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katyspersonal · 2 months ago

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Alright, I want to disagree with some of your disagreements @blender2902 ! Though the very first thing comes right at the start:

Hate her for the right reasons is what I am saying.

You see, Val (the OP) never said to "hate" her. In fact, the opposite! The logic that 'character is morally questionable / did irredeemable things / war criminal instantly implies hating the character' is a grandiose skill issue if I've seen one! I think it is a common sense that no one who actually hates characters FOR doing awful things should touch Fromsoft games with ten yards stick. In fact, this giant list of Marika's wrongdoings rekindled my liking of the character fsdhjsfhd Highlighting the wrongs of the character should not be seen as an invitation to "hate" the character, in Fromsoft fandoms at least. I assume some people might weaponize Marika's crimes to be mean to her FANS and call them "apologists", which is 1) not exclusive to her, it is a risk that exists for every character and 2) a vice of the people, not the information itself!

The evidence for this is that after Radagon became elden lord Marika became pretty much inert for the rest of the story up till the shattering of the elden ring while Radagon is doing all sorts of stuff

I don't think this is a solid evidence. "All sorts of stuff" he did after becoming a Lord was to create Golden Order Fundamentalism with Miquella and... attempt to mend the Elden Ring after Marika shattered it. This is honestly all I remember him doing after that point! It does not mean Marika was "inert"; what it DOES mean is that Fromsoft doesn't detalise more story than they need to, and that they wanted to specify how Golden Order was not working for Miquella's intentions through including THE Golden Order man himself!

I honestly don't think Marika can control who gets grace and who doesn't

If we look at the eyes of the omen they are golden heavily implying that they have grace.

I will be real here: as much as I appreciate your willingness to debate and discuss the lore, there are some things you just can NOT leave without images! You are using mostly the text to back up your claims, but it is something that SHOULD be shown and not just taken by word! (It is true btw):

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(Eyes textures image from here ( x ))

Worth pointing out an interesting double standard; Carians do not have gold in their eyes either! Demigod children do, of course, but not Rennala and Preceptors. However, apparently since Radagon fell in love with Rennala, NOW this was different? :p

^^^ I also want to second Zullie's remark that Fire Giant having gold in his eyes might be "not necessarily a good thing". That's one way to put it! If that was her 'curse', it would mean that she CAN give grace (for better or worse), not just remove it.

I don't see why she wouldn't just take grace away from them when she is having them be discriminated.

My guess here is that Omens are born with a grace because their parents had the grace! Omen is not a race but a unique mutation or illness or what you choose to call it, as evident by Morgott losing his Omen features near death! So, parents can be pretty average grace-given denizens of the Lands Between, and birthing Omens happens here and there and parents don't have to be Omens themselves! As for why she would not take grace from these people? In my opinion, it feels counter-productive for Marika to walk around and do a reverse-benediction on every other born Omen dsggsddsf

we the tarnished are given grace and guided by it but many npcs still don't like us and call us graceless in spite of that.

Tarnished are not given the grace! They are called by it, resurrected by it from death even (Gideon, Dung Eater and Goldmask at least), and guided by it, but not given! Tarnished, by definition, are those divested of grace and descendants of those divested by grace, so if a Tarnished got their grace back, no one would be able to TELL they're Tarnished to begin with! These NPCs who are mean to us thus can tell we are Tarnished, thus can see we are graceless.

Pages: I have no idea at what point in the timeline these guys appeared. I don't remember seeing a single one in LOS so that could be a hint or it could simply be that none went there so idk.

Pages are the guys that accompany nobles of the Leyendell! Basically, they were a thing before the Shattering!

Crucible knights: The crucible knights were never loyal to Marika. They were loyal to Godfrey.

The thing is, the implication is that they were loyal to him particularly as an Elden Lord, and an Elden Lord is an extension of Marika herself!

after Radagon took over he started removing all signs of Godfrey from the capital as seen from the colosseum practises being stopped so not much of a stretch to assume he would be responsible for the crucible knights being scorned.

^^^ I think this is a valid criticism on the surface level, that doesn't deal with just a matter of different opinions and preferences, as "civilisation advancing" is associated with Fundamentalism, that Radagon helped creating:

Crucible is not at odds with her Erdtree, the Erdtree is itself a Crucible and Ancestral Followers worship the minor ones. However, if Marika cherished the primordial divine essence of life so much, would she really let her other self, that she looks down upon, to completely reshape the society to scorn it? This interpretation would have Marika being a completely helpless weak puppet of Radagon, no less! At the very least, she could have protested against it....... especially since Radagon was not a dominant side in the slightest!

How comes that Radagon and Trina have less choice on what happens in regards to their Empyrean selves is up to interpretation. Empyreans are strange! But I think Marika had to be complicit or at least approving! Like "yeah focusing on civilisation is weird flex but you go dog king" XD

So lets see how and when the Albunaurics were discriminated against.

The discrimination they are facing is particularly stated to be inspired by the Erdtree!

In the pre-patched version of the Albinauric Pot, it, of course, was even MORE blatant:

Despite them removing the stronger wording of "separates the target from the grace of the Golden Order", the function still stands to mess with the recovery from the flasks!

The function parallels with another certain demographics who were harmed by the Erdtree:

Everything points the blame towards Radagon and not Marika

Again, I accept this remark, as Academy of Raya Lucaria became part of the Golden Order after Rennala and Radagon married, so we could say that he was the one to bring the sentiment amongst Cuckoos.. but he is a passionate follower of the Golden Order, which is HER invention to begin with. Rykard was following Golden Order too before blasphemy! Those atrocities are reflection of GO.

