#old ebonheart

[darkelfguy]

Morrowind - Tamriel Rebuilt - Cities of the Mainland

[cedarnommer]

Old Ebonheart, Tamriel Rebuilt, The Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind

[creeperthescamp]

yo. if you have ever enjoyed playing Tamriel Rebuilt (or Skyrim: Home of the Nords): please consider contributing to the UESP articles!

a lot of these pages (especially for SHOTN) are either empty or haven't been updated in years, and there's no official effort on the devs side to update uesp stuff. i've just been doing npc pages for like a couple of months and it's really fun and satisfying :3 it would be really nice to see more people get involved!

[muttonsnacks]

Was testing if Dynamic Music was working and

This fucks severely.

[blackfeathercourt]

Got Nocmos Brain Rot™ again and made a timeline to pinpoint the most important events of her life and to illustrate the way she's been changing and growing

Close-ups and some notes below the cut

weirdly cut because I didn't want images to be giant and long to scroll by x_x

Just a baby. Nocmos had a relatively normal early childhood. Definitely cast her first spell before spoke her first word.

Nocmos begins her studies when she's around 10 years old… and that's when her free time is done for. Almost every minute of her day now is dedicated to studying, with magic being most paid attention to, which is a given with her Telvanni background. Moreover, she was taught with the intention of her enrolling to Shad Astula, a prestigious magic academy near Mournhold. She wastes all her teen years being stuck in her family's tower in Sadrith Mora, barely leaving the settlement and having little idea of the world outside.

elves must hit their puberty later then humans, so she's still yet to grow a little

Alright, Nocmos makes it to Shad Astula. She immediately starts distancing herself from her family back on Vvardenfell, since now she's away on the mainland (kinda). She keeps her studies up, a bit more enthusiastically now since she can finally meet people all over the Ebonheart Pact and not be limited to the Telvanni bunch. Starts learning to socialise on her own, catastrophically at first, with accidental racism all over the place... But it's alright, she even manages to make some first friends.

Initial meeting with Endalwe occurs at around this time, somewhere on a field trip I suppose while Endalwe is adventuring around the region. Neither one of them pays much mind to each other at this point.

Nocmos (barely) graduates Shad Astula and begins her own independent research, albeit under Divayth Fyr's guidance. She becomes his apprentice, living in the same tower as him, assisting him when he makes her and accompanying him in his travels. She learns a lot during that time and finally gets to explore Tamriel a little, which inspires her greatly to continue her studies.

At around that time, Nocmos discovers her new special interest - tinkering and constructing, though still on a very early stage. She meets Endalwe again in Vivec, when she's completing the Morrowind story line, and spontaneously decides to assist her. That allows not only for them to develop deeper friendship, but also for Nocmos to become acquainted with a former Clockwork apostle, Barilzar. I imagine she does all the quests which involve him, which means she gets a peek of the Clockwork city at the very end of the storyline. And… she becomes obsessed! Barilzar kicks her out and doesn't really want anything to do with her anymore, so she takes matters into her own hands and starts exploring Dwarven ruins on her own, eager to study the nature of the constructs. She even tries to build something on her own, bringing home spare parts and tools, thinking Divayth isn't aware of her new hobby. He is.

So, this is the most crucial point of Nocmos's life. She completes the Clockwork City DLC! With Divayth's guidance, as he notices her interest and deems her worthy of such endeavour, but she does all the quests mostly on her own. After that, they bid farewell and he officially ends her apprenticeship. Nocmos decides to stay in the Clockwork City and later becomes an Apostle. This allows her to bring two of her hyperfixations together - she starts practicing some actual constructing and occasionally studying magic from Sotha Sil himself as she's now in a pretty favourable position, having rescued his life and everything. Yeah, that also makes her times more religious than before.

Another point of importance is that her design finally settles down. Her appearance doesn't change much past that. She gets that Apostle tiara, crafts some ear extensions to correct their shape, loses her arm in an accident and gets a prosthetic (along with her staff, but that happens a little later) from Sotha Sil, adopts local clothing style which she uses later independently and grows her hair out to its final length, not letting it get longer or shorter.

