#or even a decade in ashara's case

[tethys-the-aquatic-sea-godness]

Age accurate Rebellion Lords:

Arthur Dayne; 23 years old at the time of his death in 283 AC*

Benjen Stark; 16 years old at the end of the Rebellion in 283 AC*

Brandon Stark; 20 years old at the time of his death in 282 AC

Eddard Stark; 20 years old at the end of the Rebellion in 283 AC

Howland Reed; 18 years old at the end of the Rebellion in 283 AC*

Jaime Lannister; 17 years old at the end of the Rebellion in 283 AC

Oberyn Martell; 26 years old at the end of the Rebellion in 283 AC*

Rhaegar Targaryen; 24 years old at the time of his death in 283 AC

Robert Baratheon; 21 years old at the end of the Rebellion in 283 AC

Stannis Baratheon; 19 years old at the end of the Rebellion in 283 AC

*exact date of birth is uncertain

[atopvisenyashill]

everyone’s been talking about “what if lyanna had survived” and to be honest my stance is “ned is forced to go to war with robert.”

everything we know about Lyanna’s willfulness and “wolf blood” makes me severely doubt she would be willing to marry Robert OR be parted from her son after Ned rescued her from the Tower of Joy. It’s not just that Robert’s idealism of her and temper will be much worse after the war, but that she has been through hell trying to get away from him, and she likely understands he’s now a threat to her son. At odds with that is the fact that short of Lyanna publically humiliating him or a maester declaring she can’t have more kids, Robert is not gonna put her aside. her best bet is that she can’t have more kids bc it frees her from Robert. however, there’s still the problem of Jon.

Because again - i don’t think it’s likely Lyanna would want to be parted from him! I know nobles often don’t raise their bastards but the one two punch of “a war accidentally started in part because Lyanna ran away and had Jon” and “her brother and father died attempting to rescue her and all the Targs are dead now too” PLUS the possibility that she knows something about why Rhaegar wanted a third child, it just makes me highly, HIGHLY doubtful she is letting him out of her sight. And while Robert can be talked into not murdering babies, Ned is not likely to be in the frame of mind to talk Robert into not murdering his nephew.

And that’s best case ie “Lyanna can’t have more kids and the lords pressure Robert to take another wife” - which, I think is kinda likely, honestly? Howland is dedicated to Lyanna (and I think Ashara and the Daynes know All About Jon, but you don’t even need their help, really) and would be more than willing to help cover up shit, as we already know. If Ned says they should tell Robert it was a stillbirth and then they can get married, and Lyanna says “I’m STILL not marrying your dickhead bestie, Ned” I do think Ned is going to try to get her out of it. He’s already sympathetic to her issues pre-kidnapping, adding all this trauma on yhere, he’s gonna give it The Old Eddard Try which means hardcore and secretive - just have a Maester declare her incapable. Howland (or Ashara) offer to hide Jon while they deal with breaking the engagement, and maybe Lyanna is okay with this initially, but eventually she’s turning to Ned and going “i want my fuckin kid back” and the Daynes/Howland just can’t have this random Stark looking baby running around forever, someone is gonna find out and then…what lyanna hides in essos with jon until robert chills out? they stay in winterfell while robert sulks in anger in KL and hope he doesn’t realize Jon is her’s? it’s risky as fuck.

and that’s IF he’s talked into giving her up. again, i think it’s unlikely ned rocks up with lyanna with zero plan to get her back to winterfell safe with him, but if they can’t convince robert to set her aside, lyanna is stuck in the capital, parted from her baby, forced to have robert’s baby, and that’s not a situation lyanna is gonna take lying down. feels less likely benjen goes to the wall in this scenario; he may very well opt to stay with lyanna to protect her, and the north has a bigger presence in KL to watch over their girl, but Tywin is still there jockeying for power and LF is still going to show up wanting to fuck things for his grand plan, AND that’s not to mention Varys. So many variables and none of them are good for Lyanna.

i just feel, no matter what scenario, lyanna is not marrying robert nor giving up jon and in this specific case, a grief stricken and desperately relieved ned will fight for her. if ned can get robert to see sense and set her aside, maybe after a decade or two, lyanna and jon can come home from essos, or ned can have jon “foster” with lyanna and howland where robert can’t easily reach them. maybe lyanna gains a sort of elaena targaryen reputation, where the dubiously consensual relationship she had with a targ that resulted in a son is seen as a thing of a past, a silly mistake a young girl made, and she marries later in life to a man of her choosing. or maybe not, because elaena didn’t have viserys plumm and the waters kids hanging around her at every moment while lyanna will still have jon around. and a jon raised in such a volatile environment is very likely to be protective of his mother.

idk. it’s complicated and sad, is the answer. as they say in the books, ned loved jon’s mother very much. he has faults, and he has very big issues with misogyny that are sometimes glossed over, but i do believe that when pushed, ned would have fought for lyanna’s independence after the tower of joy, and it’s going to bring him into conflict with robert big time. all his anger over robert’s approval of the slaughter of elia, rhaenys, and aegon are going to collide with his habit of sacrificing his honor to save his family much sooner than it does in the books.

[rainofaugustsith]

ETA since some apparently don't get this: I will not debate anyone who reblogs to argue with me on this issue; I just block and ignore. If you like the Jedi, cool, do it in your own space and leave me out of it. If you can’t do that, I’ll help out by blocking you. If you don't like that the source material shows the Jedi removing kids from their families and cutting them off permanently while indoctrinating them into lifetime religious and military service, complain to Lucasfilm, not me, because that is what was written. ***

Ah, I see the "oh noes, the Jedi don't kidnap children, that's all mean genocide apologist talk" is making the rounds again. Sigh.

