#oh and we do all agree that desecration of the Eucharist is another form of r*pe right? good

[ahopefulbromantic]

@idylls-of-the-divine-romance Here have some choccy milk and cookies, do you need anything, are you okay? (i am not, fyi. i will never be okay again)

When you first mentioned God being SA victim i nearly cried and then i went to the Mass and couldn't think about anything else. God Themself had to calm me down i was a mess i think i might have screamed at Him? It's a blur. For a moment i went "No, You can't. You can't do this, You hear me? I will NOT let You do this!"

My God, for a moment i understood Lucifer

See, it isn't hard to guess that i find SA the worst fate imaginable, is it? That i would absolutely prefer getting murdered, tortured, burned alive over getting r*ped. And so i've always thought well, God suffered a lot, He got abandoned, He got tortured, He got betrayed, He got killed, but at least, AT LEAST He didn't suffer this. There was my one and only consolation that AT LEAST my Jesus didn't suffer THIS.

How could i be so naïve to think the price of salvation, of showing the fullness of His love would be any less than taking the worst of the worst of the worst upon Himself.

Do you think Jesus remembered it when they tore His clothes off Him? Do you think anyone in the jeering crowd oggled Him, naked and vulnerable?…

Cause you know, i myself have no issue with pain. Heck, if there exists an entirely non-s*xual version of a masochist, i'm it. And death gets romanticized a lot, it is actually a rest after suffering sometimes. But this? This rewires my brain. This finally makes me see it all was a real deal. To undergo something so horrible, to conquer the irreversible. This is beyond me. This escapes my understanding. This really takes a God.

"Do not weep for Me; weep for yourselves and for your children" but i can't, my Lord. I can't. I'm sorry i can't, i can't not grieve after what happened i know You're okay now but i can't let it go i'm so sorry my Love i can't

And He was on the other side of it, too, as outrageous as it sounds. I really believe He took all sin and fault and blame and punishment and guilt upon Himself. I really believe the worst part about Gethsemane and the following day might have been feeling as though He Himself, Perfect Goodness, committed all these sins - including the most heinous acts one doesn't even want to think about.

Including being a r*pist.

On the other hand, it's truly remarkable how He has conquered this. How all of this did not take away His innocence, His purity, His virginity, His trust. How He still invites people to His tree of life as if nothing ever happened (it did. it happened, nothin will ever make it okay, and we must never forget it. He deserves that we don't ever forget)

I hated this interpretation, i kept being in denial, i insisted to myself that you were mistaken and overinterpreted things, but you know what? I can see it now. I can see it. It makes so much sense, in fact it seems it's the only interpretation that makes sense in this narrative. You convinced me and i hate it but you did

Would love to hear you elaborate on God is a SA victim if you’re up for it -Jo blood-is-the-life

Hiii @blood-is-the-life (tagging you so you'll get a notif when I answer). @ray-moo you also wanted to know about this. Also: @prosphoramuncher and @theclonehusband

*sighs* I meant to write this essay about God and androgyny and duality in Genesis 1-3 (which connects into the idea of God as being an sa victim) for a while now. @joanofarcs-stigmata I told you I'd tag you in this essay when I wrote it so here we go.

Okay, so let's start with ha-adam, the human, in Genesis 2. "Then the Yahweh God molded the human, humus from the soil, and breathed into their nostrils the breath of life; and the human became a living being." So there is one human, and as you can tell I side with the interpretation that said human is a hermaphrodite. I don't find in the word "adam" any indication that the human is male, and think rather the pronoun "he" is used just as a default.

Next however, Yahweh looks and "Yahweh God said, 'It is not good for the human to be alone, I shall make them a delivering counterpart. [...] And Yahweh God cast an deep sleep on the human, and they slept, and He took one of their sides and closed over the flesh where it had been, and Yahweh God built the side into a woman and He brought her to the human. And the human said, "This one at last, bone of my bones/and flesh of my flesh,/This one will be called "Woman" for from "Man" she was taken."

So there was 1 human that became 2 humans both man and woman. But then, Genesis 2:24 - the man and woman are married, cling to one another, and become one flesh (@sapphosremains I will respond to your question, but in short: I do believe Adam and Eve had sex in the garden, for the sake of union, pleasure, and expression of love tho not for procreation). So now the 1 that became 2 has become 1 again.

Basically this train of thought then led me to have some admittedly weird thoughts about the tree of life.

So the man and woman are invited to "eat eat" (literally what it says in hebrew lol) from the Tree of Life. Now, because God is the source of all Life, especially Eternal Life, and the Tree of Life gives eternal life to it's consumer, it stands to reason that eating of the Tree of Life is either physically or spiritually (take your pick) taking the wisdom, love, and life-giving presence of The Divine into yourself. Basically the tree is like a proto-Eucharist of sorts. It's communion by consumption. And consummation.

Now here's the weirder part: taking and eating fruit is a very common symbol for sex in the Tanakh, especially in the Song of Songs. The image is typically that of a man "eating" a woman's "fruit", which would put both Adam and Eve in the role, so to speak, of the "man/consumer" and God in the role of the "woman/fruit-giver" (think of like gender as theatre for how this logic works). The reverse is also true though: the point of the tree is to give birth to life inside of the humans, and in that way God is in the role of "man/seed-giver", and the humans are playing the role of "woman/birther".

Focusing on the first image tho, is how we get to the idea that God is a victim of sexual assault. The Tree of Life is not the only tree in the midst of the garden; The Tree of the Knowing of Good and Bad is also there, and since the Garden of Eden is a temple (do not have time to go into rn. Chart here) that means to me that the Tree of the Knowing of Good and Bad is also representative in some way of entering the Holy of Hollies taking of God's divine presence.

Except wrongly. It's like Aaron's sons storming into to God's presence and doing something violate God. But it's also like rape.

Part of the way biblical scholars read the bible is by paying attention to words and language. In Genesis 3 words like "see" and "beautiful/desirable to the eyes/sight as well as "take" and "gave" are all words that get used in similar scenes latter in the narrative. The woman "sees" that the fruit is "beautiful to the eyes" and she "takes" the fruit and "gave" it to her husband.

In Genesis 6 the Sons of God "see" that the daughters of humanity are "beautiful to the eyes" and then they "take" them as wives.

In Genesis 16 Sarai "sees" Hagar her slave girl, "takes" her and "gives" her to her husband. In the following Generation, Leah and Rachel will also "take and give" their slave girls to their husband.

In Genesis 19, it's horrible and the hyperlinks are moreso. There are 2 messengers of Yahweh going into a place that looks like Eden ("the Garden of Yahweh") to rain down fire on the city (the first time fire is mentioned is in Genesis 3 with the 2 cherubim). Incredibly suggestively. They go into Lot's house and all the men in the city, young and old, all the men of the city call out to lot so they can "know" these men (first time "knowledge" shows up is Genesis 2/3 with the Tree and then Genesis 4 with Adam and Eve). By which ofc they mean gang rape. Lot tells them not to do this "ra" thing" (Tree of Tov and Ra, Good and Bad) and offers up his daughters (!!!) instead. Because he is also a horrible guy. Anyway, he tells them to "do to them what is good in your eyes" ("the woman say the fruit was good to the eyes"). The men do not like this. Saying that because Lot is an immigrant he cannot bring justice on them. So they threaten to rape and kill him as well. Thankfully the messengers pull Lot to safety and blind the rapists so they cannot find the door (there is something important about the door but i need to meditate on it). The messengers tell Lot they are going to destroy the city because of "the outcry" which has reached Yahweh ("the outcry" is a reference to Cain's city in Gen 4, and the rape of human women and the violent warrior kings of Genesis 6). So the messengers then "rain down fire from the skies" (same language as the Great Flood which happened because spiritual beings raped human women and had violent children. Now violent human beings are trying to gang rape spiritual beings). After Lot and his daughters escape the city, the duaghters of Lot get him drunk with wine (which is ofc made from fruit) and then rape him (Ham did the same to Noah/Noah's Wife after the Flood).

That was a lot. This literature is incredibly sophisticated and this story is incredibly dense. And dark.

My point here is that one of the main ways the biblical authors talk about the abuse of women, is by using these sets of words: men see that a woman is beautiful to the eyes and take her for themselves. Or a woman sees that her slave girl is beautiful to the eyes and good for childbearing and so they take her and give them to their husbands. Eve and Adam do the same thing. They look at the tree (which I said is God's intimate presence), and then violate God by breaching a boundary that They had laid out. The analogy that came into my head when i first realized that was that of a boyfriend and girlfriend, and the girlfriend wants to wait to have sex, not as in "never" but as in "not yet", but then her boyfriend goes and assaults her. That's the same thing happening in the Garden of Eden before the Tree and why it makes me soooooo mad when people act like God was unjust in her banishment of the humans. All the language used here, is that of rape.

So... yeah. This is poorly written and I probably could've done much better writing this but it does make me very uncomfortable (to put it lightly). But I also think that seeing this in the narrative can be helpful for people who have experience the same thing or something similar. God suffers with her people.

You all owe me a nap and some cookies now lol. God bless <333

[idylls-of-the-divine-romance]

Thank you for the chocolate chips and milk; Lord knows I needed that. (I totally understand. I've been completely wrecked for a while now)

I really have no notes; per you see things with a poignant power and I adore that. Thank you and I'm incredibly sorry. I also hated this interpretation, wanted to deny it as well. Still do to be honest

Would love to hear you elaborate on God is a SA victim if you’re up for it -Jo blood-is-the-life

Hiii @blood-is-the-life (tagging you so you'll get a notif when I answer). @ray-moo you also wanted to know about this. Also: @prosphoramuncher and @theclonehusband

*sighs* I meant to write this essay about God and androgyny and duality in Genesis 1-3 (which connects into the idea of God as being an sa victim) for a while now. @joanofarcs-stigmata I told you I'd tag you in this essay when I wrote it so here we go.

Okay, so let's start with ha-adam, the human, in Genesis 2. "Then the Yahweh God molded the human, humus from the soil, and breathed into their nostrils the breath of life; and the human became a living being." So there is one human, and as you can tell I side with the interpretation that said human is a hermaphrodite. I don't find in the word "adam" any indication that the human is male, and think rather the pronoun "he" is used just as a default.

Next however, Yahweh looks and "Yahweh God said, 'It is not good for the human to be alone, I shall make them a delivering counterpart. [...] And Yahweh God cast an deep sleep on the human, and they slept, and He took one of their sides and closed over the flesh where it had been, and Yahweh God built the side into a woman and He brought her to the human. And the human said, "This one at last, bone of my bones/and flesh of my flesh,/This one will be called "Woman" for from "Man" she was taken."

So there was 1 human that became 2 humans both man and woman. But then, Genesis 2:24 - the man and woman are married, cling to one another, and become one flesh (@sapphosremains I will respond to your question, but in short: I do believe Adam and Eve had sex in the garden, for the sake of union, pleasure, and expression of love tho not for procreation). So now the 1 that became 2 has become 1 again.

Basically this train of thought then led me to have some admittedly weird thoughts about the tree of life.

So the man and woman are invited to "eat eat" (literally what it says in hebrew lol) from the Tree of Life. Now, because God is the source of all Life, especially Eternal Life, and the Tree of Life gives eternal life to it's consumer, it stands to reason that eating of the Tree of Life is either physically or spiritually (take your pick) taking the wisdom, love, and life-giving presence of The Divine into yourself. Basically the tree is like a proto-Eucharist of sorts. It's communion by consumption. And consummation.

Now here's the weirder part: taking and eating fruit is a very common symbol for sex in the Tanakh, especially in the Song of Songs. The image is typically that of a man "eating" a woman's "fruit", which would put both Adam and Eve in the role, so to speak, of the "man/consumer" and God in the role of the "woman/fruit-giver" (think of like gender as theatre for how this logic works). The reverse is also true though: the point of the tree is to give birth to life inside of the humans, and in that way God is in the role of "man/seed-giver", and the humans are playing the role of "woman/birther".

Focusing on the first image tho, is how we get to the idea that God is a victim of sexual assault. The Tree of Life is not the only tree in the midst of the garden; The Tree of the Knowing of Good and Bad is also there, and since the Garden of Eden is a temple (do not have time to go into rn. Chart here) that means to me that the Tree of the Knowing of Good and Bad is also representative in some way of entering the Holy of Hollies taking of God's divine presence.

Except wrongly. It's like Aaron's sons storming into to God's presence and doing something violate God. But it's also like rape.

Part of the way biblical scholars read the bible is by paying attention to words and language. In Genesis 3 words like "see" and "beautiful/desirable to the eyes/sight as well as "take" and "gave" are all words that get used in similar scenes latter in the narrative. The woman "sees" that the fruit is "beautiful to the eyes" and she "takes" the fruit and "gave" it to her husband.

In Genesis 6 the Sons of God "see" that the daughters of humanity are "beautiful to the eyes" and then they "take" them as wives.

In Genesis 16 Sarai "sees" Hagar her slave girl, "takes" her and "gives" her to her husband. In the following Generation, Leah and Rachel will also "take and give" their slave girls to their husband.

In Genesis 19, it's horrible and the hyperlinks are moreso. There are 2 messengers of Yahweh going into a place that looks like Eden ("the Garden of Yahweh") to rain down fire on the city (the first time fire is mentioned is in Genesis 3 with the 2 cherubim). Incredibly suggestively. They go into Lot's house and all the men in the city, young and old, all the men of the city call out to lot so they can "know" these men (first time "knowledge" shows up is Genesis 2/3 with the Tree and then Genesis 4 with Adam and Eve). By which ofc they mean gang rape. Lot tells them not to do this "ra" thing" (Tree of Tov and Ra, Good and Bad) and offers up his daughters (!!!) instead. Because he is also a horrible guy. Anyway, he tells them to "do to them what is good in your eyes" ("the woman say the fruit was good to the eyes"). The men do not like this. Saying that because Lot is an immigrant he cannot bring justice on them. So they threaten to rape and kill him as well. Thankfully the messengers pull Lot to safety and blind the rapists so they cannot find the door (there is something important about the door but i need to meditate on it). The messengers tell Lot they are going to destroy the city because of "the outcry" which has reached Yahweh ("the outcry" is a reference to Cain's city in Gen 4, and the rape of human women and the violent warrior kings of Genesis 6). So the messengers then "rain down fire from the skies" (same language as the Great Flood which happened because spiritual beings raped human women and had violent children. Now violent human beings are trying to gang rape spiritual beings). After Lot and his daughters escape the city, the duaghters of Lot get him drunk with wine (which is ofc made from fruit) and then rape him (Ham did the same to Noah/Noah's Wife after the Flood).

That was a lot. This literature is incredibly sophisticated and this story is incredibly dense. And dark.

My point here is that one of the main ways the biblical authors talk about the abuse of women, is by using these sets of words: men see that a woman is beautiful to the eyes and take her for themselves. Or a woman sees that her slave girl is beautiful to the eyes and good for childbearing and so they take her and give them to their husbands. Eve and Adam do the same thing. They look at the tree (which I said is God's intimate presence), and then violate God by breaching a boundary that They had laid out. The analogy that came into my head when i first realized that was that of a boyfriend and girlfriend, and the girlfriend wants to wait to have sex, not as in "never" but as in "not yet", but then her boyfriend goes and assaults her. That's the same thing happening in the Garden of Eden before the Tree and why it makes me soooooo mad when people act like God was unjust in her banishment of the humans. All the language used here, is that of rape.

So... yeah. This is poorly written and I probably could've done much better writing this but it does make me very uncomfortable (to put it lightly). But I also think that seeing this in the narrative can be helpful for people who have experience the same thing or something similar. God suffers with her people.

You all owe me a nap and some cookies now lol. God bless <333