#rhaenyra's children

[horizon-verizon]

Why exactly does HotD feel the need to ignore that Rhaenyra, Rhaenys, Laena, Baela, and Rhaena already had characterizations that are not only tied to their actions, but also manage to distinguish them from each other while also linking them to one another?

The "boring" and "dry" source material managed to give us five related women who expressed a "Targaryen woman's strength" and agency in five unique (but still related) ways. And HotD thinks it's somehow an improvement to insist that actually, no, they're all just (by circumstance) variations of a "generic targ girl" template.

The same people who removed Jace's accomplishments, which in turn were a statement about Rhaenyra, and filled in the characterization void they left by portraying him as a mini-Daemon moreso than Baela, because Baela can't be her mini-Daemon book!self because that suggests a good relationship and Daemon needs to have as many of his good qualities removed as possible and as many new crimes invented as possible, including one that necessitates stripping Laena of her characterization, in order to service an invented "redemption arc" that will be used to justify removing Rhaena's characterization for a nonsensical dragon conflict that consumes her whole identity to the point that she ends up merged with another character she has nothing in common with.

You can't change core traits of characters from a book like Fire & Blood. The fact that the characters feel so "utilitarian" might make it feel like you can. But the fact that they're utilitarian means that all those (interconnected) traits are there for a reason because all their (interconnected) actions are driven by those traits.

And yet something tells me these writers are going to try to make a statement about "hubris."

The fact that the characters feel so "utilitarian" might make it feel like you can

@rhaenin-time

If Condal or Hess said this, flame them. If you can't design a person from the role given in the original work, you shouldn't be a creative writer. I really hate that you might be right about the hubris. Like, why the blacks? So do the Starks have hubris for having pride in their house or loving their family? No, so why the Targs and esp the blacks? Though they revealed themselves to be as close to Targ antis as they can get from all their marketing-focused internet search for how the general fandom regards the Targs and their narrative roles.

Part of the reason why they might think of these characters having no real distinct personalities is that they've never really adjusted to reading the book and picking up on characters from the mix of setting, actions, and words. The lack of PoVs triggers a certain wrong kind of detachment.

[lena-luthor]

[baby-girl-aaron-dessner]

“There is a childish juvenile level to us that comes to life in those moments. You saw Olivia Cooke bite her nails and become childlike as Alicent, you saw Rhaenyra become this brat at times…those are choices the actors made.” 

— Dir. Geeta Patel

[jellolegos]

And your dearest fantasy Is to grow a baby in me I could be a good mother And I wanna be your wife So I hold you to my knife And I steal your letter

Not a lot, just forever

[aemondwive]

"No," the queen was heard to say, "I forbid it, I forbid it," but even as she spoke her dragon flapped up from the yard, perched for half a heartbeat atop the castle battlements, then launched herself into the night with the queen's son clinging to her back, a sword in hand. "After him!" Rhaenyra shouted. "All of you, every man, every boy, to horse, to borse, go after him. Bring him back, bring him back, he does not know. My son, my sweet, my son..."

[chicken-wayng]

"Fuck that crown and fuck the Gods! I'm running away." Alicent says her eyes bear true Targaryen Madness as she rebukes the things that were once all she stood for, shocking Nyra with the bravery of her declaration. Then, her eyes soften like they always do upon seeing Her. "Come with me."

"Yes," Rhaenyra said, without thinking.

[horizon-verizon]

@rhaenyragendereuphoria' s reblog of your post is HERE, for anyone who couldn't see it.

Their post (image):

The links they provided goes as follows:

Men vs Women, and Hiding Parentage, and Bastardry is Not Real, it is only Legal, an invention and a Tool of Power -> https://www.tumblr.com/horizon-verizon/707104544636747776/i-support-every-devastation-coming-for-the

"Sex with the Queen" by Harman and Actual Historical Precedents of Keeping Parentage Secret -> https://at.tumblr.com/the-king-andthe-lionheart/i-am-anon-who-asked-about-rhaenyra-children-from/kwe1ymy22vix

Talking about the Looks and Appearance of the V Boys and How the Show Changed from the book -> https://at.tumblr.com/eschercaine/about-the-parentage-of-the-three-velaryon/sjk450kk0ah7

I’m finally reading the Accursed Kings series by Maurice Druon, I had not realized it covered the case of Marguerite and Blanche of Burgundy and ummm….. really has forcibly put HoTD back into historical perspective for me.

