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hypokeimena · 2 years ago

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this post is EXTREMELY good. as a broad overview of the classics aspect of this, i don't think necessarily think there are any specific texts missing (though if anyone wants to disagree with a more specific reclist PLEASE feel free!), but i do think having a broad sense of what themes and ideas exactly tzm is playing with re: classics is helpful!

generally: the idea of "classical civilization" is part of what's being played with. part of the humor of tzm's switching registers - making memes in the same breath as references to classical or biblical literary traditions - is interrogating what gets the cultural weight of being classical, of having socio-cultural authority and the weight of tradition. think of john's interactions with Wake in Harrow - he makes jokes about her name, passing implicit judgment on BoE 'ancient' traditions by comparing them to Evanescence lyrics, as if that makes them intrinsically sillier than his own none pizza references or any less serious than his 'higher-brow' references.

the iliad (and odyssey!) are both good stories but if you look at a list of character names you'll probably get what you need to for tlt purposes.

more specifically: as ave references above, john positions himself as a greek 'tragic hero' so having a sense for what that framework implies might be helpful (does a tragic hero have agency? are his actions divinely determined? is he accountable for his actions? how do both of these interact with ideas about who gets to enact violence and to what ends?) i am not a tragedian (or, frankly, a hellenist) but if you want to check some out, i personally like aeschylus' oresteia (<- has cursed houses) and sophocles' antigone (<- has tombs in it). anne carson's translations are very popular and easy to find, and she's done both plays.

i think some of what's going on with ancient rome is much more interesting,* but i think a lot of what's interesting is going on with historical rather than literary references.** so it's probably good to know, for example, what a lictor or a mithraeum is. but probably what's more important than knowing what those are is knowing what that indicates. so, a lictor was the bodyguard to roman officials who had official state power; their sign of authority was a bundle of sticks with which they were allowed to attack or kill those who overstepped. that tells you something about how John is positioning his lyctors relative to himself. but it's also worth knowing that the bundle of sticks is called a fasces and is directly linked to... the rise (and aesthetics) of 20th century political fascist movements. invoking these aesthetics is not value neutral (and would not be value neutral to john). it's particularly notable that john styles himself 'john gaius' and as emperor/his demesne as an empire, rather than using other terminology from various other classical traditions (hegemony, 'leagues'/alliances, republics were all options); it's specifically rome being evoked here, i think, rather than (but perhaps as analogy to) other later empires. (further reading: Chapoutot (2016). Greeks, Romans, and Germans: How the Nazis Usurped Europe’s Classical Past <- cannot remember how ~academic~ this book is but iirc it's good)

re: roman imperial history, i hate to be like "roman military history :)" because i am not that man but rome was a geographically expansionist military empire which supported its military by taking land and giving bits of it to soldiers after they served. eventually, you run out of land AND you can't support enough soldiers to cover the territory you already have. rome solved this by intermittently reconsolidating power and occasionally losing bits of territory at its edge and then eventually by splitting into two administrative zones with less territory to cover etc etc, but that didn't work forever and it's notable that if you kill a planet to conquer it you don't really have that as an option anymore. (further reading: ugh i don't have anything super specific. maybe "a history of the roman people", ward heichelheim & yao)

religiously, i think the invocation of a mithraeum is fascinating here; it pulls on all of these (now discredited? <- active academic debate) ideas about ~mystery religions~ and secret initiatory cults (that's not what cult meant in the ancient world but it means that today and we/john are functioning in that world). the cult of mithras was something like a mix between an social/eating club, a fraternity, and a "religion"; it's also notable because mithras was seen as a foreign god (so there's stuff going on with how the foreign gets narrativized as it is folded into the imperial core).

not for nothing, but if absolutely nothing else it's essential to understand the mechanisms by which christianity moved from a weird little religion mostly doing its own thing to becoming an active contributor to the violence and exploitation of empire. unfortunately this field (the historiography of early christianity) largely pisses me (<- also a jew) off and i cannot recommend anything specific to read off the top of my head but I think you can look at changes in christian theology prior to 300 and post ~400. like. looking at religion as a tool of imperial control but also empire as a tool of religion is what i am getting at here.

You've talked a lot about lolita in terms of how it relates to tlt, and as possibly tumblrs premier tlt scholar are there any other works that you think it would be important to read to get the most out of reading or rereading tlt?

oh god!! okay well off the top of my head:

i assume this is a given, but, like, Annabel Lee. some of Poe’s other poetry hits similar beats to that one – The City in the Sea, The Sleeper, Lenore are a few examples, and his short story The Fall of the House of Usher has a woman with a very similar feel to his poetic muses (and frankly a similar feel to Alecto). not required reading ofc but it pads out the kind of touchstones Nabokov + Muir tap into!

i haven��t actually read Homestuck lol but i’ve heard that Homestuck helps, like, a lot (i really really should read Homestuck)

i think a decent fluency in classics is probably also helpful. which i do not have, lmao. but i WOULD recommend reading Homer's Iliad, if only for the fact that the Iliad is very explicitly referenced at multiple points in Gideon the Ninth and continues to thematically lurk throughout Harrow and Nona in these rhetorical gestures made towards heroism + tragedy (i believe Muir once talked about John as conceiving of and constructing himself as a classically tragic figure, which – interesting!!).

there’s absolutely some christian theological dimensions that fly right over my head (i’m jewish, lmao), but a working knowledge of the christian easter story is probably like the minimum you need to get how that’s being played around with in-text.

the opening of Alecto references the opening of Dante’s Inferno such that it’s fair to speculate that Alecto will develop itself in part around Dante (and, considering the role that Dante plays in Lolita, I imagine around Beatrice), so the Divine Comedy is a good one to have a feel for.

Don Quixote! one of my favourite things about Gideon the Ninth in particular is the fact that ‘Dulcinea’ is named in reference to Cervantes’ Dulcinea of Toboso, a wholly imagined woman essential to Don Quixote’s false image of chivalry, representative of spanish nationhood during a time of imperialist conquest, etc etc etc. it does a lot with the gendered paradigms being prodded at in Gideon, especially wrt how they relate back to ideologies necessary to the social structuring of imperialism. i really should put together an essay about Don Quixote and Gideon alongside one another tbh someone ask me about that sometime

i’m sure i’m missing some lmao but these are the ones i can remember! i also have a bunch of texts that i just think hold interesting discursive relationships to tlt, even if i can’t fairly make a case for being consciously present in the text: Samuel Taylor Coleridge’s Christabel, Sheridan le Fanu’s Carmilla, Tennessee Williams’ A Streetcar Named Desire are the Big Three.

#i have mixed anne carson feelings but that's me being professionally nitpicky & her translations are definitely more accessible than others.#(both easy to find and easy to read)#*says the romanist. **says the ancient historian.#me to ave: can i talk about classics on your post it won't be long. <- me: unable to shut up & completely unsure how much info to include.#also i'm sure i forgot important things that just felt obvious to me but.#sorry ave.#at least john probably doesn't have to deal with currency debasement i guess.#long /#classics #ninth tag

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werewolfetone · 1 year ago

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Honey I'm really sorry but while you were out I found a nest of WASPs in the back garden and as I was going in to get chemicals to deal with it I accidentally left the door open and a WASP got into the house and now he's flying around calling our air friar a romanist while the air friar yells at him about heresy

#jory.txt

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irithnova · 1 year ago

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Notes on Anitismo - The Ancient Religion of the Philippines by Isabelo de los Reyes.

Keep in mind - this was written a while back.

Ancient Chronicles written by the Jesuit hispanic Friars state that at the that the first spaniards set foot in the Philippines from the coast of visayas to Manila there was a considerable population of Muslim converts

This was especially true for Mindanao due to conversion by Islamic teachers from Borneo

De los Reyes argues that because of this, to find native Filipino religion at its purest, we must look to the North

Distinguishing native religion without outside influence such as from Islam, Hinduism, Christianity etc can be tricky

However he argues that the traces of Native Filipino religion can be found in the stories superstitions and advice that belong to various Filipino ethnic groups (Tagalogs, Bicolanos, Zambalenos etc)

From the South of the country in Mindanao to the extreme North like Luzon, De los Reyes argues then native Filipino religion was consistent

This religion was Anitism or the Cult of Anito, meaning souls of the ancestors.

Anitism is not a monolithic religion and hosts a broad pantheon ranging from Gods to animals, nature, elements and space.

The Philippines had its own modern spiritism and De los Reyes argues this may have been the origins of the cults of "Romanist Saints" (Catholic saints) in the Philippines. By this I think he means that Filipino spirituality influenced how Filipinos proceeded with Catholic worship.

The oldest chronicles about the Philippines can be found in various museums and libraries (such as the National Library of Madrid, Covenant of St Augustine in Manila)

We can follow these chronicles, from when the Jesuit Pedro Quirino provided news of religion in the Philippines in 1604, followed by reproductions by others like the Jesuit Colin in 1663 and others such as Fr. Morga, Gonzalez de Mendoza, Aduarte etc.

Fr Morga said that Filipinos practised Anitism in certain regions like Camarines and Cagayan.

Some traditions would say that Manila and its regions were not originally native to the island - they were from Malayan islands and other remote areas.

Before the Spaniards arrived, Islamic teachers from Borneo came to preach and interacted with the locals

Their teachings and beliefs spread quickly throughout the Philippines

Fr. Grijalva writes that they (Filipinos) started adopting their traditions and took on their names.

De Los Reyes argues that Spanish conquistadors' arrival/conquest was delayed because Filipinos were already familiar with various religions and beliefs and also because of the hands of Datu Lapu Lapu. What I believe he is arguing is that Datu Lapu Lapu and the previous exposure Filipinos had to different religions at first delayed Spanish influence from spreading so quickly.

Other islanders who weren't under the control of the government in the Philippines has their beliefs influenced by religious preachers who travelled to them from the Straits of Malacca and the Red Sea.

An account, dated April 20th 1572 (preserved in the archives of India) which is from the conquest of Luzon details "In these towns, closest to the sea, they do not eat any pork, which the moors taught them. But if you ask them, they say they do not know Muhammed or his law." This account was reproduced by Wenceslao Retana.

In actuality, very few Filipinos could understand/read the teachings of the Koran despite the Islamic influence.

In Filipino traditions, reverence and worship was given to nature and the elements, and this was usually consistent throughout the islands.

Native Filipino religion beliefs include elements, animals, stars and ancestors.

Filipino religion in Manila and nearby areas was a mixture or Anitism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Islam brought by the Malays of Borneo.

Vocabulary included Sanskrit and Malay terms such as Bathala, meaning Lord.

However these terms are not used in Northern provinces.

De Los Reyes argues that Itnegs and other mountain tribes conserved and maintained the purest form of Filipino religion

In the Ilocos, Cagayan, Isabela and other provinces of Northern Luzon, native Filipino religion was more prevalent

Hindus and Buddhists converted many in Java and Malaysia.

However Muslim influence became dominant in 1478 - 60 years before the Dutch invasion.

According to Javanese legends, Hindus arrives in Java 78 years before Christ.

The first Malays came from the Minangkabau river region to establish cities in Malacca , Ojohor and Singapore in the 12th century, as per Malacca records.

In the 13th, 14th and 15th centuries, there were various Malaysian emigrations reaching the Philippines

De Los Reyes argues that Filipinos may have also populated the islands of Malaysia, and emigrations could have originated from strong winds coming down from the North.

The first Spaniards found the son of Lakandula, King of Manila, when they went to Borneo.

The emperor's master of ceremonies from Japan (Mr Fujita) argued that emigration likely came from the north and that Filipinos may have some relations to the Japanese.

According to Geographers and Historians of the Mariana Islands, what De Los Reyes calls the "know it all Spanish" - had no idea about interesting ruins found in Oceania, one of which was a prehistoric statue that was being held in the British museum.

He argues there may be hidden megaliths, artefacts, and remnants of lost civilisation in the Philippines, as seen in various locations such as : Butacan caves, Pangibalon Hill, Madias de Iloilo and Nasso.

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lionofchaeronea · 1 year ago

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For a long time--the better part of a decade, in fact--I've grappled with the question: "In my heart of hearts, am I a Hellenist or a Romanist?" Finally, I've decided that the correct answer is "Yes".

#personal #ramblings #tagamemnon

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comfycel · 2 years ago

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not to get romanists hopes up but what if this is the last shot of roman saying goodbye to waystar/the mess etc

#probably not but hey we can only hope #roman roy #succession

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prouvaireafterdark · 2 years ago

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Practical Ethics || Chapter One

I dedicate this fic to my beloved enablers and Armand whisperers (you know who you are). This fic would not exist without the tremendous support and ideas you’ve given me over the last few months and I love you all very much for it. I really hope you enjoy this <3

So, without further ado, I present to you the first installment of an Ethics Professor Louis AU, as told by the grad student Armand.

Also on AO3!

***

When Armand sweeps into Dr. du Lac’s graduate level Ethics course on the second day of class, he finds his seat in the center of the small lecture hall’s first row already taken.

The blonde man occupying it, Armand notices, is older than the average student, perhaps in his early thirties, and the desk he’s stolen is totally devoid of notes, books, or a laptop. Dressed in a designer leather jacket, tight black jeans, and platformed Doc Martens, he looks like he’s attempting to channel his inner rockstar. The man’s hair has also been pulled back into a low ponytail that would make anyone else look like a founding father, but in combination with his striking jawline and devastating profile, Armand finds it infuriatingly charming in spite of his considerable annoyance.

Armand had chosen this seat carefully, you see, as he had just endured a harrowing semester as research assistant to Dr. de Romanus—a Romanist, coincidentally, whom Armand had met in Venice, and who had encouraged him to move all the way to San Francisco to complete his doctorate now that he was teaching in the Religion and Philosophy department after the unfortunate defunding of the university’s Classics program. Currently staring down the barrel of another semester working with Dr. de Romanus, Armand is keen on seizing any opportunity he can find to serve under someone with a less… draconian approach to pedagogy in the future. Dr. du Lac seems a more promising prospect than the ancient Dr. Talbot by about a mile, and so the stakes for making a good impression are quite high.

Armand’s eyes narrow as he approaches.

“Excuse me,” he says, standing up as tall and imperious as he can as he stops beside the blonde man. “You’re in my seat.”

“Am I?” the man asks, his English faintly accented. French, definitely, but not Parisian, if Armand recalls from his own considerable time spent living in the city—a regional dialect, he would guess. The generous curve of the man’s mouth and the tilt of his head turn mean all of a sudden as he continues, “Apologies, monsieur. I did not see your name on it.”

The man makes no move to find a different seat, and in fact settles more fully into it, his spine slumped casually against its cushioned back like he could drop off and take a nap at any moment.

Indignant rage simmers beneath the surface of Armand’s skin, mingled with the equally infuriating attraction he feels as an errant blonde curl comes loose from the man’s ponytail, falling over the curve of his cheek when his head tips drowsily forward.

Well, that decides it, Armand thinks to himself. I must destroy him.

Out of spite, Armand chooses the seat next to him, spreading out his folder of meticulously highlighted and annotated readings across the meager desk space this lecture hall provides, just past the point where the edges of his papers brush the blonde man’s arm where it lies on the armrest. He can almost feel the man’s answering glare like a physical thing against the side of his face, but Armand simply feigns ignorance and busies himself with unlocking his iPad to get ready to take notes.

Dr. Louis de Pointe du Lac enters the classroom then, dressed impeccably as always in a finely tailored suit—a sophisticated heather gray tartan this afternoon. Though Armand appreciates the view, he struggles to comprehend how someone living on a philosophy professor’s salary at a small liberal arts college can afford to indulge such exquisite tastes.

Out of the corner of his eye, he sees the blonde man sit up straighter, his attention captivated by the professor as he sets up his notes at the podium in front of the room.

The man can’t be blamed for that, Armand supposes. In his opinion, Dr. du Lac is by far the most handsome professor who works here, and if the chili pepper on his Rate My Professors is any indication, most of his peers agree.

“Alright, everyone. Let’s get started,” Dr. du Lac says with a kind smile and a clap of his hands to gather their attention, taking a moment first to review the names of all his students as he takes attendance before settling in to give his lecture.

Armand does his best to stay focused on the lesson, diligently taking notes on his iPad as Dr. du Lac writes on the board, and even asking and answering questions when the opportunities present themselves. Inevitably, however, he finds his attention drawn to the man sitting beside him.

The man—Lestat, he’s learned from Dr. du Lac’s roll call—seems incapable of doing three things: sitting still, taking his eyes off the professor for longer than a microsecond, and taking any notes whatsoever.

An expensive-looking leather bound journal now sits open on his desk, but he has yet to write down a single word beyond his own name in elegant, looping script. In fact, the only time Lestat even lifts his ridiculous fountain pen off the desk throughout the entire lecture is to rest the end of it against his full bottom lip as his eyes track Dr. du Lac’s every movement, his tongue occasionally peeking out of his mouth to swirl around the metal tip.

Several weeks pass this way—Armand and Lestat stubbornly sitting side by side, each focused entirely on their professor but with seemingly very different goals. He’s noticed that Lestat is always the last person to leave the lecture hall, lingering around for a private word with Dr. du Lac once everyone else has gone. Armand even saw Lestat follow the professor to his car in the parking lot once, but he was running late for a meeting with Dr. de Romanus and couldn’t afford to be too curious.

Lestat’s apparent oral fixation also continues to rear its head at least once a class, driving Armand to the point of madness until one day he can stand it no longer.

“Why are you even here?” he seethes, glaring over at where Lestat is fidgeting in his seat.

They’ve been asked to discuss some reading questions in small groups and, to no one’s surprise, Lestat has made no move to actually contribute anything of substance.

“Pardon?” Lestat asks, looking over at him with those impossible eyes of his. Are they gray? Blue? Purple? Their color seems to change by the day and Armand is pathetically distracted by the desire to pin down their hue.

“You sit here every class taking no notes, doing nothing except practically fellating your pen while you stare at the professor like you want to eat him,” he hisses, frustration bleeding through in his tone. “Do you even do the readings?”

To Armand’s extreme displeasure, Lestat smirks at him.

“Perhaps if you spent less time worrying about what my mouth is doing and more time reviewing your precious notes, you would not have only gotten a 94 on the quiz,” Lestat muses.

“What? How—?” Armand stammers, his cheeks burning with humiliation.

“It seems highlighting nearly the entire article as you have done did not guarantee that last six percent,” Lestat continues, gesturing down to Armand’s desk-full of neatly organized readings with a single manicured finger.

Incredulous anger consumes Armand’s chest. Lestat must have seen his grade when Dr. du Lac handed their quizzes back at the end of last class. It’s the only explanation, but, come to think of it—“You didn’t even take the quiz!”

“I don’t need to,” Lestat shrugs, unfazed. “I am merely auditing the class.”

Now that was even more baffling. He had assumed Lestat needed to take this course as some kind of curriculum requirement, but why on Earth would someone like Lestat be auditing an ethics class?

He supposes it does explain the reason Dr. du Lac’s eyes seem to almost intentionally skip over Lestat when he’s sprawled out in his chair like the entitled brat that he is. If he isn’t paying for the course, why bother making sure he’s actually learning something?

“Well, I don’t know what good it’s doing you. It’s not like you’re even reading the articles he assigns,” Armand shoots back, arms crossed tight over his chest. “Wait, you can read, can’t you?”

Lestat sneers at the question, but before he can open his mouth to deliver the venomous rebuttal Armand is sure he’s been working on the ten whole seconds it’s been since he asked, Louis is addressing the class again.

“Alright, that’s enough one on one discussion time for now. Who’s got something for me?” Louis asks, and when Armand looks up, he sees the professor’s eyes are flickering between the two of them, his brow creased in concern.

It’s another week after that that Armand gets back their latest quiz—a perfect score this time—and finally decides that the moment has arrived for him to move on to the next stage of his plan.

After Dr. du Lac dismisses their class, Armand waits for the handful of other students who have questions for the professor to depart before making his approach, ignoring the glare he gets from Lestat who still hasn’t moved from his seat.

“Armand,” Dr. du Lac smiles as Armand steps up toward the podium where he’s still gathering his papers into his messenger bag. “Those were some very insightful comments you made about the assigned reading. I think you might be the only one who actually understood it.”

Armand is momentarily stunned by the compliment, warmth flooding his body at such praise. He is struck, too, by how beautiful the man is up close, finding himself captivated by the gentle curve of his lips as he grins at him and those warm, dark eyes, fathomless in their depth. He could fall in love with those eyes, he thinks—if Louis wasn’t his professor and Armand wasn’t already in love with someone else, of course.

“Thank you, professor,” Armand says, an almost dreamlike quality to his voice as he attempts to recover.

“Please, call me Louis,” Dr. du Lac interrupts with a wave of his hand. “‘Professor’ is for the undergrads.”

“Louis, then,” Armand replies with a soft smile of his own, shaking off the urge to just keep staring at him.

“So what is it I can help you with?” Louis prompts when he says nothing else.

“Oh,” Armand says, redirecting his thoughts. “I was wondering if you might have recommendations for further reading for me. I will be writing my dissertation on philosophical approaches to the devil and plan to include a chapter on the epistemological and moral issues concerning the subject. As our department’s resident expert on moral philosophy, I thought you might be uniquely situated to point me toward a starting point for my research.”

“Already thinking of the diss?” Louis wonders, curious as his eyes pass him over again. “You must be a few years out from writing it.”

It isn’t hard to imagine why he’s asking. By now, Armand is quite used to being underestimated because of his perceived youth.

“I’m older than I look,” Armand assures him, shifting from one foot to the other. “And I am eager to get started.”

“I don’t doubt it,” Louis says kindly. “I meant you’ve only just started your degree. You’re new to the department, right?”

“I do already have my master’s,” Armand tells him, disliking the implication that he hasn’t advanced enough in his studies to know what he wants to focus on, before he continues, “but yes, I matriculated while you were on sabbatical last semester, no doubt crafting your latest masterpiece.”

Louis laughs, a soft and beautiful sound. “You could say that.”

He glances behind Armand to where Lestat is waiting as he says it, but then his brown eyes refocus on Armand.

“Hey, why don’t you come by my office hours tomorrow?” he suggests. “I’ve got to run, but I might have a few books you’d be interested in.”

Any rankled feelings still lingering in Armand’s heart evaporate completely in the face of Louis’ generous invitation. He is as flattered by Louis’ interest in supporting his work as he is excited by the prospect of spending more time with him.

“That would be wonderful,” Armand replies, eager to accept. “Thank you, I truly appreciate it.”

“Of course,” Louis nods obligingly.

Armand says his goodbyes before heading out the door, feeling strangely light on his feet, as if buoyed by the butterflies he can feel fluttering around in his chest.

#loustat fic #loustat #devil's minion #devil's minion fic #armand #ethics professor louis fic #god this has been SUCH a long time coming #i still have the last chapter to finish but i've decided my desperate need for serotonin outweighs my desire to wait til it's 100% done #so here it is!#chapter one!#i hope it's worth the wait

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