The Jedi conscript kids into their program as toddlers and babies. This is not debated anywhere in the media. As to the ethics of that, no, they may not have put kids under their arms and run away with them, but it can't be denied that they did conscript those kids, train them for Jedi combat and expect them to serve the Republic for the rest of their lives, while denying them attachment, contact and community outside the Jedi Order.

That's not propaganda. It's what we see in Star Wars media. I'd like to call attention to the fact that a major Jedi character in the entire Star Wars franchise, Luke Skywalker, had issues with this aspect of the Jedi Order and specifically changed it. Is he "Sith propaganda" too?

Exhibit A: Luke Skywalker's New Jedi Order specifically cited the lack of attachment and methods of the old Jedi as problems. Luke's Jedi were allowed to keep all attachments and ties to their families.

This is the old AU, but a substantial body of work, literally decades of books, revolve around Luke's New Jedi Order. Also, in the Jedi Path (my bad, I called it Book of the Jedi, sorry) which IS Disney canon, Luke makes several notations about "my order won't run like this, it will be completely voluntary, and I think attachments are good."

Exhibit B: The Jedi Path published as Disney canon as the collected thoughts of various Jedi says, among other things:

1. The Jedi absolutely were thought of as kidnappers by some, to the point where there were organized groups in the Republic who opposed them.

2. There was Republic law that allowed them to take children from their families if the families didn't want it.

3. The issue that the children didn't consent was dismissed as them being chosen and consenting because they were Force sensitive.

4. The Book of the Jedi also notes specifically that attachment to birth families needed to be disavowed, which is something Luke Skywalker objected to in the footnotes.

In various Star Wars media we also see:

1. Numerous characters such as Ahsokha and Ashara Zavros who say they have had no contact with their families for decades.

2. Jaesa Willsaam's family being told they should not expect to hear from their daughter again.

3. Shmi not being allowed to remain in touch with Anakin and actually rebuffed when she tried to call him at the Jedi temple.

4. Anakin being told by Yoda that if harm to someone is troubling him, drop the attachment and stop caring.

5. Baby Ludi. This was a case where a Force sensitive baby was taken during wartime and given a new name. When her mother was found to be alive she exhausted all resources going to Coruscant to try to get her child back. The Jedi refused. She sued, and Republic courts sided with the Jedi. The Jedi refused to allow her to even see her daughter again.

Yes, the Jedi did originally think the baby was orphaned, but upon finding out that wasn't the case and that the mother was in fact desperate for her child to be returned, they did not return her. Nor did they restore her birth name.

6. In the original trilogy, Obi-Wan and Yoda expect Luke to give up attachments by a) leaving Han and Leia to die on Bespin; b) deliberately not sharing that Leia and Luke were siblings until their hand was forced; c) insisting that Luke needed to put aside any familial feelings to kill Darth Vader.

Luke succeeds in the original trilogy because he refuses to give up his attachments. He calls Vader 'father' and pulls on that thread of attachment until Vader can't resist it - and does the right thing.

7. Yes, Jedi do keep their own cultural traditions but they are still not largely in touch with family or their communities as a whole. As to keeping their own names, tell that to Ludi Billane, Depa Billaba and Sar Labooda.

8. "But the kids and parents consent." Okay, Qui-Gon asked Anakin if he wanted to be a Jedi. Did he sit down and explain it meant he would be bound to a strict moral code for the rest of his life, would not be allowed any attachments or family contact, and would have to sacrifice any of his friends for the greater good, or fight for the Republic regardless if he agreed in their cause?

And even if he had, do we routinely let nine year olds conscript themselves into lifetime military or religious service? Or do we recognize that they should perhaps not make major life decisions at that juncture? Moreover, since the Jedi recruit toddlers and babies do you think they have even the slightest amount of comprehension at that point as to how this will affect the rest of their lives?

But Shmi said yes. Yes, she did. It was offering her kid a ticket out of being enslaved on Tatooine forever, what do we really think she was going to say? If Qui-Gon had said "I'm going to buy your freedom, and your son's, and help you start a new life" would she have made the same choice? Yes, other parents said yes. How much were they advised that this was the safest way for their child, the ONLY way for their child?

9. "But they can leave at any time!" Mhmm. Now how far will they get without any money, possessions, professional connections, experience with living outside the Jedi Order, etc? Yeah maybe they are lucky and can reclaim an inheritance like Dooku but maybe they end up like Ahokha living hand to mouth in poverty on the lower levels of Coruscant.

None of this is "Sith propaganda." It's what the writers of Star Wars actually described. If a fan wants to think this level of separating children from their families and attachments is acceptable, and justifiable nothing I say will change that. Appreciate Star Wars as you want. If some of us think that it's one reason the Jedi kind of suck and had very harmful practices (and let's use critical thinking here and realize that saying "the Jedi kind of suck" is not in any way agreeing with genocide, erasure, slavery or fascism, or similar practices found in other factions), that should also be fine. Don't like that? Such is life.