As OP explained in the comments of this post, it wasn't a list of things Marika did personally, but a list of the injustices that happened under her rule. She always has the final say as THE God figure that she is, so it's her responsibility AND fault if shit like this happens under her theocracy! Seeing her track record with other graceless beings, I have no reason to believe she made an exception for the Albinaurics until Radagon decided they were impure and needed to die too (which, in the case it was just him, then she didn't stop him, turning back to the detail about him not even being a dominant alter). In fact, I'd say Radagon must have been pretty chill with Albinaurics, seeing as Miquella, a son close to him, accepts them?

I doubt Marika would not have known this as she seems to favour Messmer over other demigod as implied by the blessing of Marika description.

Description went, "Marika once created several of these physicks for Messmer's sake. But never again." The fact that Marika has been trying to heal him does not really say that she was picking a favourite! She loved Godwyn, too, and her grief caused the whole Shattering! Miquella created a school of thought and then Unalloyed Needles to heal Malenia, but he also loved Godwyn (and Radahn too, apparently). There is a difference between "favouring someone over others" and "doing special things for someone who has special needs"!

Messmer is heavily implied to have lived in Leyndell before the crusade and he made friend with an albunauric, Gaius.

This means she just let one of her children be friend with an Albunauric and have him be Messmer's chief in command without any hiccups.

Messmer is ALSO implied to have been familiar with Carians, since "both were as elder brothers to the lion":

And the description refers to how they bonded not only over being senior figures to Radagn, but also by "being cursed from birth". But like, how was Gaius cursed? Like, I know Albinaurics have it hard with their legs literally disappearing, but at this rate, this is just a feature of the species, you know? So maybe, a 'curse' here is metaphorical? Such as being a curse according to Golden Order's system of values, also known as Marika's system of values! Such as feeling like having no place in the world she wanted, whether it was something she directly transmitted, or a value system she allowed and didn't shield these people from!

I know I sound too harsh on her, but I have my doubts in the parenting skills of someone who literally says "hey kids, if you fail to make a name for yourself you are only worthy of sacrifices 🤷"! She might have "allowed" that friendship, but the way I read it feels more like Messmer knows the pain of feeling like a "freak" and yet still wishing to help, even if just as a "weapon"!

You can blame her for not changing the sentiments against them

I will.

Now this is just up to interpretation but the order healing description

^^^ This description refers to how fanatical hunters of Those Who Live in Death became! "all the good and the great wanted, in their foolishness, was an absolute evil to contend with" is just a different wording for "good intentions pawed the road to hell", basically! However, the hunters, as this description implies, already existed before "becoming just fanatics", as well as the sentiment of living in death being against the Golden Order already existed! Because Marika hammered it down very clear that ONLY she could grant the true death, and all dead should be buried at the Erdtree roots to RETURN to it and be reborn.

Under her reign you don't own even your own death. And, yeah, it is debatable how much it is her fault that some people took it to heart. I do have a feeling that Marika had extraordinary ability to instil horror AND feverish reverence in people! We all remember how Gideon chickened out upon arrival, or.... whatever the fuck Queelign is... There is also an underrated one of Corhyn having a mental breakdown over even a possibility that Golden Order might be not perfect.

I agree that it is indirect fault, if any. But there is something ELSE that Goldmask said:

He basically said that the Golden Order is so treacherous because of THE God who made it! "Instability" feels like a reference to how Crucible was once divine, but then became scorned, if anything!

Generally, it feels like everyone will have their own answer on the question of who IS to blame...? Like you know how sometimes there is a popular creator, usually Youtuber, and if their fans do something awful, the society splits between 'stop blaming him for actions of his fanbase!' vs 'he was the one to cultivate such following and failed to prevent it from harmful influence'? It is a bit like this, just on grander scheme! I think every stance has the right to exist, especially when it is fictional characters who are being discussed and thus real people can't suffer if the 'wrong' stance is assumed

Messmer: Ok so with all due respect, I hate, Hate, HATE when people say she sealed Messmer away to wage endless war or that because she was scared of the serpent or because she didn't want her reputation be stained by the crusade being too, violent.

With all due DISrespect, with how much vitriol you display for variety of interpretations and headcanons in the fandom, you'd make a model fan of Miquella. You should consider this. Miyazaki did not deliberately make all his stories missing enough clues for the players to fill the gaps by themselves for people to go and spread this "let me educate you peasants with your WRONG readings uwu". All interpretations you've listed ARE absolutely possible. Yes, they use some assumptions, but so does your interpretation below. I am disgusted at this fandom for how widespread taking personal offence with 'up to interpretation' sentiment is. I'll use this again:

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This also proves that her wanting to remove Messmer from history is not true at all because then she would have also removed the stone tablets but she didn't.

I do not understand this logic at all. They are literally just stone tablets with knowledge written on them. They do not have Messmer's signature, they most likely do not refer to Messmer. It is, like, knowledge. If someone brought you books that are not about them, and then later you wanted to severe all ties with this person for one reason or another, would you still burn the books? Even if they have some useful information? I would not put it past Marika to still save it. Heck, Messmer feels like more of the type to burn down the history and knowledge, because keeping the Specimen Storehouse and sparing the Rauh Ruins was requested by his KNIGHTS!

(+ a relevant food for a headcanon: maybe the reason for Godskin Prayerbook being in Stormveil is that it was one of the treasures Godrick stole from Leyendell? So, Marika preserving their practices for historical record despite being enemies with Gloam-Eyed Queen?)

