#obviously we're talking about jason!robin or dick!robin here

[batfam-stuff-posts-0]

Bruce: *sobbing* I found this puppy waiting outside. Look at him! Isn't he adorable? His face is so cute and sweet and he's got such big eyes and-

Clark: Bruce, that's Robin.

[jayladfanpage]

Saw a post saying that Cassandra Cain would hate Jason Todd and I'm sorry but. Are we talking about the same Cass Cain? Are we?

I understand the sentiment of "Cass would be outraged by Jason's morals" (when we're talking New Earth, at least,) that makes sense. I do think she would hate his ideals. Not Jason himself, though.

Cassandra knows death. Literally the thing that motivates her to be a hero is that, because of her ability to read body language, she experienced death after her first kill. She didn't just watch that man die, she died with him. She knows exactly what Jason felt like when he died, she knows how much it fundamentally changes somebody. I think she wouldn't understand how Jason changed for the worse, but she, out of everyone in the Bats, would actually, genuinely be able to see the boy Jason used to be when looking at Red Hood without separating Hood and Robin in her mind. Your death isn't something you ever forget.

Also, not only does she know the pain Jason went through when he died, she knows the grief Bruce went through, and is still going through when she finds out about Jason's death.

Obviously, everyone loves this scene (Batgirl (2000) #7) because it perfectly encapsulates both Cass' and Bruce's ideas of what makes a vigilante/hero. But there's a second layer to this, which is that Cass, who speaks in body language, feels Bruce's grief. In this scene, Cass isn't just shocked to learn that a Robin died, she's mourning Jason just as much as Bruce is. She can feel all of his regrets, all of his pain, all of his guilt. Cassandra would never be able to look at Red Hood without remembering what Bruce felt, what she felt, when he died.

Lastly, while Cass' morals aren't as much about "second chances" as Bruce's morals are, she is still desperate to save people. And Jason's main thing is that Bruce (and Dick, I'll make a meta post about Brothers in Blood at some point) can't save him. Saving Jason Todd goes directly against Bruce and Cassandra's morals, but another thing that Bruce and Cass have in common is how unwilling they are to give up. Everybody will be saved, or they'll both die trying to make it so. "Everybody" includes Jason, who's always worn his heart on his sleeve, who most likely wouldn't even try to hide his emotions/body language from Cass, because he never bothers to hide his pain, is always begging to be saved, just in a way that Batman can't fix. Jason doesn't just need help, he wants it. So Cass would never hate him, because she sees that Jason wants to be fixed, wants to change the man that he is, but feels like he can't do that until Joker dies, as seen here:

(Urban Legends (2020) #6)

And I think Cass would see that and would do everything she could to save Jason from himself without killing Joker. She could never hate Jason, not when she so fundamentally understands him and his struggle to believe he could ever be a good person. She knows his guilt doesn't absolve him just like her guilt doesn't absolve her, but Bruce gave her a chance to be a hero when he saw that she'd changed, became a better person. And I think she would go her entire life trying to give Jason the chance to change, too.

[lacrimosathedark]

I have so many reasons why I love JayRoy, but there is one that is a surprisingly big factor while also completely meaningless and coincidental, but adorable to think about.

Allow me to show you Lian Harper of Earth-22, aka the Kingdom Come universe.

This pretty freckled redhead is indeed, believe it or not, Lian Harper. Unfortunately there are no good pictures of her in her originating story.

Lucky for us, her and her team of Titans appear in Titans 23-25

and the team includes other Titans kids

Darkstar, (possibly) Robert Long, Donna's son Nightstar, Mar'i Grayson, Dick and Kori's daughter Kid Flash, Irey West, Wally's daughter Aquagirl, Tula, Garth's daughter

I'm not sure where the name "Darkstar" comes from if I'm completely honest, but Nightstar is obviously just smashing Nightwing and Starfire together, and the other two are legacy names. Lian's name is...not like that. And it's hilarious to me. Just...

You read that correctly. There is a future version of Lian Harper whose superhero name is Red Hood.

Now this is more because one of the names Roy used was Red Arrow, and with Arrowfam's whole Robin Hood schtick, Little Red Riding Hood seemed like a fun play. And this is before Graduation Day, so I'm not sure if Jason was even planned to return yet. It literally has nothing to do with Jason or Joker but that's kind of why I love it so much. This literally has nothing to do with who we know as Red Hood AND YET. THE CONNECTION IS THERE.

It's just one of those funny coincidences that I love.

For funsies, here's more pictures of her.

You can tell Roy has a toddler because while not knowing this is also his daughter, he is talking to her like a naughty dog lmao

Despite the red hair, she looks like her mom...and as much as I hate Cheshire, that's still kinda sweet and really cute.

They're only there for a short while, and then the Titans forget they existed immediately after, but it's still nice.

This outfit also inspired my redesign for Lian's hero costume. I love the shoulder cape. Just give the hood some cat ears and we're good.

Lian is my favorite.

[dairy-farmer]

Still~ thinking about Time Travel~☆

Bruce would... wait... ACTUALLY??? EVERYONE would fuckin give a LIMB to "go back and Do It Right"(tm)?

Oh :Dc Oh No~ that's a FANTASTIC thought~☆

Some big Everything's Fucked Event. Like when Superboy Prime PUNCHED REALITY and broke it, bringing Jason back. Maybe some shit head reality warper collecting the seven sacred McGuffins or what have you. But they? Can't stop him.

Some of them last longer then others. But the idiot BROKE reality. And eventually? It resets itself.

But!

Tim died BEFORE the Break. Everyone else died AFTER. It was Heroic, of course, tried to destroy the last object before the reality warper could get it. But the bastard already had 6. He got Tim first.

And... they had all been drifting apart. Strained relationships, traumas upon traumas. Never knowing what to SAY. Wanting to fix things. Always somehow making things worse. Trying to do better. And then?

Tim is just... just GONE.

Then they die, Reality in fragments. Like some fucked up Alice in Wonderland fever dream. And? Wake up at different points in their own history.

Bruce blinks. And there is Tim. Tiny and determined to save him from himself. He's so small.

Bruce is collapsing to his knees and dragging him into a hug before he can think of anything else. His son. His boy. Tim. Warm and perfect, uncertain as he awkwardly hugs him back.

And this time he's a better mentor. Past mistakes always haunting him. Better food, better teaching, better gear. Better body management. Stretching and massages. Bruce is... obsessive, unsurprisingly, over Taking Care of Tim. He can't fail again. HAS to be better.

It's inevitable, that it gets weird. Started OUT invasive, after all. Since sexual wellness IS important to mental and emotional regulation, that has to be scheduled too. What do you mean "you don't"? Robin, it's stress relief.

Of course Bruce will show you. Yes of COURSE he's going to get you toys, show you how to use them. No, no, you're doing it wrong. Not like THAT, like THIS. See how he's doing it?

All so very educational.

But! Oh no! What if Robin wants to DATE? It was a disaster for him last time. Bruce better show him. And obviously if he's already doing THAT, he should show him how to put the moves on someone. And since we're doing THAT, it's only reasonable to follow through. Robin can't patrol distracted! That's not safe!

So he HAS to fuck him.

