#redemptive characters and the ones who hold them to account and love them anyway

[birdofdawning]

Hey you know what's sexy?

When Person A knows the terrible things that Person B did and never disregards those acts or dismisses the hurt Person B caused.

But they also refuse to define Person B solely by their past actions.

And the really sexy bit is that they won't let Person B define themselves solely by their past actions either.

[itsabouttimex2]

“You need to do better.”

(This gets vitriolic, and is a full-blown criticism of Macaque’s portrayal in Season Four and Five. If criticism of a character/franchise you like upsets you, I do not recommend reading.)

Wow. I had no faith in his character writing, and I’m STILL disappointed.

And it only took one episode! How impressive!

Macaque, who has put in ZERO on-screen effort to become a better person or make amends to his victims, is criticizing Wukong for being a bad mentor! And does Wukong criticize him back? NOPE!

After getting screamed at and berated, does Wukong defend himself? NOPE!

Ooh, but there was a second long reference in a dual yelling match that mentioned that Macaque was a genuinely bad person who took glee in hurting innocent people! Oh, fucking delightful! Ooh, Wukong even points out in one episode that Macaque goes without consequences!

Pointing out a flaw in your writing does not make it less of a flaw.

Macaque will always be allowed to do whatever he wants to anyone he wants- power theft, attempted murder, insults, deceit, assault-

And the narrative and characters will never hold him accountable or force Macaque to look inwards or become a better person.

Macaque will always fall upwards into redemption without any obstacles or pushback.

There will never be a struggle to goodness with a satisfying conclusion. There will never be a moment where falters in his newfound goodness and questions going back to his old ways. There will never be explicit remorse or regret. He will never have deep introspections on his crimes and atrocities that provide a reason for him to want to change.

The sum of his “arc” will always be “you were a good guy all along”, and that lack of depth is where it will stay.

RIP Seasons 1-3 Macaque. You were fun and interesting and cool and lovable.

But the man they replaced you with was destined to be a boring and brooding “anti-hero” who has no real connection to the actions you selfishly and violently performed with your own two hands-

And you will always be a less interesting character for it.

The execution of the actual arc boils down to a single heroic (but ultimately self-serving) moment and then Macaque is immediately forgiven for all the crimes he’s committed and is a magically better person without any effort and nothing he’s done is ever brought up again.

It severely weakens any character’s arc to cut them off from their past actions. If MK forgot his traumas every season instead of carrying them forward- we’d all agree that doing so was a case of poor writing.

It was the reason that people disliked Mei’s portrayal in Season Four- she immediately moved on from the Samadhi Fire arc and “no longer wielded it” after spending a whole season gathering and learning to use it.

Why can’t we agree that it’s bad for Macaque, too?

You can’t “develop” a character by dropping an entire plotline and writing it off with one line.

You can’t “redeem” a character by pretending that they were a good person right from the start.

Sorry, bud.

I really did like you. I just wish I could like your writing.

——————

And, what is more clear to me now than ever?

People only defended Macaque’s shitty writing because they think he’s hot.

I know this now, because I’ve seen white-hot Li Jing arc hatred from fervent Macaque arc defenders.

So we all agree that an “I didn’t really mean it!” isn’t an excuse to abuse the people around you? That you don’t get to mistreat innocent people just because you’re stressed and upset?

Hmmm.

Hmmmmmmm.

I wonder why people despise Jing for his dogshit “one nice thing redeems all your bad actions” arc but love Macaque for his??

(Because they think the monkey is hot.)

The funny thing, though?

Li Jing apologizes to at least one of the victims of his actions. He expresses regret and remorse.

Macaque doesn’t even have that.

——————

Anyways here’s a line that I hate because Macaque has in no way developed enough to have the right to deliver it-

AND NO, SUDDENLY HAVING AN AFFINITY FOR PERFORMING KIND OR SACRIFICIAL ACTS IS NOT GOOD CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT

HIM MAGICALLY OFFSCREEN BECOMING A GOOD PERSON WHO CARES ABOUT INNOCENT LIFE IS NOT GOOD CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT

IF ALL IT TAKES TO “BE BETTER” IS ACTING LIKE A HERO, WUKONG IS LITERALLY A THOUSAND TIMES BETTER OF A PERSON THAN HE IS

THIS LINE IS DOGSHIT

“You need to do better.”

Really, Macaque? Maybe you should take your own damn advice- try apologizing to one of the people you tried to hurt and tried to murder in cold blood!

Like when you trapped MK under his staff after stealing his powers and tried to murder him when he was helpless?

Or when you kidnapped MK’s friends and tortured the kid by forcing him to fight them?

Or you led a violent assault against a palace full of innocent people?

Or violently beat his dear friends until they were screaming in pain?

Or assaulted Tang, who posed no threat to you?

Or threatened to murder an innocent girl if you didn’t get your way, then ran away (and encouraged MK to abandon her) first thing when it put her into a life-threatening meltdown of raw power?

(Isn’t it cool how NONE of these people have interesting or varied reactions to him doing this and ALL immediately are cool with him like a gelatinous hivemind.)

(Oooh ONE mildly questioning line from Pigsy but no anger over his adoptive son nearly being killed multiple times over)

(Isn’t it cool that no one has complex or interesting thoughts on this.)

(Isn’t it cool that by robbing them of unique feelings on the matter they robbed Macaque and the Monkie Kids of compelling and interesting interactions that could’ve helped flesh out their personalities and strengthen their characterization.)

(Isn’t it cool that Macaque and the Monkie Kids are actively denied intriguing character dynamics so Macaque’s shitty “redemption arc” can happen faster.)

(Isn’t that cool.)

Why don’t YOU do better, Macaque?

(In a way that is more satisfying than “one kind-hearted speech from a kid that I tried to murder changed my mind and now I am a better person but all my character development happened offscreen and without personal introspection”, at least.)

Also what the fuck do you mean by “do better”?

Be heroic and put your life in danger? He already does that! He’s done it more than you have!

Just tell MK that he’s not alone? YOU COULD DO THAT YOURSELF, MACAQUE!

Help MK with his traumas and fears? MK doesn’t tell anyone about those! He keeps them bottled up, lock and key, and actively refuses attempts to help!

Wukong TRIED to reach out to him, and MK PUSHED HIM AWAY! Was he supposed to tie the fucking kid down and torture the information out of him?

He respected MK’s boundaries by not pushing any further and letting him leave!!

WHY IS THAT A BAD THING??

What the fuck, man

[canonicallyobserving911]

Unseen Parent Redemptions and Retconned Characters

So... before season 7, parent redemptions were ALWAYS INCLUDED in the episodes. Hen had a conversation with her mother, Toni in season 4, Eddie had a conversation with his father, Ramon in season 5 and Athena had a conversation with her mother, Beatrice in season 6. Their redemptions were earned after talking to their children and ironing out the details of what went wrong and the audience saw it but something happened and most of it did when KR took over as showrunner. Now horrible parents like Helena Diaz, Sang Han, Margaret and Phillip Buckley and Shannon Diaz have all been retconned and appear to be completely unrecognizable.

In season 7 they had Eddie fawning over and acting completely delusional regarding the truth about his relationship with Shannon. She left Chris for almost 2 years but Eddie magically couldn't remember any of the things she did. He had this idealized bull$hit version of her and NO ONE told him it wasn't true. He didn't remember any of the bad stuff and the season ended with him still believing everything was his fault.

Helena Diaz was horrible to Eddie in 2x18 and during his flashbacks in 3x15 but now RG is saying Eddie has reconciled with both of his parents but reminder the audience only saw the reconciliation with Ramon and not one with Helena. She's the one who told him, "Don't drag him down with you Eddie". And she wanted him to leave Chris with her and apparently Eddie was so delusional about Shannon in season 7 that he just let Chris go with his parents. Reminder, one of the reasons Eddie put Buck is his will was so Chris WOULDN'T GO TO HIS PARENTS IF EDDIE DIED.

Then there are the Buckley parents and they just showed up in season 6 like f~cking pod people acting all nice and $hit. WTF is going on? Why can't they just show what happened between them and Buck especially after the way they treated him? Now Buck is all cool with their issues even though he begged them to love him anyway.

Sang Han wasn't any better because Albert's mother guilt tripped Chimney into believing he was wrong when Sang was the one who treated Albert better than Chimney and he abandoned him too. Mrs. Lee told Chimney his father was an ass in 2x12. But Chimney just forgave him without taking Hen's advice in season 6.

Finally, don't even get me started on what RG said about Marisol. Neither Eddie nor the audience knew her last name and by the end of season 7, he didn't even want to have sex with her so how was Eddie supposedly seeing a life and a future with her?

None of this makes any sense and it's like the mains are acting OOC even more. They aren't showing the things that are happening and it's retconning characters who don't deserve it because they didn't show the redemption.

Do the writer's even watch the previous seasons before they write these episodes because this is BS?

The truth is some parents are $hitty and they can be forgiven but the BS they did shouldn't be forgotten. What's the deal with 9-1-1 poorly portraying parents like that? Seems like someone's pushing an agenda and they want everyone to do what they did by blindly forgiving their parents but it's perfectly OK to hold parents accountable for their bad actions.

BE CLEAR, THIS IS MY BLOG AND IF I SAID SHANNON DIAZ IS A BAD PARENT, I MEANT IT. DON'T REBLOG THIS TO ARGUE FOR HER OR ANY OF THESE OTHER $HITTY PARENTS. CREATE YOUR OWN POST ON YOUR BLOG AND GUSH OVER HER TRIFLING ASS ALL YOU WANT.

SHANNON WAS A BAD MOM!

I SAID WHAT I SAID!

For that person who reblogged this trying to defend her, you've been blocked.

[tokyo-daaaamn-ji-gang]

Hello! I just wanted to share a few thoughts after seeing the Takeomi hate come back once more. Feel free to ignore it :)

The whole Takeomi debacle is kind of fascinating to me because on the one hand, it's definitely in part because he never really got to shine in the manga (I do wonder if Wakui was rushed to finish the story and chose to make him worse in the character book to more or less wrap things up).

On the other hand, however, I often wonder if it isn't a case of the fandom getting attached to their initial expectations, only to get sorely disappointed down the line. I remember the rain bringer chapter, when he was introduced: at the time the fandom was getting really excited to see new (and older) characters and it gave birth to a lot of theories, based only on these few lines and his design. It might be a bit caricatural to put it like this but it seemed at the time that many people expected him to be some kind of sexy mafia boss with a complicated backstory, so when he was revealed to be kind of a ''loser'' / mostly a normal dude with a different kind of complicated backstory, the expectations took a serious blow.

Anyway, this is just my two cents on the whole thing. I remember I was also disappointed to see him (and Sanzu) pushed to the corner and never brought back again, I would have loved to explore their characters a bit more.

And obviously, everyone's free to like or dislike any character (to each their own after all) for any reason. Takeomi's example just periodically invites itself in my mind 😅

I think the main reason is as you said, he never got a chance to sign or any kind or redemption for what he did. Even in the good timeline, it's shown he works with his siblings so must be on good terms with them but we don't get to see him actually interact with them and we don't know what exactly changed or how it changed for that to happen.

I remember the hype of when he showed up and thinking he was going to be a really cool character but he just never had his moment and his character suffers a lot from the whole telling and not showing thing. Like we know he was very important to the first gen black dragons but we don't get to see him in action or know what he did besides come up with good strategies. The rest of the first gen black dragons don't have this problem because we either see them fighting or they have loveable personalities/ have done a lot of good. Unfortunately Takeomi doesn't really get this, instead we get told he's important, have a panel or two of people cheering for him, see how he got corrupted then see how bad he was towards his siblings.

Speaking of his behaviour towards his siblings, the other issue he faces is that we never get to see the other people at fault. His dad and seemingly his grandmother are arguably a lot more at fault for what happened since they forced a child to raise his siblings. Takeomi didn't want to be "like a father" and he shouldn't have been forced into taking responsibility for them. This 100% doesn't excuse Takeomi's actions and he is still at fault, but I think the adults in situations, who should've been the responsible ones deserve some blame too. But because we never see them, it's harder to really hold them accountable.

Then we have the character book, Takeomi was already hated before that released but that's what really cemented him as being bad. Most of the character book profiles are light hearted, they either give us some funny moments or they show a softer side of the characters. Or they just give some basic info that we kinda already knew. But Takeomi's? (And somewhat the other black dragons) it just paints him as being so much worse then I assumed.

So I don't think it matters if anyone likes or dislikes him, as long as they don't harass anyone over it or be rude to anyone with the opposite opinion.

[thestarlightforge]

What the Antihero, Your Villain, Has Left

12/31/22

***

It’s interesting how sometimes, the early stages of grief are anger, and these fade into sadness until sadness is all that’s left for a long time—and sometimes, it’s the other way around.

When I was a teenager and had a messy friend-divorce, a situation which left me extremely isolated and cut off from most of my close friends, it was sadness that followed fury. I was angry for years—about how they behaved, what they had said, their abandonment and betrayals. Until eventually, I just missed them—their memories lit in blues, shades of melancholy finally mixing with peace.

But even now at age 24, when you would hope such things would seem less material than in childhood—since adults, in theory, can choose where they go, where they live, and who they see—when I have to leave my extended family after holiday visits, I am left not with sorrow, but with wrath.

For much of my childhood, I simply cried when we left them. I didn’t cry much as a kid—my sibling cried more often—but when I got injured (Brittle Bones) and when we would leave: Those were the times I cried. We would get in the car, and I’d weep for hours. That kind of crying that’s so intense, you choke on your snot from the utter hopelessness. Sometimes, I’d barely get out a “goodbye.” Just had to hope they knew.

Some of those tears were angry, I’m sure, and sobbing can tear forth from the body as violently as screaming can. But in theory, crying is a more helpless, sad emotion, relegated to emasculation—while anger breaks out, from snide remarks to roars, imbued with some fool’s-gold version of power. Whether erudite or brutish, ire can feel like strength, like righteousness—like taking control back.

There is a black torrent of feeling that pours from waves of this realization: That other people could have chosen a whole different life for you, but they didn’t, and you couldn’t. That a world almost existed in which this endless cycle of grief you experience was replaced by a robust support system of family and community—no matter how broken or strange—when you were so young, you couldn’t even form memories of living far away. But it doesn’t exist.

You don’t know how things would’ve turned out in this other world. But from the little glimpses you’ve gotten every school or work vacation all your life, you feel like it would’ve been a good one. A life where, when disaster struck, family may have shown up more often (whether by will or ability). There would’ve been places to go, people to see, when fighting started or struggles arose. Friends to hold in good times and sad.

What or whom you might’ve missed out on in this phantom reality, you do not know—who you may or may not have become is anyone’s guess. But you would’ve been free of this bullshit, anyway.

It does not dignify abusive characters, of course. But I wonder, sometimes, if people who condemn antiheroes, or characters who struggle to do “good,” simply have not tasted much of disempowerment. There is an emptiness, a longing, a helplessness so profound it struggles to find description—and from that, a bitter, deep and primal rage—that is wrapped into the understanding that you almost had the love you deserved, but it was taken from you. That even if you manage to build new things, there are worlds of love you missed out on—worlds you didn’t have to miss, if only for a few different choices.

Tragic corruption arcs in stories are composed out of characters having blended culpability for this: Characters make some of these choices for themselves, usually after some are made for them. Redemption arcs come after and, as much as I love them, sometimes have a habit of individualizing the consequences of systems of oppression—characters accept blame for their own traumas, instead of anyone holding the people or oppressive world who hurt them accountable.

But either way, the best written antiheroes and villains emerge from shadows of love.

Even if someone hasn’t experienced this personally, art is meant to confer empathy—I don’t understand why the “complicated antihero/villain” phenomenon is so hard for some people to grasp. Maybe because they would rather stay in sadness. Because they want to believe they wouldn’t pick up the daggers, the magic or the poison. That they could never lash out so. That if confronted with the power to remake their world—to tear their love and justice from the jaws of those who took or would take it, or at least to punish them—they wouldn’t be tempted.

But as I sit in the back seat of the car, my parents driving us away from my loved ones once again, my disabled (24 y/o) “adulthood” be damned—away from the kinds of support systems that nearly all of my cousins, aunts, uncles and grandparents had close by all my life, while my parents, sibling and I lived elsewhere:

I understand.

[kevin-the-bruyne]

Sorry, same anon from like your last 4 or 5 asks. You'll let me know if I'm bombarding with too many asks, right? My insomnia decided to take over and so I've lost all self control rn. I do have an ao3 but I haven't posted anything in years. I'm too shy - hence the anon. But you've got blanket permission if you want to do anything with my little ficlet. Thank you for the lovely commentary, I'm glad you enjoyed it! =D

Same anon from before, just saw your other answer or would've put both in one ask. I found a clip of that video with English subs. First basically said that he doesn't wanna spoil us but also said him and khaotung have a lot of scenes together. I hope he wasn't messing with us.

anon im going to *expires* - why does he have a lot of scenes with khaotung what are they doing - if this becomes a buddy comedy where kaipa and alan band together to keep their love interests apart and falls in love in the process i might have to join the em twitter fans in their crusade against alankaipa asdkjshgjghjghfjh [i do need this to exist in fic form though lol]

but imagine - like as characters even without them being FK - Alan's path to healing and being able to trust again and also recognize his role in the way his relationship with Wen fell apart is actually a very strong storyline (and personally i feel its more compelling than JimWen's neglected suburban housewife getting with the poolboy vibe asdfghjhgfds dnt @ me plsss i promise i love EM lololol) Alan falling in love again centered around the themes of healing, redemption and second chances like riiiipppppp. the story then proceeds to just give you another single character who suffers a similar heartbreak but isn't dragged down by a jaded and grueling romantic past. Narratively, Kaipa is positioned almost perfectly to understand Alan but also inject his life with a little hope and maybe even call him out on his bullshit (just as a treat).

Kaipa saying, 'If we keep chasing after the one we love, do you think we'll ever be loved back?' in the same trailer where Wen tells Alan that he doesn't love him anymore like my adhd brain is making so many connections i can't even begin to sort through them.

A character who's vice is holding onto something a bit too tightly juxtaposed with one who's vice is neglecting the things that are important (they're foils your honor). They're at such different stages of their life faced with such different romantic problems but struggle with essentially two sides of the same issue: do i hold on or do i let go? and what role does love play in making that decision? what responsibility do i have to the one that i claim to love? Can two broken people heal each other? The only good answer (according to me) being only if they choose to: Alan and Kaipa can fall into tragedy just as easily as they can into healing and the outcome depends on an intricate balance between fate and choice. FirstKhao might be what brought me to AK but they are not the reason I've stayed with this pair and nurse their happy ending in the core of my heart. Anyway, I would love to help you regain your confidence so you feel comfortable posting on your account again. Like I'm not even joking your take on AK is really fresh and full of that hopefulness that really makes one believe that they'll make it without circumventing the difficult situation they're in. So tell me if there's anything I can do. also please send me asks whenever, you have no idea the favor you have done me (and @mr-iskender lol) in giving me this space to lose my mind over AK - there's only so much that someone outside the fandom can empathize with my constant AK yelling and EM fans terrify me too much for me to just go about posting AK headcanons before MLC has aired.

[phecdasolar]

*cracks knuckles* my time has come

Top of the list is one of my all time favorites I CANNOT get enough of them, may I present;

[T] The Echo Garden by AltraViolet

MTMTE/LL crossover with Transformers Prime (Soundwave specifically)

Incredibly slow burn crack ship taken seriously that’s actually really good I would die for them (It’s Rodimus and TFP Soundwave, just trust me on this it’s so good)

33 chapters and still going

206k words

The world building and character depth is phenomenal, even the background characters have personality I love them all so much this is a masterpiece of fiction I am *shakes you aggressively* PLEASE READ THIS

Next on the list is actually a short series by one of my FAVORITE Ao3 authors ApatheticRobots

[T] The fundamentals of conscious existence

Yes it is another crossover series if you can’t tell I really love crossovers I’m not sorry

Anyways crossover between IDW and TFP as well as IDW Shattered Glass in the last book

Ship is Wheeljack/Starscream

The fics basically go Wheeljack isekai, then Starscream therapy arc, then soft cinnamon roll Starscream meets angsty counterpart

Series of one-shots, being 10k, 17k, and 4K respectively, I don’t know if the series itself is complete tho

It’s just really precious to me and I hold them near and dear and close to my heart I hope you enjoy them the same way <3

Aight let’s see next thing I have is, uh. Well I found this in my bookmarks from like. 2 years ago and it’s basically a musical redemption arc I think..? I have no idea but it was good enough for me to bookmark so I’ll trust past me

[T] The One Where Everyone Sings by EHSparkwoman

Aight so from what I remember this is basically a DJD redemption fic but it’s. Done using songs. He. Megatron literally sings them into redemption I have no idea. The Greatest Showman is mentioned. I have no idea what’s going on. It’s funny tho so have fun

5 chapters, complete

28k words

I have no idea how big a part the ships play in this but the DJD is all in a relationship which, good for them, and then there’s also uhhhhhhh I just looked at the tags that’s too many to list but just like. The main gays basically, we all know who

I’m gonna reread this later actually I’m curious now

Let’s see I’m bound to have some more fics somewhere I’m obsessed with these skrunkly little robot dudes, I remember having some other ones I really enjoyed somewhere, it’s just been awhile- actually I’m going to dig around ApatheticRobots more, obviously I’m gonna find more great content hold on- OH! Here we go! Knew I could count on them :D

Anyways! more softness by ApatheticRobots here’s a mouthful of a title with a Homestuck reference to boot (love them)

[G] That’s a hell of a mystery no one thought was a mystery and didn’t even really need solving but damn if it didn’t just get solved so nice work

Two words: Paper cranes

Bunch of short scenes that connect together in the end

Pairing is CyWhirlGate but it’s not the main focus of the fic

One-shot, 3k words

Autistic Ultra Magnus my beloved he is so <3

Surprise surprise MORE content by ApatheticRobots I love them y’know what I should just link you directly to their account go. Go follow them and give them love they deserve all the nice things in the world I love them

[T] The good doctor, in the context of involving so-called ‘doctors of divinity’

Another series of one-shots surrounding Whirl going to therapy and his relationship with Rung. They are. So soft. Their friendship is everything to me. The last one-shot killed me five times and took everything I cared about. I love them.

3 one-shots, completed

Fics are 2.4K, 2k and 1k respectively

No ships this time just patient-patientee/friendship. They are special to me and I love them. Have I said that I love them? Because I do. Very much.

Heheh you got me scavenging right now I’m trying to find every single IDW fic I’ve ever read and loved thank you for giving me the excuse to do this :D

Okay I think this is the last one I have rn but if I find more I’ll update the list how about that :D

Fair warning, it’s a mildly inappropriate, but nothing ever actually happens bc it’s more just their type of humor? I guess but it’s FUNNY and I love them

[T] Winning Hearts and Minds (and Spikes) by TrebleTwenty

Basically the war propaganda goes from “Join Us Or Die” and “We Need YOU” to “Join the Autobots/Decepticons look how sexy our group members our, aren’t they gorgeous, Cybertron’s next top model but ONLY if you join” and it’s just. I’m crying it’s so funny please

4 chapters ongoing, though it hasn’t updated since 2019 so idk TvT

16k words

Immature inappropriate humor I am sorry for that at the very least but that is also as far as it goes I pinky swear

Jazz is an Icon™️ and peak comedy, Prowl is suffering, and Megatron is literally babysitting his high command and I am all here for it

Aight I think that’s all I’ve got for now, hope you enjoy!!! (^^) <333

I have officially finished Transformers Lost Light and I am now DEVASTATED emotionally.

Does anybody have good fanfic recommendations for MTMTE/LL or even Wreckers??? Doesn’t matter if they have pairings, OCs, etc I just wanna know the BEST fic you’ve ever read.

[applejuiz]

Terrible no-good headcanons about Nate’s death (bc if redemption refuses to adequately explore it, I guess I’ll do it myself):

Eliot is the first to really break down about it, that first night after the very long phone call with Sophie and spending the rest of the day edging around the others. By dinner he’s exhausted, and goes to grab some whiskey bc he needs something a little stronger than a beer, and immediately crumbles about it. It’s far from the first time he’s lost a friend, but how do you mourn someone who truly changed your life, who was family when you had none, someone who carried almost as much baggage as you but was trying, one of the few people who saw you complete, good and bad and in between, and stood by you anyway. He doesn’t talk to Hardison and Parker about it because he doesn’t want to be the one to break first, to disturb the fragile balance they’ve been maintaining for the day, but he holds them tighter for the next few weeks, and is the first to hug Sophie when they reach her.

Hardison makes it to the funeral. He’s fully prepared to be the steady one, the emotionally supportive one with the tissues and the water bottles and the wise words on grief. He throws himself into the taking care of things so Sophie doesn’t have to. There’s aliases to be scrubbed and accounts to be moved and managed, several different versions of wills to be sorted through until he finds the real one, and that’s even before planning the actual funeral, reaching out to friends and paying off the right people so they and any other people of dubious legality can make it through the funeral without being arrested. But when the service starts and there’s nothing left to do, just sit and listen and grief, it all crashes down on him. He spends the whole service leaning hard into Eliot’s side, gripping Parker’s hand too tight and struggling to breathe for the third time in his life.

Parker deflects quickly, convincing herself that they’re faking Nate’s death for a con. Usually they plan for these things together and ahead of time, but everyone else is acting very serious so she assumes it’s for urgent legal reasons. She acts along, very solemn and downtrodden, and if the others are confused by her occasionally knowing wink about Nate’s ‘death’, she writes it off as some typical miscommunication, as some vague disapproval of her breaking character when they’re obviously being watched very carefully. It takes a few weeks before she stops ignoring all the cracks in her logic, before she admits that if this was a con they’d probably be onto some next stages by now, that they’d have used some of their codes, that they’ve never gone this deep on a cover. She disappears for a day and a half, favors some of her usual hiding places to curl up and hurt before realizing how miserable it is to grieve alone and that she doesn’t have to anymore, that’s she can cry at home with her family and be supported. Nobody knows what exactly was the tipping point for her, and she won’t admit it for a few months, not wanting to be the weird one again before remembering that she’s okay, that they have her no matter what.

One of the final clues for Parker was Sophie. Because she never cries, never has a Moment or a breakdown or any of it. She’s been to a lot of funerals over the years, including her own. She loves a good death scene, but this is not a scene, not a performance, and she refuses to make it one, to play the grieving widow like it’s another role. Without the crutch of a con or an act, though, she’s lost in it, she doesn’t know how to process. She gets quiet. She gets contemplative. The pain is real and ever present, but she doesn’t know how to let it out in a way that doesn’t feel fake, that isn’t a way she’s faked emotion before. So she doesn’t do anything. Just sits with it, until it becomes a part of her, until it starts to become something she can carry, until she can start to see a way to move forward again.

[sazandorable]

About moderating and banning content on AO3!

Okay so! I haven’t had the spoons to do this for a while but I cracked and ranted about it on twitter which is... not... conducive to long rants, so!

This is a h u g e discussion part of the l o n g history that led to the creation of AO3, which older, more informed, and more articulate people have talked about at length and can be found around if you look (I reblog some of it in my AO3 and fandom history tags for the curious). So I won’t go into that here, nor into the practical reasons why it’s not even possible to put that system in place anyway.

Arbitrarily, or the purpose of this post, because it’s the biggest topic I’ve seen brought up lately, I’ll be talking about fic depicting underage characters in se*ual situations, but honestly I could hold the exact same conversation on literally any controversial content.

This is about why you, specifically, if you are a content creator and especially if you are marginalised and especially if you are queer and especially especially if you are sensitive to fiction depicting certain things... do not, actually, want a banning system on AO3.

What? Of course we do. There’s a lot of p*do shit on AO3 and p*do shit is gross. No one should condone that, wtf? It would be easy to do — just periodically delete the entire Underage tag!

What will happen if that is done is that people will re-upload and continue to write it, they’ll just stop tagging and you will run into it with zero warning nor ability to filter it out. Again, this is not a theoretical — we know this is what happens. When I was a teen, adult content (all adult content) was not allowed on FF.NET; it was everywhere regardless, and without tags. The exact same thing happened on tumblr when adult content was banned as well. It’s not a matter of “staff not handling it well” — it just doesn’t work.

To keep safe the people who need to be able to exclude that tag, that tag needs to exist and be used.

Well, shucks. A reporting system then?

A reporting system would operate in one of two ways:

-an algorithm, which would delete a lot of stuff we wouldn’t want it to delete.

-humans, which is... the bigger problem.

An algorithm sounds great. We do want it to delete everything.

Okay. What about the daddy k*nk fics between consenting adult characters? What about the fics featuring characters that are children in the canon but are adults in the fic? What about the fics about teenagers exploring their se*uality together, written by adults about the experiences they remember having or wish they could have had? What about the thousands of SasuNaru and Drarry and other shounen and YA fics that will get written, by teens or by people who remember being teens? What about the se*ually explicit fic written by teens who are se*ually active in real life? What about the fics about CSA as trauma, about healing from it? What about the fics written by survivors of CSA to cope about their trauma? What about the fics that clearly show that it’s evil and traumatic? What about the super dark, harrowing, but beautiful and artistic that I’m glad I read even though it fucked me up for days? What about the ones that were really shitty but also horribly hot?

Well, some of these are still not okay, but maybe some might be. It depends on how it’s written. We’ll have humans moderating content and deciding, then.

Okay.

The thing is, I don’t know which of the things I just listed were okay for you to be depicted in fiction and which were too much. Odds are I don’t agree with you. Odds are if I asked 10 people randomly picked off the street, not everyone would agree.

Odds are, even if AO3 arbitrarily decided on which of those are allowed and which are not, you would not agree with their choice, and you would still be unhappy with the decision. (Or you would be happy, but your friends wouldn’t.)

Odds are, different AO3 content moderators might not agree on whether a given fic qualifies or not — is it artistic enough? Does it show enough that these actions are evil and wrong? Can the author prove they’re a teenager? Can the author prove they are a CSA victim? Can the author prove that this is to help them cope with their trauma? The author seem to be functioning alright, they mustn’t really be traumatised!

You know what I mean! There’s absolute, objectively gross shit out there that is not artistic and should not be published.

I agree that there’s vile stuff out there that makes me sick and that I think is very clearly just ped*philic trash. But there is no way to, 1) stop those from getting published anyway, 2) take those down and preserve the safety of everything else.

If we start forbidding some things, there’s two ways to go about it.

One single, clear, arbitrary rule — for instance, absolutely no adult content featuring characters under 18 (leaving aside the fact that this would not even work for the reason cited above). So we lose all the stuff from teenagers, all the coming of age stories about adolescence, all the stuff from CSA survivors; people who need to write it can’t publish it anymore, and people who need to read it can’t anymore either (and as a cool bonus, they’re told it’s wrong and made to feel bad about it). Depending on whether the rules applies to characters that are under 18 in the canon, we lose entire fandoms.

Or, subjective moderation by humans, according to what they estimate to be gross.

Let’s assume all moderators can agree on what’s gross or not.

If there is a system in place to ban some underage works because “gross shit”, then that means other gross stuff can be taken down on account of being gross and harmful.

Yeah! Gross stuff should be taken down! Come on, surely everyone agrees on what’s gross and harmful.

Ah.

But the problem is.

Here is a list of things I have seen — with my eyes seen — called harmful to be depicted in fiction:

Murder

Non-con

Inc*st

Cannibalism

Torture

Self-harm

Mental illness

Drugs

Racism

K*nk

Non-negotiated k*nk, but healthy k*nk is ok

Spanking k*nk

BDSM where the woman is a bottom, but woman top is ok

Healthy depictions of BDSM

Unhealthy depictions of BDSM

Queer people doing bad things

Abusive relationships

Rival/Enemies to lovers

Redemption stories

A happy relationship between a 17 yo and an 18 yo

A happy relationship between a 20 yo and a 60 yo

A happy relationship between a boss and their employee, or a college teacher and a student

A happy relationship between a 14 yo boy and an older teenage boy, because that’s reminiscent of older men preying on younger gay boys IRL

Se*ual content featuring a character whose age is unclear in canon and some people headcanon them as being underage, some as being a young adult

Loving, consensual fluff between characters that are evil villains, because it romanticises them and their actions

Dark content shipping female characters

Fluffy content shipping female characters, because it’s misogynistic to act like lesbians are only soft all the time

Consensual s*x featuring a canonically asexual character, because it implies that all aces can and should still have se*

Fics about the same canonically asexual character hating s*x, because that erases the experience of s*x-positive aces

Shipping a character who is perceived by some fans as queer-coded with a character of a different s*x

The tendency to ship a black character with white characters

Fluffy drunk s*x, because that’s not actually consensual

Sleep s*x, because that’s not actually consensual

Trans characters not experiencing dysphoria, because that idealises the trans experience

Consensual s*x between adults that are not married

LGBT+ content, because kids shouldn’t see that.

I guarantee you: you, I, and 10 random people plucked from the street will not agree on what, in that list, is and isn’t okay to publish and consume fiction of.

So why should your taste be the one followed? Why should it be the taste of mods you don’t know? Why should anyone get to dictate? What if the mods think your OTP is gross and your NOTP is fine?

This is the slippery slope argument.

Yes, it is the slippery slope argument. Because we know it happens. Because we’ve been there, because I’ve seen it happen myself twice already and I’m not even thirty. Because we know people do complain loudly about all of these things.

And because the second there is a banning system in place, assholes will use the system to abuse it and get stuff they just don’t like taken down using the “it is gross” argument, and one day you’ll wake up and the beautiful fic that helped you come to terms with your abuse/trauma/identity/orientation/k*nk for feet will be taken down and wonderful vulnerable creative people will have been harassed out of fandom because they argued with 1 person who didn’t like their foot k*nk fic that happened to also feature, for instance, a CSA trauma backstory.

Again: not exaggerating. Not theoretical. It happens, we know it happens, AO3 was created literally because it happens.

I still fucking hate that stuff.

That is completely fine and normal. No one likes everything. Me too! Most of the dark stuff is niche and the creators know only few people will like it the same way they do.

(For the record, I get grossed out and triggered by fics about an asexual character who does not like s*x having s*x with their partner to make them happy. Deep in my gut everything screams that that’s fucked up, terrifying and harmful, how can people write that. But I recognise that there are people who love and need that, and I leave those people and their content alone.

OTOH, I read a lot of otherwise dark shit and I enjoy it in the same way I enjoyed, say, Hannibal, in the same way some people enjoy true crime documentaries, horror movies or r*pe fantasy k*nk. It helps me explore stuff that I like to see in fiction, in a safe, controlled way. I’m also asexual, 90% s*x-repulsed IRL, and, obviously, I would never abuse a child. For that matter, I wouldn’t kill and eat people, either, nor would I do 90% of the tamer k*nky stuff I read.

Of course, Hannibal was fucked up and lots of people probably think Hannibal was gross and should not have been aired — but as exemplified by the fact that it was created, aired and watched, lots of people thought it was fine, interesting and even fun to watch.)

You can and should curate your experience and protect yourself. The AO3 website now allows you to exclude certain tags, and people have developed tools to help with that such as plugins that save your filters or hide fics that contain certain words.

But no, it isn’t going to, and it shouldn’t, get banned.

[dekusleftsock]

https://www.tumblr.com/dekusleftsock/695140063574687744/httpswwwtumblrcomdekusleftsock69513673960551?source=share You don't have to apologize, I completely agree. I merely like to analyze said characters to see how they are reacting, since they don't always say so out loud. Also, when it comes to Rose Quartz I think I was in the minority who liked her better than Steven, flaws or not. I tried to like him, but as an extremely curious person his inability to ask questions frustrated me. Steven Universe in general had a good outline and message, but fell flat when it came to executing them. Ironically, despite never marketing itself as particularly pacifistic, mha has done better than a lot of shows at demonstrating forgiveness. Whereas the Steven Universe fandom weirdly grew more aggressive with time, the mha fandom has oddly gotten more open minded due to this series. People who once hated Endeavor and Bakugo began to like them and considered the actual message being sent: That bad people are still people. I think that's because mha engages it's audience. A lot of stories tell the narrative without trying to interact with the audience a bunch. You already mentioned it with explaining how to sneakily tell a queer story, but Horikoshi also engages the audience with Bakugo and Endeavor's opinion. The story starts off very disparaging of them, and gradually unearths their reasons and kinder side without forgetting what they've done. Due to that, most people in the mha audience relaxed their opinions and became more open minded than they were before. I think that's what mha did right that shows like Steven universe did wrong. Mha uses the audience's expectations against them, and then frames things in a way that holds the person accountable while also making them sympathetic.

(Sorry this took so long, I started this draft and then forgot about it sidndindudkd)

OMG IM SO GLAD YOU BROUGHT UP HOW MHA INTERACTS WITH THE AUDIENCE!

I’ll get to my whole thing with that in a sec tho, Steven universe time lol.

I think the main reason why Steven universe falls flat is because of how it really only knows one way to humanize a character: redemption arcs

What do I mean by this? Mha uses a plethora of architypes; from atonement with endeavor, to redemption with Katsuki. Steven universe though? It only knows how to use one: redemption arcs. And not even well! Tbh with you, Steven universe feels like it was written by a writer without much experience, or at the very least a writer who was never taught how to write by a professor. Which honestly makes sense with Rebecca sugar, since before this they only worked on music and character design in other shows (like adventure time) and they never actually WROTE anything. Unlike horikoshi, Dana Terrance, etc.

The ONLY character I think they actually wrote well was rose, and that’s partly to do with how she was the only character in the show who had an atonement arc.

And when they couldn’t make a “problematic character” a full redemption arc, they just… killed him and then revived him. Lars was abusive let’s be honest here. A total asshole (love him, but he was and I can admit that) and he was only given a redemption of any kind when he LITERALLY DIED! And with the other three diamonds it was so rushed bc they canceled the series (since a lot of countries banned the show due to ruby and sapphires wedding) and they TRIED to humanize them in the most.. spoon fed way possible and ughhhhhhhh. It’s just overall really bad. Peridot is the only good redemption arc in that show. Love her <3

ANYWAY, I think the reason mha ends up humanizing it’s characters so well is BECAUSE of how it interacts with the audience. Often times playing tongue and cheek with a few things. The “lip service” can, all mights secret love child, “sometimes I forget you guys are kids”, all of it. It’s all done to call out the audience in the most hilarious way to show a more pacifistic message. The most memorable scene in this series to me is when Katsuki is literally shouting his frustrations and feelings at the viewer; and I literally remember thinking, “wait… what?!” BECAUSE THIS IS NOT A NORMAL SHONEN THING! This is so out of character for a shonen anime! When you go into a shonen, you have a certain expectation of what is about to happen. The female love interest is not given a personality aside from a few side comments, the rival/bully is the “bad guy” to some extent, there is some form of love interest competition, and it’s absolutely not about forgiveness.

And the reason for why I personally love this scene so much is because in only a few short lines it manages to take a character from a show, and put them into the perspective of an actual person. When we interact with people and how they’ve hurt us, we tend to only see one perspective. That perspective being that this person is bad because they did bad things to me. It’s hard to put ourselves in the shoes of other people, and it’s just in general EASIER to dehumanize a bad person. (Endeavor, Katsuki, Rose Quartz, the list goes on) But it IS easier to like a villain (like shigaraki) when you frame the bad things they’ve done as something that you couldn’t directly experience. Not many people run into others with murderous rage and experience some sort of trauma from it. Most people were bullied or had abusive dads. Not only that but you also end up giving these characters with murderous rage very relatable problems; so it’s easier to separate them from their bad actions to solely focus on them being a victim in one way or another.

AND YOU KNOW THE BEST PART ABOUT THIS SCENE? ITS LITERALLY TELLING YOU, THE AUDIENCE, IN THE MOST PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE WAY POSSIBLE, THAT HE IS A TEENAGE BOY! He is HUMAN, he has FEELINGS. There are actual reasons for why he does the things he does! And my fucking GOD I could talk about for hours on why I think the internet cringifying fandom, and making the whole “why are curtains blue” meme, and Disney movies (derogatory) just ruined an entire generations ability to analyze storytelling at even a BASIC level.

People were SO SHOCKED and AMAZED when encanto came out because it didn’t have an actual villain in the story and that just makes me so MAD! Because there’s so many stories like this! So many where the villain isn’t actually a villain! But because it’s DISNEY and everyone always talks about Disney! People were absolutely baffled by it. So many people online had to explain a VERY BASIC analysis of the movie because people don’t understand how to analyze stories. Disney didn’t know how to make a realistic antagonist. No, instead they made characters like GASTON, and URASALA, and god, so many more. I wish people grew up in studio ghibli movies if they were gonna grow up on disney movies at all bc it at the very least teaches a different perspective on what makes a villain.

Mha is great though because, like you said, it started them from the ground up and then humanized them through very specific scenes. Endeavors was done gradually through a multitude of perspectives, while Katsuki’s was done through self reflection and action.

I’ve seen people make the argument when people compare endeavor to Katsuki that they are “completely different and have different motivations!!! Katsuki values his own abilities to be the best and get to number one on his own, while endeavor trained a kid to be the best from a young age that would surpass him!” Obviously they aren’t the same character. BUT, there’s an argument to be made that endeavor and all might are parallels of Izuku and Katsuki. And that’s just, a fact. All might even talks about how Katsuki is similar to endeavor.

That’s why Katsuki is actually inspired by endeavors ways of atonement. He learned how to atone through his actions with Izuku and then even apologized to him.

This is all to say that mha radicalized a fandom lol. I’ve seen people literally make the same anti cop arguments but for heroes; it’s great! It’s got a lot of wisdom in it.

[itsnothingofinterest]

Hey, wanna know something kinda sad I realized? Every relationship Endeavor has is based around utility.

I mean of course there’s his family: He only married his wife for her to give him his perfect heir, and up until the present he only ever showed affection to the one most capable of being that heir; emotionally neglecting the rest completely, as we can tell from Touya’s treatment and Natsuo’s recounting of his own childhood. And even now, with his “redemption arc”, it feels like with his realizing his rank won’t satisfy him and the things he did to get it not worth it, that he’s only trying to make up for things for a new purpose; convincing himself he’s a good person who loves his family. (Especially given how much he mopes about his family not liking him.) Not once has it felt, to me anyway, like he’s done something for any of them that wasn’t self-motivated; with his kindest actions being the ones that were only partially self-motivated.

And now, he’s on the opposite side of that with the rest of the family; where it seems they only really interact with him for what he can do for them or their other family members. From the start, Shoto’s only ever professionally worked with him for what such a high ranking hero could do for his own career, and seemed to only really be open to giving him a chance because Rei and Fuyumi seemed open. But they were only really open for his and each other’s sake; which is also why Natsuo humours the idea at all, he was just more open about that fact. And now with recent events; they have put genuine trust in him, but only for Touya’s sake. To his family, who have each only every (at best) been a means to an end for him, he is only ever (at best) a means to an end for them.

And of course this is true for his professional life too, the core of his being for so many years of his life. Of course he has no friends in that professional life; just employees and coworkers who work for/with him out of mutual convenience. And of course, even his long obsessed-over rank is based more on how useful he is to the public than anything else (numerous sources have shown he hardly owns much of it to plain popularity, though even what popularity he does have serves a purpose now). Heck a lot of fans, many of his own defenders even, have theorized that he owes his utility to not being in jail after Dabi revealed all his crimes. The No. 1 hero is too useful in these trying times for the other heroes to arrest him; justice be damned.

And meanwhile everyone who doesn’t have use for him, be they villains actively fighting him or civilians deciding they just don’t need heroes, well they all seem to hate him. In fact I find it interesting that Dabi, the only other Todoroki more concerned with his own feelings and well being than any of his family members, is the only character in the series intentionally trying to hold him accountable for all the things he did.

The man has no one he genuinely unconditionally loves or that unconditionally loves him. Everyone he interacts with, their relationship is directly proportional to how useful they are to him and/or how useful he is to them.

What a sad existence, if one very fitting for his character.

[hamliet]

What Does It Mean to Save?

I keep seeing it said that Deku, Ochaco, and Shouto will “save” Shigaraki, Himiko, and Dabi, but that there will be no redemption and/or no survival for them. I’m truly not trying to vague these posts and everyone is entitled to their opinion, but literary criticism is fundamentally responsive so I’m writing this anyways.

I personally think that’s not BNHA’s definition of saving nor of redemption. So here, have a deep dive into literary tropes related to redemption, genre, and character arcs as they pertain to BNHA and the question of: what does it mean to save Shigaraki, Touya, and Himiko?

Before we begin, let me say that while we might be personally uncomfortable with redemption (there’s a redemption arc in BNHA I am personally quite uncomfortable with), that doesn’t inherently mean the narrative won’t go there. The key principle I’m operating on here is BNHA’s message that heroes save people. It’s held up as the highest ideal. 

So let’s talk redemption in BNHA-verse. With this guy, whose redemption arc I dislike in principle but accept as part of the story so don’t come for me stans and/or antis. I’m analyzing because it shows us what redemption means in BNHA-verse, whether or not that is satisfying to you personally as it fits/does not fit with your own morality/philosophy.

If Endeavor can be redeemed and live, and he’s Bakugou’s negative foil, I highly doubt Shigaraki and Deku as well as Touya and Shouto and Ochaco and Himiko will be any different. Why? Because Enji is an adult character. The others--well, Himiko’s age we don’t know, but we do know that Shigaraki and Dabi are technically adults. But does the story consider them adults?

(It doesn’t.)

Child-coded characters are generally more likely to survive a redemption, which I’ll explain more later. First I have to define what I mean by child-coding, because I DO NOT mean this in the way it’s often (mis)used in fandom wank. Child-coding is a real thing, but it is not done to infantilize and it has nothing to do with shipping.

Child coding frames the character as a child for a few narrative purposes to convey a story’s theme or purpose. For example, if it’s a coming of age story coding a character as a child even if they legally are not emphasizes their journey to an understanding of self-actualization, or a true understanding of self with self-awareness and an understanding of self-value. An example of an adult coded as a child is The Kite Runner, wherein Amir is a legal adult for half the story, even married for fifteen years so we’re talking 30s-40s, but he does not truly become an adult until he returns to his homeland and takes responsibility for a childhood sin. In Attack on Titan, the main characters are now nineteen, but are still struggling to take responsibility as adults and have only started doing so now that their mentors/parental figures have started dying.

Along those lines, in any kind of story, you can code a character as a child of someone, regardless of biological relationship, to convey the type of relationship they have (usually a mentor one). For an example of this, see Bungo Stray Dogs’ Dazai and Akutagawa. Despite their two year age difference, Dazai recruited him to the mafia, abandoned him, and Akutagawa desperately seeks his approval. Usually in these stories a character will “overcome” their parental figure. This can be done through overcoming their need for the parental figure’s approval in stories where the parental figure is kindly (such as in Harry Potter, when in the final book Harry, Ron, and Hermione leave the Weasleys to find the Horcruxes despite Mrs. Weasley’s please) or through like, killing/stopping/leaving the parental figure when they are abusive (see fairy tales like Rapunzel and Cinderella). The parental link to self-actualization is because it is childlike (and a part of actual psychology that is reflected in literature) to see yourself as a part of your parent; self-actualized person would see yourself as a distinct person from your parent, but also acknowledge the ways in which they’ve shaped you.

So, how do you code a character as a child? BNHA isn’t subtle about it, because Horikoshi seldom is subtle about anything. The villain trio are all coded as children.

Shigaraki Tomura:

Who cannot achieve self-actualization so long as AFO has access to his body, as he’s literally trying to possess him. He’s trying, but it’s not gonna work because Shigaraki can’t keep AFO and become an adult at the same time. It’s a choice the narrative is setting up: your dream of destroying, or your freedom? (To get the latter, he’ll probably have to destroy AFO).

Todoroki Touya, who is repeatedly emphasized as a small child when compared to his siblings, and yes, I know he’s now tall. Specifically he’s spotlighted as the child of Endeavor:

And he’s the least self-actualized one in a lot of ways, contradicting himself constantly. I’m not Endeavor, DUH! But these are Endeavor’s flames! He’s gonna have to choose one or the other, because the tragic irony is that the more he takes out his rage on those around him, the more like Endeavor he becomes.

And Toga Himiko (who might well literally be a legal child), who is actually the most self-actualized one thus far, because she rejects Curious’s child insistence (Curious holds her in a Pieta pose, based on Michelangelo’s statue wherein Mary holds a deceased Christ):

She’s still got, like, a way to go though:

Because Himiko also wants to be like the people she loves to the point where she loses her own identity in them, which is er, not self-actualization. So she’ll have to choose whether or not she really wants to be like the people she loves or whether she wants to live her own way, which she herself tells us how that would end (death):

Deku said it himself: it’s good to focus on what someone is doing now. And look, I have issues with this statement and how it’s framed. I’ve talked about it at length and it was doomed to fail because Shouto himself told us long ago that it was annoying to hear a righteous speech by a stranger when you hadn’t gone through the same, plus Endeavor kinda failed by choosing being a hero over a dad here. But, the principle is that if the past doesn’t preclude Endeavor from seeking a better self, why would it preclude three characters coded as children, one of whom is literally somewhat the product of Endeavor’s sins? BNHA doesn’t think the past keeps someone from a better future. 

So what about Dabi’s counterpoint, which is indeed valid? Well, redemption doesn’t mean the past forgets, either. It’s complicated and nuanced, and we can debate how well Horikoshi strikes this nuance (it’s got its flaws), and admittedly I don’t know how this will go down in the future. But it is asking Endeavor: how do you redeem yourself to the people you’ve hurt? And we have Endeavor asking this question to Touya’s shrine. I mean, the foreshadowing is obvious. Endeavor has to redeem himself by trying to save Touya. However, it will still probably come down to Shouto to save Touya.

For our three villains, it’s a little harder to predict... well, sort of. For Shigaraki it’s extremely obvious: he has to help take down AFO. Dabi probably has to do something to help his family (siblings probably), but it’s vague. Toga needs help and not condemnation, but presumably she’ll help Ochaco with something.

So, is this redemption? I’d define it as redemption in the eyes of the narrative. To address what makes a redemption is another essay unto itself, but if we bring in the oft-compared Star Wars example: did Darth Vader get a redemption? Did Ben Solo? Everyone says yes to both. However, only Luke witnesses Vader’s redemption, and only Rey Ben Solo’s. So the rest of the galaxy? Doesn’t think so. When I say they’ll be redeemed, I’m defining it as their role in the eyes of the narrative, not whether or not society will accept them or even whether their victims will forgive them (of note, in canonical novels, Leia never forgave Darth Vader despite learning he was her father and obviously knowing Luke’s account of his redemption was true).

So, redemption in a narrative doesn’t mean all of society has to forgive and accept them. Dabi has still like, murdered 30 people--many of whom were thugs, but he himself acknowledges they didn’t deserve to die. Additionally, he himself also acknowledges that the families left behind--their feelings matter:

But why does that mean they have to die? Why even does it mean they have to languish in prison forever? (If there’s even a safe prison at the end of BNHA which I kinda have doubts about.) Heroes have also killed: see Hawks as Exhibit A. In fact, some people want revenge on the heroes precisely because they arrested or killed their loved ones (jail isn’t held up as a rehabilitative place in BNHA’s world. In most countries it isn’t in real life, either, but again that’s for another essay). So why don’t the League’s feelings on Twice’s death matter just as much as the feelings of unnamed and unseen (and thereby less important narratively) characters?

Additionally, regarding death... the villains routinely get called on their death wishes. Himiko’s determination to decide how/when she dies is called out because this is right  before Twice overcomes his trauma to save her, and the next arc they appear in is when Twice dies trying to save her again. Dabi’s suicide wish keeps him from getting close to others, and it keeps getting thwarted. Shigaraki’s obsession with destruction and death is clearly not a good thing, and his rejection of his family’s desire for them to join him in death this past arc is growth.

In other words: what Dabi said and what Snatch said about families and how they feel matter for the villains too. The villains are their own weird found family (Dabi as the deadbeat prodigal brother of both his families). Their deaths--Magne’s and Twice’s thus far, and I’m not ruling out further deaths in the future--affect the others. People’s feelings on losing loved ones matter. The villains are people, as Himiko said herself this arc:

Their feelings about each other matter:

How would Touya dying affect the Todorokis? At least they saved him spiritually, I guess, but that’s absolutely lame narratively, and if you have Enji eventually do a sacrifice to save Dabi (pretty likely, even if I personally think Enji will survive said sacrifice) then what’s the point of Dabi dying? How would Himiko dying affect society? As a martyr like Curious wanted her to be, even a redeemed one? A tragic warning story? What even is the point of Ochaco saving her if that’s the case? If Shigaraki dies, well, who would mourn besides Deku? How would Shigaraki dying affect the surviving members of the league? He just couldn’t be saved physically? 

It’s not impossible some of this happens, but it doesn’t seem like great writing, especially with panels like, oh, these that show us BNHA’s perspective on death:

Sacrificing something is a type of death that occurs in stories; this should happen in a redemption arc, which is why I’ve been saying Enji needs to sacrifice his hero reputation to help save Touya and even then it’ll still be Shouto imo who does the saving. But physical death?

If you want further analysis of the latter two panels and how they relate to the ending, see here.

We already have another villain who will definitely die redemptively (Kurogiri--an adult coded character--because he’s already, like, dead), and Spinner and Mr. Compress aren’t coded as kids so I hold them with anxiety towards the end. But again, this isn’t me being ageist or saying this is the way things ought to be in fiction or real life: it’s me looking at writing tropes and saying that child-coded characters tend to survive their redemptions. See: Zuko. Why? Because the death of children or child-coded characters is a tragedy. When a child-coded character dies redemptively it doesn’t feel like a happy ending and if framed as such, it’s often criticized for bad writing (see: Ben Solo). Curious even called this out in her fight with Himiko. I would hope Horikoshi doesn’t end the story being like yeah Curious was right that’s the best use of Himiko’s/Dabi’s/Shigaraki’s arcs:

Additionally, as for the believability of a character getting a new chance after so much destruction and murder... well, it’s kinda a thing in shonen and even in seinen? For better or for worse, it’s a thing. We have Vegeta in Dragon Ball Z and Kaneki Ken in Tokyo Ghoul (Kaneki, by the way, is absolutely an inspiration for Shigaraki). We can debate how well-written these redemptions are (I personally have been quite critical of Kaneki’s despite wanting it to happen narratively), but it can be done. BNHA’s Japan especially isn’t as harsh a world as Tokyo Ghoul’s Japan, so it would make even more sense for something like Kaneki’s ending.

The reality is that the cycle of revenge via hurting people and then leaving hurting families and loved ones has to stop somewhere. Someone has to be the bigger person and step up and be like “naw.” That’s heroic. That’s brave. That’s sacrificial itself. Justice itself doesn’t really exist in its purest form without mercy.

There’s another genre-reason I don’t see death or jail as likely (I could see, like, maybe a mental health ward like Rei’s? But it’s too soon to speculate).

If saving is considered a good thing for the story, if it’s truly the highest ideal, then saving someone should be rewarded by the narrative. The characters who save should have a positive result to show us this a good thing.

This is why it doesn’t work for the heroes’ end journey to be accepting that some people cannot be saved. The notion of just accepting that you cannot do something, you cannot save everyone, you cannot, cannot, cannot, is called out as a flaw of society. Determination, on the other hand, is rewarded.

We see it with Deku as well as with Mirio.

So, what if they save them and the redeemed characters then go on to sacrifice themselves in their redemption and die (come to the same end)? If saving changes absolutely nothing for the saved person, if it’s too late for the saved from themselves to change and/or do anything that matters besides die, then the narrative theme of saving as important is left unemphasized at best and undermined at worst. Simple intrinsic knowledge that the kids “did the right thing” doesn’t cut it for a story with so much focus on physical saving when the kids are already doing the right thing; moral struggles about whether to choose to be good aren’t really Deku, Ochaco, or Shouto’s arcs. It works for Aizawa’s arc with Kurogiri, but not for the kiddos. If BNHA was more of a philosophical/spiritual text, that would indeed make sense, but it is not. Genre-wise, BNHA is a fantastical superhero optimistic story, not a gritty real-world set drama.

[kung-fu-headcanons]

Hey there, I just LOVE your blog and your HCs, keep it up! But do you have perhaps, by chance, any headcanons for Shifu and Mei Ling (the vixen from the series)?

Aye sure thing

Sorry if these headcanons look like I gave up on it and forgot what I was doing 🗿

*insert We Don't Talk Anymore by Charlie Puth here*

Bro I remember seeing that Shifu had a love interest back in the day for the first time I was absolutely s h o o k e t h 😂😂😂 Shifu was my fav character (and still is tbh) so yea that was a wild trip

I kinda feel them seeing the other again was extremely awkward, sort of how you would feel after seeing a classmate after many many years or smth... basically it was just really WEIRD. Not sure if this genuinely happened in the show since I haven't seen that episode in a long time but either way...

Speaking of which idk if they ever genuinely got back together but who cares lol. I see them as just distant mutuals.

Back in the day Mei Ling would know EXACTLY what to say to fluster Shifu, so she would tease him sometimes it was kinda funny ngl

I mean Mei Ling kinda gives that kind of vibe anyways.. Shifu got used to it really quick lol

Mei Ling stole a writing utensil from Shifu without him knowing in their primary school years and she never gave it back. To this day, she still has that writing utensil.

Shifu definitely chided Mei Ling on not doing honorable acts and basically was the more responsible one out of the pair, he was successful in getting her to not at the beginning of their friendship (and relationship ig) but later on it got harder and harder to convince her what she was doing was wrong

So eventually she just made up her mind, though I think a small part of Shifu still believes she can change. Quite stubborn but that's just how it is ig

Y'all think Shifu wonders about what went wrong and where it went wrong? Like I feel he holds himself very accountable and thinks about what he could have done differently to not lose Mei Ling like that, though a part of him knows that nothing would have made anything different

Also this whole shabang is a part of his past that he does not speak about but of course when Mei Ling showed up to the Jade Palace that got slapped in his face

Cant remember how the actual episode went but to me Shifu should have/definitely pulled the "we're not on speaking terms" card for a while LOL. At least not until he felt ready to confront Mei Ling. There was probably feelings of anger and also just confusion, because like.. what

Do people have any interest with a redemption arc between these guys?? I don't really care but idk wouldn't it be kind of cool if they can be on at least okay terms

[luna-rainbow]

Ngl I would have been all for a storyline involving Bucky just going on a revenge tour across the world hunting down HYDRA agents still on the lose, particularly ones who specifically abused him. It would have been so cool and could have had a ton of layers involving healing from trauma and addressed questions about revenge. We seriously have the main heroic team of the entire MCU have a name based on avenging/revenge but Bucky's not allowed get revenge/justice for himself from HYDRA.

I know this storyline wouldn't have worked as well for a show also involving Sam, which I why I almost feel at this point that they either should have given Sam and Bucky each their own shows and just let them cameo/guest appearance in each other's shows for an episode. It would have allowed each character to grow and develop and then they could maybe have come together for Cap 4.

Thanks for the ask!

I’m going to start off with the ugly: we’re never going to get this story as long as Bucky is in Disney’s grasp. It’s too unsafe, it’s too anti-establishment, and even if it happens there’ll be some nauseating redemption at the end where he atones for the Nazis he’s executed. And because we’ve talked about how MCU!Bucky differs (EDIT: not defers, good grief autocorrect gives me an aneurysm once a day) from Comics!Bucky, I think sadly we will just never see this iteration of Bucky get the satisfaction of holding his abusers to account, even though he sounds like he deserves it the most.

There’s two main themes I want to talk about - first it’s the Hollywood idea that people who seek vengeance for personal wrongs are villains, but those who seek vengeance for deaths of loved ones are romanticised anti-heroes (or even heroes). Look at IM2 and IM3, vs say, Zemo or Clint. I believe this is partially why Bucky isn’t allowed to seek revenge. The thing is, should it be treated that differently? The deceased person will never be around to appreciate the triumph of seeing their killer punished; the avenger is doing it - just as any other personal vendetta - purely for themselves. The idea of avenging someone else’s death is more morally justified than avenging yourself is a bit of a…false fantasy, I think, because in both cases you’re avenging the life that “could have been”. In Bucky’s case, and in the Widows’ cases, they’ve had their entire lives taken away from them. Is it more wrong for them to want revenge, compared to the Avengers crashing in on Thanos to kill him after he snapped their friends?

The second is about Bucky. See, my head canon for Bucky is he’s really, fundamentally, not that much different from Steve. He’s also the kind of guy who can’t sit by and watch something go south. He’s also someone who doesn’t like fights but dislikes bullies even more. We see that in the way he treats Steve and stays in the war and joins the fights in CACW and IW. When you think about their life experiences - two kids who’ve really only had each other as peers through their formative years, who would’ve bounced off each other for their moral and ideological beliefs, it stands to reason that what we see in Steve would be very similar to what drives Bucky.

What I’m getting at is, even without wanting personal revenge for the wrongs done against him, as long as there’s any chance Hydra might rear its head, Bucky (and Steve - argh the forever lost Cap 3 movie) would not stand by and let it happen. Yes, I think there is a part of him that is exhausted by the fight - just as Steve is - but both of them are the kind of people who recognise there are some fights you just have to meet head on.

(Eh…this is the head canon I’m trying to work from for my fic anyway)

[scorpionyx9621]

While the art is left to be desired (i'm hope i use this ohrase right, my english is awful). I suprised that i found future state!Jason to be more enjoyable than Urban Legend one. Like he's way more capable there and [spoiler alert] also Bruce depend on him and still call him son? So you can have a bad ass Jason and good son jason at the same time.

So I need to apologize because this turned into a rant about Jason's characterization as whole and MAN is it long-winded and I'm sorry.

I have to agree. I really like the characterization Future State/Dark Detective is going for with Jason.

Jason is still the typical Jason we've grown to expect. Cold, cynical, snarky, willing to cross the dark red line and kill if need be, but he's still shown to have emotions. When he's betraying the family it's vocalized by Jason that he's upset about the situation. He doesn't want to, but he must for the mission Bruce put him under.

Truth be told, I'm not fully caught up on Future State/Dark Detective. I've kind of been reading spoilers and just getting the general gist in the periphery from people like you on Tumblr. I've been more focused on Urban Legends, which, while I will say I still don't hate the story, hell we still have two issues left of Cheer, and I by no means think Chip Zdarsky is a bad writer by any means. His characterization of Jason irks me.

*God I was so on the fence about Eddy Barrow's take on Jason until Issue #3. That right there? THAT. That's a handsome ass man Maurry*

ANYWAYS: I'm irked by Zdarsky's take on Jason just because of how hot headed and brash Jason is. Now don't get me wrong, every main writer for Jason has taken a bit of a different spin and while the big characters who have written Jason (Judd Winnick, Scott Lobdell, Tony Daniel) and while Zdarsky seems to be what I'm hoping to be a bit of a medication of Jason & Bruce's relationship. He's doing it at the expendature of Jason's characterization of being a damn near criminal mastermind.

If we focus on Winnick and Daniel's interpretation of Jason (Winnick wrote the original Under the Hood & Lost Days. Daniels wrote Battle for the Cowl) as well as all Pre-New 52 versions of Jason. Jason is a monster. Like genuinely a horrible human being. He still fights for right moral side (he kills mostly child abusers/drug traffickers and the likes) but this Jason is genuinely unhinged and while smart, he's absolutely monster. Hell, in Battle for the Cowl after hearing Bruce's final words, he has a villainous breakdown. Dresses as batman, and starts killing people. Judd Winnick himself said he sees Jason as a 'Psychopath' and there are a lot of very vocal people who say Winnick's original interpretation of Jason as a violent, misanthropic villain is the superior version and that Jason should return to this.

*I love to point out that I made a post on my alt account questioning Jason's age in this issue. Turns out he's Like SEVENTEEN. I get why they draw him older and more mature because of his darker/more villainous tendencies. But there's something kind of True Crime Podcast host fascination I have with this greasy, crusty, 17 year old who just casually kills 30 mobsters in horrific gun violence and calls it a day.*

Then we have the New 52. And in comes Red Hood & The Outlaws + the eventual Red Hood: Outlaw series. Piloted by the one Scott Lobdell. Now I know a lot of people dislike Lobdell for his takes on certain characters, his all-over-the-place writing style. (Let's not forget his allegations of SA and the fact that he openly admits that he wrote Jason as a self-insert for a 'bad guy seeking redemption') this was my first comic experience with Jason and to be honest, I can't bring myself to hate it. Sure there's some parts that literally show how much of a dumpster fire Lobdell's writing can become, but for the most part I genuinely liked the characterization of Jason that Lobdell gives. Jason may be a bit more reactionary and just kind of making shit up as he goes along, but he's far from dumb. The intro to the series has Jason sneaking into a terrorist run nuclear sub and killing everyone inside.

Again: Lobdell's writing is all of the place. But I do like that his take on Jason is a bit more subdued. I know in the New 52 they wanted to make Jason an Anti-Hero. Someone who very much still driven by emotion and revenge. But he's definetly more relaxed and even has a lot of fun. Intelligence wise he has is moments, but it does emphasize that while he may be the best read Robin, he does have a tendency to leap before he looks. Also all the art for RHATO with the exception of a few series were TOP TIER. I understand why they hired artists like Kenneth Rocafort and Dexter Soy to rehabilitate his image. I mean, come on.

Now if we're talking about Jason's intelligence, I'd be absolutely remiss if I didn't discuss Red Hood: Outlaw and the Price of Gotham Arc. Specifically this exchange between Bruce & Jason. To me, this is the single best part of Lobdell's run and shows Jason's true intelligence.

To give a rundown: After Bruce banished Jason from Gotham after seemingly killing the Penguin. Bruce proceeded to find Jason and literally beat him to within an inch of his life. It took MONTHS for Jason to recover. A lot happens but mostly Jason finds out (from Bruce no less) that Penguin is still alive. Jason hatches a devious plan. He takes over the iceberg lounge, kidnaps and holds Penguin hostage. Publically outs himself as Jason Todd, the dead ward of Bruce Wayne, as alive and well, and the new owner of the Iceberg Lounge.

When Bruce finds out he's clearly pissed and goes to confront Jason because he's banished him from Gotham. But because Jason outed himself as alive and one of Bruce's sons. Batman can do NOTHING. Jason has Bruce by the balls. If Bruce does anything to Jason while he's out and alive as Jason, all Jason has to do is tell the truth. And the whole Batman jig is up in an instant. And Bruce? After these panels? He runs off with his tail between his leg because he can't touch Jason. And all Jason did was capture penguin, and come out as alive. THIS is the Jason that I love. This is the Jason that strikes fear into people's hearts.

I think a lot of the general complaints we see about Jason as a whole is just how inconsistent he is with his writing. Which I agree. It's hard to characterize Jason well when there's been a character like Lobdell who was at the Helm of Jason's character for 10 years and then forced to leave. And I don't really know if DC has any really solid plans for his character and development. There's a lot of hype surrounding the end of Cheer and them saying it'll 'change Red Hood & Batman's relationship forever' as well as with Jason being featured in the new Suicide Squad coming this August, and Jason getting a feature in an issue of Robin. It'll be interesting to see where they take the character. Personally I do want a resumption of Jason. But like Harley Quinn where they're taking their sweet time redeeming her. Jason has done A LOT of awful things and of they wanna make him a hero, I want a few years to pass in terms of monthly issues before we see Jason become a hero again.

*edit: spelling*

[michibikionmain]

This isn’t THE tommyinnit villain essay but it sure is one of them

Ok ok so 4 those of u who aren't on discord with me: i have two main essays that have been in the works for MONTHS, these being my Complete Dream character analysis essay going in-depth for nearly all of his canon interactions and finding his character traits and motivations through the story, and my Tommyinnit (and Wilbur Soot) were Always The Villains on the server essay talking about how the only reason so many people view them as the good guys or heroes is because we see the story from their perspective mainly. This essay? Is not either of those. BUT, it does go through a lot of my thoughts on Tommy and Dream’s characters so I figured I’d post it. maybe itll help me organize my thoughts 4 my Mega Projects lol

@ranboocore bc u helped me pop off on this so hard LMAO

Warning, it’s VERY Tommy Critical, what a suprise. I do not like Tommy as a character lol. idk what triggers yall might need me to tag but if u need one in particular pls lmn!

My biggest issue with tommy's character is that he SAYS hes learned but he never does he is exactly the same person he was at the start of the server just More Sad and with Trauma, when out of all the characters he's had the most push to change. c!Tommy is a very tell-don't-show character which can make it hard for some people to connect to him, especially those who don’t directly share his trauma or see themselves in his character. Of course, there is still a MASSIVE amount of people who relate to his struggles and thus love him regardless of his writing, but those who can't relate to him will always feel some kind of barrier until the things they've talked about are actually shown to the viewer instead of being spoon-fed to them.

It is a very beginner writing thing, and I'm hoping that Tommy is figuring out how to fix this, maybe with support from the many other writers on the server. There's the 3 you mentioned, plus fundy, niki, and maybe tubbo who also play dnd, plus Dream who said he would've been an English major and does a lot of personal writing for fun.  I think the biggest issue in the writing lies in the individual ccs being inexperienced in the medium, particularly with planning out their own character growth. 

Another glaring issue I have with c!Tommy is how he's framed to be sympathetic and he goes through all these horrible things without acknowledging his role in any of them. The things that have happened to him are a direct result of his actions, but the thing is HE won't acknowledge and so it falls flat. This isn’t to say that being abused is his fault, because it’s NEVER the vicitm’s fault, but being exiled? His multiple fights with c!Dream? His friendships falling apart? Losing the disks in the first place? They’re the direct consequences of HIS OWN actions, but he never acknowledges this and constantly just... brushes off any accountability by either saying that it’s Dream fault or simply SAYING he feels bad without properly showing it through redemption and GROWTH.

Denial is useful in storytelling sometimes, but Tommy's character has been in denial since the very beginning of the server and at this point it's just exhausting. He only ever switches between denial and depression, not really going through all 5 stages of grief properly. His violent/upset reactions would be more powerful if they were any different from how tommy usually acts, but this is always how he is. When he “lashes out” because he’s reached the end of his patience, it doesn’t SEEM like the snap it is because that’s just... it’s seriously just his standard reaction to everything. It hold no WEIGHT to see c!Tommy yell at someone violently or threaten to fight them because he does that anyways!

Static characters can be a good thing, and can be interesting if done correctly, but not every character SHOULD or CAN be static in a story.

Static characters need to have their position or behavior challenged and question, where they look into if the way they see and interact with the world is really the 'correct' one or just evaluated to see if they truly believe in them. This questioning period is CRUCIAL! and NEEDS to be well done in a way that ACTIVELY SHOWS the conflict between the two ideals. If they decide to hold onto their beliefs/continue their behavior then, it feels deserved, because rather than just being a flat "they do thing its who they are" they have defined WHY. WHY is a very important question to think of when telling the difference between dynamic and static characters. The why of a character is ESSENTIAL to developing them as a relatable, sympathetic person rather than a flat story telling device. It makes them a human rather than a puppet. When a character's motives aren't well defined or discussed, they're doomed to fall flat in everything else, because the WHY is the foundation of what makes them who they are.

c!Tommy has an underdeveloped "why", his motivations are weak, rarely properly discussed and when they are it doesn't particularly stick with him. His motivations change without showing us the internal struggle that should come from literally shifting your driving principles. There are some good MOMENTS of him reevaluating the importance of certain things, but they're so spread out and contradictory and immediately spat one that they're hard to piece together. He TELLS us what his motivations are as well, which is another big flaw when it comes to all that but we don't have time to unpack all THAT Anyways, the key to static story telling is reaffirmation. The character goes through a complete journey and ends with the same beliefs because they've looked into why they have them and determined that they still matter to them. A great example of static writing in my eyes is c!Techno, who since the beginning has believed that governments are bad. c!Techno enters the server to destroy a government, and still ends up doing that because he sees and we see him experience that the reasons he didn't like government before still hold true and he has no reason to support them any more than before, and so his anarchist beliefs are REAFFIRMED, proving to him that they way he handles things is the right one for him.

c!Tommy’s attachments are all just... they're all so weird.  like he LITERALLY SACRIFICES HIS LIFE MULTIPLE TIMES for L'manburg. By action of sacrifice it seems like it should be the most important thing to him, but then he throws it away for some disks that mattered less to him just a minute ago.  But then it's all about how c!Tubbo is worth more than Anything and maybe he's found something more important! but then he shoves THAT out the window for the discs again ig!!! but then it's about l’manburg again? Make it make sense.... pls....

Here's smth that really irks me about Tommy's character, and is kind of weird but give me a second to explain: Tommy has never actually permanently lost much of anything on the server. Every punishment he's ever received he's tried to find some way around. And like... I'm not expecting him to be HAPPY to face the consequences of his actions but seeing him constantly have his cake and eat it too is very irritating, especially when there are characters who DO have to deal with actual permanent sacrifices. The whole thing with the disks. where he WILLINGLY OFFERED THEM UP AND GAVE THEM AWAY THEN SPENT FOREVER TRYING TO STEAL THEM BACK WHILE CLAIMING DREAM STOLE THEM FROM HIM, is the biggest example of this, but it's generally his characters way of dealing with things. He's very backhanded and conniving, constantly calling himself "big man" except for when he wants things from people and he plays up the "iM a MiNoR" card to try and get them to give him things or feel bad. He's not just some sweet innocent kid like people paint him, he knows damn well he's messed up and while he SAYS he feels bad about it, he has never once really shown, with his ACTIONS, regret for what he's done except for the stuff with c!Sapnap, which could it could be argued he did because he thought it would help get c!Sapnap on his side to fight Dream and he knew c!Sapnap was a skilled warrior and could possibly be persuaded to fight with dream.

c!Tommy is in NO way some sweet innocent child, he knows what he's doing. He KNEW l'manburg was a drug empire, and wanted to turn his hotel into the same He was FULLY prepared to just murder c!Schlatt for legally winning an election that he KNEW was rigged AND INTENDED TO HELP RIG HE LITERALLY TEAMED UP WITH c!TECHNOBLADE KNOWING THAT HE INTENDED TO BLOW UP L'MANBURG AND ONLY LEFT WHEN HE REALIZED IT WASN'T GOING TO ACTUALLY HELP HIM--

The line of c!Wilbur saying "Tommy, are we the bad guys?" wasn't him mentally going batshit it was him realizing that the entire time they've been doing terrible things. c!Wilbur was literally ALWAYS Vilbur but the time people CALL Vilbur is when c!Will himself realized he was a villain.