Also the claim that messmer was sealed because the crusade got too violent is so ??? Like we see in the story trailer that the lands of shadow is veiled so how could anybody have ever known that the crusade was violent? That reasoning is just nonsensical if you ask me especially considering that no one seemed to have any problems with the brutal practises that happened under the golden order.

No, it is not "nonsensical" at all. Genocide on the scale of the Hornsent is something unheard of even by the Golden Order's standards! Unlike the territorial aggression on the Storm Lord and Liurnia, or, heck, defeating Fire Giants recognised as "start of the age glistening with life" as far as everyone concerned (!), THIS one is acknowledged as a conflict with no grace or honor by a few descriptions, and the men who partook in it as having their very soul and inner self stained black with sin!

Alternatively, it wasn't the violence itself, but the fact Messmer was displaying a bit too much power for Marika's liking! The description of Messmer's remembrance mentions that it was her fear that made her seal him away, but I feel like this is an easy trap of "forgetting base game's lore upon playing SoTE" if anything. Marika has a fear of fire, and VERY reasonably so! She obliterated Fire Giants because their fire could burn the Erdtree, Gloam-Eyed Queen was associated with fire that could kill gods and destined death! The things that guaranteed that she would not be SO 'eternal'!

^^^ I am using Val's image again because it is still perfect. 🤔 Notice the bit - 'keeping company with the original sin'! Burning of the Erdtree is THE sin in this setting, repeatedly referred to as such, so how is this not a working interpretation that Messmer's flame was extension of it? Especially considering his lingering connections with Fell God? Fromsoft keeps hammering down the idea that nothing should live forever, and nothing cripples the world than trying to live forever, and Marika excels at the trope they given to Gwyn.

The ghosts' dialogue is also an indication that she did mean to return, but now it doesn't seem like it, so she changed her mind. (The idea that her abandoning Messmer and Crusaders with him happened because she was too busy shattering the Elden Ring already debunked itself by his Remembrance description saying how it was a choice from her made out of fear!)

This means that Marika's seal likely weakened over time and the base serpent was able to show itself somehow.

......OR it means that Messmer tried to confide in Andreas, likely Huw too, but they did not take it very well? Like maybe he wanted to promote them to Fire Knights, who do know of his nature, but they didn't accept? OR it means that someone told them? OR it means literally anything you can make out of it?

Also I don't see where you're coming from about the seal having weakened! Earlier in your own response you said that his seal is a permanent thing unlike Iris of Grace, NOW you are saying that it was wearing down over time. 🤔 So, which one is it? I don't think that the seal was wearing down, personally; Messmer had to remove it himself for Base Serpent to show up! I think this implies that it would conceal his nature for as long as it IS there!

3 )The fire knight armour description also seem imply that Messmer wasn't like all that much even before the crusade and eventually the upper echelons started to scorn him.

sorry I had to fhdhfd I genuinely don't see any mention of this in their description! All it says is that they KNEW of his serpentine nature, nothing about how they FELT about it! On the other hand, another ite implies that they were WILLING to share his painful fate with him, much like his winged snakes:

If this doesn't sound gay as though they were more than accepting of his nature and compensated by at least using serpertine incantations since serpentine fire could not settle IN them, then I don't know what does. In other words, it depends on someone's skill issue!

Its pretty stupid to want to weaken your own army intentionally and create a power vacuum.

Iirc the army largerly consisted of convicted people that were basically forced to be in it:

Otherwise, it is just Messmer's Knights. Loyal to Messmer. Like Miquella's Knights, Redmane Knights, Gelmir Knights.. Messmer's Knights were "loyal to Marika" for the same reason Redmane and Gelmir Knights were "loyal to Radagon": this person is the parent of their liege!

Doesn't change that their liege was Messmer/Radahn/Rykard/etc, rather than their parent, but it was their liege that honored that parent, so loyal Knights had to as well! Out of her army that was SPECIFICALLY just her, she left exactly two Tree Sentinels to guard the Shaman Village!

With all these points in mind we get an answer- On one of Messmer's visits to Leyndell the base serpent revealed itself in front of the upper echelons/ public which led to him getting scorned by them and thus his flight. The fire knights chose to stay loyal to him which led to them getting scorned. Now the upper echelons are providing ample political pressure on Marika not to mention that Radagon was around at this point so he may have played a role too in the political pressure. All this lead to her sealing Messmer in the shadow realm and her fear mentioned in Messmer's description was not of what the base serpent would do to her reputation (becuz if that was the case then it would make zero sense to have messmer return at all) but the fear for Messmer's safety as even his loyal knights betrayed him after they found out about the base serpent so we can only imagine what the upper echelons would do.

Wow, neat! A very well put fanfic you have here!

No, seriously, you are not even proposing it in the 'how about this idea?' manner like I do, or saying 'this is how I see it'. What you do NOT do in the debates and discussions is propose your story idea as a matter of fact and "the only interpretation". How do we conclude this is a story idea and not analysis? Because what you are saying is NOT facts and info from the game but basically your idea of what happened in the part of the lore we're not told!

I will give you this, that Leyendell being full of ash even before we use Destined Death is a clue towards how an attempt to burn the Erdtree was already done! To not spam, Val already brought that up in another post ( x ). You could say that it happened because of Messmer, maybe beyond his will, as instinctive calling, why not? (ENTP moment helping the opponent with arguments I know fshhfdf) What I will NOT give you though, is your insistence on Marika being a helpless puppet of Radagon when the ONE time we know he "overpowered" her was when she ruined herself by ruining Elden Ring, and using his Knights learning about his nature as a claim!

There is more evidence for the idea that these Knights were exception in terms of learning about his nature, and it should be meaningful that they were ALSO coincidentally close to Messmer! You just said that Messmer's flight happened because his Base Serpent nature showed up, but these Knights rebelled and were killed for that IN the Shadow Realm! So, whatever was the way they've learned about his nature was not that speculated dreadful day, nor Marika would know his Knights ditched him! Unless you assume that after his flight he'd return to tell Marika about what happened to Andreas and Huw, but you yourself implied that after the flight the contacts were severed! This is swiss cheese level of plot holes here, unless I've missed something, but I am only giving you back your OWN interpretation!

Considering that there is only one ice drake left, the giants caused their extinction.

This is a bold claim, because Magma Wyrm Theodorix very coincidentally resides IN the Mountaintops:

Magma Wyrms are failures of attempts to become Dragons themselves through the process of eating many hearts of the dragons one hunted! Normally these are probably Drake Warriors, but here you see, Trolls can experience this too! Trolls were traitors of the Fire Giants and many are still patrolling the Mountaintops... but, in the simplest terms possible, an enemy of your enemy is not always your friend. Theodorix having turned into a Magma Wyrm implies that he had to eat MANY Drake hearts, so how comes he would not kill off the ice ones if he is found there?

Besides, practice of Dragon Communion is a VERY Erdtree practice! The Golden Order is allies with Ancient Dragons, not Drakes! AND Ancient Dragons are enemies of the Drakes!

Zamor did join Godfrey, but not ice Drakes! Even if you say that the peace with Ancient Dragons was achieved after war with the Fire Giants, what is the implication of there being a Magma Wyrm of a Troll, ally to the Erdtree now, being in the Mountaintops? Heck, it is more likely that many Ice Drakes survived, but it was Golden Order's fault that they were exterminated later. IF we assume Ice Drakes were allies, it is not the first time Golden Order turns on those who were allies formerly. *looks at what happened with Crucible Knights*

......and if you say that yet again it was all Radagon's idea to go and kill Ice Drakes because we find his (former) wedding gift sword there and helpless kind soul Marika had zero agency against him somehow and it is nonsensical that she'd send HER LORD to do shit for the sake of NEW allies (Ancient Dragons) I'll start burning villages. 🙄

The fire giants are stated to have fought the ice drakes and chase them away in the borealis ice breath description.

Again, territorial aggression is nothing new for the setting! Ancient Stormveil, Ancient Dragons and Liurnian wars. Heck, war on the Fire Giants was ALSO territorial aggression of sorts! Marika led a war on them for her own reasons, and Zamor just happened to be helpful allies with their interest in returning what was their!

+ Honestly, TWO could play the "never stated, only context clues" game and say the Golden Order later stomped out the Zamor too, because we find their homeland a ruin, one of them is imprisoned far from home in an Evergaol and all of them feature chains and stuff like that.

^^^ Both imprisoned and not imprisoned

In her dialogue she literally speaks about Godfrey and the tarnished very respectfully

Nope! :> She doesn't! Here is the post by @yournextflame :

"The choice of pronounce is interesting. Marika referers to Godfrey as お前 “omae” ( 我が王よ、王の戦士たちよ。お前たちから、祝福を奪う), a derogatory form of “you” in Japanese, this pronoun is widely considered rude and usually used for inferiors or enemies (”omae wa mou shindeiru” meme). In some cases it’s used by teenagers or family members (by the head of the household), however, in pre-Edo Japan “omae” was actually a polite form of you. Notably, she calls Tarnished omaetachi, plural and a bit more polite form of omae."

In Japanese original, she uses 'omae' towards Godfrey! She is as rude to him as to Radagon, when she speaks to him and Tarnished! She is very mean lol

A popular theory is that the crusade was a response to the omen curse. If you buy this theory then the crusade might have been an attempt to stop the omen curse.

I will NOT buy this theory with a single oak leaf used in child's playing in a shop as a currency. The whole SOtE repeatedly refers to it as "holy war", or "purge", or "cleansing with fire" and other lovely terms that very blatantly hint at the narrative condemning extreme forms of religion like Crusades! Or how the Hornsent were "branded with fire". We also all know how Miyazaki NEVER misses his chance to remind us how strongly he judges Christian-coded corruption in every game he makes! We thought Elden Ring was free of it? Nope, no such luck, DLC fixed it!

Besides, is not SOtE side story strongly focused on how terrible the cycle of revenge is? Assumption that only genociding the entire race, including children and otherwise innocent bystanders, could lift the curse is already drastic, but ignoring theme of revenge that narrative wants us to focus on? But yes, okay, let's say that focusing on writer's implications within the narrative is a slippery slope and we can't use THAT as an argument, so here is another one:

^^^ Whereas the spirits that haunt Omens ARE very hornsent-ish, the so-known 'omen curse' is mentioned by Grandam:

"A curse upon thee, rotten miscreant. A curse upon the strumpet's progeny, upon Marika's children each and all. The curse of the omen shall strike thee down… In the form of the sacred beast's ire"

(No I won't hit her for the sake of the screenshots lmao) Okay, I also heard somewhere that it might be mistranslated a bit as well, so here ( x ) is Japanese text document if someone here can confirm or deny! But let's assume that this is correct.

Still, from the context, Marika and her children are only cursed over her "betrayal" (mentioned by Hornsent Grandam and Hornsent NPC that follows Miquella's traces with us), which WAS commanding the Crusade, purging of the Tower first of all! They would not blame her for "betrayal" if it was something they simply sent over a Shaman girl who escaped the Potentates?