And really, if he's done it ONCE, he might as well teach him what he knows. Who better, then someone Robin can trust?

Which is what Dick stumbles into. Somehow in the past. With an even MORE neurotic Bruce who's-! Who's-! He'll KILL YO-! Heeeey there Timmy! Just need to talk to Bruce real quick, so... huh?

And that's when it hits Dick like a gut punch? That THIS Tim? No ugliness between them. Is excited to see him. Greets him with a hug. Warm and cute and bouncy. Wants... wants help... practicing...

Dicks eyes shoot to Bruce. Back to Tim. He keeps his Nightwing mask, firmly in place as the part of what he WANTS fight like dogs inside him. He shouldn't. Needs to stop this NOW. It's already WAY out of hand...

Y-Yeah, Timmers, of course he'll help.

What're big Brothers for?

And Tim is terrible at riding him. Gets too overwhelmed and freezes up, again and again. Is so SENSITIVE. It's so cute Dick can barely stand it, as he lifts and sinks him down. Watches him pant and squirm. Let's him cling like Dick is the only thing holding him together.

He's never been harder.

Jason, of course, could really only blink awake in one place. Because his luck is SHIT. Titans Tower. He thinks it's hell. Purgatory maybe. A punishment for what he did here. Goes to face it. Only...

Where's Timbers?

In his room. Having "Me Time". Face down, ass in the air, vibrator set to "Destroy Me". He didn't notice SHIT when the power cut. The world could end but until he's gotten off? Robin's not here right now, leave a message.

Jason decides this is a very fucked up wet dream to have while Dying, but? Screw it.

So he invites himself to the party. Pants open, cock out. Vibrator removed. World rocked.

He fucks Tim's hot little puss just the way he's always wanted too. Deep and with intent to fill it. Then he has his perky little ass, just cause. Fills that too. Eventually realizes this is NOT the afterlife or a dream, but is too busy pounding the best fuck of his life to care.

Cares a LOT more when an Out For Blood Half Kryptonian RIPS the door from the wall, along with the frame and some of the wall itself. While he is balls deep in Robin. Whoooo he may have fucked sopping wet and sloppy. While being a notorious Crime Lord.

Oh, Right.

He should ru-Shit! *sounds of Wrath And Kryptonian Violence*

It DOES bring the family back together. Even if Kon vows to NEVER forgive or forget. Hisses like an outraged cat at the mere mention of Red Hood. But things are great! Then Talia does what she do. Fucks up Bruce's mental health. THIS time however, he was aware it was coming.

And Damian, last Survivor of the Bat Clan, blinks into awareness to Tim offering him his hand. Excited to have a little brother.

Ah. Timothy looks... young. He no longer feels threatened by him, as he once did. Damian grew up. He shakes his hand. Is WELCOMED. Doted on.

Finds himself... Timothy's? Favorite? The baby of the family. None can touch him. One look and Timothy will come snarling to his defense. He need only pout and all will be delivered to his feet. Hilarious, how different it could have been.

But.

He is not blind. He is not the only one back in time. And the changes...

He can not argue that the family is not CLOSER, but must they act like animals? Panting after Timothy? Yet on the other hand... being so doted upon? Has brought up... feelings.

So... awkwardly... he, like a child who's had a bad dream, shuffles into Tim's room in the night. Is welcomed with open arms. Cuddled, fingers running through his hair, as he with fumbling hands explores. Guided in and pulled into Tim's arms, so he can rutt desperately into Tim's body, while Tim sleepily holds him close.

Random sparks of pleasure shooting through Tim's body as Damian manages to thrust just right, every so often. Praising him regardless. Because he's doing so good, is Tim's precious younger brother.

Letting Damian cum himself exhausted before getting himself off. Damian dazed and worshipful, clinging as dozes off. Dick finding them in the morning and pouting because this means no Morning Fuckies. Damian's totally gonna hog Tim's attention.

Being right.

Bat Clan Wars over Timmy Time. Tim playing the mediator. That leading to sharing.

Better More Tim Fucking Time Line!

What say you?

-🐼🐼🐼

all of them using time travel to act on deeply repressed feelings for tim they never acted on before 😍😍😍!!

[laufire]

I'm not replying to those posts because contrary to popular belief I'm not THAT much of a killjoy, I get that there's some degree of tongue-in-cheek, blah blah blah, but. just my two cents.

I'm seeing a lot of attention to jason & alfred's dynamic lately that's all "oh alfred HATES jason, thinks he's the worst, jason's the one that considers alfred family but alfred's classist ass hates him" and listen, by all means, insult alfred, I don't want this to come across as me looking like I give a fuck about how you talk about his character lol. he is not just classist but straight up praises feudal England as the "better days" ajskkdkd. but alfred was perfectly nice in his interactions during jason's time at the manor, telling bruce unprompted that he likes having the kid around, helping him with & praising him about school assignments... and there's "the delusions of alfred pennyworth" in gotham knights #34 aka that adorable, bittersweet story where alfred sees jason's ghost playfully mess around the house.

my point is that alfred is not a consistent character in the comics. you could say that about many people in detective comics comics but imo alfred is a particularly malleable character that functions more like a prop than an independent entity. I think you can unite all of those things into a compelling picture, if you cared to. that compelling picture is not gonna be "lol alfred hated jason and wanted that street urchin gone from minute one 🤮" like that's just... flat and banal. similar to the "lol tim hated robin!jason for replacing his Idol, Dick the True Robin, he hated jason and celebrated his death!!". it's just taken a fanon trend you don't like (alfred behaving grandfatherly with jason or being a Jason Understander, jason being "tim's robin" and all the titan's tower tropes that come with it. I get it, I find those boring as hell too), and going so far in the other direction in the name of "canon compliance" that you actually just land into a particularly baffling, irksome caricature that ignores canon just as much (not that I think it's going to take off, fic wise, just like I don't think "tim hates jason" has. because again, there's nothing there to pull from in a creative way, while the uwu fanon, like it or not, at least enables some level of inventiveness).

meanwhile, look. I don't incorporate whatever prime earth!jason does into my belief system as a general rule (unless it's good and I like it. that happens rarely), and either way at the current point I'm at there's very little to say about jason's view of alfred (which I'm sure will change when alfred is killed and gets canonised). there's that scene where he and tim shit talk his cooking only behind his back (waffles, iirc??), or one scene where alfred scolds jason for not seeing how much he was mourned or something, and then geoff johns tries to convince me it was alfred who put up jason's memorial case in the cave, as if there's a universe where that makes any goddamn sense. and to my knowledge, there's not even an equivalent to alfred's shitty inner monologue about kid!jason in UTRH, so those things don't even exist together (UTRH would have to exists in the first place lol).

regardless, focusing on new earth!jason, post-resurrection... I don't think he mentions alfred once. the very few times we get a peek into his mind (lost days) there's zero attention paid to alfred. he seeks out ways to connect with dick or tim (incredibly unhinged ways but, hey). and obviously bruce is the most important person in his world. but he never seeks out alfred, and jason was someone who reached out to people he wanted to connect with (again, in fucked up ways, we're not discussing that at the moment xDD).

I don't want to turn this into the reverse myself ("lol jason couldn't care less about alfred, it's alfred who has the messy feelings here"), which would be equally flat and banal. there's, again, a wide array of options to be taken with this information to put together a compelling dynamic. it's just that "jason holds alfred in the highest regard, over everyone else in the bat clan, and alfred thinks of him as nothing but a pest he's glad to be rid of from the get go" is not something that I see compatible with what I, personally, know and believe of canon.

[danny-chase]

The whole 'Lazarus Pit Madness' sounds like something some author decided to explore in a fic and suddenly BAM, everyone was using that or thinking it was canon. It happens a lot in the fandom, like Stephanie loving waffles or baby stalker Tim Drake. Honestly I'm really curious if the whole "Bruce started using Jason's death as a cautionary tale/he dismissed Jason's accomplishments as Robin" is true or also popular fanon. Any thoughts on that one?

So like... it's hard to say and it's also tricky territory because author's 100% come off as victim blamey when they have characters talk about Jason as Robin because they needed to somehow justify Tim being Robin after Jason died.

Some of this also has to do with the differences between pre-crisis and post-crisis Jason. A lot of the way fandom thinks of Jason's time as Robin seems to be influenced by both - the stealing tires off the Batmobile comes from post-crisis and the happy go lucky kid comes more from pre-crisis. Post-crisis Jason also wasn't around for a ton of time before he died, but he's the one all forms of modern Jason are based off of (in flashbacks as well). (And side note, it's not 100% clear how much of pre-crisis appearances carried over, but I'm 95% sure Jason's appearances in The New Teen Titans/The New Titans carry over because of a few lines surrounding Dick reacting to Jason's death).

Part of the reason fandom claims Jason was turned into a cautionary tale by Bruce is that whenever characters think about Jason they describe him as reckless. These characters do not remember pre-crisis Jason. This is the Jason they remember:

Batman (1940) #415

In this case Jason attacks Crane by himself, putting on a gas mask and throwing a bucket down to smash the glass... despite Bruce telling him not to. He does succeed at taking down the scarecrow but Bruce is annoyed because he didn't follow the instructions and doesn't want him "taking any unnecessary risk before I think he's ready."

It's hardly the only time Bruce scolds Jason for being reckless, in post-crisis, Jason swaps himself for hostages in his very first mission

Batman (1940) #410

(He's also a little nerd which is hilarious like do you mind if i stay up to do extra homework ssbjfjeksks). But I do want to highlight here that at least at first Bruce saw the recklessness not as a problem. In the issue after this he's momentarily dissapointed by Jason losing his temper against Two-Face (he just found out Two-Face was presumed responsible for his father's death).

In #416 Brue calls Jason "sloppy" while narrating and notes that it's not easy keeping him alive. Dick is annoyed because Jason messed up his drug bust (by the end of the issue they do kick ass together and Dick leaves on good terms).

By #421 we're here

Batman (1940) #421

Notably after this is the Felipe Garzonas case and Jason dies shortly after. My point in all this is laying out the context in which Bruce viewed Jason leading up to his death.

Here's some of his narration from #426, the first issue of death in the family.

"I should have known something like this would happen. Robin-- Jason Todd-- had been acting odd of late. Very moody. Resentful. Reckless. That attitude is about to get him killed."

"He obviously has a dangerously high level of aggressive energy to work off."

Basically Bruce comes to the conclusion that he should have like gotten Jason help coping with his parents deaths before he started training him to be Robin and fires Jason from Robin, and from there you know the story. All of this is to point out that Bruce watched Jason steadily grow more violent and reckless up to his death (and before I get angry anons saying all those people deserved it, yes the reason for Jason's actions is understandable, but to Bruce, this is what he's observing). I've seen people almost be surprised when it comes up in recent canon (most recently with the Nightwing Annual). But they started the whole "Jason is reckless" thing right after post-crisis hit.

Now with this added context, when the characters talk about Jason post him dying what they're saying isn't quite as idk damning. Jason dying also recontextualized how Bruce saw his relationship with Dick (remember when he said being reckless was something Dick would have done)

From The New Titans #55

Bruce: "You were lucky. When you didn't listen to me, your injuries weren't fatal. Of course, by the time I properly trained you--"

Dick: "Bruce, c'mon... lay off. I'm not here to fight."

And later

Bruce: "Why did I think I needed a partner? They slow you down! They make you worry about them rather than doing your job! He wouldn't listen. He wanted to do everything his way. He was just like you. In a few years I would have had to fire him as I did to you."

And so to some extent Dick has also been recontextualized as a reckless Robin in the modern era, most notably in his Robin: Year One story and in his origin story which has been told countless times. So this phenomenon isn't unique to Jason it's part of how DC justifies Bruce taking the first two Robins in, in the first place.

Now getting to the times in canon where Jason's been discussed to the younger members of the Batfam. First off we have Tim, who already knows Jason died and wasn't really told anything about it. In his introduction he kind of has a weird bias against Jason.

From Batman (1940) #440

Tim (narrating): "He [Bruce] seemed happier with Dick."

He also is pretty obsessed with Dick. Even recounting their first meeting he talks about remembering nothing about the circus except Dick and the show, and had tons of nightmares due to the whole watching Dick's parents die thing, which cemented the quadruple flip in his brain. So he's pretty biased. Anyways, no one actually told him what really happens and he makes a lot of assumptions about Jason, based on the news reports and clips he's seen of post-crisis Jason (he was also following the news on Dick as well). Here's how he talks about Jason (and remember, Dick and Bruce haven't actually told him anything about Jason):

He's kinder in his analysis of Jason here, Detective Comics #618:

Tim (narrating): "When Gotham needed him, he was there. When the Batman needed him, he was there. He was a hero. But he was nothing special, really. Just a boy, who was taught-- trained-- brought to his full potential by someone who knew how. Just a boy... like me. I can do it. I know I can. One day I'll be as good as Jason. One day I'll wear the suit."

From Batman (1940) #445, he's more judgemental:

Tim (narrating): "You think my anger will boil over, the way Jason's did. I can assure you, it won't."

And in the next issue he hallucinates/dreams (he wakes up at the end) Dick and Jason and here's what his mind conjures up:

Batman (1940) #456

😬😬😬😬 So 100% Jason was turned into a cautionary tale here, but it wasn't by Bruce it was by Tim. It's not completely bad takes all the time, though, the arc shows he feels pressure to live up to the mantle's expectations (Dick making the mantle a world wide icon and Jason dying for it are 2 things he cites).

Now the next time I recall Jason being brought up by Tim is when Dick and Tim have the following conversation, and for context this is also the issue where Dick tells the story of almost getting beaten to death by Two Face.

Robin (1993) #0 aka Tim forces Dick to talk about his trauma because we needed exposition

Dick (about Two Face story): "Look, can we talk about this later?"

Tim: "I'm sorry, Nightwing. It's just that you can answer lot of questions for me."

Dick: "Okay, fire another one at me."

Tim: "How about Jason Todd?"

Dick: "You don't throw softballs, do you? Jason was a different case. He was a street kid, a thief. Batman saw something in Jason-- a toughness. Maybe he decided it was time for a new kind of Robin. Jason had the right stuff. He held his own against the worst Gotham had to offer. But Jason was reckless. The role of Robin turned him into a daredevil. He took chances. Openly defied Batman's orders."

<cutting in for a second, you'll notice Dick is repeating to Tim something Bruce told him back in their fight in The New Titans #55>

Dick: "And that's what killed him. He went solo against the Joker. I never thought there'd be another Robin after that."

And I'm not sure why Dick came to this conclusion, unlike Tim he wasn't following the news, and he met Jason. Bruce never actually told Dick how Jason died, so my assumption is that at some point he read the case file, which may or may not have had Bruce noting that he fired Jason for being reckless right before Jason died. And the whole "he died because he was like you" thing definitely left an impact onto how Dick saw Jason. Dick's not lecturing Tim here though about some kind of cautionary tale, Tim asked about Jason and he answered based off his post-crisis memories of Jason.

Post this, Tim brings Jason up in this argument insinuating he thinks Jason was reckless:

Teen Titans (2003) #6

Bruce: "You need to listen to reason, Robin. You're acting too emotional. Disobeying orders, like--"

Tim: "Like Jason?"

Bruce: "You're nothing like Jason."

And being willing to bring up Jason in arguments isn't a one time thing.

Batman: Gotham Knights #26

Dick: "One: as long as you're with Batman-- or me-- you're safe. Neither of us would ever let anything happen to you. Two: We don't quit. Not once has anyone who knows Batman's mission failed to get up again after being knocked down. And three: Batman doesn't kill. Not ever."

Tim: "One: Jason Todd. Two: James Gordon. Three: So far. Sorry."

Which is off the beaten track of cautionary tale but it's still not very respectful of Jason's memory (at least he apologizes in Gotham Knights though).

So that's it for Tim, moving onto Cass. This is the first time Jason's brought up by Bruce to a protege (that I've found). For context Cass lost her perfect fighting skills and Bruce fires her from Batgirl because he doesn't want her getting killed:

Batgirl (2000) #7

This is a pretty far cry from the Bruce we saw before, talking about how reckless Jason was and how Dick was lucky, etc. etc. Out of universe I think this is partly because we don't need to justify Cass becoming Batgirl the way there needed to be justification for Tim (your average joe) becoming Robin. In universe it could point to Bruce having some growth and accepting that all of them are reckless (unfortunately he looses it by the time UTRH happens). To me Jason isn't a cautionary tale here, rather he's the reason Bruce is so committed to keeping his proteges safe.

However probably the scene that people took and ran with is this one (link) from Detective Comics #790. Bruce draws parallels between Jason and Steph here, describing them both at reckless (again, he's not wrong, but he's still a hypocrite), and saying "maybe it's not too late for Stephanie." But he doesn't use this as a cautionary tale for someone straight to their face, he's telling this to Cass, and only Cass. He doesn't go blabbing this theory to Barbara, Dick, or Tim. And it does come out of a legitimate concern of seeing areas where Steph and Jason were similar. However he is using Jason's death to justify keeping Steph out of action. (Side note: which is complete bullshit, the way he treats Steph screams of misogyny because she's not all that much different than Tim and it's implied by Alfred he used her as Robin to bait Tim into coming back) Anyways, this all happens right before War Games and so... this was basically a scene foreshadowing Steph's death.

Something else to point out is Cass notes that no one ever talks about Jason. They don't bring him up willy nilly - neither Dick or Bruce likes talking about Jason.

Onto Damian. I think if Dick tried lecturing Damian about how he needs to be careful or something because Jason died, Damian would call him a loser. After the events of Battle for the Cowl, Damian does his homework on the Red Hood, as even though no one told him anything, he knows enough to insult Jason.

Batman & Robin (2009) #5

Dick: "Jason Todd. Be careful, he's--"

Damian: "The second Robin, the one after you. He looked different the last time we slapped him around."

<side note: the last time they "slapped him around" jason shot damian in the chest and nearly killed him but go off damian 😂>

Damian: "Back for more? I heard you had your brains beaten out by the Joker, but I had no idea you were this big of an idiot."

<side note again: Jason is firmly established as a villain at this point, Damian has 0 allegiances to him and no reason to be kind, especially because Jason nearly killed him last time>

Later in this issue we get Dick's incredibly brief explanation to Damian being:

Dick: "Bruce thought he could save Jason... and he might have if the Joker hadn't gotten to him first with a crowbar and high explosives."

So to Damian, Jason was very much not a cautionary tale.

As for the other kids? Steph never even heard about Jason, because the writers never took her as a serious part of the Batfam (outside of maybe Dixon, who's own writing was steeped in misogyny). Duke roasts Jason for dying, which is hilarious, but in the new52 and rebirth Jason's alive, so there's not really a point to cautionary tales. I don't even know if Harper knows he died.

TL;DR: In the comics I've read, Jason's not treated as a cautionary tale by Bruce for the most part, with a couple exceptions that I've listed here. It's not anywhere close to the magnitude of what fandom makes it out to be 🤷‍♀️

[stxleslyds]

you know how dc keeps forcing this sudden "we're a family" narrative out of nowhere? I'd love batfam content but years of hurt among them make the recent content seem unearned.

bc you know more about dick and jason than the others, how do you think they would realistically become family to each other, or would it even be in character for them to be the "bros" they're written as now?

Oh anon, this question is amazing, I love it! I saw it when I woke up and since then my brain has been brewing this answer, I was thinking about it as I brushed my teeth and as I was making breakfast, and now I am ready to give you the answer, I hope you enjoy reading it as much as I enjoyed thinking/writing about it!

DC keeps forcing the wrong relationships, and they keep forcing the wrong centre of this supposed family, they make it out to be the Bat-Family when in reality the Bat (Bruce) should have never been invited to this party.

This is why I give you the… Dick-Family!

Oh yeah baby, I am going there. Dick is the centre of this “family”, he is the guy who is actually connected with everyone, he has been around for so long and he has been present when almost all of the remaining characters were introduced! Bruce might have come first but that guy has nothing on Dick Grayson.

Dick has cared and loved for everyone in this family in a true and beautiful way, no matter how much fanon and DC try to tell us otherwise. This man was an amazing son to Bruce and Alfred (my love for Alfred and Dick is brought to you by @hood-ex), a fantastic brother to Jason, Tim and Cass as well as a phenomenal father/older brother to Damian.

Dick Grayson is the centre of this whole thing, and thanks to DC now being an Omniverse I will be able to explain my line of thoughts. But first let me clear some ideas up.

The way I see it Jason would only get along good enough with Dick. I am not here for Jason and Tim having brunch together (honestly, Lobdell, what were you thinking), Jason never cared for Tim, and then writers that didn’t know how the Red Hood worked made him try to kill Tim so, to me, that relationship is non-existent, Jason doesn’t really perceive Tim (yet).

Jason and Damian, listen, I know that there is this fanon theory that Jason knew and cared for Damian while he was in the League, but that is just fanon talk and it doesn’t really fit in canon either. Jason wasn’t really capable of doing much other than fight, and after he was put in the Lazarus Pit he either had to leave because Ra’s wanted to kill him or Talia took him to the All-Castle. So, Jason’s only real interactions with Damian would be when Jason was written as a crazy, blood thirsty dude that actually tried to harm a child. So, him and Damian wouldn’t really have a good relationship (yet).

