#now s3-s4 is a different conversation

[catdammitjackie]

the only time i have ever legitimately had a issue with my favorite character’s hair was probably for clarke griffin… i’m sorry but they HATED that girl.. she always had the worst hair with the exception of s2.. oh and caroline forbes post humanity switch.. just dreadful

[biancadoes1]

YOUR FAVORITE ANON HERE

I've been thinking of the recently released pap pics and the circulation they are making from DM to E! News to People Magazine and every gossip site in between. And I have THOUGHTS...

First thing to remember: Nicola has always told us to pay attention and listen to the story SHE IS TELLING YOU and not the one you read on gossip sites.

Back in August, Nicola attended the music festival on Sunday, August 18th. We did not see any papped pics of her and JD until one week later on Sunday, August 25th when the Irish Sun published an online article. I believe that the pap company may have reached out to try and sell the pics to Nic's team first and and when they would not pay the (typically) exorbitant fee, they may have negotiated for the company to not allow them to be released until 8/25. This was the day before the Kate Spade release which would help bury the pictures. It also gave Nic an opportunity on Thursday, August 22nd to update her insta grid with the "it's all yours" post for Luke. This is a subtle nod to fans that HER STORY includes Luke.

Here we are now. I am of the belief that these pictures were taken in late September (pre-NYC). I think someone may have been following Nic and JD with an agenda to obtain these pictures for nefarious reasons. The photos were taken and were held for a "rainy day." It is important to note there is an entire faction of the "fandom" actively rooting against Nicola and Luke and going to extreme lengths to collect evidence for this Nicola and JD narrative. On Wednesday, October 16th, Nicola's TIME article was released online and included an entire paragraph about Luke including a line about people wanting them to get married. This took the internet by storm and I can only assume angered those with the opposing narrative. So they have the photos released. Again, I'm sure the photos were attempted to be shopped to her team and they once again declined with the caveat of one week til release. The next four days include a media blitz on the internet. Interviews and clips from the S3 World Tour are re-released along with never been seen footage. Interviewers were conversing with fans about the chemistry and love between Nicola and Luke. This all culminated on Monday, October 21st when Nicola surprised everyone with a selfie of her and Luke. I do NOT believe this was the "S4 Polin Selfie" - this was purely just a spur of the moment selfie between two people in love. And I believe this was a repeat of her "it's all yours" situation from August and she was telling everyone that HER STORY IS LUKE. Tuesday, October 22nd ends with Nicola posting a random story about a "paper moon" which can also be used to describe a fake relationship or situation - an ominous warning to all fans involved.

Once the pictures were dropped by Deuxmoi on Wednesday, October 23rd, tags on Nicola's instagram were actively being deleted. The night ended with 10 pictures from the pap drop remaining in her tagged section and more of them were deleted the following day. By end of the day on Thursday 10/24, the "date night" pics were spread to all the major gossip sites including E! News, Entertainment Tonight, and People Magazine. All of these sources cited the pictures as being taken on different dates: Monday 10/22, Tuesday 10/23, the week of 10/15 - the true mark of a sketchy situation.

I want to end this by acknowledging that I know the fandom is frustrated and upset but I think it's important to not feel "duped" by Nicola. I do not believe she was involved in what occurred with these pictures. She was purely walking home with her FRIEND and they may have been a little closer but I think that can be chalked up to him helping her and covering her through the scary situation - imagine if you were walking home one night and got ambushed by cameras on a side street! Her team did work on the front end with the media push of the old clips and she posted a pic with Luke for everyone. At this point, they're just letting her name be out there and living up to the old adage of "no press is bad press." I PROMISE YOU that this is not a PR situation that they will not be able to get out of. There will be a plan in place and she will get through this.

And from this point on, it IS important to remember the following: PAY ATTENTION TO THE STORY NICOLA IS TELLING YOU AND NOT THE STORY THAT DEUXMOI AND THE GOSSIP SITES ARE TELLING YOU. And if you feel the need to spiral, it might be time to take some time off away from social media because none of this affects any of us personally. We just want Nicola and Luke to be happy and healthy!

My favorite anon never misses.

Make you sure you all study this.

I WILL be testing you on this later.

[buddierecs]

mutual pining buddie fics pt2

all explicit rating - 18+ only!!!! make sure to kudos/comment on these amazing works :)

i like you so much (it's kinda gross) by: aficatyourfingerstips, brewrosemilk "eddie is an MMA fighter and buck thirsts on twitter" word count: 10k important tags: celebrity au, social media, texting, sexting breathe out now and we fall back in by: withoutthetiger "set during the summer after 5b, buck and eddie are complete idiots (affectionate) while they pretend to be in love and then realize they haven't been pretending at all. It's just a lot of fake dating, written for the prompt "you could never hurt me." word count: 32k important tags: fake dating, friends to lovers, touching, first dates, first kiss, grinding, hand jobs, blow jobs, anal sex stupid people by: brewrosemilk "new in los angeles, and having recently admitted to himself that he's gay, eddie figures that hiring a sex worker might be a good way to keep his private life cut off from his job and his son. a way to keep things from becoming too complicated. it works. for a while." word count: 160k important tags: different first meetings au, sex worker!evan buckley, friends with benefits, friends to lovers, multimedia, blow jobs, rough sex, praise kink, come slut!evan buckely, light dom!sub, phone sex, riding if i need you to rearrange my particles - i will for you by: dylaesthetics "buck joins a support app for first responders and matches with a firefighter who has ptsd and a kid who likes giraffes, apparently." word count: 45k important tags: secret identity, texting, ptsd, anxiety, panic attacks, sexuality crisis, sexting, masturbation, getting together  to feel the need of your touch by: honestlydarkprincess "the one where buck is touchstarved and desperate for eddie. they fuck but it's also really sweet." word count: 7.5k important tags: light dom/sub, hurt/comfort, oral sex, anal sex, barebacking, evan buckley has a praise kink, dom!eddie diaz, sub!evan buckley, porn with feelings

while we do what lovers do by: withoutthetiger "set during s3/s4, featuring a lot of sex and angst and love and beautiful idiots (affectionate) who could always save themselves some trouble if they had one thoroughly honest conversation." word count: 27k important tags: first with benefits, hurt/comfort, feelings realisation, idiots in love, porn with feelings, hand jobs, blow jobs, rimming, anal sex doin' something unholy by: bekkachaos "eddie makes a tiktok account so he can monitor chris' activity on the app, and he stumbles across buck’s profile. It’s a lot of silly trends, a couple with chris (previously eddie approved), but when he scrolls to the newest video it’s one of those transition thirst traps and oh yeah, eddie’s been sucked in, hard." word count: 7.4k important tags: tik tok, feelings realisation, getting together, masturbation, voyeurism

cause in my head i do everything right / when you call i'll forgive and not fight by: aficatyourfingertips, eddiediazisascorpio "the one where buck and eddie are separated." word count: 31k important tags: married but separated!buddie, different first meeting au, miscommunication, eventual happy ending, angst, anal sex, oral sex, angry sex, mutual masturbation, phone sex

- pt 1 of explicit mutual pining fics - mature rating mutual pining fics - general audience rating mutual pining fics

[cnl0400]

(Trying to make sense in the Simeon human >> demon pipeline. Very Headcsnnon heavy post so be warned)

Simeon steals the Ring of light and gets told off by Michael. Michael enters panic mode because that means Simeon messed up with a human life spawn and he would be punished/banished for this

(Reminder that in the conversation with Michael in S2OG, he mentions how If he would have been more like MC, things would have gone different and he wouldn't have lose Lucifer/his brothers. So in a way, trying to stop Simeon from falling/being punished Is his "second chance" on doing everything right)

The punishment for messing with a human life spawn Is basically being forced to wander through darkness for all eternity (both NB & OG mention different punishments for Lilith, my rule Is that the newer version it's whats considered canon unless stated otherwise), and going against the CR in general Is losing your angel status and become a fallen angel. So Simeon punishment was odd since the start

To stop the whole process of Simeon becoming a fallen angel, Michael turns Simeon into a human. In that way, Simeon doesn't have enough magic to go throught the whole metamorphosis. Also explains why he was defenseless for the whole S4OG

S3 happens and Simeon Is "human" the whole time. Probably in the same way that MC Is human (that they can see that he's not a regular human and has a supernatural origin, but still pretty weak by himself)

Raphael regularly checks on him for the whole S3, he was probably keep in the dark about how bad the situation situation Is, judging by his actitude in L48NB

S4 Happens and Raphael gets into the exchange program, to keep Simeon safe and to inform Michael about whatever changes he may be going through. Luke also says that Michael asks him more about Simeon so it's probably that Simeon being human just was a way to gain more time to fix the whole issue

** The whole Nightbringer/Time traveling arc happens (S1 & S2 of NB), not a lot happened here since the time barely moved in the present

They return to the present, Solomon cast a protective spell on Simeon and that's where everyone starts to see that something Is going on with Simeon. My theory Is that now Simeon has enough magic in himself to "transform"

(Also: Simeon apparently still has hidden power within himself, even after becoming "human" but tbh that's makes everything more confusing. Sry Solomon)

** Something that I found interesing Is that 7 Lessons after L41, this lesson was the one they choose to make reference to the past. Solomon references his time with MC in Cocytus hall. Does this mean something? Probably not. But I'm still on the cracktheory that Simeon & Nightbringer are in this together.

[boobi-boy]

HOT TAKE. As a society, we are conditioned to hate final seasons. This is fair. We were all betrayed by Game of Thrones and Supernatural and whatnot. As someone who has never watched these (I have only heard generalised complaints about them), let me (drunkenly) yap about the Umbrella Academy s4.

I'm gonna try and keep this vaguely organised.

Luther

I was an adamant Luther hater back in season one and two, I will admit, meeting his actor at Comic Con in 2021 did colour my opinion a little bit, but I loved him in season three. I mean, his romance with Sloane always felt a little rushed to me, but it was certainly sweet, and their wedding was a nice tie in to the "we only see each other at weddings and funerals" thing.

Pros;

In season four, I loved him. He's optimistic about life and goes to great lengths to brighten the moods of people around him, which is the kind of person he lacked all his life. He's being the person he always needed and I love that for him.

The implication that he's pushing aside his festering feelings of dissatisfaction for his life to be there for other people is so moving, and also I love those moments where him and Allison get to just be normal siblings, showing that he's moved on from that toxic era of his life.

His fight scenes are epic and he's all round a good character this season. I understand people's disdain for being sidelined, along with his grief for Sloane, but there are a certain two factors that should be taken into consideration here. The first being that, by s4e1, its been six years since he lost her. He has probably processed that grief and moved on by now, despite how profound the loss. Obviously he still thinks about her, which is why he occasionally brings her up, but it's been a long time. Additionally, he's semi-sidelined because his character arc was pretty well rounded by the end of s3. He's moved on from Allison and was on a trajectory for a healthier life. Its tragic that he lost Sloane, but good that he continued trying to be happy.

Cons;

I do wish his relationship with Ben had been more developed this season. To me, I think the implication is that he's hanging on to Sparrow Ben as a brother (in-law) because he's the closest remaining connection to the Sparrow Academy, therefore Sloane.

Why is he living in the decrepit Sparrow Academy house? Why? Literally why??? This needed more explanation.

Diego

My mother hates him. I lowkey love him. In season two, his character plus his saviour complex was explored so fucking well. I loved him then. I think his character in season three is a decent testament to how boring 'settling down' can be.

Pros;

He reacts very well to everything that happens. That's the best way I could explain it. The realisation that sometimes life is just normal. Its a sweet plotline and I enjoyed it

I loved his relationship with Luther, his visit to the CIA and the fun approach to his power this season.

His final words to Lila, that he knew she didn't mean to hurt him, were so mature and a brilliant way of rounding off his character with a sense of satisfaction and finality. I loved it so much. In that moment, before everything, he was her husband, and that was beautiful.

Cons;

I have very few. I think his depiction as a mailman is silly. I just wish it had been a different job.

Also I wish he'd spoken more Punjabi because I'm pretty sure (correct me if I'm wrong) he learnt that to converse with Lila and her family in their native language, despite Lila's family speaking English.

Why was he immature enough to fight with Five over his wife when the literal world was ending? Not very consistent with his character development but I still liked that scene. Honestly, that was obviously written in as a segue to Five going back to the subway so I guess it did have to be there it just felt a bit weird.

Allison

Oh dear God. Allison Hargreeves, what happened to you? I loved her so much in seasons one and two. Season three Allison ruined everything ever forever. Not through bad writing. Through very good and despicably devastating writing. She has lost so much and she coped with it so badly that she altered all of time to avoid her grief. The evillest girlboss of all time.

Pros;

CLAIRE! Claire Bear. I love you. Thank you season four for giving us Claire and Claire/Allison bonding time.

Also the fact that she's coping with her being a terrible human being by babysitting Klaus for five years (which she is obviously very spiteful about) is very well written.

I like the return of Allison badassery when she shows up and literally busts a man's balls.

I like how she ends the show being physically vulnerable and now Klaus is taking care of her now. That was cute.

Also I love that she's being held accountable for her actions and it makes her a slightly better person! That was fun.

I like that we learn that without her power she was a B-list actor at best.

Cons;

What the fuck were her powers this season? I know they got janky marigold but why is she literally just telekinetic now????

Why didn't they tell us why Ray walked out? She literally altered time to get him back. Like, I know Allison has fucked up every relationship she's ever had but PLEASE tell us what happened.

Also fuck you for what you did to Klaus.

Klaus.

Oh, Klaus Hargreeves, the man that you were. Season one. TRAGIC. I loved it. Season two, the exact same commentary. Season three, I loved him so much, he keeps being my FAVOURITE and also the idea that the drugs and trauma thwarted the full potential of his powers, but the drugs was the only thing that could keep him sane because of his trauma and his powers was so cool. Well done for beginning to overcome your rampant daddy issues Klaus. Season four. He is still my favourite.

Pros;

Having him sell his body in the weirdest way possible was amazing. I love to see it.

The moment between him and Claire where she knew exactly what was happening and he just repeats 'it's too late' and swears at her. Beautifully devastating.

Him getting buried alive was so fucking fitting I can't properly explain it I just love it.

His final line, and the third-to-final line of dialogue in the whole shows being 'I just wanna say, I love you guys, but you're all assholes' sums up perfectly. And it just had to be him that said that. He can never escape his nihilism and I love him for it. Its who he is.

Learning that the 'real' Klaus is a total germophobe was fun.

Cons;

Give my man more screen time. I beg. I am on my knees begging. Please Mr Blackman. Please Mr Way. Give the love of my life more screen time.

I wish Dave had been mentioned once or twice. Dave is forever a part of Klaus. Why didn't he try to contact him when he got his powers back? Why has he forgotten him? If Luther gets a Sloane mention then Klaus should have gotten a Dave mention. I guess Netflix hates the queers unless they're from Heartstopper (/j)

Five

Five is my mother's favourite and she was vomming this season because of you-know-what. The poor woman. She still loves him though, So did I. Five defines The Umbrella Academy. He spent two seasons wearing the uniform, he got the first f-bomb, he was responsible for SO much exposition. All in all, he is quintessential to the aesthetic, plot, and entire existence of the series. Did season four give him justice?

Pros;

I love Five being a CIA agent. This is so him.

Jerome is a funny name for him.

He doesn't ever stop being himself and I love that.

I like how blunt he is about the fact they all have to end their existence. He understands existentialism and his place in the universe more than his siblings (and most people ever) can fathom. It had to be him to deliver that news and he does it so well.

Cons;

The elephant in the room. Him and Lila. I see it. I see the vision. Yes. If two people spend seven years with only each other for company, suspended in time, they will probably develop a romantic relationship. That doesn't make me like it. It is in character for him to lie to Lila (or withhold information from her)about knowing the way home. I just hated every second of it. I thought they were going to steer clear of Five romantic relationships because of how weird his ageing is. He's mentally more than twenty years older than Lila and physically more than ten years younger than her. It is gross. I hate it. It was a reasonable plot choice Honestly, their relationship remaining strictly platonic would have been less realistic than what happened but when has this show ever been realistic? I will say, it makes sense for Five to revert to old coping mechanisms (I am referring to Delores) in a time like this, it's just that this time he had a real person to enact them with. In times of utter distress, Five is a romanticist, so at least his character is consistent.

Why didn't they let him wear a suit that fits him? That was not nice.

Ben

Sparrow Ben is a sexy cunt. I love how much of a knob he is. All the time. This season was a slay for him. We heart assimilation allegories for love and obsession.

Pros;

I repeat - I love the assimilation metaphor. He didn't get to go with grace. I've seen people criticising that he got no meaningful death scene but that's the point. His meaningful death was stolen from him because of his unhealthy obsession with Jennifer and how deeply in love with her he was. It's a commentary of how toxic and co-dependant relationships will destroy a person. I love it.

I love the scene where him and Jennifer are sat either side of the wall watching the same movie. That was so fucking cute.

Cons;

The CGI for his powers was shit. He looked like the squid version of She-Hulk.

Why have the Umbrellas just adopted him into his family? That was weird.

Victor

I have always loved him. Best trans representation I've ever seen. Autism coded. The amount of times I said 'His powers are just autism sensory overload' or 'his powers are just anger issues' has probably burned the phrase into my mother's mind.

Pros;

I like that he was a manwhore in Canada.

I love him having control over his powers this season. We support self control my man.

I love how adamant he is to save Ben. All this man has ever wanted was to save someone. And he never could. So he sacrificed himself to save the world.

Cons;

I was not here for the fit this season. The boots. The jean jacket. Not a serve. I am sorry.

He was kinda cringe and irrelevant this season I'm not gonna lie.

Lila

Thank you Lila for being what I picture when I hear Golden Brown. It makes me happy.

Pros;

A devoted mother. We love her. I also love that her character involves her children but she's more than that. But she still sacrifices everything for them. "Make sure to read to Gracie every night! And don't let the twins fight!" absolutely destroyed me.

I don't know what it is but her fit ate this season.

Her final words being 'Fuck you!' was fun.

Cons;

Her 'LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME' personality got annoying after about four episodes. Not even in s4, just in general.

I wish her backstory had been more addressed this season. It was just completely ignored. Sad.

The Plot.

Pros;

If this show is anything, it is self aware. It makes fun of itself for just doing the apocalypse four times. I love it.

The tragic ending. Too many shows have happy endings these days. I need my bittersweet tragedy and the Umbrella Academy delivered. It actually made me bawl because these characters meant so fucking much to me.

I always said that Klaus's story couldn't end without him dying. I also felt like Five dying would work. Now I think that if one of them goes, they all have to. They were born at the same time and they died that way too. It explains WHY they keep ending the world. Their very existence is apocalyptic. They are a collective incarnation of the apocalypse and that just rounds off the show in such a meaningful way.

I know people hate the 'one true timeline' thing and the 'they all die' thing and feel like its a copout, but its so beautiful to me. They were the problem the whole time. They can't just find some creative and resourceful way out of it this time. This is the end. That's WHY the SONG in the TRAILER WAS 'THE END' by My Chemical Romance!!!!!!!!!!!

Cons;

The plot holes like why does Luther getting his powers back give him his monkey body back when the life-saving surgery that he didn't need in this timeline didn't happen???

Along with many other plot holes that have already been pointed out within this post and by other people a million times so I won't go through the tedium of doing what has already been done.

Special mentions!

The Gene & Jean dance scene! The show knew they couldn't get away with making the Umbrellas dance again but they needed an obligatory Umbrella Academy dance scene and they ATE IT UP.

The song they danced to was also a banger, which segues nicely into my next mention which is the SOUNDTRACK. It SLAPS. Muse! Bloodhound Gang! Cher! ALL IN ONE SHOW. The Umbrella Academy's soundtrack has always been amazing and season four is not any different.

The closing line "On the eighth of august 2024" etc. DESTROYED ME.

THE USE OF 'I THINK WE'RE ALONE NOW' KILLED ME.

THE POST CREDITS WITH THE MARIGOLD FLOWERS AAAAGHHH.

ALL THE SIDE CHARACTERS UGH.

Also, the production photos from across the years in the credits. I loved them so fucking much.

They kept handling Victor's trans storyline well, not pretending he was never a girl and including him in flashbacks. Idk I liked it.

Diego naming his daughter after his mother is so sweet.

Random criticism though - the casting for the teen versions of the Umbrellas was ATROCIOUS. Klaus somehow looked five years old and in his mid forties at the same time.

[fivewantscoffee]

So, Five x Lila. I need to get this out of my system so I can maybe finally move on:

I don't like the ship.

I don't like the characters together. I find the pairing a baffling one, and I don't like what it does to the show (and characters) either.

First of all, that wasn't Lila. I don't know who it was, but it wasn't the woman we saw off at the end of S3, or even the one we started off S4 with.

It just wasn't her.

You can blame trauma, or six years of being on the move. That's going to change a person, for sure, but this wasn't about giving Lila any character development.

It was about giving Five a love interest.

Because that life? Yeah. I could see it for Five. I could see him deciding to settle down and take life slow, I could see him being sweet and domestic with a partner should he have one. After he's had some time to heal, now that he's finally free of the apocalypse, I could see that for Five.

But Lila? She was unhappy in her marriage, at least partly because the domestic, stay-at-home-mum life has proven to be something that doesn't fulfil her. She wants more out of life, which is why "bookclub" happened, which is why she ended up in the subway with Five in the first place.

And okay. For the sake of argument, let's go with this. Let's say Five x Lila happened so they could cope with their situation. It was survival, like Lila said. If we were going to have to endure this bad, messy plot point anyway, (which we didn't, we really, really didn't), it should at least have been treated with the seriousness it deserves.

Because, Five? The complete, callous lack of remorse on his part? What the fuck was that?

Even if you pick through the crumbs and try to make it make sense, this wasn't a romance. At best it was survival, and coping, and kind of a tragedy all at once. Five shouldn't be picking fights with Diego. He shouldn't be acting like a spurned twenty-something-year-old.

And yeah, characters can be flawed and in the wrong, but why like this? This didn't feel like Five to me. He is brusque and, when looked at it from a certain angle, I can see why some would call him selfish (which I don't necessarily agree with, but that's a different conversation), but under all his layers, he does love his family. To me, that's the core of his character and has been since S1. Everything he's done, he's done to ensure their survival, then when he agreed to give up in S3, he was content to simply die by their sides.

So, you're telling that this Five, the one we've known and followed for three seasons, had a fling with Lila and didn't even feel guilty or conflicted about it? You're telling me loved this woman, yet was willing to keep her from her family, her children?

"Five is selfish" "Five is tired" "Five is finally moving on"

No. Not like that. To me, the Five from previous seasons (S2 specifically, because that's where a lot of it goes wrong) is only "selfish" in that he wants his family to survive and is willing to go to any lengths to achieve that. He's not exactly compassionate about Allison and Viktor having to leave Ray and Sissy behind. And yeah, he leaves Diego in the asylum because he doesn't want him messing with the timeline.

Is he in the wrong for that? Answer this any way you want, but I don't think it matters to Five. Does he want his siblings to be happy? In my opinion, of course he does, but they're not going to be happy if they're dead.

That's not the same as what S4 does. Not by a long shot. Five cares deeply about those he loves, and granted, he is pretty bad at showing it, but he does care.

He nearly worked himself into the grave trying to solve the first two apocalypses, with little regard for his own well-being. When he realised a third apocalypse was happening, he didn't say fuck it and continue his Pennsylvania retirement road trip... he immediately dropped everything to try and fix it.

So how did we get to S4 Five, who got with his brother's wife, found a way home, didn't tell Lila, AND THEN, after he finally gave her the notebook and they went back, he acts like that?

Yeah, no. That's not my Five.

Also, five x lila happening isn't Five moving on. If anything, it's how he copes with the situation they're in. That's just his Delores 2.0.

Anyway, all of this is moot because the fact of the matter is, they chose to make this happen. Five and Lila getting stuck in the subway together for seven years didn't have to happen.

I don't know.

This used to be a show about family. It also used to be a show about the effects of child abuse on this group of siblings. This started to fall to the wayside after S1, but the family aspect of it still remained.

At its core, tua has always been about family, so what was the point of making S4 at all if this is what they were going to give us?

It's not just Five x Lila. They messed this up across the board, with how flippantly the absence of Sloane and Ray was treated, how shallow and surface-level all of the rest was. They gave us some crumbs with Klaus and Allison, but they couldn't even do that without retconning their entire relationship. That's not even mentioning the ending. The Hargreeves all sacrificing themselves in the end could have worked, but this was not the way to do it.

Anyway, this rant is over. S1 Five, you'll always be famous to me.

[emblazons]

So (because I cannot go three seconds without noticing new little things that tell the wider story in this show):

Let’s talk about how the music that plays during the S3 Byler fight is the exact same music that plays during the S4 conversation Mike & Dustin have with Lucas as they walk to class after the pep rally—

—and how that parallel gives us insight not only into how Mike (and his devotion to Will) has evolved between seasons 3 and 4….but also how The Duffers are evolving Mike as a character in the wake of the "conflict" of forced conformity they introduced in S3.

To start: here are snippets of both scenes where “Not Kids Anymore” plays, both in Season 3 and Season 4.

Now, even though Mike is present in both scenes, it’s not entirely obvious why these things would be parallels, given the radical difference in tone. That said: when we look at these scenes in their wider contexts, we see that they are both exploring the exact same issue, only with Mike on opposite sides of the convo each time—

—namely, whether or not its worth it for Mike to embrace conformity, given that there are behaviors/roles he is meant to fill when trying to keep up with being normal/growing up...and "society" says that DnD / nerdiness (and a refusal / lack of desire to participate in performative relationships) stands entirely apart from that.

Let me see if I can explain.

First: these things are parallels because they are asking us to compare the Mikes in each situation—to notice how he took Will’s words to heart, and decided on some level that Will was right, not him. How do we know? Because in the time between these two convos (aka the rain fight and then the first few episodes of S4), we learn that Mike has made a point to address and rectify all criticisms Will had of him & his behavior during the rain fight.

As of the very first episode of S4, we are shown that Mike is 1) paying attention to both the party/DnD the way Will criticized him for not doing (to the point of calling out Lucas for not prioritizing it the way he now wants to)—

—2) he is focusing on keeping closeness with Dustin (even to the point of judging Lucas for not doing the same), because Will accused him of ignoring Dustin as readily as he ignored him—

—and 3) he has entirely stopped "swapping spit" with El (to the point of removing her from a hug at the airport, kissing her on the forehead...and then never kissing her again lmao) while letting his relationship fall apart without much of a fight…right before apologizing to Will for letting El get in the way of their time spent together in the first place.

Basically: even though he is still struggling in many ways to defend himself from being bullied/being an outcast by hiding behind his relationship with El (the same way Lucas is with “being popular” and basketball), we can see that Mike has made clear strides towards embracing the sides of him that aren’t conformist, which is reflected in all of his decision-making in Will's absence.

Though Mike is getting older and the party “aren’t kids anymore,” them paralleling these scenes is showing us that Mike, at least on some level, has realized that growing up is not at odds with embracing the things he enjoys & his various identities, whether that be through playing DnD—

—wearing clothes he chose on his own���

—or willingly choosing closeness with Will over the performance of relationships with girls (the same way Will already had in Season 3, and Dustin reflected as well).

Now...this isn't to say that he's entirely succeeded at the task, given how many times we see him fumble through actually implementing these changes/revelations in himself, whether with clothes (hello 'shitty knockoff'), embracing his actual interests, or even letting himself want to admit he wants to be with/around Will and not El—

—on top of the fact that I've already talked (many, many times) about how the journey of "feeling like you lost" the Duffers took us on had Mike ending up in a position where "conformity" temporarily wins, how that plays into his relationship with El versus Will, and why it matters for his character even outside of his queerness.

Still: I think this parallel in particular is important to understanding his character because it rules out any idea that Mike is somehow oblivious rather than intentionally working through to the changes happening in himself, whether they be in regards to him re-choosing DnD, making decisions about his clothing for himself...or wanting to be closer to Will / not participate in "liking girls," which is what he gets projection-mad at Will about during the rain fight.

tl;dr: Mike has realized on some level that he wants to be more like / closer to Will than his S3 "conformity" self—and the war we see on his face throughout the season in conversations with Will has a lot to do with that, among other things.

This musical parallel in particular draws attention to the fact that there have been changes happening within Mike that he sees and recognizes—he just "lost" like every other character this season, aka failed at walking into a more secure sense of self / out of his "conformist" relationship in its entirety...which we'll resolve in S5. :)

[sweetpastillas]

tom & elliot's role swap video is interesting to me because . what if luther and viktor Did switch some places in s4?

this would likely include [this is an au idea]:

a down-on his-luck luther, shifting through various jobs

in hindsight i just want more depth back for him

in this au, sloane is fully dead via reginald incompletely programming the universe & allison pressing the button early. let's visualize all the flashback montages we should have gotten over their 6 years, and insert in one where he finds her grave.

(this would cut to ben finding this out in a phone call, scowling with a hint of mourning, before turning away to greet more of his crypto buddies)

it says something like "sacrificed her life saving people from the fire of the hotel obsidian [or something heroic]."

he has no picture of her

it's not a timeline where he's fucked up, like the unshaven floorcrying on the moon or s1's furry rave breakdown. he's numb. happy to go to family events, not as stoic as s1, but numb every once in a while

he still picks up ben from prison. hugs him too tight – ben complains once.

he actually squeezes more often in his hugs. death is too real. klaus gets it but still panics for closeness and germs as they meet at the party

viktor, on the other hand, is as neutral as he's always been. happy without his powers, able to take deep breaths dealing with annoying regulars at the bar without rattling all the bottles on his shelves

he's happy to be part of the family – it's not like he has sissy or harlan left. so he answers his calls, sends the niblings pictures of canada wildlife, and is happy to go to every meetup. he's missed only a couple, because distance.

viktor's still the one most pissed about his powers coming back, at least. "i could put us at risk and the end the world again."

it's luther who's even more visibly awkward when allison shows up to grace's 6th. everyone can assume it's because of oblivion, but we the audience can guess it could be about the rumor SA and their complex history

we can take it to the town with keepers and evil santa – viktor and allison could have a different scene, one that acknowledges where they are now

("we've killed each other's children, we've hurt each other, but you asked me to trust you and i did." "i guess i can't ask you to be in my corner then." "show me a good reason to; i know you can" *cue proper alli redemption arc*)

but alli/luther... there's more hurt there because really the show broke their closeness and put a transparent bandaid to pretend it's still there despite s3. they used to be besties with a childhood that turned them into exes and circumstances have changed that into worse

so it's luther who tells her that "we can't be anything else, right now.. i don't think we can even be friends. i'm sorry"

allison and that brilliant thing where emmy raver lampman acts out trying not to cry

take your pick of reasoning – the SA, or he blames her in part along with reg for not programming sloane into the timeline. either because she went with it, or because she pressed the button early

in my au we settle loose ends btw. they talk it out or help each other in battle, as long as they make truce at the end.

we keep the exact scene as from the roleswap video. we also keep the deleted conversation with diego later on.

if we have to actually integrate the cia in any way (bc in this world, five works at an actual deli and spies on the keepers at night) one of them finds various files on them, and sloane too. takes the picture of her to keep it.

i say one of them because a viktor-diego arc would be cool and luther travelling with reg, actually calling the shots better would be interesting.

viktor's the one who both gets an insight into diego's vigilante fighter style, and is also there to let him figure out that change is ok. "the civilian life isnt so bad, here's an anecdote from something i actually liked about being ordinary back in the original s1 timeline."

(have i also said this au is just lila and diego missing the action in their lives but without cheating. they both work 9-5s and are tiredly trying to keep up and this is settled later)

no matter what the picture ends up in luther's hands by the end

it's what luther clutches amidst a proper final battle and ending, hoping to find sloane in the next life

[thestrangestthing89]

I am now convinced there are several scenes we didn't see all of and will possibly get flashbacks for. There are so many moments that feel like they are deliberately keeping things from the audience especially when it comes to Mike and the lack of his POV from the past two seasons. There is a lot of potential for flashback scenes between the seasons too, as well as at the end of the seasons when they do short time jumps.

S1: - We know there is a scene with Mike biking home after Will's body is pulled out of the quarry. - I am also curious what happened after Mike went to his mother and what that conversation was like. - We also know that El found her way into the basement after Mike left her and they seem to be mid conversation. Mike is flipping through Will's artwork and telling her "what she did sucks" and El is trying to find Will on the radio. We don't see what happens after she finds him until Lucas and Dustin arrive and Mike already decided what to do. How much did they talk about Will when El was at Mike's house? Because there is another moment earlier than this when Mike first finds out she knows him and it's clear they discuss it before Lucas and Dustin arrive. S2: - There is a moment in the Byers house where the phone rings and Joyce looks freaked out but no one answers it. They never say who's calling but she's clearly worried. Bob, Joyce, Will, and Jonathan are having a movie night. - The "crazy together" conversation seems to go on longer than what we see. It's unclear how much time passes between when they have this conversation and when Jonathan takes Nancy home. He's supposed to give Will a ride home so Will was waiting there for him. - Mike, Joyce, Hopper, and Bob are in the lab with Will for a couple days. There is a lot that happened here. - Mike's meltdown with Hopper definitely gets cut short. More was said between these two once Mike calmed down. And Mike spends the next scene standing next to Hopper away from El. Not to mention Hopper interrupting El trying to kiss him. Pretty sure he sees how uncomfortable Mike is here and is helping him and it's related to his meltdown. - The Snow Ball also has potential for extra moments. What happened after what we saw?

S3:

Hopper and Mike's conversation in the car in S3. We know they were talking about El but based on Mike's behavior after there seems to be more to it than that.

I want to know what happened after Lucas and Mike found Will in the rain post-fight. It's nighttime and they are all soaked. But the next scene we get is at the Wheelers house and all three of them are in different outfits and it's morning.

What exactly happened at the end of the season between the mall and the Byers moving? I know there are theories here based on a book but this seems to be deliberately unconfirmed and ambiguous.

Along that line of thought - Mike and Will clearly came to some kind of understanding about D&D. Will tries to get rid of his game and Mike tells him not to. Not to mention Will painted them all as their D&D characters so he must know about Hellfire. Because if he thought Mike still thought it was childish he wouldn't have done this. So they talked about this part of their fight. I wonder if they also talked about Castle Byers.

S4

Mike and El's fight in Lenora. I wrote about this here.

There is also potential for flashbacks of the few calls Mike and Will did have. We know they talked a little.

The Cali gang is missing from the entirety of episode 7. It's possible this could just be because they were only driving and it wasn't a very interesting road trip. But they fact that there isn't even a quick scene of them talking about where they are going or something sticks out.

The two day jump at the end has a lot of unanswered questions: What happened with Mike and El after Mike's monologue because they aren't speaking and are rolling their eyes at each other? El and Will also seem to not be speaking. They must have come into contact with Joyce and Hopper beforehand because they aren't surprised about Hopper being alive and they use the cabin as their meeting place. All of the parents were worried about the kids in episode 7 and suddenly we don't see them anymore (except Karen at one point). How did everyone get out of the UD and how did people respond to Eddie - especially Mike.

[quitealotofsodapop]

In most of the aus, there's no need to say that Wukong and Macaque need a very long, long heart to heart conversation a out everything that happened between them and the question of just WHAT they are to each other now, but I feel that goes doubly so in the Slow Boiled Au. Because where it's easy to see, Wukong was mostly in the wrong (although Macaque certainly wasn't entirely innocent) in both Canon LMK and in most of the other aus... in Slow Boiled Au it isn't quite like that. They BOTH hurt each other greatly, Macaque for abandoning Wukong when he had needed him most and attacking him, and Wukong for lashing out while he was under the mountain and killing Macaque during the Journey. They both genuinely hurt each other the most out of anyone else, but at the same time, had it not happened that way, then Yubei wouldn't exist. They wouldn't have what they have NOW if they hadn't had the pain of the past. And that's something they need to talk about, especially if Macaque wants to step up as a parent and be there for Wukong's daughter... and to make it up to Wukong for hurting him and abandoning him to his extremely risky pregnancy alone.

In Slow Boiled Au, it's different because the cards are more stacked in Wukong's favor, because after everything that had happened, Wukong has every right to demand Macaque leave his life and never interact with their cub. Because Yubei isn't really Macaque's despite her appearance and them claiming she is, there is no DNA connection. She is Wukong's and Wukong's alone.

But Wukong also cannot deny the pain and suffering he put his mate through as well as how Macaque's actions had led to Yubei's creation.

I can just imagine Wukong and Macaque laying in their bed one night, tired after the day, and Macaque finally getting the courage to ask Wukong that question

"What are we?"

And Wukong... probably won't have an answer. They never absolved their courtship as mates, but it's so much more complicated now with the pain they put each other through and the cub. And now Macaque is pregnant as well, complicating things even more.

Yuuuup

These two have a whole new chapter of their lives to write, and it kinda scares them?

Wukong and Mac post-S3 are cautiously introducing eachother back into their lives. Its a very slow, careful process. Wukong doesn't want to lose contact with Mac forever, abd he wants Mac to be in his cub's life and vice-versa... but Wukong also harbors some resentment for how Macaque was quick to judge not only his pilgrim brothers but also his new found family. He wants Mac to actually *talk* to him about why he was upset by these people and have Mac give them true apologys before they can move forward.

Macaque on the flip-side, is going through the same crisis of parenthood Wukong had many centuries ago, and is struggling with some deep self-hatred over his rash behavior + genuine doubt if Wukong still feels love for him in his heart. He wants to be there for little Yuebei, and be a good mate to Wukong, but he isn't sure *where* to begin.

Macaque and Wukong share a nest. They care for the baby together. They tend to the island and the smaller monkeys. They go into the city to meet friends. They help MK hone his skills. They're happy to do almost everything together... but they need to sit down and talk before they become comfortable calling eachother "mates" again.

Then S4 happens, forcing both monkey parents to navigate eachothers past memories in order to reunite and save their kid(s).

Thanks for the free couples theraphy Azure! >:)

[foxgonyoom]

I don't think MK is worried about being a demon monkey thing.

I think he's worried about becoming LBD.

(My theory below, with pictures and colored text, so you don't get bored of course!)

Now I thought this idea up a while back, when I first watched the Jade Emperor episode (which was probably in Chinese when I originally watched it). And what made me think of it was this scene:

(I think I saw someone somewhere say that there weren't any MK reflections in S4, which is a lie because there's one right here. However it's possible that this is the ONLY MK reflection in S4, which actually ties into my theory because his face is reflected over a skull (and guess who's associated with those in this show?))

Now after a while I forgot about it for the most part, but recently I recalled it, and after looking through some of S4 a bit, I've realized that it's actually probably canon.

Now why don't I start by addressing the conversation MK had LBD when she was defeated, the one they had in the white void.

LBD: "Save your hero speech, child. I've existed long enough to know when it's over." MK: "You still think that the universe really wants anything from... any of us?" LBD: "Don't you?" MK: "I try not to think too hard." LBD: "So it would seem." LBD: "Know this, monkey. You and I are not so different. We both fight for what we think is right. That pursuit only leads to one thing." MK: "Mhm, to destiny, right?" LBD: "No. To pain."

Now, while I've noticed several callbacks throughout S4 to not only S3 but maybe even previous seasons (IT'S ALL CONNECTED) I'm mainly going to focus on the fight in Pitiful Creatures and take a look at MK and Subodhi's discussion they had in Show Me the Monster. I've got a lot of thoughts but to spare myself I'm just going to focus on things that relates to my theory.

See if you can follow along.

Master Subodhi: This is not about the Monkey King. There is something more at play here. Something about you." MK: "Wha-? Me? I'm just a regular noodle delivery boy." Master Subodhi: "Ha! Do you even believe that?"

Master Subodhi: "Although this was the stone from which Sun Wukong once sprung, it appears, over time, it was used to form another. A simple creature with no past, no family, and no name. There is a reason you are at the center of these stories. A reason you can harness the power of the Monkey King himself!"

Master Subodhi: "Who or what you are, even I do not know the answer. But of one thing I am certain. Fate has plans for you. Great plans or foul? Time will tell."

MK: "You still think that the universe really wants anything from... any of us?" LBD: "Don't you?"

(Not gonna lie, considering the perception MK's been given on fate (which is a generally pretty cruel and heartless one, considering how it was mainly in tandem with LBD) Master Subodhi telling him fate had plans for him was probably like a giant slap to the face. Like it probably seemed to him like Subodhi was basically saying "lol you're gonna eat shit kid, hope you like being the imposter among us and causing pain and suffering". Especially considering how the one who was always claiming that fate had plans for them was LBD. To MK, Master Subodhi was basically saying that he'd end up like LBD. He was confirming LBD's last words. Hence the "Shifu Subodhi said it himself" line later, even though Subodhi didn't say shit about MK bringing pain and destruction on the world, just fate having plans for him and him being more special than previously thought)

MK: "You're not real. You're just the curse of the scroll trying to get all up inside of my head, just like-" Protective curse: "The Lady Bone Demon? Tell me, what do you think we are? Honestly. 'Cause I have been dying to hear us say it. Out loud."

(Fun fact, when the curse (which is currently formed as MK) says "The Lady Bone Demon?" You can hear LBD's voice in the background saying the exact same thing)

Protective curse: "Seriously? You still think we're just some... 'noodle delivery guy'? You can't remember where we came from, and we got all this power, and you never once thought, why us? What are we?! What is our purpose?!" MK: "Of course I thought about it! I mean, maybe! I was gonna thought about it. I just... I just wanna be me. To be MK!"

MK: "I try not to think too hard."

Protective curse: "We're just like Wukong. A fraud, a trickster, destructive. Why would our legacy be any different? Actually, no, no. The chaos and destruction that we'll bring upon the world will make Wukong's past look like nothing. Shifu Subodhi said it himself, right?" MK: "No. No, you're wrong. I'm-I'm... I'm not—" Protective curse: "Not what? Some monkey demon thing destined to bring chaos upon the world? Come on! Use your words, big brain boy. Say it! What are we?"

(If MK is worried he might be like LBD, then it's possible that his perception of LBD is leaking into his perception of the person he's also been compared with, Monkey King)

(Also, keep in mind LBD posed as a little girl, tricked MK, and tried to destroy the world)

Protective curse: "Yeah, boi! Oh, that's what I'm talking about! You can't escape it. This thing, whatever you are, embrace it. Embrace your destiny!"

(I would once again like to refer to Spider Queen's line of "there's no running from what she is!")

And here's a little treat for ya, several times throughout the show characters have consistently referred to LBD as a "what". Saying stuff like, "There's no running from what she is" and whatnot. Now I want you to go back through the evidence I've presented (heck, maybe even go back through S4), and look for anytime that anyone/anything refers to "what MK is". Go on. I'll be here when you get back, pinky promise. :)

(Fun fact, when MK was telling DBK what LBD was, he said she was an "ancient demon". Now in S4, MK is wondering if he's a demon monkey)

Now, there are many more references I could make here. But, to spare my sanity, and to keep you from getting bored from seeing the same shit over and over again, I'll move on now, and instead invite you to look for connections like this in the show on your own time.

For my final point before I end this post, I would like to say something. I don't think the concept of LBD and MK having things in common started with the white void scene. I think, it started here:

MK: "It's ok. I get it. It's scary being alone."

LBD wasn't the one to make the connection first. MK was. That they were alike in some way. Here, in Minor Scale Major Lift. A season 2 episode. And the one where he first met her.