I say, given this, it is more likely to be the OTHER way around: Omen curse might have happened BECAUSE Marika attracted it by all the suffering of Hornsent that happened under her command! It is a karmic retribution of sorts! Nothing said that Morgott and Mohg could not have been born after Messmer went to do the Crusade from my knowledge! In fact, Messmer likely predated even Godwyn, not just Morgott and Mohg!

subjugating omens and misbegottens but its important to mention that there were attempts to cure them.

How exactly they were attempts to "cure" them? The ones attempting to cure them were Perfumers, most notably Tricia, whereas procedure of removing their horns had nothing to do with "curing"!

^^^ Removal of the horns happens in their childhood, and it is NOT a healing attempt, but it is an attempt to "fix" them! Those who survive apparently are deemed """safe""" and are used as servants and weapons in the society, no less. Otherwise, why nobles AND Marika never tried to cut the horns of their children? Right, because even an Omen who had horns "fixed" is not good enough. Also because nobles had a privilege to not have their children put through a procedure that will MOST likely cause death, but simple folks did not get to keep their babies safe even if hidden!

Now, Perfumers, on the other hand, were the ones trying to heal! If you want to say 'well, see, Marika allowed them to exist!', 1) same is true for allowing Omenkillers to exist and 2) it does not change oppression of Omens! even if seeking the way to heal them is a work in progress, they could have at least been allowed to live their painful nightmare-ridden lives!

As for the picture of the dolls I've attached (is it obvious that I am running out of the images-per-post space yet fdhfhdsfsd)? I did not think Omen Bairns had anything to do with sewing? (a point you'd address below) I thought Omen Bairns were inspired by Mizuko kuyō (水子供養). The item Omen Bairn is called 忌み水子, and Mizuko can refer to a newborn baby, or an aborted, stillborn, or miscarried fetus. The Mizuko kuyō are little statuettes that are made to comfort parents who lost their children to miscarriage, stillbirth or abortion! It's both to ease the parents and their grief and guilt... or to ease the soul of the baby and prevent it from becoming a vengeful spirit... (you can tell that didn't work in Elden Ring setting, since Omen Bairns ARE used to call upon wraits?) Point is, it has nothing to do with sewing AND if anything, it means Marika viewed the Omen Twins as dead on arrival. It's likely how she encouraged her people to view their own Omen children such as well.

OK done with the disagreements but I feel like I need to add a few more things to humanise her a bit more as those last few paragraphs are just so ??? to me.

I will skip through most of it because most of it was already addressed. Again, this is honestly unnecessary, because 'listing character's wrongdoings' =/= 'dehumanising a character'. The OP's point was to remind some demographics in the fandom that Marika is not a saint or an innocent person! Saying 'remember that she did bad shit' does NOT equal saying 'forget all the good shit and intentions'. To dehumanise Marika would mean to paint her as bad just for the sake of being bad, when it IS self-explanatory that she wanted "a world glistening with life and light" but since it is a Fromsoft game attempts to establish and keep such world ended with only rotting it further. Again: very strong resemblance of Gwyn as a character!

She was accepting of the ancient dragons in spite of the damage they caused: The ancient dragons caused massive damage to Leyndell yet she still allowed Godwyn to befriend them and make the dragon cult. She does have the capacity to forgive it seems

Like we literally get dialogue of her saying that she doubts the golden order and wanted to search its depths. What did she find? I think its either that the greater will was never there or that the 2 fingers/Metyr wanted her to be their eternal slave.

The Gravel Stone Seal states the reasoning for allyship to be both linked to the Gold! After all, whereas blue glintstones are pieces of stars, the golden ones are the source of primordial life itself! Elden Ring itself is of Gold, and once was owned BY Ancient Dragons!

And as for the dialogue, I assume that this is the one you are referring to? Correct me if you meant the different one, but in the case of this one, Marika is just saying "hey guys, don't JUST believe in the Golden Order, understand WHY you must believe in it!". This doesn't confirm or deny whether she wanted to dismantle it from afar! We just know that Godwyn's death was the trigger! How about this idea: Marika had a big track record of trying to outrun her fate and mistakes but failing: Messmer being born with Fell God-ish curse, Melina having Destined Death OR being Gloam-Eyed Queen herself depending on your interpretation, Malenia being born with the curse of Rot that Romina, victim of Crusade, basically created and so on...

Karma is a cruel bitch, and so, Destined Death catching up with her beloved golden child Godwyn might have been the last drop where she finally realised her attempts to make a perfect world will NEVER come to fruition and wrecked it. Sadly enough, it looks more to me like it was her way to pass the role of making the world better on someone else; first awaiting one of her remaining children to do it, then the Lord in a Tarnished. She failed to find the way no matter how much she tried, but maybe someone else would? My point IS, this dialogue does not confirm how or when or if at all she wanted her own order to go, it just says that she wanted more mindful devotion from her followers! Also might be her encouraging Fundamentalism, as it is "scholarship in all but name"!

Also, don't get me wrong, but you are being very inconsistent about Marika's agency. You constantly say that every other bad thing she did was actually just her being pressured by Radagon, but then you also use pointers like 'she allowed Messmer to be friends with an Albinauric' or 'she allowed Godwyn to make peace with Ancient Dragons'. 🤔 So, is she a huge pushover to her "lesser" half, or someone so controlling that every action of her children is just extension of her will?

Marika is the kindness of gold (as flawed as she may be) while Radagon is the order.

