#obviously we're talking about jason!robin or dick!robin here

[batfam-stuff-posts-0]

Bruce: *sobbing* I found this puppy waiting outside. Look at him! Isn't he adorable? His face is so cute and sweet and he's got such big eyes and-

Clark: Bruce, that's Robin.

[womanofwords]

Everybody's Favourite (Part 1)

Everything turned upside-down when the principal pulled you out of class when you were seven years old. You'd been colouring nicely when she came in.

"Y/N, I'd like to talk to you," she said. "Could you come with me?"

"Have I done something wrong?" you asked.

"No, dear. Just get your stuff."

You collected your things and went with her, where a police officer was waiting. "Here's Y/N, officer," she said to him. That was when you learned, in a haze of horror, that your dear mother had died while you were colouring in class without a care in the world. Car accident.

"Not to worry, she made arrangements as to who would look after you in the event of this happening," the police officer said. "Your biological father . . . Bruce Wayne."

So off you went to your new home, away from your friends and old neighbourhood and everything you'd ever known, and towards the figure known as Bruce Wayne.

The first thing you noticed about your father was that he was, obviously, very rich. All his cars were the fancy ones you used to stare at with your mom when you would walk together.

When you arrived, you had all sorts of questions for your father. "How did you meet my mother? Why didn't you talk to me before this? Did you like spending time with her?"

"I'm rather busy, Y/N. I'll show you to your room," Bruce said, escorting you to a guest bedroom. "We can decorate it later."

Later never came.

After a few weeks, you met his other kids, Dick, Jason, Tim, Barbara, Cass, and Stephanie. They all looked so cool, like teenagers from a movie. But they always had to 'do stuff'.

"What kind of stuff?" you asked.

"They're a part of scholarships for gifted students," Bruce said, before any of them could say anything. "I happen to be privately tutoring them."

"Oh. So you spend time with them because they're talented?"

"You could put it that way."

That revelation lit a fire underneath you. If your father wanted talented kids, then you would have to be a talented kid.

In everything you could get your hands on.

You became a polyglot, devouring different languages like nobody's business. You took part in gymnastics, just like Dick, and also track. You got straight As in everything, forcing yourself to study night after night. You read the same classic books Jason loved so you could (hopefully) have something to bond with him over. You took some coding classes so you had something to talk about with Tim.

Alfred became a consistent source of comfort, bringing you food and making sure that you didn't over work yourself. He came to every event you had, loyally videotaping it for future viewing.

Nobody cared to look at the tapes. Nobody watched you collect your awards for fastest times, or graduate early as valedictorian. Nobody listened to your headmaster sing your praises as he listed your various scholastic accomplishments.

Damian was the worst. The moment he met you, it was clear that he would hate you until he died. He looked at you with such disgust, such contempt for your existence. Once, he cornered you with a katana that he held so close to your neck that you were cut. Another time, he sicced Titus onto you, leading to a nasty bite mark on your arms when you put them up to defend yourself.

"Titus mauling you would have been an improvement to the Wayne bloodline," he sneered, as you bawled your eyes out. "When are you going to get it through your simple-minded skull that we don't care what happens to you? It's annoying to hear you chatter to us and make conversation about being head of your class and breaking sports records. We all scoff about it when we're on patrol."

Your throat went dry. "Patrol?"

"Of course. Father, Dick, Jason, Stephanie, and myself all have our own alter egos. I am by my father's side cleaning the streets of scumbags as Batman and Robin while you are trying to be top of your stupid little class." He punched you in the stomach, hard. "Honestly, it's a relief to get away from you and your nauseating neediness."

Alfred came to console you after the fact, but he wouldn't hear a word against Damian for hurting you, or Bruce for letting it happen. "Master Damian has had a . . . difficult life, Y/N," he said. "And Bruce's childhood was by no means easy."

You gave up on your family after that. Nobody really wanted you, and Damian actively hated you.

You were nobody's favourite.

Part 1 <- You are here

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

Part 6

Part 7

Part 8

Part 9

Part 10

Part 11

Part 12

Part 13

Part 14

[jayladfanpage]

Saw a post saying that Cassandra Cain would hate Jason Todd and I'm sorry but. Are we talking about the same Cass Cain? Are we?

I understand the sentiment of "Cass would be outraged by Jason's morals" (when we're talking New Earth, at least,) that makes sense. I do think she would hate his ideals. Not Jason himself, though.

Cassandra knows death. Literally the thing that motivates her to be a hero is that, because of her ability to read body language, she experienced death after her first kill. She didn't just watch that man die, she died with him. She knows exactly what Jason felt like when he died, she knows how much it fundamentally changes somebody. I think she wouldn't understand how Jason changed for the worse, but she, out of everyone in the Bats, would actually, genuinely be able to see the boy Jason used to be when looking at Red Hood without separating Hood and Robin in her mind. Your death isn't something you ever forget.

Also, not only does she know the pain Jason went through when he died, she knows the grief Bruce went through, and is still going through when she finds out about Jason's death.

Obviously, everyone loves this scene (Batgirl (2000) #7) because it perfectly encapsulates both Cass' and Bruce's ideas of what makes a vigilante/hero. But there's a second layer to this, which is that Cass, who speaks in body language, feels Bruce's grief. In this scene, Cass isn't just shocked to learn that a Robin died, she's mourning Jason just as much as Bruce is. She can feel all of his regrets, all of his pain, all of his guilt. Cassandra would never be able to look at Red Hood without remembering what Bruce felt, what she felt, when he died.

Lastly, while Cass' morals aren't as much about "second chances" as Bruce's morals are, she is still desperate to save people. And Jason's main thing is that Bruce (and Dick, I'll make a meta post about Brothers in Blood at some point) can't save him. Saving Jason Todd goes directly against Bruce and Cassandra's morals, but another thing that Bruce and Cass have in common is how unwilling they are to give up. Everybody will be saved, or they'll both die trying to make it so. "Everybody" includes Jason, who's always worn his heart on his sleeve, who most likely wouldn't even try to hide his emotions/body language from Cass, because he never bothers to hide his pain, is always begging to be saved, just in a way that Batman can't fix. Jason doesn't just need help, he wants it. So Cass would never hate him, because she sees that Jason wants to be fixed, wants to change the man that he is, but feels like he can't do that until Joker dies, as seen here:

(Urban Legends (2020) #6)

And I think Cass would see that and would do everything she could to save Jason from himself without killing Joker. She could never hate Jason, not when she so fundamentally understands him and his struggle to believe he could ever be a good person. She knows his guilt doesn't absolve him just like her guilt doesn't absolve her, but Bruce gave her a chance to be a hero when he saw that she'd changed, became a better person. And I think she would go her entire life trying to give Jason the chance to change, too.

[erinwantstowrite]

what are your thoughts abot how Damian and Tim's relationship is portrayed in most fanfics?

personally, although I like the angst part of their relationship I wish there was more fanfics where they're closer and have real siblings dynamic (like u know they 'hate' eachother but they would destroy anyone who would want to hurt their brother)

oh, boy, do i have a lot to say about this one. buckle in, folks.

i feel like a lot of the time, if they're in a fic together and the fic author doesn't like one of them, the other is going to be mischaracterized to hell and back. sometimes... both are mischaracterized.

i'm all for a fanon interpretation of a character- obviously, because i have fanon interpretations in my fic too at least a wee bit- but sometimes it goes too far and it no longer feels like we're reading about the same character

let's talk about Tim.

Tim doesn't have a good view of himself or his standing in any emotional aspect. which is often misconstrued about him believing that he was Jason's replacement (neither he nor Bruce thought this, but it was Bruce's fear), or that his worth as Robin wasn't enough. that's not true at all. i'll say it again here: Jason didn't nearly kill Tim at Titan's Tower, nor did he go there to kill Tim. and Tim fought him back. he even told Jason to his face:

"you can't be that good" "I am."

he knows he's a damn good Robin! he trained with the best, he helps lead the YJ! he doesn't doubt that he was the best person for the job. but when it comes to the emotional aspect of Robin, i think this is where Tim stutters

this is because of how Tim's parents showed their affection.

i think canon neglects that aspect of his trauma, which is why so many people hang onto it. in the comics, Tim is shown to have a lot of friends both in and out of suit. he's abrasive and isn't afraid to ask the hard questions. but he is riddled with self worth issues. his parents were barely around him, they didn't know him well at all. and they loved him, but from a distance.

Tim now sees himself as someone that can receive love from a distance. he is incredibly self reliant, and has been from a young age. he sees all of his accomplishments as obligations. he does well at school because he had to. he takes care of himself because he had to. and in his mind, taking up Robin was partly another obligation. he does his job well because he has to, and he might doubt this sometimes like anyone else, but at the end of the day he is confident in his ability to get shit done.

now, the emotional part of Batman and Robin is where i believe i enjoy a fanon interpretation more. he actually does have a good relationship with Dick, but I'm not too sure about Bruce at this point. this topic is nuanced because Batman writers make him so diabolical at times to the point that i would consider it ooc. but other times they're very close and Bruce admits this. so i replace it in my head with a more stable and realistic version that i've seen written by fic authors very well.

Tim views himself as someone who is there for a job: help Batman. but there is a lot of wonder and awe there. his favorite Robin was Dick. (I'll say this again so everyone hears me: his favorite Robin was Dick. yes you are allowed to have nuance and put Jason in there as someone he looked up to as well, please do. but put some respect on Dick's name!) now that he's working with Dick Grayson, someone he admires so much, as well as getting the honor to wear the Robin suit, he feels more like himself than he has in years. he's good at this, and it's also fun. he meets so many people and he gets to make a difference in the world. yes, it's a job, but it's also very freeing

he never did this be Bruce's son, or to replace Jason. his relationship with Bruce started off extremely rocky, with Tim forcing himself into his life in some way because he believed that Batman was going to get himself killed or get someone else killed, or Batman would cross the line. and Gotham would lose the only person who had such unwavering optimism for them. he and Bruce come to an understanding of being partners but not father and son. Bruce doesn't want to open himself up to that hurt again. but we all know Bruce, and that's not what ended up happening. Bruce would never be the same person he was before, but he is not incapable of love.

Tim would not understand that change. I'd get more into this but i don't want this post too long and i wanna save it for when i'm not supposed to be sleeping and when i'm writing one of my Tim fics for once. all we really need to know is that Tim's emotional intelligence is dogshit, and him coming to see Bruce as a father, and Bruce seeing him as a son, would baffle him. because his parents love him... at a distance. and Bruce sees him every day. that's not how it's supposed to work, right?

so.

sometimes, Tim is treated like a porcelain doll who can do no wrong. many aspects of his canon has been altered by fanon to be "worse" than it is. his neglect by his parents did, indeed, happen, and it affects him deeply. but his parents weren't like. beating him, or leaving him without food or shelter or supervision. Tim was clever enough to get around that supervision all on his own. which is why they should have been there in the first place. (they should have been there regardless). and emotional neglect is still a very real issue??? no one has to make it "worse" by making the Drakes out to be monsters. i think Jack often emotionally manipulated Tim when he was around, and I don't know if Jack was even aware that he did so. (which is why i can see some people delving into that nonexistent relationship that DC gave us, and finally giving those implications more depth. there are a lot of good fics that go over this)

often it's hard to read a fic for Tim because they go too hard into making Tim an anxious shy ball of sunshine. Tim is weird, and he stalked the Bats, he stalked Nightwing, he broke into Titan's Tower before he even became Robin. he's a weirdo. he fits right in with the Bats for that reason. some people make him out to be the victim or some kind of damsel in distress, and sometimes we get to see a phenomena where other characters talk like a book about emotional intelligence that their therapist gave them. which is... fine, if you're just writing to write it, maybe helping yourself. but let's take a step back and see Tim is not like that. he is a very capable person, and his not some "uwu, woe is me, i'm so shitty at everything and if you even look at me wrong i'll cry." i honestly believe that Tim is the type of character to hate crying in front of someone and even if he was actively dying he'd be holding back those tears.

whereas Damian? gets the opposite treatment??

granted, i don't actually know too much about Damian, but i at least try to understand him and his background

he's the youngest of them, and i think many people forget that Damian isn't a reader of the comics like we are. he wasn't going into that family with the emotional connections to these characters and their backstories like we did. he was taught about these people, the idea of them. like how we could be taught in class about people from a long time ago. and i can ensure you that Damian was not taught proper emotional intelligence, nor would he have the best grasp of it himself when he was younger than 9 years old. imagine all of your teachers and also your mother told you about these people and their accomplishments, and then told you that the person all of them look up to is your father. the person that you want nothing more than to know, to see, because the people around you talk about him so highly. someone you haven't gotten to meet yet, because you aren't "worthy." can you imagine being told all your life that you are not worthy to see your father yet? and not knowing if he believes that too?

but one day, you are going to be by his side as his son. i don't want to get too into the culture of the Al Ghul family because i don't actually know that much (i'm sure someone would know more about this, feel free to add on if you want to), but this is important to Damian. it's important to his mom. it's important to his grandfather, the leader of an extensive organization that stretches hundreds of years.

then he gets dropped off in a different country, culture, language, and family and he finds that things are not as he had been told his entire life. his father has many flaws, they do not believe the same importance of a blood tie as his family back home does. they question his entire upbringing to his face many times, they question his mother who he loves deeply. he's nine years old. imagine yourself in that position. you don't know yet what role you're playing in an adult's life, but you want to. desperately. you want to know where you stand. you want a hug. not to mention that Damian actually is a very emotional kid. he was taught to shove that deep, deep down, and not let that out.

too many people write Damian as if he was a "feral" kid which is kind of not something to put on him? i don't like it both because he wasn't feral, he was an asshole. there's a difference. and because it feels like a microaggression?? at times?? because once again... the culture that he is from... is important.

they have been racially profiled for many many years... and yes, everything that you read is political whether you want it to be or not. the act of reading is political. you should definitely be aware of what a writer's goal is when they were giving something to you. you should be reading deeper. again, i'm not from his culture and i can't say if it is an insult/insensitive joke or not, nor am i saying everyone who's made the joke before is a bad person. i have made jokes about Tim being a feral kid before and whatnot. i'm saying that no matter who you are, it is your responsibility to think critically about your media and kindly about other people. it feels uncomfortable to me because i know how wrongly the Al Ghuls (specifically Talia) have been treated by writers in the past. and Damian is an extension of that bias. just look at how many times they try to push Ian Wayne on us. or how they'll pull back on Damian's character development when talking about the Al Ghul family.

this probably isn't my topic to write about, at least not before i learn more about it. but since i get a fair amount of viewership, maybe someone will listen to me that won't listen to someone of color that has already pointed this out many times. with the comics fandom, and Batman fandom specifically sometimes, people don't care to think further about why the characters of color are so often and conveniently left out or forced into an archetype. take that as you will

so! he has spent his entire life believing he had to live up to two great legacies, both of which are VERY different. the intricacies of the Al Ghul family are often boiled down to pure evil by both fanon and canon writers, which dulls Damian's resolve and reasoning for what he had done, or makes it hard to connect to him. he has since learned more about who he wants to be and has come to respect his family in many ways. excuse me if i'm wrong, but i think part of why Damian came so hard for Tim was because Tim had everything Damian wanted. he had a place by Batman's side as both his son and his partner, and was very well respected by Batman and Nightwing both. he's older, more mature, he has stature in both this society Damian now has to fit into and within the family dynamic. considering Damian grew up in an assassin cult that solved threats to their dynamics or positions in power by murder, it wasn't a far leap for a child from that environment to make. he was modelling what he had been taught his entire life.

think about the mistakes that you made as a kid. and i don't mean something silly or funny now, i'm talking something that makes you feel ashamed. embarrassed. hurt. something that perhaps now as an adult, you reflect on as being totally uncool. and i want you to think about if maybe your environment had a role to play in that. maybe you made an insensitive joke that your mom or dad would have found funny, and someone pointed it out and reasonably made you feel like a jerk. shit happens. but you hopefully grew from that.

now imagine that mistake was you hurting someone.

yes, he was annoying. he was bratty, at times. he could be a little calculating shit. he hurt people with both his words and his weapons. Tim obviously had many many many reasons to be upset about his treatment- but I fear that most of his anger ended up directed at the older people in their lives that were supposed to be the ones to do something about it!

and though i hate that Tim went back to being Robin (it feels redundant), i have seen panels that show that the two of them working side by side after Damian and Tim both went through some life and perspective altering events both together and alone, has made Tim see Damian as his little brother, and vice versa. Damian has grown so much and many people just... don't care. no matter their reasoning for hating Damian, it's unfair to not look further than those cutting words written decades ago, or to bring up his mistakes every time you want to be mad at him. and i think it does a disservice to Tim to make him a bleeding heart about this when he has clearly forgiven Damian and cares about him. he rags on Damian like any older brother would, and Damian makes remarks like a younger brother would. personally, i think the two of them are doing pretty good right now

the development of their characters is actually so interesting within the canon aspect, even if they can fumble the ball every now and then. and the mischaracterization takes away the value that their canon relationship has. i personally love reading fics that have Damian and Tim teaming up. in aus where one thing changes and Tim and Damian become brothers later, i think it's actually so silly and fun when Damian respects Tim or thinks he's cool. or even without the au aspect! just like, a fic where the two of them are working together and it's either silly or serious, Damian having a begrudging respect for Tim and Tim being protective over Damian, etc etc, is sooooo much fun

[kitkat5628]

what is your ideal size/roles for the Batfamily? Like “Dick is Nightwing, Tim is Robin” etc

I'm a big sucker for the 90/00s BatFamily, ngl. I like all the members of course but for the love of god, Bruce, stop adopting kids omg💔 someone gotta stop this man.

Notes about some characters that are or are considered members: Not a big fan of Harley being in the family? I do like her, and that she finally "escaped" Joker. But not sure how I feel about her being an official member of the family. Would be nice to see them work together from time to time though :).

I love Helena, but I don't see her much as a member too. Would prefer letting her doing her own things but being in contact with them and, like for Harley, sometimes working together. If we're talking about Bertinelli obviously. If it were to be Helena Wayne, it'd be different.

Luke... It's not that I dislike the guy, I just never got much into him. So, in the family or not, I don't really care😅.

And I miss Jean-Paul. Where's the guy? He had such a good relationship with Babs and Cass, and it was so funny reading Dick interacting with him, lol.

Now! As for the roles, let me make a little list:

Bruce - Batman, duh...

Selina - Catwoman

Kate - Batwoman

Helena - Huntress

Babs - Batgirl/Oracle. As said in my previous post, I love her current status as both

Dick - Nightwing. I did like his time as Batman though

Cassandra - Black Bat. I know, I know, she's a good Batgirl and her BG costume is amazing, she can keep it and call herself Black Bat though. I just like them all having their own names. And yes, I did read Batgirl 2000😭 Every time I say this people ask me if I did read it or suggest me to do so, lol. I loved the run, but would still want Cass to have her own name. Especially because, if you say "Batgirl" to someone, they're always gonna think of the red head. Even who doesn't know Barbara Gordon or any DC stuff knows the red head Batgirl, given how famous she is. Or even who read comics, most of the times. (Note: I kinda like the name Orphan too, unpopular opinion? No idea. I can imagine the villains "Oh gods Orphan's here" "Huh?! Which one?!" Lol.)

Jason - Red Hood

Stephanie - Spoiler. Again, she was good as Batgirl but I like her having her own name. And come on, the name's Spoiler for a vigilante/hero is awesome

Tim - Red Robin. For the same reason as Cass and Steph, but I also don't feel, like many do, that he has to completely abandon Robin or the role. So Red Robin is quite fine by me. And no offense to who came up first or like the name "Red Cardinal" for Tim, but every time I hear cardinal I think of the church;;;

Duke - Signal

Damian - Robin. I don't mind him still being Robin, maybe he'll also find his own name one day — if it's terrible you'll see me begging on my knees for them to call him Robin again. And gods please do not kill a Robin in hush2, DC I swear I'll hunt you down if you do.

I mean... They'll probably come back anyway but yk...

[lacrimosathedark]

I have so many reasons why I love JayRoy, but there is one that is a surprisingly big factor while also completely meaningless and coincidental, but adorable to think about.

Allow me to show you Lian Harper of Earth-22, aka the Kingdom Come universe.

This pretty freckled redhead is indeed, believe it or not, Lian Harper. Unfortunately there are no good pictures of her in her originating story.

Lucky for us, her and her team of Titans appear in Titans 23-25

and the team includes other Titans kids

Darkstar, (possibly) Robert Long, Donna's son Nightstar, Mar'i Grayson, Dick and Kori's daughter Kid Flash, Irey West, Wally's daughter Aquagirl, Tula, Garth's daughter

I'm not sure where the name "Darkstar" comes from if I'm completely honest, but Nightstar is obviously just smashing Nightwing and Starfire together, and the other two are legacy names. Lian's name is...not like that. And it's hilarious to me. Just...

You read that correctly. There is a future version of Lian Harper whose superhero name is Red Hood.

Now this is more because one of the names Roy used was Red Arrow, and with Arrowfam's whole Robin Hood schtick, Little Red Riding Hood seemed like a fun play. And this is before Graduation Day, so I'm not sure if Jason was even planned to return yet. It literally has nothing to do with Jason or Joker but that's kind of why I love it so much. This literally has nothing to do with who we know as Red Hood AND YET. THE CONNECTION IS THERE.

It's just one of those funny coincidences that I love.

For funsies, here's more pictures of her.

You can tell Roy has a toddler because while not knowing this is also his daughter, he is talking to her like a naughty dog lmao

Despite the red hair, she looks like her mom...and as much as I hate Cheshire, that's still kinda sweet and really cute.

They're only there for a short while, and then the Titans forget they existed immediately after, but it's still nice.

This outfit also inspired my redesign for Lian's hero costume. I love the shoulder cape. Just give the hood some cat ears and we're good.

Lian is my favorite.

[silverwhittlingknife]

YEAH, AGREED, i feel like it's partly a question of how we're using the terms?

tim doesn't Literally Force anyone to do anything, obviously - he can't!! and i think if we take it to extremes it gets silly - nobody forces dick to take tim back to gotham or to show him the cave, and nobody forces bruce to agree to having a new robin, etc. bruce and dick have choices in terms of how they respond to tim. dick straight-up vetoes tim's first plan of you-should-be-robin, and tim has zero ability to change his mind. tim's not calling the shots here.

but at the same time, there's legitimately a huge difference between, say, how dick and jason join bruce's mission (bruce seeks them out) vs. how tim joins (tim seeks dick out, and then dick seeks bruce out, and tim pitches them both on how batman needs a robin and he's willing to volunteer).

and tim's version is pushy!!

for dick and jason, bruce spies on them from a distance (i mean, okay, jason stole his tires, but bruce breaks into jason's apartment) & bruce invites them into his house & invites them to join his mission.

whereas with tim, he's a stranger who spies on dick and bruce from a distance & then invites himself into dick's apartment (by literally breaking in!!!) & then invites himself into bruce's mission.

and YEAH, re: the "i guess somebody HAS to eat this cake" thing sdfdsfds, for me one of the most engaging tensions in Tim's early stories is between his self-presentation ("I'm just an altruist who wants to help! for totally virtuous reasons! and duty! and the greater good! totally! no self-interest at all! no personal investment!") vs. his inner monologue (where he's a lot more willing to admit that maybe a lot of why he wants this is less selfless altruism and more selfish loneliness).

like, it's not that tim's altruism isn't genuine, because it is!! vague daydreams are not the same as action; and if you look at tim's general evasiveness and reluctance to explain himself to dick & bruce even with the iron-clad excuse of "bruce is maybe gonna die or murder someone," i think it's very clear how tim managed to figure out their identities years ago, daydream about being a superhero for years, and yet still never ever ever ever act on it or even breathe a word in their direction.

there's a moment in nightwing 25 where tim wonders aloud if he's too cautious - implicitly asking dick if dick thinks so - which is a spot-on observation because the subtext of the entire outing they're on is that yeah, dick thinks he's too cautious, which is why dick has gotten him to wear a blindfold and leap into the darkness onto a moving train and just trust that dick won't steer him wrong - the whole point is so that tim will learn to be a little less rigid and apt to freeze up or overcalculate in risky situations (and maybe a little bit of affectionate hazing, too. but mostly altruism. look, dick, like tim, is a complicated person with multiple motivations sdfsdf)

BUT ANYWAY imo you can see that overly-cautious restraint in tim even in the implied backstory of LPoD - we learn that tim didn't discover robin's identity yesterday; he discovered it years ago, and didn't talk to them even though he could've. so we know tim needs a real need to kick him out of his natural caution in order to act, and i do think tim's vague daydreams would've never translated into action without the terrifying duty-bound impetus of "oh no batman is actually in trouble, i have to actually do something now."

but once he is committed to doing something he is very determined about it, and although i do think tim perceives "talk to dick" as the sensible and appropriate and responsible plan, which is why it's the one he pursues....

...in his heart of hearts, i mean, c'mon. he cannot believe his luck when it turns out that maybe he could be robin instead.

for very upright responsible reasons of course. if anyone asks. :D

okay ive been digesting LPoD and thinking about the "tim forced his way into being robin" and the thing is.

he kind of did?

like yes, he didn't go in saying "I want to be robin", he didn't blackmail them to make him robin, and he said he was totally willing to not be robin if batman said no.

but at the same time. he mentions he used to fantasise about being robin, that batman and robin inspired him to study hard and work out. he jumps at the chance to put on the robin suit and go save batman and nightwing, as much as he jumps at the chance to solve the circus murder earlier. when he punches out two-face he says "I've worked out, I've practiced half my life... studied Karate... but i still didn't know if i could really hold my own." he's thought about being robin and fighting crime, and taken steps to become somebody who could do that.

and from a writer's perspective this is all flashing neon signs to say "this kid isn't jason todd" and "we are listening to your feedback and that you want robin back, here is a Perfect Robin for you" and "here's why our modern readership should suspend their disbelief and let Robin still be a character". tim is talking to the audience as much as he is the other characters.

but in-universe? he really does elbow his way into the dynamic. that's part of his charm! he's a well meaning kid who will meddle with other peoples lives to try and make them better. that's superhero behaviour!

and he very quickly goes from "dick should be robin again" to "well if there's nobody else..." it's very much like "oh does nobody else want to last slice of cake? well i guess if nobody else is going to eat it then i'll have to, so it wont go stale, definitely not for my own sake and because i really want to eat this cake"

and bruce ends up agreeing with what he said about batman and robin being symbolic, dick gives him the go-ahead, and alfred is the first person to verbally suggest tim becoming robin.

but him being pushy and kinda forcing himself into bruce and dick's life. yeah that's pretty much what happened, and him later reflecting on it as "forcing them to make him robin" would be a valid way for him, as a character, to perceive what he did.

[danny-chase]

The whole 'Lazarus Pit Madness' sounds like something some author decided to explore in a fic and suddenly BAM, everyone was using that or thinking it was canon. It happens a lot in the fandom, like Stephanie loving waffles or baby stalker Tim Drake. Honestly I'm really curious if the whole "Bruce started using Jason's death as a cautionary tale/he dismissed Jason's accomplishments as Robin" is true or also popular fanon. Any thoughts on that one?

So like... it's hard to say and it's also tricky territory because author's 100% come off as victim blamey when they have characters talk about Jason as Robin because they needed to somehow justify Tim being Robin after Jason died.

Some of this also has to do with the differences between pre-crisis and post-crisis Jason. A lot of the way fandom thinks of Jason's time as Robin seems to be influenced by both - the stealing tires off the Batmobile comes from post-crisis and the happy go lucky kid comes more from pre-crisis. Post-crisis Jason also wasn't around for a ton of time before he died, but he's the one all forms of modern Jason are based off of (in flashbacks as well). (And side note, it's not 100% clear how much of pre-crisis appearances carried over, but I'm 95% sure Jason's appearances in The New Teen Titans/The New Titans carry over because of a few lines surrounding Dick reacting to Jason's death).

Part of the reason fandom claims Jason was turned into a cautionary tale by Bruce is that whenever characters think about Jason they describe him as reckless. These characters do not remember pre-crisis Jason. This is the Jason they remember:

Batman (1940) #415

In this case Jason attacks Crane by himself, putting on a gas mask and throwing a bucket down to smash the glass... despite Bruce telling him not to. He does succeed at taking down the scarecrow but Bruce is annoyed because he didn't follow the instructions and doesn't want him "taking any unnecessary risk before I think he's ready."

It's hardly the only time Bruce scolds Jason for being reckless, in post-crisis, Jason swaps himself for hostages in his very first mission

Batman (1940) #410

(He's also a little nerd which is hilarious like do you mind if i stay up to do extra homework ssbjfjeksks). But I do want to highlight here that at least at first Bruce saw the recklessness not as a problem. In the issue after this he's momentarily dissapointed by Jason losing his temper against Two-Face (he just found out Two-Face was presumed responsible for his father's death).

In #416 Brue calls Jason "sloppy" while narrating and notes that it's not easy keeping him alive. Dick is annoyed because Jason messed up his drug bust (by the end of the issue they do kick ass together and Dick leaves on good terms).

By #421 we're here

Batman (1940) #421

Notably after this is the Felipe Garzonas case and Jason dies shortly after. My point in all this is laying out the context in which Bruce viewed Jason leading up to his death.

Here's some of his narration from #426, the first issue of death in the family.

"I should have known something like this would happen. Robin-- Jason Todd-- had been acting odd of late. Very moody. Resentful. Reckless. That attitude is about to get him killed."

"He obviously has a dangerously high level of aggressive energy to work off."

Basically Bruce comes to the conclusion that he should have like gotten Jason help coping with his parents deaths before he started training him to be Robin and fires Jason from Robin, and from there you know the story. All of this is to point out that Bruce watched Jason steadily grow more violent and reckless up to his death (and before I get angry anons saying all those people deserved it, yes the reason for Jason's actions is understandable, but to Bruce, this is what he's observing). I've seen people almost be surprised when it comes up in recent canon (most recently with the Nightwing Annual). But they started the whole "Jason is reckless" thing right after post-crisis hit.

Now with this added context, when the characters talk about Jason post him dying what they're saying isn't quite as idk damning. Jason dying also recontextualized how Bruce saw his relationship with Dick (remember when he said being reckless was something Dick would have done)

From The New Titans #55

Bruce: "You were lucky. When you didn't listen to me, your injuries weren't fatal. Of course, by the time I properly trained you--"

Dick: "Bruce, c'mon... lay off. I'm not here to fight."

And later

Bruce: "Why did I think I needed a partner? They slow you down! They make you worry about them rather than doing your job! He wouldn't listen. He wanted to do everything his way. He was just like you. In a few years I would have had to fire him as I did to you."

And so to some extent Dick has also been recontextualized as a reckless Robin in the modern era, most notably in his Robin: Year One story and in his origin story which has been told countless times. So this phenomenon isn't unique to Jason it's part of how DC justifies Bruce taking the first two Robins in, in the first place.

Now getting to the times in canon where Jason's been discussed to the younger members of the Batfam. First off we have Tim, who already knows Jason died and wasn't really told anything about it. In his introduction he kind of has a weird bias against Jason.

From Batman (1940) #440

Tim (narrating): "He [Bruce] seemed happier with Dick."

He also is pretty obsessed with Dick. Even recounting their first meeting he talks about remembering nothing about the circus except Dick and the show, and had tons of nightmares due to the whole watching Dick's parents die thing, which cemented the quadruple flip in his brain. So he's pretty biased. Anyways, no one actually told him what really happens and he makes a lot of assumptions about Jason, based on the news reports and clips he's seen of post-crisis Jason (he was also following the news on Dick as well). Here's how he talks about Jason (and remember, Dick and Bruce haven't actually told him anything about Jason):

He's kinder in his analysis of Jason here, Detective Comics #618:

Tim (narrating): "When Gotham needed him, he was there. When the Batman needed him, he was there. He was a hero. But he was nothing special, really. Just a boy, who was taught-- trained-- brought to his full potential by someone who knew how. Just a boy... like me. I can do it. I know I can. One day I'll be as good as Jason. One day I'll wear the suit."

From Batman (1940) #445, he's more judgemental:

Tim (narrating): "You think my anger will boil over, the way Jason's did. I can assure you, it won't."

And in the next issue he hallucinates/dreams (he wakes up at the end) Dick and Jason and here's what his mind conjures up:

Batman (1940) #456

😬😬😬😬 So 100% Jason was turned into a cautionary tale here, but it wasn't by Bruce it was by Tim. It's not completely bad takes all the time, though, the arc shows he feels pressure to live up to the mantle's expectations (Dick making the mantle a world wide icon and Jason dying for it are 2 things he cites).

Now the next time I recall Jason being brought up by Tim is when Dick and Tim have the following conversation, and for context this is also the issue where Dick tells the story of almost getting beaten to death by Two Face.

Robin (1993) #0 aka Tim forces Dick to talk about his trauma because we needed exposition

Dick (about Two Face story): "Look, can we talk about this later?"

Tim: "I'm sorry, Nightwing. It's just that you can answer lot of questions for me."

Dick: "Okay, fire another one at me."

Tim: "How about Jason Todd?"

Dick: "You don't throw softballs, do you? Jason was a different case. He was a street kid, a thief. Batman saw something in Jason-- a toughness. Maybe he decided it was time for a new kind of Robin. Jason had the right stuff. He held his own against the worst Gotham had to offer. But Jason was reckless. The role of Robin turned him into a daredevil. He took chances. Openly defied Batman's orders."

<cutting in for a second, you'll notice Dick is repeating to Tim something Bruce told him back in their fight in The New Titans #55>

Dick: "And that's what killed him. He went solo against the Joker. I never thought there'd be another Robin after that."

And I'm not sure why Dick came to this conclusion, unlike Tim he wasn't following the news, and he met Jason. Bruce never actually told Dick how Jason died, so my assumption is that at some point he read the case file, which may or may not have had Bruce noting that he fired Jason for being reckless right before Jason died. And the whole "he died because he was like you" thing definitely left an impact onto how Dick saw Jason. Dick's not lecturing Tim here though about some kind of cautionary tale, Tim asked about Jason and he answered based off his post-crisis memories of Jason.

Post this, Tim brings Jason up in this argument insinuating he thinks Jason was reckless:

Teen Titans (2003) #6

Bruce: "You need to listen to reason, Robin. You're acting too emotional. Disobeying orders, like--"

Tim: "Like Jason?"

Bruce: "You're nothing like Jason."

And being willing to bring up Jason in arguments isn't a one time thing.

Batman: Gotham Knights #26

Dick: "One: as long as you're with Batman-- or me-- you're safe. Neither of us would ever let anything happen to you. Two: We don't quit. Not once has anyone who knows Batman's mission failed to get up again after being knocked down. And three: Batman doesn't kill. Not ever."

Tim: "One: Jason Todd. Two: James Gordon. Three: So far. Sorry."

Which is off the beaten track of cautionary tale but it's still not very respectful of Jason's memory (at least he apologizes in Gotham Knights though).

So that's it for Tim, moving onto Cass. This is the first time Jason's brought up by Bruce to a protege (that I've found). For context Cass lost her perfect fighting skills and Bruce fires her from Batgirl because he doesn't want her getting killed:

Batgirl (2000) #7

This is a pretty far cry from the Bruce we saw before, talking about how reckless Jason was and how Dick was lucky, etc. etc. Out of universe I think this is partly because we don't need to justify Cass becoming Batgirl the way there needed to be justification for Tim (your average joe) becoming Robin. In universe it could point to Bruce having some growth and accepting that all of them are reckless (unfortunately he looses it by the time UTRH happens). To me Jason isn't a cautionary tale here, rather he's the reason Bruce is so committed to keeping his proteges safe.

However probably the scene that people took and ran with is this one (link) from Detective Comics #790. Bruce draws parallels between Jason and Steph here, describing them both at reckless (again, he's not wrong, but he's still a hypocrite), and saying "maybe it's not too late for Stephanie." But he doesn't use this as a cautionary tale for someone straight to their face, he's telling this to Cass, and only Cass. He doesn't go blabbing this theory to Barbara, Dick, or Tim. And it does come out of a legitimate concern of seeing areas where Steph and Jason were similar. However he is using Jason's death to justify keeping Steph out of action. (Side note: which is complete bullshit, the way he treats Steph screams of misogyny because she's not all that much different than Tim and it's implied by Alfred he used her as Robin to bait Tim into coming back) Anyways, this all happens right before War Games and so... this was basically a scene foreshadowing Steph's death.

Something else to point out is Cass notes that no one ever talks about Jason. They don't bring him up willy nilly - neither Dick or Bruce likes talking about Jason.

Onto Damian. I think if Dick tried lecturing Damian about how he needs to be careful or something because Jason died, Damian would call him a loser. After the events of Battle for the Cowl, Damian does his homework on the Red Hood, as even though no one told him anything, he knows enough to insult Jason.

Batman & Robin (2009) #5

Dick: "Jason Todd. Be careful, he's--"

Damian: "The second Robin, the one after you. He looked different the last time we slapped him around."

<side note: the last time they "slapped him around" jason shot damian in the chest and nearly killed him but go off damian 😂>

Damian: "Back for more? I heard you had your brains beaten out by the Joker, but I had no idea you were this big of an idiot."

<side note again: Jason is firmly established as a villain at this point, Damian has 0 allegiances to him and no reason to be kind, especially because Jason nearly killed him last time>

Later in this issue we get Dick's incredibly brief explanation to Damian being:

Dick: "Bruce thought he could save Jason... and he might have if the Joker hadn't gotten to him first with a crowbar and high explosives."

So to Damian, Jason was very much not a cautionary tale.

As for the other kids? Steph never even heard about Jason, because the writers never took her as a serious part of the Batfam (outside of maybe Dixon, who's own writing was steeped in misogyny). Duke roasts Jason for dying, which is hilarious, but in the new52 and rebirth Jason's alive, so there's not really a point to cautionary tales. I don't even know if Harper knows he died.

TL;DR: In the comics I've read, Jason's not treated as a cautionary tale by Bruce for the most part, with a couple exceptions that I've listed here. It's not anywhere close to the magnitude of what fandom makes it out to be 🤷‍♀️

[stxleslyds]

you know how dc keeps forcing this sudden "we're a family" narrative out of nowhere? I'd love batfam content but years of hurt among them make the recent content seem unearned.

bc you know more about dick and jason than the others, how do you think they would realistically become family to each other, or would it even be in character for them to be the "bros" they're written as now?

Oh anon, this question is amazing, I love it! I saw it when I woke up and since then my brain has been brewing this answer, I was thinking about it as I brushed my teeth and as I was making breakfast, and now I am ready to give you the answer, I hope you enjoy reading it as much as I enjoyed thinking/writing about it!

DC keeps forcing the wrong relationships, and they keep forcing the wrong centre of this supposed family, they make it out to be the Bat-Family when in reality the Bat (Bruce) should have never been invited to this party.

This is why I give you the… Dick-Family!

Oh yeah baby, I am going there. Dick is the centre of this “family”, he is the guy who is actually connected with everyone, he has been around for so long and he has been present when almost all of the remaining characters were introduced! Bruce might have come first but that guy has nothing on Dick Grayson.

Dick has cared and loved for everyone in this family in a true and beautiful way, no matter how much fanon and DC try to tell us otherwise. This man was an amazing son to Bruce and Alfred (my love for Alfred and Dick is brought to you by @hood-ex), a fantastic brother to Jason, Tim and Cass as well as a phenomenal father/older brother to Damian.

Dick Grayson is the centre of this whole thing, and thanks to DC now being an Omniverse I will be able to explain my line of thoughts. But first let me clear some ideas up.

The way I see it Jason would only get along good enough with Dick. I am not here for Jason and Tim having brunch together (honestly, Lobdell, what were you thinking), Jason never cared for Tim, and then writers that didn’t know how the Red Hood worked made him try to kill Tim so, to me, that relationship is non-existent, Jason doesn’t really perceive Tim (yet).

Jason and Damian, listen, I know that there is this fanon theory that Jason knew and cared for Damian while he was in the League, but that is just fanon talk and it doesn’t really fit in canon either. Jason wasn’t really capable of doing much other than fight, and after he was put in the Lazarus Pit he either had to leave because Ra’s wanted to kill him or Talia took him to the All-Castle. So, Jason’s only real interactions with Damian would be when Jason was written as a crazy, blood thirsty dude that actually tried to harm a child. So, him and Damian wouldn’t really have a good relationship (yet).

Jason and Cass… that’s just a no. Jason and Barbara, I mean Barbara was older than Dick when she first met Jason, so they wouldn’t have much of a relationship.

Now, lets move on to how I will make the Dick-Family work.

Dick (bless him) actually talks and listens to people, unlike Bruce, so the change would start there. Let’s set the timeline, I will stand right after the events of Under the Red Hood. Bruce just chose saving Joker over letting Jason kill the Joker and the building they were in exploded.

Batman keeps on being himself (trash) and Jason, having survived the explosion, moves on to keep on building his empire. He really wants to control the drug trade in Gotham, so he works on that, he slowly but surely takes his place as a drug lord again and is a constant pain in Black Mask’s ass.

While Jason is doing that, Dick is trying to put together his life after Bludhaven was attacked with Chemo. Let’s say that Bludhaven isn’t completely erased from the map but he does have to leave so the city can be re-built. He goes to Gotham, where the Red Hood works.

Let’s say that Alfred told Dick who was under the Red Hood, so Dick being a good brother goes looking for Jason. Their first interaction out of the mask wouldn’t be nice, Jason barely remembers his life before the pit and he really is convinced that Dick is the absolute worst.

But then Jason being a nosy man would make an appearance, for some reason, let’s say that he hacks into the Batcave and when he does that he finds some footage… The footage in question would be the one which shows Bruce punching Dick and sort of blaming him for Jason’s death. (Oh yeah, I am going there). The footage will make a memory come to mind, Dick taking Jason on a skying trip.

So, the next time that Dick and Jason see each other is because Jason went looking for Dick and here is where these two actually talk. The way I see it, Dick is more flexible with the no killing rule, he has worked many times with people that are villains or that just have different ways of doing things. So, I think that he would understand where Jason’s coming from with his ideas. As they begin to understand one another Jason begins to recover more and more memories from before the Pit.

They get together once a week and they chat about life as well as vigilante stuff. They become friends.

At the same time Dick is also very good friends with Tim and also acts like the amazing big brother he is with him. They chat, they sometimes work together and one day they come across a very complicated situation involving a new drug being introduced in Gotham.

Dick would call Jason and now both of them and Tim are reunited in a safe house working together so this new drug doesn’t fall in the wrong hands. Jason and Tim wouldn’t really like each other. Both of them are there for Dick and because they have to get the job done.

That’s how I see Dick forming the Dick-Family unconsciously. Hell, I will introduce Barbara now. Do you guys remember that in UtRH Barbara was mad with Bruce and didn’t want to work with him but she was still in contact with Dick? Well, I am using that so it can fit my narrative.

Dick, Jason and Tim need more intel so Dick calls Oracle (real Oracle) and because Barbara trusts Dick she works with them.

Here is where it gets interesting, through Barbara, Dick meets Cass, through Tim he meets Stephanie. You see that Dick’s connections are leading him to form a group of people. Cass and Stephanie are trained by Babs and Dick and they become the new Batgirls.

As all of that keeps developing Jason and Dick become “partners in crime” they help each other, they start building a brotherly relationship again. Although Jason refuses to say that out loud.

Then comes in Damian, a difficult child if there has ever been one but he has Bruce so Dick doesn’t have to jump in that fast… right?

Oh brother! Bruce is dead (omg what would we do? Battle for the cowl maybe? No!). with Bruce gone there is only one person who can take his place and everyone knows it has to be Dick.

Dick would feel a lot of things as he is taking Bruce’s place as Batman but he has a group of people ready to back him up (Alfred, Jason, Tim, Babs, Cass, Steph), and he also has to take care of Damian, he is a child and with his father gone then maybe his mother would want to take him back to the League of Assassins, Dick obviously doesn’t want that so he talks to Tim and tells him that he sees him as his equal and that he has a plan to make Damian stay and it involves making Damian his new Robin.

Tim would obviously be sad and a little hurt, but he understands Dick’s decision because they talked about it and Dick actually took the time to explain why he was doing what he was doing (really DC half of the problems you guys come up could be fixed in seconds if people would only take some time to just TALK!).

Dick and Damian work as Batman and Robin and Dick starts assuming the position of his father. They would live with Alfred in the penthouse and maybe Tim will join them from time to time (when he wasn’t busy with Young Justice/Teen Titans stuff). Slowly Dick and Damian will become the Dynamic Duo that we love today.

So, Dick would have his own Robin, Oracle (who is also managing her own team with Black Canary and (why not) the Batgirls), Red Robin and Red Hood working with him if he needs them. They are always a call away. Jason is the most difficult to reach and he will only involve himself in that kind of drama if its about controlling the drug trade or scaring the living shit out of some very shady people.

So, Red Hood wouldn’t be working with the new (and improved) Batman but Jason would hang out with Dick sometimes.

From there they build up. Dick renovates Arkham Asylum and makes it work they way that it is supposed to work. He might also recruit Catwoman when he needs someone really sneaky, they have known each other for so long, I bet Selina loves Dick, she would certainly help him out.

But as all things do, this happy and well-connected Dick-Family is disrupted when Bruce comes back, he inserts himself slowly back into his role as Batman and as he does that Dick starts to move away from it.

But Dick’s connections are strong and well cared for, so, even when he goes back to Bludhaven and starts fresh (again) as Nightwing those connections remain. Oracle still gives him intel, Robin and Red Robin come over to Bludhaven to patrol, maybe they even have their own rooms at Dick’s place.

With Bludhaven functioning again, all of the terrible people that were working there also come back, maybe some of them never left and they have been corrupting the city from its very core. So, when Jason tells Dick that he would like to expand his operations to Bludhaven, Dick says yes, as long as Jason keeps him updated on his work and also lets him know what is going on.

I think it works! What do you guys think so far?

From then on with the whole Dick-Family being connected and strong I think they can actually act and solve their problems as a family. All those arcs that didn’t work very well because Bruce was in the middle of it being a jerk, I think they will work if Dick is at the centre of it. Let’s say that Bruce hid the fact that Joker knows their identities and all that, with such a strong family the second that the Joker tries to manipulate Jason into believing that he created him, Dick will come out of the shadows and shut that bullshit down. If Joker tries to do something to the Circus, then the Birds of Prey and the Robins will be there in seconds helping Dick.

The Court of Owls, those little shits wouldn’t stand a chance against this team, this force of nature! Jason would be the one working from afar because you know my boy wouldn’t be subjected to the “no-killing” rule but if he does it, he has to do it away from the children (Damian) and away from Cass, if he doesn’t want to know real trouble. (He probably arranged those things with Dick a long time ago and he is happy with it).

Now, please forgive me but for angst reasons I will actually let the events of, Batman Incorporated #8, Forever Evil, Nightwing #30 and Spyral run its course.

Let me explain, after Damian’s death Dick holds the Dick-Family together, as well as Bruce because he is amazing like that, but then after Dick supposedly dies, things change just a little bit. Jason would retreat back to his own corner because the only thing attaching him to the Dick-Family was Dick but he would also keep his eyes open and he might also have a direct line with Oracle if things go south.

Aside from Jason, I do see the others working on keeping their connections intact. When Damian eventually returns the land of the living, I can see all of them coming together even more because that’s what Dick would have wanted.

And then Dick will come back from Spyral and here is where the Dick-Family will show the “Bat-Family” why its superior to it in every aspect possible.

The Dick-Family will notice that something must have happened, Dick would never play dead and leave them like that, but Dick loves Bruce and he doesn’t want to tell them the truth, Bruce has no memories now and his family doesn’t deserve that kind of drama BUT Jason and Tim are suspicious, they know Dick at this point and they trust him so they firmly believe that he is hiding something to protect someone. And here is where life repeats itself. Let’s review the Batcave’s footage, yes, I did it again, I just love the fact that Bruce has footage of himself being the absolute worst to his kids, how does DC not use it! Anyway, Tim and Jason find the footage from the events of Nightwing #30 and suddenly the Dick-Family have their “Dick defence squad” jackets on and they are ready to party.

After all that Bruce eventually gets his memories back and he is held accountable for his actions. Also, around this time the events of Robin War would have already happened so Duke is also introduced. Dick lets him join and all that, and then Duke and Cass become besties and they work together.

And yeah, as Rebirth comes closer the Dick-Family would be more united than ever.

The end.

That is how I would have done it. But this way is slow, and DC wouldn’t be able to monetize it as much as they would want.

Jason wouldn’t be giving hugs and calling everyone their brother or sister, he will only get along with Dick and he would be professional with everyone else.

Tim and Damian would get along but they wouldn’t go for ice cream together on a sunny day. Steph and Damian would and so would Cass and Tim or Cass and Duke.

Oracle would work with Dick and the others as a side thing because her main thing would be the Birds of Prey, this time with Helena too.

Alfred would spend his time with Bruce but he would also be very aware of Dick and his influence on everyone around them. Bruce eventually would be integrated to the Dick-Family because Dick is a sweetheart but Dick would also make Bruce follow his rules, Dick is a little bean but he is also the most badass person in the room (whichever room) so you better listen to what he has to say.

The Dick-Family would be something that grows silently and doesn’t need a “Joker War” in order for them to be there for each other, they would try their best each step of the way and they will talk things out when mistakes are made.

This is the way that I see this family dynamic working.

I would even go as far as to say that Talia can be part of the Dick-Family because she is connected to three people, Dick, Damian and Jason.

Dick is the person with most connections in the DC Universe, the Titans, the Justice League, Deathstroke, they all have connections to this treasure of a man. If he needs help in Gotham or Bludhaven then he can call people from the “first circle”, if things are beyond a “street level” threat them he can call the Titans and if shit really hits the fan, Clark and the others are a call away.

Anyway, this was unnecessarily long, I am sorry about it but I am also not because I really don’t know how to answer your question without going on a long rant.

In conclusion the Bat-Family doesn’t work and sadly it wouldn’t work no matter how much they force it. These people don’t have connections, Bruce is not able to make connections between people. And DC has erased entire relationships that Dick used to have. I mean, they got rid of Dick and Tim being close brothers just so they could give us a shitty brunch between Tim and Jason? Only yesterday we saw a true and beautiful interaction between Dick and Damian.

DC is handling the “Bat-Family” in all the worst possible ways. It just doesn’t work.

They should have used Dick all those years ago and they shouldn’t have destroyed Jason’s characterization with Lobdell’s ideas.

So, sadly, my dear anon, I don’t see the Bat-Family as a in character thing for any of these people as they are written currently, but I hope that you enjoyed my version of it. May the Dick-Family bring everyone who reads about it a little joy!

[fsketchart]

Daminette December - Fire

Slight angst sorry also taglist coming very soon so yay also @noirdots ur the best thanks.  Also this is absolutely not realistic rip. Enjoy!

Marinette was oohing and ahhing as she walked around the New year's festival.  Everyone was gathered around the center of the festival as a parade marched down, and from the very back she could see a huge float.  She was getting excited and whipped out her phone to take a video for her family. Next to her, Kagami was jumping up excitedly. She had never seen a parade before.

Marinette and Kagami could only watch in awe as the large float from the end began to make their way to them.  They marveled at how much organization and elegance, and of course patience, it must have taken to make such a large float.

------

Bruce was already banging his head against the table.  He and his family were asked to run one of the floats this year, and unfortunately, the people who run Gotham's annual New Year's parade decided to make a Bat Family themed float.

Since they obviously couldn't dress as themselves, they each took turns going outside to the front of the float to perform and pretend to be another bat fam member other than themselves.  It was becoming a disaster.

When it was Dick's turn, he had to pretend to be Red Hood and he was having way too much fun with it.  He dressed up in a mock version of a Red Hood outfit. When he went outside, he took advantage of the moment.

"HIYA Y'ALL!  Y'ALL ARE LOOKING LIKE QUEEEEENS TODAY!  I HOPE Y'ALL ARE HAVING THE TIME OF YOUR LIVES BECAUSE I TOTES AM!  LEMME HEAR Y'ALL MAKE SOME NOISE!"

The crowd screamed as fans began to reach out towards him.  Dick winked back.

"CAN I JUST SAY THANK YOU TO MY AMAZING CO-WORKER, MY BUDDY, PAL, BROTHER FROM ANOTHER MOTHER, NIGHTWING?  LIKE HE'S SO AMAZING. AM I RIGHT Y'ALL?"

The crowd screamed even louder as people grabbed their phones to record.  Marinette and Kagami began to fall over giggling.

"HONESTLY I WISH I WOKE UP LOOKING AS FLAWLESS AS HE DOES...ANYWHO WHO'S READY FOR TONIGHT?  WE'RE PLANNING A SPECIAL SURPRISE FOR Y'ALL, SO BE READY! CAN'T WAIT TO SHOW YOU GUYS WHAT NIGHTWING HAS WORKED SO HARD ON TO MAKE PERFECT!"

The crowd began cheering, "Nightwing!  Nightwing! Nightwing!" Dick waved at them and walked behind the curtains for the float and returned to the back of the float (closed off section that can't be heard from the crowd.)

Jason immediately lunged for him while screaming, as Alfred tried to pull Jason off of him.  Damian just gave them looks of judgement as he suited up. They decided it would be perfect to send him as Batman, but Damian wouldn't accept a mock outfit.  He wore the real Batman suit, but for obvious reasons...that wasn't the prettiest sight. Damian began tripping everyone and when he reached the stairs to go up on stage he stepped on the cape once more and went flying.  He face plants onto the stage Suddenly, the Batman symbol pops up from one of the lights they set up as the crowd cheers. Damian is still trying to adjust the mask that is covering half his body.

Damian is trying his best to do a Batman impression.  He recalls how his father speaks when talking to Dick, and tries his best to imitate it.  The crowd seemed to like Dick, so that's a good sign right?

"Yo my flip was so hip bro," Damian says in an obviously fake deep voice.

The crowd loses it and goes into hysterics.  Kagami is on the ground laughing as Marinette is just in awe at how cute he seems to be.

Damian sees that he clearly isn't having the tough guy effect.  He tries again.

"Why are you all laughing?  I was so...dope," Damian says, but this time his voice cracks at the end.

Kagami is now sobbing on the ground from hysterics as Marinette begins to giggle a bit.  Marinette sees his small smile, and her heart almost stops. She swears she's seen that smile before.

Damian is done.  Go big or go home.  He tries one last time.

"I hope you all are having a... groovy time?" This time Damian tries finger guns for a moment before immediately stopping and just ditching it.  He runs off the stage but trips again on the cape and a loud thud can be heard from behind the curtains. The crowd just laughs, having caught it all on camera.

Marinette is just giggling, before she realizes where she's seen that smile before.  Damian, she realizes. Her cheeks redden a little bit. Kagami is almost passed out beside her but using Marinette to balance herself.  Kagami wipes a tear from her eye while smiling brightly.

------

Damian is running to the closest corner he sees.  He swears he saw Marinette in the corner. He tunes out the rest of the noise, including Dick's yelling at Jason's mock performance of Nightwing, and he just rips off the mask.  He sighs and joins his father in banging their heads against the wall. Alfred already taped a pillow to the wall in preparation. (ಡ ͜ ʖ ಡ @noirdots)

Alfred pats them both on the back.

"Father?" Damian asked.

"It's your brothers.  What about you?" Bruce asked.

"...Marinette."

"The one from school?"

"...Yes.  I think she just saw my little performance."

"Sorry you inherited my love life."

------

After Jason and Tim finished their performances, Bruce was last.  They had to drag him outside to the front. The crowd was screaming at the sight of Bruce in a bright red outfit with green elf shoes and green shorts and a bright black and yellow cape.

Bruce bowed his head in utter shame and humiliation, while all the former robins were getting a kick out of it.  Alfred was recording it.

Bruce wouldn't even speak.  He just stood there awkwardly trying to form words but just settled for awkward silence.  The crowd took photos and Bruce was sure he was going to be on the cover of newspapers and magazines.  Bruce groaned. Clark was going to have a field day.

The robins backstage high fives in their victory.

Jason laughed, knocking off a few boxes.  He made them no mind. Even though the boxes were quite close to some electronic…stuff.  (I'm sorry I don't know what to put here rip.)

------

The last performance, all of them came dressed up, Bruce having to carry Damian to the front because he couldn't see in Bruce's mask.

Together, they took a bow.  Marinette waved from the crowd and Damian got red.  He shyly waved back, still being carried by Bruce piggy back style.

They gathered around and were about to announce some bat fam merchandise when their planned surprise, ended up going off.  Behind them, a loud boom came from behind the stage. Bruce screamed a high pitched scream while everyone else just stared.  The crowd was confused while the bat fam was panicking. They weren't planning on setting on the surprise until later. That's when Jason remembered the boxes.  He slowly walked behind Dick and hid there.

Suddenly, fireworks were exploding from behind them.  The fireworks were designed to show the Batman symbol, and little logos for each bat fam member.  They were all being set off at once, and Jason was severely panicking by now. That's when Alfred noticed the look on his face and in turn, returned Jason with a judgemental one.  Everyone turned to him.

The crowd was still in awe of the fireworks, oohing and ahing.  Marinette was excited as she hugged Kagami next to her. Kagami returned the hug.

Meanwhile Damian was still clinging onto Bruce for dear life and Jason was screaming.  Dick was running around asking for a fire extinguisher or whatever he could find while Tim was trying to get everyone off the float.  That was when the crowd realized this wasn't supposed to happen. And that's when they smelled the burning.

Marinette darted forwards from the crowd.  Her parents have had plenty of accidents in the bakery before, and began trying to evacuate people.

Kagami already dialed 911 and everyone was screaming.

Bruce led the way off the float while but in the mess, Damian fell off his shoulders.  Everyone kept pushing and shoving each other trying to get away from the float. They pushed and shoved Bruce farther and farther away from the float.

Marinette saw the Wayne family exiting the float, but with no Damian in sight.

Bruce noticed Damian was missing and immediately ran back.  He was screaming his name and that's when Marinette realized what had happened.

A short girl passed Bruce and shoved him out of her way.  She was running towards the float and Bruce let out a curse.  She kept running and running while screaming his name. That's when Bruce joined her.  They entered the burning float and saw his lying there unconscious. Bruce grabbed him, but before they could leave, the roof collapsed.  Marinette jumped into action, trying to hold the roof of the float up. She was muttering under her breath, and Bruce could only hear the name Tikki.  Marinette's eyes seemed just the tiniest bit brighter, as she tried to keep the ceiling together. Bruce ran out and Marinette followed behind him, just barely missing being crushed by the roof.  They ran out of there and onto the front stage. Marinette pointed near the edge and suggested they try to jump there. Bruce nodded and together they jumped off the edge of the float.

Kagami finally saw them on the float and raced forwards.  Marinette broke her ankle, but Bruce managed to land alright.  Kagami grabbed Marinette and ran, Bruce following behind her.

------

Jason apologised profusely to all of them and even offered to wear the OG Robin outfit as a punishment for a whole week.  The bat fam agreed, and while his pride was tarnished, Jason deemed it worth it. However, Dick added that he had to keep a post it note on his forehead at all times saying, "I am so not cool beans." He was also required to say goodbye with, "toodles." Damian approved.

Bonus : Damian's face wearing the Batman mask.

[variablejabberwocky]

thinking about potential names for bitty!bruce's vigilante persona (didn't want to put this on the long chain of good ideas so i found the bit with the first mention of anti-robin, but they ARE good ideas and people should follow that thread for delicious funny angst) and i think WHICH name he goes by is gonna shape how the story unfolds but here are some ideas:

ROBIN - just strait up robin. little bruce did his research and saw kid vigilantes have themes based on where they're at/from and in gotham kid heroes are Robins, so he's a robin. obviously. it was good enough for his new dad guardian its good enough for him. dick is unhappy this little shit is being brainwashed into everything he thought he got PAST as robin. damian is pissed this pretender who has already slandered his honor is also Taking His Spot that Father refuses to give him yet. even funnier if while bitty!bruce was stealing jason's memorialized suit he also like idk stole tim's old suit? just ripped the trackers out of it/hacked them to be on hood's wavelength instead of the bats and went 'hey its a free costume'. tim would be so confused and OBSESSED. someone is pulling a him, is it damian? is he trying to take robin from him? is everyone else in on it? is this them trying to train his own replacement without telling him? are they trying to let him down easy or just slowly stonewall him out? like the confusion would be cleared up when he's spotted with hood, but there for a hot second? oof tim's insecurities would act up

ANTI-ROBIN - bitty!bruce did his research like above but CLEARLY he is the superior bruce, and his new dad guardian can beat up your dad is OBVIOUSLY training him better than big!bruce trains his robins, so clearly he is a living critique of big!bruce's methods and the antithesis of his robins. (let little bruce give off maximum damian vibes! its funny AND sad!) the costume could be like inverted colors of robin or the same colors but in the opposite locations.

BAT BOY - let this little angry spicy bean take one look at his alternate universe Big Self and go 'hold my flower'. he WILL be the superior bat themed vigilante, he's already got a head start by Not Sucking At Caring About Jason. he's Got This! your choice of if its just a robin costume dyed black/grey or if he goes full Batman But Miniature about it.

MINI HOOD - maybe he doesn't pick a name on his own, maybe he just gets called something enough to answer to it. i mean he follows Hood around like a lost little duckling and his glower is no joke either. look they even have the same temper! plus this is bruce we're talking about, he ABSOLUTELY has the capacity to be a little mimic. i mean 'brucie wayne' had to come from somewhere. so what if he intentionally picks up on more and more of jason's little mannerisms and body language. he wants to be more like his new dad guardian! plus helmets are practical.

BLUE JAY - i've seen a lot of stories where ALL the former robins become other birds when they outgrow the robin mantle and a frequent one is cardinal. but this is the antithesis of a robin and i've seen a lot of stuff with bluejays and cardinals together as Opposite Brightly Colored Birds Of Winter. so: blue jay. it would also be a little bit of a fuck you to nightwing since he went from mostly red outfit to mostly blue and i can see bruce planning to do the opposite of the Original Robin AND its a subtle nod to jason being his guardian. and you could do so many different things with the costume! is it basically a black and blue robin costume? is it a miniature of the old grey and blue batman costume? is it a tiny red hood but with blue instead of red? is it an entirely different costume unlike any others? is it modeled after the current robin (tim) to show he's the equivalent?

Prompt:

Jason gets booted to another dimension and adopts a recently orphaned Bruce Wayne.

Whom he also takes along for the ride when he’s pulled back into his own dimension.

[fantastic-nonsense]

So there's...lots of things to address here, both in your original replies and this response.

One, you can scratch the entire conversation about Nicieza. I have no real objection to the core thesis you've presented re: him and his writing, but RR #12 was written by Chris Yost (thanks to @mollyhats for correcting me) and thus conversations on how Nicieza portrays Tim and/or Damian aren't actually relevant here. I also, once again, generally have no real objection to you pointing out that Tim has also engaged in quite a bit of casual sexism over the years; my comment there was simply to point out that Tim's sexism (tragically) doesn't tend to be framed poorly because of a) when his comics were written and b) who was writing them, whereas Damian's casual sexism is often deliberately framed in-universe as shitty behavior. And we can talk about sexism in Tim's comics if you want, but frankly that's a different conversation for another post.

Two, I take the point about writers portraying him that way without "the intention to experience growth" and inserting casual misogyny as a shorthand for 'annoying.' However, at the end of the day that's what the writing shows: in his earlier Reborn-era appearances, Damian throws around casually cruel and sexist remarks towards women on a semi-consistent basis. By the time we get to the New 52, he's basically not doing so anymore. That change happens for a variety of reasons, including different writers, genuinely intentional character development, and changing IRL cultural consciousness on casual sexism. But that original mentality is consistently shown in canon, and to deny it's there seems silly when it's a pattern of behavior that persists across multiple books and multiple writers.

Three, regarding your original replies:

It feels kind of disingenuous to represent stuff where he's a side character being played up as annoying as a genuine character to flaw when In most of those cases it was where he was a side character being played up as annoying. Even in his main comic by Morriston the sexism isn't there.

Funnily enough, Damian doesn't actually have many interactions with women that are written by Morrison. The only woman he really interacts with on-panel until Battle for the Cowl is Talia, and he's so blatantly OOC in BftC it's not really fair to use that as a basis for judgement either way (even if it was a Morrison comic, which it isn't).

That leaves the Reborn era: In Morrison's 16 B&R issues, Damian shares panel time with only two women: Talia, who is obviously an exception to this conversation because she's his mom, and Sasha, Jason's sidekick and an exceptional case because Damian felt personally responsible for her as a civilian he failed to save. The only other woman in B&R he interacts with? Una Nemo in #18-19, written by guest writer Paul Cornell, and Damian is suspiciously quiet and lacking in dialogue in general during those two issues; his dialogue is largely short, to the point, and...mostly directed at Dick apart from a few jabs at how "psychotic" Una is.

It's quite odd in hindsight, actually. He's getting his spine replaced when Dick goes to England to work with Knight and Squire, he never has a conversation with Kate Kane despite being on the same rooftop after the Clone!Bruce debacle, neither Babs nor Steph ever show up as guest-stars, and all of Morrison's B&R villains are men (except Sasha). Thus, it's actually impossible to answer the question using his "main writer/comic" as a basis for comparison.

So if we can't answer that question using Morrison-written work, what we're left with is this: how does Damian talk about and interact with women in Streets of Gotham+his various significant guest appearances in Batgirl/Red Robin/Gotham City Sirens/Teen Titans/World's Finest/etc? The answer: generally not great.

He's professional and fairly caring with civilian victims, but with other heroes? He seems to have two modes: "I lowkey love you because you're super competent and/or willing to kill" (Katana in Streets of Gotham, Supergirl in Superman/Batman, his references to Cass when talking to Steph in Batgirl) or "you've either disrespected me and/or aren't worth my time and are thus subject to regular gendered insults" (Stephanie across multiple books, Selina in Gotham City Sirens, Donna in JLA, actually interacting with Cass during most of Gates of Gotham). But even in the first instances, writers often inserted casual misogyny into Damian's dialogue:

"Tried to find something appropriate--more matronly or that of a streetwalker--but they were fresh out." -Superman/Batman #77

The one exception to the explicitly gendered insults during that era seems to be his team-up with the Teen Titans in #88-92, which was published around the same time as his team-up with Kara, and that mission (along with his rocky start but eventual connection with Rose Wilson in those issues) is also explicitly framed as something that changed Damian and his behavior:

"I can see the changes. Damian was more patient this time before making his move. Waited for me to draw their attention fully. And I recognize some new moves. And he hasn't even used one of his blades." -Teen Titans (2003) #92

Like I said before, he gets a lot better about it as the Reborn era progresses, particularly in Steph's Batgirl comic (where that growth is clearly deliberate given the entire run is written by Bryan Q. Miller), but he still obviously has some issues to work on given his comments to and about Cass in Gates of Gotham:

"I've seen the condescending looks you give, woman. You think I can't cut it, huh?" /// "Cassandra's not useless." "No. She's spineless, naive, and fragile. And I don't trust her."

And whether or not all of those comments were written to "play up" Damian's brattiness or make other characters look better in comparison, the point is that it's a generally consistent character trait that pops up repeatedly across no less than 8 separate books and writers in a little over 2 years. It's notable, the lack of those comments later on is also notable, and to say it should be "dismissed" because they were guest appearances or "written to prop up other characters" ignores the characterization consistency for convenient dismissal of behavior.

I'm just...honestly not really sure what your point with this argument is. It's okay for kid characters to have genuine behavioral flaws that they grow out of, especially when those flaws are clearly the product of how they were raised rather than a core belief they actually hold. I don't understand the need to cover up Damian's flaws and engage in whataboutism re: Tim when it's a genuinely interesting example of character progression. Damian grows up and visibly un-learns toxic behavior, and that's fantastic, especially when viewed in context of the multitude of female friendships and other relationships with women he now has. I'm happy that Damian has a lot of female friends and good relationships with his various big sister(ish) figures, I'm happy the casual sexism is gone, and I'm happy the writers who thought it was okay to write those things are gone too. It's really not that complicated.

Damian Wayne ending up with so many healthy relationships with women and lots of female friends after his early Morrison-era characterization as a baby misogynist: