#or like dc may fuck up characterization in a way I don’t like so I go to fanfic to supply the more “canon version

[beepboopimaproblemchild]

One thing that’s so interesting to me when I approach the batfam fandom stuff is the discourse between canon and fanon. There are those who ignore canon completely and push the characters into what the fans have evolved them into through certain roles and angst opportunity. And then there are the people who are staunchly against fanon and only portray the character as they would in canon. And honestly, both sides have rights here, you can be rigid with canon characterization and be right but I also believe that people creating their own versions of the characters by building on the comics is interesting as well. Both sides can take it too far, and both sides can be wrong as well. Everything is just on such an interesting spectrum in terms of characterization.

Like yeah sometimes I’ll read a fic where fanon dick is acting like a goody toe shoes big brother/parent and I’ll be like “he’s not really like that” but still enjoy the story.

I can also enjoy the ultra canon dramatics of mean bat fam and watch dick be a complete asshole while also being a good brother.

So, personally, interpretation is something that I enjoy, but acknowledging that it IS an interpretation and is not 100% accurate is still very important to me.

[nghtwngs]

hi !! so I’m pretty new to the dc fandom and the batfamily stuff in general but lately I’ve been getting into that story line and nightwing is EXTREMELY FINE but I heard that he cheated on starfire but at the same time I’ve heard that it wasn’t canon?? I’m just really confused, could you explain what’s up with that 😭

hii omg welcome!! i hope you’ve been enjoying your time with us hehe

alright so, admittedly, i haven’t read most of nightwing’s solo runs yet, but to my knowledge, this has been retconned (if you don’t know what that means, basically it’s no longer in canon; sometimes, writers fuck up or write shitty storylines [ex: dick cheating on starfire] and have to rework/change things)

personally i think it was a horrible mischaracterization of dick grayson and my nightwing would never do that <3 comic writers are notoriously horrible at consistent characterization, so we often just pretend like things never happened. (like bruce/babs) imo i think the writer was trying to create more emotional drama by having this whole love triangle between dick, kori, and barbara

i adore nightwing to bits. he may not be the perfect man everyone believes he is, but he’s so altruistic and so self sacrificing, he’d never hurt kori or barbara in that way

[pint4punt]

Does Rob Walton Have Buyers’ Remorse with the Broncos?

It’s a privilege owning an NFL Team. Such a privilege that only 32 of the most privileged mother fuckers on the planet get to call a franchise their own. Yet in the case of Rob Walton and the Walton-Penner Family Ownership Group, this purchase has aged about as poorly as an investment with Sam Bankman-Fried.

Between Sean Payton and Russell Wilson, this franchise has spent 3 First Round Picks, 3 Second Round Picks, and about a Quarter of a Million Dollars to build the worst team in the NFL. Having started 0-3, they are well on their way to their 8th consecutive season without a playoff appearance and Russ is under contract through 2029. Today we’ll take a look at all of the Broncos’ most recent woes (which is becoming a bit of a tradition on our page, see the links below for our previous Broncos’ takes laughing at their misfortunes).

What better place to start delving through the Broncos’ misery than:

Losing in Historic Fashion by Allowing the Most Points in a Game in 57 Years

To say the Broncos are off to a rough start would be the understatement of the century. Two seasons in a row, this team has come into the year with hopes of an offensive revelation to complement their (once) stout Defense. Last year it was in the form of former Super Bowl Champion Russell Wilson, this year in the form of former Super Bowl Champion Sean Payton. On paper that sounds like a combination that could set the league on fire. So what has that looked like so far?

In Week 1 they held the Jimmy G led Raiders to 17 points and lost a close one. Ok, a tight division game, nothing to panic about. Then in Week 2, they gave up 35 points after jumping out to a commanding (😉) 21-3 lead and lost a shootout to the Commanders’ team that Buffalo basically shut out last weekend. Well that’s a little concerning, but hey it’s still early. And then in Week 3, a little trip to Florida ended as most trips to Florida do: in complete disaster with everyone involved questioning all of their life choices.

To say the Dolphins blew out the Broncos hardly seems a fitting characterization of that ill-fated Week 3 Contest. It was more than Miami simply dominating Denver, they flat out gave them the Danny Masterson treatment. 10 Total Touchdowns, 726 total yards of Offense, and the only reason this wasn’t the worst loss of all time is because Mike McDaniel showed Sean Payton mercy…..eventually. We would be remiss if we didn’t also credit Vance Joseph for this defensive performance who rejoined the team as their DC after years of disappointing Broncos’ fans as a Head Coach! This humiliating loss of course led to

Payton Getting Chippy with Reporters

Maybe we’re wrong, but Sean Payton didn’t seem overly enthusiastic at his most recent post game presser. In fact, one might go so far as to say he didn’t want anything to do with the media in that moment. That may just be us speculating, but Payton was quick to cut off a reporter who simply wanted to highlight the significance of this historic occasion.

Which seems odd, given how chatty Payton was in his offseason interview with USA Today in which he called Hackett’s stint as Denver’s Head Coach last year “one of the worst coaching jobs in the history of the NFL.” Not sure where this campaign ranks in comparison to that, but if a genius like Payton just lost by 50, just imagine how bad things must have been under Hackett. Luckily, you can always rely on the fans for a calm, level-headed, rational perspective in these situations. So let’s take a look at social media to see what poignant feedback we can find from Broncos’ Country.

The Fans’ Takes

“FIRE VANCE JOSEPH” -@basically70%ofthecomments

“Who was like ‘hey Vance Joseph sounds like a good idea again!’ “ -@xbrichx

“Well done today guys! Now I get bullied by my friends for the rest of the season because of how bad you guys are again!!!” -@cmhoward23

“Fire this entire team” -@broncosfan_68

“Vance Joseph has literally destroyed our top 5 defense in 3 weeks” -@sean_showard

“what the fuck kind of “locking in” 70 BALLED BY MIAMI….” -@hunteradams8048

“Get off social media until you can prove to your fans that you can actually win a game. Traded our future to win now, the one season you will finish last, and not have a draft pick” -@pittdaddy_11

“Y’all too embarrassed to post the FINAL this time? Good…cause y’all are EMBARRASSING 🙄 Throw the whole team away and start over at this point 😂” -@ashgonzalez25

“Sean Payton is Urban Meyer 2.0” -@jesuslovesyou316

Ok well, that just didn’t go well at all. Let’s look to a former Pro Bowler, current Florida State Coach, and father of one of Denver’s star players for a more reasonable take on the situation:

“Toiling in the soil!!! SMH 2 you deserve better” -Patrick Surtain Sr.

Yikes this is going South fast. And to make matters worse this horrendous start is leading to:

Fire Sale Rumors

The one thing that can turn around a struggling program is buy in from the players and belief in the system. Well the Broncos’ Defense visibly quit on the field last Sunday and teams that start 0-3 have about a 2.5% chance of making the playoffs.

Sprinkle in comments like the one from Patrick Surtain Sr., growing discontent from the fans, & a division ran by the dynastic Chiefs and it’s easy to see why a team going nowhere fast might want to recoup some of that wasted draft capital to try to be competitive by 2030. The Waltons surely had higher expectations when they agreed to purchase the team. They expected to be competing in the Super Bowl and instead they are now competing in:

The Caleb Williams’ Bowl

That’s right, while the Broncos are off to a historically bad start, they aren’t the only team vying for the first overall pick in the 2024 draft. Much like the Broncos, the Chicago Bears came into the season full of optimism that their Quarterback and their Offense would take a significant step forward. Also like the Broncos, that delusional drug-induced pipe dream never came to fruition.

Many thought Justin Fields would follow in the footsteps of Jalen Hurts, develop as a thrower with a true No.1 Receiver, and become an MVP Caliber player. Instead, Fields ranks 29th in Passing Yards, has thrown the 3rd most interceptions, and ranks 34th in QBR at 21.3.

Week 4 will be the ultimate test to see what wins out between the Broncos’ inept Defense and The Bears’ impotent Offense with a shot at a franchise altering Quarterback on the line (stop me if you’ve heard this one before). While we most certainly won’t be tuning in for that flaming shitbag of a game, you can bet that Rob Walton and his Ownership Group will be watching every snap just praying that Sean Payton fucks this one up too so they might be able to dangle a shiny USC Quarterback in front of season ticket holders and start recouping their investment in 2024.

[fancyfade]

Batgirl: Redemption re-write

Okay so. ideas for rewrite.

the cass/rose team up is ESSENTIAL. It cannot be forgotten. 

the bit that was weird/unsatisfying in the comic (Ok one of the many bits): why the fuck did Cain have this academy of already trained teenage girl assassins? How does this mesh with his previous characterization? He was a depressed old man who pinned all his hopes on Cass and lost her. he thought he actually loved her (even if he didn’t). He was just re-watching his tapes of training her. He wasn’t going to just have been making cass-replacements back before she ran away, and I don’t think he would’ve started after she ran away either I think he was too depressed.

the rivalry thing with slade and cain was also weird and pointless.

so Slade, who is a different variety of pathetic old man who has failed at everything important to him and now only has violence, is the one who proposes the idea to Cain, right before Infinite Crisis. He just lost Rose. he’s gonna be like “Okay we’ll make our own”. They can’t do anything as investive as what Cain did with Cass. it’s more trying to make it a streamlined manufacturing process. They kidnap some kids at 4/5 years old to fill in their academy. They may also have used some of the brainwashing stuff Slade used on Rose.

Meanwhile, one year later time skip: Cass has just come off some globe-trotting adventures investigating the League of Shadows (where she had her fanboy assassins she was trying to reform). Cain reaches out and contacts her. He wants to get Cass involved in the training of hte kids. He thinks she’ll understand his perspective this way. He cannot imagine that she won’t come around, because he can’t conceptualize Cass as actually a different person with different wants (remember in the comic he thinks that the only thing he did wrong was making her kill someone too young).

Rose, just having come off the Terror Titans plot with Time King, found out about the academies in a different way. Slade at some point had had business with Time Master (they both are invested in the same thing here, that is manipulating teenagers with powers) and used some of his resources. Rose winds up finding out about this when going under cover in Clock Master’s base.

A few ideas for Marque. Buddy I was bouncing ideas off with on discord suggested Marque as the cream of the crop, reminds David of Cass. I was debating having Marque be slightly older than the others, like “too old” for them to think the manipulation thing would work, like she mentioned in the comics she was older than the others when they started and thats why she remembered to hate Cain. Unsure what I’ll go with will have to think. Some type of Cass parallel is essential, though.

Rose’s trauma at the hands of Slade is a lot more recent and raw than Cass’s trauma at David’s hands (since I’m not doing the whole “cass is brainwashed” thing here). She wants to kill Slade, just like she did in Batgirl: redemption. Part of this is motivated by fear (like she mentions in Teen Titans). I don’t think I’ll actually have Rose kill Slade, though. I think enough of her family has died that she would back out of it, and it kind of ruins the theme of when she didn’t kill Bombshell in the first Teen Titans OYL arc (proving she was different than the Teen Titans expected). I also think she doesn’t want to ruin her relationship with Joey (who I am not having have gone evil or whatever AGAIN or whatever i heard happens in titans 2008)

Rose at this point in her canon is feeling independent, like “I do waht I want”. she is away from the teen titans, not teaming up with anyone.

Cass at this point in her canon is coming off of having been away for a year and working on defining herself away from Babs and Bruce, who’s expectations were crushing her.

Eventually, when Cass and Rose rescue the kids who David and Slade kidnapped, the kids stay in the school in Star City for helping out ex-child soldiers (which I guess is a niche DC needs) while Cass tries to find the kids parents.

Some plot also happens but the middle steps aren’t defined yet

[scandalsavagefanfic]

Hello! I am a huge fan of ur writing. I've loved everything I've read of yours. I've read alot of what you've posted, except for a couple of the tags that are squicky for me (so I'm very thankful you tag very thoroughly). No judgement for the squick, it's just not for me. & when I'm having a bad day, I usually just go thru ur ao3 and find something to reread. I think about Therapy's Bruce & Jason every damn day. While I obvs appreciate ur darker more "problematic" content (I really vibe with some of the themes you write about bc of my own trauma, & so it's very cathartic to read about in a fictional setting), I am truly a sucker for ur more happy content. The Happily Ever After verse also lives in my head rent free. Idk more wholesome stuff just seems more special when you write it. Anyways. I would die for you. But the point of this ask is cause I'm curious as to why you don't like Urban Legends? I'm sorry if you already talked about it here or on twitter and I missed it. I was just wondering because I really enjoy your take on things and would love to hear why you dislike it. I've been enjoying it so far personally, but I am always open to DC comics criticism.

Aw thank you so much! I'm so flattered by everything you just said. You're so sweet ❤❤❤❤❤

I haven't talked about Urban Legends here or twitter (I haven't been very active in either place lately. Just a lot going on and no energy 😔) but I'm happy to do it here.

Before I start though, I just want to add a standard disclaimer and make it clear that if you like it, there's nothing wrong with that and you don't have to let me ruin it for you lol. Like what you like.

That said, since you asked...

I said this when I was talking about it on discord, that there is a difference between hope and expectation. I always hope that a new story centered on Jason (or anyone really, but things have been especially egregious for Jay for 15 years) will be good or at least treat the character with a minimal level of respect (to be honest, the bar is super fucking low). But my expectations always temper my hope, to keep it from getting unrealistic. Because my expectations are based on experience.

The long history of Jason Todd, since even before his resurrection, has been one of retroactively trying to make him "a bad seed" in order to absolve Bruce of any responsibility in his death.

I don't even expect DC or their writers to start honoring the fact that Jason was not an angry, reckless Robin (and less of the later than Dick or Tim and definitely Damian). There plenty of ways that retcon can be folded into his history and be compelling and sympathetic. And if they're going to stick with that retcon, I'm only asking that they do it in one of those compelling and sympathetic ways because Jason was 15 when he died, heroically, in one of the most selfless acts in comics, to save a woman who literally handed him over to be brutally murdered. He was 12 when Bruce plucked him off the streets, he'd been homeless and fending for himself for at least two years. I personally think that Jason's story hits harder for him and Bruce if their original, canon relationship, of Jason as starry-eyed and eager to learn and absolutely devoted to Bruce and Bruce to Jason, is preserved. But Jason's origins does leave room for a meaningful interpretation of him as angry and frustrated at the lack of meaningful results of Bruce's methods.

And that's really where my irritation at stories like Batman: Urban Legends, Cheer and Batman The Adventure Continues has it's roots.

Every time one of these stories comes out, I think (or hope, rather) that this will be the one that remembers and respects the origins of the Jason and the Red Hood, that takes into account the changed sensibilities of comics readers in the 30 years since Jason's death and the subtle, 20 year, retroactive campaign to make him the "bad Robin". The "born bad" trope is played out and literally no one likes the message it implies. That some kids are just bad eggs and there's nothing parents or the adults around them can do. Especially when it's played as the kid's fault. If Jason's time as Robin is going to be characterized by anger, then it should be rooted in anger at the social injustices he witnessed as he grew up in an impoverished, crime-ridden, area and the horrors he faced raising himself when every day was a battle for survival. There are topical, meaningful, stories to tell with that backdrop.

But those are never the stories we get.

⚠⚠ Spoilers for Batman: Urban Legends, Cheer ⚠⚠

I'm particularly disappointed in Urban Legends because for the first issue, it looked like that was the kind of story we were going to get. I was put off by the first flashback of Jason being mesmerized by Bruce's guns, and I got that feeling in my gut that it was a bad sign. Jason depicted as impatient and overconfident and the scene with the guns is heavy-handed foreshadowing that got my spidey-sense tingling. I had a inkling then (in the first three pages) of how this story was going to play out, but it was early and I could still see many narrative paths that could lead to a satisfying story. My concerns were soothed somewhat and the little flame of my hope fanned, with the flashback of Alfred scolding Bruce, with Barbara's concern for Jason. A bit of worry returned with the way Jason ruthlessly pursued an addict who didn't appear to be a dealer and with the ending of the issue. The stuff with the addict sat wrong with me but the ending was tempered some by how despicable Tyler's dad was written. The scene was clearly set so that the reader could sympathize with Jason's decision and the scene with the addict could be brushed aside as a side-effect of comics over-the-top need for constant action, so I still held hope.

Issue 2 made me uncomfortable and it's where my hope starts to take a backseat to my expectations. I can dismiss Jason's self-deprecating internal monologue as unreliable narration, except that the flashback reinforces his thought process to explicitly show that it's not unreliable narration, and should be taken at face value. Jason faces physical abuse at the hands of his mother's drug dealer and when the flashback continues later, Jason kills the drug dealer. To be clear, this is a pre-Bruce Jason. His mom is still alive. He's like... 10. He kills this guy for shoving his head into a wall and implying Jason's mother paid for her drugs with sex. This is a scene that serves a single purpose. To show that Jason has always been prone to violence.

In the spirit of full disclosure, there is the small chance the drug dealer might not be dead. But the story obviously wants the reader to think he is, and it hasn't done anything to change that yet.

Starlin already did this story with The Diplomat’s Son in 1988 and he did it infinitely better. AND that’s still technically canon. So now I’m supposed to believe that Jason lost his cool bad enough to kill two douche bags before his sweet 16? Like it’s totally normal for abused kids raised in poverty, who’ve led hard and heartbreaking lives to just... haul off and kill people? That’s bullshit, and when taken with the Jason in the third issue, who is little more than an idiot thug, this story is really doubling down on some fucked up stereotypes.

Which brings us to the most recent issue. I went into this installment with very low expectations. I thought this story was going to be about Jason, through this experience with Tyler, a young boy with a similar background to Jason's, coming to the realization that Bruce's way is the best way and that Bruce did his best by Jason.

That would be annoying (in no small part because it takes increasingly absurd levels of plot armor to keep Bruce's no kill rule relevant, let alone irrefutably right). But I can probably live with that, if only because maybe if Jason officially falls back into line with the Bats crusade, maybe I'll get stories that treat him with respect, stories that don't relegate him to comic relief, dumb brute, or a background body with no lines in a story about the Joker burning Gotham (like Jason would just fucking stand there quietly for that).

And that may still be where the story is going, Jason realizing Bruce is right.

But holy shit do I not have the right words to describe how fucking insulting and gross issue three is.

From start to finish--including the flashback--Jason is written as cruel and fucking stupid. Like straight up dumb.

The entire issue is Bruce explaining the fucking basics to Jason like it's his first day. And Jason flies off the fucking handle and terrorizes a doctor he knows isn't a part of making the Cheerdrops, beats the shit out of some random addicts, and finally, when he can't accomplish anything on his own because he's a dumb brute he calls Barbara for help and rushes in with no information where he's promptly incapacitated and must now wait to be rescued by Batman.

This panel is the least of the issues sins but I can’t screenshot the entire story but it’s representative of the tone for the whole issue (and retroactively tainted the prior two issues).

This is beyond insulting. The only conclusions Jason comes to in this issue are the ones Bruce leads him to by talking to him like he can’t make the simplest connections. And like... in this story Jason can’t make the simplest connections.

This (and the Jason throughout the entirety of this issue) is a far cry from the Jason we fell in love with in Under the Red Hood, who was competent and strategic and intelligent enough to seize control of Gotham’s underworld from Black Mask (who’s no fucking slouch, he’s the first and only person to unify organized crime in Gotham) AND elude and manipulate Bruce until the time and place of his choosing.

This is a far cry from even the Red Hood and the Outlaws Jason who is competent enough to fight the League of Shadows and Ra’s al Ghul (among very dangerous and skilled others) and smart enough to create antidotes for mind control nanotech viruses.

As he should be, by the way. Jason Todd is one of the best, most comprehensively trained fighters in DC’s stable of non powered vigilantes. He’s not irrational or hot headed. He’s pragmatic, tactically minded, and patient. He’s a detective. Right now. Has been since he was 12. Bruce doesn’t have to make him one because he already is. 

Jason is not a stupid thug who uses his fists because his brain doesn’t work. And I can’t tell you how so very exhausted I am by this narrative. 

This is actually the most egregious example of Jason’s skills and intelligence being not just undermined but dismissed entirely. Even Morrison’s Jason had some degree of competency. 

The one, single redeeming factor of this story is the art. It’s beautiful. And Marcus To is a godsend he seems to be one of only a couple of artists who remember that Jason was a child when he was Robin and I’m literally only buying this book because of him. 

Anyway, I’m sorry. I didn’t want that to come out so... um... passionately lol. I’m just very very tired. My intention with this isn’t to ruin it for you, if you like it, that’s fine. 

But this issue shot this story to the top of my "Vehemently Despise” list. 1) Batman: Urban Legends (Cheer), 2) Battle for the Cowl/Morrison’s Batman and Robin, 3) Batman The Adventure Continues.

I hope the next issues somehow salvage this dumpster fire. But I’m not expecting it.

(Damnit. That sounded harsh again. To reiterate, I’m not trying to judge anyone who enjoys it, I just personally hate it and you asked me why lol 😅)

[geekinghaidi]

Bruce Wayne/Batdad rant

I’m so beyond tired of dc writers portraying Bruce as being an abusive father.

A well characterized Bruce Wayne, is a Bruce Wayne who is a good father.

A well characterized Bruce Wayne would never willingly harm his kids (or any kid) because he himself knows what childhood trauma feels like and would never want to be the source of such trauma for other children.

A well characterized Bruce Wayne, tries really fucking hard to be a good father, and he is. He may not be Father Of The Year, but he is a good father nonetheless.

DC writers are taking the whole “angsty, loner, asshole Bruce Wayne” narrative way too far, to the point where it doesn’t really feel like Bruce Wayne anymore.

Yes, Bruce suffers from trauma. Yes, he not that comfortable with vulnerability and he’s not that good at expressing his emotions. And yes, he can get too bossy and self-righteous at times.

BUT

A well characterized Bruce Wayne would use his own experience with trauma to help his children deal with theirs, the best he can.

A well characterized Bruce Wayne would still know to tell his kids when they did a good job and would tell them that he’s proud of them.

A well characterized Bruce Wayne would not be afraid of sharing tasks and responsibilities while on patrol or on a mission because he knows what his kids are capable of and he knows he can trust them.

That being said, he would also know to filter which missions he can take Robin with him (like roberies, hostage situations, etc) and which missions he should take care of on his own (brutal mass murder, human/sex trafficking, etc). At least until they are old enough to start taking care of more gruesome cases as well.

And also, I want to talk about the whole “Bruce Wayne is the mask, Batman is who he really is” thing. Cause I mean yes, this is mostly true (especially at the beginning of his career as Batman). However, not everything about Bruce Wayne is a mask. At least I don’t think so.

The whole playboy, kind of really smart but also kind of a dumbass, “Brucie” Wayne persona is fake. That much we can all agree on (I think?).

But than there’s Bruce’s philanthropy. Through various charities and through the Wayne Foundation, Bruce has donated a lot of money and resources to help the people of Gotham and the city itself. Because he really does love this fucking hellhole of a city.

-The Wayne foundation funds medical research and provides facilities where said research can take place.

-It provides to orphanages and schools and it provides teachers for children with learning difficulties.

-It offers grants to artists so that they can persue their activities.

-It sponsors companies which aims to reunite people with their lost families.

-It also sponsors and runs multiple soul kitchens around the city for homeless people.

And the reason Bruce doesn’t kill, is because he believes in rehabilitation. He has helped ex-criminals get jobs so that they could have a more stable life and not have to go back to a life of crime.

Obviously the criminals that we see most often in the comics are A-list villains that are needed for the stories, so chances are that we’re not ever gonna see them give up the criminal life.

But then you have the small time villains and henchmen and all these people, who usually turn to crime because they need money to live and Gotham’s severe inequalities make it very difficult for them to get a stable, well-paying job.

Well if I’m not mistaking, wether it’s Bruce as himself, as Batman or through WE, he makes sure that these people serve their jail time but then he helps them reintegrate the system so that they don’t have to go back to crime. This is not often shown in the comics but I do remember seeing it (although I can’t remember which comic it was).

The point is that all of this? The donations to various charities, the project of the Wayne Foundation, and Bruce’s philanthropy in general? That absolutely is Bruce himself and not the “Brucie” Wayne persona.

DC writers are forgetting that Bruce Wayne is supposed to be a hero that wants to help people, not some asshole anti-hero or villain or whatever. He loves Gotham and he cares for its people. He cares for the rest of the world too as a member of the Justice League.

And yes, he loves his friends and family and would never willingly want to harm them.

[maxwell-grant]

Cass wouldn’t even begrudingly tolerate [the Black Bat], because she’s even less lenient than Bruce on killing and far more willing to throw down.' - THANK YOU for remembering that.

Cass is my favorite Batfam member, the only one really that I have an active interest in reading about. I'd be incredibly ignorant to not bring bring up such a crucial aspect of her characterization. And even if I didn't personally care for her, well, last thing I'd want is to be another source of frustration for Cass fans. Lord knows there's enough of those to go around.

mousebrass also asked: On that note, how do you imagine a meeting between Cass and the Shadow going?

Fair warning: This one took me 6 hours to write, and it became a hell of a lot longer than I imagined. I liked Cass a lot, but I never quite realized I had this many feelings regarding her until I was tasked with writing this, and a lot of things clicked for me regarding my plans for The Shadow thanks to this ask. @mousebrass, thank you. I mean it. I think I may have found something here I've spent years looking for. Hope you enjoy the post.

I'm thankful that this scenario is only really taking place in a hypothetical fanon where both characters can get a fair shot, because I wouldn't trust DC with this premise. I don't trust DC with either of them as is.

There's a lot of ways that this crossover could go on about taking place naturally, initially because Cass is already connected to some of Batman's pulpier elements, due to her connections to Lady Shiva and the League of Assassins, and one could connect Cass to Myra Reldon (who really should just be race swapped if ever brought back so she can stand out as the cool character she is, without the yellowface gimmick holding her back). There's two things I think are crucial to making the most of this idea, and the first of which has to do with the subject of killing. I usually don't like to come up with hypothetical team-ups for The Shadow that focus too much on the fact that he kills, because it's far from the most significant aspect of his character to focus on, much of it is written from a wrong understanding of the character, and it never amounts to anything other than perfunctory. But here, not only is it completely unavoidable to discuss, here there is actually a very, very substantial grounding as to why this has to be such a big part of the story.

The first and foremost thing that's gotta be established to everyone reading that doesn't know already is this: Cassandra Cain, more so than Batman, more so than any other DCU hero, has a tolerance towards murder lower than zero, and this is completely non-negotiable. She will throw herself on the path of an assault rifle to stop men trying to kill her from accidentally killing each other. The defining moment of her incredibly grim backstory is that she was trained from birth to be the world's greatest murderer, and her first kill traumatized her so badly that she has pivoted as far away from that as possible. I stress a lot that the Shadow should not be written as the trigger-happy maniac comics made him into and that the pulp version killed mostly to defend himself and others, generally left criminals to the police if possible, offered plenty of second-chances, had stories dedicated to the rehabilitation of criminals and so on, but none of this would matter to Cass.

Cass has literally chosen suicide over the prospect of living with murder on her hands time and time again, and The Shadow kills. When he kills, he does so without remorse, with unshakeable certainty. He hates death, he doesn't want lives to be at risk in the first place. But people will die if he doesn't do anything, and what he can do, what he exists to do, is turn the tools of evil against evil, and murder is the oldest tool of evil there is. He doesn't kill because a war scarred him, he doesn't kill because he's got a demon in his soul, he doesn't kill because he's mentally off balance, he doesn't kill because he's evil or sadistic or arrogant or anything of the sort. He kills because the men he fights chose death when they sought to harm innocents and fire guns at him. He kills because he is Death itself.

Regardless of how compassionate he is or can be, regardless of the fact that he's motivated by a desire to protect people, regardless of how justified he is, he is still dropping corpses and laughing maniacally doing so. Cass's real arch-enemy isn't Shiva or David Cain, it's Death, it's the thing that she's fundamentally most opposed to. And guess what The Shadow gets compared to often enough? Literally the very first line of the very first book where we get to see him, this is how we are introduced to him:

So the premise here is that we are taking a character who is defined by her fundamental opposition to death with every fiber of her being, who understands death on a level no other human being does, who is traumatized and hard-wired to detest death at all costs and to choose suicide over it, and asking her to team up with The Grim Reaper.

Even if he received the most abject lesson conceivable on the sheer wrongness of murder, even if he does put down the guns around Cass out of respect for her, he cannot protect his agents and others if he cannot shoot or kill those who try to harm them, and the protection of the agents is absolutely non-negotiable and not at all something he's willing to fuck around with by trying out gadget kung fu superhero alternatives. The Shadow has chosen to throw his life away for their sake time and time again, and no matter how appaling or disgusting Cass finds his deeds, even if he concedes that she's right and should be right on all accounts and that he is fundamentally a monster who has no right to judge others, he would not concede on his mission and he would make it very clear she would have to put him down violently to stop him from protecting others this way, and death has not stopped him before.

And to be upfront in case there's anyone who doubts it, Cass would kick The Shadow's ass, if they had to fight. She is the strongest fighter in the DCU, she lives and breathes fighting and combat in a way no one else does. And The Shadow's not one of those characters who is supposed to be invincible and the best at everything all the time always, he can and does lose fights and scrapes to people far less adept at it than Cass. He's a great fighter, obviously, he hauls bigger men than him through doors and was disabling people with Vulcan neck pinches decades before Spock, and he would definitely have an edge in other areas, but he's out of his league here. Frankly, I don't see The Shadow raising a finger against Cass unless she's been brainwashed into killing people by bad writing. Not because she's a woman, that doesn't really stop him from dealing with evil. But because, for one, she's practically a child compared to him age-wise. Two, he'd obviously know beforehand of her capabilities and how futile it would be to fight or even provoke her. And three, the Shadow's whole thing is knowing. The Shadow Knows and all that. Knowing comes with understanding.

He'd understand very quickly that there is no way someone this young could grow so quickly into the world's greatest fighter without horrific treatment that no one should ever be subjected to. He'd see the movements too practiced and quick, the self-control, the strength and speed far beyond even the trained warriors he's seen, the places where she's been scarred and is good at covering it up. Assuming he doesn't already know about her life story, any meeting between the two would lead to him very quickly figuring out that there's something much deeper about her opposition to killing than just moral reservations, something deeper than Bruce's own gun trauma.

Denny O'Neil's 2nd Batman and Shadow story was about The Shadow secretly helping Bruce overcome gun trauma, and Bruce rejecting The Shadow's intentions to hand him a gun. And to make it clear, people tend to assume that The Shadow only helps people for utilitarian reasons, which is not true as I've tried to demonstrate many times now. I don't want to convey that he would want to help Cass overcome her trauma just so she could be more efficient or something, absolutely no, he'd help her because he helps people in any way he can. I think a story with The Shadow and Cass might involve a similar premise, The Shadow understanding that she has been traumatized very deeply by death and refuses to accept it on any terms, trying to help her overcome it, only to learn that she does not want to "learn" anything she doesn't already know, that she has weaponized her trauma into a source of strength, and wishes nothing more than to help others with it.

And here's where we get to the part that allows the two to be on less antagonistic terms, because one thing that also very strongly defines Cass, at least the Cass I like reading most, is her stubborn, almost desperate need to believe in the best of people, that people can and will change for the better. Like The Shadow, her strength too is knowing, it's perception, the things that she knows about people that words cannot convey. Just as there are many things The Shadow would grow to understand about her that others would not, there would be many things that The Shadow would not be able to conceal from her. Things that no one but her would figure out. Things that, despite her age and lack of experience compared to him, he would have to defer to her knowledge on, which reverses the usual dynamic The Shadow has with people. And perhaps one aspect of that reversal, it's that maybe it's she who winds up secretly manipulating The Shadow into overcoming a deeper issue.

Cass's perspective on killing is shaped not just through trauma, but from a painfully intimate understanding of not just what happens to someone at the time of death, but the cost of murder upon the human soul, the ways it warps people into things they never should have been. Killing is a deeply, deeply serious matter, much more so than fiction seems ever willing to go into. Of course we suspend disbelief for fiction, there's nothing wrong with that, but if a story starts asking questions, starts poking holes into fantasies, they should not be disregarded.

And so it begs a question: How has it affected The Shadow? Is he really as remorseless as he appears to be? Is the fact that he's only killing evil people really of that much use? What's the cost of living as someone who has to know so much about so much evil in so many hearts? Knowledge never comes without price, and knowing evil is his tagline. When he enlists Harry Vincent, he makes it very clear that he has lost lives as he has saved them. From when is that regret coming from? What lives did he lose then? Is he saving people by damning his soul or merely prolonging the inevitable by piling corpses on another end of the scale?

If there's a character that could meaningfully start bringing these questions forth, who could ever truly get The Shadow to stop and reveal things to the audience he never would otherwise, maybe Cass could be that character. A girl who was raised to be a monster, who is treated as a monster and an aberration in-universe (and even outside of it), and turned that into a strength she uses to help others, who cares about everyone and refuses to let others be dehumanized as she was. Who better to know what lurks in the Shadow's heart?

Sometimes when I get an ask, I bullshit my way through infodump walls of text until I can structure it into something vaguely resembling a point. And sometimes, and I know it sounds crazy, but sometimes I get a very, very clear word on my mind related to it before I start writing, that almost seems to be a beacon pointing where I need to get to, and I work my way into getting there. Once you sent me an ask about crossing over The Shadow with Cassandra Cain, the word that came to mind the very second was Language.

It's an interesting relation the two have with language. Language is of course a very substantial part of Cass's character, who does not process language and linguistic development the way most people do, and instead reads body language to the point of superpower. Many stories revolve around Cass's relation to the concept of language, the help she may require from others in getting around things beyond her upbringing, and ways in which she has mastered beyond anyone's scope. Though she is mute, language is her power, what makes her what she is, and she is someone that Batman freely admits could kick his ass if she ever felt like it.

For The Shadow, language is also his power. He speaks all languages and connects allies all over the world, he is an expert ventriloquist, he is able to project his voice beyond what's physically possible, he can imitate voices perfectly to the point of being able to conduct group conversations single-handedly well enough to fool even the people whose voices he's imitating, much of his presence and terror and manipulation are done through his voice, arguably the very reason he exists in the first place is entirely because a radio actor's voice performance was so good and captivating that it tricked people into thinking the character was a real star and not just a glorified narrator. The man you cannot see, but only hear, the perfect hero for radio. And then of course the laugh, which I have a whole separate post on and which, in many ways, acts as a substitute for language in the novels. He uses the laugh so often as a substitute for statements or words, even to himself, that it's pretty much his own personal language. And language is at the core of how he deals with people, as he knows the right language to use to manipulate and move and help them. He knows what to promise, what to reveal, what to omit. He knows what to say, how to say it, when to say it. Language is the strings by which he puppeteers the world around him (and he can talk to animals, at least of one kind).

The Shadow and Cassandra Cain have mastered two different types of Language as throughly as anyone can possibly master them. The Shadow can talk a group of hardened criminals into killing themselves, Cassandra can punch a heart into stopping without killing it. The Shadow echoes his voice "through everywhere and nowhere at once" to whip crowds of thugs into frenzies, Cassandra outraces missiles and was tanking bullets as a child. The Shadow can lie and usurp lives so masterfully to fool even the families of those he's passing off as, Cassandra is a living lie detector who gleams inner conversations from miniscule reactions. The Shadow can speak every language known, Cassandra is the greatest master of the world's most universal language other than music. The two are supposedly human, but every now and then, something comes along to call that into question because of the things they can achieve. They cannot hide secrets from each other the way they do to everyone else. They are driven by a deep desire to help others, to make something out of the circumstances of their lives. To weaponize that which dictates they should be evil and monstrous into a relentless force of good.

Language is the root of understanding. And if nothing else, as impossible as a conciliation of their approaches to crimefighting may be, I think there could be an unique understanding between the two. Perhaps, and this is a bit crazier a concept but one that seems to be where I might have been heading towards all along, even Cassandra Cain finding a calling away from the frayed dynamics of the Batfamily, away from the Bat's looming presence, to become The Shadow's successor, swearing to uphold a mission of justice through non-lethal tactics while he stays on the backseat guiding her. If The Shadow could trust the safety of his agents and the protection of the innocent at the hands of someone as capable and selfless and good-natured as Cassandra, I think he'd be all too happy to be able to trust someone in such a manner, to no longer be the Master of Darkness, but instead to serve the next generation that's weaponized darkness without submerging in it. To achieve, and perhaps return, to his strongest, highest self: A disembodied voice heard, but not seen. Once again the narrator, not the star.

It's a concept I've thought about very extensively for the years I've been a Shadow fan, but now it occurs to me that, if I had to appoint a successor of The Shadow, someone who could take up the mission but shine on their own right, even improve it with the right guidance and circumstances, it would be Cassandra Cain. The Orphan, The Shadow of the Batgirl. Daughter of the greatest assassins, meant to be the world's most lethal murderer, instead pivoted to being one of it's greatest heroes, but never allowed to shine as she should. But in the darker, less restrictive and wilder world of pulp heroes, in The Shadow's world, a beacon would shine all the harder. Perfect strengths attached to perfect opposites, joined together for a greater good, unstoppable after together having weaponized that which most take for granted: the power of language to move worlds.

[flashfuture]

I have a question about Hal, and I'd like your opinion/ view on it. Do you think that Hal is easily emotionally open and vulnerable with people he is close to? Or do you feel like he isn't. Also! Do you feel like he has a problem with being constipated emotionally, not to the level of Bruce but yeah. I haven't read enough comics to really form an opinion of my own, or at least not those kinds of scenes, okay maybe a few, so I'd like your perspective!

alright this was from awhile back. I'm actually truly horrible at this whole tumblr thing and I'm sorry if your ask is just waiting to be answered one day i'll try and get to it lol

Okkay so Hal with emotional vulnerability. One thing to note is first and foremost Hal is protective. He will do whatever he has to do to protect his loved ones. If that means closing himself off or opening up it doesn't matter he'll do it.

But on a day to day I'd say Hal is actually pretty open with his emotions. He is very much in control of his emotions but like it's not hard to tell what he's thinking. I think he may be more stand offish around the League especially after Barry died but like they weren't really his friends. And when Hal and Ollie fight it's usually emotionally driven so yeah.

Hal says he's not into commitment but like you know he's pretty committed to a lot of things. Hal is for sure the more open one between him and Barry. Barry is just shy and Hal has to be the one to make the first emotional step if that makes sense.

With Carol and him they're like a mess a fucking mess. But he's never been unclear about his emotions she's the one who flip flops more I'd say (it's bad writing they don't know how to write Carol)

And with Guy and John Hal was probably at his most dude bro-ish but is now super close friends brothers really with them. He doesn't exactly need to open up they can all read each other like the backs of their hands. Same with Kyle but you literally can't get more emotionally open than Kyle Rayner so yeah.

Nowhere near as closed off as Bruce yeah no way. If Hal is feeling a certain way you're gonna know about it. I just think his whole fear of commitment thing is actually just a lack on interest in marriage. Like he talks about spending his life with friends and Carol and wanting kids and the corps. And vary rarely certain writers who barely understand Hal will bring up a marriage like it's a natural conclusion, I literally just think Hal isn't a marrying person. The same way Dinah and Ollie most certainly aren't but DC can't get out of their own way to stick to characterizations that don't fit a heteronormative lifestyle.

@haljordangreenjedi or @wajjs know Hal way better than I do and might have totally different thoughts on this that i'd love to hear (you know if you want no pressure lol)

[thattimdrakeguy]

I feel like DC’s obsession with trying to make Damian look cute with massive head and scrawny bodies end up just making him look more like a fucking goblin cause he’s surrounded by people that don’t share the art style.

He just doesn’t look like a human anymore some of the time, let alone look like himself.

Like I already feel like always trying to make him small and giving him short jokes is redundant with it already being Tim things--especially since Damian was originally very TALL for his age (according to bios Damian was only an INCH shorter than TIM when they first met), which makes it just out of character and inaccurate when they pretend he’s short.

But I keep seeing this Damian page (I’m not showing it cause I didn’t wanna download it, everyone looks real crappy on it) cause “LOOK IT’S TIMMY IN IT”, but Damian just looks freaking monstrous. It doesn’t work at all.

People will eat it up, but I just have a hard time finding it cute at all, because it’s just forcing it so much to the point it’s just superficial and beyond.

(Ignore the dead bat, I’m not questioning his morality and think it’s even stupid he did that cause he was already past murder at this point.)

Like I prefer this--because, well, it’s consistent with what Damian’s supposed to look like. Like he looks unique, and it’s him, and his proportions aren’t off for an athletic then 10-year-old in a comic book aesthetic world.

But the same artist making Damian look like this--

or like this--

--is trying so hard to make Damian something he’s not that it just ruins the whole mood and vibe of the character.

(And those are the better looking examples of this, cause stupid bad changes or not it’s a good artist, others though...they sometime make him hideous...Also ignore the gun, I just already had this page saved.)

Does that even look like the same character beyond costume? It’s like when they draw Tim looking like a 40-year-old man...it’s not what he looks like: So why draw him like that? Cuteness isn’t a sign of quality, so I view it as just crummy work.

A lot of people love it--but if I thought what others did my opinions on pretty much everything would not be what they are. “Oh no, I think the obsession of focusing on Tim’s depression period to the point of making him a victim exaggerated beyond the comics themselves is terrible. What a crime.” “Tim’s characterization changing can only use being traumatized for so long, and in only so many ways before it’s just freaking forced” “Ignoring Jason’s problems with the Bat-Family to make them close ruins the chance for a better story and actual character development--how controversial.” “Red Robin ruined Tim in the long run.” “Making Dick just a chatty, sexy, fan service machine lessened his character really badly. Considering he was quite a mature young man, with his own problems and talents that he took to heart. A lot or at least some may think it, but it’s not often said.” “I think Geoff Johns’s Teen Titans ruined pretty much every one of the Core Four.”

Like look--I’m not gonna change the standards of how I look at every character. I’m not gonna make exceptions or anything. So forcing this whole thing with Damian just reaaally ruins him for me, because it’s all in an attempt to make him different. But I don’t want him to be different.

If they make a steep change, that is notably out of character with previous writing or personality things, it’s just out of character.

They keep making Damian out of character.

I know people don’t care cause, like, look at the fandom, there’s so much stuff where Damian is a literal baby or headcanons that go “Okay, hear me out: What if Damian did something he wouldn’t do? WOULDN’T THAT BE SO CUTE?!” or even just stuff that shows some people never met a kid Damian’s age.

There’s a lot of stuff about Damian as far as my thoughts go that’s changed since I read the original Batman and Robin series again--but also because of that I think all the random changes just stink. Cause he was a more interesting character as they just let him develop more naturally, and didn’t do the whole “HAHA HE’S A BRAT.” (like reread the original Batman and Robin, you’ll be confused why even other writers of the time wrote him as they did. It’s inconsistent af.)

Changing basic stuff about Damian, and changing the way his relationships with others work, and leading into the patterns of “HE’S BETTER” “OH NO HE’S BAD AGAIN” “HEY HE’S BETTER”, as well as the fandom ignoring the fact he still kept doing bad shit even in the series they like just because it panders to them. Like I think it all just sucks.

Plus some people’s idea of “character development”, is just plain Damian acting like a whole different character. He was raised in a cult, he has a very specific personality, he lives in a house with Batman. There’s a difference from him learning morals, and getting more used to non-cult stuff--and him just having a total different personality, or having him act immature in ways he just wouldn’t.

Kid helped a company with their finances, and they just treated it as just fine like he was an adult, like how he prefers to be treated, which I found endearing because it showed that it’s okay he’s different, and he’s shown respect. But having him do stuff he wouldn’t do, cause logically there’s no reason for him to suddenly change in such ways--that’s not character development, it’s just out of character.

But original Damian? Like what he was sort of meant to be originally by his creator. As much as I think the quality of the writing sucks. Just the idea from it, is something I like.

If it isn’t them, no matter the character, I don’t like it. I think it’s bad stuff.

[bigskydreaming]

Its just never not gonna be a huge pet peeve for me when people make a thing about Robin as Mary’s name for Dick being a retcon. I’m just like, yes, and? What does that actually CHANGE, and also its a thirty-year old retcon. Like, its just...that’s a really long time, you guys, lol, just like the ‘Dick was fired’ retcon is even older, and like......I just don’t see anywhere where “well it wasn’t like this decades ago” is used as an actual invalidating argument for major things pertaining to other characters. *Shrugs* You can find retcons in EVERY character’s stories, but these are the sticking points, apparently.

Thing is.....do people actually adhere to this as a reason not to like the Robin-as-Mary’s-name-for-Dick thing because the fact that it was a retcon actually bothers them? Because if so, that logic would seem to invalidate a TON about the Batfam that people DON’T seem to have a problem with. So rather, it just always comes across as attempting to use the fact that this particular take from canon wasn’t the FIRST take on the subject, as like, an attempt to just invalidate something people don’t like for other reasons.....and the only other reason I’ve ever been able to come up with for why people have such a problem with that origin for Robin, is because it grants Dick a close personal connection with the name that can’t be dismissed as irrelevant or not emotionally significant, and one that other Robins can’t really ‘compete with.’

Except problem there is....none of the other Robins could compete with Dick here anyway, if it WERE a competition, which its not....but like, the part fans of other Robins who don’t like Dick for whatever reason tend to overlook so often is that Jason and Tim are legacy characters....and DICK’S legacy characters in particular. 

I focus on Jason and Tim here because Stephanie wasn’t created to be a legacy character - she became Robin later on after her creation, but she wasn’t created to BE Robin. I’d argue the same is true of Damian, because I think the catalyzing impulse behind creating Damian was to have a biological son for Bruce, or specifically a son of Bruce and Talia’s, and as much as I think Damian being Robin was always an inevitable part of his character trajectory after that point because of the importance of the Robin mantle in the DC mythos and the Batfamily in particular....again, I don’t think he was created to BE Robin, specifically.

But Jason and Tim WERE. They just were. There’s no ifs, ands or buts about it. They’ve grown beyond that - or at least they had until DC decided the best way forward for Tim was backwards - but no matter what they became, the catalyzing impulse for creating Jason and Tim was to make a new Robin.

They were created as Dick’s legacy characters. Not just to be partners for Batman, but to be inheritors of the legacy Robin mantle. To step into a role that was made relevant and made popular by Dick’s character.

And I think some fans are bothered by that, but its like....that doesn’t make it less true? Unless you can come up with a compelling argument for how you can look at Jason or Tim’s debut or early character concepts and not see it as ‘they were created to be a Robin’.....they’re Dick’s legacy characters. And I don’t think there’s any reason that has to be limiting, or makes them less than any other character....the vast majority of DC’s character staples ARE legacy characters. They’re still full-fledged characters in their own right, its simply relevant to the how and why of their creation. Like I’m not a Hal Jordan fan at all really, and I’m a huge Kyle Rayner fan. Doesn’t mean I’m not very aware of the fact that Kyle is a legacy character of Hal’s. Kyle does not exist, if Hal didn’t exist. You can’t remove Hal from the equation and be left with much if any substance for Kyle to begin from....no matter what Kyle later became, under his own narrative power, due to his own stories and characterization.

(And yes, I know Hal’s not even the first Green Lantern or the origin of the Green Lantern as a legacy in universe or out of it, but Kyle’s origin and story is directly connected to and stemming from Hal and his story in a way that’s simply not true of Kyle and Alan Scott or John Stewart or Guy Gardner...even while Kyle still has strong ties with each of them. Kyle’s story began out of Emerald Twilight, Hal was the catalyst for his creation, they’re tied in a way Kyle isn’t to various other GLs. Hal may not be the initial GL and Kyle may be a legacy character for MORE than just Hal, but he’s very much Hal’s legacy character at the same time).

So the thing about trying to move away from or steer around the idea that Robin was Mary’s name for Dick.....I don’t see what that accomplishes, even if you do dismiss it as ‘invalid’ whatever that means, because its a retcon? And I see a lot of posts and fics that ACT like it changes something, but....does it? Does it change the fact that Tim and Jason are still Dick’s legacy characters? Does it change the fact that in-universe, Dick’s still the one who made Robin notable enough to warrant having a legacy at all? Does it change the fact that out of universe, Dick’s character is still the reason that Robin was popular enough to warrant having a legacy character made in the first place? Does it change the fact that the Robin mantle in the existing DC universe and our outside perception of it, in all practical senses, would not exist if not for Dick’s character, and Jason and Tim at least and in particular, would not exist either? At least, not in the way that they do now?

It seems to me to just attempt to make an illusion of stripping away a layer of emotional significance between Dick and the mantle that the other boys don’t have.....but even WITHOUT that, Dick and the mantle still have the layer of significance that is - he literally created it and its initial popularity - that no legacy character can ever share with the originator of the legacy they embody. With this being true of all legacy characters and legacy originators, across the board.

But lessening the emotional attachment Dick has to the mantle HE created - for WHATEVER reason - doesn’t actually accomplish anything for the other characters, it doesn’t add anything they didn’t already have.

But flip it the other way around....lean INTO the emotional significance of Robin as Mary’s name for Dick.....I’d argue this is as much to the later Robins’ benefit as it is to Dick’s. Because the more emotional weight you give the mantle for Dick, the more emotional weight you give to Dick’s blessing with regards to the other Robins bearing it later on. And even though Dick didn’t choose to make Jason Robin post-Crisis (but that’s a retcon! He made Jason Robin himself pre-Crisis! Where’s the shouting about that? Where’s the constant pushback against people saying Dick resented Jason for being Robin with “oh that’s just a retcon though, originally, pre-Crisis, Dick gave Robin to Jason himself and they were really tight?” See what I’m getting at?), and even though Dick was initially opposed to there being another Robin at all after Jason.....Dick still did ultimately give both of them his blessing, not just Damian...and when you lean INTO the weight that Robin as his mother’s name for her son gives the mantle for Dick.....you simultaneously boost the impact and weight it has for his brothers, as that then extends to becoming Robin as Dick’s name for his brothers.

And thus rather than it just being a name they all bear at one time or another and have in common....it becomes, and REMAINS....a family name, tying both Dick’s first and second families together, with him and his interpretation of Robin not being more IMPORTANT to just him more than the others, but more RELEVANT to how he acts as the bridge, the connective tissue not just between his first family and his second, but also the bridge and connection to the source of Robin, the inspiration, the reason this name they ALL bear exists....as well as then to the later Robins themselves.

And personally, I think that makes for a stronger emotional connection between Robin and Batkid in regards to ALL of them, not just Dick.

But also, back to the pet peeve note....the Venn diagram that is people shouting “Robin as Mary’s name for Dick is a retcon” and people shouting “lol canon what canon, fuck canon, I don’t know canon” is waaaaaay too often a single circle, and that gets filed under things that make me go hmmm. Cuz isn’t that interesting. 

About as interesting, like I said, just once more with feeling....as the people yelling but retcon though about how Robin isn’t that significant a name for Dick - beyond y’know, him just coining it as his own unique persona why should that matter lolol i digress - while at the same time yelling - i have no objections here, you’re doing great sweetie, more of this, more more more about how Dick definitely resented and hated Jason for being Robin, as he did not make Jason Robin himself, see, that was retconned, that means it no longer counts and only the retcon matters now.

Anywho......

[red-hood-redemption]

SO I know I’m like, super late to the party, but I finally got my hands on Robin 2021 and there is literally no one for me to talk to about it so now I’m just screaming my thoughts into the void ✌

First off, before i even bought the first two issues, I read through a lot of other people’s opinions on it to kinda get an idea of where it was going characterization-wise for Damian, and because of all the mixed reactions, I figured I should just read it myself and find out. Now I am the FURTHEST thing from a comic book authority, so like, this is truly just an opinion piece but if it convinces anyone to give the run a chance, then yay!!! Honestly, I’m really glad I gave it a shot because I’m genuinely hooked! I’m actually excited about this series (and it scares me lol)!!!

I'm gonna separate my thoughts into two sections: characters, and story, mainly for my own ease, but also if anyone cares more about one thing or the other it's easier to distinguish. But,  the line is a little blurry so if I end up getting a little too much into the characterization in the story section, just bear with me lmao. OH and I'm going to try and keep this as un-spoilery as possible but we'll just have to see. SOOOOOOOO

Characters

I think it goes without saying that Melnikov's art is absolutely gorgeous, and really does show how much Damian has grown up. It makes me want to sob its so beautiful, everyone is so pretty, even the guy that looks like a washed up, high as fuck Tony Stark lmao. But moving on to the actual characters,

Rose Wilson

I honestly don't know too much about Rose, I haven't read enough about her to say anything about her characterization and how it compares to her other appearances, or whether or not she is OOC, but so far, I'm enjoying her taking up the "big sis" role, like, immediately lmao.

I don't know how much I trust her yet, but I definitely get the vibe that even if she does betray Dami in any way, she's probably gonna stick her neck out for Dami again and he's probably gonna do the same.

I'm really intrigued about her motivations for being here. Obviously, Respawn has something to do with it, but I want to know what's up with that. I've seen a lot of theories and I'm so excited. Also side note, that Black Swan chick is hot, and I can't wait to see more of her in action!!!

I feel like Ravager knows a WHOLE lot more than Dami does about the interesting things going on on the island, mainly because she's been doing a lot more sitting and waiting than he has as of yet, but I'm hoping to see more of the two of them doing detective-y sleuthing together. We love a mysteryyyy

Flatline

Okay but real talk, why does she look like a character straight out of Monster High

Honestly tho, I dig it. It's cute! She's cute! She isn't annoying (yet) but I don't know if I care too much about her other than she would make a cute friend for Dami.

I think the problem with DC is that they know people LOVE Harley Quinn and they try so hard to make characters just like her but it always falls short, so honestly I am a little wary of her character development in this run, but I'm willing to give her a shot since her little coffin purse on the cover of the second issue is so damn cute. I'm a slut for character design, okay?

Oh speaking of Flatline and Dami, I don't ship it and I don't want them to force a romantic relationship into Damian's "coming of age"/"soul-searching" moment okay? Because that's what this run is about, at least to me! More on that in the story section!

They're literally 13/14 years old. That's 8th-9th grade, babes lets think about that for a minute

Also let's stop the whole "lets introduce a female character just to make her a love interest!" bullshit okay?

Basically, Flatline is interesting, or at least has the potential to be, but I don't want to get my hopes up because DC is notorious for disservicing their female characters 😕

I think the mixed reaction to her is valid, I don't think she's had much time to make a solid impression yet, so I guess you'd have to read it for yourself. Personally, I don't understand why people immediately hate her, especially because she's like, 14, and what kid that age isn't annoying? like at least a little bit lmao! But, yeah. I don't trust her either but literally everyone on this island is sketchy at least and a murderer at best, so hey 🤷‍♀️

Damian

His new outfit lmaoooo at first I was like "WHaT is this child wearing? You'd think Dick would have rubbed off on him and taught him what good taste looks like" but then I saw the later outfit, with the gold patterning and those sleeeevessssss ugh and I take it all back. A Fashion Icon TM. Truly stunning. A sight to behold. So proud, look at him go 😪

I think there's a lot of different opinions on Damian's characterization in this run, and I can definitely see where its coming from, but I disagree with the notion that Damian has been done dirty and reverted to a blood-thirsty, feral child.  And I have a LOT of opinions on the whole "feral" thing regarding Damian period (but that's for another time).

I don't think of Dami's rampage as a regression for his character. He's letting of emotions right then and I think its very similar to him venting. Its just not verbal, its physical and he knows he's not going to have to grapple with the consequences of his actions on the first kill. He knows he's technically not doing anything wrong.

He is clearly upset at Bruce and his failure to protect Alfred, and while Dami and Bruce are really often described as being very similar personality-wise, they are still distinctly different individuals who came to their current moral codes in vastly different ways. Bruce came to his "no killing" rule on his own; he made that decision for himself. It wasn't taught to him, it was a moment-of-truth kind of situation. Damian, on the other hand is in a vastly different situation.

Dami is, I think, at the beginning of the climb to his own moment-of-truth. He is in his rebellious phase like Dick, where he's gone off to spread his wings. It's not his conscious intention (at least that's not the vibe I got from reading the first two issues), but its directly underlying his "mission".

Damian is growing out of the expectations of his parents and into his own person. We all know he's been thrown from one moral code to another, both drastically different from each other. I don't think its a regression for him to lose his way a little, because realistically, he's going to have to in order to find it, specifically a moral compass that he forged on his own. He's just what? 14? Like hell a kid his age wants to listen to any form of authority. He's as stubborn as it comes. Damian needs to come to his decision regarding the path he takes in life on his own. It can't be made for him. He's seen and lived both sides of the coin, and I don't think he should be forced just yet to choose a side or pave a middle ground, but I do think that he should get the opportunity to see and experience all the gray areas on his own.

I think I'll transition from characterization to story here, because let's face it, this story is about Damian dealing with his confused emotions right now, in the wake of losing Alfred, a man that kind of acted like a grounding presence, a voice of reason, or a moral compass for him (and honestly Bruce and the rest of the bat crew if we're honest).

Story

So there's a lottttt going on in the story that is really enticing and exciting, and I'm really interested to see how it all plays out.

All the rules to the tournament are so, sketchy? Like they don't sound like they are meant to be sketchy, its basic safety and guidelines or whatever but with all the glowy green shit and the stakes of the tournament? Yeah, you can bet your ass its the "no fighting at night" and other shit is gonna be broken, and that's likely when the fun begins *insert evil laughter*😈

I was slightly put off by the whole "let me teach you to have fun" thing with Rose, because it's not like Dick, Steph, Jon, and like the Titans haven't done that with him too, but eh, not something I'm too concerned about. It's definitely just a segway to get us introduced to more characters that might become Damian's friends which will be interesting considering what Mother Soul said about fraternizing.

And that's another thing! I want Damian to make some friends! I know he already has some, but here's the thing: I think he's already been struggling with belonging, and he's definitely been feeling the disconnect between his life and other kids', whether they're supers/vigilantes or not. I think it'd be nice to see Dami have the experience of meeting people who he at first thinks are just like him!! and then realizing that maybe he doesn't really fit in here either, and that it's okay to feel like you don't belong, as isolating as it may feel at times. It just means you have a set of values. I want him to realize that its not always a bad thing, and you learn more about yourself and your own heart this way.

And from there,,, lets talk about the thing that stuck out to me the most in these two issues! GUILT!! It's mentioned SOO many times already, and I think its going to be a really fun, heartbreaking, and interesting aspect to explore about Damian. Is it guilt about his actions? Leaving behind family? Not being able to save Alfred? Not being a perfect example of Robin? He may call himself Robin but he doesn't sport the OG look or symbol like before. I love that his guilt takes on the form of Alfred though, or at least his conscious. I think it'd be really interesting to see this conscious disappear when Dami strays too far from his center, and when he finds it again, it reappears.

I really think that seeing Damian's actions in this run as a failure of character development is an unfair assessment, though. You can't do everything right in order to grow! You have to screw up, lose your way, experiment with life to find your fit, right?

Something tells me he doesn’t care for the tournament itself, but the end result, and the people behind it and more about WHY it was hidden from him. I mean he finds out the tournament TRULY begins once everyone has died once and tHEN he kill everyone? Felt to me less like a “killing spree” as everyone put it to a calculated decision to get the tournament going. He literally cuts Mother Soul off in the middle of her speaking to start fighting at the beginning

Anyway, just my thoughts lol. I do have some issues with the past two issues, and I might make a separate post about that, but honestly not enough for me to dislike Robin 2021 so far. I mean, besides the very obvious white-washing in the second issue, because DC can absolutely do better. And they should. It’s like they thought we wouldn’t notice???? But besides that, story and characterization-wise I’m looking forward to more. Here’s to hoping it stays that way, just with a better colorist!

[brokentoys]

The baby stuff is fucked up... I think the page where Bruce nearly ran over a baby, then proceeds to describe how it would sound if he had crushed the baby with the batmobile... when he is already DRENCHED IN BLOOD, and then Bruce talks about how he wants to cry... yeah, that was just too much. Honestly, a BIG ISSUE with Dark City. It just felt like... it was being as edgy as it possibly it can. Not to mention, him killing literal dogs (pitbulls, I think?) I honestly blame the Killing Joke. Because it DID feel like it was trying to be that way.

I have a love/hate relationship with that storyline! Because YEAH... Eddie DIDN’T need one. It’s OUT OF CHARACTER FOR Eddie to get one. (Eddie, is an insecure man, HOWEVER. He refuses to acknowledge that. If he acknowledges his flaws - it’ll make him believe his parents, and everyone who mistreated him, were right about him all along. Therefore, he keeps pretending he has no flaws. Fake it til you make it.) And I hate, hate, hate that Emo Design. It’s so... Not Eddie! So... I feel he wouldn’t get a facelift, because that’s also implying he was flawed in the first place. (Also, I don’t know WHY he’d get one... either? It’s kinda rare for comic characters to... Do That.) I also hated that the comic and Shane totally discarded the awesome setup for Eddie in Hush... just to bring in Emo Eddie. I also didn’t really... care for Eddie’s characterization in it? They were trying TOO hard to make him a “playboy”... even tho, as I said - the thing I love about Eddie is that he’s always loved romance and sex (until they wanted to make him a Rick Sanchez like character in Modern Depictions) but... hoo boy, they were trying WAY TOO HARD in this just to make this new Eddie seem “cool”.

But there ARE actually things I loved about that comic. There is a possibility that if it wasn’t for that comic... Eddie may have not ever had the “abuse story” - I say possibility. Since it was around 2004 - at the same time, Justice by Alex Ross had also introduced the idea that Eddie was beaten by his father and literally cannot lie as a result. And the cartoon (the other one that featured an emo... er, more Gothish Eddie) around the time also introduced the idea that Eddie’s father mistreated him. (Not straight up Beat, because it was a children’s cartoon.) So... I really don’t know if that was Shane’s idea - or if DC KNEW they were gonna tell that story with Ed now, and it was communicated across many writers that’s what they were gonna go with. BUT ANYWAAAYYYSS. I also liked in the story... Eddie ended up killing the old guy who was using him. And it MIRRORED how Eddie’s own father would beat him. It depressingly shows how Eddie is like his father, but also kind of feels like Eddie is getting revenge. As the old man used Eddie to cheat, and also the old man mistreated his own son. I also LOVED that Eddie was supportive of the old bastard’s son - and despite the old bastard treating his son like he’s stupid... it’s Eddie and the son coming together that they were able to OUTSMART the Bat... proving to BOTH their fathers that they weren’t stupid, after all. (Hell, Eddie even thinking the son is Smart despite him being a big brute.) 

So, yeah the comic had lots of bad... but had some good, too.

[qrovidcore]

hey what’s up tumblr i’ve now seen hbo’s watchmen all the way through Three Fucking Times and i very well may go for a fourth if given an excuse whoops and apparently i can’t stop thinking about Laurie’s joke in She Was Killed By Space Junk, no i’m not the first person to analyze this and i’m sure i won’t be the last but i sure do have some Thoughts^TM,  so here’s some meta let’s go.

major spoilers ahead for the entire series:

Hey, it’s me again. I’ve got a joke. Stop me if you’ve heard this one. There’s this guy, he’s a bricklayer. He’s really good at it. He’s a real master of his craft. Because he’s precise. Every brick has its place. Anyway this guy has a daughter and he’s gonna teach her to be a bricklayer because after all, all a man has is his legacy. So dad decides to build a barbecue in the backyard. He does the math. He figures out exactly what he needs and he shows the daughter how to do everything. Step by step. And when he finishes, it’s a beauty. It’s a perfect barbecue. Just the way he drew it in blueprints. Only one problem. There’s a brick left over. One single brick. The guy freaks out. He must have done something wrong. He’s gonna have to start all over again. So he picks up his sledgehammer to knock the thing to pieces and his daughter suddenly says ‘daddy wait! I have an idea.’ She picks up the orphan brick and throws it up into the air as high as she can. And then…shit. Messed it up.

Okay forget that joke. Can I tell you another one?

As I said, I’m not the first to break down that Laurie is referring to specific people who have an influence on the story, there’s plenty of meta posts online that’ll say the same thing. I just think this is a Really Clever way to introduce us to her, to the major players in this story, and to the events from the comic that are going to end up being referenced. Anyhow, the bricklayer here is The Comedian. Laurie’s father. I’ll get back to this and how it connects later, but given that one of Watchmen’s major themes is the concept of legacy - who carries it and how, and what happens when that legacy is painful - this is a neat little hook into that idea. Laurie’s dad’s legacy. What she’s done with it, what she’s going to do with it, how she feels about it. Again, coming back to that.

Okay. Forget the brick. New joke. Three heroes die and they all show up at the pearly gates. God’s there and he’s going to decide what their eternal fate shall be: heaven or hell. Our first hero is dressed up like a big owl. God says to him “I gifted you the ability to make fantastic inventions. What did you do with this amazing talent?” Owl guy says “I made this really awesome flying ship and lots of cool outfits and weapons so I could bring peace to the city.” God asks, “So how many people did you kill?” Owl guy seems offended. He says “Zero. I didn’t take a single life.” God frowns. “Sorry owl guy, your heart’s in the right place but you’re just too soft.” God snaps his fingers and the hero goes to hell.

I'm not super into the comic so it took me a while to get that she's referencing Nite Owl. I think this is strange since he doesn't appear in the show himself, whereas everyone else she talks about does, but I suppose it gives a more rounded-out view of the different approaches to heroism, and what exactly constitutes it, and also ties in another one of the original Minutemen. They did cut this over her arrest of Mr. Shadow in the bank, which makes me wonder about his role and why he appeared, and I still find it strange that this part of the joke wasn't about someone who had more of a presence in the show. (Though that being said, DC making fun of Batman, their own big-ticket character? 10/10 thank you for this).

Where was I? The pearly gates await our next hero in line for Almighty judgment. Our hero number two is confident he can game this out because that’s his God-given talent: smarts. Some might even say he’s the smartest man in the world. “So what did you do with that big brain I gave you?” asks God. “As a matter of fact, I saved humanity, ”says Smarty Pants. “Well how’d you do that,” asks God.” “Well I dropped a giant alien squid on New York and everybody was so afraid of it they stopped being afraid of each other.” “OK,” says God. “How many people did you kill?” Smarty Pants smiles. “Three million, give or take. But you can’t make an omelet without breaking a couple of eggs. “Christ,” God says. “You’re a fucking monster.”  “Am not,” says Smarty Pants. God snaps his fingers and our hero goes to hell.

GOD YES PLEASE DRAG OZYMANDIAS. GET THIS FUCKER’S ASS. Though the line that’s sticking out to me here is “You can’t make an omelet without breaking a couple of eggs.” Watchmen’s got an egg motif - and that’s an entire post on its own - and wow this is a place to drop it. I find it interesting that it’s given to Adrien here. Especially since it comes back later, when Will tells Angela that that’s what Jon said in justification of giving his life to stop the 7th K/Cyclops and Trieu. Eggs are used for a lot of things, but this line ties the motif solidly to a value of life here - how Adrien is the way he is because he refuses to value other peoples’, and maybe how Jon is the way he is because, when you can see the future laid out before you and live knowing how you’re going to die, how do you learn to value your own?

Okay. We’re down to the nitty gritty now. One hero left. God cracks his knuckles ready to administer the final reckoning. Now Hero Number 3 is pretty much a god himself. So for the sake of telling them apart, he’s blue and he likes to stroll around with his dick hanging out. He can teleport, he can see into the future, he blows shit up. He’s got actual superpowers. Regular God asks Blue God what have you done with these gifts?” Blue God says “I fell in love with a woman, I walked across the sun, and then I fell in love with another woman. I won the Vietnam War. But mostly I just stopped giving a shit about humanity.” God sighs. “Do I even need to ask how many people you’ve killed?” Blue guy shrugs. “A live body and a dead body have the same number of particles so it doesn’t matter. And it doesn’t matter how I answer your question because I know you’re sending me to hell.” “How do you know that?” asks God. Blue God sounds very sad when he softly says “Because I’m already there.” And so, a mere piston in the inevitable of time and space God does what he did and will do. He snaps his fingers and the hero goes to hell.

And now, we’ve got Jon. Dr. Manhattan. It's a neat moment of insight into his actions, motives, and how those are perceived by others (namely Laurie), and it's a nice thread of introduction to his previous actions to drop for audiences who haven't read the comics (actually, I can make this point about Adrien’s part of the joke too). Especially because most of what we get of Jon in-show is his relationship with Angela, his entire character arc really revolves around her and we don't see him portrayed as the contentious, unfeeling figure the world sees him as. So this sort of contrast between him as a figure and him as a person is very telling, doubly so coming from someone who it's clear knew him. And I really appreciate that there’s just as much stiffness as there is warmth to the Jon we the audience see - he’s kind, he’s loving, but he’s also very matter-of-fact and deterministic, and that bit of characterization really spans the gap between these two versions of him.

And so it’s been a long day at the pearly gates. All the heroes have gone to hell. His work done, God’s packing up to go home and then he notices someone waiting. But it’s not a hero, it’s just a woman. “Where did you come from?” asks God. “Oh I was just standing behind those other guys the whole time, you just didn’t see me.” “Did I give you a talent,” God asks. “No, none to speak of,” says the woman.  God gives her a good long look. “I’m so sorry. I’m embarrassed. Seriously, this almost never happens but I don’t know who you are.” And the woman looks at God and she quietly says “I’m the little girl who threw the brick in the air.” And a sound from above, something falling: the brick. God looks up but it’s too late. He never saw it coming. It hits him so hard, his brains shoot out his nose. Game over. He’s dead. And where does God go when he dies? He goes to hell. 

Into some Thoughts^TM that I haven’t seen anyone theorize yet(?): I think God is meant to be Lady Trieu, and even if Laurie wouldn’t know this yet that’s some brilliant fucking foreshadowing. It's not as exact, but enough parallels are there that I think they're purposeful. It makes Trieu out as the ultimate judge of everyone - and in a way, she is. She sees herself as the most deserving of power of everyone, and it's her who kills Dr. Manhattan - sends him to hell, you could say, and he knows she's going to do it. It also hints at how she's going to die too, crushed by her machine falling from the sky like the brick, because she didn't expect anyone would be capable of stopping her. And where does God go when he dies? He goes to hell. Trieu isn't ultimately above the others, and she's subject to their justice as they are to hers. 

Fitting too that Laurie is involved with the plan to stop Trieu, since, as I said I’d come back to, the girl who threw the brick is Laurie herself. Her depiction of herself in this way is representative, perhaps, of Laure's own feelings on vigilantism and what justice is, and that she's the force that's going to bring down these overblown personalities and their many incorrect uses of their abilities. Given this, it's interesting to think how the "failed" joke at the beginning connects, given that Laurie's dad is the bricklayer, and he's definitely... not a good person, or at least not in this continuity. But I wonder if it's indicative of what Laurie mentions about her parents training her up to do vigilante stuff (especially since she’s based in part(?) on a member of the Minutemen from the comic), and how she feels about her father and his work. If the brick is symbolic of his work as a vigilante, is Laurie throwing the brick in the air, and ultimately taking down the threat at the top, meant to indicate how she sees herself using what she learned from him, or - maybe and - a disrespect for his work based on her justified hatred of him?

Roll on snare drum. Curtains. Good joke. 

[dottie-wan-kenobi]

song lyrics I use to characterize Dick Grayson

This is definitely not everything (& I would love to do more) but it’s also Extremely Freaking Long so. Many thanks to @zitkaplushie for chatting w me abt this! I would love to hear your thoughts/additions/etc. If u disagree w any of these, feel free to debate w me but please be civil!!

— OVERALL:

Drag Me Down by One Direction: okay there are tons of parts that fit but this line is the best: “I've got fire for a heart / I'm not scared of the dark / You've never seen it look so easy”

I think this one is kind of straightforward lol but. The first line kind of tells me that Dick is passionate, and feels more with his heart than his head. The second line is just kind of a tongue in cheek thing like obviously he’s not. And the third one is both Dick’s confidence and also that it’s just TRUE. He makes things look easy, all kinds of things. It’s just a fact. 

High Hopes by Panic! at The Disco: ugh this has such good lines but this one: “Mama said / Burn your biographies / Rewrite your history / Light up your wildest dreams / Museum victories, every day / We wanted everything, wanted everything”

So I think “Mama” thru to “dreams” ties back to him becoming Nightwing, or going through different identities and kind of letting himself go with it to an extent. Like he doesn’t let it hold him back. The rest of it, like...that’s just Dick’s superheroing career. “We” in this case could be him and Bruce, him and the Titans, him and Damian, etc etc

Catch My Breath by Kelly Clarkson: um. the whole song. the whole thing. buuuut one line I’ll analyze will be: “I don't wanna be left behind / Distance was a friend of mine / Catching breath in a web of lies / I've spent most of my life / Riding waves, playing acrobat / Shadowboxing the other half / Learning how to react”

“I don't wanna be left behind” - he knows this feeling well already and doesn’t want to relive it

“Distance was a friend of mine / Catching breath in a web of lies” - he has like no civilian friends in canon, and even then he’s always lying to somebody about something. There aren’t many people he can be truly close to and open with, other than like Donna and Roy and Kory

“I've spent most of my life / Riding waves, playing acrobat / Shadowboxing the other half / Learning how to react” - idk, when I see this it makes me think that he’s just lived this life that isn’t exactly normal and he recognizes that

Birds by Imagine Dragons: this one makes me so sad but: “I know that / Ooh, birds fly in different directions / Ooh, I hope to see you again / Ooh, birds fly in different directions / Ooh, so fly high, so fly high”

So obviously Dick has lost a lot of people important to him over the years, either because they died or DC said XYZ and Dick’s relationship no longer has any rights, but. This is how he would feel about that. Grudging acceptance, hope to see them again, wishing them well. 

Dance Monkey by Tones And I: I had to. “I said, oh my god, I see you walking by / Take my hands, my dear, and look me in my eyes / Just like a monkey I've been dancing my whole life / But you just beg to see me dance just one more time”

I’ll mention this later on, but I think that Dick projects an image a lot of the time that isn’t what he’s really feeling. This ties into that - I think at certain points in his life, he just gets exhausted and wants to take a break, but he can’t. He feels like everyone is counting on him, either to do this or that, or keep up this appearance. Sometimes they really are, and sometimes it’s pressure he’s putting onto himself!

Icarus by Bastille: tbh this is a song that I think applies to most if not all of the batfam, but for Dick, this is part of it that I like: “You put up your defenses when you leave / You leave because you're certain / Of who you want to be”

I prefer the version of canon where Dick willingly decides to stop being Robin, but even in the way that he gets kicked out, this tells me that he’s steeling himself for whatever may come, and that he’s sure of his actions. 

Stars by Grace Potter: now THIS one is freaking sad. “All those times we looked up at the sky / Looking out so far, it felt like we could fly / And now I'm all alone in the dark of night / And the moon is shining, but I can't see the light.”

Again, he’s lost a lot of ppl!! I usually think of this song as him referring to his parents or Bruce after he “dies”, but it could apply to anyone really. And these lines in specific just make me think that he feels lonely without whoever it is, that he’s not in a good place.

Simple Man by Lynyrd Skynyrd: "Boy, don't you worry, you'll find yourself / Follow your heart and nothing else / And you can do this, oh baby, if you try / All that I want for you, my son, is to be satisfied"

Okay so maybe I hc that the Graysons were very much so free spirits who rubbed off a lot on Dick. But with that aside, to me this is Dick being determined to live a happy life, and knowing it’s going to be a struggle at times. “You’ll find yourself” and “if you try” are things that I think Dick keeps close to mind. Like, maybe he doesn’t know everything right now, but he will. He’ll figure it out. And he can get through anything if he just pushes through it.

Weight In Gold by Gallant: “I’m pulling my weight in gold / Call me anxious, call me broke / But I can’t lift this on my own”

I’ve already mentioned this but Dick has a lot of pressure on his shoulders, like all the time. And he’s also someone who reaches out to others, which is what these lyrics are saying. He’s aware when he can’t handle the pressure anymore and can admit it to himself. (I don’t think this fits him ALL the time, I mean it just doesn’t, but. Sometimes.)

Tears Of A Clown by Smokey Robinson: I really fuck with the idea that Dick is, still, an entertainer. that + the pressure he’s under = “Now if I appear to be carefree / It's only to camouflage my sadness / In order to shield my pride I've tried / To cover this hurt with a show of gladness”

The word “camouflage” stands out to me because I think sometimes the way he hides parts of who he is is to protect himself??? Dick can also be a prideful person, who might not want others to know that he’s been hurt by something they’ve done. 

The Show Must Go On by Queen: relatedly,,, this whole song fits him perfectly. but to do something not related to smiling: “Show must go on. / I'll face it with a grin. / I'm never giving in— / Oh—with the show. / I'll top the bill, / I'll overkill. / I have to find the will to carry on with the show.” 

This ties back to him hiding his real feelings, of course, but also it speaks to how he doesn’t do things by half. This makes me think about being Batman, about how he won’t give in to the pressure, will push through and keep going and uphold his dad’s legacy as best as he can

Pumpin Blood by NONONO: “It's so magical feeling, that no one's got a hold / You're a catalyst to your own happiness you know”

This goes back to my thoughts that Dick has this mindset that if he keeps going, keeps putting in as much effort as he needs to, then he can get what he needs. It’s also kind of those moments where Dick realizes that where he is is good, like being Robin, but it’s not great, and it could be great. When he decides to stop being Robin, it’s like he’s thinking, “I could be happier, and if I want that, I need to do it myself.”

Rocketeer by Far East Movement: this song fits in a lot of spots but. “Here we go, come with me / There's a world out there that we should see / Take my hand, close your eyes / With you right here, I'm a rocketeer”

Overall imo this is a shippy song but this lyric specifically could be Dick and anyone at all -- he’s the kind of guy who reaches out to others, who would enjoy showing people new things. I also think the last bit kind of speaks to how he can feel better and more empowered when he’s not going through things alone 

I Want To Break Free by Queen: “But life still goes on / I can't get used to, living without, living without / Living without you by my side / I don't want to live alone, hey / God knows, got to make it on my own / So baby can't you see / I've got to break free”

This goes back to a few things. For one, I feel that when he feels held back or held down, he’s VERY aware of it and doesn’t like it, and wants to have his freedom back. Another one is, considering all the people he’s lost, it’s like...he doesn’t want to live without them but there’s no choice, he has to. And finally, I also think this is to Bruce, like he’s feeling like he could do and be more if he weren’t being restricted by Bruce

Teams & Friends, Ships, Family, & Bruce under the cut!

— TEAMS & FRIENDS:

Young Volcanoes by Fall Out Boy: there’s a reason why I named my fic after this lol. “When Rome's in ruins / We are the lions / Free of the coliseums / In poisoned places / We are anti-venom / We're the beginning of the end”

I think that Dick really does enjoy superheroing, and that he’s proud of himself and those he works with for being courageous, kind, and helpful to the world. In his more positive moments, this is what I feel like he’d think of his teams and their impacts.

Home by Daughtry: I’ve always thought of this one as a batfam song but tbh I think it works better as a Titans one. “Well I'm going home, / Back to the place where I belong, / And where your love has always been enough for me. / I'm not running from. / No, I think you got me all wrong. / I don't regret this life I chose for me. / But these places and these faces are getting old, / So I'm going home.”

The way I interpret this is like...he DOES love Bruce, he does love the batfam, but ultimately when he thinks about home he thinks of his friends. This is kind of him talking to Bruce, at least in the second half. Another reason why I put it here is that there’s another lyric in the song that says, “I'm going to the place where love / And feeling good don't ever cost a thing.” In the batfam, as zitkaplushie said, love isn’t conditional or anything but it IS exhausting. It takes a toll on them. Love with the titans is just easier.

— SHIPS:

Make Me Feel by Janelle Monae: Dick is bi like this song and this line describes his at-times tumultuous relationships: “It's like I'm powerful with a little bit of tender / An emotional, sexual bender / Mess me up, yeah, but no one does it better / There's nothing better”

He takes comfort and strength from his relationships and sometimes that’s good, hence the powerful/tender part! But in all his relationships, not just his romantic ones, it’s (sometimes) easy for people to affect him

I’m Gonna Be (500 Miles) by Celtic Thunder: this fits all of his ships imo: “When I'm lonely, well I know I'm gonna be / I'm gonna be the man who's lonely without you / And when I'm dreaming, well I know I'm gonna dream / I'm gonna dream about the time when I'm with you”

He’s just a sappy boy who is in love. That said, I don’t think these feelings would overtake him!

— FAMILY:

Losing My Religion by R.E.M.: I read this heartbreaking fic recently that dealt with how Dick hid his feelings from EVERYONE and no one noticed anything was wrong, really, except Cass. so. “Every whisper / Of every waking hour / I'm choosing my confessions / Trying to keep an eye on you / Like a hurt, lost and blinded fool, fool / Oh no, I've said too much / I set it up”

Dick is more open than his siblings, but he does still hide things, especially from them. The line “I'm choosing my confessions / Trying to keep an eye on you” makes me think of Dick trying to take care of his siblings, whichever way he can

This Must Be The Place (Naive Melody) by Kishi Bashi: “Home is where I want to be / Pick me up and turn me round / I feel numb - born with a weak heart / I guess I must be having fun / The less we say about it the better / Make it up as we go along / Feet on the ground / Head in the sky / It's OK, I know nothing's wrong... nothing”

“Make it up as we go along / Feet on the ground / Head in the sky / It's OK, I know nothing's wrong... nothing” - this reads happier than it’s sang but I do think it describes the more positive side of the family dynamics! 

You’re Not There by Lukas Graham: this one is abt (all of) his parents :( “I only got you in my stories / And you know I tell them right / I remember you and I, when I'm awake at night / So give it up for fallen glory / I never got to say goodbye / I wish I could ask for just a bit more time”

There are times where the deaths of his parents & Bruce (and Alfred) weigh heavily on him, and that everything he does is kind of continuing on where they left off, or doing something they didn’t have time to do. I think he would tell his kids stories about them and that he would try to be as true to them as he can be. And then of course, “So give it up for fallen glory / I never got to say goodbye / I wish I could ask for just a bit more time” is kind of his relationship with his parents after they die

— BRUCE:

(I gave him a separate section bc I have a lot of feels abt them okay??)

The Ballad of Dick Grayson by Crafty McVillain: there are actually a lot of songs abt Dick Grayson, but I picked this one bc of this: “Broken hearts improve, but my mind's broken too / Show me how to hurt and I'll hurt them with you / I'll take on the world, I will fight for you / But tell me how to stop, cause now I'm fighting you”

This is abt when Jason takes on Robin but I like to look at this like:

“Broken hearts improve, but my mind's broken too / Show me how to hurt and I'll hurt them with you” - this is when Dick first comes to the Manor, and when he’s first becoming Robin. He’s struggling and Bruce shows him a way to cope. (is it healthy? lmao)

“I'll take on the world, I will fight for you” - this is just...any time really lol. Dick is loyal to Bruce (to an extent) and will fight alongside him, will do almost anything for him

“But tell me how to stop, cause now I'm fighting you” - then this is how it feels when they’re broken apart for the first time, when they aren’t getting along and it’s just a change from the past few years, and Dick doesn’t know what to do about it

Let You Down by NF: “Feels like we're on the edge right now / I wish that I could say I'm proud / I'm sorry that I let you down / Let you down”

“I'm sorry that I let you down / Let you down” - this could be pre-emptive, Dick kind of thinking that no matter what he does, he’s most likely going to let Bruce down

Like how Bruce is always that 8 year old who lost his parents, Dick is always who he was the first night he went out as Robin, desperately wanting Bruce’s approval

He wants the approval and hates that he does, it feels like it holds him down

The Chain by Fleetwood Mac: “Listen to the wind blow / Watch the sun rise / Run in the shadows / Damn your love / Damn your lies”

When I read these lyrics, I think about Bruce and Dick when they’ve been arguing, having a quiet moment (the peace after the storm, zitkaplushie said), kind of reflecting, and Dick just thinks, “I want you to love me but I want you to stop lying to me.” Or like, “your love comes with your lies and I don’t know if I can handle that [right now].”

Numb by Linkin Park: “I've become so numb, I can't feel you there / Become so tired, so much more aware / I'm becoming this, all I want to do / Is be more like me and be less like you”

There’s this moment in canon, before he even gives up being Robin, where he’s acting just like Batman, hunting down criminals with a single-minded ferocity that has his friends legit concerned for him. I can’t remember exactly what he felt about it when he kind of snapped out it but these lyrics remind me of that. He doesn’t want to be like Bruce, he doesn’t want to be Batman, and especially as a teenager, that last line is big. Overall it also fits when Dick IS Batman, and he feels like he’s kind of being swallowed by everything that it is

The Archer by Taylor Swift: okay I’m sorry I can’t pick between these two: “I've got a hundred thrown out speeches / I almost said to you” and “And all of my heroes / Die all alone / Help me hold on to you”

There are a lot of things Dick doesn’t say to Bruce over the years, or things that he wants to say but doesn’t for however long until he can’t hold it in anymore or it’s the right time or whatever. Ultimately that line just tells me that their relationship isn’t one with great communicating

“And all of my heroes / Die all alone” - Bruce ‘dying’. “Help me hold on to you” - Batman when Dick is him. Or it could be about Dick’s parents, and then Dick trying to keep Bruce alive as Robin/Nightwing

[hellzyeahthewebwieldingavenger]

I will respond to this. But in future I’m asking you and others not to send me things like this please.

“This month, Marvel Comics relaunched Amazing Spider-Man with a Nick Spencer as head writer, marking the end of Dan Slott's long run with the title and an end of the "Brand New Day" era of Spider-History.”

The problems start here. BND ended before Slott’s solo run began.

“ Spencer's run begins with a bit of a bang.

Well, about as much of a bang as you get from kissing the same person you've known for 50 years.”

This is a reductive and childish mentality towards romance and sex. It prioritizes the novelty and excitement of ‘new love’ (which is scientifically guaranteed to last like 2 years tops) over the deeper and ultimately more potent emotions attached to proper love, which in truth is kind of like friendship on steroids.

In this specific case it’s especially stupid as, putting aside fan reactions, the fact that Peter and Mj were back together after 10+ years was OBVIOUSLY going to be a shocking moment. A ‘bang’ if you will. This is like saying it wasn’t a moment of audience interest whenever Ross and Rachel seemingly got back together or when Monica and Chandler initially got together. They too had known one another for a long time, a roughly equivalent time for their character and Peter and MJ in-universe.

“This has come after Peter and Mary Jane have been apart for about a decade. This recent "surprise" get-back-to-gether is the same sort of "exciting development" that happens eventually after Marvel breaks a couple up, or kills someone in one of their books (See the Hulk, Jean Grey, Peter Parker during Superior Spider-Man, etc. etc. etc.) Peter and Mary Jane getting back together (apparently) is sort of a big deal.”

Yes. Because fans WANTED them to be back together.

Fans aren’t in this for the roller coaster of novelty. They don’t want Spidey or Superman to be with anyone OTHER than MJ or Lois. By the same token the majority do not want anyone other than Luthor or Joker to be Superman or Batman’s archenemies.

“See, in 2007 Marvel Comics made the bold decision to end the marriage between Spider-Man and his longtime wife, Mary Jane Watson.”

Watson Parker

It wasn’t bold it was asinine

How bold is it when it was the third such attempt to do that? “At the time, fans lost their shit.” And they are STILL angry about it. “You can't really blame them because the deed was done in the most asinine way. For some reason, divorce was out of the question. The alternative was somehow more awful. After Peter's Aunt May got shot in the bo-bo at the end of Civil War, Spider-Man literally made a deal with the devil to save her life.” WTF is a bo-bo? “What did this change exactly? Well, the events of Amazing Spider-Man Annual #21 didn't end in a marriage. So everything that happened after was still the same except Peter amd MJ were a common-law couple. Or something.” And MJ was never pregnant, and all the shit specifically related to their wedding rings, dress, photos, anniversary couldn’t have happened and given how to them marriage wasn’t a piece of paper then this would have massive ramifications for their relationship quite a part from the fact there would now be a massive sore spot in their relationship. “Anyway, like I said, a lot of longtime fans hated it.” No. MOST longtime fans hated it. And most SHORT time fans also hated it. And even many newer fans who jumped on-board after it hated it too. “You know, the audience they weren't trying to appeal to anymore.” Which was idiotic. You don’t try to gain a new audience by throwing away your old one. You try to retain the old audience and bring new people into the fold at the same time. Noticeably this happened in the 1990s. This failed  to happen after OMD and it failed  to happen with the Nu52 which was the OMD for the whole DC universe. The latter failed so badly they reverse rebooted many characters, Superman chief among them. Superman’s financial and critical reception increased when they brought back the OLD Superman who was married (and now a father to boot) and used him to replace the younger, single and hip Superman most people disliked. The OLD fans returned. Shockingly appealing to the old AND new fans is possible. “Still, they came up with a storyline that would be relatable to younger readers, and still be relevant to longtime readers as well”

It wasn’t a storyline it was an era

No. It absolutely wasn’t relatable or relevant to younger readers. I was 16-19 when BND was running. I was directly  the demographic they were trying to appeal to. Let me tell you straight. Those stories were not relatable. At all. They weren’t relevant. At all. The PS4 game’s take? Now that shit was reltable but noticeably that version only takes plot concept from BND. The characterization of Peter is far more in line with his pre-OMD self and didn’t represent a regression of the character

Thousands of people became Spider-Man fans reading the marriage era Spidey comics. If it was so unrelatable how is that possible?

The stories were not relevant to the older audience at all because the whole purpose of BND was to basically ignore 90% of Spider-Man history between 1987-2007. And more importantly even the characteriation before then that they were trying to invoke was done incorrectly. The Spidey of BND was a systemically mischaracterizion of Spider-Man even if yu ignored OMD “The fiscal reasoning made sense, there were Spider-Man films that were out roping in a new generation kids who wouldn't relate to a married Spider-Man.”

There was a 5 season long TV show before those movies aimed directly at children. Kids got into Spidey through that and we didn’t care he was married. In fact he was married on the show

To 90s/2000s teens and tweens the struggles of Spidey in the 1994 cartoon and Raimi movies were not all that relatable. The male members of the cartoon audience were too young to be interested in romance and all the demographics were unlikely to relate to Peter’s financial struggles as they were too young to work. Even if they weren’t too young to work they wouldn’t have been the breadwinner of the household the way they might’ve been in the 1960s. By the 1990s and 2000s times had changed

Peter had become a MAN like halfway through the first Raimi movie and that wasn’t even the most popular or successful one. Spider-man 2, where Peter was distinctly an adult and grappling with adult problems, was

Kids have been unlikely to relate to Batman. In fact as times have changed it’s evident they infinitely prefer Batman to Robin, the character actually created specifically for them to relate to. Batman is at least as popular as Spider-Man, if not moreso

The MCU has made Iron Man and Black Panther (who kids could never truly relate to) and Captain America (whom few people regardless of age could ever relate to as he is almost a moral paragon) fan favourite characters. CLEARLY relatability is at best highly subjective and at worst not essential to making a character appealing

BND occurred after Spider-Man 3 where Peter wanted to marry Mary Jane. If anything the JMS era of Spidey where he was married to the main love interest from the movies and where Aunt May knew who he was would’ve been MORE synergetic with the movies of the time than what BND was “Also, times have changed. Fans freaked out that Spider-Man was no longer married and back to living at Aunt May's home? At the time Peter Parker was in his late 20s (Marvel Time).” No, at the time he was 30 years old. “If this is basically you in 2018, you had no reason to bitch about Brand New Day.” Get fucked. Fans had EVERY reason to bitch about BND back then AND now too. Putting aside how we got there (which would be reason enough) the stories themselves were objectively deplorable! “Looking back at the storyline 10 years after the fact,” It’s not a storyline. It was an era. “it's hard to understand what the big deal was.” It’s hard to understand mischaracterization, illogic, continuity contradictions, sexism, racism, juvenile writing, character deconstruction, borderline gaslighting of the fans, talking down to the audience, price gouging, inconsistent writing and art and just generally bad storytelling? “Because I secretly hate myself, I decided to read every Spider-Man comic published.” I somehow doubt that. Even if it’s true there is a massive difference between reading a story and understanding it. Dan Slott READ a lot of Spider-Man. He knew a lot of Spider-Facts. But he clearly never understood  the character. He might KNOW MJ shut that door in ASM #122. But he absolutely doesn’t grasp it’s deeper meaning. “I started about a year ago, and I'm just hitting stories published in 2007. In retrospect, there are a lot of shitty Spider-Man stories. Some of them weren't as bad as they were made out to be (The Clone Saga, being one of them, surprisingly) One thing about the Peter/MJ marriage (which ran from 1987 to 2007) is you quickly realize their marriage was horrible.” Sure. If you are a bad literary analyst, sexist, crap at contextualization and apply a blunt criteria instead of nuance. If you don’t you get that there were ups and downs with the writing as would be expected of almost anything written across 20 years by multiple writers. “Especially for Mary Jane.” Oh cool, sexist it is then. “It wasn't good, it was a burden to telling good stories.” Kraven’s Last Hunt Sensational Spider-Man Annual 2007 Spider-Man Unlimited v3 #2 Story 2 Parallel Lives Anything by JMS involving MJ Revelations Spec #200 Spec #241-245 Sensational v2 #32 Marvel Knights: Spider-man #1-12 And many other stories I could name say otherwise genius. “This is because the writers involved at the time didn't seem to understand how a marriage works.”

JMS clearly did

DeMatteis clearly did

DeFalco clearly did

Sacasa clearly did

Peter David clearly did

Mark Millar clearly did

Even Bendis clearly did

Maybe it’s not how YOUR marriage works. But everyon’es marriage is a different “The marriage was, at best, an excuse for an instant damsel in distress situation,” Remember how the marriage was used as an instant damsel-in-distress situation in KLH? Remember how that was ALL it amounted to in the Eisner nominated Sensational Spider-Man Annual 2007? Remember how badly MJ was in need of rescuing in the Jonathan Caesar storyline? “or at worse a reason for Peter Parker to go on about how "lucky" he was to be married to a model/actress. Like Mary Jane was nothing more than a trophy to pride himself because he was such a fucking loser in high school.” Yes. Peter never argued with MJ. Peter never confided his concerns with MJ. MJ never alleviated his guilt. MJ never grew as a person from her horrible childhood issues through being married with Peter. MJ didn’t become more self-sacrificing due to Peter. Peter was never pushed to become more powerful by thoughts of his believed wife. They never helped one another through traumatic situations. “What I really want to stress here is, Peter and Mary Jane's marrage was awful.” Nah fam. YOUR analytical skills are awful. “Worst. Idea. Ever.” Nah fam. You writing this was the worst idea ever. Scratch that, me subjecting myself to this shit was the worst idea ever. “Can't take my word for it? Here are some reasons why: Mary Jane Had to Swat Away So Many Dicks” An attractive woman with a very public profile draws unwanted attention? How unrealistic! It’s terrible that such a thing would never happen in real life, real life being the baked into the core concept of Spider-Man. Why if it did it’d be a organic way to give MJ subplots and conflicts of her own to deal with that could impact  upon Peter’s life by extension or something. “Almost from the start, Mary Jane had to fend off other men who were obsessed with her and didn't give a shit that she was married. That's not necessarily Peter's fault, but it really says a lot of the opinion towards female characters in comics at the time.” …how…? This happens in real life…A LOT! And what has ‘Peter’s fault’ got to do with this? It’s not even a statement that warrants a ‘necessarily’. What? If Peter was more ‘Alpha’ other men would know not to try it on with ‘his woman’ or something? Also, let’s properly contextualize things okay. Between 1987-2007 MJ was stalked by like 5 people. That’s once every 4 years if you average it out but 3/5 of them occurred in Michelinie’s run alone which is not the be all or end all of the marriage. Another one was for a single issue and the final one was actually obsessed with Peter and used MJ to get to him. I ain’t saying it didn’t get old but this guy is making it out to be something that was an annual event. “Sure, the idea of someone stalking an actress/model isn't outlandish, and a sad fact of the celebrity-driven reality we live in.” YOU DON’T SAY! And it doesn’t just apply to actresses or models btw. “However, the number of times this was used as a plot got a bit out of hand.” I agree. But 5 times across 20 years, when there was a 5 year gap between the third and fourth instances and a 5 year gap between the fourth and final instance (lasting for 1 issue and wasn’t even the main plot) is not reflective of anything. “That said because it's a Spider-Man comic book they couldn't just settle on a dumpy guy wearing sticky jogging pants. They had to kick it up a notch. With horrific implications for poor Mary Jane.” …yeeeeeeeeeeah? And? Stalkers are horrible. You want there to be tension and conflict so the threat of violence is absolutely justifiable. FFS, kraven the Hunter buried Spider-Man alive and Venom threatened to eat parts of him. And VENOM was Spidey’s stalker! “Jonathon Caesar An obsession so cliche, I'm surprised that nobody made a joke about his knife compensating for having a small dick.” Except circa 1989 it wasn’t  cliché. At least not as far as a Spidey comic was concerned. If we are opening this up to ALL media then sure but then by that logic Gwen’s death and countless other stories would also be cliché wouldn’t they. “The first scum bag to enter Mary Jane's married life was Jonathon Caesar. He was a wealthy man with a lot of connections.” …Almost like Harvey Weinstein or something… “He helped Mary Jane get into the Bedford Towers condominium (which Caesar owned). His motivation? To kidnap a married woman and force her to live in a specially made trap room until she agreed to marry him. Spider-Man didn't even save the day! Mary Jane broke free on her own and the wall-crawler showed up in time to do the cleanup.” Holy shit. If anyone ever needed proof this doofus’s analytical skills weren’t there this is it. The Jonathan Caesar storyline was designed  to be a subversion of the damsel-in-distress  trope. The whole fucking POINT was that MJ saved herself instead of Spidey saving her! Jesus Christ how do you miss that. Not to mention how do you complain Caesar as a villain is cliché but then ALSO complain that the damsel-in-distress cliché wasn’t adhered to. “Caesar went to jail but he used his influence to ruin her modeling career and get her evicted from their home.” *coughWeinsteincough* “Not only that, but MJ's money got tied up in a lengthy legal battle, with no apparent end in sight. In fact the money mentioned here is never talked about again.” Er…yes it is. MJ ultimately settles in ASM #333 wiping out her savings. I’d have thought someone who read every  Spider-Man comic book would have known that. “Caesar eventually got out of jail and continued to stalk Mary Jane.” Again, clearly hasn’t read every Spider-Man comic book and/or is a shitty analyst. Yes Caesar did this but he did this BEFORE MJ engaged him in a legal battle. “Her husband didn't do squat to stop it.” What was he supposed to do? Caesar was out legally and Peter couldn’t just kill or assault the guy. Threatening him would likely have helped Caesar’s legal case further, especially due to the public knowing about the association between Peter and Spidey. Touching Caesar would be like trying to get the Kingpin locked up. It’s extremely difficult for someone that rich and powerful. “He was too busy playing Spider-Man to help his own wife.” No. He was busy saving the lives of innocent people. He wasn’t doing this for fun, he is Spidey for the greater good. MJ knows that. MJ knew that she could ask Peter for help if she needed it and he’d come running. She made it clear she could handle it and like a good husband he respected her decision. It wasn’t like she was trying to reach him for help and he was distracted or actively ignored her. But you know, those disingenuous pieces of misinformation aren’t going to write themselves. Also the stories are a little ambiguous about this but there is a possible implication that MJ was keeping Peter somewhat in the dark about Caesar’s activities. “The only person who was interested in Mary Jane's safety was Officer Hal Goldman, who ended up shooting Caesar dead. Was Hal a super-cop detective that ate serial stalkers for lunch? Note really, see the thing about Hal.... Hal Goldman Let's  follow up this sexist scene with the woman regretting her career choices. Very progressive.”

This bozo shouldn’t be lecturing people on what is and isn’t sexist

FFS OF COURSE someone in MJ’s position would be questioning her career choices. She’s just been stalked by 2 lunatics. But noticeably she doesn’t stop  being an actress/model after this. The moment was a dash of comedy given the situation and nothing more. But you wouldn’t know that given how this guy is not bothering to use context or anything

How the Hell is MJ macing a stalker and then knocking him out sexist? “Hal Goldman wasn't actually a police officer. He was just a fat NYPD civilian desk clerk with a terrible bowl cut who had an unhealthy obsession with Mary Jane when she starred in a soap opera called "Secret Hospital". Although he was "investigating" Jonathan Ceasar's attempts to ruin Mary Jane's life again, he was also obsessed with protecting her from everyone who slighted her. He ran over an old woman who slapped MJ in the face, dropped a stage light on her director's head and tried to clobber Peter with a piece of concrete. However, this is an accurate depiction of how fan-boys react to things.” Remember how over 50% of fanboys threatened or actually inflicted violence upon people because of OMD? Neither do I. “When he guns down Caesar he professes his undying love to Mary Jane and admits to committing all the above crimes. Again, Peter is nowhere around,” Of course he’s nowhere around. Peter doesn’t constantly monitor MJ all day every day. You know…like a stalker. Fuck real life husbands don’t do this. Moreover if we bother to check the issue in question (ASM #339) some interesting details are presented to us. For starters MJ was only endangered due to trickery and bad luck. Caesar forced a co-star of MJ’s to handwrite a note and sign it asking for her to meet him at the set of Secret Hospital. Between the set being a relatively safe environment and the note checking out as legitimate due to the handwriting and signature, MJ had no reason to be suspicious. Peter absolutely intended to go with MJ but earlier that day had been doused with a chemical by the Sinister Six, the effects of which he was uncertain about. He got a call regarding the Six’s activities and the chemical so logically that would take priority over Mj merely meeting a co-star. MJ chose not to delay the meeting until Peter was available and go herself. Again neither she nor Peter had any reason to suspect foul play. So Peter’s absence was never due to neglect. It wasn’t even due to putting the duties of Spider-man before the needs of his wife. As far as either of them knew there was no danger. So again, distorting the facts. Classy. “so when she rejects him Officer Bowl Cut decides to do the old "if I can't have you, nobody will!" Routine. However, she sprayed him in the eyes with hairspray and clobbered him with a purse. You know just as you'd expect a strong female character to do.” Yes. That is exactly what I expect a female, or indeed any character, to do in that situation. Mary Jane had no real weapons. The story even specified that MJ tried  to get a handgun but was still waiting on it. So she improvised and used whatever resources she had to hand. This is routine for Mary Jane both during and before the marriage. Using hairspray and a handbag, which are not obvious weapons but can nevertheless be repurposed for offence, was a perfectly legitimate technique for both the character and writer to employ. It’s almost like it makes her look smart, tough and resourceful for being able to think on her feet like that or something. Oh, and again. MJ is bad because she conforms to a cliché but is also bad because didn’t conform to the cliché of Spidey rescuing her which would’ve also been bad because the marriage is used to easily generate damsel-in-distress situations. This isn’t even a double standard it’s a TRIPLE standard. This jackoff has constructed his argument in such a way that Mary Jane/the marriage can NEVER win. “Jason Jerome This happened in 1990, consent hadn't been invented yet.”

Jason wasn’t a stalker strictly speaking

This storyline, bad as it was, was nevertheless handled very differently from the Jonathan Caesar arc because MJ at least was tempted to reciprocate feelings for Jason whilst she was repulsed by Caesar

YES. the concept of consent WASN’T very well taught back in the 1990s! What the hell is he point here? “Jason Jerome was an actor who thought he could seduce Mary Jane into having an affair with him. This came at a time when there were three monthly Spider-Man titles. This made for one busy wall-crawler. On top of fighting villains, he was also promoting a book and traveling the globe as a reporter. Needless to say, MJ was feeling more than a little neglected. This made Mary Jane susceptible to Jerome's advances. However, despite his best efforts, Mary Jane ended things before they had gone too far. To do so, she invited Jason to her apartment under the pretence of sex. Instead of getting balls deep, Jason Jerome found himself in a room plastered with photos of Peter and Mary Jane together, like inviting an obsessed man into your home without telling anyone is a smart idea.” Jason was not obsessed. He viewed MJ as a ‘conquest’ and from her POV was not dangerous like Caesar or Hal. Also IIRC this occurred after  the incident with Hal, which meant MJ would likely have owned a handgun by this point. Even if she didn’t, she defeated Hal and Caesar and his guards when she was unprepared and improvising on the fly. Here she has had hours to prep and it’s literally in her home. If she suspected Jason to be dangerous (which he was not and had given her no reason to believe so) she was in a great position to handle him. “All the lamps and hairspray in the world cannot possibly stop this potentially becoming a bad situation.” A rich and powerful lunatic with a knife and armed guards outside got their ass beaten by MJ whilst she was improvising…on their home turf. A less rich, less powerful, unarmed man with no displays of mental instability or violence comes to MJ’s home turf on his own. So yes, if she was so inclined MJ could 100% rig up a trap with hairspray and a lamp or a fucking gun if she had one. “If this backfires, let's just hope he's into this sort of thing.” A necrophilia joke? How tasteful. “The Stalker "I said, I'm bored with sort of scenario. Can you try and change this up a bit?"”

Jason Jerome wasn’t stalking MJ

Yes the stalker was lame. Also this occurred around 9-10 years later

You know there is more to this relationship than the occasions when MJ was stalked FFS “The most unoriginal character created by Howard Mackie during his run.” His run when he was possibly dealing with serious health issues. Classy. “The Stalker follows a long tradition of Marvel characters whose names are obvious: The Prowler prowls,” Except he doesn’t do much prowling. He flits between retirement and active costumed work. And he’s not exactly a stalker of the night like Batman when he’s out of retirement. “the Watcher watches, and the Shocker finger blasts people.” Does this guy know what ‘shocking’ means? Blasting people isn’t shocking them. Electrocuting people = shocking people. Vibrating them doesn’t = shocking them. “So obviously, the Stalker was a stalker. Specifically, he stalked Mary Jane. The guy went to some insane lengths. He set off bombs and killed people. The whole time this was happening Peter was busy going out as Spider-Man.” YES. THAT’S HIS FUCKING JOB! Also, for the majority of the time Mj was being stalked she had kept Peter in the dark about the guy. Shortly after he finally did learn the truth he seemingly died. For sure he was kept away from her whilst she was being made a target, but

The 1970s Clone Saga

Spec Annual 1988

Smoke and Mirrors

Web #125

Maximum Clonage

Clone Conspiracy

“Each time he seems to forget the fact that a lunatic had cloned his dead girlfriend every time.”

Horseshit.

He KNEW the truth in every encounter following the first one. He didn’t fall for it on the third-sixth occasions but shockingly  seeing your dead loved one (who died right in front of you) walking around alive is going to emotionally hurt you and dreadge up old wounds and old feelings.

Gerry Conway in Spec Annual 1988 directly addresses this by having Peter acknowledge that intellectually  he knows Gwen to merely be a clone but emotionally  he still feels towards her the same way as though she were the real Gwen.

It’s almost like Conway was a good writer not a HACK like the OP and so knows that in matters of the heart a realistic human being might let their sense of logic fly out the window.

If ONLY there had been a global sensation of a movie released months prior to ASM v5 #1 which demonstrated this aptly.

“Every time it made Peter confused and dug up old feelings. Which, naturally, made Mary Jane doubt the strength of their relationship.”

That literally happened twice. And she briefly  doubted before thinking otherwise or been shown otherwise.

“With this many clones of the dead girlfriend, you'd figure he would have gotten used to it.”

Yes if he was an emotionless automaton. Or written by someone who knows jack about human emotions...like the OP…

“Instead of going to a shrink to process these feelings,”

Thus risking the anonymity that protects himself and his loved ones.

“Peter usually fell for the various manipulations that typically came from these convoluted cloning schemes and hit whoever was responsible.”

OBVIOUSLY he hit whoever was responsible. They were super villains, he was going to bring them to justice no matter what

Again, he fell for it the first time. But ONLY the first time. He was aware Gwen was a clone in every other encounter and never played along. Many of those instances weren’t even villains pulling a scheme but a situation Peter happened to mix himself up in. Spec Annual #8 had nothing to do with him as the High Evolutionary wanted to apprehend Gwen for his own purposes. Web #125 involved him discovering Gwen’s clone in the suburbs but no villain had planned on him doing that

“That Time Illegitimate Kids Showed Up

Gwen Stacy was always portrayed as a saintly woman cut down in the prime of her life.”

Except for all those times she absolutely wasn’t prior to her death; that’s not even counting AUs.

Saint Gwendolyn I, Holy Virgin Martyr Princess was a revisionist invention fabricated after her death to make her death more tragic in hindsight. It’s a pack of lies that doesn’t deserve to be paid attention to.

“That was until JMS wrote a Gwen Stacy story that was entirely fucked up.”

No. It was only partially fucked up because

Gwen was obviously not pregnant

MJ and Gwen didn’t care about Gwen’s kids

“In it, Peter learns that Gwen had an affair with Norman Osborn (the Green Goblin, AKA the guy who later murdered her) and got knocked up.”

They didn’t have an affair.

People seem to be misinformed on the definition of what the word ‘affair’ means. They use it as though it means ‘being unfaithful to your partner’. That is not the meaning of the term. An EXTRAMARITAL affair can mean that but a regular romantic/sexual affair doesn’t inherently mean there is any unfaithfulness occurring.

But it DOES have to be ongoing to some extent.

Gwen and Norman weren’t in any kind of on-going relationship. They had sex exactly once.

And during that time no unfaithfulness was occurring as Gwen was not with Peter at the time.

“Everyone apparently knew and kept it a secret.”

…er….no…I don’t know how you could even misread Sins Past to come to that conclusion.

The story is extremely explicit that Gwen and Norman kept their encounter and Gwen’s pregnancy a secret. MJ knew about it and told Peter years later. But there is nothing in the story even hinting that anyone else knew besides the three of them.

“During a point where Gwen and Peter were on the outs, she found out she was pregnant, left the country, and gave birth to the kids. These kids were then secreted away by Norman for years.

When Peter found about these kids (but not their origins) he assumed they were his kids, even though he later remembers that he and Gwen never had sex!!”

He never presumes they are his children. Again, great analytical skills there.

“What's worse, is after all was said and done, Peter later went to France to help out Gwen's daughter, who was her spitting image and the same biological age that Gwen was when Peter dated her (they aged fast, look it up) This was all an attempt to seduce Peter and he had to constantly remind himself that his feelings for her were wrong.”

It was absolutely not an attempt to seduce Peter. Sarah’s agenda only later evolved to entail that too but that wasn’t her original motive

In one of the all time best episodes of the Simpsons Homer was tempted by his co-worker Mindy. This occurred in spite of countless episodes demonstrating how much he loved Marge. Ultimately nothing more than a kiss was shared between them and he didn’t succumb to his temptations. In this scenario Peter is being confronted by someone who looks and to an extent acts identically to someone he loved and cruelly lost, someone who for a time he believed he might have a future with. This occurs not very long after he learns that his relationship with that person was at least partially a big lie as she was pregnant for most of their relationship and slept with his ultimate enemy. So he’s going to be incredibly emotionally vulnerable at this point. Sarah kissed him and he didn’t reciprocate at all. Peter if anything can be more forgiven his temptations than Homer was. And Homer was still forgivable as your actions  are what ultimately matter. Peter not only acknowledged  his feelings were wrong and coming from an emotionally confusing place but he never acted upon them either and reaffirmed his love for MJ when all was said and done. Much like Homer did to Marge after rejecting Mindy.

“Mary Jane had such a bad feeling about it, she travelled to France to check in on her hubby, and walked in on him while Gwen Jr. Was kissing Peter.”

Yeah. Because OOC writing exists dipshit. You don’t just take ANY given story as gospel FFS. What kind of pre-schooler level literary analysis is this?

“The fact that Peter was attracted to a 7 year old girl who only looked like she was in her early 20s because of a genetic disorder is super creepy.”

It is because see above about OOC writing. But by this logic the clones of Gwen were even younger. Sarah was mentally 7 but she looked just like an adult Gwen Stacy so obviously  Peter’s emotions and attractions being confused is forgivable under the circumstances.

“So you can totally understand when Mary Jane was upset about that one.”

I’m genuinely shocked this clown was able to be so sympathetic towards MJ here.

“Somewhere, a divorce lawyer just got a huge erection.”

I’m sure he would have if only the story hadn’t ended by reaffirming Peter and MJ’s love for one another.

“It Wasn't Just the Dead Girlfriend, but her Extended Family

Before we get into more of the Stacy family, let's talk about the Watson family for a minute. Mary Jane came from a broken home. An alcoholic and abusive father led to her mother taking the kids and leaving. Although he mom died her sister had two kids and was abandoned by the father. Also, she has a cousin who has an eating disorder. In a lot of these cases, Peter Parker left his wife to deal with the family drama on her own.”

No.

Peter actively helped MJ when she asked him to in ASM #291-292.

He actively helped MJ’s friend who had a drug problem when MJ asked him to.

In the recent one shot Going Big Peter seeks out Kristy when she disappears…because MJ asked him to.

Peter respected MJ and her family and would’ve helped in any way he was able if MJ aske him to.

But between supporting their family, Aunt May and protecting the city because he’s a fucking super hero  his time and abilities to help were limited. Oh and MJ didn’t ask him to.

She felt, not unjustifiably, that she  could handle it. Often MJ wishes to leave Peter as unburdened as possible if she  can handle a situation because his life is dangerous and stressful enough as is. But she knows he’s there to help if she needs it. And he would be there if she needed him.

It’ almost like they were MARRIED or something and divided up their duties appropriately or something.

This clown seems to treat ‘being Spider-Man’ as code for ‘have fun goofing off lulz’. It’s not. It’s a massive duty and higher purpose Peter takes incredibly seriously.

“Which is quite the slap in the face when he spent more time helping the Stacy family. Namely Gwen's cousins Paul and Jill and their dad.”

Because they were his friends, MJ’s friends and at times MJ asked  him to help them. Peter didn’t even like spending time with them initially because they opened up old wounds for him. He had to put the work in to hang around them.

“When they appeared in Spider-Man stories in the late 90s, Mary Jane took a back seat to whatever problems the Stacy's were having.”

No she didn’t.

SOMETIMES the problems regarding the Stacy’s happened to be the A plot. Other times they happened to be the B plot. This happened more often than not in peter Parker: Spider-Man by Mackie. But there were FOUR Spider-titles at the time so that’s more than acceptable.

But Peter never helped the Stacy’s at the expense  of Mary Jane, not unless there was a clear physical danger posed to their lives.

In Mackie/Byrne’s run MJ and Jill were endangered by the same incident and Peter prioritized saving MJ over Jill.

“You're still dealing with your miscarriage Mary Jane? Sorry, I got to talk Paul Stacy out of a hate group right now.”

Get fucked.

I’ve read PPSM #82-83 as well. In fact they were among my earliest ever comic books I re-read them several years ago.

This is yet another MASSIVE distortion of events.

Peter didn’t talk Paul out of a hate group (specifically the anti-mutant hate group the Friends of Humanity) at the expense of helping MJ deal with their miscarriage.

Peter and MJ were due to meet for a counselling session to talk about the miscarriage. However, Paul was being targeted  by a mutant who literally told Peter she was going to murder him. Peter went to prevent that from happening but a bad bout of vertigo (brought on presumably by an encounter with Morbius the Living Vampire) caused Peter to cling to a wall, his life hanging in the balance.

That’s  why he missed the therapy session that one  time.

He wasn’t goofing off. He wasn’t lecturing Paul about why racism is bad m’kay. He was trying to save his life and then save his own life.

So a quintessential example of distorting the facts and removing things from context.

“Peter Shut Her Out of Every Existential Crisis”

No he didn’t. There were multiple times he questioned if he was doing the right thing, if he was making a difference, etc and talked to her about it

Even if he did shut her out that would be conflict  which is what you fucking want in your dramatic  story

WOW! Moments of intense mental/emotional strife involve people not acting in a healthy manner, including in regards to their romantic relationships?????? Who’d have THOUGHT!

“Not only were Mary Jane's problems put on a back burner, whenever Peter had a problem, he shut MJ out.”

MJ herself understood some of her problems had to be put on a back burner for the greater good  that Spider-Man performed for the world at large.

And the times he shut her out amounted to…I don’t even know…maybe once  just prior to the Clone Saga when he was grappling with intense grief and pain and was on the verge of a mental breakdown. Then just went ahead and had  the mental breakdown.

“During their marriage, Peter had huge life-changing moments. The first was when his parents came back from the dead only to be revealed as impostors then his Aunt May suffered a life-threatening stroke.”

Yes. These were definitely the first life-changing moments that occurred after he married Mary Jane.

Being buried alive, encountering Venom, going back to school, his best friend turning to villainy and becoming a reserve Avenger certainly wouldn’t have been life changing at all.

“Spider-Man's answer? Give up on being Peter Parker and embracing the spider.”

I’ll take ‘What if grief and emotional trauma’ for 500 Alex!!!!!!!

Honest to Christ. The story makes everything clear as crystal. This is an entirely believable response to trauma, it’s just literalized because the person experiencing it lives a double life already and has super powers.

“The writers were probably going for dark and moody, but looking back at it, it was a lot of whining.”

He lived his whole life in the wake of losing his parents, then had those wounds reopened when he learned they were not dead, then gradually grew to love and trust them, was stabbed in the back by them, found out they were imposters and his parents had been dead after all, then saw them violently die right in front of him, then learned this was perpetuated by his best friend, then the woman who raised him had a stroke and fell into a coma.

That’s not WHINING, that’s an insane amount of grief and pain you fucking idiot.

No human being could cope with that amount of trauma and NOT express their pain in some form. This isn’t him complaining he missed a date or can’t get his studies done. This is his heart being ripped out and stomped on in front of him repeatedly!

“Also, he totally abandoned his wife. Which is a dick move. Hey Pete, she might be someone to support you through your recent loss.”

HE WAS HAVING A MENTAL BREAKDOWN YOU DUMBASS!

NO ONE thinks clearly or logically when they are in that kind of emotional/mental distress. He was grieving the loss of THREE parents for fuck’s sake!

“Somewhere, a grief councilor just got a huge erection.”

This shithead clearly doesn’t know the meaning of the word grief.

“Then came the Clone Saga where Peter was convinced he was actually a clone of the real Spider-Man. He was too wrapped up on the fact that his past was potentially a lie that he couldn't see the good things in his life. He was married. Had a child on the way. None of this registered with him because of all the clones around putting his past into question.”

Peter Parker’s belief system was that a clone is NOT a real human being, it is a creature that is less  than human and that in being a clone you have no real identity or right to life, you are just a freak. MJ echoes these sentiments in ASM #400.

Ben Reilly, who had all of Peter’s memories became distraught upon learning he was a clone. That occurred circa 1975 when Peter was approximately 22 years old and hadn’t finished college yet. Ben literally grieved for himself and that the memories in his head were a pretense, a life that was not his. He contemplated killing Peter and taking his life. He became borderline suicidal and anti-social. This went on for years during which he pushed himself to the very edge self-destructively.

Putting aside how the original intent was for Ben to be the REAL Peter Parker, Ben’s behaviours display what a dark and dangerous place Peter could’ve gone to had he been in Ben’s position.

The intent of the Jackal and Norman Osborn in orchestrating the Clone Saga was to shatter Peter’s sense of identity. The Jackal wanted to do that in 1975 with a 22 year old Peter. Norman however knew the blow would hurt Peter much more when he had more to lose and so delayed it until 1995 when Peter would’ve been about 27 years old, had more of a career, longer and deeper connections to his loved ones, a wife and a baby on the way.

When he finally pulled the trigger Peter had also only recently recovered from a terrible mental breakdown, lost Aunt May, been falsely accused of murder, had his sense of identity further damaged by yet more clones of himself appearing and learned that he and MJ’s baby might have serious health problems if he was a clone.

In fact MJ’s first reaction upon learning Peter was a clone was to grip her tummy and express concern for her baby. And remember she directly told him a clone isn’t a real person.

When put in context  this caused Peter to have a SECOND mental breakdown. Entirely UNDERSTANDABLY!

This wasn’t a case of appreciating all he had because from his point of view being a clone meant he’d LOST all that. That he COULDN’T have that because he was less than human and not the real person that life belonged to.

If BEN reacted that way when he believed he was a clone then logically OF COURSE Peter was going to take it much, much, much worse.

“It should also be pointed out that during this period, Mary Jane's life was at risk and she was being stalked, again. This time by a clone. However, Peter was once again nowhere to be seen.”

Oh my fucking…HE HAD BEEN ARRESTED!

He wasn’t around because he was literally incarcerated in prison. Breaking out risked exposing his identity and thus endangering MJ and the baby. He also didn’t KNOW she was being stalked. When he found out in ASM #401 he broke out of jail and sought to find her. Later when Ben offered to take his place in jail Peter went on the hunt for MJ’s stalker, his clone Kaine whom he ALSO suspected as the guy who framed him.

Gee, proactively seeking out the guy threatening your wife and who might’ve framed you?

What a shitty husband, it’s not like that’s an entirely practical consideration to take or anything.

“In Heindsight...”

Oh this outta be good

“I could go over every other moment where Peter treated his wife like crap,”

Except he rarely did and the examples you’ve brought up do not hold up to scrutiny in the slightest because you are a clown show of an analyst.

“but those are the huge ones.”

No they aren’t, see above.

“Looking back at the upset of 2007, it's clear that anyone who got mad didn't actually read any of the stories written while Peter and Mary Jane were married.”

That’s so very rich coming from this dipshit, see above.

“Even then, over the past decade there has been a plethora of great Spider-Man stories.”

That’s true.

Agent Venom by Rick Remender

Carnage Family Feud

Carnage USA

Half of Scarlet Spider by Chris Yost

Bits of Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider by Peter David

AXIS Hobgoblin

AXIS Carnage

Carnage by Gerry Conway

Silk by Robbie Thompson

Superior Foes of Spider-Man

ASM: Renew Your Vows

The issue where Flash Thompson lost his legs

The story regarding the Rhino and his girlfriend

Spider-Man 2099 by Peter David

Notice how none of that stuff focuses upon 616 Peter Parker.

Because between 2008-2018 there were no good stories focussing upon 616 Peter Parker.

At best there were mediocre stories focussing upon the pathetic man-child that was Spider-Man in name only.

“In fact, I'd even argue that Dan Slott's run on Spider-Man has contained some of the best Spider-Man stories of the past two decades.”

And you’d just further confirm yourself to be a moron who doesn’t have the first warm shit of a clue about how to analyse stories if you did.

“I can't think or a stellar Spider-Man run past 198 until Slott's run.”

ASM by JMS+Romita Junior

Sensational by Sacasa

Spec by DeMatteis+Buscema

Spec by DeMatteis+Ross

Marvel Knights by Mark Millar

Bits of Peter Parker: Spider-Man by Paul Jenkins

Hypothetically though let’s say they weren’t stellar.

They would still be OBJECTIVELY better than Dan Slott. Like who’s mothers did Michelinie, DeFalco or any of the above guys murder for you to claim Slott was better than them.

None of those guys:

Had Peter become a paparazzi photographer

Had Aunt May claim she was disappointed in Peter for not supporting her the night Uncle Ben died

Had Doc Ock try to rape Mary Jane

Created a clear cut Mary Sue to upstage Spidey in his own book

Turned Spider-Man into Diet Iron Man

Killed off a Ditko-era character for no other reason beyond a shock death. Except Mark Millar but the character was extremely minor

“Next to JMS' run, Slott has been the best Spider-Man writer in decades.”

Again, notice how he CONVENIENTLY neglected to bring up stuff from the JMS run when MJ and the marriage was written the best.

His criteria for judging MJ literally JUST included:

ASM by Michelinie run from 1989-1994

ASM by DeMatteis in 1994

Conway’s Spec/Web runs from 1988-1989

Spec #226 by DeFalco in 1995

Mackie’s PPSM run from 1997

The Mackie/Byrne run from 1999-2001

That was it.

He stated the marriage lasted between 1987-2007 but his analysis halted at 2001. He’s leaving out 6 goddam years worth of material in addition to ALL the other material he conveniently ignored before then.

“Where to Go From Here?

That raises some interesting questions. Will Peter and Mary Jane tie the knot again? It seems like Marvel is marrying characters off again (Colossus and Kitty Pryde as well as Gambit and Rogue) so that's promising.

Another is the promising thing is that the alternate reality series Renew Your Vows has been doing very well.

The last point is the main reason why they nixed the marriage to begin with: Needing a Spider-Man younger readers can relate with.”

The main reason they nixed it was because Quesada was butthurt Gwen died in 1973 and that MJ got to marry him instead.

“For the past number of years they have been promoting the hell out of Miles Morales, the "Ultimate" Spider-Man. They have been grooming him to be the young Spidey that they want for younger fans.”

Maybe don’t use the term ‘grooming’ in the context of a teenage character there buddy.

“While that doesn't mean Peter and MJ are destined to get married again, hopefully they will allow Peter to at least grow up a little.”

I see.

Marriage = bad because it makes him unrelatable to the kids. But also this dipshit wants Peter to ‘grow up a little’…which is what he had done by marrying MJ in the first place.

“However, let me say this: Doing what's expected doesn't necessarily make for a good story, it's the unexpected.”

Why don’t you ask Star Wars and Game of Thrones fans what they think about that buddy?

“That's what made Slott's run on Spider-Man so great.”

That’s true. Nobody expected Slott would have Doc Ock masturbate in Peter’s body. Nobody expected him to drag out our suffering for as long as he did. Nobody expected he’d invoke such a juvenile idea as Norman Osborn becoming carnage.

“Let's hope Nick Spencer continues that tradition.’

Fuck the unexpected. Just give me competency.

[archtroop]

So just binged Titans (2018) on Netflix and -

I want to say stuff. Lets start with the basics. I’m not a hardcore DC comics fan. I’m your occasional TV viewer who watched Teen Titans, and loved the Batman cartoons. I’m your ordinary Joe. That would mean, for me, this show is my introduction into these characters. I’m viewing these stories as manifestations of archetypes, I am not familiar with “classic” characterizations, or “the right way of this one to talk” and so on.

I enjoyed the show a lot. Like, I literally binged the whole two seasons in the expense of some very cherished sleep time. It sucked me in.

And I became very curious about the backgrounds of the characters, and I looked some of it up (fucked up stuff! good!) and I was interested in maybe some reviews or hardcore fans sating their... say.

And. Guys. Guys.

So much negativity? Over... it being too violent?... Too dark...? Too... new?

I watched this show right now with virgin eyes. And I have to say that, 

A. Dick Grayson of this Titans is the definition of “Dick Move”, and is literally trope co founder. And I love it. GO GRAY MORALITY GO. Also his introduction was. GOOD STUFF. I am rooting for this broken brain. His choices and inner struggles were very intriguing to watch, also his choices, morals and oh overall, a beautiful rendition of an adult, a grownup person that comes to terms with some very fucked up implicaitons.

B. For all the reviewers trashing Raven, calling her OOC and HotTopicRaven, guys, F U I loved her, I loved Teen Titans Raven as a kid, and this one is 16 and goddammit she is allowed to be emo and rock her style. And that she does. The “possession” thing she has is creepy cringe AWESOME STUFF. She rocks it, The actress ROCKS IT. Her whole journey was so engaging. TEAM RAVEN!

C. I was not familiar with Hawk and Dove, but I’m here rooting for them. Like full on SHIP THAT SHIP. I want them to be together, and I don’t care they broke my heart and then patched it up and I’m here for this couple.

D. Gar. OH PRECIOUS GAR, thanQ for righting the wrongs of decades of werepeople by transforming in and out while naked. I’m just so so grateful for this, but also, SO SO likable and the amount of empathy that was dragged out of me for the poor dude, I just want more screen time of him doing whatever he wants to do. I will literally watch an episode of Gar making various veggie shakes. I would. But also I want him to have more plot. Like, yesterday.

E. Kory/Starfire. Whoever trashes her costumes, go sleep on some legos. She rocks it, the actress rocks it, SHE ROCKS THAT RING ON HER LONG BEAUTIFUL FINGERS, and if anyone even dares to oink anything about her being black as apologetic, I say F U, she literally ABSORBS SUN POWER in this version, that melanin is rightfully hers. Also if you want to call me racist have fun, but I love the idea that genetics are applied with scientific purposes rather then, just, um, representation fodder launching pad. Fuck this shit, SHE IS THE SUN, GORGEOUS SUN. I love her discovery of self, maybe a hasty one. but damn poignant. I enjoyed her way of going around not remembering who she is. I root for her and her upcoming clash with her sister.

D. Donna. I kinda felt she will be in and then out and I didn’t really get attached to her BUT she was introduced as this very independent and firmly grounded person, and I was so happy to see her keeping her ground, good for her.

E. Jason Todd. Now here is a surprise. What a bomb of character that one. Now after doing minimal research about the fucked up origins of that one, I wasn’t surprised to see how he is probably the most twist and broken mess of them all. And he is the embodiment of DC’s wrongs, so it seems. This one is the ghost that Corp couldn’t get rid of or something. This one carries so so much nuance. But what really got me is how ensemble DarkHorse this one is. The actor is amazing. It reminds me how Dylan O’Brien of Teen Wolf out-shined the ever-living crap out of his co-stars cast back in the day. This one has similar energy. I literally squeezed on my couch into a little bulb of fright and pity when he had his outburst in front of Rose. His violence is so spot on brutal - I mean, while Dick’s violence is vicious, this one is brutal and I’m here for this. Also, his very introduction? Shivers down my spine and that feeling of “shit he had it REAL BAD as a kid. THE WORST”.

E.02 I... don’t care for Rose. Right now anyway. Maybe later on with her half brother as her copilot in S3? We’ll see. For now...? meh Sorry. 

F. Conner. From the very moment the name Superman was dropped I was like, there is going to be a supersomething. Now I am not familiar with all the comics and I barely remember Teen Titans, but I am on tumblr, so. OK his origins are creepy AF, also intriguing, and Lex, you obsessed fucker. GOOD. But then Jason was falling of the building and it was literally 2+2 “oh Conner is gonna save the poor soul”, but oh no they had to go full-on “catch you as you fall Lois Lane style” but except no flying up - instead crashing on a car. This character, just broke out of a laboratory, had a random journey, and was alive for like two days in total just to be at the right time at the right place to save Jason falling from that building? ?? What am I suppose to do with this information??? I mean, Someone DID THIS.  And I mean, that is kinda spot on.  The writers should be VERY CAREFUL NOW with that, coz it can be either beautiful stuff or a very gruesome publicity fodder. 

G. THEME. This Titans is. HORRIFICALLY IN YOUR FACE OOZES DARK TRAUMA AND CHILD ABUSE. While watching it I lost count of either abused/used children and crappy fathers. Dick is introduced while investigating a child abuse case. Raven was literally conceived so her demonic father could pass through her into this world. AND SO ON. And that literally includes Bruce and Dick themselves under that category, as the bad fathers. GOOD STUFF. You should really meditate on that. The amount of usage of children under the hands of adults in all the verity of forms, from sexual assault and rape and whatever violence to selling for profit (Conner is brainwashed and has a bid put on him, as a soldier for sale. He is a few weeks old.) is shockingly overwhelming. Like, this is THE THEME. Obviously this is a Found Family Trope kind of show, but oh my GOD they all are running from is just like, I dunno a mass of horny catholic priests? 

IN CONCLUSION

Titans may have a messy output with many plots but it is not that hard to follow. It’s not just darker and edgier, it’s just NOT THAT COMIC. This seems to be a show that might tackle some of the darkest stuff media doesn’t outright... tackles. It’s more then just “oh crap daddy issues”. It has the actual feeling of  “I will not be avenged. How do I move forward. Who needs me, who do I need to heal?” If it plays it right, it can be a thing of beauty. Or, if it will hear to all those negative shallow reviews, it will go crashing down in shamble. 

Signed, a satisfied, average viewer.