Marika CREATED the Golden Order, and Radagon was the one not willing to let it go! As for how she is the "good" part of the whole ordeal, don't take my word, take the word of the guy with 999+ Insight of the setting:

I apologise for the walls of text and if I came across as rude at any point.

You kind of have came across as rude a little bit, although indirectly, but the attitude made me feel more like being on Reddit rather than Tumblr! I responded in kind where it applied, so you don't have to feel guilty! And I assume maybe OP calling her a monster might have been what set you off? I can confirm they did not intend it to mean she was irredeemable and worth being hated. Though it did feel to me like you didn't take enough time for this post? You often made typos, skipped words, did drastic conclusions, used your biases and preferences as proofs, and your post is not formatted very well (not only lacks images but also quotes are not brought separately)! I guess you were being emotional or in a rush? I assume that attempts to excuse exterminations of Fire Giants and even Hornsent were in good faith, but it was in poor taste. The whole OP's post was addressing the issue, and yet it circled back at us!

Like.. this is why I usually either make a draft of a reply that I revisit later, or have a trusted friend beta-read my text before sending if anyone is available. Because, yes, I absolutely understand how easy it is to get emotional seeing your character being "done dirty", and this is why it is better to take time to respond rather than get it all off your chest instantly! This was not what OP did at all though. And, again, highlighting Marika's wrongdoings is NOT an invitation to hate her or dehumanise her! For example, as much as you are not a fan of Val's attributing "too many crimes" to her, I am not a fan of you seeing her as a pushover of Radagon! I for one prefer to pass as much agency onto the characters as I can, especially female characters, and there is a room for it! Whether it was agency to do bad stuff or good stuff is not relevant because being a Fromsoft fan is not about morality contest, it is about who is your favourite war criminal fdhfdhsdsf

Nonetheless, Marika was not done dirty in this post, at all. Prior SOtE, me and Val both in fact defended her from more plain and bland takes on her as JUST someone who wanted to preserve her power, or someone JUST mean and evil, or even someone's punching bag for their grudges with Christian oppression 🤦‍♂️ At the same time, I also dreaded pre-SOtE takes that she was just a puppet of the Greater Will, and I explained why! You don't know us so you would not know this, but yes, schooling us on how Marika is "not just evil" was not necessary at least because the post's context was that Marika is "not just a victim"!

+ Also a bit from you @drenched-in-sunlight:

There might even be an angle of sympathy between them for being the last of their kind on their personal quest for revenge, which later translates to Marika easily embracing other Ancient Dragons.

I addressed this above in the post that the reasoning for allyship between Ancient Dragons and Erdtree happened as they realised both have Gold at their core, however Ice Dragons are Drakes, so, enemies of Ancient Dragons! If Ice Dragons were allies during the war with the Fire Giants, I doubt that they'd still stay friends with those who then became allies with Ancient Dragons! Ancient Dragons that urge people to hunt them and eat their hearts for the sins of Bayle. Whatever could be made of Borealis, I think this issue is important! In general, political allyship is an extremely treacherous thing, and today's allies can be tomorrow's enemies, depending on what the Golden Order wants!

I could also discuss how Fire Giants were not willing servants to the Fell God, they were literally cursed to be keeper of the flame for eternity, and by their failure they were freed.

I actually do want to get more clarification on this, because personally I've got more of an impression that they DID agree to it:

Like I swear it just read to me like sort of "deal with the devil": that they became not just Giants but Fire Giants in exchange for this power, to be able to strike at the Ice Dragons maybe, but the price was heavy? I also had the impression of the Giants "summoning" the Fell God at some point to grant them this power because of the sequence in Fire Giant's battle, where he only activates his Fell God's mark upon sacrificing part of his body to burn! That impression also solidified because of Furnace Golems who carry both Fell God's visage and visages of Fire Giants! Furnace Golem is extremely similar to Wickermen, and Wickermen ARE devices of mass sacrifice through burning..

So basically, being "freed" here is equivalent of escaping the deal with the devil that they were regretting! I don't know if I am just too autistic to read this description in other way, so here is also Japanese line for this:

火の巨人は、悪神の力を借りてなお敗れた

Is it saying something similar? Or it is different?

_______________________

Also, yes, I am not sure what to do about this thread either. It is so ridiculously long that idk HOW to even continue discussion if needed. :/ @blender2902 If you want to discuss this more I think the only way to do it is to make a separate post and link this one as the start because this is becoming absurd long 🙄 If not, I think we can agree to disagree. Idk man, Elden Ring is the only Fromsoft game which is IMPOSSIBLE for a single person to fully grasp because of its enormous size so I think this kind of threads is useful at least for exchange of 'things I've noticed' if you see what I mean

The "Hornsent deserved it" sentiments make me lose my goddamn mind

Short answer: No they didn't.

Long answer: Oh my gooooooooooood can we NOT do this shit, please???

There are two underlying sentiments to this line of thinking.

The Hornsent hurt Marika's people, thus Marika did nothing wrong, therefore they deserved to die badly

The Hornsent hurt Marika's people + Midra and some others, Marika is still evil, but the Hornsent deserved to be destroyed

Both may even come to the extreme of "Messmer wasn't cruel enough" or some other nonsense in the same vein.

Number 1

To tackle number one, we need to remember a little thing called Elden Ring's base game. The Hornsent's jar ritual is undoubtedly abhorrent, that much is true. But I urge you to remember the things that happened during Marika's reign. She:

Murdered all of the Fire Giants but one, subjecting him to a fate similar to hers but worse, forced into labor confined on the mountain among the remains of his people and culture. She mocked him, to boot. All of this because they might have burnt the Erdtree.