[agentrouka-blog]

1) I don't think R was prophecy obsessed. Grrm deliberately gives only sufficient info and I've always read these characters having parallels & traits of characters that are still alive. I would believe jon has both rhaegar & ned in him- jon is dutiful, takes responsibilities of NW & showjon takes threat of WW seriously. But he also has romantic relationships, friendships- a life outside of work. J is brooding. R being melancholic & working on a looming threat doesn't make him depressed or

2) or unhinged or obsessed or someone who's incapable of love(especially romantic). Bran got the subliminal message & that's all that happens behind the scenes. He might have known everything along with the 'father generation'. I am sure R explained his action to elia & oberyn after the tourney & told them what the starks were upto. Why would he tell her family( after one warning) when they themselves have initiated an act of war by going along with wedding- B was going to marry cat & L was

3) was highly likely getting married to Bobby immediately after B/C wedding. He's wouldn't take her KL- A would kill her(for being mystery knight) & also he was crazy in any case. Remember R is indeed attracted to her at this point of time(not love) & he doesn't want her to die. Also he's good man. He just want her as a hostage. D is the only place he could take her as his in-laws(who knows about STAB) will understand. But they fall in love- it solves L 's want to get rid of bob, R's want

4)R's want of 3rd child,L's protect from king,Stark help in overthrowing A. It will successfully break the STAB alliance. Bob won't be N's BFF once he knows that R&L were consensual. Stark-baratheon friendship goes to gutter when bob knows L betrayed him. STAB is not only there to rid westeros of targs but also to put Bob & L as king & queen. with the candidate for queen being now preggers with R's child, the starks & by affiliation tullys would be out of the alliance. Sure they will be

5) angry but will have to accept it coz L has final say. Bob might rebel but starks won't. R will give concessions to both. The only problem here being the martells who i believe had their own political ambitions. I always thought sansa/jon/dany triangle having similiarities with cat/ned/ashara & lya/rhae/elia. with jonsa being equal to R/L. Maybe arthur was the father of 2 kids & R was setting them aside. Maybe not. Maybe R/L were walking away from the throne & they planned on living in essos.

Hi Rhaegar anon!

As promised, I am responding to your ask. But as warned, I do very much disagree with a number of things.

First up, this is not how politics or betrothals work.

Rhaegar has no right to dictate to the Starks who they can marry. (Not within the universe of ASOIAF.)  Even if he did - which he does not - he cannot do it by, essentially, flipping them all off at a big house party.

The Targs may be the monarchs, but the monarch owes proper procedure to his vassals. And Rhaegar is not even the monarch. He is the crown prince. He has absolutely no basis for demanding anything of them in this way.

The betrothal between Catelyn and Brandon, which has been public knowledge half a decade or more, and the one between Robert and Lyanna, do not constitute any kind of misconduct on behalf of the Warden of the North.

Rhaegar, may not like it, he may correctly surmise that a political block opposed to the Targs is forming up. But that doesn’t mean he can just dictate that they drop their plans out of nowhere. A betrothal is a holy, official commitment, and not subject to casual whims.

Second, handing a flower crown to Lyanna Stark is not communication. It’s the equivalent of mysteriously winking at someone in a crowded room and then walking away, expecting them to read your mind and simply obey. This is not politics. It is insanely entitled, arbitrary, tyrannical and disrespectful nonsense. Just assuming that Brandon is somehow supposed to even understand what Rhaegar supposedly meant by that is the height of folly, let alone the expectation that House Stark should now base their personal politics on this vague gesture. It is nonsense.

Consequently, not suddenly calling off the planned betrothals most certainly does not constitute an “act of war”. He has absolutely zero justification for any kind of “retaliation” because they have done absolutely nothing wrong.

Third, Aerys doesn’t know that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. No one officially knows, outside of Lyanna, those who helped her, Howland Reed, and presumably Rhaegar who found her. If Aerys finds out, it is because Rhaegar tells him, which would be his own choice. So, yes, he could absolutely have brought a kidnapped hostage as a “guest” to KL, and she would have been as safe as anyone else in the presence of Mad Aerys.Heck, he could have taken her to Dragonstone into his own household with his father’s consent if he wanted her extra safe. Less chance of escape (because island) and obviously he doesn’t care about insulting his own wife, so why not?

Fourth, the point of a hostage is leverage. Otherwise, it’s simply an abduction for unknown purposes. If Rhaegar wanted to keep Lyanna a hostage to keep the Starks in line, the absolute key is to communicate this. She becomes Theon Greyjoy, essentially. Except the Starks haven’t actually rebelled (yet), so it really is an act of tyranny on behalf of the monarchy. This makes Rhaegar the very opposite of a good man. Good men don’t kidnap teenagers to subjugate their vassals, who have done nothing wrong as of yet. But at least it would be logical. However, hiding her and not telling them what he took her for is illogical to the extreme. They are naturally angry, demand answers and escalate rather than diffuse any hostility toward the monarchy. Even if Aerys hadn’t murdered dozens of highborn nobles when confronted with Rhaegar’s actions (because Rhaegar wasn’t dealing with the fall-out), it would have created a big political stand-off with no easy solution. Because he failed to telegraph “Heads-up, I took your wolf maid hostage, so don’t rebel, kthxbye”.

Fifth, this erases who Lyanna is. The assumption that Lyanna would be fine with all this assumes she has absolutely zero loyalty to her family at all, and ignores why she did not want to marry Robert in the first place. (He is a philanderer who fathers bastards.). It also erases her dislike of abuse of power, and her sense of responsibility as a Stark, both of which made her the Knight of the Laughing Tree in the first place. That girl values honor and justice. Your theory reduces her to an empty-headed bag of hormones.

Sixth, it does nothing to dismantle the STAB alliance because it confirms all their fears of tyranny. I would say it is highly unlikely that the STAB alliance would falter in the face of Lyanna revealing that she is In Love with her kidnapper who took her in order to force obedience from four different Houses. He still demonstrated the very quality that makes the STAB alliance form in the first place! The Targaryen’s invaded Westeros and forced its kingdoms into submission with the threat of dragonfire. Now that the dragons are gone, unrest stirs. The best way to encourage that unrest is to act like a tyrant. Lyanna being an idiot doesn’t change that. It only makes her a hostage either way. And a girl despised by her countrymen.