Jason and Cass… that’s just a no. Jason and Barbara, I mean Barbara was older than Dick when she first met Jason, so they wouldn’t have much of a relationship.

Now, lets move on to how I will make the Dick-Family work.

Dick (bless him) actually talks and listens to people, unlike Bruce, so the change would start there. Let’s set the timeline, I will stand right after the events of Under the Red Hood. Bruce just chose saving Joker over letting Jason kill the Joker and the building they were in exploded.

Batman keeps on being himself (trash) and Jason, having survived the explosion, moves on to keep on building his empire. He really wants to control the drug trade in Gotham, so he works on that, he slowly but surely takes his place as a drug lord again and is a constant pain in Black Mask’s ass.

While Jason is doing that, Dick is trying to put together his life after Bludhaven was attacked with Chemo. Let’s say that Bludhaven isn’t completely erased from the map but he does have to leave so the city can be re-built. He goes to Gotham, where the Red Hood works.

Let’s say that Alfred told Dick who was under the Red Hood, so Dick being a good brother goes looking for Jason. Their first interaction out of the mask wouldn’t be nice, Jason barely remembers his life before the pit and he really is convinced that Dick is the absolute worst.

But then Jason being a nosy man would make an appearance, for some reason, let’s say that he hacks into the Batcave and when he does that he finds some footage… The footage in question would be the one which shows Bruce punching Dick and sort of blaming him for Jason’s death. (Oh yeah, I am going there). The footage will make a memory come to mind, Dick taking Jason on a skying trip.

So, the next time that Dick and Jason see each other is because Jason went looking for Dick and here is where these two actually talk. The way I see it, Dick is more flexible with the no killing rule, he has worked many times with people that are villains or that just have different ways of doing things. So, I think that he would understand where Jason’s coming from with his ideas. As they begin to understand one another Jason begins to recover more and more memories from before the Pit.

They get together once a week and they chat about life as well as vigilante stuff. They become friends.

At the same time Dick is also very good friends with Tim and also acts like the amazing big brother he is with him. They chat, they sometimes work together and one day they come across a very complicated situation involving a new drug being introduced in Gotham.

Dick would call Jason and now both of them and Tim are reunited in a safe house working together so this new drug doesn’t fall in the wrong hands. Jason and Tim wouldn’t really like each other. Both of them are there for Dick and because they have to get the job done.

That’s how I see Dick forming the Dick-Family unconsciously. Hell, I will introduce Barbara now. Do you guys remember that in UtRH Barbara was mad with Bruce and didn’t want to work with him but she was still in contact with Dick? Well, I am using that so it can fit my narrative.

Dick, Jason and Tim need more intel so Dick calls Oracle (real Oracle) and because Barbara trusts Dick she works with them.

Here is where it gets interesting, through Barbara, Dick meets Cass, through Tim he meets Stephanie. You see that Dick’s connections are leading him to form a group of people. Cass and Stephanie are trained by Babs and Dick and they become the new Batgirls.

As all of that keeps developing Jason and Dick become “partners in crime” they help each other, they start building a brotherly relationship again. Although Jason refuses to say that out loud.

Then comes in Damian, a difficult child if there has ever been one but he has Bruce so Dick doesn’t have to jump in that fast… right?

Oh brother! Bruce is dead (omg what would we do? Battle for the cowl maybe? No!). with Bruce gone there is only one person who can take his place and everyone knows it has to be Dick.

Dick would feel a lot of things as he is taking Bruce’s place as Batman but he has a group of people ready to back him up (Alfred, Jason, Tim, Babs, Cass, Steph), and he also has to take care of Damian, he is a child and with his father gone then maybe his mother would want to take him back to the League of Assassins, Dick obviously doesn’t want that so he talks to Tim and tells him that he sees him as his equal and that he has a plan to make Damian stay and it involves making Damian his new Robin.

Tim would obviously be sad and a little hurt, but he understands Dick’s decision because they talked about it and Dick actually took the time to explain why he was doing what he was doing (really DC half of the problems you guys come up could be fixed in seconds if people would only take some time to just TALK!).

Dick and Damian work as Batman and Robin and Dick starts assuming the position of his father. They would live with Alfred in the penthouse and maybe Tim will join them from time to time (when he wasn’t busy with Young Justice/Teen Titans stuff). Slowly Dick and Damian will become the Dynamic Duo that we love today.

So, Dick would have his own Robin, Oracle (who is also managing her own team with Black Canary and (why not) the Batgirls), Red Robin and Red Hood working with him if he needs them. They are always a call away. Jason is the most difficult to reach and he will only involve himself in that kind of drama if its about controlling the drug trade or scaring the living shit out of some very shady people.

So, Red Hood wouldn’t be working with the new (and improved) Batman but Jason would hang out with Dick sometimes.

From there they build up. Dick renovates Arkham Asylum and makes it work they way that it is supposed to work. He might also recruit Catwoman when he needs someone really sneaky, they have known each other for so long, I bet Selina loves Dick, she would certainly help him out.

But as all things do, this happy and well-connected Dick-Family is disrupted when Bruce comes back, he inserts himself slowly back into his role as Batman and as he does that Dick starts to move away from it.

But Dick’s connections are strong and well cared for, so, even when he goes back to Bludhaven and starts fresh (again) as Nightwing those connections remain. Oracle still gives him intel, Robin and Red Robin come over to Bludhaven to patrol, maybe they even have their own rooms at Dick’s place.

With Bludhaven functioning again, all of the terrible people that were working there also come back, maybe some of them never left and they have been corrupting the city from its very core. So, when Jason tells Dick that he would like to expand his operations to Bludhaven, Dick says yes, as long as Jason keeps him updated on his work and also lets him know what is going on.

I think it works! What do you guys think so far?

From then on with the whole Dick-Family being connected and strong I think they can actually act and solve their problems as a family. All those arcs that didn’t work very well because Bruce was in the middle of it being a jerk, I think they will work if Dick is at the centre of it. Let’s say that Bruce hid the fact that Joker knows their identities and all that, with such a strong family the second that the Joker tries to manipulate Jason into believing that he created him, Dick will come out of the shadows and shut that bullshit down. If Joker tries to do something to the Circus, then the Birds of Prey and the Robins will be there in seconds helping Dick.

The Court of Owls, those little shits wouldn’t stand a chance against this team, this force of nature! Jason would be the one working from afar because you know my boy wouldn’t be subjected to the “no-killing” rule but if he does it, he has to do it away from the children (Damian) and away from Cass, if he doesn’t want to know real trouble. (He probably arranged those things with Dick a long time ago and he is happy with it).

Now, please forgive me but for angst reasons I will actually let the events of, Batman Incorporated #8, Forever Evil, Nightwing #30 and Spyral run its course.

Let me explain, after Damian’s death Dick holds the Dick-Family together, as well as Bruce because he is amazing like that, but then after Dick supposedly dies, things change just a little bit. Jason would retreat back to his own corner because the only thing attaching him to the Dick-Family was Dick but he would also keep his eyes open and he might also have a direct line with Oracle if things go south.

Aside from Jason, I do see the others working on keeping their connections intact. When Damian eventually returns the land of the living, I can see all of them coming together even more because that’s what Dick would have wanted.