For those not familiar with it, the daughters-in-law of King Philip the Fair of France, Marguerite (married to the eldest son Louis) and Blanche (married to the youngest son Charles) were both caught having an affair with a pair of brothers. Needless to say, it does not end well for any of the parties involved. The men were flayed, hanged, and beheaded, and the two princesses were imprisoned, with Marguerite being murdered a year later so that her husband could remarry. And her daughter, Jeanne, who would have been the heiress of France, may or may not be a bastard, so is forcibly removed from the line of succession by the invention of Salic law, which dictates that the crown can only pass to men through the male line. (Since Louis who may or may not have been her father died without any male heirs) Unsurprisingly, this causes problems! And partly sparks (among other things) the Hundred Years War between France and England.

Having bastards is serious business with serious consequences for married women. And YES, it is absolutely unfair and ridiculous that men can do it with far fewer consequences, but the show downplayed what those consequences can be. In GoT, the whole starting point is that Cersei has illegitimate children and passed them off as her husbands, and people are killed to keep that secret. Not to mention the humiliating punishment that she has to endure, and she was only being punished for having sex as a widow!!!

My point is that Rhaenyra having bastard children is kinda downplayed in the show, and that this IS a big deal both historically and in universe was glossed over.

[nikinikori]

“What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms, [...] We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.”

— Maester Aemon Targaryen: "Game of Thrones"

[ibuprofenjuliet]

“Forgive me mother”- the last words of Joffrey Velaryon

[notalicent]

“She sent a raven. I do not care to read her message.”

House of the Dragon 2.02 | "The Burning Mill"

[horizon-verizon]

hello, i read this www.tumblr.com/universallyexpertfan/753881321066168320/firstlet-me-be-clear-daemon-is-loyal-to-rhaenyra?source=share The op made interesting takes, but I doubt the court would corrupt Rhaenyra and Daemon's children so easily. I mean, they are good kids but at the same time paranoia is real, power corrupts people, and certainly it would be a bigger mess (a civil war between rhaenyra's children) more horrible given that she,in opposite of viserys, did not have favorites (although i think she had) what do u think?

Excerpt that Matters:

Important note :Rhaenyra and daemon are clearly better parents than viserys and Alicent. The children all love each other and team black is clearly a very big and happy family. But then Viserys doted upon Rhaenyra so much yet when Alicent birthed two sons she was worried sick that she will be replaced as an heir. So it's totally possible that jace and luke felt that same fear and anxiety when they saw Aegon iii with his valyrian features. The siblings relationship between team green children is eternally cracked and one of the biggest contributor to that was the court of kings landing. I am a team black person all the way but i have to say that the reason why team black kids are so close to each other is because they are in dragonstone. They have no idea about the viper's nest that is king's landing even without the greens. The court has always been ruthless. [...] Jace is a very patient person but power brings a lot of paranoia with it. Jace loves his little brothers with all his heart but the constant murmur of the people around would eventually give birth to resentment or at least some self hatred. Meanwhile Aegon iii would grow and the snakes of kings landing would obviously try to get into his head and tell him that he is the firstborn son of Daemon and he's not a Bastard unlike his brothers. A child will reflect the environment that they grew up in. And even if aegon iii could not be persuaded i know Viserys ii could be. And i know that because book Viserys ii was a political menace who cared about only 2 things the targaryan bloodline and his brother.

Viserys' Character =/= Rhaenyra's Character

But then Viserys doted upon Rhaenyra so much yet when Alicent birthed two sons she was worried sick that she will be replaced as an heir.

I have a lot of posts on Viserys' characterization, bk or show. Here's a list:

LINK -- "What Viserys really did was to try to maintain a balance between his wife & his daughter, because he just inherently hated conflicts, had already married Alicent (so he didn't know she'd be so persistent), loved her AND Rhaenyra was his miracle child from the woman he probably feels very guilty about." -- Viserys was very focused on making sure that as many different people with different interests in him at different times were satisfied with how he ran things, which is why he often putting down Rhaenyra and Daemon's more norm-divergent ideas and behavior. Rhaenyra is decidely not like Viserys, she does not and will not compel her children to follow contradictory and fruitless orders or arrangements. She's more the type, bk or show, to try to listen to her kids' protests and reason through it. You might think Viserys was the same in Rhaenyra's youth in the show....no, the man decided to marry Alicent knowing Rhaenyra would have...words and didn't want to deal with that. He had options, do something like the Maiden's Day Ball but with more class. There is him breaking the deal or reneging on the deal with her about dismissing Otto for her to "happily" marry Laenor instead of trying to push for her marriage to be delayed--he brought Otto back. Which decidely endangers Rhaenyra's place at court bc now Otto is in close proximity to plot better. Of which Viserys knows but he also refuses to really confront that Otto and maybe others would go against his wishes if they had the chance. He in general hopes that others will play the game exactly as he would.

While it may seem that bk!Rhaenyra was like Viserys in that she also relies on her position or she seemed as ineffectual as Viserys in the Rosby-Stokeworth, etc. that was an actual precarious political situation unlike Viserys who again had options in a few of his own decisions, that is more to advocate for herself in a situation where not much else aside from her dragon does. She is also not desperate for others approval as Viserys was, not so. So she will not ignore those closest to her or force them into compromising positions--Viserys was not paranoid, he was just careless; her paranoia (which may or may not have even been as bad as it is told by maesters and different anecdotes to be) stemmed from actual events at least of betrayal as well as the justified fear of losing her mainly male supporters clashing.

The Kids' Upbringing/Characters

I am a team black person all the way but i have to say that the reason why team black kids are so close to each other is because they are in dragonstone.

That's a whole lot of assumption there. One, that even other siblings who don't grow up together absolutely 100% of the time willi backstab each other or suspect the other.

As for all the problems about the siblings turning on each other bc of pressures, kinslaying is so taboo it's not even funny. Maegor's shadows lingers...Rhaenyra already (assuming she is successfully Queen before any of her kids are monarchs) had to contend with that particular accusation without actually having kinslayed bc she was a woman, but now we're dealing with boys and there is no sign of proof that any of Rhaenrya's supporters cared abt her kids maybe being bastards. None. Don't forget, Cregan Stark and Jeyne Arryn, why they themselves decided to support Rhaentya AND her heirs...I doubt that Cregan or his direct children (unless something situationally coincidental happens) would prevent them from supporting Jace...esp if you believe the Pact of Ice and Fire existed b/t them, forever locking them and their kids in oaths that Starks apparently don't tend to break. "What if we get a Stark who doesn't care or is held back?" Again, this ignores that Rhaenyra had many more allies than just the Starks and Jace was her defacto heir...like Joffrey, she would have also made it so to make him her heir apparent de jure. Not to mention Jace married Baela, Luke married Rhaena (in this hypothetical). Luke would be Lord of the biggest naval force there is while beign brother to Jace; both their wives are granddaughters of a dragonrider (assuming Rhaenys is alive) who's not sitting idle if her grandkids are getting attacked. Even if it was just Baela, not sitting out. Baela and Rhaena both would also be dragonriders...if Aegon and Viserys both foolishly decided that they were now wanting to become kings, they are vastly outpowered.

Even if Aegon and Viserys were or grew up to be inclined to rebel or try to take their brother's seat...who exactly is trying to turn them against him and how much influence do they really have or how jealous & emotionally distant do these two boys have to become for them to be willing? Why and how did they become so influenced as Daemon Blackfyre, who unlike them, lived in a household of misery and emotional distance bc the father wanted to overindulge himself at the expense of those around him AND his mother was forced to live in the shadows and lose her birthright to a religious zealot of a brother. Brynden's generation comes from competeing women and their families' interests--Aegon IV's mistresses, that is. The Brackens and Blackwoods were already long-born enemies! There was absolutely no unity in this generation, unless we speak of the BryndenxShiera-Daeron II untis? Still, divided and comparatively to greens vs blacks...which we all know what heppened there.

It's such an assumption made from the belief that people grow to want power just for the sake of it more times than to find validation. it take s for granted the perceived norm of step relations and bastardry. We need a journey/explanation of character development to really prove why Aegon and Viserys would turn with how they grew up so differently from other noble children and esp in relation to their older stepbrother/half brothers who I don't believe for a min that they thought of as such but just "brothers". Very Valyrian, tbh. Like rhaenin-time says here:

In Valyria, "step" anything didn't have the same sort of value as Andal-FM step-relations.

Jace grew up both with much more people backing him up AND he, Luke, Joffrey are growing/were growing with stronger sense of self bc they were growing up in that sort of alternative space in their formative years. As I say below, Viserys (II) either needed more time to cook, he grew up with a suppressed fear of chaos that motivated him towards the "easier" path and because most of his life he had to essentially clean up his family's messes as their second, AND

i know Viserys ii could be.

Viserys had a whole different life from his other brothers--he was literally kidnapped and forced to grow up in a foreign land, as safe as he technically was. He lost most of the family and a chance of a dragon bond--he is more dissociated from Rhaenyra than any of his siblings, which is why he's the more adamant about maintaining the succession practice and family line arrangements that coincide with the lay of Andal customs--so another succession crisis doesn't erupt. We can't make as his he is a good example at all to evaluate the others who lived longer and had a stronger impression of Rhaenyra's influence and authority than he did. Given more time, we also don't know if Viserys would have been more amenable to an alternative succession plan for himself...

This all speaks to a reduction of Rhaenyra's/a ruling mother's influence over her own kids, tbh. Fact is, we'll simply not ever know.

Even if she did have a "favorite", how she'd handle her kids while having one is not likely going to be the same as how Viserys did.

It's kinda like the Queen Elizabeth I vs her son Charles and how they dealt with family intrigue or public faces and how we see a clear difference there. Under a more family-conscious/prioritized woman, the royla family didn't really go through terrible public crises and yes there are some secrets that deserve some digging up....with Charles, it's every fucking month.

And I'm talking about critically healthier dynastic, internal unity that comes from a good parent being firm but fostering strong bonds between the kids no matter the environment bc they themselves or more or less adjusted, adaptable, and have a strong enough will to establish boundaries wherever their family goes.

So honestly, it bleeds a lack of faith in this unique family. Is the possibility 0% there won't be some sort of trouble, sure. When in life is there ever a perfect 0% or a perfect 100%? But also we can and often do make good guesses on probability through our observation and rely on said material evidence that we use to make our conclusions that we base our decisions on. These characters are capable of the same as well as a change of values but we need to ties those changes and developments to actual specific events that build up on each other for them to turn out the way they do when the evidence before suggested that such a thing was unlikely.

So the other problem I see there is that the person is making a lesser possibility into an unavoidable or very likely probability without giving much evidence and relying on assumptions based on traditional observations from conventional family patterns that this family simply deviates from in many ways. Therefore, again, you need material evidence that Aegon Viserys = Daemon Blackfyre or this "bastard" situation is the exact same as all the others apart from your own assumptions. It all seems overly cautious, nonanalytical, too avoidant-focused--ironically is what Viserys I did. You gotta pursue the implications of the difference sometimes further than the environment. We are not all our environment and we aren't always so affected by it as to go wherever others wish for us to go.

And I partially blame HotD, bc they really made it so that we can't even speculate much abt the boys' parentage as much as we could book-wise since Rhaenys was dark haired from her Baratheon mother and some Targs even before Rhaenyra's generation came out with nontypical Targ features: Alysanne and Alyssa. And we don't get to see how people out of the court saw things. I'm talking about the impression on the audience made through scenes HotD could have built to establish to contextualize and make stakes for how the greens v the blacks interacted and competed in court and out for political dominance before the actual war. Who favors who and why?

[jessmalia]

Did you think I would have dark hair? When you took Alicent Hightower into your bed, did you think I might favor her, or did it not cross your mind?

[horizon-verizon]

It’s an interesting theory and it makes me want to go back and see the deal with this Mellos maester. His background and whatnot.

About the parentage of the three Velaryon princes...

Just my rant. If you don’t like it, back out now.

The House of the Dragon producers made the Velaryons black and changed Rhaenys’ hair color to make it obvious that Rhaenyra’s children were bastards.

The Velaryons shares the Valryian look of the Targaryens.

House Velaryon is of Valyrian descent, and its members often have Valyrian features, such as silver-gold or silver hair and purple eyes. Some Velaryons have blue eyes. — Fire & Blood, The Sons of the Dragon

In contrast to the tv show, book!Rhaenys has black hair because she inherited it from her mother, Jocelyn Baratheon.

Rhaenys was a great beauty. She had black hair and lilac eyes. By the time she was fifty-five, she had a lean, lined face and her black hair was streaked with white. — Although The Princess and the Queen, published in 2013, stated that Rhaenys had silver hair, this has been changed for the publication of Fire & Blood, where she is described to have had black hair, like other Baratheon descendants.

Jace, Luke, and Joffrey could’ve inherited their dark hair from either or both their parents. Laenor’s maternal grandmother is a Baratheon. However, we have no knowledge about Corlys’ parents. Rhaenyra’s maternal grandfather was an Arryn.

Regarding Harwin Strong, the alleged father of the Velaryon princes, we don’t know the color of his hair or eyes or the shape of his nose, so we can’t actually confirm that he resembled the children. The book asks us to assume they looked like him because the accusations were made in the first place.

Breakbones was said to be the strongest man in the Seven Kingdoms in his day. He was described as being massive and redoubtable. — Fire & Blood, Heirs of the Dragon - A Question of Succession

The only confirmed member of the House Strong whose hair color we know is Lucamore the Lusty, once a member of the Kingsguard.

Lucamore was described as an amiable, strapping, broad-shouldered, young blond bull. He was a great favorite of the smallfolk in tourneys and was well loved at court. — Fire & Blood, The Long Reign - Jaehaerys and Alysanne: Policy, Progency, and Pain

...and he’s blonde.

About the accusations, wasn’t it Vaemond Velaryon and the Greens started those rumors?

With his trueborn children dead, by law his lands and titles should pass to his grandson Jacaerys… but since Jace would presumably ascend the Iron Throne after his mother, Princess Rhaenyra urged her good-father to name instead her second son, Lucerys. Lord Corlys also had half a dozen nephews, however, and the eldest of them, Ser Vaemond Velaryon, protested that the inheritance by rights should pass to him… on the grounds that Rhaenyra’s sons were bastards sired by Harwin Strong. The princess was not slow in answering this charge. She dispatched Prince Daemon to seize Ser Vaemond, had his head removed, and fed his carcass to her dragon. — The Rogue Prince

Yes, what Rhaenyra did to Vaemond was cruel. But she’d been made the subject of these rumors for 6 years by the Greens, and it had gotten to a point where Alicent and her children were taking them as fact and using them as justification to attack her sons.

Imagine that Rhaenyra’s children were legitimate. How should she have responded? Vaemond openly declared that he was going to oppose the legitimacy of both the heir to the throne and his future liege lord for very self-serving reasons.

Perhaps I’m just reaching here, but what if the Velaryon princes indeed had a Valyrian looks but were written down as having brown hair and brown eyes to demonize Rhaenyra? To show that she’s unfit to rule because she birthed three illegitimate children?

After all, Grand Maester Mellos was in charge of writing the court chronicles during King Viserys’ reign before dying and also a Green supporter.

In 120 AC, Mellos in his writings is the one that suggested that the fire at Harrenhal that killed Lord Lyonel Strong and his heir, Ser Harwin Strong, was ordered by Viserys. Mellos implies that the king had come to accept the rumors that his grandchildren by his daughter, Rhaenyra, were really bastards sired by Harwin, thus he desired to keep the truth concealed and kill the man who had dishonored his daughter. — Fire & Blood, Heirs of the Dragon - A Question of Succession

I enjoy watching Game of Thrones: Histories and Lore. So when I began to watch the story about the Targaryen civil war, I’m quite interested.

These are the Velaryon princes, Jace, Luke, and Joffrey plus Aegon the Younger and Viserys.

This is Prince Lucerys Velaryon.

I’m quite interested that they all have silver-blonde hair instead of brown hair. Or perhaps it’s just an error on the colorist’s part.

[nyracel]

hot take maybe but the only reason most show runners/producers/writers/etc. age up the (female) characters from book to show adaptation is to overtly sexualize them and not face mass amounts of scrutiny for it.

put 13 year old daenerys next to 30 year old drogo and the audience understands that daenerys is a victim to him and not an equal. put 22 year old emilia clarke as daenerys next to 32 year old jason mamoa as drogo and they’re seen as a budding romance with a tragic ending (by the general audience) due to their on screen chemistry.

flash forward to today, and now we’re dealing with 21 year old milly alcock playing rhaenyra from 14-19 and how her relationship with (28 year old fabien) a mid twenties criston is seen as -morally acceptable- and not a result of a degenerate pedophile taking advantage of and grooming his charge. “ser criston protects the princess from her enemies, but who protects the princess from ser criston?” rhaenyra was 14 when rumors started speculating that she slept with an almost 30 year old criston. a criston who had know her since she was 8 and had been her sworn shield since she was 9. obviously seeing a teenager in the early stages of puberty next to a fully grown man would emphasize rhaenyra being THE victim, as opposed to the show having an 18-19 year old explore her sexuality and seek out ‘consensual’ sex with her peer bodyguard. the discourse has even reached the point where certain stans try to paint the much younger woman as the perpetrator and aggressor of this event, who forced the unassuming man into having sex with her.

i’ll even take this a step farther, and bring up how if they had shown a 19 year old alicent abusing a 10 year old rhaenyra it would be identified and mutually agreed upon as a reprehensible act on alicent’s part. instead they’re of similar age, so people can attempt to paint the picture as two women of equal standing hating each other, and not a much older woman bullying a motherless child. once again however, some stans even go so far as to try and paint alicent as a victim of rhaenyra, and not the other way around. further cementing this is how both versions of alicent are younger than both versions of rhaenyra, AND how criston is still played by an actor who is younger than older!rhaenyra despite his character being the same age as daemon in canon.

they know exactly what they’re doing too, considering they aged alicent down to give her that innate compassion one typically feels when seeing children being abused on tv (something that can no longer be applied to rhaenyra). despite that never being her story; *she* was the abuser, and rhaenyra was her victim. criston’s victim. it’s a nasty cop out, and i wish more people would call out how sickening it is to flip the switch and attempt to make abusive individuals more sympathetic than the *actual* victims of said abusers.

[tessarionbestgirl]

Tb is sooo boring, because what you mean that you don't see the appealing of enemies to lovers, trauma bonding, war of roses parallel and the Romeo and Juliet coded on jaehaera and Aegon III?

[alicentflorent]

Alicent never raised her sons to believe women couldn’t rule and I don’t recall her ever suggesting Rhaenyra was going to be an incompetent ruler, her main criticism towards Rhaenyra was about her having obvious bastards that were passed off as legitimate which could contribute towards a succession crisis if someone challenges their legitimacy. She raised her kids to fear Rhaenyra because despite the fact that Aegon had no interest in pushing his claim “you’re a threat simply by existing” she raised them to believe that they could be killed for existing because other men might not accept a woman on the throne when there are male heirs and at any point the lords could rebel and try pushing the claims of viserys’ sons even if they pledge their support for Rhaenyra. She genuinely feared for her children’s lives to the point where it made her paranoid and impacted her relationships with everyone including her children. So can we stop with the “Alicent raised her sons to believe women were incapable rulers and shouldn’t be in positions of power and now it’s coming back to bite her” bs