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the-way-astray · 4 months ago

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Ok just saw that your asks are open

Ik that you do not like Keefe (for valid reasons)

But here's something for you to analyze/think about

Not necessarily to change your mind about him bit if it does it does

Ok so

At the end of neverseen Keefe said "sometimes things have to get worse before they get better"

Yes he was referencing to him running away and for lodestat Yada Yada what have you

But I FULL heartedly believe that it was foreshadowing for the entirety of his chara arc throughout the series

Cause as of stellarlune he is at his lowest of lows

However you want to classify that us he's there

The way he treats his friends, his relationships with them, his mental state, ability state, common sense

All of it

And do I think it's gonna get worse than what it already is

YUP

But here's what that quote implies

It DOES get better

Never says when or how

But just that it does

I fully believe that after he gets past the roughest patch (whether that's him currently or even him in book 10) that he'll slowly start to realize how he's been and start trying to be better and get the help he needs

And tbh

I don't think it'll be anytime soon

I feel like he needs to have the (inevitable) argument with Sophie to finally realized it

Cause trust me as much as I ship sokeefe I really do believe they need to have an argument

Maybe even not speak for a book

But it'll be good for him in the end and hopefully he sees how he's been acting these last few books

Thoughts on this?

okay, sorry this took so long to get to. every time i try to answer it, it doesn't come out quite right. but here's my best shot.

i would agree with the idea of "sometimes things have to get worse before they get better" as an arc for keefe. that would be cool. and obviously, since at the time of this writing, the series is unfinished, there's always a possibility shannon could turn it around for herself. i've talked about this briefly in some post from a while ago, but there is a chance shannon will execute a flawless character arc for keefe in unraveled. is it likely? not really. but i wouldn't say it's impossible.

what makes me think this will not happen? in short: the fact that his flaws, the real flaws, not "cares too much about sophie" or "is too willing to self-sacrifice", have not once been villainized or called out as something seriously wrong in the series.

here's a list (referencing this post, where i list out all the things i dislike about keefe, there's more than just what i listed here, but these are the character flaws):

"i hate the way he manipulates, gaslights, extorts, and pressures sophie (and other people) into telling him shit they wouldn't ordinarily." this is never made out to be a bad thing. the person on the receiving end usually just grumbles something like "empaths", then after five seconds it's dropped. you don't see it affect keefe's relationships, you don't see people become uneasy around him, keep their distance from him because oh, that's the guy that's going to spill my secrets, it never feels like this affects keefe's relationships in any negative way. there is no long-term damage. it is completely swept under the rug, and it is never, ever seriously villainized. if shannon wanted to execute a "sometimes things have to get worse before they get better" type arc for keefe with regards to this flaw, she'd have to start by having it be a negative thing. then only can keefe work toward a better place. but shannon skipped that crucial step. so how can i assume that she's trying to develop keefe out of this, even if the development goes forwards and backwards and all over the place?

"i hate what a terrible friend he is." there are so many examples of this that i can't remember exactly what i was referencing when i wrote that. in any case, basically the same as what i said above applies. keefe needs to first be villainized for his toxic behavior if he's to grow out of it. take his comments toward fitz in the famous healing center scene, as an example. yes, the scene is told from keefe's perspective, meaning obviously he's not going to hold himself accountable. but maybe elwin steps in and reprimands keefe for what he said. maybe keefe detects sophie's anger toward him for the comments he made toward fitz. maybe he's even told off by fitz himself. there are a variety of ways to make it clear that this is not a good person to be. only then can keefe's journey even begin. if shannon is to do a "sometimes things have to get worse before they get better" type thing for keefe with regards to this, then things have to get worse for him. he needs to feel the consequences of his actions, which he never does.

"i hate the way he simultaneously pedestalizes and infantilizes sophie." once again, this is never made out to be a bad thing. if anything, keefe's pedestalization of sophie is meant to endear the audience to him. his infantilization is disguised as """"""witty"""""" jokes, so that is also probably supposed to make us like him. shannon actually managed to take keefe's toxic traits and sell them to the audience as good qualities. could be a masterclass in writing if she did something with this, but it's very clear she actually believes that these are good things. once again, if keefe is to develop out of these things and find a better place, even if he makes a few mistakes and "gets worse", so to speak, at various points along his character arc, that would still require his arc to actually like. begin. shannon hasn't even reached that part. so once again, how am i supposed to expect that she'll write any kind of arc with regards to this?

"i hate the way he's so jealous, so passive-aggressive, so toxic to his supposed friends." i've talked about this very, very briefly before, but i'm almost certain that we're supposed to see keefe as being "in the right" during the healing center scene, at least as the way shannon intended for it to be taken. one second . . . okay i found the post where i said it. here's what i said verbatim: "#i really feel like. shannon genuinely did not mean for him to come off so mean#she was definitely banking on the fact that everyone hates fitz#it's FITZ that's the one that's the butt of the mean joke by KEEFE so nobody will care! right? right guys? guys?#and honestly she's probably correct about that because most of the fandom DOES like keefe and hate fitz so like". now obviously i cannot be 100000000% sure, but from years of reading and rereading these books, i've become pretty confident that shannon genuinely wants us to perceive keefe as an otherwise-perfect angel whose only flaw is recklessness and his tendency to self-sacrifice. so those are the only flaws for which she writes a proper arc. and once again, if she wanted to write any sort of arc for him, even one that isn't perfectly linear, she would first have to start my acknowledging that keefe is the possessive, jealous, toxic friend here. but she doesn't.

"i hate the way sophie has to constantly babysit him because she doesn't know what stupid thing he'll do next and i hate the way he doesn't care about that, despite claiming he's doing half the things he does for her." this is the last one i'll mention in this post, promise. his stupidity is the flaw, by the way. i would say it's acknowledged. so congrats, shannon, you've reached the first step. better than i can say for the last four points. but that's where it ends. it's never developed from. keefe doesn't know how to work on a team and is incredibly stupid, something i ran into the ground while writing my rant. and come unlocked, 8.5 books into the series, he is still incredibly stupid and doesn't know how to work on a team. he consulted exactly zero people before running away to the forbidden cities, and while you could argue that it was ultimately his decision, i do think he should've at least gotten other people's opinions. this decision was so monumentally stupid, i cannot wrap my head around it. i'll talk about it more in my part two rant, but in my opinion, it's his stupidest move yet. now, what about the "sometimes things have to get worse before they get better" arc idea for this? doesn't this mean that this could just be a low he's hitting in his arc? well personally i'd say no. because he never reaches a point where he feels like he's working towards not hijacking plans because he wants to genuinely be better and stop. the famous nightfall scene comes to mind, and as i've mentioned before, the reason this, in my opinion, isn't indicative of his arc progressing is that he apologizes entirely out of a desire to appease sophie and win her back to his side, and not because he actually wants to change. so that doesn't count. in legacy, sophie thinks to herself that if she doesn't go with keefe to london, he will find a way to get there himself, once again showing that he has no desire to consider other people's opinions. sophie actually only agrees to go because she's scared of what stupid shit keefe will get into if she's not there to babysit him. she caves to his hijacking, instead of nipping it in the bud, the way she tried to in nightfall. so i'd say there isn't any spectacular moment before unlocked where keefe is getting better with regards to his hijacking plans because he thinks he knows better than everyone else.

okay, now that i've hopefully sufficiently proven that keefe's arc is not a "sometimes things have to get worse before they get better" arc, at least not in the way it's executed in canon, i'll move to the rest of your points:

"as of stellarlune he is at his lowest of lows/The way he treats his friends, his relationships with them, his mental state, ability state, common sense" (sorry for formatting this like the lyrics of a freaking song, but i wanted it all in one paragraph lmfao.)

i disagree with this. i actually think his arc is looking up, with regards to his flaws, at least, in stellarlune. he seems like, to put it very, very bluntly, a morally better person. like he did some thinking in the forbidden cities and decided to get his shit together. this is why i say that i have to read unraveled before making my mind up about whether keefe's arc truly sucks or not. because if shannon has him acknowledge all the things i mentioned and make an effort to be better for himself, because he wants to be, then i can see how i could be swayed to the "keefe has a good arc" side. i do still think the chances of this are incredibly slim, though.

i would tentatively say the way he treats his friends is better in stellarlune. he certainly seems like he mellowed out a bit. he also only has like a couple hundred pages of that book to himself, and even less to showing what he's truly thinking on the inside, so it's difficult to tell for sure. his ability state and mental state are as shit as ever, agreed. but i'm not really talking about that? i'm talking about his arc and the flaws that i dislike about him, that i believe should be developed or at least called out for him to be a decent character.