Seventh, I sincerely doubt their main aim was to place Robert and Lyanna on the throne. That’s only what the rush-job of the Rebellion accomplished. But we know what the North truly wants, because that’s what happens the moment the Iron Throne is not occupied by Ned’s bestie: Independence. If Rickard, Hoster, and Jon had any sense of vision at all, they were going to work a long game for a much bigger reward than seating a hot-tempered stormlord and a Northern maiden on the spiky chair.

Eigth, ignoring all that, Dorne will absolutely hate all of this. They handed Elia to the Targaryens to be queen and mother of the royal heirs, and Rhaegar either placing his mistress and her (legitimized) bastard next to her, or - worse - making Lyanna his second wife, is a huge affront. It’s not like the Targs haven’t had a devastating civil war happening over the succession before. Rhaegar’s actions are an insult to the Throne’s biggest ally. This insult is not erased by headcanons about Elia/Arthur. If there was any doubt to the legitimacy of Aegon or Rhaenys, Elia’s head could be on a spike for treason. A much simpler way of getting a new wife and a passel of new “heads of the dragon” than kidnapping a girl and starting a war. It’s simply not happening. This problem is not a tiny problem. It’s another mark against thetrustworthiness of the entire Targaryen monarchy. Dorne can now join STAB and House Lannister in hating the Targs, and I am not sure the Reach is suddenly going to come down with a case of undying loyalty.

Ninth, if Rhaegar and Lyanna were just going to hop off to Essos together... why all the fuss over the STAB alliance in the first place? If Rhaegar doesn’t care, then he doesn’t care, right? No, this is out of the question.

Tenth, all of this still ignores that canonically, Rhaegar and the Targaryen monarchy very very very much cared about the prophecy. Just saying “he wasn’t prophecy-obsessed” doesn’t change that he cared about it. And likely a great deal. GRRM deliberately communicates this information in the books, and separately from the “love story” version of events as related by characters who don’t know about the prophecy. Aemon lets us know that Rhaegar clearly connected his children to the prophecy and it seamlessly fits with Dany’s “There must be one more” vision in the HOTU. Aemon is a much more credibly source than anyone else.

Faith in the prophecy provides an explanation for why he was hesitant to remove Aerys from power before lining up his three heads, because de-throning your insane king-father might get messy and distract Rhaegar from scattering his Very Important Dragon Sperm, and it also explains why he thought the Rebellion would somehow work out once Lyanna was pregnant, because obviously they were all chosen by prophecy and would prevail. Maybe he even thought he could get the STABs on his side somehow, if he explained himself and dethroned Aerys, or maybe he really thought simply defeating them in battle would restore enough order for him to assume power peacefully and make his War for the Dawn preparations in the aftermath of the Rebellion.

Either way, he acted in an irresponsible and entitled, uncommunicative and reckless way that betrays a disregard for the concerns of anyone else, or beyond anything but his own convictions. Even his own children. No matter his motivations, his actions very very predictably led to chaos and war. And that is not even counting the ways he publicly humiliated his wife, and likely kidnapped and even raped a teenager.

No matter what way you turn it, Rhaegar was not “a good man”.

[shining-m00nlight]

So I read this post today and it said:

In a modern AU where Ashara is alive, Ned would never be with Catelyn.

Just saying.

And I did not tag the person or repost it because I don't want them to feel attacked eventhough I feel attacked by their post😂

So reasons for Ned to be with Ashara that we actually now about.

She was hot

Yeah that's kind of it, because we don't know anything about Ashara. She could have been for all we know a mean, dump person who's just hot. She just has a Fandom created persona. (That I actually like (if it's not used to justify anti Cat) but is not necessarily the most creative one in my opinion)

Now comparing this to why Ned should be with Cat

She is hot (she is nor necessarily called the most beautiful woman of them all but people often talk about her beauty and that's the Milf Version of her)

her hair is amazing

she is strong

she has a strong sense of family

she is smart

THEY CANONLY LOVE EACHOTHER AND HAVE A STRONG MARRIAGE

They managed to build this strong marrige on a foundation that was bad (Jon/Jons mother/secrets/being pushed in a role you weren't prepared for/being strangers)

imagine what would happen when they would build a marrige on a better one

There are probably even more reason that are supported by source material but this is a spontaneous post

You can ship what you like but I don't like it when people dismiss 15 years of marriage for "yeah Ned thought this girl was hot once more than a decade ago and wanted to dance with her" With "just saying"

If I would create a epic/tragic Lovestory with every person I thought was hot at 18 I'd have a problem.

And I know it says modern AU but Ashara (Fandom created version) is always this really wild person that takes life as it goes and likes to party and goes on adventures and doesn't like to stay at one place. That just doesn't fit with Neds personality. He is a calm person that likes his solitude and staying where he is/belongs to.

In a modern Au Ned and Ashara would want different things in life, things that are not compatible with each other.

I actually think in modern AU Ned/Cat would be even stronger because there (in most cases) would not be the Jon thing between them. And there would be more healthy communication between them about topics that in the timeperiod of ASOIF/GOT where more "hush hush" and "let's not talk about it"

[tomakeitbeautifultolive]

Hi, I first heard of N+A=D from your page. Ever since then I was wandering through internet to find more evidence on this theory. But the only thing I cannot digest is the lack of any concern in Ned's PoV. Honestly the only way it could've worked is with Ned not knowing about Ashara's child. Maybe Ashara was angry with him , or she wanted the best for him and spare hum the pain, either way she asked her family to keep the existence of the child's alive status a secret.Maybe that's (1)

(2) why Dany was sent away. Because Ashara wanted to keep her knowledge away from Ned. It's not you or me we are talking about here, it's Ned Stark the most honourable man in the entire solar system! In any way I can't possibly imagine any other scenario in which Ned doesn't even think about his former love and child that is alive. What do you think???

___________________________________________________

Hello! Thanks so much for the question! I definitely lean "Ned has no idea" - and that it's actually Jon Arryn who has been working behind the scenes with Ashara on his (unwitting) behalf.

While there are a few fishy things about Ned (like his weird connection to the Searlord of Braavos) that raise some questions, based on what we get in his POV - it's safest to assume that if he thought he was the father of Ashara's child, that that child died in stillbirth and Ashara, in suicide. Which is exactly why, over a decade later, he's not actively thinking of either in his POVs (I like to use myself as an example - my first boyfriend died in a car accident a little over a decade ago. I almost never think of him. So to me, it's not weird that Ned isn't dwelling on the death of his first love because he has a wife and children and the whole North and now all of the Seven Kingdoms to concern himself with).

Even people who don't believe this theory tend to speculate whether or not Ashara faked her death. Many people assume she is Septa Mordane. To which I always wonder... but why? For a casual reader who believes Ashara faked her death, what is the motivation there?

Meanwhile, I have my theory: Ashara faked her death and the death of her child to protect not just the man she loved, but the 'prince that was promised', Jon. After all, the Daynes have a heavy hand in Jon's birth, as detailed with Arthur guarding the prince and Starfall lending their milkmaid. As a lady of the court under Elia Martell and in close proximity to Rhaella, with Jon Arryn's help, it would be quite easy to fabricate a different origin story for the baby girl who donned very prominent Dayne features - which so happen to look Targaryen.

And before I get any retort about what a terrible idea that was? Yes, I get that Daenerys and Viserys ended up "on the run" at some point - but that was never the plan. Many, many children across Westeros are fostered with other families (Ned and his brother Brandon included, might I add). Daenerys was always meant to live a nice, safe, relatively cushioned life until she made it back to Dorne to wed Quentyn Martell (the pact signed by Oberyn, himself - who, based on context clues, happens to be a friend to Ashara). While Robert would’ve loved the death of the Targaryen children, it was Jon Arryn who protected them for years and years, as confirmed by Renly. So long as Jon Arryn lived, Daenerys was safe.

I'm absolutely willing to bet that prior to Brandon's death, many things were supposed to unfold differently. Such as Ned marrying Ashara. But the Rebellion happened, and Ned was forced to marry his brother's intended upon his death.

While readers have the impression that Ned is 'the most honorable man in the solar system', remember that those across Westeros had seemingly no problem buying these rumors about Ned and Ashara (Harwin, Cersei, etc) as well as his having fathered a bastard (Jon). (I mean, Cersei even tried to seduce Ned at one point!). To me, Ned is one of the most misunderstood characters in the series! Here’s why:

Honor has two different meanings, really. For modern readers, we relate it to integrity and morality, but from what I can glean from Westerosi expectations, it's more about prestige and respect, honoring one's king or duty first, even above what's morally right (that's why you see so many characters, such as the Cleganes, rewarded with gold and prestige for heinous, immoral acts).

Consider Ned's honor again while reading this quote from Aemon to Jon:

Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?

Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name. "He would do whatever was right," he said… ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. "No matter what."

Jon hesitates. He wants to believe his father's honor is unimpeachable. Yet what he says is that Eddard would do what was right - and that's true. Ned did not choose the honorable path when he chose to save Jon's life that day - he did what was right:

Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman's love?

This hint is twofold - that there isn’t anything special about Ned, he’s subject to the same emotions as any man, especially when it comes to a certain woman’s love... and that there is a clear difference between honor and love, that they do not go hand-in-hand as many readers/viewers assume.

What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms... or the memory of a brother's smile?

Duty would've been to Ned’s king - handing over his nephew upon his discovery. Duty would've been telling his wife the truth. Instead, the most important thing to Ned - even above his own life - was the love and memory of his sister. Which is why, even if he's completely oblivious to his bastard daughter's identity - he cannot stomach the death of another innocent child at the hands of his king. He knows what will happen to Jon if ever the secret comes out, because he had witnessed it with Aegon and Rhaenys. Likewise, the life of one innocent child - Daenerys - means more to him than does his honor, which is why he quits his position as Hand. Ned is not the pinnacle of honor nor has he ever been, but he strives to be the pinnacle of morality and justice, often at the cost of his honor and respect.

I'll leave you with this, as I might've just had a tiny little revelation. When first asked about whether or not the books would end differently from the show, GRRM decides to give us a strange comparison:

"Book or show, which will be the 'real' ending? It's a silly question. How many children did Scarlett O'Hara have?"

This subtle suggestion might actually insinuate something huge - that perhaps a certain character will have more children in the books than their show counterpart... 🤔 Such an insignificant detail in one series could result in shockwaves in another.

Combining that with GRRM's latest comments about the books having a different ending, it's certainly food for thought! And, assuming Daenerys is Ned's bastard daughter, this force of power that uses her moral compass to guide her all the way back home to save the world... what would the perfect ending be for such a character? Becoming queen or going mad? Somehow, I don’t think so.

Considering there has been much more foreshadowing for Daenerys pining for a simple life and for love rather than queenship or madness (🙄)... I still say her perfect ending is to do what her father, in this case, never could - choosing love over honor.

Thanks again for the question, it’s been my honor to indulge in my favorite theory once again! 🌠🐺

[sanjuno]

Game of Thrones, Jon snow just trolling everyone

(3/32 SI Promptfest)

By the Old Gods, I really was ridiculously pretty for a man. Staring at my reflection in mydressing table mirror, I tried to make an ugly face and only managed to lookpouty. Ech. I was conventionally attractive in my life before this one, but Ageon ‘Jon Snow’ Targaryen-Stark was supernaturally good looking.

It was actually a little upsetting. I was aestheticallypleasing, yes, but not at all my own type. If I had to be reborn as a man in this hope-forsaken hellworld, theleast the old gods could have done is fashioned me a meatsuit that catered tomy personal tastes.

I spared a wistful thought for the Mormonts, with theirstrong backs and lovely broad shoulders, before I dismissed the images with aresigned sigh. Nope, it was all dainty Targargyen features and the rangyleanness of the Starks for me.

Fuckers.

Grimacing one last time at my reflection, I tied back myhair and finished getting ready for the day. Stuck as I was in Winterfell andwith no desire to draw unwanted attention, my ability to influence the eventsto come was limited to the Starks. Which was, in my humble opinion, more than enough.

People always underestimated the Starks. It was baffling. Ina feudal society like Westeros there was nothingmore dangerous than a loyal people with a loyal lord. In Robert’s Rebellion, only the Northern forces had answered infull when the Banners were called to Arms.

The North answered without hesitation when the Stark inWinterfell called for them. The King in the North, and the North remembered it.A King uncrowned, a King untitled, but a true King nevertheless. Torrhen Starkmay have bent his knee… but he had notbared his throat.

Winterfell was a fortress of ice, untouched by sun or flame.I knew there were weaknesses, cracks in the foundation left behind by thewildfires of Robert’s Rebellion. If left alone those fissures they would bringdestruction, like melt-water under snowcaps just waiting to bring half amountain down on unsuspecting heads.

Good thing I was a manipulative little shit, and I knewexactly how to start doing away with those weaknesses. In this case I needed tostart at the top.

No one had done quite as much damage to the Stark’s goodfortunes as Catelyn Tully, and so the Lady Stark’s attitude would need alittle… adjustment. Which I was morethan willing to do now that Rickon was safely born. If she went nuts again andneeded to be removed I still had a full complement of Stark Wargs to advise andinfluence for the sake of preserving all life on the planet.

Wishywashy fishwives, blech. The only useful thing she evermanaged to do was make more Starks. After living with her prejudiced,thoughtless cruelty for thirteen years I was more than ready to break herinflexible little mind in half. Which was my plan for today. Best get a move onthat.

I grinned at my reflection in the mirror, knowing I wasdressed no differently than the rest of the Stark children and loving how muchit pissed my dear Auntie off. There was no chance of Catelyn letting me speakwith Father without listening in. Perfect.

Now if only my resting bitch face would start beingintimidating again instead of sullen, that would be just grand. Stupid prettyboy face.

/…/

“Your nameday is coming up.” Robb mentioned, just as he hadevery day for the last handful. My dear Auntie’s glare burned against my backas she lurked and waited for me to turn on Robb. Old Gods, but that woman’sblind prejudice was annoying. “Do you know what you’re going to ask Fatherfor?”

“I think… I’d like to know who my mother was. And why Fatherchose to raise me here instead of leaving me with her.” Carefully not lookingover my shoulder at where I knew the Lady Stark was spying on interactions, Imade sure to keep my voice thoughtful. “I’m almost a man grown. I think I’m oldenough to understand if it… if it was something terrible.”

“Oh…” The future lord of Winterfell looked thoughtful, andnodded his head as he clapped a hand to my shoulder. “If anyone deserves toknow it’s you, brother.”

“Well, one can hope.” With a chuckle, I shook my head. “Nowcome on, Robb. Let’s finish putting this away.”

“Aye.” Sighing as he looked at how much was left to takecare of, Robb grumbled but set too willingly enough. “Can’t leave a job halfdone.”

“T’would be unfitting of a son of House Stark.” I agreed withjust enough mockery in my tone to make Robb laugh and the Lady Stark bristle.Honestly, the woman was so easy to rile up. It was actually a bit sad.

/…/

“Father, please.”I may have arranged for Lady Stark to follow me into the Godswood today when Iwent to confront Ned Stark about my true origins, but it still bothered me toknow that she was lurking while I asked my father for honesty. Stupid bint. Myirritation made my voice crack with suppressed emotion. “Please, I deserve toknow. If it’s a secret you’re keeping to preserve a Lady’s honour, I swear bythe Old God’s I won’t speak of it! I just wish to know her name. Please.”

“I swore to your mother to keep you safe, Jon. You are myblood.” Ned Stark was a quiet man, but he had enough determination to grindmountains to dust. A brilliant attribute when you needed to ration suppliesthrough a decade long winter. Not so endearing when trying to get him to saysomething he wanted to stay secret. “That is enough for me. Let that be the endof it.”

“Fine then, if you won’t tell me my mother’s name… then tellme my fathers!” The blood drained out of my father’s face, and guilt rose in mychest. I forged onwards anyway, because this needed doing if we were going tosurvive the Long Night without worrying about knives in our backs. “People talkabout me, and I hear it all the time. ‘The Honorable Ned Stark’s only sin’,they call me. But they don’t know you, Father. Not like I do. Not enough toknow that… you wouldn’t. Not after you wed, not after you swore an oath. Evenif Lady Stark was supposed to be yourelder brother’s wife… you would never dishonour her that way.”

Father’s grip on the Heart Tree’s bark was desperate as hiseyes searched my face. I swallowed, hating the pain I saw in his eyes. “Idon’t… It matters not who sired me, not truly. You are my father in all the ways that count, and aye, your bloodis in my veins, but… it was Lord Brandon who sired me, wasn’t it. With LadyAshara Dayne. If I had been a girl… you could have left me there, let me be aSand. But I was a boy, and the only son of Rickard Stark’s eldest son. That’swhy everyone says Lady Ashara’s daughterwas stillborn. It was a misdirection to cover your tracks, because LordBrandon’s son, even a bastard one, could have a stronger claim than your sonsand-”

“Stop. Jon, please. That’s enough. That is… that is morethan enough.” Strong, sword calloused hands gripped my shoulders, and sterngrey eyes held mine for a long moment before my Father’s expression softened.“I can see now, how much this has troubled you. You’ve never liked the thoughtof causing problems for Robb, and I can well believe that you would draw theworst possible conclusion… Aye, I suppose there’s nothing for it now.Especially not with that sort of rumour taking root…”

I forced my jaw to relax and my breathing to steady.“Father?”

“Your mother was not Ashara Dayne, Jon. And your father wasnot my brother. Would that… would that they hadbeen your parents. Perhaps this would be a simple thing to speak of.” Old, deeppain etched lines in my father’s face, and for a horrible moment I imagined it.Of being the only one still remaining of my siblings. Of Robb slain bytreachery, Sansa stolen away by our enemies, Arya and Bran losing themselves tovengeance and madness, Rickon’s memories of us fading away until he forgot usentirely… Father closed his eyes, seeming to gather his strength before hecould look me in the eye again. “You will always be my son, Jon. My blood is inyour veins, Jon. As is… as is the blood of my sister, Lyanna.”

I had been hoping for it, expecting it even, but still hearing him say it made my breath catchlike I had just been hit. There in front of the Heart Tree, with the truthringing in my ears, all I could manage to do was blink. “But… that would makemy father… but I don’t want to be aTargaryen! I want to be a Stark! Father, don’t tell anyone else!”

Sputtering a relieved laugh my father shook me gently untilI stopped whining, and then he pulled me into an embrace. “I promise, Jon. Noone else will ever know.”

“Mm… maybe… uh, maybe oneother person.” I felt my father stiffen, and I firmly kept my face pressed intothe fur of his collar. “Maybe… I think it would be okay for you to tell LadyStark? Maybe then she’ll agree to have a proper marriage ceremony.”

“Jon, I… I know Cat hasn’t always been kind to you. Are yousure you wish for her to know?” Father pushed me back so he could see my face.I pouted shamelessly, because proper hugs were stupidly scarce in thismachismo-laden hellscape. “Don’t… don’t say yes because you want to make thingseasier for me, Jon. I can handle an argument with my wife.”

“But you want to get married in front of the Heart Tree.” Ipointed out sullenly, keeping my eyes firmly on my father’s chin. “And youcan’t do that while you keep secrets from her.”

“It’s been three and ten years, Jon.” Father sighed, clearlonging in his words even as he pushed his own wants aside for the sake of hisduty. “If she were willing to truly join the North she would have saidsomething to me by now.”

Oh, that comment was going to burn. I know my dear eavesdropping Auntie has never felt welcome inthe North, and now she knows why.This is delicious and I love it.

“Tell her anyway, Father.” Meeting those grey eyes again, Ioffered up a wry smile. “Perhaps this will be enough for her to make thatoffer. Perhaps it will calm her fears about me hurting Robb. Perhaps she willsimply continue to ignore the fact that I exist until she cannot avoid it anylonger. Regardless of the outcome, she at least deserves to know that you havenever broken your oaths to her. She deserves to know that another oath boundyou to silence, for all our sakes.”

“You are a good boy, Jon.” Father smiled, embracing me againas he kissed my hair. “Never forget that kindness. It is a great gift.”

“I won’t, Father.” I smiled back and leaned into thestrength of the only father I would ever acknowledge. “After all, I have you toshow me what to do.”

/…/

The next morning, I could see that Father had spoken to hiswife. The way she looked at me… Catelyn was ashamed of herself. Was writhing inguilt of her own making like a worm on a hook. Doubtless she was rememberingthe promise she had made to her Seven Gods, the promise she had broken so veryquickly when she learned that I had lived through my fever.

This was no less than she deserved.

I took my seat at the head table without sparing her morethan a glance. Catelyn’s eyes were reddened and heavy from a night of weeping.For once, there was no transparent attempt to have me sit elsewhere, removedfrom my family. Sansa wrinkled her nose at me, only having recently learnedwhat the word ‘bastard’ meant, thanks to the Southron influences in her life.

Robb and Theon glanced at Lady Stark, but did not hesitateto draw me into their morning conversation once I was seated.

“So.” Robb kept his voice quiet enough not to be heardbeyond our small huddle. “Did you get the nameday gift you wanted?”

“I did.” Inclining my head, I answered just as quietly.“It’s like we thought. She’s dead, but Father’s still trying to protect hermemory.”

“But he gave you a name?” Theon questioned, sharp eyesscanning slowly over the hall for listening ears.

“He did. I asked him to tell Lady Stark.” I shrugged whenthey both looked at me strangely. “Perhaps now she will stop fretting over it.It would be nice not to be accused of causing everything that inconveniencesher.”

“Aye, that’s clever.” Grinning, Theon bumped his shoulderinto mine as he pulled his plate closer. “And now she owes you a debt, too.”

“Let’s not bring attention to that, shall we?” I smackedTheon’s fingers with the back of my knife before he could steal my bread.“That’s my breakfast, Greyjoy. Get your own.”

“But it tastes better when it’s stolen!” Laughing as heprotested, Theon held his hands up in surrender when I pointed my knife at him.“I yield, I yield. Your food is safe, Snow.”

“Now there’s a lie if I ever heard one.” Robb snorted,curling his arm around his plate when Theon turned to him with a woundedexpression. “You’re a shameless food sneak, Theon. The cooks are all out forvengeance over missing platters.”

With a disdainful sniff, Theon turned back to his own plate.“I’m a growing man.”

“You’re a bottomless pit, is what you are.” I eyed theIronborn boy up and down. “How are you this weedy if all you do is eat?”

“You’re one to talk.” Robb snickered, the smug little shit.One day he would actually reach an awkward growth stage and I was going tolaugh so hard. “You’re barely biggerthan the girls, Snow.”

The was a scraping noise as Father stood up and cleared histhroat, drawing every eye in the hall and cutting off my retort. Robb was goingto get his ass kicked for that comment later during our arms practice. For now,I held my tongue and paid attention as Father raised his hand for silence.

“I have two announcements to make this morning.” Fatherturned and smiled at his wife, placing a hand on the back of her chair. “Tocelebrate the anniversary of King Robert’s coronation, my Lady Wife and I shallbe renewing our vows in the Godswood. The invitations to our bannermen Housesshall be sent later today.”

A cheer shook the rafters. I laughed and clapped my hands,vastly entertained by the dumbstruck look on Catelyn’s face as the Northernpeople applauded. This was the first step to her gaining full acceptance, and Iplanned to keep that momentum going.

“Second.” Father continued once the ruckus had died down. “Withthe blessings and council of my Lady Wife, I have written to King Robert askingfor the granting of legitimacy to my natural born son. Once it is official, JonStark will be named the future lord of Moat Cailin and tasked with itsrestoration.”

Robb and Theon whooped, pounding me on the back as I gapedat my father. Arya shrieked in glee and lunged across the table to throw herarms around my neck. Even Sansa was smiling, even if it looked a bit stiff withconfusion. Baby Rickon had no idea what was going on but he still added hisvoice to the mess.

Holy shit yes. My plans were working. Theon actually had manners, Father had told the truthabout my birth, Lady Stark had gotten a reality check, and I had actually been legitimized…

Fucking right, I was going to Machiavelli the hell out of the Seven Kingdoms. Next up,convincing Father to have Arya fostered with the Mormonts, or at least have hertutored as a shieldmaiden by one, and then I was going to get Sansa someone shecould have an actual intelligent conversation with.

Yes, excellent. This pleases me.

=/=

[goodqueenaly]

Are there any guesses as to how old Allyria Dayne is? Considering she was merely betrothed to Lord Beric in 294 AC (when Beric was about 18 or 19 so it can't be due to his age), and still unmarried by 298 AC, it seems like she'd be on the younger side?

It’s certainly possible that Allyria Dayne is on the younger side, and that Beric Dondarrion was waiting for her to grow a little older before he wedded (and bedded) her. If we suppose that betrothals for highborn Westerosi girls typically happen just before or around their “first flowering”, roughly age 12 or 13, then we might guess that Allyria was born in or around 281 AC, which would make her just shy of 20 in the current novel timeframe. If she were betrothed even younger (not an unknown practice, considering Brienne was betrothed at seven to Bryen Caron’s younger son) and the interested parties were merely waiting, as in the case of Alys Karstark, for her first flowering to have her marry, then she might be even closer in age to her nephew Edric, and only in her early to mid teens right now. It would make a great disparity of age between Allyria and her elder siblings, but this is not in itself unprecedented: Rhaegar was a quarter of a century older than his youngest sibling, while in a more extreme case Stevron Frey was some six decades older than his youngest (half) sibling, Shirei. 

At the same time, I find the idea that Allyria has to have been merely too young for marriage, well, rather restricting. After all, age alone is not the only factor that could delay a marriage after a betrothal has been made. Changing political/personal circumstances could just as easily delay a marriage (what I suspect happened to poor Kiera of Tyrosh). A betrothal for an excess Dayne daughter made while Lord Dayne (Edric’s father) was still alive and had every hope of fathering a litter of Dayne heirs of his own might be looked upon very differently if he died not long after, leaving little Edric the new Lord of Starfall. Suddenly Lady Allyria would be (apparently) next in line to lead House Dayne - and just as suddenly, a betrothal to a marcher lord whose House’s founding story celebrates killing Dornishmen might not be so desirable for the heiress presumptive of one of the most prominent Dornish Houses. Betrothals are not always easy things to break, and this might have seemed particularly true when the head of the House of one of the betrothed parties had been living with the other party for years as a sort of surrogate son. Maybe Allyria thought she could play for time, keep delaying until Beric himself gave up, or maybe she thought she could delay until Edric married himself, when she would be farther away from the Dayne succession. I’m not saying any of this is the case, obviously, just that there’s food for thought.

The fact is, though, there is simply not enough information to begin to make more than a vague guess as to how old Allyria is. She is younger than the late Ashara, which puts her birth year at the earliest at 261 AC, and she’s old enough to be betrothed by 294 AC … and that’s about it. In that time range, any birth year is at this moment possible, until and unless we get further clarifying information. My real suspicion is twofold: one, that GRRM didn’t think much about the timeline (not to mention because he can’t math) and instead just decided to give Beric a fiancee from an appropriately tragic family, to make his own tragedy cut that much more deeply; and two, that any information we were supposed to learn about Allyria got lost or reshuffled in the abandonment of the five-year gap that really screwed over House Dayne.