Enslaved the Misbegotten from birth "or worse" because their species just so happened to have made contact with the Crucible.

Rewarded her own loyal Crucible Knights with scorn because of it too, as they didn't fit her current society that they fought to establish.

Made sure the Albinaurics were seen as lesser just because they were graceless, which influenced the way they were treated. She even had her Inquisition, run by Rykard, torture them in needlessly cruel manners, as they appear to be their main victims.

Just in general, she allowed Rykard to run a sadistic Inquisition to torture heretics to the Golden Order in the first place, and she saw nothing wrong with it or their practices.

She entombed the entire Great Caravan over a false rumor, which is the sole reason why the Flame of Frenzy was even a problem during her reign. This has also scarred the remainder of their people greatly.

Made the lives of all Omen a living hell either by cutting their horns just as they were born which often kills them, hunting them down in as cruel a way as possible by using their trauma and body parts against them, or throwing them in a sewer to fester with evil spirits hidden from view. She also used to shackle them, including her two children, just to make extra sure they wouldn't crawl out.

Shunned anyone who saw a vision of the Erdtree burning, regardless of who it was, and chased them away from their homes.

Literally allowed the belief that shorter people are somehow lesser, for apparently no reason at all (her most random discrimination decision tbh). This forces them to band together and take up honorless jobs just to get by, and in turn, people start to spread rumors of their inhuman practices, which are likely all untrue.

Had people literally work as slaves for the nobility just by virtue of "being born into obscurity", whatever that means. As well as other accounts of slavery like the Fallen Hawks (likely tied to the defeated soldiers of ancient Stormveil).

Likely endorsed viewing anyone without Grace as inferior beings, which includes the Tarnished that only exist because she divested them of it. She has done nothing to ease their discrimination (despite potentially seeing them as a future asset of sorts), as even the members of the Crusade are more than ready to kill us, like Fire Knight Queelign.

All of this was done in service to HER religion and order. Killing all the Fire Giants and burying the Nomadic Merchants alive? Oh, they could have ruined her age with those pesky flames of theirs.

Systematically oppressing Omen, Misbegotten, Albinaurics and the likes? Oh, they are impure creatures, unlike her people, blessed with the Grace of Gold, elevated from the rest. (Which is the exact same line of thinking as the Hornsent and their horns for crying out loud).

"Oh but the Hornsent stuffed her people into jars" yeah, and I am not arguing the contrary! It was a cruel, deranged practice, born of simple superstition that their victims would be reborn as "good people". But Marika's answer if you don't fit her vision of the world is to either get rid of you and your people through extermination, by literally hounding you from your rightful home, or by enslaving you.

Both sides are genuinely awful... but there's only one side that people are justifying, and it sure as hell isn't the Hornsent.

Marika's backstory is meant to make her less a god, which is all we have ever known her to be before the DLC, and more a human, which is what she once was. It gives her complexity as a character, it's meant to be the catalyst from which we learn why she took the path that she took. It is absolutely not meant to make us go "holy shit guys, Marika was the good guy all along???", because what she brought upon this world through her burning desire for vengeance has ruined it irreparably, and ruined the lives of most of the creatures who inhabit it.

This includes her ruthless, honorless, pointless Crusade against the Hornsent. Sure, it was her own son that started it, but it was for her sake. It was her who allowed him to wage it, he had her full support... until the thing turned to such a slaughter-fest that even she could not associate with it anymore due to how appalling it all was. And what better way to do that than to seal her own son away to wage war endlessly? And not just because his actions made her look bad, but also for the same crippling fear and prejudice that saw her kill all Fire Giants but one and scar the Great Caravan.

Gratuitous violence across the board, and for what?

(I want to make it absolutely clear that I don't mean you can't like Marika now. In fact, I'd say the DLC made her much more of an interesting character to me as well. I just cannot fathom seeing the entirety of Elden Ring and coming out thinking "wow Marika was the good guy" because she isn't. Heck, coming out thinking that she'd be disgusted with what her grandson Godrick is doing with grafting as if she isn't the queen of having zero empathy for those who are graceless or aren't her family, which the Tarnished he grafts are neither. She'd probably be very proud if anything. Marika is a monster. She became one the moment she obtained godhood, because no milestone would quell her. She did all the wrongs, so take this whole section as a refresher in case you had forgotten)

Number 2

Now, to tackle number 2... this one seemingly has more nuance, but falls for the tried and true pitfall of "the many must pay for the crimes of the few" which is exactly where it rots and collapses onto itself.

Apparently, because of the perpetrators of the Jar Rituals, ALL Hornsent, INDISCRIMINATELY, deserve to be destroyed. They all, each and every single one, deserve the Crusade and the absolute pointless ruin that it brought them. From the children, to the ones who were friends with people with no horns, to the ones who found their own practices grotesque, to the ones that weren't even tied to the Tower's religion and were just simply living their lives.

They ALL, EQUALLY deserve to be burned, to have their cities destroyed, to have their lives ruined. All of them. Ok.

Number 2 works with the assumption that the Hornsent are some sort of hive mind. Some sort of all-encompassing religious order who believes in their superiority. But that's just the Tower's religion. Hornsent are a people. And people are individuals, with their own opinions, their own lives. In fact, from the perspective of the average Hornsent citizen, they were attacked out of nowhere as they were living in peace, which likely means they weren't even at war with Marika before this event.

People also have the assumption that all of the Hornsent were benefiting from their society, which is blatantly false. In fact, outside the treatment of the Shamans, the people that we know the Hornsent have hurt the most are their fellow Hornsent. We know of quite a few of them suffering at the hands of their kin BECAUSE of their religious and cultural practices.

Being Hornsent isn't a "free from mistreatment" card. If anything, the large Gaols where they were imprisoned were built specifically to house them. The main prisoners we find in large numbers are commoners, the same types as the ones scavenging the ruins of their ravaged towns. They are often seen eating maggots off the floor and cowering in fear. All of them were Hornsent too, locked away for who knows what crime. Could have been big and important, small and insignificant, or even just a failure to do something properly (there's precedent), point is, it's clear the Hornsent weren't having a good time in there.

The jar rituals were used mainly as punishment for the imprisoned Hornsent themselves, as a way to have them become "good people". This was just as horrifying for the Hornsent prisoners as it was for the Shamans I assume. Look how terrified this Hornsent seemed at the prospect of sharing that fate. This is the reason why they chopped up Shamans in the first place, as ritual ingredients for a punishment meant primarily for their kin.

And there were more Hornsent who suffered because of the leading ideology. Curseblades were once shunned because they failed to become tutelary deities, and so they were thrown in the Jar Gaols. They were only let out so they could use their expertise and flowing movements to defend their homeland when Messmer invaded, otherwise they'd be rotting with the Innard Shamans and the other Hornsent prisoners the way Labirith is.

It's also worth pointing out that Midra's Mense was filled with Hornsent attendants who sided with their sagely master regardless of his lack of horns and what the Inquisition believed of him. If we were to operate with reasoning number 2, they too would deserve to be murdered in the Crusade because they just so happened to be Hornsent. Because ALL Hornsent deserve extermination for what happened to the Shamans.

And we also know that the Hornsent can find what happens in Bonny Village revolting. In fact, we know that from someone who was born and raised there.

This sounds nothing like someone who thought any of that was ok. So who is to say other Hornsent weren't like this too, especially those who DIDN'T live in Bonny Village? Those who risked being stuffed into those same jars themselves? We make waaaay too many assumptions about an entire race, and that in itself is foolish enough.

If there's someone to blame, it's the Tower's Inquisition. They are the religious order that governs the Hornsent. They have all the power in their society... and yet, would you look at that? Enir-Ilim, their sanctum, the one place where those calling the shots reside, is completely untouched. And what about Bonny, the most structurally fine Hornsent settlement, when you'd expect it to be a black stain of char by now. But nope, no sign of Messmer activity and the Greater Potentates are just running around naked, doing their thing as usual.

The Crusade isn't even a good tool of vengeance, the only ones suffering are the civilians who were likely the ones with a higher risk of ritual jar punishment anyway. If this isn't proof enough that the Crusade is a completely petty, useless revenge war that accomplishes nothing I don't know what else to say. I'll just leave with what the people taking part in it were taking pride in doing.

These are people who, without a shadow of a doubt, would have chopped up most of the oppressed groups described earlier and stuffed them into jars if Marika had told them to do so. (Heck, something like this was being done to the Albinaurics already, as we have seen previously...)

They have zero moral superiority, their deranged zealotry is the only reason they act in the first place. Not to mention that they have no connection to Marika's struggles or past, nor were they informed of them I bet. It's likely only Messmer truly knows the reason for the Crusade, and that's only because he is her child and shoulders all the blame onto himself.

"Those stripped of the Grace of Gold shall all meet death" is LITERALLY their motto. Do you really think they stopped at the Hornsent? They were just their main target, but judging by the way all of Messmer's soldiers, including Queelign and the other Fire Knights, and even HE HIMSELF, attack us on sight for the simple fact we are Tarnished and lack Grace in our eyes, I have no doubt in my mind these people were just rounding up and killing anyone who didn't conform with the Golden Order.

THESE are the people who should be allowed to play judge, jury and executioner with the entire Hornsent race. And people will genuinely, with a straight face, tell you "That's right".

To conclude... I think I actually hate reasoning 2 more than reasoning 1 lol, despite not liking either at all. At least 1 is understandable. Marika is a very interesting character, one that we have known for a few years now. We have an attachment to her, heck, sentiments of her being some sort of misunderstood/rebellious figure were already there before the DLC. In that regard, I understand the emotional response, even though I still think it's a wrong mindset to have. I have at least some hope that it is purely in the realm of fiction because it's a beloved character, nothing more...

Reasoning 2, on the other hand, attempts to be nuanced, or at least pretends to be. In reality, all it peddles is the "an eye for an eye" mentality which is much too common irl as well. Not only that, but it deals in monoliths. All people belonging to a group or race are equally responsible for stuff they didn't even commit, stuff that could have even harmed them, because their leaders decided to commit crimes against another set of people. And don't get me wrong, there will be even commoners from that group or race that will agree with and celebrate that bad deed, but just as many will not, but will be either scared, powerless, already being punished for speaking up through physical violence or elaborate shunning, or currently protesting and doing something to hopefully ignite a change.

But that reasoning only exists to perpetuate cycles; of war, violence, and hate for the most part. And sadly, this mindset is very prevalent, a lot of people fail to see the issue with wanton violence as long as it's to stroke that lust for vengeance. And vengeance is a theme that Elden Ring criticizes multiple times in a row, even beyond the obvious horror of the Crusade.

#elden ring #dash commentary #hornsent #marika the eternal #fire giant #elden ring observation #elden ring reference #screenshots #this is like the most fun character discussion I've had since a drunk chat about lady maria's crimes a year ago #there are so many details I ran out of 30 images limit fdggshfdgsdfs

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