"And do I think it's gonna get worse than what it already is"

same, but i think that low will be hit in unraveled. i think what we're seeing in stellarlune is actually him getting better from some major low he must've hit in unraveled. but once again, none of this has anything to do with why i dislike keefe. i dislike him because his flaws are never acknowledged or developed out of as the series progesses.

"I fully believe that after he gets past the roughest patch (whether that's him currently or even him in book 10) that he'll slowly start to realize how he's been and start trying to be better and get the help he needs"

one thing that i absolutely despise when it comes to writing character arcs is when like 90% of the development happens in the last like 10% of the series. it always feels incredibly rushed and incredibly forced, and it can be done well almost never. it's my opinion that arcs, and all the major progress and setbacks, need to happen evenly throughout the series so that you really feel like the character at the 25% mark is a different character than the one at the 75% mark, with regards to the thing being developed. i don't see that with keefe. he's a toxic friend in everblaze, he's a toxic friend in legacy. he's stupid in everblaze, he's stupid in legacy. he's manipulative in everblaze, he's manipulative in legacy. there hasn't even been a realization on his part.

having said all that, i do think there is a way to write his arc in unraveled that could at least make me tolerate him. and i do agree that there's a slim possibility that shannon could magically decide to develop him in book ten. but also keep in mind that book ten or book eleven is the last book. so there's a strong possibility that i'll still consider it too little, too late. but they are future books. i'll have thoughts when they come out for sure, but for now it's hard to tell what i'll feel about them.

"I feel like he needs to have the (inevitable) argument with Sophie to finally realized it/Cause trust me as much as I ship sokeefe I really do believe they need to have an argument/Maybe even not speak for a book/But it'll be good for him in the end and hopefully he sees how he's been acting these last few books"

i agree. i've actually talked about this briefly in my keefe rant, except i've talked about how i wanted them to fight in nightfall, not in book ten. here's that part, copy-pasted verbatim:

“Sometimes I still worry that some tiny part of her holds it against me. That she’ll never fully trust me. That she’ll always see me as the guy who betrayed her and stole from her and ran off with the enemy.” (Unlocked, Keefe's diary entries, 494) This would be really cool to explore if it was actually done. Sophie holding this against Keefe and struggling with that in the aftermath of Lodestar would be an awesome way to develop their relationship and have them overcome that hurdle and give them both some much needed development. But we know that aside from a single line at the beginning of Nightfall, Sophie never really blames Keefe. She just immediately forgives him for his time with the Neverseen. It’s pathetic writing. Something like that should have consequences. But it doesn’t, because then our poor Keefe will have to be *gasp* villainized. There could be this whole arc about how Sophie doesn’t trust Keefe the same and it impacts their relationship subtly and both of them feel it but don’t want to talk about it and it’s this giant, gaping hole. Then finally there’s a climax where Keefe confronts her about it and maybe she yells at him and he agrees that he’ll do anything to get her trust back. Then he does it. He does the smart thing, takes the smart advice. And he learns. He understands what he did was wrong and is truly a different person now. Honestly, the fact that Shannon explained this out shows me that she’s aware the possibility of this arc exists, but unfortunately, didn’t actually put it into action. Would it have been the most original conflict ever? No. But it would’ve been much better than whatever this dumpster fire of a lack of an arc she actually wrote is. I think I might’ve genuinely enjoyed Sophie and Keefe as a couple if she’d just made them have some distrust that they overcome through genuine work and growth.

anyway, if i didn't answer your question the way you wanted, feel free to shoot me a follow-up ask. i think i got it, but if i misinterpreted, tell me.

tldr: the reason i don't buy keefe's arc as a "sometimes things have to get worse before they get better" kind of arc is because that would require keefe's flaws to actually be acknowledged and villainized by the narrative, and for them to have actual consequences that affect him, which they do not. this leads me to believe shannon doesn't see these things as flaws, and therefore will never give keefe the development he needs to have a good arc.