And, funnily enough, it's possible that there could be more references in Minor Scale Major Lift. For example:

LBD: "You were right, you know. It's scary being alone! I do pity you."

Meanwhile the episode I referenced the most in this post is called Pitiful Creatures. Plus, in that episode, MK tells the scroll to "get out of his head", and in Minor Scale Major Lift, the Lady Bone Demon "got into his head" so to speak.

Ya know, I think it's funny. We all heard LBD compare herself with MK, telling him that they were alike. Yet, we never seemed to consider that maybe MK actually believed her.

[bittrlys]

Hi, I have a question that I hoped you or your followers could answer. I stopped watching tdp after S3 but now S6 here and I've heard many say that it's the best season we had since S2. I'm watching S4 now so it's been some time since I touched anything tdp. Now here is my question, which might be silly I apologize, why do the Moonshadow elves need assassins? As much as I remember there isn't any conflicts between the elves and the assassins were sent after Harrow and Ezran after the dragon King's death. So either the elves do have conflicts and it was cut out? Or the elves kill humans a lot, like they kill any human that they consider a threat to Xadia(or for revenge). As far as I remember they trained assassins so it's a reall job for them and you can't be an assassin if you just kill 2 humans a be done. Do we have any evidence of elves having conflicts with each other or sending assassins after other humans?

This is something I've wanted to write on but never did, so your ask made me smile when I saw it!

A very short answer to your question: No explicit evidence, but we can draw assumptions that the assassins were used -- however, I believe the assassins exist for cultural reasons as well.

A much longer answer to your question: A lot of series love the idea of assassins because they're cool and sexy, but don't like so much actually making their characters stone cold killers, so they end up being assassins who don't assassinate. TDP falls more into the latter camp, but there are some things that give you pause.

In the very first episode we have this exchange between Harrow and Viren:

VIREN: Assassins. HARROW, more resigned than surprised: I see. VIREN: A scout on patrol discovered them just before dawn. HARROW: Well, don't look so grim. We've fought off plenty of assassins. Haven't we, Pip? VIREN: It's different this time. We believe they're Moonshadow elves. HARROW, visibly more perturbed: Moonshadow elves? Then how did the scout escape?

They go on to express concern that tonight is a full moon, which means the Moonshadow elves will be at "the height of their power."

This conversation raises immediate questions. If they are used to fending off assassins, but Moonshadow elves are different, who the hell has been sending assassins after them? The human kingdoms aren't in active conflict with each other. Non-Moonshadow elves? Dissidents in the kingdom, like Queen Aanya has? All this despite Viren (admittedly not the most truthful person) stating it was a peaceful time in Katolis? Who knows! However, we can say that Moonshadow elves have a clear reputation as they're aware of how they operate and treat them as highly lethal. Later, when Viren tells his children they have "unwanted visitors" from Xadia, they jump straight to "assassins" instead of "invading army and/or dragon" which would be a logical assumption with Xadia and the human kingdoms being established as on the brink of open war.

Is this just human bias? The Moonshadow assassins take their job very seriously. We see throughout the show they have a number of rituals with very real consequences to ensure their devotion to their death cult. "We take (life) but we do not take it lightly." Runaan doesn't hesitate to send his most untried member off to kill a human. (He is, however, unable to tell berry juice from blood so maybe he's just LARPing as an assassin too.) Honestly, Rayla's presence almost feels like going after humans is a beginner mission, even if the human in question is guarded by a castle full of people. Still, if they aren't going after humans all the time, who would they be targeting?

In the trivia section for Elves on the TDP fan wiki it states "For the most part, there is unity among the elves. However, not all of the elven races get along, and conflict is not unheard of." Sadly, the citation is to some kind of creator interview that has been taken down and I can't find, so we can't rely on that -- if anybody knows the video in question, I'd be curious to hear the exact phrasing. Turning to available canon and ancillary canon material, in the short story 'The Queen's Mercy' we get this exchange:

“You are not afraid of me—but what of the dragons?” asked Kim’dael. “You would dare invoke their wrath?” “The dragons know better than to invoke mine,” Aditi said.

This implies Sunfire elves see themselves as a powerful independent force who resent the implication that they should answer to dragons. We also know that there are certain elves in an insular community that keep drakes as pets and mistreat them, something that doesn't seem to line up with the way other elven societies treat magical animals. I can believe there is some tension between Xadian sub-groups, but for the most part they do seem united as allies, if only because they have the 'common threat' of humanity to often bring them together. Maybe when there are less humans about, they are less united.

The Kim'dael above is a member of the Order of the Blood Moon -- Moonshadow elves who went vampiric and were exterminated by dragons. I don't believe it's outright stated Moonshadow assassins helped with this anti-vampirism campaign, but I assume so. In the Rayla backstory comic she decides to become an assassin after a run-in with this Bloodmoon elf. She wants to be like Runaan and protect others, and this includes protecting them from other elves. It seems very likely that Moonshadow assassins operate against internal threats to Xadian society like this. However, you may presume from this very noble description of being an assassin that within Moonshadow culture, 'assassin' seems equivalent to 'warrior.'

Personally, I think the Moonshadow assassins are partly an active combat force, and partly a ritualistic bit of tradition. Essentially, they play an almost ceremonial, spiritual role in the society. Moonshadow culture and magic is very centred around illusions and the line between life and death, and the assassins are perfect distillations of all of these elements. Even if they were never killing anyone, I could see them still existing and being seen as highly valued members of the society. Symbolic assassins, you know?

That being said, I do think they kill people -- (Runaan definitely seems to have done so as it's said he truly understands the value of a life and the taking of one) -- and though I think they probably primarily operate as an internal security force, based on human reactions to the mere whiff of them it's very possible they have infiltrated human kingdoms before. After all, we know they have a sneaky way in and out of the human kingdoms via the Moonstone Path. When the world was divided their Nexus was left in human territory so they have non-assassinating non-spying reasons to be visiting the human kingdoms, but paired with everything else it is interesting that they want such easy access to the human kingdoms. I'm not saying they were doing a lot of assassinations there -- it seems the degree of interaction between these two halves of the continent have intensified only recently -- but it's all very suggestive.

Ultimately, I think they probably don't kill a lot in general, but it would be really funny if the show would just go there. Like have Runaan look the camera dead in the eye and say "I have taken sixty-two lives and I don't regret a single one." Hashtag let assassins be assassins!

Thank you very much for the question, this is a subject I've thought at length about so I'm happy to finally discuss it. ♥ I hope my answer was helpful despite the lack of explicit evidence in any one direction.

[faramirsonofgondor]

Y’all now that I really think about it I’m pretty sure that Mike in S3 was actually trying to mirror Nancy’s behavior from S1. They both obviously don’t look at their parent’s relationship as the model for their romantic pursuits despite exhibiting some of the same qualities. So, Mike’s ideas about how to behave in a relationship probably come from Nancy’s relationship with Steve, especially considering all his friends’ parents (besides Lucas) aren’t really able to demonstrate what a romantic relationship should or would look like. If you look at the way they both act, it’s clear that to some extent Mike is copying her.

In episode 1 of S1 Dustin says that there’s something wrong with Nancy’s and that she has “a stick up her butt” to which Lucas responds that it’s because she’s dating Steve who he calls a “douchebag”.

In episode 1 of S3 when El and Mike leave because of “curfew” Dustin immediately questions it and Lucas replies that they’re lying, with Will adding that it was like this all summer. Dustin claims that “it’s bullshit” and Lucas nods along.

Steve sneaks into Nancy’s room to “study” and have some alone time.

Mike and El shut the door to her room/secretly make out behind Hopper’s back.

In Season 1, Barb expressed her fears that Nancy is going to leave her to fit in with the popular crowd and that she’s not acting the way she normally does. Nancy eventually does end up separating herself from Barb to be with Steve.

In Season 3, Will and the others feel like both El and Mike are abandoning them somewhat, and express their annoyance about. A heavy theme amongst the teens seems to be “acting like society expects boyfriends/girlfriends/teenagers to do” and Mike and El going off on their own (pre-break up)

Nancy and Steve eventually break up because Nancy’s secrecy about the demogorgon leads him into believing that she’s cheating on him/not being faithful and they end up fighting about it in public, with Steve trying to apologize amidst the chaos and eventually fighting the demogorgon to help save Nancy & Jonathan.

El and Mike break up because of Mike’s lying/secrecy about his grandmother/his conversation with Hopper which leads El to feel like Mike doesn’t trust her or treat her right. They eventually fight about it in public and break up, and end up trying to reconcile amongst the chaos, with Mike stepping in to try and save El & Max from Billy on different occasions.

In S1, Jonathan and Nancy get into an argument because Jonathan thinks Nancy acts like someone else to which Nancy immediately gets defensive about and says that he’s only upset because he’s doesn’t like Steve/her relationship with Steve. As their argument comes to an end, Jonathan divulges that he thought Nancy was different than everyone else and that he’s disappointed by the fact that she’s trying to conform to society’s standards.

In S3, Will and Mike argue because Will feels like Mike is changing and not acting like how he had before because of his relationship with El, to which Mike gets defensive about and says that it’s not his fault that Will doesn’t like girls (equating Will’s frustration and hurt towards Mikes behavior to simply being jealous? about Mike and El’s relationship). As their argument ends, Will reveals that he had expected Mike to continue playing D&D with him and keep acting like a kid (things that don’t conform to what Mike thinks society expects of him).

Nancy states that she waited a month for Jonathan to make a move before getting back together with Steve.

El makes a move on Mike two months after they break up, which is presumably when they get back together.

I think Mike saw the way Nancy was acting in S1 (when his friends thought she was mean/uptight) and thought that’s how people act in relationships.

There are also a lot of parallels between S2 Stancy and S4 Mileven.

[luckykittysshowerthoughts]

Ok so so, this one depends on how far you might be in Nightbringer, but how likely do you think Michael is close to appearing in the NB game?

This might be wishful thinking, but I think he's pretty close.

I've noticed he's been coming up more and more, gradually becoming more of a significant character over the course of the series. Whereas in the early seasons of the OG, he was really only mentioned every once in a while and usually by Luke, he's gradually been making himself known. At the end of S2 he had his first distant conversation with MC, throughout S3 he started being mentioned more and had another conversation with MC, in S4 he had his first real influence on the overarching plot, and in Nightbringer we actually get to directly talk to him in person (albeit in disguise). He's gradually become more and more incorporated into the story over the seasons, and with him actually showing up in the flesh (even if not his own) last season was a HUGE step in this upward trend.

There was also the end of that last season, where it's heavily implied by Raphael and himself that he's planning on joining the exchange program at some point in the future.

None of this is really new, but I do have one thing to add to the discussion, and it's some more subtle foreshadowing from outside the main story. It's a Nightbringer phone call from Levi, talking about some random in-universe anime character. By now, we know that a lot of the in-universe media has parallels to the actual Obey Me story, and this one stuck out to me.

Hm... an angel who keeps randomly popping up. That sounds a little too familiar to be a coincidence. They even go as far as to put the dialogue, "I can't help but think he's going to play an important role in the story later."

This feels like pretty on-the-nose foreshadowing.

I think Michael's definitely coming soon, and will play a major role. My only question is which timeline.

I believe we've interacted with both timelines' Michaels in Nightbringer. NB timeline Michael was the one messing around in disguise as Raphael, but I believe it was OG timeline Michael who brought MC out of their coma. His mood seemed completely different in that coma conversation- he seemed stressed and frustrated, an understandable reaction to having someone incredibly important to your timeline tugged away. The Michael we saw later in the season seemed more or less indifferent to MC, more focused on the brothers than anything else- an understandable reaction for someone who had literally just lost them.

It's NB timeline's Michael who seems the most interested in showing himself. However, MC seems pretty damn close to remaking all their pacts and returning to their own timeline. So I have to wonder: which Michael are we going to meet? What's coming, and how exactly does he tie into it?

[aemiron-main]

1:20: an analysis of back to the future and lost and temporal displacement and ST

“The temporal displacement occurred at exactly 1:20”

First of all- what is temporal displacement? Well, in Back to the Future, it’s “breaking the time barrier”/time travel. It’s also the name for what happens when certain elements (or people) from one time period were continuously misplaced into different time periods. If not corrected, a temporal displacement could have huge effects on the timeline.

Second of all, that initial line is from Back to the Future, but I actually want to talk about “Lost,” for right now. Let’s take a look at temporal displacement in Lost and its causes and why that’s relevant for ST.

Temporal Displacement in Lost and its Causes

What is Temporal Displacement in Lost?

As the screenshots says, temporal displacement is what happens when somebody’s consciousness time travels.

Nosebleeds are a symptom of temporal displacement in Lost- they’re also a.) what happens when somebody uses their powers in ST and b.) they’re a symptoms of being targeted by Vecna, who is extremely associated with time and clocks.

I’m also staring at the following screenshot and the fact that experiencing electromagnetic power from an island (much like the powerful electromagnetic fields in Hawkins caused by the gates), results in time travel.

And the idea of a “constant,” is really interesting to me regarding ST, because it’s somebody who the time traveler deeply cares about and could recognize, and if a constant isn’t found, that time traveler will die. This reminds me a lot of Vecna’s victims and the fact that Max’s fond memories of Lucas and her friends were almost like a “constant,” for her, but I’m also staring at Byler and Will yelling for Mike on Halloween and the original eightfifteengate post that talks about how something is wrong with time during that Halloween scene.

I wonder if Mike is Will’s equivalent of a constant, and that also makes me stare at Creelarke, and what I’m going to talk about later with how Scott seems to be in the wrong timeline. It’s worth keeping in mind that time travel in ST is going to be slightly different from Lost because ST seems to be more pushing towards “travelling between two separate timelines,” rather than “forwards and backwards in the same timeline,” but there also seems to some overlap there. And so, in theory, the “constant,” in ST would have to be somebody who exists in both timelines. Which is interesting considering the fact that Lucas is reading The Talisman at the end of S4, which involves the idea of “twinners,”/different timeline versions of the same person.

I’m also staring at the references to Planck’s constant in s3, and the fact that Suzie (a person) is required to learn the constant/associated with the constant.

And I'm also staring at that as @heroesbyler pointed out to me, Murray got Planck's constant wrong.

And I'm also staring at Dustin and Suzie talking about "changing frequencies," during their conversation about Planck's constant. It's giving me some time travel/alternate timeline vibes, especially considering how often radios are tied to things like the Creel murders and also the walkie-talkie radios that the Party uses, which El uses to communicate with Will and the tie between El's powers vs electromagnetics vs the radios.

I'm also staring at Eloise the lab rat from Lost who died due to temporal displacement, versus the exploding rats from S3, and also at 001 talking about how El is like a lab rat to Brenner.

What Causes Temporal Displacement in Lost?

And now that we’ve got a better idea of the definition of temporal displacement in Lost, let’s look at the three known causes of temporal displacement in Lost.

1.) Intense or prolonged exposure to radiation or electromagnetism

Not only have the people of Hawkins been exposed to high levels of electromagnetism since S1 as a result of the mothergate and the Russians’ gate/machinery to open the gate in s3, but also, staring at @henrysglock and radiationgate.

And speaking of “Faraday,” that name immediately made me think of Faraday cages, which are used to block out electromagnetic fields. And I stumbled upon this Reddit post that talks about how El’s isolation room in the lab seems to be very similar to a Faraday cage.

And there’s so much cage imagery in ST. Take a look at the caged rat with Jonathan in S3, a shot that, hilariously enough, happens right after Joyce is going to talk to Scott about electromagnetic fields, with a book about electromagnetics in her arms.

2.) Proximity to the island in Lost

Staring at this in regards to Hawkins being special in S3 in terms of opening a gate, and location being the “second key/second piece,” when it comes to opening a gate, almost like time is already disturbed in Hawkins.

3.) Time travel.

This one is pretty self-explanatory, but also, the fact that headaches AND nosebleeds are both symptoms of temporal displacement in Lost AND symptoms of being targeted by Vecna in ST, is interesting.

Why Temporal Displacement in Lost is Relevant to St

I’ve been talking a lot lately about various timelines, specifically the Edward timeline vs the Henry timeline (and I’m still working on the big timeline analysis), and a temporal displacement would explain how some characters seem to have ended up in the wrong timeline. It would explain all of the weirdness like how there's a newspaper in S1 that conflates Joyce and Terry and claims that Will was found by Joyce, being experimented on in the lab, whereas the S2 newspaper claims that Will was found in a cabin by Hopper. The S1 article is particularly interesting because one of the conditions for being allowed to rescue Will from the lab is that Joyce had to act like the lab had nothing to do with Will's vanishing- which makes it very odd that she would supposedly give a newspaper interview specifically implicating the lab but also not mentioning the UD at all. Both newspapers are also presented as being the same article with the same title, picture, and author, which makes all of this even weirder. It's worth noting that in Back to the Future, newspapers are a key thing used to differentiate between timelines.

Also, I’ve suspected for awhile that Scott Clarke is in the wrong timeline- for example, this post about him being on the ‘other side of the wormhole’ relative to Henry/in a different timeline (and here’s another post about the Creelarke tunnel scene parallels), and also the fact that he’s seen with Connie Frazier, who seems to be “Mother Alice,” from the Edward timeline (posts here and here), meaning that Scott is in the Edward timeline.

Temporal displacement would also tie into what I said in this post about Karen Wheeler being the Virginia Creel from Edward’s timeline (in Edward’s timeline, his sister is named Virginia and his mother is named Alice, hence what I said earlier about “Mother Alice.”)

It's also worth noting that David Harbour compared ST4 to Lost.

Everything I’ve said here about Lost and temporal displacement would explain how Scott (and other people in Hawkins/other ST characters) ended up temporally displaced. Especially when we look at this next section.

Temporal Displacement and Star Trek

So! What is temporal displacement in Star Trek and how does it work?

Something (including people) from a certain time period being misplaced into another time period… sounds a lot like what I was talking about with Scott and Karen and other people in Hawkins being in the wrong timeline. Interestingly enough, Star Trek also has a Department of Temporal Investigations, a government agency intended to ensure that any time travel was done in a way that it didn't contaminate the timeline. I'm staring directly at Hawkins Lab and Henry and all of the time imagery and all of the times that HNL has messed with things like Will's vanishing and the Creel murders and the fact that in Edward's timeline, the Creel murders happened on the same day as Will's birthday, just in different years.

Conclusion

Long story short- timeline weirdness is afoot, and I’m pretty sure that we’ve been seeing two timelines all along, right since S1. However, before this post ends, there’s a few things I want to talk about regarding that S3 movie theatre scene with the temporal displacement reference.

This bit of dialogue happens right after the temporal displacement line:

“A week later.”

Anything familiar about that to you? What about now?

And going back to Dustin’s dialogue- a setup. Almost like Henry being setup for the murders…. Like what I've been talking about with how I'm certain that Hawkins Lab was messing with the Creels before the murders even happened, and like the fact that the Weekly Watcher has photos of supposed bloodshed at the Creel house, and yet, none of that blood is present when the Hawkins gang actually goes into the house, nor is it present in Victor or Henry's retellings of the murders.

And there’s also the fact that Will went missing for a week, and Max specifically talks about the idea of Will being presumed dead after a week:

There's something here, I can feel it in my bones.

[byersfanclub]

Why I believe mike is aware of his feelings for will by the end of s3 and into s4 and discussions of internalized homophobia and repression.

Before I really start off this post, remember I am a blog who believes in the gay mike wheeler theory! So, if you believe another theory then of course you’re allowed to disagree with this, and you’re allowed to disagree with this post in general as well, these are all my opinions and observations and I'm entitled to them even if you don’t like them. thank you.

The ending of s3 is so important to me and many other bylers of course and by this time mike and el have been broken up for awhile, it doesn’t seem to have really affected anything between the party. We’re shown mike and will having their iconic “not possible” conversation in the same exact spot where will is shown in the very beginning in the seasons to say “im not gonna fall in love” as well as the phone foreshadowing so much of what’s to come in s4. This scene has so but romantic subtext to it, the way mike smiles, the way mike seems upset at first as will getting rid of his dungeons and dragons stuff as if he wasn’t making fun of will just months earlier for still wanting to play. It all ties back to mike’s internalized homophobia and repression throughout s3. To opening the season with mike and el making out (icky but important) the way he’s biking to the mall and talking to el over the walkie in a way that seems like he doesn’t even want to be talking to her AT ALL and him literally meeting up with lucas, max, and will which literally gives us double date imagery since mike and will are with an actual couple (and don’t forget “sorry for wanting to spend romantic time with my girlfriend”, “I'm spending romantic time with my girlfriend” insinuating going to movies is romantic) and are also in completely different sections of the movie theater seats. 

Now, the season 3 fight between mike and will is one of the most important and iconic byler scenes. My belief is that this scene was a mixture mike’s own projection of his internalized homophobia and him not wanting to grow up and get a girlfriend because he wants exactly what will wants. To sit in his basement and plays games together the rest of their lives. To use the exact words of “it’s not my fault you don’t like girls” is so fucking insane of the writers to choose for mike. there’s plenty of options they could have chosen. “it’s not my fault you can’t grow up” could have easily been used instead. 

“you’re ruining everything and for what? so you can swap spit with some stupid girl?”

“el’s not stupid! it’s not my fault you don’t like girls!”

mike. you are so fucking insane for this. at what point does this insinuate will doesn’t like girls? in fact, at what point at all does anything insinuate to anyone thinking will doesn’t like girls? whether it be because he’s “not growing up” or not? in fact, michael, you seem to think will DOES like girls come s4. 

s3 and s4 are heavy on mike desperation to be normal and his inability to fully conform no matter how much he wishes he could. 

back to the ending of s3, after mike and will’s talk, the scene with mike and el is even MORE insane. to be talking in will’s bedroom, with mike framed inside of will’s closet to symbolize mike is now being fully shoved back inside of the closet but el is safe. el, we like el. but we don’t love el. but with the chance to have that veil of normalcy back, mike grabs it no matter how much it actually hurts him to. because mike has become fully aware the feelings he knows he should be feeling for el, he feels for will. 

hopper’s letter is so important in foreshadowing byler. mike feels like he’s losing will all over again, not only because he’s moving but because he’s shoved himself back into forced conformity with el, not wanting to admit or acknowledge the realization he’s had but the realization is there. you cannot experience internalized homophobia unless you have some sort of sense/realization that you are queer. (why do I feel this way? I hate it) to say that mike isn’t somewhat aware is a bit ridiculous to me, he knows something is “wrong” he knows feeling the way he feels around will isn’t “normal”. people realizing/knowing they’re queer isn’t some new revelation. I'm not saying that mike can’t suppress it, cause he surely does until he CAN’T anymore. 

this is why I believe some ppl think mike’s internalized homophobia and repression is much more intense that it actually is. why I don’t believe mike isn’t aware of feelings for will, why I believe mike is in fact very aware of his feelings he’s just scared, he still feels this need to be normal and that will is straight. 

into s4 we get awkward and jealous mike right off the bat. if mike didn’t have feelings for will, if he wasn’t aware of them he’d have been able to hug will right then and there instead of making it weird. mike is also already aware of the painting at the time, and really does believe the painting it for a girl, for angela and mike is jealous. mike can’t even realize el has been lying her ass off since he landed because he’s literally so focused on will and his jealousy, his pettiness. and again, mike is projecting onto will again when confronted about his behavior. “and us?”, “we’re friends, WE’RE FRIENDS.” “we used to be best friends” this conversation alone shows us that mike felt as if something else was being insinuated, his defensiveness, the way his whole facade drops for a moment. mike has thought about them being more than friends, mike equates letters to romance yet he can’t even write “love, mike” at the end of his letters for el. sure seems very romantic to me, definitely not spending actual money to long distance call will all the way in california only for the line to be busy every time. 

it’s getting to the point where mike is becoming unable to lie to himself anymore, where’s he’s still desperate to keep el, but he’s unable to give her what she wants because it’s too much for him to do and he just can’t. still refusing to say he loves her to her face, even with her crying in front of him. he uses the classic “I care about you so much” instead of saying he loves her. It’s very reminiscent of how a couple would breakup when one loses feelings or how someone would respond to a confession from a friend. it’s because mike does care about her, as a friend, but he doesn’t love her romantically and he can’t write it and he can’t say it because he can’t continue lying to himself and lie to el. friends don’t lie. mike can’t sit there and lie to her face. 

now onto the painting/van scene. here’s why I don’t believe mike thinks the painting is from el (besides the fact that I absolutely hate the theory that mike loves whoever’s feelings are behind the painting and how they make him feel cause that’s such shallow reason to love someone and also those feelings are will’s no matter what so???) at least AT FIRST. mike goes into s4 believing that will made a painting for a girl he likes, sees the painting rolled up at the airport and if the painting were meant for mike from el, will would have handed the painting over to mike either way and not have waited to give it to him and with a coded confession added on top? it’s so ridiculous to jump through all of these hoops for mike to think the painting was from el. the van scene is so important for how the rest of s4 ends. with el coming to terms that she doesn’t love mike and that they are over to their coded (but not official) breakup in sbp before el piggybacks in the freezer. and it’s because mike isn’t as oblivious as people make him out to be, he’s so observant, how else would he come up with such good plans for stuff? he’s smart. mike is giving will heart eyes because he’s so sure will is talking about himself and not el. why would will be crying? el doesn’t even care about d&d? why wouldn't she have given him the painting herself when he arrived in california? why would will have it? why would he bring it with them when fleeing lenora? none of it adds up. mike feels like his feelings could be requited but everything gets absolutely fucked up when will tells mike that he’s the heart and it’s absolutely crushing to mike. 

and so mike pushes himself back into the forced conformity corner to no avail. because el is over him, it fixes nothing. mike feels defeated and confused. was the painting actually from el? none of it makes sense. mike is going to go into s5 asking questions, ending things with el officially and pining over will as he tries to figure out if his feelings are requited, keeping will safe but while also keeping himself and his feelings as safe as he can. 

mike’s character is so complex, he’s so interesting to me and it’s why he’s my favorite. 

he wants to break out and be himself to it’s fullest extent but at the same time he’s so still so scared. his character arc will be satisfactory, to stop himself from his forced conformity, to let himself love will. to stop himself from being scared of being “not normal”. no main character in stranger things is “normal”.