i could possibly hear about. i'm very much a capaldi era stan and i've never tried to defend the matt smith era even though it had delightful moments sometimes so i wonder where that puts me. i'd love to hear your perspective on moffat as a person with your political perspective. -nicole

hi ok sorry i took so long to respond to this but i dont think you know how LOADED this question is for me but i am so happy to elaborate on that for you. first a few grains of salt to flavor your understanding of the whole situation: a. im unfairly biased against moffat bc im a davies stan and a tennant stan; b. i still very much enjoy and appreciate moffat era who for many reasons; and c. i hate moffat on a personal level far more than i could ever hate his work.

the thing is that its all always gonna be a bit mixed up bc i have to say a bunch of seemingly contradictory things in a row. for instance, a few moffat episodes are some of my absolute favorites of the rtd era, AND the show went way downhill when moffat took over, AND the really good episodes he wrote during the rtd era contained the seeds of his destruction.

like i made that post about the empty child/the doctor dances and it holds true for blink and thats about it bc the girl in the fireplace and silence in the library/forest of the dead are good but not nearly on the same level, and despite the fact that i like them at least nominally, they are also great examples of everything i hate about moffat and how he approached dw as a whole.

basically. doctor who is about people. there are many things about moffats tenure as showrunner that i think are a step up from rtd era who! actual gay people, for one! but i think that can likely be attributed mostly to an evolving Society as opposed to something inherent to him and his work, seeing as rtd is literally gay, and the existence of queer characters in moffats work doesnt mean the existence of good queer characters (ill give him bill but thats it!)

i have a few Primary Grievances with moffat and how he ran dw. all of them are things that got better with capaldi, but didnt go away. they are as follows:

moffat projects his own god complex onto the doctor

rtd era who had a doctor with a god complex. you cant ever be the doctor and not have a god complex. the problem with moffats era specifically is that the god complex was constant and unrepentant and was seen as a fundamental personality trait of the doctor rather than a demon he has to fight. he has the Momence where you feel bad for him, the Momence where he shows his humility or whatever and youre reminded that he doesnt want to be the lonely god, but those are just. moments. in a story where the doctor thinks hes the main character. rtd era doctor was aware that he wasnt the main character. he had to be an authority sometimes and he had to be the loner and he had to be sad about it, but he ultimately understood that he was expendable in a narrative sense.

this is how you get lines like “were the thin fat gay married anglican marines, why would we need names as well?” from the same show that gave you the gut punch moment at the end of midnight when they realize that nobody asked the hostess for her name. and on the one hand, thats a small sticking point, but on the other hand, its just one small example of the simple disregard that moffat has for humanity.

incidentally, this is a huge part of why sherlock sucked so bad: moffats main characters are special bc theyre so much bigger and better than all the normal people, and thats his downfall as a showrunner. he thinks that his audience wants fucking sheldon cooper when what they want is people.

like, ok. think of how many fantastic rtd era eps are based in the scenario “what if the doctor wasnt there? what if he was just out of commission for a bit?” and how those eps are the heart of the show!! bc theyre about people being people!! the thing is that all of the rtd era companions would have died for the doctor but he understood and the story understood that it wasnt about him.

this is like. nine sending rose home to save her life and sacrifice his own vs clara literally metaphysically entwining her existence w the doctor. ten also sending rose with her family to save her life vs river being raised from infancy to be obsessed w the doctor and then falling in love w him. martha leaving bc she values herself enough to make that decision vs amy being treated like a piece of meat.

and this is simultaneously a great callback to when i said that moffats episodes during the rtd era sometimes had the same problems as his show running (bc girl in the fireplace reeks of this), and a great segue into the next grievance.

moffat hates women

he hates women so fucking much. g-d, does steven moffat ever hate women. holy shit, he hates women. especially normal human women who prioritize their normal human lives on an equal or higher level than the doctor. moffat hated rose bc she wasnt special by his standards. the empty child/the doctor dances is the nicest he ever treated her, and she really didnt do much in those eps beyond a fuck ton of flirting.

girl in the fireplace is another shining example of this. youve got rose (who once again has another man to keep her busy, bc moffat doesnt think shes good enough for the doctor) sidelined for no reason only to be saved by the doctor at the last second or whatever. and then youve got reinette, who is pretty and powerful and special!

its just. moffat thinks that the doctor is as shallow and selfish as he is. thats why he thinks the doctor would stay in one place with reinette and not with rose. bc moffat is shallow and sees himself in the doctor and doesnt think he should have to settle for someone boring and normal.

not to mention rose met the doctor as an adult and chose to stay with him whereas reinette is. hm. introduced to the doctor as a child and grows up obsessed with him.

does that sound familiar? it should! bc it is also true of amy and river. and all of them are treated as viable romantic pairings. bc the only women who deserve the doctor are the ones whose entire existence revolves around him. which includes clara as well.

genuinely i think that at least on some level, not even necessarily consciously, that bill was a lesbian in part bc capaldi was too old to appeal to mainstream shippers. like twelve/clara is still a thing but not as universally appealing as eleven/clara but i am just spitballing. but i think they weighed the pros and cons of appealing to the woke crowd over the het shippers and found that gay companion was more profitable. anyway the point is to segue into the next point, which is that moffat hates permanent consequences.

moffat hates permanent consequences

steven moffat does not know how to kill a character. honestly it feels like hes doing it on purpose after a certain point, like he knows he has this habit and hes trying to riff on it to meme his own shit, but it doesnt work. it isnt funny and it isnt harmless, its bad writing.

the end of the doctor dances is so poignant and so meaningful and so fucking good bc its just this once! everybody lives, just this once! and then he does p much the same thing in forest of the dead - this one i could forgive, bc i do think that preserving those peoples consciousnesses did something for the doctor as a character, it wasnt completely meaningless. but everything after that kinda was.

rory died so many times its like. get a hobby lol. amy died at least once iirc but it was all a dream or something. clara died and was erased from the doctors memory. river was in prison and also died. bill? died. all of them sugarcoated or undone or ignored by the narrative to the point of having effectively no impact on the story. the point of a major character death is that its supposed to have a point. and you could argue that a piece of art could be making a point with a pointless death, ie. to put perspective on it and remind you that bad shit just happens, but with moffat the underlying message is always “i can do whatever i want, nothing is permanent or has lasting impact ever.”

basically, with moffat, tragedy exists to be undone. and this was a really brilliant, really wonderful thing in the doctor dances specifically bc it was the doctor clearly having seen his fair share of tragedy that couldnt be helped, now looking on his One Win with pride and delight bc he doesnt get wins like this! and then moffat proceeded to give him the same win over and over and over and over. nobody is ever dead. nobody is ever unable to be saved. and if they are, really truly dead and/or gone, then thats okay bc moffat has decided that [insert mitigating factor here]*

*the mitigating factor is usually some sort of computerized database of souls.

i can hear the moffat stans falling over themselves to remind me that amy and rory definitely died, and they did - after a long and happy life together, they died of old age. i dont consider that a character death any more than any other character choosing to permanently leave the tardis.

and its not just character deaths either, its like, everything. the destruction of gallifrey? never mind lol! character development? scrapped! the same episode four times? lets give it a fifth try and hope nobody notices. bc he doesnt know how to not make the doctor either an omnipotent savior or a self-pitying failure.

it is in nature of doctor who, i believe, for the doctor to win most of the time. like, it wouldnt be a very good show if he didnt win most of the time. but it also wouldnt be a very good show if he won all of the time. my point is that moffats doctor wins too often, and when he doesnt win, it feels empty and hollow rather than genuinely humbling, and you know hes not gonna grow from it pretty much at all.

so like. again, i like all of doctor who i enjoy all of it very much. i just think that steven moffat is a bad show runner and a decent writer at times. and it is frustrating. and im not here to convince or convert anyone im just living my truth. thank you for listening.

#sorry if this is repetitive or makes no sense or if i got some details of the show wrong #i simply couldnt be bothered to put too much effort into this post #lest it become a research paper and take me several weeks to answer #anyway thats all my opinions #dw #ok to rb

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ashdumpsterpile · 3 years ago

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Still thinking about elevenrose being stupid together. The 50thish in the All Your Life and Mine AU. Nine between the times he asked Rose to come with him and Ten in the middle of season 4 seeing them. It's been at least 300 years they have so many stupid little inside jokes. Eleven is vying for Rose's attention the entire time and whenever he has it they're just being fucking goofy together. Martha and Donna (also mid s4) witnessing this and Clara wondering allowed if the time travel is really worth putting up with them. Eleven (and Ten tbh) Cannot handle the concept of sharing with themself but then they find out Rose's phone password or whatever is "sweetie" and Eleven's like "River :D". Nine spends the entire time arguing with Rose about whether or not he mentioned the time travel thing. Ten spends the entire time trying to figure out how the hell she's there (and how the hell she understands so much about interdimensional physics). Rose flirts with Martha. Clara gets called a "short king" at some point and needs 8 hours to process. Twelve and Bill show up at the end and Bill's like "holy shit wait those are the guys from the pictures in Rose's office!!!" and Twelve's like "back in the TARDIS. In in in in in in in. If you keep talking the universe will explode - no she's not also dating them - well, I mean - back in the TARDIS". And through the entire thing Eleven is fucking fighting for his life (trying to get Rose to hold his hand even though they're dealing with a very precarious situation).

this has sat in my inbox for days because i like looking at it

#GIVE ME THE CONTENT PLS GIVE ME THE CONTENT I'M BEGGING FOR CONTENT

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sherl-grey · 3 years ago

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The reason Eleven x Rose is so great is because of the yearning and the idea of the star-crossed lovers finally getting their happy ending together. At least, that's my thoughts on them lmao

Yes, I 100% agree, but there's also just something about Eleven's personality that makes me so sad that he never has her along? *long-winded thoughts incoming, lol* I'll put the disclaimer here that I'm still new to DW in general in case that affects any of the following, but so far:

He's the flirtiest and most direct Doctor that I've seen yet (in terms of some of the more emotional bits, at least; where I'm at, Twelve is direct so far but more in the "blunt" way, haha), and given the mental place we know Ten left off in, it's hard not to think that it's because he's missing something that he's desperate to find again. I could dig pretty deep into my opinions on Nine & Ten's eras vs. Eleven's era, but I will say that while the Ponds do clearly love Eleven, their relationships with the Doctor are extremely different than those of the RTD companions. The personal bonds that he builds with Rose, Martha and Donna are so different than even the one he builds with Amy, who (and I could write an essay on this stupid part but for the sake of sanity let's not) he also "shares" with Rory, by which I mean he's not the sole focus of her attention the way he was with other companions. And we don't ever really see him get that close to Rory or (imo) River. He does eventually get that full-attention closeness from Clara and my goodness he immediately soaks it up like a sponge. He's desperate for that kind of affection or dare I say love. This isn't to take away from Eleven's companions necessarily (though I have a separate list of complaints there, lol), but it feels an awful lot like watching him constantly try to fill a gap.

And we get that awful episode A Good Man Goes to War (sorry to anyone who liked it, though I have like no followers here so I think I'm safe) where River shows up at the end and randomly gets an almost-parallel moment to Rose's in "Dalek," only instead of being preventative it's remedial--what has the Doctor changed into? (Especially as there's that running "the Doctor needs someone to stop him" theme; Rose always stopped him. Donna stopped him. Amy even stopped him in the star-whale episode, but it wasn't enough to stop him from eventually snowballing.)

I just think, overall, even if she's not explicitly mentioned or referenced very often, there are still very major parts of Eleven that I imagine are wounds carried over from Ten losing Rose, and it's particularly heartbreaking that he never gets any time with her and only suffers from the loss.

Also, I just think Rose would've absolutely adored Eleven and his really bad flirting and his stupid hats and ridiculous bow-tie and the way he trips over his own two feet and really, everything. And he would've loved her, just like his last two selves.

(Sorry, I know this is so much longer than the "heck yes!" that the ask warranted, but I'm in a "thoughts are everywhere" mood.)

#ask

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serendipitous-posts · 5 years ago

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Doctor Who Q&A!

Who is your Doctor?

Matt Smith! Funny story about him actually-he was the first doctor I ever watched-it was Time of the Angels, but at the time I watched that episode, Matt Smith’s run was over. I went back and watched Nine and Ten, and then rewatched Eleven before hitting Twelve up. Eleven has always had a special place in my heart

Your favourite Doctor?

Funnily enough, Twelve. He faintly edges out Eleven in this regard. I think I just really enjoy his humour, dry and sarcastic, and the character arc of wondering whether he’s a good person or not really spoke to me. Yeah, stinky eyebrow man wins in this regard

Least favourite Doctor?

Either Nine or Thirteen? I found Nine to be somewhat boring, I liked his humour, but most of the time was spent setting up his backstory, or that weird romance thing with Rose, and since romance has never interested me, except in certain areas *shrugs*

Thirteen isn’t anything to do with Jodie Whittaker, it’s just that the best moments of Doctor Who are when the Doctor is sad, or vulnerable or angry. The Oncoming Storm is a big part of it all. And it seems that she never really has the oppurtunity to be emotional in this yet. That’s the scriptwriters fault, not hers, and I’m happy they’re starting to change it with the new season.

Best regeneration?

Oh god, that’s actually a tie between Ten, Eleven and Twelve for me

Ten dies alone and it is awful. His last lines brought me to tears, and there’s something so sad about him being killed protecting one of his friends.

Eleven had me sobbing. Out of the three, he’s the only one who met this whole thing with acceptance, and he’s the only one to not be alone when it happens. His was the nicest out of the three, but because he was MY Doctor, I was bawling like a baby. When Amy appeared I b r o k e

Twelve is heartbreakingly realistic. He’s not resisting change like Ten is, he just wants to rest, for once. Like Ten, he dies alone, with only memories to comfort him, and I remember tearing up when he told Thirteen what he told Clara

Who is the most human Doctor?

Either Ten or Twelve. Both of them are conflicted about their morality and whether they should do the right thing or not, both of them try and fail and try again. Twelve is just the one to realise he’s not good or bad, he’s an idiot.

Best Companion?

Donna Noble or Amy Pond and Rory.

I am a sex repulsed ace-aro, this means I would rather stick my hand in a woodchipper than be in a relationship with someone. Platonic friendships and family have always been my bread and butter and these three are perfect for the Doctor.

Donna Noble? Bold, sassy, determined. Her mom is constantly putting her down, and yet she’s the saviour of the Universe. She doesn’t hesitate to call Ten out on his bullshit, and her departure hurt me on so many levels. I have loved her ever since Pompeii, and I will decry the erasure of her character as unfair until the end of bloody time

Amy Pond and Rory. I’m putting these two together, because I only really started to like Amy when Rory came in. I love their character arcs, growing and changing. Their relationship is also fun to watch, once you get over the drama. I like relationships like Chandler and Monica, natural, fun to watch, not Ross and Rachel, dragged out, on and off again, and after a brief buffer period, these two sorted out their differences and their banter was amazing to watch. Also, the fact that they’re the Doctor’s in laws? They are the epitome of found family and I am LOVING IT

Shoutout to Martha Jones btw, runner up as always. I wish we got to see more of her when she WASN’T enamoured with the Doctor, watching her call him out in the Poison Sky was magnificent.

Worst Companion?

The Companions relationships with the Doctor are the most important thing in the show; what they think of him, how much they trust him, what extent are their feelings towards them, and to me, none was quite as boring as Rose and the Doctor.

I HATE will they-wont they plots, and that basically sums up their entire run together, getting jealous of eachothers partners, vaguely alluding towards their attraction to eachother, but not saying it, it drained all of the fun out of Rose. Her making out with a clone of the Doctor, in front of the Doctor was the final thing for me.

And while I’m all for the return of a Companion, she seems to linger throughout Ten’s run. I can understand why for Martha’s; that was her entire character arc after all, learning to expect better of yourself, but she didn’t need to be there for Donna’s; they very easily could have thought of another way to create DoctorDonna. Her presence was everywhere throughout David Tennants run, and I found it annoying

Favourite Doctor Who Ships?

River Song with Eleven, Twelve or Thirteen. As I said, banter and comedy is how you establish a good relationship, it shows how relaxed two people are together, and River with whichever Doctor she’s with at the time always has this flirty back and forth going on between them. They’re very open about their attraction to eachother, and I love it. Also, Thirteen and River because if you don’t think Thirteen is a raging pansexual then I have news for you.

Amy and Rory for the reasons I listed above; they sort through their issues, have good repartee and are a very enjoyable couple to watch

(I briefly shipped Eleven x Amy x Rory before I found out they were in laws, so shoutout to that.)

Least Favourite Doctor Who Ships?

Rose x Doctor. It would have been fine if they ACTUALLY DID SOMETHING WITH IT INSTEAD OF JUST HINTING AT IT

Martha x Doctor. Martha’s whole arc is about learning that the Doctor is treating her badly and that she doesn’t need him. To go back to him would invalidate that whole thing

Controversial Thought?

I know a lot of people hate Clara, but to be honest, I’m more apathetic/warm towards her. I loved her relationship with Twelve, and how she was almost a caretaker towards him. She starts to act like the Doctor after a while, but then that’s what the Companions DO, they become more versatile, more able to handle tough situations. I’m not happy how they made her immortal and gave her her own TARDIS, but other than that, I’m pretty mild towards her

Best Two-Parter Episode?

Heaven Sent and Hell Bent. It was one of those episodes, ones that are genuinely, deeply horrifying. I got chills when I realised how long the Doctor had been trapped in the Confession Dial. I wasn’t really happy with how the brought Clara back from the dead, but I was okay with it, because watching her read the High Command the riot act for how they treated the Doctor was so, so worth it

Best Doctor/companion pairing?

Ten and Donna. Loved their brother-sister duo relationship

If Two Doctors could meet, who would you choose?

Thirteen and Four would be fun; they have similar energy and scarves after all. Think that would be fun to see. Thirteen and Twelve would also have a nice energy between them I think. Maybe throw in some height jokes.

If any Companions could meet, who would you choose?

Donna and Amy would probably end up flirting with each other. But, at the same time, I think Donna may help Amy come away from her hero worship of the Doctor.

Martha and Rory would bond over how they sometimes feel like third wheelers and probably share medical knowledge. Martha and Clara would be fun, caring for the Doctor’s health.

If any Companions could meet any Doctor, which would you choose?

Martha meets Twelve. Twelve is actively trying to figure out whether he’s a good person, and I can see him trying to make amends for the way he’s treated her.

Thirteen meets Amy and Rory. She probably wouldn’t tell them who she is, but she would be so excited to see them again

Donna meets Nine. They would spend the entire time snarking at eachother

The Fam meets Ten. He would be so overwhelmed when he sees how many people are joining him right now

#doctor who #Twelfth Doctor #eleventh doctor #tenth doctor #ninth doctor #Thirteenth Doctor #rose tyler #martha jones #donna noble #amy pond #rory williams #clara oswald #bill potts

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arenee1999 · 5 years ago

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The Consistency of The Doctor

Beware: Wall-of-Text (huge wall-of-text) and my thoughts on (and how I view) The Doctor and the regenerations.

Also massive Classic Who spoilers in case anyone cares. (There are some things I’m glad I didn’t know before I started watching it) And a non-specific spoiler for Spyfall part 2.

As fans of Doctor Who we put a lot of our focus on favorite or least favorite incarnation of The Doctor or The Master, favorite and least favorite companions. We sometimes lose sight of the show as a whole and that even though the Doctor has many different faces, it is the same character.

My first introduction to Doctor Who was in 2005 with the revival. I saw the commercial with Chris Eccleston proclaiming it to be “the trip of a lifetime” and I knew I had to watch it, I was hooked from that moment before it ever aired. I watched Nine and Ten and halfway through series 4 I decided it was time to go back and actually watch Classic Who. I started at the beginning with An Unearthly Child and worked my way forward and also watching all the new episodes as they aired. Life got in the way, while I kept up with the new episodes I had to put my Classic Who watching on hold. I had made it through season 13 before I had to stop. Rather recently I picked it up again. I now only have the Eighth Doctor movie and the Peter Cushing movies left to go and they’ll have to wait a few months.

Through all of this I came to realize, my “favorite doctor” tends to be whichever version I’m currently watching. I do have a ranking order, those that if I want to watch a random episode I’m most likely to gravitate to. Versions that resonate deeply within me for various reasons. My list is very much opposite from the majority of fandom and that’s ok. We shouldn’t all like the exact same things. How boring would that be?! (I do wish I could move on to the Big Finish audios, but there’s so many and they all cost money that I don’t have. I’m also very hard of hearing and tend to get lost in the sound of peoples voices and not be able to concentrate on what they’re saying.)

When I finished Survival, about a week ago, and then watched Spyfall just a few days later I really stopped to think about the different regenerations of the Doctor (and the Master but mostly the Doctor). If you pay attention, you can see the frame of mind the Doctor was in when he regenerated each time and see the threads that tie all the versions together. The First Doctor started out overly arrogant, cold and a bit of a bully. But he had had little interaction with anyone except other Time Lords at that point. Through his three seasons (sadly most of which are missing) he does tone down the arrogance and coldness a bit towards his companions but doesn’t have the right personality to really be friendly to them. When he regenerates we get Two, who is gregarious and happy. Two regenerates after having his companions stripped from him and his mind wiped. Consequently Three is reserved and focused on science. He is surrounded by friends, including multiple clashes with the Master (they’re best friends as well as enemies), throughout this regeneration without any truly dark stretches, which lets him regenerate into the fun loving Four. The Fourth Doctor spends the majority of his reign happy, even when he gets blisteringly angry it only lasts a short time before he’s smiling again. He regenerates while facing the Master and we get Five. The Fifth Doctor has an innocence about him, is softhearted and kind. At least, he is until Adric’s death. Then we see him close himself off a bit, become short-tempered and prickly. Cue the Sixth Doctor who has a porcupine exterior wrapped around himself as protection against being hurt but still has a soft center, if you can handle being stung multiple times in order to reach it. He’s bristly and sarcastic, some of his superior attitude shows through again but he still cares about his companions, you can see the anguish when he’s told Peri is dead and the sheer relief when he finds out it was a lie. He regenerates into Seven, who is once again softer and kinder but still with a rather large thread of steel running through him. If you’re paying attention you will see where Ten’s “Time Lord Victorious” attitude comes from. Eight (while I’ve not seen all of it, I have seen some) has the rough edges from Six all worn away. Seven was largely happy and carefree without massive trauma, which makes Eight more relaxed and softer. His growth and change happens in the audios :( but we see how and why he changes into the War Doctor. Who then turns into Nine. The Ninth Doctor is angry and broken after the Time War. He re-learns to see the beauty and the wonder of the universe through the eyes of Rose. Ten is happy and optimistic and full of energy, until he loses Rose. He never quite gets over that, there’s always a bit of melancholy running through him from that point and having to wipe Donna’s memory just exacerbates the problem. But when he knows he’s regenerating he visits his companions and sees them happy. He sees Donna getting married. He sees Rose smiling just months before their first meeting. So we get Eleven, who is a mix of exuberance and caution. He’s capable of insane highs and doleful pensiveness. When he regenerates it’s a special circumstance, because it shouldn’t have been able to happen. But he was given a complete new regeneration cycle. Twelve is a complete blank slate. He has no social skills, he doesn’t remember who or what he is even. When the memories return and all that loss hits him at once, he wraps himself in layers of armour as protection and lets the social ineptitude be his excuse for a myriad of sins. But Clara was already under the armour before he donned it and she shows him how to trust and care again. Which is why he nearly tears the universe apart to keep her alive and why he had to be the one to lose his memories of her. Then he spends 24 years with River on Darillium, finds Bill and loses her in the most horrific way and because of the machinations of the Master, no less. But before he regenerates his memories of Clara are returned and he knows Bill is happy with the final choice she made. (as an aside, we see bits of every previous Doctor in Twelve during his seasons, and it’s glorious) Which brings us to Thirteen. She is outwardly friendly, she is kind and optimistic but she is also reserved and reticent about sharing much about herself. And now she’s been hit with the Master’s actions to Gallifrey. I’m not sure I really want to know what is so bad, so horrific, it crosses over the Masters moral compass. And it better be horrific, if it’s not I will lose any ability to take Chris Chibnall serious as a writer or showrunner for Doctor Who.

I don’t really expect anyone to agree with my take, but maybe my view can give you a new way to look at the Doctor. Maybe a way to find the common threads through the regenerations. Maybe instead of blaming the actors for bad episodes or seasons, blame the weak scripts, the scripts with plot holes large enough to cram Jupiter through. The actors did (have done and are doing) brilliantly and can only work with the material they’re given. They’ve kept the Doctor consistent, even when it doesn’t seem like it at first glance.

#doctor who #doctor who meta

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isagrimorie · 6 years ago

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Listening to a Doctor Who podcast mention that Rose Tyler has a tendency to be in unhealthy relationships, which tbh, fair.

Her relationship with Mickey wasn’t really healthy nor the one with the boyfriend who she briefly ran off with. Her relationship with the Doctor (I shipped her more with Nine than Ten) was also not that healthy either. Honestly there were some things I wasn’t happy with about with Nine. It wasn’t nice nor good but it was fascinating.

I honestly feel Handy!Ten could be Rose's healthiest because the Donna part of Handy would help bring them into a better relationship.

The thing I am taking an issue with is how the podcaster seem to put that solely on Rose's shoulder when the show has proven again and again the Doctor tended to have unhealthy codependent relationships whether they be friends or romantic partners.

See: Doctor's various companions, River (for me part of the problem is Eleven tried so hard not to have a codependent relationship with River to both prevent from telling her her future, and in a vain hope to change her fate), and the Master.

The Doctor being so singularly focused on someone can be the most heady, addictive thing in the world.

You are their focus, your well-being can trump time and the safety of the universe.

It is heady and amazing and, honestly terrifying because when the Doctor loves, they will love that person above everything else.

They can forgive the person they love for anything. Even if you destroy half the universe (Master), destroy the world or time itself (River).

Honestly, all we need to do is look no further than the Doctor’s relationship with the Master/Missy.

And god, I love Bill Potts a lot but what the Master engineered was terrible beyond measure but we know that given a few centuries the Doctor will forgive and has forgiven the Master. And the Doctor has, in the form of Missy.

All we need to do is ask Martha Jones and she will tell you that the Doctor is like fire and ice, that they are the most wonderful person she’s ever met but also, that the Doctor forgave the Master just after they almost destroyed all life on Earth. After a year where her family were made into slaves.

The Doctor's love is singular and unconditional, and so, so terrible. It’s so much for the person they love but also so terrible for anyone else who isn’t the person they love.

Also, as a 19 year old girl how in the world can Rose fare against one of the most manipulative thing the Doctor's done:

youtube

I am honestly glad the Doctor has grown from this and that Thirteen is actively not trying to be that way, but as we know from It Takes You Away the Doctor is still capable of doing that:

“Someone who has seen it all, and that's me. I've lived longer, seen more, loved more and lost more. I can share it all with you. Anything you want to know about what you never had. ‘Cause he's an idiot with a daughter who needs him. So let him go and I will give you everything.”

And honestly, it has the same energy without the edge of desperation that suffused Nine.

This charm, this ability to sway people is still in Thirteen, she just consciously not using it.

So, yeah, this whole unhealthy co-dependent thing it’s not just on Rose or any person who falls in love with them. It’s a two way street and usually the Doctor’s the one starting it.

They might be unconscious about charming people but also there’s a part of them that knows they’re doing that. Pulling people in, getting them to do what they want.

The current fam is very lucky that at the moment, the Doctor is very conscious of it and not doing that.

(Twelve too, I think, was very conscious of it but at that point he and Clara were caught in an orbit around each other that’s hard to break from).

#thinky thoughts #doctor who #character analysis #thirteenth doctor #13th doctor #ninth doctor #9th doctor #dr. who

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might-be-a-zygon · 4 years ago

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Okay but what if this but the companions got dragged along too?

• Rose sticking to Ten like glue. Who are these weirdos and why are they all flirting with her Doctor? Protection instincts activated.

• At first Jack is all “There are five of you?” (Because nine is here too dammit) “I can’t even tell you what I’m thinking right now.”. But he pretty quickly winds up in protective mode because come on it’s the Master.

• Mickey has heard enough about the year that wasn’t from Martha to team up with Jack on that whole overprotective front. He’s not letting Simm!Master out of his sight.

• Martha is trying very hard not to be bothered by seeing the Master again after what he did to her family. The Lumiat actually goes up to her and gives a very sincere apology- she doesn’t remember doing it but she knows it happened.

• Donna gets into a screaming match with with Missy the first time she makes a ‘humans are puppies’ comment. (“Oi! Who’d you think you’re calling puppy, Mary Poppins?”)

• Amy mostly just sits back to watch the drama unfold. Rory keeps trying to make her stick near where Jack and Mickey are because the Masters seem to be avoiding that spot but she’s interested to see how things unfold. She probably winds up making friends with Donna. At one point she corners Twelve to ask about the accent.

• Rory mostly tries to stay out of it, mostly because River has kind of clued them in on who the Masters are and it seems safer to not get into a Time Lord punchup. At one point Missy goes a little too far with taunting River though and then he’s right back into centurian dad ™ mode.

• River joins in making jokes with Jack at first. The other Masters mainly leave her alone, but Missy is interested to talk to her again after the whole Bekdel fiasco. Bickering and jealousy ensue, especially when Missy gets handsy with Eleven. At some point she’d probably get distracted and River would wind up with Twelve and Thirteen because she’s not seen those faces yet. Twelve is sticking close because he’s already lost her once. Ten is avoiding her like the plague after the library. Rose is probably jealous of her.

• Clara enjoys getting to see 11 again, Missy taunts her a bit and then she just kind of settles in with Amy to watch the show. She’s pretty confident five Doctors can beat three Masters. She sees through O’s bullshit right off the bat.

• Nardole is genuinely thrilled to see River again. He keeps trying to make Bill stay away from the Masters because they’re bad.

• Bill watches for a while, chats with the Lumiat (because no way is she really the same person as Missy), and then gets sick of Nardole whining and goes to sit with Clara and exchange embarrassing stories about the Doctor.

• Thirteen gets upset and hugs all of the former companions, before trying to make the fam stay safe on the sidelines. Ryan winds up sitting with Jack and Mickey because he at least recognizes Jack. They share stories about weird stuff the Doctor has done. Rory joins in and responds to the ‘she accidentally kidnapped us’ story from Ryan with the story about that one time the Doctor accidentally kidnapped his dad.

• Jack flirts with Graham. Graham probably takes the opportunity to talk to Nine through Twelve and try and get more information about the Doctor. Eleven is delighted about being called Doc and hopes it’ll catch on.

• Yaz disregards what Thirteen says and sticks by her side the whole time. She doesn’t know what the Master did to her on Gallifrey but Thirteeen hasn’t been the same since and Yaz isn’t letting it happen again.

Bonus things that happen.

• Rory tells everyone the ‘There are soldiers all over the house and I’m in my pants’ story. Jack immediately makes a joke about how that happened to him one time, and him and Amy bond over it.

• Eleven gets excited that Missy has a bow tie.

• Twelve being grumpy about Thirteen’s fashion choices. (“I really went back to the suspenders thing? And why is it so bright?”)

• Donna and Thirteen interact. That’s it, that’s the whole bullet point.

• Donna and NINE interact.

• Donna yelling “Get in there space girl!” After Thirteen punches Simm!Master.

• Roasting all of the Time Lord’s outfits.

Ten would be pissed and confused and very relieved because the whole ‘we’re the only ones left’ thing would still be raw. Also he doesn’t know he didn’t kill all the others yet. He’d probably be very interested in the Lumiat for that reason- trying to work our who else survived. Once the initial betrayal calmed down he’d be pretty clingy.

Simm!Master would be all over Thirteen, basically doing the Gallifreyan equivalent of pulling on her pigtails and pushing her in the mud. He’s VERY smug about being taller. It probably ends with her decking him and going to stand with Twelve and Missy (or her slamming him against a wall and him having a repeat of the ‘is it wrong?’ moment from s10). He probably moves onto trying to work out who the Lumiat is and bugging Ten after that.

The Lumiat literally gives Thirteen and Simm a lecture about ‘using our words not our fists’ and makes them sit separately. The Lumiat has big cybernetic cats so they listen.

Twelve would have to babysit Missy the whole time and keep her from harassing Eleven. (“Put him down, Missy.” “But I never got to play with this one!”). She’d be pulling on his braces and being VERY flirty. Twelve has to stop her from trying the overly friendly android trick again.

Eleven knows O, and doesn’t make the connection right away, ending up sticking with his cool spy friend and having a very animated discussion. Dhawan!Master is visibly struggling to keep the nice act up with Thirteen glaring daggers at him. In the end he winds up straight up dragging Eleven in for a kiss my the braces and letting him feel the heartbeats.

Twelve is literally the only one trying to work out how to leave the room.

The Lumiat knows exactly how to get out. She set all this up. She’s not telling.

pls im screaming akhfjsj

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bardqueenofgallifrey · 7 years ago

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L for the fanfic asks?

L: What's the weirdest AU you've ever come up with?

ok so I don’t know if this is the absolute weirdest one

(I’m sure I had an idea for one that involved Six running a strip club and the companions being the strippers/waitresses and the other Doctors being various family members some of whom were also involved in running other aspects of the club, but I think the less said about that one the better)

but ANYWAY this is one I really love that I definitely want to write one day:

ok so basically it’s a DW Mamma Mia AU

Jenny (as in, the Doctor’s daughter) is getting married

but she doesn’t know who her dad is, because she found the diary her mother (River) kept the year she got pregnant with Jenny, and it talks about three different guys

the three guys are, of course: Ten, Eleven, and Twelve

so, she invites them all to her wedding

she’s marrying Clara it’s my cute gay crack ship, let me have it

her best friends who are visiting and in on her plan are Rose and Martha, and Rose is so onboard with this plan of inviting the dads to the wedding while Martha, sensibly, is like “Jenny babe I love you but this is a bad idea”, but they do all have a good giggle about River’s colourful sexual past

meanwhile, River has been running her villa on this remote island, wanting to travel but not having the money

HER best friends, Donna and Missy, arrive, and they have a whole lot of fun and River worries a bit less about Jenny growing up so fast (imagine the three of them singing Dancing Queen in River’s bedroom like idiots, go on, it’s hilarious and adorable)

and then the potential dads arrive

Twelve is probably called Theodore, and he’s really surprised to see Missy there, because they’re old childhood friends and sweethearts. Missy is also trans, so that was back before her transition, but he’s obviously totally chill about her being a lady these days and is quite excited to see her

Eleven gets to be John Smith, he’s The One for River that she’s been quietly regretting letting walk away this whole time, and he’s never forgotten her either, but both of them try and play it Really Cool for most of the story

Ten is maybe called Jamie or something idk, and he and Rose are the age gap “does your mother know” couple that develop throughout the story, bc she’s like 19 and he’s like 40, but they’re adorable so it’s fine

oh boy, River’s FACE when they rock up, can you even imagine all the outrageous sex she’s remembering, she starts day drinking immediately, Donna tries to take the alcohol away while Missy encourages her and joins her bc oh boy she didn’t expect old Thete to turn up and

“ok River would it be weird if I tried to pull my old buddy who might be the father of your child” “not really this shit is already pretty weird” “ok cool thanks, you’re a real pal, sister”

Jenny realises that she’s fucked up because she really can’t tell which one is her dad, things go kind of sideways

Twelve and Clara know each other bc she used to be a student of his or something like that, or maybe she was a hitchhiker he picked up one time, idk, and anyway they’re like “well, this is an odd way to meet again, but hey”, Clara finds herself hoping that he’s Jenny’s dad because he would be the coolest dorkiest father in law even though she did also find him hot that one time so maybe it’s best if he isn’t, that could be weird

Eleven professes his love for River and admits to how bad he fucked up and how he knew he hurt her real bad when he fucked off 20 years back, but how he wants to make it up to her real bad

she’s spent the last 20 years trying to get over the whole emotional scarring from that, so she’s like “get fucked”

the three potential dads decide they don’t want to know who Jenny’s biological father is, because they all love her so much already that they agree that sharing the fatherhood would be more than enough

Jenny and Clara decide not to get married and instead to go travelling together

Eleven makes a big romantic gesture to show River that he’s serious about still being in love with her and she gives in bc goddamnit he’s always been The One That Got Away and they get married instead, rather spontaneously, and plan to go travelling together too

so they’re now giggly flirty newlyweds, Jenny gets three dads, Twissy get together, so do Ten and Rose, and EVERYONE LIVES HAPPILY EVER AFTER

I hopefully will, one day, write this dumb, ridiculous, adorable AU

seriously. imagine River, Donna, and Missy singing Dancing Queen together. come on. how fucking great is that.

#mamma mia #doctor who #doctor who au #river song #twissy #eleven x river #clara oswald #au #asks #my writing #fic idea #amatalefay

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script101 · 8 years ago

Text

An alternate hypothesis of Clara and Twelve's relationship.

I know that Clara and The Doctor loved each other profoundly.

I think he remembers what Clara would have wanted him to remember.

I think The Doctor loved Clara more than he had ever loved anyone.

Clara was The Impossible Girl.

I think their love and their perception of each other was, appropriately, IMPOSSIBLE.

I don’t think their perception of their relationship was planned from day one, but I do give Steven Moffat quite a bit of credit in terms of remembering what has happened and understanding what will and won’t work.

They loved each other. Profoundly. Painfully.

I do NOT think they were IN love, though.

Fellow Clara stans, tell me if I’m crazy:

___________________

(I will preface this by admitting that I thought they were heading towards romantic love when it was Eleven and Clara, and I now I have to edit this because I remember that I felt cheated that we didn’t see more of those two actors together after Clara saved him from himself. But, after both Jenna Coleman and Peter Capaldi were adamant about there not being any romance between them, I can only guess that perhaps Matt Smith had a little crush on JC. And crucially, since Heaven Sent and Hell Bent show how much The Doctor loved Clara, Clara would have had to have been wildly out of established explicitly stated character, and have been a mindbogglingly shallow hypocrite for 4/5ths of her run, if she permanently fell OUT of love with The Doctor and dumped him for handsome Danny simply because Twelve didn’t look like he was in his late twenties/early thirties anymore. Jenny hung the lampshade on that in episode 8x01. Appearances don’t matter if you’re IN ROMANTIC LOVE. No. Romantic love doesn’t really work. Yes, they flirted. He was cute, he saved her life, and he followed her around like a puppy ostensibly finding new ways to entertain her. But instead he was actually trying to figure out what in the universe she was. He was sweet and cuddly and genuinely concerned for her safety, but Eleven’s interest in Clara was NOT pure. Clara was Eleven’s new shiny Rubik’s Cube, not his partner. He was Amy’s friend. He wasn’t really Clara’s. She fancied him, she adored him, she risked her life for him and then chose to DIE for him. But if we think about how Mme Vastra described The Doctor to Victorian Clara, he was cruel and almost dead inside. In HIDE, the kindest woman on earth, a true empathic psychic made no secret of her deep dislike and mistrust of Eleven even though “Eleven” is how high he had turned up the charm! She told Clara “He has ice in his heart”. This has a second meaning in terms of “The Impossible Girl” puzzle, but Emma Greyling wasn’t reading Eleven’s thoughts, she was reading his EMOTIONS. In the context she stated it, her meaning was unambiguous. Imho, until Clara walked into his Time Stream, Clara was no more then a pretty entertaining puzzle for the emotionally wounded Eleven to solve.)

“Romantic love” is also almost too easy.

It doesn’t explain why Twelve HAD to have his specific memories of Clara erased.

“In love” dismisses, denies, and insults both River and Rose, not to mention The Doctor’s first wife. Dismissing Rose makes Ten’s treatment of Martha inexcusable.

It undermines his friendships with Amy and Rory and Donna.

The Doctor is 2000 years old. He’s lost… everyone.

You can survive losing a love. You can survive losing a spouse.

There is one relationship, so rare that we don’t think about it, where the loss of one FOR ANY REASON AT ANY AGE, has (per Psychology Today) predicted the death of the other within two years at a horrifying rate of 50%. I read that and found it so disturbing I can’t bear to believe it. The idea that there is one person, and that if you have that person in your life, and they die, or worse you see them murdered in front of you, the chance that you will be dead within 2 years is a coin toss? THAT WOULD justify and REQUIRE a memory wipe.

______

I’m operating on the assumption that everyone reading this has seen seasons 7-9. I’m only pointing out a few episodes as reference.

Eleven met a doomed Clara in the first episode of season seven. That Clara was the same as all the Claras: so insanely smart that the Daleks wanted her, but so devoid of anything resembling a cruel thought that they were unable to make her a Dalek. Subtract love, add hate. You can’t subtract love if love IS what you are (please google the translation of La Habanera and note how it fits Clara’s arc down to the bird), you can’t add hate if you aren’t a hate filled person.

In The Snowmen, we meet Clara again. She’s so much like Eleven I remember thinking they were separated at birth! Just like The Doctor, she was running around with a fake name that we never learn. She was NOT calling herself “Alice Montague”. The closing credits, Amazon Prime, and IMDb confirm that Alice was the name of the housekeeper. We NEVER learned the pseudonym of the Governess*.

We finally meet Clara Prime. She and Eleven seem to flirt and he follows her around like a puppy. They hug, but never kiss. He isn’t interested in Clara, he is interested in trying to figure out what Clara is and how she continues to exist. There are no longing gazes. The one time that Eleven comments on Clara’s appearance in a sexual way, he immediately shudders. The shudder bothered me.

At the end of season 7, Clara, a human, walked into the Eleventh Doctor’s time stream (Name of the Doctor). While she was in his time stream, Eleven FINALLY kissed his wife like a man! Applause combined with me shouting “it’s about damn time!” After saying goodbye to River, Eleven was then able to pull Clara out safely. He found her a few feet from another version of himself (the War Doctor). We have two more episodes with Matt Smith and from then on it’s Clara and the Twelfth Doctor.

Then it starts getting bizarre.

After regenerating, Twelve describes Clara as “the NOT me one”. Huh? Seriously, what??? Because he thinks it’s hard to tell them apart?

The mystery is solved, but Twelve is more dependent on Clara than he was on anyone to date. Their relationship was odd, but now, for the first time, they were partners. They were EQUALS.

There are viewers who hate that Clara became arguably the most important person in The Doctor’s life. It logically really should be either Davros (the creator of the things that defined who the doctor wasn’t), or Missy/The Master (the only other member of his species still alive). Steven Moffat solidified Clara’s influence on The Doctor relatively early on in “Listen”.

From Twelve’s point of view, once Clara walked into his time stream Clara has been with him his entire life. In LISTEN the audience sees that she really has been with him his entire life. We also know from that script and the script to Dark Water that Clara never could have wound up in The Doctor’s bedroom to comfort him as a child if their time streams weren’t INTERTWINED and if they too didn’t share a profound emotional and psychic link.

Twelve is seemingly very rude to Clara, but he also still follows her around like a puppy. He insults her appearance by saying they look the same age.

So I have to wonder: what if he wasn’t insulting her? What if he actually thinks of her as being the same age as he is?

He clearly can’t live without her.

He is very troubled at the end of Flatline (a personal favorite of mine). He’s upset because Clara was way too good at being him. She should have been upset about the people who died. She wasn’t. He was. Quite a reversal of the previous week.

Clara WAS in romantic love with Danny Pink. They were both teachers. They both loved children. CLARA MET AND SPOKE TO THEIR GREAT-GRANDSON ORSON PINK. After Danny’s death (in a cruel irony, he died after being hit by a car. Clara’s parents met after her mother Ellie saved her father Dave from the same fate.)

Having met Orson, Clara wasn’t just grieving a boyfriend, she was grieving the man she believed was going to be her husband and CLARA WAS GRIEVING THEIR CHILDREN.

Clara believed, ever since Listen, that she and Danny were going to have at least one son, and at least one grandson who would be Orson’s father. She snapped. Who can blame her? We were never given proof that Missy murdered Danny. Clara is the type to blame herself. In her mind, because she was too afraid to tell Danny about all her lies to his face, she believed she had killed Danny, she believed she had killed their son, she believed had killed their grandson, and she believed she had killed her great-grandson Orson. Clara believed she had obliterated her entire family, and the weight of that was just too much for her. Again, who can blame her?

Clara threatens Twelve to try to make him save Danny, even though she knew it was impossible. Huh. Ok. Um… How DID human Clara know that it was impossible? Yes she’s very smart, but that’s a stretch. We in the audience knew. How did she? How much “Time Lord Wisdom” did she absorb while she was in Eleven’s time stream?

When did she learn his biography? He could have told her, but it doesn’t seem like something season 8’s Doctor would talk about.

The opening credits for Death in Heaven showed Clara’s eyes in the spot reserved for The Doctor. To play with the audience? Sure. To hint at The Hybrid? Why not.

We learn Missy put them together. Missy is insane, but she knows The Doctor. Out of all the people in the universe, she knew Clara was the perfect match for The Doctor. In her wacko mind, Clara was a gift.

On to season nine. Clara is becoming more and more reckless and more and more like The Doctor. Twelve is becoming increasingly worried about losing Clara.

Then he sees her murdered.

Stop. Back up. Why were we shown the Osgoods? >

Yes it was a brilliant two parter and I thought the political message was perfect and desperately needed.

But why did the Zygon story begin by showing us that when one Osgood died, her twin went insane? This element of the story was irrelevant. Moving, yes, but irrelevant to the larger narrative unless it wasn’t important to an even larger story arc. Grief was enough. Why madness?

In Heaven Sent, we KNOW The Doctor understands what is happening once he realizes the significance of the word “Bird”. But he keeps going. He wants to die. He is afraid to die but the thought of living without Clara is too much to bear. He is ready to give up. It’s only a pep talk from a hallucination of Clara that makes him continue through the most evil torture I can imagine.

He does it in order to cheat death. In order to cheat CLARA’S death. In order to try to attempt what Clara had tried a season earlier: rewrite a fixed point in time even though he KNEW damn well he couldn’t.

Once forced to accept that Clara’s heart will never beat again, we see that Twelve STILL refuses to accept it.

He’s still trying to cheat.

His logic makes no sense.

Ashildr (as the Voice of Moffat) is tasked with explaining “The Hybrid” to The Doctor and Clara (a human who has activated the monitor of the second TARDIS she’s ever been in, and who has been able to control THE TARDIS with a snap of her finger just like The Doctor since the 50th anniversary episode). Ashildr explains that she isn’t The Hybrid, the Hybrid is Twelve and Clara TOGETHER.

She’s right.

The two of them were The Hybrid. The hearts Twelve burned were his own.

_______

…I remember thinking they were separated at birth…

At the beginning of this essay, I mentioned that there is one death you can’t recover from. The death people can’t recover from is losing THEIR TWIN. Identical or fraternal, the surviving twin always feels that a piece of them is missing. If that surviving twin was a Time Lord with a Tardis, would he EVER give up trying to make his twin sister’s heart beat again? We saw evidence that 3.4 billion years of torture wouldn’t stop him. Twelve would never stop until the universe burned. THAT was why he had to lose his memory.

Somewhere Clara is still flying around in a TARDIS she shouldn’t be able to fly and she still loves Twelve. But once her murder was a fixed point, Twelve couldn’t handle remembering her anymore. The memory of her was too dangerous.

_______

So yes, I agree that they loved each other, but it wasn’t romantic love.

Clara and Twelve… their love was something else. Something, appropriately, completely IMPOSSIBLE.

I think that when Clara stepped into The Doctor’s time stream and splintered across it, she became psychologically more than a bit like him and he became psychologically more then a bit like her.

Danny recognized how close Clara was to The Doctor. Clara was worried about his reaction to her continued travels in the TARDIS, but Danny seemed as ok with their relationship as could he expected. Danny couldn’t stand Twelve, but even after Kill the Moon he had accepted that they were a set. If he loves one of them, he’s gonna be stuck with the other. He saw and stated that Clara and The Doctor very close and got along. He didn’t want her taking idiotic risks (he was right), but he had no problem at all with his girlfriend spending time with a man he hated (even when they had specifically gone somewhere that is inherently romantic like The Orient Express) as long as it was safe. He was amused by her concern about his reaction. As long as she was safe, she didn’t have to explain. Being the bait for a Skovox Blitzer? No. Hell No. Unacceptable. Running off with a man he hates to spend at least one night on one of the most romantic trains ever? Yeah, that’s fine. That was amusing and nothing he was going to try to stop.

Danny himself recognized that the only thing to do about his girlfriend running around with this “Time Lord” he hated was to accept it as long as she promised not to lie if he was going to put her in mortal peril. Danny seemed to know in Mummy on the Orient Express that if he wanted to date Clara, he was stuck with the pompous ass who would always demean and dismiss him as a PE teacher. They were a package.

__________

After Ashildr explained to how they TOGETHER were The Hybrid, Twelve tries to cheat Clara’s death with a memory wipe.

Clara won’t allow it.

Clara, a human, somehow manages to reverse the way the memory wipe device works. Instead of erasing her memory it erases his.

He knows something is wrong. He knows he’s forgotten someone. He still can’t remember Clara specifically.

Clara and Ashildr, in a TARDIS Clara should not be able to operate, leave. Just like in the lyrics to La Habanera, Clara beat her wings, broke the cage, and flew away.

Even though Twelve can’t remember Clara Oswald, he seems to still retain her humanity.

Eleven was at times terrifying. By the end, he was insincere more then he wasn’t. He was at times utterly terrifying in both Season 6 and in Season 7.

Twelve, in contrast, was ALWAYS not quite right. He was too human.

Does anyone really think Twelve could have done what Eleven did at the end of The Rebel Flesh? No. Even upon a second viewing knowing Eleven wasn’t trying to hurt Amy but was panicking and desperately trying to wake her up so he could rescue her, does anyone really think Twelve could have violently slammed a companion into a wall and hollered hostilely in her face? No.

Twelve couldn’t have done it because CLARA couldn’t have done it.

Look at Twelve in season 10. He’s a teacher. He didn’t need Clara’s “tact” cards when Bill asked him what was going on at the end of Extremis. He somehow REMEMBERED how to tell someone, ahem… very bad news. Clara would have been proud. He REMEMBERED how to comfort children in Thin Ice just like Clara would.

He has forgotten the specifics of Clara because he had to, but he couldn’t forget her personality, her kindness, her love of children. She is still a part of him.

So yes, I think Clara was the most important character in The Doctor’s entire existence.

I think they loved each other beyond what they could understand.

But I do NOT think they were EVER in romantic love.

She was The Impossible Girl.

I think their love was impossible.

When Clara walked into The Doctor’s Time Stream, I think she and he became Fraternal Twins.

Again, they never realized this. Ashildr had to explain how the two of them together were The Hybrid. But it fits the dynamic of their relationship. They would both die for each other. They bicker constantly. She bosses him around. There is NOTHING that one could do that could make the other leave.

I have lost count of the number of times their relationship was described as unhealthy or disfunctional. It reads quite differently if Twelve is Clara’s annoying bratty brother. Nearly every interaction going back to Deep Breath works if he perceives her as his sister and best friend and he’s always around annoying her because they used to do everything together but now she’s got a social life while he doesn’t.

I think they were The Hybrid because they were, on a deep psychological level, fraternal twins.

And I think they both perceived Clara as being the one who was a few minutes “older”.

Thoughts?

____________________ (*I like to imagine that Victorian Clara was calling herself “Becky Montague” because I find the reference to Vanity Fair funny. Victorian Clara and Vanity Fair’s Becky Sharp were social climbers, and Victorian Clara wound up literally climbing stairs for a social reason. Victorian Clara was sharp as a tack, but unlike nanny Becky Sharp, she cared deeply for her charges. Plus, one of Becky Sharp’s charges was named “Amelia”. It’s just too on the nose.)

#nevermore #clara oswald #twelfth doctor #oswelve #doctor who #danny pink #12th doctor #doctor who meta #jenna coleman #peter capaldi

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whitewolfofwinterfell · 8 years ago

Note

Hey, I just read your meta on amy and eleven and omg it was beautiful. Do you have any thought on twelve/clara though ?

Hey there! Aw, thank you so much. I’m so glad you liked it. Eleven and Amy are one of my ultimate OTP’s so I loved writing it so much.

I actually stopped watching the show at the end of season 8, so my thoughts on Twelve and Clara won’t be nearly as developed or in-depth as they were for Eleven and Amy. Having said this, I’m more than happy to share my thoughts with you, but they will only be based upon what I know of them from season 8.

Twelve and Clara actually have a lot of parallels with Eleven and Amy, but particularly regarding the whole what are they question. Are they friends, family or more? Are their feelings for one another platonic or romantic? Personally, I would define their relationship as ‘it’s complicated’, because boy, is it complicated. There is, however, an easy way to simplify it.

With Eleven, things for Clara were completely uncomplicated. She was instantly taken with him, she respected him, was in awe of him, she utterly adored him. There was never any question of that from her, Eleven or us as the audience. But then the Doctor regenerated.

Clara’s reaction to it was negative, to say the least. She was confused, resistant and she was grieving. That’s what’s often taken for-granted when the Doctor regenerates - although he doesn’t technically die, the Doctor he is at that particular time does die. The Doctor didn’t just regenerate into Twelve, Eleven died and Clara lost him. She was lucky enough to have one final phone call from him, but she never got to see him again, he was gone. Forever. She needed time to deal with that and to process it, which is fair and reasonable, but there was almost a feeling of hostility that was born from that moment that continued to bleed into Clara’s relationship with Twelve in season 8.

It’s a difficult subject to analyse and interpret, because the only comparison we have to draw on is Nine’s regeneration into Ten at the end of season 1 and Rose’s reaction to it. In the beginning she had a somewhat similar reaction to Clara: confusion, reluctance, resistance, sadness. She felt a sense of loss, just as Clara did, but I think the main difference is that Rose came to accept and realise that the Doctor was still the Doctor naturally. She saw it herself. She saw the Doctor in Ten, could feel that he was still there with her and when she realised that her behaviour towards Ten and her feelings for him were exactly the same as they were with Nine. That didn’t happen with Clara.

No matter what he said or did Clara just couldn’t see the Doctor in Twelve and Twelve even said himself:

“You look at me and you can’t see me. Have you any idea what that’s like? I’m not on the phone I’m right here. Standing in front of you. Please, just see me.��

The reason that Clara accepted the Doctor’s regeneration and finally embraced Twelve, is because Eleven told her to.

“The man you are with right now, the man I hope you are with, believe me he is more scared than anything you can imagine right now. And he needs you.”

The fact that Clara needed to speak to Eleven to hear those words from him to accept Twelve makes me wonder what would’ve happened if Eleven had never made that phone call. Also, Clara didn’t swing right back to being how she was with the Doctor before, her behaviour seemed different (not in a negative way, just different) and her feelings definitely were. I strongly believe Clara had romantic feelings for Eleven, but after regeneration that seemed to be gone. Clara even said herself in a conversation with Jenny:

“If Vastra changed, if she was different, if she wasn’t the person you liked…”

That made it clear how Clara felt about Twelve. She didn’t see the Doctor, she saw not Eleven. He wasn’t the person she liked anymore, he wasn’t the person she loved anymore. In a conversation Vastra actually called Clara out on that. Here are some important snippets:

“He looked like your dashing young gentleman friend. Your lover, even. But he is the Doctor. He has walked this universe for centuries untold, he has seen stars fall to dust. You might as well flirt with a mountain range.”

She also goes on to make a point that Eleven looking young and flirting with Clara was for everyone, not her. It was something he did to be accepted.

“I wear a veil to keep from view what many are pleased to call my disfigurement. I do not wear it as a courtesy to such people, but as a judgement on the quality of their hearts. The Doctor regenerated in your presence. The young man disappeared, the veil lifted. He trusted you. Are you judging him?”

This that Vastra said makes a very important point, and points out one very fundamental thing that Clara didn’t seem to understand. The Doctor is the Doctor. Regardless of whether he’s Nine, Ten, Eleven, Twelve or any other Doctor before him, he is still the Doctor. But Clara only saw Eleven and the version of him she chose to see. His young appearance and energetic and playful spirit blinded her to who the Doctor really is. He’s a centuries old Timelord, with two hearts, he’s witnessed things that no one else has before, he is wiser and more knowledgeable than anyone she could ever hope to meet. He was not merely some young, handsome, quirky young man with a special box who whisked her away on adventures and gave her flirtatious stares. But that is who she thought he was and when he wasn’t, she didn’t like it. What’s more important is that as Vastra said, the Doctor trusted her. Trusted her to always be a faithful and loyal companion and friend, and although she was in terms of the fact that she never left him, she did temporarily abandon him, even if it was only emotionally.

I bet you wonder why I’m focusing on the regeneration much, but the reason is because this one event happened right at the very beginning of their meeting and I really think it shaped their relationship and essentially created a lot of the issues that followed them throughout season 8.

(I should also like to mention that although this seems so negative so far, I’m certainly not bashing Twelve and Clara’s relationship, which I consider to be so special and important. The positives, will be coming, I can assure you of that.)

So now that I’ve addressed the issues with the regeneration, I can get onto the ongoing issues I believe it created. In Twelve it created a deep rooted insecurity that made him feel unloved and unworthy of Clara. He knew how much she adored Eleven and he wasn’t that person anymore, through no choice of his own. It’s important to remember this: the Doctor never wants to regenerate. He doesn’t want to have to keep ‘dying’ and coming back as a completely new person that he has to get to know all over again and who the people around him have to reestablish a bond with again. Just think about how hard and emotionally exhausting it is to keep track of who you are throughout your life, to maintain friendships as you evolve and now imagine how much harder it would be if you were literally changing into someone different. That’s what the Doctor goes through all the time. Do you think he wants to? Of course not. He does it to stay alive, that’s the only reason. So bearing that in mind, do you really think the Doctor wanted to become Twelve? As Eleven he was young, he was handsome, he was fun-loving, but more importantly he was a person that Clara loved. So to lose that and have to become someone he never wanted or chose to be, was inevitably going to be difficult for him. In addition, regeneration is generally a hard slog, there’s a period of disorientation, confusion and adjustment. Then on top of all that, Clara essentially rejected the “new” him and changed towards him. That must’ve been so incredibly painful for him and something I don’t feel like he truly got over. Twelve is already different from Eleven and also Ten, in the way he handles his emotions. He’s a lot more closed off emotionally, so for Clara to hurt him like that so early on, it only closed him off even more since it made him doubt the one person he thought he could trust. Throughout season 8, Twelve seemed to keep Clara at a distance, more so than Eleven ever did and even though he always had Clara I couldn’t help but feel that most of the time he was alone. It’s hard to explain or justify why I felt this way, but I just saw a man who was carrying the heavy burden of constant heartache around with him and I think that’s because he wanted his relationship with Clara to be different. To be how it was before his regeneration.

As for Clara, I think that after receiving the phone call from Eleven she did accept Twelve as being the Doctor. She proved that she wasn’t the shallow person she appeared to be in 8x01 when she rejected him based on the fact he was older with grey hair and wrinkles. She continued to travel with him, to be his friend, to be the faithful companion the Doctor always expected her to be. But…it felt like there was always a sense of regret and sadness that Eleven was gone and Twelve was in his place, because I think in her mind she saw them as being separate people. I saw that in her relationship with Danny. Of course, the number of episodes she had with Eleven were limited so there wasn’t enough time for Clara to develop an outside relationship. Even still, it’s intriguing to me that she only seemed interested in maintaining a normal life on earth and engaging in a relationship after Eleven was gone. I can’t help but think that if Eleven had still been with her, she never would’ve fallen in love with Danny because she wouldn’t have even allowed herself to be in a position to because her heart would be with Eleven. And that was Clara’s issue: she was in love with Eleven and didn’t know how to feel or what to do once he regenerated. It makes sense, because it is confusing. Physically the Doctor had turned into an old man, affecting the attraction she had for him when he was Eleven and attraction is a part of the romantic feelings she had, so without it could it really be considered romantic love anymore? Then there’s the personality changes and let’s face it the jump from Eleven to Twelve was the biggest change in terms of both looks and personality that had or has happened so far. So there’s not just the issue of does she fancy him, but does she even like him? Then there’s the added confusion of knowing that technically Twelve is still Eleven, that he was still the Doctor, with the same memories and experiences. All of this must’ve been going through Clara’s head and driving her crazy, because she couldn’t decipher how the hell she was feeling and furthermore, she didn’t know how she should be feeling.

This dynamic is what is at the core of Twelve and Clara, I think, and is what makes them so interesting. It’s that whole idea of them being in love with each other in a very true and pure way, but circumstances have changed and it’s no longer right. Of course, from the Doctor’s perspective it never would’ve been right because despite outward appearances he is always aware that he’s over 900 years old and I don’t think he would morally engage in a relationship with a human so much younger than him. Nevertheless, the point is that as Eleven he felt comfortable flirting with Clara and perhaps indulging in more of the romance because he looked young, but as Twelve he could no longer do that. He even said to Clara, “I’m not your boyfriend”. Why did he say that? A person would only say that to someone if they knew that there were romantic undertones to their relationship that needed to be addressed and avoided. He was essentially telling her, “Whatever might have been between us, whatever we felt before, nothing came of it and now nothing can.” To me, that was Twelve trying to save his own feelings, of drawing a line in the sand and trying to accept that nothing more could ever happen between him and Clara. And that was a constant source of pain for him, particularly since I think that he fell completely in love with Clara as Twelve.

I already touched upon the idea of the Doctor imprinting on the first face he sees after regeneration in my meta about Eleven and Amy, and “the first face this face saw” bond is a canon aspect of Eleven and Amy’s relationship, but it’s also an important element of Twelve and Clara’s relationship too. Now, this is a completely personal opinion that’s likely affected by the fact that Eleven and Amy are my OTP, but I didn’t interpret Eleven to be in love with Clara. He adored her, she was his friend, he valued her, he enjoyed flirting with her and I also think he liked knowing that she felt romantically towards him, but I believe that’s where it ended. The Doctor falling in love with Clara didn’t come until Twelve. In season 8, I saw that Clara meant everything to Twelve, even if Clara didn’t (which she often didn’t) and I saw a man that was heavily invested in everything to do with her, even more so than Eleven was. Why? Because she was the first face his face saw. No one can convince me that anyone other than Amy Pond was the most important person in the universe to Eleven and likewise, no one can convince me that anyone other than Clara Oswald was the most important person in the universe to Twelve. Clara is the person Twelve refused to leave behind, she’s the one he invested everything in, she’s the one whose safety he put above anything and everything.

I think at times during season 8 Twelve’s love for Clara could easily have been interpreted as unrequited, but as the season went on I began to see that despite her relationship with Danny or life on earth, Clara was still very much clinging to the Doctor. We were made to believe that Clara accepted Twelve by the end of 8x01, but she didn’t. It was a process that I felt took place across the entirety of season 8 and with each day she was with him, she grew to know the new parts of Twelve, but also caught sight of the old parts of Eleven. This enabled her to fall in love with him all over again, not as Eleven this time or even Twelve, but as the Doctor. And that is another special aspect of Twelve and Clara’s relationship - by experiencing the regeneration process Clara got to know the Doctor more deeply, because she didn’t know just one version of the Doctor, but two. Much the same as River, who has met three versions of him, it strengthens their love for the Doctor because it’s a more real perception of who he is. Whether he likes it or not, regeneration and every generation from the First Doctor up to the Twelfth Doctor is a part of The Doctor and it’s important to know and understand that.

It saddens me that I can’t go even further with this, because I know Twelve and Clara’s relationship developed even more in season 9 and became even more profound and multi-layered. However, I can still confidently say that my true opinion on Twelve and Clara is that their relationship, like every relationship between the Doctor and his companions, is utterly unique and special. Although I think they had more issues than perhaps any other Doctor and companion before them, they had an incredibly special bond and there was such an immense amount of love between them. Was that love romantic? I believe aspects of it were. But due to the complicated circumstances, I don’t think their romantic feelings would’ve ever been enough for them to act on it. Even still, they understood and realised that they needed each other, so they pushed that aside. That’s how important they were to each other. So important that they didn’t care to analyse what they were or how they felt, they just knew they wanted and needed each other in their lives. That’s why I think rather than trying to label what they felt for each other or put them in a box, it’s more fitting to acknowledge that they loved each so other deeply and unconditionally, and that it kept them together against all the odds for a long time.

#answered #doctor who #twelve x clara #whouffaldi #my meta #dw meta

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isagrimorie · 6 years ago

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I always get thrown off when the Doctor (Ten, Eleven, Twelve, even Thirteen) confesses their love to anyone easily.

Canonically, getting the Doctor to say 'I love you' is like pulling teeth from a very stubborn mule.

Ten couldn't say it to Rose when he was burning up the sun and it was the last time (he thought) he would see Rose. It took a clone version of him to say so and commit.

Eleven couldn’t say it right that River developed a complex about it that it took the Doctor’s twelfth regeneration to fix.

Twelve was trapped in a hellscape punching through a wall of diamond for four and a half billion years to save Clara’s life, and the most Twelve could manage is he had a ‘duty of care’.

Thirteen’s friendlier but she’s also one of the most closed off Doctors, she might be honest when asked, but she also immediately wanted to leave when she realized how much she shared in The Woman Who Fell to Earth.

I mean, even the Master/Missy is running around trying to get the Doctor’s attention, it’s so known to everyone in Gallifrey that when the Master turned up in the Rani’s neck of the woods, she knew it’s because of the Doctor.

So, yeah, the Doctor letting slip an ‘I love you’ without being skittish about it throws me out. There are exceptions, like in Husbands if River Song, where that was the point in the Doctor’s life where he learned all about endings and saying things. And even then Twelve’s ‘I love you ‘ moment was implied.

The Doctor is more action than saying things, which is ironic for someone who you can’t shut-up.

#thinky thoughts #the doctor #doctor who #is crap at using their words #to say how much they love someone #romantic stylez

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isagrimorie · 6 years ago

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January Meme - January 2

"Talk about Doctor/Companion relationships! Which are your favorite? What do you enjoy about them?" for @wheatear

Hands down, my favorite Doctor-Companion relationship are between Ten and Donna, and Twelve and Bill with several flavors in between. And, in some ways I think it worked out this way especially since I’ve thought since series 9, that Ten and Twelve’s stories are in conversation with each other.

For most interesting, I think this goes to Twelve and Clara for how fascinating their entire run together was. During series 7, I thought Clara was short changed since she was stuck between the Ponds leaving and the 50th Anniversary. It was during series 8 where I think Clara’s true personality emerged.

I’ve sort of revised my thoughts on Moffat, I still think there are still somethings about his writing that bear criticisms, just like any showrunner, and one of the things is how he uses characters as plot devices.

(I don’t mean the Impossible Girl thing, its how Moffat changes fundamental things about characters: Like Clara, of all Companions, wouldn’t have blinked at Eleven changing to Twelve; or the First Doctor is a Sexist (no doubt he was because of his time but the First Doctor themselves weren’t that sledgehammer-y sexist. One or two jokes was enough but hammering that over and over was what crossed the line IMO.).

During the first run of series 8, I was put off by how much Clara and Twelve were constantly at odds but it was during my full rewatch for Twelve’s run that I appreciated what Moffat was trying to accomplish. I am not a fan of Kill the Moon but I loved the moment when Clara read Twelve the riot act. I love how it shifted things between them and Twelve actually stopped being condescending. He stopped the business of making Clara carry the emotional burden of caring for other people.

In the same measure, it gave Clara to explore what its like to be the Doctor, and how this lead to her end.

Clara played a crucial role in the Doctor’s (and not just Twelve) development.

The next fun group is Nine, Rose, and Jack because of how formative they are for me.

For most underrated it goes to Martha and the Doctors (because I feel like Martha should be a constant in the Doctor’s lives). I am waiting for the phone call from Martha!

The most family goes to the Doctor and the Ponds (Amy, Roranicus Pond, and of course, even though I don’t consider her a Companion, Melody Pond aka River Song).

Then my favorites:

Ten and Donna won my heart because of how they developed and started, and for how fantastic David Tennant and Catherine Tate’s chemistry was. They sparked and seemed to enjoy working with each other, so much so they’ve continually sought out projects so they can continue working with each other.

I absolutely loved how much fun Ten and Donna had with each other and how, after the High Drama with Rose, and then with the unfortunate encroaching of angst on Martha’s time and the subsequent High Key Dramatics of the Doctor’s Ex, the Time Lord Formerly Known As the Master— Donna was a welcome relief.

She wanted nothing more but to travel with the Doctor, because Donna’s been traveling by herself but the Bug bit her hard and she’s looking for More.

They’re clear on being friends with no romantic attachments at all (except of course, that’s not stopping people from shipping! For me, I’d rather an unrequited something from Ten to Donna). I love that Donna’s willing to share the burden of the Fires of Pompeii and always, always expecting better from the Doctor. And the Doctor being there in times of crisis, offering comfort.

It’s why it’s such a betrayal for the audience as we watch Ten take away the best parts of Donna.

Yes, she would die but she wanted to die as herself. This part is exactly the moment in discussion with Twelve’s story with Clara, and later with Bill.

And this leads directly to Twelve and Bill. For me Bill is exactly the Companion Twelve needed during that time and I’m still sad Bill, like Donna and Martha are One Season Companions. Pearl Mackie is such a charismatic actor and her chemistry with Peter Capaldi fit very well with his Doctor at that point of his life.

Bill isn’t afraid to question and go to the real heart of things: ‘Have you killed anyone before?’ It’s a necessary question and early!Twelve wouldn’t have the patience to answer. Bill came into Twelve’s life exactly at the right time, and there was such great rapport built over time. Bill wasn’t a Companion Twelve whisked away on a whim.

Twelve considered making Bill his Companion very carefully, it’s the steps Thirteen would take with her current team. Also, I love how Bill was coded, several times, as someone the Doctor thought of as their granddaughter. First during Bill’s first episode and the photo of Susan faded into Bill, and then when Bill introduced the Doctor to her friends, and last with Testimony and the general outline of Bill reminded me, and the First Doctor, I think, somehow of Susan’s silhouette.

I am forever sad that Bill’s wistful that ‘I hope we laugh at this loads’ and Twelve’s wistful, ‘Be here when I get back’ was true because I really miss them. I hope Bill returns for Thirteen’s run because I’m convinced that’s why, despite being friendlier and calling them fam, she’s holding Team TARDIS at arms length.

There’s an easiness in Donna and Bill that really, really makes me love them and their dynamic with their respective Doctors.

#long post #doctor who #bill pott #donna noble #twelfth doctor #january meme 2019 #january talking meme

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