#kotlc #kotlc discourse #anti keefe sencen #kotlc keefe #asks #alaydabug2 #i'm cooking today guys this is the second anti keefe thing i've done today #i'll post the infantilization argument thing soon. i just have a feeling some people are going to be really mad about it #so i'm letting it cook #if i had to pick one (1) thing to present about why i dislike keefe. just one argument i could make #i would pick “his flaws are never developed or acknowledged”#because that's THE THING. no matter what flaw of keefe's you hate that's THE THING that keefe haters hate about him #nobody actually cares that he's manipulative or invalidating or toxic or nosy or whatever it may be #we care because the way the narrative portrays it makes it out to be a good thing

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humanmorph · 1 year ago

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"They found each other in the wreckage of optimism, and it took them a decade to decide that hope was not enough to save the Golden Branch from itself. It was in a library, not an armoury, where the Apostolosian became the sword and shield of Integrity, a Divine who’d lost its Candidate. Some climb into their Divines, others deploy them across the battlefield, or fight under the blanket of their shadows. But Integrity demands intimacy. It digs into the flesh of the willing, all metal and promises and penetralia, desperate to create an unbreakable unity. It is afraid, and wounded, and it cannot know the power it gives without seeing it first in the reflection of a Candidate's eyes: the loft, the velocity, the violence. And for the first time in centuries, Integrity doesn’t fear its Candidate. It moves with confidence, in muscle and ambition. It believes in Sokrates Nikon Artemisios." (COUNTER/Weight 22: A Broken Branch)

Great episode to get to after recent palisade happenings. I obviously remember the "Integrity demands intimacy" but there's so much other great stuff here.... "They found each other in the wreckage of optimism" is just incredible.

Edit: Noting the wording of " [...] the Apostolosian became the sword and shield of Integrity" because Integrity literally is both those things - they are the armor Sokrates wears and the weapon they wield - but it positions them here both as a protector of Integrity and someone Integrity acts through (divines & candidates!).

And I love that this gives Integrity pre-Sokrates interiority I had honestly completely forgotten about. "For the first time in centuries, Integrity doesn't fear it's candidate" A divine afraid(!) of what it can do together with it's candidate, the power it gives. And then what Austin describes in pal29 comes to mind, which is like, "if there was a time when Integrity was like, you know, 'Finally someone has come to help me get out of this situation.' That is not what's happening here." It's interesting because that phrasing of if not the current but a past state("that time has come and gone ")... it still sounds like fear a little bit. And that obviously isn't the case anymore (I don't feel like typing out this Austin quote but he said something about the notion of immortality & change that made me real happy. I love that shit) & I'm curious to learn more about this hopefully.

I love Integrity & while I don't think of it as "the good one", it's fate is important to me because is still one of the sickest divines (which is really saying a lot with like, Perennial and Motion et al. around).

#Integrity is in the description for todays ep & I'm not sure if that's because they're just mentioned like hey btw. or actually relevant #But I shall find out. After I finish this faction game that is #counterweightposting #Palisadeposting #Palisade spoilers #I couldn't fit it in up there but more than everything else 'It is afraid and wounded' made me think of pal29. Likeeee #Also I was like Austin come on give people some credit when he said that bit abt integrity fans going but that's the good one #But 1) likely something he's actually seen? and 2) I can't lie I would like it to be on MBs side. This is my wouldn't that be sick? part.#But ultimately I want whatever happens to to be interesting. And there's things that aren't interesting to me and some of those -#- even fall under 'on MBs side' so like. WELL I'LL JUST HAVE TO SEE.#I could elaborate on what's not interesting to me but it's a little. What if I jinx it. (not real) (I'm being extremely silly)#Those tags could've been it's own post tbh but I don't want to type it all out again.

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