And then Dick will come back from Spyral and here is where the Dick-Family will show the “Bat-Family” why its superior to it in every aspect possible.

The Dick-Family will notice that something must have happened, Dick would never play dead and leave them like that, but Dick loves Bruce and he doesn’t want to tell them the truth, Bruce has no memories now and his family doesn’t deserve that kind of drama BUT Jason and Tim are suspicious, they know Dick at this point and they trust him so they firmly believe that he is hiding something to protect someone. And here is where life repeats itself. Let’s review the Batcave’s footage, yes, I did it again, I just love the fact that Bruce has footage of himself being the absolute worst to his kids, how does DC not use it! Anyway, Tim and Jason find the footage from the events of Nightwing #30 and suddenly the Dick-Family have their “Dick defence squad” jackets on and they are ready to party.

After all that Bruce eventually gets his memories back and he is held accountable for his actions. Also, around this time the events of Robin War would have already happened so Duke is also introduced. Dick lets him join and all that, and then Duke and Cass become besties and they work together.

And yeah, as Rebirth comes closer the Dick-Family would be more united than ever.

The end.

That is how I would have done it. But this way is slow, and DC wouldn’t be able to monetize it as much as they would want.

Jason wouldn’t be giving hugs and calling everyone their brother or sister, he will only get along with Dick and he would be professional with everyone else.

Tim and Damian would get along but they wouldn’t go for ice cream together on a sunny day. Steph and Damian would and so would Cass and Tim or Cass and Duke.

Oracle would work with Dick and the others as a side thing because her main thing would be the Birds of Prey, this time with Helena too.

Alfred would spend his time with Bruce but he would also be very aware of Dick and his influence on everyone around them. Bruce eventually would be integrated to the Dick-Family because Dick is a sweetheart but Dick would also make Bruce follow his rules, Dick is a little bean but he is also the most badass person in the room (whichever room) so you better listen to what he has to say.

The Dick-Family would be something that grows silently and doesn’t need a “Joker War” in order for them to be there for each other, they would try their best each step of the way and they will talk things out when mistakes are made.

This is the way that I see this family dynamic working.

I would even go as far as to say that Talia can be part of the Dick-Family because she is connected to three people, Dick, Damian and Jason.

Dick is the person with most connections in the DC Universe, the Titans, the Justice League, Deathstroke, they all have connections to this treasure of a man. If he needs help in Gotham or Bludhaven then he can call people from the “first circle”, if things are beyond a “street level” threat them he can call the Titans and if shit really hits the fan, Clark and the others are a call away.

Anyway, this was unnecessarily long, I am sorry about it but I am also not because I really don’t know how to answer your question without going on a long rant.

In conclusion the Bat-Family doesn’t work and sadly it wouldn’t work no matter how much they force it. These people don’t have connections, Bruce is not able to make connections between people. And DC has erased entire relationships that Dick used to have. I mean, they got rid of Dick and Tim being close brothers just so they could give us a shitty brunch between Tim and Jason? Only yesterday we saw a true and beautiful interaction between Dick and Damian.

DC is handling the “Bat-Family” in all the worst possible ways. It just doesn’t work.

They should have used Dick all those years ago and they shouldn’t have destroyed Jason’s characterization with Lobdell’s ideas.

So, sadly, my dear anon, I don’t see the Bat-Family as a in character thing for any of these people as they are written currently, but I hope that you enjoyed my version of it. May the Dick-Family bring everyone who reads about it a little joy!

[fsketchart]

Daminette December - Fire

Slight angst sorry also taglist coming very soon so yay also @noirdots ur the best thanks.  Also this is absolutely not realistic rip. Enjoy!

Marinette was oohing and ahhing as she walked around the New year's festival.  Everyone was gathered around the center of the festival as a parade marched down, and from the very back she could see a huge float.  She was getting excited and whipped out her phone to take a video for her family. Next to her, Kagami was jumping up excitedly. She had never seen a parade before.

Marinette and Kagami could only watch in awe as the large float from the end began to make their way to them.  They marveled at how much organization and elegance, and of course patience, it must have taken to make such a large float.

------

Bruce was already banging his head against the table.  He and his family were asked to run one of the floats this year, and unfortunately, the people who run Gotham's annual New Year's parade decided to make a Bat Family themed float.

Since they obviously couldn't dress as themselves, they each took turns going outside to the front of the float to perform and pretend to be another bat fam member other than themselves.  It was becoming a disaster.

When it was Dick's turn, he had to pretend to be Red Hood and he was having way too much fun with it.  He dressed up in a mock version of a Red Hood outfit. When he went outside, he took advantage of the moment.

"HIYA Y'ALL!  Y'ALL ARE LOOKING LIKE QUEEEEENS TODAY!  I HOPE Y'ALL ARE HAVING THE TIME OF YOUR LIVES BECAUSE I TOTES AM!  LEMME HEAR Y'ALL MAKE SOME NOISE!"

The crowd screamed as fans began to reach out towards him.  Dick winked back.

"CAN I JUST SAY THANK YOU TO MY AMAZING CO-WORKER, MY BUDDY, PAL, BROTHER FROM ANOTHER MOTHER, NIGHTWING?  LIKE HE'S SO AMAZING. AM I RIGHT Y'ALL?"

The crowd screamed even louder as people grabbed their phones to record.  Marinette and Kagami began to fall over giggling.

"HONESTLY I WISH I WOKE UP LOOKING AS FLAWLESS AS HE DOES...ANYWHO WHO'S READY FOR TONIGHT?  WE'RE PLANNING A SPECIAL SURPRISE FOR Y'ALL, SO BE READY! CAN'T WAIT TO SHOW YOU GUYS WHAT NIGHTWING HAS WORKED SO HARD ON TO MAKE PERFECT!"

The crowd began cheering, "Nightwing!  Nightwing! Nightwing!" Dick waved at them and walked behind the curtains for the float and returned to the back of the float (closed off section that can't be heard from the crowd.)

Jason immediately lunged for him while screaming, as Alfred tried to pull Jason off of him.  Damian just gave them looks of judgement as he suited up. They decided it would be perfect to send him as Batman, but Damian wouldn't accept a mock outfit.  He wore the real Batman suit, but for obvious reasons...that wasn't the prettiest sight. Damian began tripping everyone and when he reached the stairs to go up on stage he stepped on the cape once more and went flying.  He face plants onto the stage Suddenly, the Batman symbol pops up from one of the lights they set up as the crowd cheers. Damian is still trying to adjust the mask that is covering half his body.

Damian is trying his best to do a Batman impression.  He recalls how his father speaks when talking to Dick, and tries his best to imitate it.  The crowd seemed to like Dick, so that's a good sign right?

"Yo my flip was so hip bro," Damian says in an obviously fake deep voice.

The crowd loses it and goes into hysterics.  Kagami is on the ground laughing as Marinette is just in awe at how cute he seems to be.

Damian sees that he clearly isn't having the tough guy effect.  He tries again.

"Why are you all laughing?  I was so...dope," Damian says, but this time his voice cracks at the end.

Kagami is now sobbing on the ground from hysterics as Marinette begins to giggle a bit.  Marinette sees his small smile, and her heart almost stops. She swears she's seen that smile before.

Damian is done.  Go big or go home.  He tries one last time.

"I hope you all are having a... groovy time?" This time Damian tries finger guns for a moment before immediately stopping and just ditching it.  He runs off the stage but trips again on the cape and a loud thud can be heard from behind the curtains. The crowd just laughs, having caught it all on camera.

Marinette is just giggling, before she realizes where she's seen that smile before.  Damian, she realizes. Her cheeks redden a little bit. Kagami is almost passed out beside her but using Marinette to balance herself.  Kagami wipes a tear from her eye while smiling brightly.

------

Damian is running to the closest corner he sees.  He swears he saw Marinette in the corner. He tunes out the rest of the noise, including Dick's yelling at Jason's mock performance of Nightwing, and he just rips off the mask.  He sighs and joins his father in banging their heads against the wall. Alfred already taped a pillow to the wall in preparation. (ಡ ͜ ʖ ಡ @noirdots)

Alfred pats them both on the back.

"Father?" Damian asked.

"It's your brothers.  What about you?" Bruce asked.

"...Marinette."

"The one from school?"

"...Yes.  I think she just saw my little performance."

"Sorry you inherited my love life."

------

After Jason and Tim finished their performances, Bruce was last.  They had to drag him outside to the front. The crowd was screaming at the sight of Bruce in a bright red outfit with green elf shoes and green shorts and a bright black and yellow cape.

Bruce bowed his head in utter shame and humiliation, while all the former robins were getting a kick out of it.  Alfred was recording it.

Bruce wouldn't even speak.  He just stood there awkwardly trying to form words but just settled for awkward silence.  The crowd took photos and Bruce was sure he was going to be on the cover of newspapers and magazines.  Bruce groaned. Clark was going to have a field day.

The robins backstage high fives in their victory.

Jason laughed, knocking off a few boxes.  He made them no mind. Even though the boxes were quite close to some electronic…stuff.  (I'm sorry I don't know what to put here rip.)

------

The last performance, all of them came dressed up, Bruce having to carry Damian to the front because he couldn't see in Bruce's mask.

Together, they took a bow.  Marinette waved from the crowd and Damian got red.  He shyly waved back, still being carried by Bruce piggy back style.

They gathered around and were about to announce some bat fam merchandise when their planned surprise, ended up going off.  Behind them, a loud boom came from behind the stage. Bruce screamed a high pitched scream while everyone else just stared.  The crowd was confused while the bat fam was panicking. They weren't planning on setting on the surprise until later. That's when Jason remembered the boxes.  He slowly walked behind Dick and hid there.

Suddenly, fireworks were exploding from behind them.  The fireworks were designed to show the Batman symbol, and little logos for each bat fam member.  They were all being set off at once, and Jason was severely panicking by now. That's when Alfred noticed the look on his face and in turn, returned Jason with a judgemental one.  Everyone turned to him.

The crowd was still in awe of the fireworks, oohing and ahing.  Marinette was excited as she hugged Kagami next to her. Kagami returned the hug.

Meanwhile Damian was still clinging onto Bruce for dear life and Jason was screaming.  Dick was running around asking for a fire extinguisher or whatever he could find while Tim was trying to get everyone off the float.  That was when the crowd realized this wasn't supposed to happen. And that's when they smelled the burning.

Marinette darted forwards from the crowd.  Her parents have had plenty of accidents in the bakery before, and began trying to evacuate people.

Kagami already dialed 911 and everyone was screaming.

Bruce led the way off the float while but in the mess, Damian fell off his shoulders.  Everyone kept pushing and shoving each other trying to get away from the float. They pushed and shoved Bruce farther and farther away from the float.

Marinette saw the Wayne family exiting the float, but with no Damian in sight.

Bruce noticed Damian was missing and immediately ran back.  He was screaming his name and that's when Marinette realized what had happened.

A short girl passed Bruce and shoved him out of her way.  She was running towards the float and Bruce let out a curse.  She kept running and running while screaming his name. That's when Bruce joined her.  They entered the burning float and saw his lying there unconscious. Bruce grabbed him, but before they could leave, the roof collapsed.  Marinette jumped into action, trying to hold the roof of the float up. She was muttering under her breath, and Bruce could only hear the name Tikki.  Marinette's eyes seemed just the tiniest bit brighter, as she tried to keep the ceiling together. Bruce ran out and Marinette followed behind him, just barely missing being crushed by the roof.  They ran out of there and onto the front stage. Marinette pointed near the edge and suggested they try to jump there. Bruce nodded and together they jumped off the edge of the float.

Kagami finally saw them on the float and raced forwards.  Marinette broke her ankle, but Bruce managed to land alright.  Kagami grabbed Marinette and ran, Bruce following behind her.

------

Jason apologised profusely to all of them and even offered to wear the OG Robin outfit as a punishment for a whole week.  The bat fam agreed, and while his pride was tarnished, Jason deemed it worth it. However, Dick added that he had to keep a post it note on his forehead at all times saying, "I am so not cool beans." He was also required to say goodbye with, "toodles." Damian approved.

Bonus : Damian's face wearing the Batman mask.

[variablejabberwocky]

thinking about potential names for bitty!bruce's vigilante persona (didn't want to put this on the long chain of good ideas so i found the bit with the first mention of anti-robin, but they ARE good ideas and people should follow that thread for delicious funny angst) and i think WHICH name he goes by is gonna shape how the story unfolds but here are some ideas:

ROBIN - just strait up robin. little bruce did his research and saw kid vigilantes have themes based on where they're at/from and in gotham kid heroes are Robins, so he's a robin. obviously. it was good enough for his new dad guardian its good enough for him. dick is unhappy this little shit is being brainwashed into everything he thought he got PAST as robin. damian is pissed this pretender who has already slandered his honor is also Taking His Spot that Father refuses to give him yet. even funnier if while bitty!bruce was stealing jason's memorialized suit he also like idk stole tim's old suit? just ripped the trackers out of it/hacked them to be on hood's wavelength instead of the bats and went 'hey its a free costume'. tim would be so confused and OBSESSED. someone is pulling a him, is it damian? is he trying to take robin from him? is everyone else in on it? is this them trying to train his own replacement without telling him? are they trying to let him down easy or just slowly stonewall him out? like the confusion would be cleared up when he's spotted with hood, but there for a hot second? oof tim's insecurities would act up

ANTI-ROBIN - bitty!bruce did his research like above but CLEARLY he is the superior bruce, and his new dad guardian can beat up your dad is OBVIOUSLY training him better than big!bruce trains his robins, so clearly he is a living critique of big!bruce's methods and the antithesis of his robins. (let little bruce give off maximum damian vibes! its funny AND sad!) the costume could be like inverted colors of robin or the same colors but in the opposite locations.

BAT BOY - let this little angry spicy bean take one look at his alternate universe Big Self and go 'hold my flower'. he WILL be the superior bat themed vigilante, he's already got a head start by Not Sucking At Caring About Jason. he's Got This! your choice of if its just a robin costume dyed black/grey or if he goes full Batman But Miniature about it.

MINI HOOD - maybe he doesn't pick a name on his own, maybe he just gets called something enough to answer to it. i mean he follows Hood around like a lost little duckling and his glower is no joke either. look they even have the same temper! plus this is bruce we're talking about, he ABSOLUTELY has the capacity to be a little mimic. i mean 'brucie wayne' had to come from somewhere. so what if he intentionally picks up on more and more of jason's little mannerisms and body language. he wants to be more like his new dad guardian! plus helmets are practical.

BLUE JAY - i've seen a lot of stories where ALL the former robins become other birds when they outgrow the robin mantle and a frequent one is cardinal. but this is the antithesis of a robin and i've seen a lot of stuff with bluejays and cardinals together as Opposite Brightly Colored Birds Of Winter. so: blue jay. it would also be a little bit of a fuck you to nightwing since he went from mostly red outfit to mostly blue and i can see bruce planning to do the opposite of the Original Robin AND its a subtle nod to jason being his guardian. and you could do so many different things with the costume! is it basically a black and blue robin costume? is it a miniature of the old grey and blue batman costume? is it a tiny red hood but with blue instead of red? is it an entirely different costume unlike any others? is it modeled after the current robin (tim) to show he's the equivalent?

Prompt:

Jason gets booted to another dimension and adopts a recently orphaned Bruce Wayne.

Whom he also takes along for the ride when he’s pulled back into his own dimension.

[fantastic-nonsense]

So there's...lots of things to address here, both in your original replies and this response.

One, you can scratch the entire conversation about Nicieza. I have no real objection to the core thesis you've presented re: him and his writing, but RR #12 was written by Chris Yost (thanks to @mollyhats for correcting me) and thus conversations on how Nicieza portrays Tim and/or Damian aren't actually relevant here. I also, once again, generally have no real objection to you pointing out that Tim has also engaged in quite a bit of casual sexism over the years; my comment there was simply to point out that Tim's sexism (tragically) doesn't tend to be framed poorly because of a) when his comics were written and b) who was writing them, whereas Damian's casual sexism is often deliberately framed in-universe as shitty behavior. And we can talk about sexism in Tim's comics if you want, but frankly that's a different conversation for another post.

Two, I take the point about writers portraying him that way without "the intention to experience growth" and inserting casual misogyny as a shorthand for 'annoying.' However, at the end of the day that's what the writing shows: in his earlier Reborn-era appearances, Damian throws around casually cruel and sexist remarks towards women on a semi-consistent basis. By the time we get to the New 52, he's basically not doing so anymore. That change happens for a variety of reasons, including different writers, genuinely intentional character development, and changing IRL cultural consciousness on casual sexism. But that original mentality is consistently shown in canon, and to deny it's there seems silly when it's a pattern of behavior that persists across multiple books and multiple writers.

Three, regarding your original replies:

It feels kind of disingenuous to represent stuff where he's a side character being played up as annoying as a genuine character to flaw when In most of those cases it was where he was a side character being played up as annoying. Even in his main comic by Morriston the sexism isn't there.

Funnily enough, Damian doesn't actually have many interactions with women that are written by Morrison. The only woman he really interacts with on-panel until Battle for the Cowl is Talia, and he's so blatantly OOC in BftC it's not really fair to use that as a basis for judgement either way (even if it was a Morrison comic, which it isn't).

That leaves the Reborn era: In Morrison's 16 B&R issues, Damian shares panel time with only two women: Talia, who is obviously an exception to this conversation because she's his mom, and Sasha, Jason's sidekick and an exceptional case because Damian felt personally responsible for her as a civilian he failed to save. The only other woman in B&R he interacts with? Una Nemo in #18-19, written by guest writer Paul Cornell, and Damian is suspiciously quiet and lacking in dialogue in general during those two issues; his dialogue is largely short, to the point, and...mostly directed at Dick apart from a few jabs at how "psychotic" Una is.

It's quite odd in hindsight, actually. He's getting his spine replaced when Dick goes to England to work with Knight and Squire, he never has a conversation with Kate Kane despite being on the same rooftop after the Clone!Bruce debacle, neither Babs nor Steph ever show up as guest-stars, and all of Morrison's B&R villains are men (except Sasha). Thus, it's actually impossible to answer the question using his "main writer/comic" as a basis for comparison.

So if we can't answer that question using Morrison-written work, what we're left with is this: how does Damian talk about and interact with women in Streets of Gotham+his various significant guest appearances in Batgirl/Red Robin/Gotham City Sirens/Teen Titans/World's Finest/etc? The answer: generally not great.

He's professional and fairly caring with civilian victims, but with other heroes? He seems to have two modes: "I lowkey love you because you're super competent and/or willing to kill" (Katana in Streets of Gotham, Supergirl in Superman/Batman, his references to Cass when talking to Steph in Batgirl) or "you've either disrespected me and/or aren't worth my time and are thus subject to regular gendered insults" (Stephanie across multiple books, Selina in Gotham City Sirens, Donna in JLA, actually interacting with Cass during most of Gates of Gotham). But even in the first instances, writers often inserted casual misogyny into Damian's dialogue:

"Tried to find something appropriate--more matronly or that of a streetwalker--but they were fresh out." -Superman/Batman #77

The one exception to the explicitly gendered insults during that era seems to be his team-up with the Teen Titans in #88-92, which was published around the same time as his team-up with Kara, and that mission (along with his rocky start but eventual connection with Rose Wilson in those issues) is also explicitly framed as something that changed Damian and his behavior:

"I can see the changes. Damian was more patient this time before making his move. Waited for me to draw their attention fully. And I recognize some new moves. And he hasn't even used one of his blades." -Teen Titans (2003) #92

Like I said before, he gets a lot better about it as the Reborn era progresses, particularly in Steph's Batgirl comic (where that growth is clearly deliberate given the entire run is written by Bryan Q. Miller), but he still obviously has some issues to work on given his comments to and about Cass in Gates of Gotham:

"I've seen the condescending looks you give, woman. You think I can't cut it, huh?" /// "Cassandra's not useless." "No. She's spineless, naive, and fragile. And I don't trust her."

And whether or not all of those comments were written to "play up" Damian's brattiness or make other characters look better in comparison, the point is that it's a generally consistent character trait that pops up repeatedly across no less than 8 separate books and writers in a little over 2 years. It's notable, the lack of those comments later on is also notable, and to say it should be "dismissed" because they were guest appearances or "written to prop up other characters" ignores the characterization consistency for convenient dismissal of behavior.

I'm just...honestly not really sure what your point with this argument is. It's okay for kid characters to have genuine behavioral flaws that they grow out of, especially when those flaws are clearly the product of how they were raised rather than a core belief they actually hold. I don't understand the need to cover up Damian's flaws and engage in whataboutism re: Tim when it's a genuinely interesting example of character progression. Damian grows up and visibly un-learns toxic behavior, and that's fantastic, especially when viewed in context of the multitude of female friendships and other relationships with women he now has. I'm happy that Damian has a lot of female friends and good relationships with his various big sister(ish) figures, I'm happy the casual sexism is gone, and I'm happy the writers who thought it was okay to write those things are gone too. It's really not that complicated.

Damian Wayne ending up with so many healthy relationships with women and lots of female friends after his early Morrison-era characterization as a baby misogynist: