#or not thinking a God(s)/Starclan exists

[afalconfromalcyoneus]

Just a reminder for the official writing team and fandom

[mothdapple]

StarClan and Midnight Lore

I've been mulling over the worldbuilding I've done with how Midnight and StarClan function in Shaken Roots (my TNP rewrite! You can read it here if interested, but this post will be understandable even if you haven't read Shaken Roots.) I wanted to get my thoughts down in writing, but sadly most of this lore goes way above the characters' heads in-story. That means it'll never actually be fully brought up in Shaken Roots, but that doesn't mean I can't share with you all!

Midnight

Starting off with Midnight— Midnight is a (very) minor god, and basically the closest thing the Clans have to a deity. She's been around since at least the beginning of the cat species. She can take any form she'd like, but chooses to look like a badger because she is simply fond of both cats and badgers (she isn't powerful enough to be the god solely responsible for the creation of either species, but I imagine she had some role in their inception.)

The Ancients/Tribe/Clans are Midnight's pet projects. She is the reason that the Tribe of Endless Hunting/StarClan exist at all (other cat spirits exist in other afterlives, but those spirits are not as densely populated or as powerful.) Midnight is also the source of the Tribe of Endless Hunting/StarClan's omens and prophecies. As a god, Midnight lives outside of our mortal timeline, existing in the past, present, and future(s) all at once. In Shaken Roots, she calls herself a "Watcher" as a easy way of explaining to the cats how she sees everything (and because fully describing her powers and existence would break their poor, little, kitty-minds.)

Midnight's predictions of the future are not always perfect, though. Creatures have free will, so she sees every possible future that may come to pass depending on the livings' actions. Sometimes certain possibilities are way more likely than others, sometimes things are already in motion so the outcome is completely fixed, while other times it may be totally up in the air. Regardless though, because she sees the future, Midnight is able to share prophecies/omens to warn about things that are fated to (maybe) happen.

The way it works in the present Tribe and Clans is that Midnight (usually) sends a prophecy to the Tribe of Endless Hunting/StarClan to receive, and then leaves it up to the cats' ancestors to decide when/how they deliver the prophecy (through a dream or a sign) and how much they tell the living cats. This means that StarClan, more often than they'd like to admit, receive prophecies which they themselves do not fully understand.

This all started a long time ago, when Midnight took an interest in the Ancient cats that lived around the lake and became invested in their survival. To help them out, she began sending omens directly to some cats (Rock was her first oracle,) but as these cats she liked started inevitably dying, Midnight decided to gather their spirits together so they may watch over their descendants, forming "proto-StarClan." At this point too, Midnight decided to shift from sending omens directly to living cats like Rock, to sending the prophecies to the ancestor/spirits for them to pass on to the living. (I think Midnight beaming her godly power directly into a living cat's brain probably had some unintended consequences. It likely resulted in Rock turning out to be more powerful than Midnight intended. Sol perhaps was another failed experiment of Midnight's in that regard— another oracle that she tried communicating with directly but turned him into something too strong and unpredictable.)

In general, Midnight typically doesn’t like to intervene too much directly. She sticks to more vague prophecies and omens, and prefers to just observe the Clans and Tribe as they go about their lives. But she is willing to step in to help if the Clans or Tribe face an existential threat, which she does in TNP when she calls the Clan representatives to warn them about the forest destruction, and when she sends that same group of cats to the Tribe, knowing that they might be key in saving them from Sharptooth.

StarClan

(I'm just going to write "StarClan" here, but this all applies to The Tribe of Endless Hunting too.)

As I mentioned above, StarClan is not always the source of the Clan’s prophecies— they are often just a middle-man. This is the case for prophecies like the destruction of the forest, the "silver cat" prophecy for the Tribe, the “three, kin of your kin” prophecy, and several others. But that doesn’t mean that StarClan can’t come up with and share their own prophecies when they want to. They are not omnipresent, but they are able to see more widely what is going on in the Clans than a living cat, and so are able to give living cats heads up about things they wouldn’t have otherwise known about.

This means StarClan can warn about things that are presently happening or things they fear might happen. But when they are warning things that may happen, StarClan is just making an informed prediction about something they think might come true, like a living cat would— only Midnight can actually see the future paths.

StarClan’s overall power and their ability to see into the living world is also a lot more limited than Midnight's. Although Midnight is the source of many of StarClan's prophecies, StarClan's power to influence the living world (send dreams to living cats, influence the natural world to create signs, and in rare cases, appear as a ghost,) depend on two main things: 1) The proximity to a physical "portal" that links the living world and the afterlife (the Moonstone/pool, Cave of Pointed Stones, Whispering Cave, etc.) And 2) the belief/faith of the living cats in their ancestors.

The portal part not only acts as a powerful conduit for easy communication between living cats and StarClan, but it also acts as an anchor/tether for StarClan to the living world. There is a range of space around this anchor point that StarClan can see/influence, but outside of that area, StarClan is blind. When the six prophecy cats left on their journey to the sundrown-place, they actually left StarClan's sphere of influence. The salt-water signs they received throughout that journey (and mistakenly attributed to StarClan) were actually sent to them directly from Midnight. StarClan also can't see into places like the mountains, since that sphere of influence is already occupied by the Tribe of Endless Hunting.

Although it is not as strong of a source of power as the portals, when the Clan cats reside in a territory, they also imbue it with power for StarClan. Thus StarClan's influence was also weakened when the forest was being destroyed by twolegs in TNP. But, because the Moonstone was still intact at that time, they were still able to make contact with the cats who used it as the Clans were starting their Great Journey. But StarClan was too weak to send any dreams/signs/etc. outside of when the cats used the Moonstone. (And so the "dying warrior"/falling star sign was another one that Midnight was forced to send directly, not using StarClan as a middle-man.)

Finally, to expand on the other major source of StarClan's power: their descendants' belief in them. This is actually the biggest limit (or boost) to StarClan's ability to influence the living world. In a scenario where the Clans had no knowledge/belief in StarClan, but still lived next to the Moonstone/pool, StarClan would still exist but be a silent observer. Because the Clans would be close to a portal, StarClan would still be able to see the living world, but be unable to influence it (no dreams/omens/etc.) The only case where StarClan would be able to contact a living cat in this scenario would be if a cat somehow stumbled across the Moonstone/pool, and fell asleep next to it, and had an open mind about their ancestors existing.

StarClan understands this caveat to their power, and so this fear of losing their power is part of the reason why StarClan frequently demands such faith/loyalty from the Clans. If even a single, individual cat loses belief in StarClan (like Mothwing) StarClan will completely lose connection to that cat, and therefore lose any power to influence them.

StarClan's and Midnight's dynamic

Even though StarClan regularly receives prophecies from Midnight, prior to the journey to the sundrown-place, the vast majority of StarClan did not even know Midnight existed. Not even the Clan founders were old enough to know about her. Some spirits of the Ancients were likely the only cats who remembered Midnight. StarClan obviously knew that they got prophecies from... somewhere, but no one really thought about the source much. It did not bother them at the time to not know the source, or know what the prophecies meant— they simply accepted that is was how things worked.

And, as I mentioned earlier, Midnight is extremely reclusive and doesn't like to directly interfere (and she definitely doesn't want to be pestered about interfering more) so she was fine being unknown. She only stepped forward in TNP because of the existential threat that would have otherwise wiped out the Clans without her action.

I think the revelation of Midnight's existence would have been very shocking and divisive to a lot of StarClan. Several spirits probably felt like taking prophecies/knowledge from a badger (ignoring the fact that Midnight is not actually a badger) was just asking for trouble. There was probably a big push by this group to completely ignore, or at least, distrust those prophecies, and only send StarClan-sourced prophecies to the living. This was definitely also not helped by the fact that not long after learning about Midnight, StarClan then received the "there will be three, kin of your kin, who hold the power of the stars in their paws" prophecy. Like— Midnight's existence was disturbing enough, but now she's also saying that there are three living cats, each more powerful than StarClan?! StarClan definitely hated that.

[smewduck]

Yah, that was about night, sorry about how esoteric I decided to be, but I saw your posts about her and I just got to thinking about the... logistical problems with trying to fight a bunch of dead people, let alone the fact it's a religion.

HI. HIII. THANK YOU. I TOOK THIS AND I RAN. I warned about me spewing a really lengthy response and I did oops

(so StarClan isn't really a religious aspect of the colonies at all. in-universe this is because when Alpine was founded, it was made out of cats who either already had established religious beliefs (gods, basically, it’s not very fleshed out because it’s not important), or weren't religious at all (for example, Night). Personally, I just don't find interest in exploring religion lmao. A lot of wc oc stories have already done it, and probably done it better than I ever could.)

So, StarClan's very much a more government-ish figure for the colonies BUT YEAH obviously there’s gonna be weird stuff going on with it even if it’s not a religion, they’re dead cats in an afterlife lol.

Silverpelt refers to the afterlife here basically, and StarClan/dark forest are only one part of silverpelt. It’s only specific to the colonies. Also present everywhere in the Clans’ territories is silverstone - a green coloured mineral that is believed to give the Clans a greater connection to silverpelt, and subsequently StarClan

I love the eldritch takes on StarClan, but in my story that stuff’s more rooted in silverstone. StarClan is just a bunch of normal dudes lmao

StarClan might have power in influence, but in terms of physical, real, tangible power they can’t do much. They have no control over silverpelt, no control even over the dark forest, and the only control they have, really, is of the colonies through the codes and stuff

In terms of experience, Night's as old as the oldest StarClan cat, as established above, so she's at the very least equal in combat and strategic experience to Ashcloud, who I would say is in charge of the cat equivalent of '''''military''''' activities in StarClan (not much, they don't have a need to fight).

I can make the argument that she has more experience, considering she was the second-highest-ranking authoritative figure in Alpine's early civil war, and the clans haven't had anything close to that extent of fighting since. Their modern training probably isn't cutting it anymore.

(Like, if most of StarClan is a) made of cats who haven't ever experienced active conflict, and b) commanded by cats who think the dark forest will never be a problem, how would they really fare against a dark forest army that Night's essentially been training for war for literally over 400 years, when the barrier between them and the dark forest inevitably fails? Spoiler™: they don't fare well lol)

The key is that StarClan's arrogant. They don't think the dark forest will ever be a real problem for them, so they don't prepare for it or try to prevent it. Of course Night's going to win (initially)

Night later 'loses everything' as Silver implies, it’s not because StarClan had all the time in the world and had more experience than her. It is technically because of StarClan returning, but it's tied much closer with Rainpaw's involvement (not relevant rn) and a rooting in Night's internal struggles at this point (becoming what you hate). 

a lot of Night's character after she destroys starclan (into part 3 of SL)  is very much involved with like. a character caught between what's defined her existence for a long time to the point she cant remember who she was before, and the certainty that she can’t get back to that person even though she needs to, and she needs to because becoming something equal to or worse than her enemy is an unbearable thought..? if that makes sense

It's complicated, but this essentially culminates in a fall out between her and Finch. Then enter: the destructive cycle metaphors that this whole story is built on.

StarClan ‘working so great as an enemy because fighting them is something that is only ever going to hurt you more than them' is SO TRUE AND YOU WORDED IT BEAUTIFULLY.

exactly what happens with Night. After everything, they didn't really change, while she lost a lot. But it’s one of those situations where it can’t have gone any other way. She can't get what she had back until starclan's defeated, but defeating starclan renders it impossible for her to get. Either way she loses. 

Your point about StarClan being eternal and therefore the colonies being eternal also is also very true and very fun.

I might even say, in this instance, that StarClan and the colonies are eternal through silverstone, and by extension so is their destruction.. :]

Sorry for word vomiting so many words in a tumblr post. I doubt anyone will read this all but. I had fun.

[bonefall]

How would Dark Forest cats like Tiger(claw)star or Darkstripe or Thistleclaw react to cats like Morningstar or Cloudberry and Ryewhisker? They’re all in the Dark Forest together so it makes sense they should at least know of each other’s existence. How does the evil DF characters react? Do they have positive or negative opinions of the “innocent” DF cats? What are their interactions like? Have they tried to attack each other? What are the evil DF cat’s opinions on the cats who left StarClan as a way of protest?

Also, can cats in the Dark Forest attack / kill each other? This is an addition relating to the question above.

And lastly, is there any difference in Mapleshade for the Bonefall Rewrite? I know about the Call Mapleshade AU but does anything change with her in the Bonefall Rewrite?

Mechanics of the Dark Forest

I mention the mechanics briefly in the StarClan Morality overhaul, but I'll clarify!

Q: Can Dark Forest cats attack each other?

A: Hurt? Yes! Kill? No. A Dark Forest warrior who gets mortally wounded by another spirit simply poofs back into existence the next 'day.' This is usually how they teach the living how to do killing moves.

(little known fact: DF warriors killing each other was a retcon, Snowtuft is horrifically flayed on-screen in early OotS and I refuse to believe he just walked away all hunky-dory.)

The exception to this is going to be during the Great Battle, which I'm going to make the night of the True Eclipse. For one night only, the Dark Forest warriors are as solid as real flesh and bone and can kill and be killed freely. Sol's eclipse in Po3 was just a god-induced preview of what was to come.

Q: How do they meet each other?

You don't run into any cats you're avoiding, and you will not find anyone who does not want to be found. It's Just Magic.

So, despite the fact that Mapleshade is hunting down the cats she 'dragged down with her,' they don't have to deal with her outside of hearing her yowling now and then, or the horror of hearing pounding pawsteps only to turn around and see no one is there.

This question is super dependent on the cat in question. Ryewhisker, Cloudberry, and Morningstar are very friendly and happily greet the unreasonably damned when they're lonely. Darkstripe is horribly lonely but people tend to avoid him after one meeting. You'd think Ripplestar would get along with Thistleclaw, but he actually ripped him to pieces this one time so they don't talk anymore.

So on that note,

Q: What's the general opinions of the cats on each other?

Morningstar is surprisingly disliked at first, just because most cats tend to get sent to the Dark Forest for being dishonorably violent. A "cowardly pacifist" who's just a normal warrior usually gets into StarClan, Morningstar's in a very unique position. The cats who get to know him usually end up changing their minds, like Ravenwing and Appledusk. Cloudberry and Ryewhisker, obviously, have always liked him.

Cloudberry and Ryewhisker are a lovable old couple. Tigerstar and his ilk hate them, but they're so widely beloved by the other denizens that Tiger would never do anything to hurt them. There's no point and he'd just end up alienating a ton of his supporters.

Mudclaw is WIDELY respected. I think he actually kinda likes being there.

Generally, the innocent cats are taken as proof that StarClan's "not that great anyway, who even WANTS to be there anyway!!" Never underestimate the power of sour grapes... but there's exceptions of course. It depends a ton on interpersonal feelings.

Bonefall Mapleshade

Because I stay close to canon for the rewrite, Bonefall Mapleshade is completely separate from Better Call Mapleshade. I like to imagine the difference is heavily based on her environment though (she isn't a fundamentally 'good person' in either incarnation), so if things had been different, she could have become BCMapleshade.

But, she was condemned to the Dark Forest, along with Frecklewish, Appledusk, and Ravenwing. She played up the crowd for sympathy, and StarClan did give her the chance to say goodbye to her beloved kittens, but she charged into the Dark Forest to hunt down her victims forever more... and she did it happily.

She lied to StarClan, too. She said she would be satisfied hunting down the cats who wronged her kittens forevermore, but she's not. She wants MORE revenge, thinks it's not fair that Appledusk's descendants are still in RiverClan, and so haunts them

She's definitely one of the strongest Dark Forest cats, exactly because StarClan sent her off with blessing. She uses this extra power maliciously, making false signs, pushing Stormkit off a rock, starting illnesses, she's a malignant entity.

The biggest change I'm intentionally making here is giving Mapleshade special power on purpose, and making it so Dark Forest warriors can do real, tangible damage to the living through magical means

[stagwhisker]

Actually off the top of my head here’s some small stuff I’d keep or change in no paticular order. Most of it is first arc since I recently reread that and its fresh in my mind.

Graystripe stays in Riverclan until PoT. He’d return to Thunderclan when he returns to the Lake Territory due to both of his kits no longer residing in Riverclan. Also just make him a better father in general as well as have his loyalties run around his family. I also wanthim to be a positive force in Briarlight’s life later. I do want to keep Millie behaving the way she does but have it clear that you know that isn’t a good way to react and have her develop past it.

Also the Spottedleaf romance plot simply won’t exist I have had it nope not doing it again. In fact I have a better role in mind for her in TNP anyway so I may have someone else take her place though I don’t think there IS anyone to hmm. I just know I want to change Spottedleaf REALLY badly.

I think I’d still “canonize” Longtail being Robinwing’s son with Frostfur and Brindleface as his older sisters. PERHAPS have Cherrypaw and Chestnutkit come from the same litter as him. Ravenpaw would also still be Robinwing’s son.

Speaking of Brindleface, I know for a fact I don’t want her to be Sandstorm’s mother. I want to try to limit relationships that are incestuous which honestly is a tall order but god Ashfur and Squirrelflight is bad enough as is they don’t need to be related. On that note, Runningwind would be her father instead of Redtail. I don’t know who her mother would be and honestly it doesn’t matter I don’t think she ever appears as a kit in the series.

I’m so torn on Cinderpelt because on one hand I let her become a Warrior because she is completely capable of doing so but then I’d have to pick a new med cat and I can’t think of anybody off the top of my head around the time Yellowfang dies who could take her place. Maybe Cinderpelt takes it temporarily before returning to her Warrior duties but that doesn’t feel correct either idk I know I want to change something about it.

I’d like the Warrior Code to begin being challenged in the first arc starting with A Dangerous Path. I want it to lead to the events of The Broken Code to be a massive world changing culmination of every flaw present in the code as well as the resolution to the years of questioning. I would also change Dawn of the Clans to come out AFTER AVoS so we can see the formation of the code and it’s deconstruction back to back.

I want to make Leopardstar and Blackstar's motivations surrounding Tigerstar more clear to the reader. Everything we hear is ideas from Firestar which normally is fine but the way these characters are forgiven so easily when all we see is compliance from them it's.... strange. I'm not going to make them any more sympathetic/unsympathetic but I want the reader to have a better understanding of these two leaders. Furthermore I want there to be resistance from their own cats and cats from other clans because of their past allegiance to Tigerstar (and Brokenstar for Blackstar).

Piggybacking off the previous point I want the rancid undertones of the way these cats view each other and outsiders to continue through all the arcs. The first arc feels so separated from everythibg else and Tigerstar's reign is treated a s afreak eventeven though he was just taking advantage of the mindset of clan cats that have existed for decades and continues to exist long after his death. There will be cats who pin the blame solely on Tigerstar while others can see Tigerstar was a PART of the problems that continue to exist. Maybe have that cause conflict between these two groups over the years.

I have no idea how to word this but I want Cloudtail's aetheism to challenge the idea that cats NEED beleif in Starclan to have morals like the books imply later in the series. And I want that to be expanded upon by Mothwing who beleives in an existance of Starclan but doesn't beleive they hold power over the lives of cats and could be untrustworthy. Just the idea that faith does not equate to morality or blind faith can be a detriment to those looking to abuse that power.

Making a more religiously complex series overall. I want the Tribe, The Guardians, and The Sisters to be treated with FAR more dignity and respect by the Clans and the Narrative. I want to have the clans reconized as flawed by the narrative and not as the "Correct" way to live in the series.

Uhh I want more buildup to Bloodclan. I want Bloodclan's existance to be known before The Darkest Hour and have there be foreshadowing to the pain train of death that Scourge would turn out to be. First mention would most likey come from Barley.

That's what I have off the top of my head I have more in mind but I have been fighting with this for 2 hours I need a break if yall want me to elaborate further (to the best of my ability) on anything specific then yall can shoot me an ask but for now that's all

[dovewingz]

good question!!!! i dont know

ok im kidding... sort of. 

at that point, the dark forest would’ve created 2-3 fake signs already that were “interpreted” by mothwing and that would’ve directly caused Something Bad to happen to the clans (nothing major, mothwing would not let the clan(s) be in any real danger, but enough to get some cats wondering why starclan keeps hurting them). 

during part of power of three + especially omen of the stars, cloudtail (and mothwing, sometimes) would’ve been kinda insulting/complaining about things in relation to starclan (more than usual). just questioning little things in the system. getting cats uneasy, getting them to question the system as well. (this idea was NOT tigerstar’s. he was def like “we should kill someone and then blame it on starclan!” and every1 else was like “no u idiot” and someone like mapleshade suggested the starting with small things idea)

ANYWAYS blah blah blah. the dark forest attacks starclan in starclan territory

there are lots of little things that affect starclan negatively in the battle... 

> living cats who just. couldn’t fuckin get to starclan cause they couldn’t fall asleep lol f

> mothwing and cloudtail’s supporters, who think that, yeah! the system does suck wtf starclan!

> those who were persuaded by the fake signs too

> trainees on dark forest’s side (which. remain the same... redwillow, breezepelt and possibly antpelt) 

> the starclan rebels and their whole existence obv lol 

alsooo some stuff that happens during the battle

> cats seeing kits in the dark forest and not wanting to fight them bc either a) they are still kits or b) they recognise them (like snowkit/tuft and mosskit/heart, for example)

> certain dark forest warriors refusing to attack living cats and only attacking starclan, which is Confusing to many

> mothwing and cloudtail straight up being like “they are DUMB DEAD CATS why are we fighting for them”

WOO OKAY SOO

as the battle goes on, more n more cats stop fighting or switch sides. 

just like in canon, ivypool faces hawkfrost, but he refuses to attack her. she’s a living cat, shes not the enemy. then, hollyleaf attacks him but this time its out of Genuine Fury rather than her protecting ivy. theres one of those overdramatic “kill me i dare u” scenes. hawk is probably just like tells her that even if she kills him she’ll still go to starclan after all ASHFUR is in starclan.

and bam boom chaos descends bc obviously, hollyleaf doesn’t think that ashfur deserves to be in starclan (shes right but whatever anyways). hollyleaf says he’s bullshitting but he swears he isn’t. hollyleaf and ivypool begin to doubt the system too now. 

i.... don’t know what happens after this. HOWEVER i do know it would be Very Cool if firestar himself switches sides and he and tigerstar fight side by side, not enemies for once, and defeat starclan. but. im not sure how possible that idea is

cool cool cool so this story has a Happy Ending. starclan is defeated!!!!!! oh heck yes. they find the root of the problem and i’d like to say the og leaders are like gods or something and theyve been twisting this Evil plan from the beginning cause thats funkyyy but who knows what i’ll do? i dont 

oh also. one last THING. since i headcanon that both the dark forest and starclan keep their wounds once they die (in different ways, tho, df is more gruesome), after stc is defeated, the dark forest cats’ wounds fade. like completely. theyre not longer the “”evil”” enemies of starclan, and theyre not... well, starclan cats, either. they become something else, something better, something good. so they dont have post-dead wounds anymore

that was a mess. 

one day i will return with a better plot and more thought out ideas, i swear.

[afalconfromalcyoneus]

This post is using the version of Mothwing that was around before OOTS last book. Also that's not what Agnostic means either. Agnostic means you think you can't know if God(s) exist exist or that are unsure if God(s) exists. I'm pretty sure Mothwing (pre Last book of OOTS) was pretty firm on not believing Starclan existed.

I probably should've used Cloudtail instead for the example bc I remember vividly that he wholeheartedly did not think Starclan existed in the first 4 arcs. But I wanted to show off my Mothwing design -3-.

Now, I'm not exactly sure what Mothwing would be. She believes in Starclan, of course, however she doesn't trust them. She doesn't trust in the Dark Forest either of course. She'd probably be a Misotheist, but her "hate" is more a dislike/distrust. You know what. I'm creating a new word. Distheos, dislike/distrust of God(s) / Starclan in this case. Boom.

Okay sorry for replying w/ something super long.

Just a reminder for the official writing team and fandom

[afalconfromalcyoneus]

I think my general issue is how a common misconception of Atheism (not believe/not thinking a God(s) exist) is just about hating God or something. In this case it would be hating Starclan.

I'm twisting some of the words since Starclan is just an afterlife and there's no God(s) though. I don't really like when ppl call Splashtail an Atheist in particular bc he's very much not. He believes in Starclan he just doesn't respect them. Misotheism I would say isn't the same thing, though sometimes an Atheist can be a Misotheist too, since it kinda implies you believe that the God is real in the first place.

Just a reminder for the official writing team and fandom