Some time later, Nocmos's Telvanni heritage starts calling out to her. She gets a permit to travel freely to and from the Brass Fortress, and returns to Tamriel, intent to make a name for herself as a Telvanni sorceress, just to spice up her life a little. Nocmos manages to get on Mistress Dratha's good side in Vos, and gets a permission to grow her own tower in there. Then she starts eagerly and deliberately climbing up the ladder, rising in ranks, using all means to get as high as she can - charisma, cunning, thievery, backstabbing, secondhand murder... whatever. She acquires all those necessary skills which help her later on in life. Of course, this process is a very long one, and goes on for decades, but eventually she manages to rise to the rank of Master and only then does she settle down.

Here she's pictured in a Telvanni attire from ESO, tweaked a bit to my liking, but I think she continues wearing her Apostle robes just to remind people who she is

This is the point in her life when she reunites properly with Endalwe and starts adventuring with her, along with Bliss and Tanarion. Endalwe lures her in by promises of an endless research material during their world-saving quests... and Nocmos doesn't need a lot of persuading, since she's herself eager to travel and explore, especially in the safety of the company of warriors. And since she likes Endalwe as it is, of course.

Okay, so I haven't developed anything much beyond that point. Nocmos and others does all those big chapter and dlc storylines... and that takes years and years because I absolutely refuse to believe that Vestige has to do everything on their own within the span of one year. They also have periods of rest in between them, when Nocmos either collects the data she's earned on their adventures and writes a paper or too, ooor comes back to her duties in the Clockwork city.

[renegade-hierophant]

Mural in Old Ebonheart:

“The Heathen God Vivec Surrenders to Tiber Septim”

Ouch!

[yeoldecorprusarium]

what if we kissed

in the old ebonheart sewers? 😳

[lensdeer]

No I can't fucking be normal about the Morrowind intro

After you start the game, Jiub says he "heard [the guards] say you've reached Morrowind", but in the cutscene Azura says they took you out of the Imperial City Prison "first by carriage and now by boat", so what the fuck sort of route did you take that the people driving the boat set sail from somewhere outside Morrowind and only "reached" it near Seyda Neen.

I'm extremely autistic about The Elder Scrolls lore, so I have obsessed about this issue for years: Jiub clearly meant you reached "Vvardenfell" the island within "Morrowind" the Province. I get it; from a marketing point of view, it makes sense to namedrop the name in the game's box right as you start playing, but bear with me here (why they didn't name the game "TES III: Vvardenfell" instead still escapes me; Daggerfall isn't named "High Rock" or "Hammerfell" anyways, so it doesn't have to be a province name! "TES II: Iliac Bay" would've been a significantly worse if more accurate name for that one anyways, but I digress).

With the beautiful amount of care Morrowind's team of writers put into even the most mundane details of the game's lore this detail has always struck me as weird, and since TES canon has an in-universe explanation for even the most minor gameplay mechanics like Oblivion not having levitation spells, I can't stop fucking thinking about it.

See, it's pretty easy to see that this is the optimal/fastest (and therefore most likely) route the guards used to move you from the Imperial City Prison to Seyda Neen:

Out of the Prison through the Imperial City itself, over Lake Rumare through the Talos Bridge, around the Red Ring Road and then the Blue Road, maybe stopping for the night in Cheydinhal, entering Morrowind through some frontier pass in the Velothi Mountains, traveling through the Stonefalls region for a bit, and finally boarding a ship on Old Ebonheart to take you to Seyda Neen.

In this case, you entered Morrowind WAY before even getting on the ship! It makes absolutely no sense that they would say you "reached Morrowind" if you traveled through this, the only sensible route.

So what the hell kind of route did they take you through?

If, for some reason, the guards didn't want you to set foot in Morrowind-The-Province until Seyda Neen and Seyda Neen only, they would've had to have taken you through a laughably inefficient route:

It starts the same as the previous route, but they would've had to split off the Blue Road before reaching Cheydinhal, crossed the significantly colder and more dangerous Jerall Mountains to enter Skyrim somewhere around Riften (rest stop?), wasted a bunch of time navigating through The Rift and Eastmarch, boarded a ship on Windhelm, navigated through icebergs in the Sea of Ghosts, and wasted a even more time navigating all the way through the Inner Sea to get to Seyda Neen (why not drop you off at Gnisis or somewhere else in north Vvardenfell at that point?).

If you were being taken to Morrowind with any degree of urgency it makes absolutely no sense to waste this much time and resources navigating through Skyrim's significantly less hospitable geography. And, even then, wouldn't the guards have said you "reached Morrowind" around the time the ship went into the Inner Sea anyways???

Thing is, that's literally the only other justifiable option. If they didn't want you to touch Morrowind OR Skyrim before getting dropped off at Seyda Neen, the only remaining option is the even more stupid Plan C:

Maybe they wanted to take you for the scenic route! The Nerevarine prophecy can get fulfilled fucking whenever, who cares:

Go down the Green Road through Bravil and board a ship in Leyawiin (maybe the Khajiit heard you're Azura(h)'s champion and let you through the Tenmar Jungle so you board it in Senchal instead?), and strap the FUCK in for the voyage of a lifetime through the Nepal Sea and sail the Padomaic Ocean aaaaaaaaall the fucking way around Black Marsh and mainland Morrowind, dodge a couple icebergs in the Sea of Ghosts, and navigate the Inner Sea to finally get to Seyda Neen (because fuck Tel Mora, Vivec and Ebonheart; we're determined here), like, at this point multiple years after leaving the Imperial City. Hope you packed enough provisions, because these guys are determined to not "reach Morrowind" until the Bitter Coast!

Alternatively: at this point, why didn't they just commit to the bit and just get some weirdo at the Arcane University to teleport you directly to Vvardenfell?

Condense multiple days of travel into a quick afternoon stroll through the Imperial City! Maybe the guards can do some shopping, watch a quick match in the Arena or chill for a bit in the Arboretum on their way back from dropping you off. Why not. Perfection.

Anyways. I like Morrowind, and I obsess over this topic every time I think about it. Hope I passed on my brainworms to y'all.

[aladaylessecondblog]

Severed Destiny, pt. 13

*Dagoth Ulen*

It had been a long time since Dagoth Ulen had left Kogoruhn, but it was not as though he minded. Whatever lay outside those walls, he did not want or need to remember. In memory there was only pain, the echo of his daughter's suffering which Lord Dagoth had wiped clean.

It was all he had asked of his Lord - to know his daughter was gone was one thing, but that was ALL he wanted to remember of her end. Take the horror I saw out of my head and my life is yours!

He had begged it on his knees before an ash statue, tears streaming down his face, after lengthy addictions to sujamma and skooma had not been enough. He had begged his new Lord to take the pain away.

Lord Dagoth had done it, earning in return most faithful service. Instead of the butchery he'd witnessed, there was now nothing, and though over time he began to lose more, there were always a few stray memories of happiness.

Ulen had been posted at Kogoruhn, at the former seat of House Dagoth, to assist Lord Uthol in guiding the souls that came there. To instruct those beneath him in worship. And in this manner had the years passed.

In his dreams this night there had come an order, directly from Lord Dagoth himself. An order that was close to his heart.

Dagoth Ulen, your Lord has need of you.

"Anything I may do for you shall be done." Ulen prostrated himself and rose only after He insisted on it. After a pause he spoke again. "What do you wish of me?"

Dagoth Ur seemed to hesitate, before forging forward. Long have I mourned the previous Nerevarine, and now, as you may have heard, there is another.

Ulen waited.

She is my daughter. I ask you to be frank with me, for as you have been a father before, you may think of things that simply do not occur to me.

What cruelty, Ulen thought, what savagery from Azura, to punish all sides for perceived sin by making the child the Nerevarine! And yet the honor this afforded him, to be taken so deeply into his Lord's confidence!

"How old is she? What have you managed to learn of her?" He did not beg pardon for asking these questions - he could feel there was no need to do so.

Lord Dagoth explained what he knew, what Orvas Dren had told him. That the girl of fifteen years was Sadara's child, that she had grown up in Ebonheart, right under everyone's nose. That she had been taken in by Vivec once she entered his city, and had only left to go to Tel Fyr.

The unspoken fear - that was visible to him - that either Azura or the false god would pour poison in the child's ear - seemed to rise. But more than that was the fear of her death.

It was clear that she still lived, because He had not felt her die, as He would if anyone with the divine disease did. But still Ulen saw what he had once seen in himself.

"Does she know she is your blood?"

She does, but I believe she fears me. The first time I appeared before her, she reached for a weapon.

"However distressing, natural for one who comes so early to the title of Nerevarine. She may have been fed on tales of your power even before she came to the false god's temple, who might also have told her you desire her death."

I am sure I do not need to tell you I desire anything but. If I should have her brought here for her own safety, she may not understand...and I do not wish to give her reasons to fear me. But...

"No father deserving of the title wishes his child to fear him," Ulen said, and then addressed the trailing off, "But?"

But it is necessary. I lost Nerevar, I lost her mother...I will not lose her as well.

---------------------------

*Almalexia*

She overheard the child's conversation with Fedris easily, despite the slight muffling provided by the helmet.

"Ahh...you're the one who has recently arrived in Mournhold from Vvardenfell. I was told of your arrival. I understand you had some problems with the Dark Brotherhood. An interesting group...and usually rather effective."

"Not this time," Haj-deek said confidently, "I was asleep when the...assassin...struck me, and still managed to live. I...could call it luck, I suppose."

"Luck!" Fedris burst out. "I'm surprised you're still alive! Perhaps you have potential, or they sent incompetents."

"Given my age and that I was attacked in my sleep and still managed to kill them I think it's the second part...have you any advice on how I might deal with these attacks?"

"We might willing to provide you protection, at least while you are here in the Temple. I believe you might be of service to our Lady."

"To you, maybe...I am certain...our...lady...will not wish to have me in her service."

"And why should I not?"

Almalexia appeared suddenly (at least, to the child) from the corner, and couldn't fail to notice the utter surprise displayed in her posture. Fedris immediately fell to his knees, while the girl remained standing despite her obvious fear.

"Isn't it obvious?"

"Kneel before the Lady, you impudent child!" Fedris burst out, and after a moment's hesitation the girl did.

It pleased her, pleased her greatly, to see the one wearing the moon-and-star kneel before her.

"Rise, both of you," Almalexia said, "Fedris, you may leave us. I am sure you have much to do...and I have much to discuss with our newcomer."

Fedris bowed again when he'd risen and quickly left. Then the goddess turned her eyes on Haj-deek.

"So you are the person I have been hearing about. I welcome you to my chapel, Haj-deek...or perhaps I should call you by another name? Tell me, why do you not show your face?" she asked. "I would look upon you, to see she whose service I might accept. "

"Just having the ring..." Haj-deek mumbled, "I can't show you my face. I--the Dark Brotherhood attacker's blade disfigured me...even with healing, the scars..."

The girl's voice shook when she spoke...this was unfortunate, but also handy.

"Do you think all those who serve me can only do so if their looks are intact?"

"Well, no, but--"

A pause. A long pause.

"You poor child. You must fear everything around you, and I am certain before you encountered Vivec that you had heard many stories of prior incarnates being murdered. Have you not?"

"I have heard the stories, but..." The girl hesitated before going on, "...have found no reason to believe them so far. Lord Vivec says things have 'changed greatly of late.'"

"And is it by his order that you come here? Does he send you as a way to prove that you are under his power?"

"I'm under nobody's power," Haj-deek spoke up quickly, "Not Azura's, not his, not m--Dagoth Ur's."

"So brave," Almalexia gave a smile, "To throw off Azura's yoke...I would never have thought it. Nerevar would never have done it."

The child's head tilted slightly.

"And Nerevar is dead. I don't want to serve one who doesn't bother to help those who need her."

"As well you should not. Come, you are safe in my Temple, none of those Dark Brotherhood fools will reach you here. I will see to your safety--"

"And in return you will want...what?"

If she didn't know better she would think the child was trying to buy time...but for what?

"Only your devotion," the smile spread across her face soon after, despite her doubts, "The same devotion I ask of all my faithful. If you seek one worthy of worship you need look no further than myself..."

"Lord Vivec expects me back," Haj-deek said, in a quieter tone, "What--shall I tell him, when I do not return on time? I only came to Mournhold in the first place to--see what might be done about the Dark Brotherhood's coming after me."

"Did you think that would be a quick affair? You are a little foolish, but at your age that is no surprise. And what shall you tell Vivec? Nothing. For now."

The child's posture began to ease, though not as much as she hoped.

Still...Haj-deek was only a girl, and girls of her sort could be led, if one took the right approach. A young one burdened with prophecy must surely be seeking answers, and Almalexia was eager to plant them in the child's mind.

[spoonmagister]

A Perfect Ending — The Chaotic Nature of Doing or Not Doing Things

They were all dead. The final spell blast was an exclamation mark to everything that had led to this point. I released my hands from the magick. And then it was all over. To make any kind of sense of it, I need to go forward 3 days, to the day the story will have started. And also ended. Time, as I have come to know it, is convoluted.

Larrius Varro, the Legion Champion at Moonmoth Legion Fort, was telling me a little story. For a Legion simpleton, his speech was laden with cryptic language, heavy-handed as it was. It was a story of corruption. Of a bad magistrate (I am told this magistrate does not exist, and I harbor no surprise at this revelation). Of bad people — a scout, a pawnbroker, a savant, a thief, and a smith. Of the inability of the law to combat these forces. Of the possibility of my taking action, and also my taking no action. Of the prayer for a bloodbath. Of the open-ended nature of the story which could possibly become VERY closed.

I related to him that I was not interested in the futile designation of good versus evil in a false realm within which good and evil only serve as a distraction. Similarly, I had no interest in those, like Larrius Varro, who restrict their own actions within something as absurd as “Law” — this was merely an excuse for inaction.

“Maybe the story will have a perfect ending,” he said as I headed to the exit. “It isn’t over yet.” He was trying to buy more sand for his hourglass. I wasn’t selling any.

As I teleported back to Tel Uvirith, it occurred to me that Larrius Varro’s story may very well be over, his prayer answered. I dug through the recent documents and pamphlets I had piled onto the desk of Netheles Berom, my personal librarian. Beneath a collection of mysteriously acquired Writs of Execution, was a copy of a two-day-old edition of The Ebonheart Bellman — a periodical of note. After briefly confirming its contents, I had Netheles copy it and sent a messenger to personally deliver it to Varro. Attached to the periodical was a note, which read simply: “The bad people are all good people now. Possibly.”

FIVE DEAD FOLLOWING CARNAGE AND CONFUSION AT BALMORA COUNCIL CLUB A high-ranking Telvanni was arrested following a bloodbath at the Balmora Council Club. Witnesses say the conflict arose over the alleged theft of one (1) silver spoon. The Telvanni, an Altmer, was released shortly after her capture. Solea Nuccusius, Fort Moonmoth Legion Guard, could not be reached for comment. The Telvanni Altmer, due to potent and constant Illusion magicks, could not be reached or identified. The names of the victims, all dunmer, are as follows: Vadusa Sathryon — scout Marasa Aren — pawnbroker Madrale Thirith — thief Sovor Trandrel — savant Thanelen Velas — smith

[trainwiz]

I've updated my Room For A Thief to support the newest version of Tamriel Rebuilt. It also adds some new storage for alchemy ingredients and such.

[darkelfguy]

Morrowind - Tamriel Rebuilt - An Aerial View of Old Ebonheart

[autumnbrambleagain]

miscasts enhanced + julan + tamriel rebuilt = divine intervention to old ebonheart taking us to a tamriel preview glacier

[creeperthescamp]

oogogohh im playing tamriel rebuilt again. i haven't played it for a couple years so the dominions of dust/embers of empire stuff is new to me :3 playing Morrowind again feels like getting into a warm bath it's so fucking good!!!

my guy is a dunmer agent called adresi and he's a hlaalu and morag tong dude. i like him well enough but i keep getting new ideas for characters tho 😔 very annoying

[barfok]

I confess I just noticed the goose typo right before I hit send but I left it in because it made me laugh (obviously its meant to be house not goose lmao). Thanks for answering! Yeah that actually makes a lot of sense that Almalexia would try to get rid of as much of her mortal past as possible, very tragically on brand. What did nerevar think of amun-shae? Did he ever give his mother in law the credit she was owed? Also, I'm assuming it's ysmir who sheltered her during her exile? Why'd he do it? Did she have some idea of who he was and what he'd become?

Ps If u ever want to write the mordrin fuckin hanin essay I'd gladly read that too

:) thanks for keeping the goose typo, it delighted me

nerevar and amun-shae-- during her life amun-shae was seen by many as a traitor, as someone who'd sold out her city to the nords in exchange for power and comfort. this impression was particularly strong in those who had fought in the initial invasion... such as nerevar, who i hc as having lead a futile resistance during the brutal conquest of ebonheart. so even though he could acknowledge amun-shae's skills as a leader, nerevar still viewed her as a coward and a collaborator, and treated her with thinly veiled contempt. it was a point of contention between him and almalexia, because sometimes he looked at almalexia with that same suspicion. almalexia too spent much of her life existing under nordic occupation and had also endured accusations of collaboration

as for ysmir and amun-shae! the two of them had a long history actually, dating back to the invasion-- even though amun-shae surrendered, she was more or less at the whims of the invading Tongues, so when the surrender was made ysmir inserted himself into negotiations as amun-shae's guarantor of safety, basically saying that if anyone hurt her, he'd take retribution on her behalf. ysmir had grown very disillusioned with the nords over the course of the war and was looking for an excuse to break with them, so guaranteeing amun-shae's safety meant he would get to wage war with any and all of them if anything happened to her. fortunately for amun-shae it turns out that nobody in their right mind is going to fuck with ysmir so she was very safe under that deal.

they kinda grew close after that, because ysmir genuinely pitied her and was seeking allies amongst the chimer. amun-shae kept the old-guard boethiah worship that was traditional to her line, with an ideological basis in lorkhan reverence, and this gave her a lot of common ground from which to explore ysmir's own fanatic worship of shor. though ysmir lived on vvardenfell they kept up a regular correspondence throughout the occupation, and when things in mournhold became too dangerous to remain tenable, he was an obvious person to go to for help.

i don't think amun-shae had any idea of what ysmir really was. sure his immortality was weird but lots of thu'um users shouted themselves off of the mortal coil in those days. he was just an unusually kind, sensitive, insightful warlord who liked to pick her thoughts about the nature of lorkhan and reality

[progmetol]

Iveri info dump

Iveri’s relationship with her parents is actually kind of interesting, which is somewhat of a first for my characters because she has a more explicitly strained relationship with them, albeit, not entirely a negative one (holy run on sentence). Does she love them? Yes. Do they love her? Yes. But do they sometimes conflict? Yes. It’s not mostly conflict, but the conflict that happens is notable.

Iveri’s parents are Telvanni wizard lords. They’re both probably around 300 years old or so, still looking quite young though due to magic’s effect on aging and lifespan in TES. They’re relatively young for Telvanni wizards but not like Iveri who is still middle aged (172) for a non-magic-practicing elf (relatively speaking. Iveri mentally is very wise, even beyond her years). Of course Iveri does practice magic so she looks younger as well. It’s weird.

That being said Iveri has always been a little bit of an outcast. Nothing crazy though, really it was more she felt isolated because she was a prodigy. Her parents encouraged her though as the Telvanni tend to do. In fact, they were and still are very proud of her in regard to her studies and magical prowess, though they recognized that she was a little weird. If the Telvanni were independent, then Iveri was radically independent and immune to peer pressure.

Really the biggest thing that her parents were like WTF about in regards to pre-murder-sacrifice bullshit was the fact that she WANTED to explore Tamriel instead of staying in a mushroom tower. Sure, mushroom towers are cool, but Iveri got kind of sick of them after a hundred and fifty years or so. Telvanni politics were also somewhat boring when you’ve lived with them your whole life, a random chancellor getting assassinated is just another Tuedas.

Then there is the matter of post-resurrection when Iveri lost her memories… and subsequently regained them, now with a strange twist of her former personality and new developments that she made while an amnesiac. She visited Morrowind to see her family and they were absolutely appalled that she had been assisting the Empire and spying for them within the Ebonheart Pact. Unbelievable. (See my last info dump for… more info… on this).

But then Iveri explained in a half-truth that she was only doing it because the Dominion or King Emeric being in charge of the entire continent sounded like a really bad idea. She left out the fact that she actually had warmed up to the Imperials a bit. Her parents were slightly suspicious, but sure, whatever.

They were rightfully suspicious though, because eventually Iveri shows up on their doorstep again because her Imperial fiancé has to ask them for her hand in marriage. Oh, and he’s also the current de facto ruler of the Empire, considering both the absence of an Emperor or regnant (there is no fucking way that Clivia survived the bullshit in the Imperial City lmao). So of course they weren’t really big fans of that, but what were they going to do? Say no? Killing him would be a REALLY bad idea and they’re smart enough to know that. So they begrudgingly let it happen. They knew it would’ve happened anyway had they said no.