#not mentioning the specific discourse because it’s really not my place to comment on the specific topic

[thealphaaxolotl]

It’s shocking to me how quickly people forget that their experiences are not universal

[thecoolerliauditore]

sorry for the meta fandom discourse post but is it just me or does it sometimes feel like alot of people in the fandom really, really hate everyone else in the fandom. maybe I'm just more observant now but it feels like a relatively recent thing.

I don't like naming names in these but it's really hard to not to so forgive me but it seems like it started when people got more comfortable publicly saying they didnt like the art1mator smp people, then more and more anons on confession blogs would start very unsubtly complaining about specific fan artists they dislike (a little before this point there was a lot of general complaining about twinks or anime styles or whatever but never targetted). There's something here about the dehumanization of "big artists" too but I'm probably not eloquent enough to put it into words.

I'm a bit of a hypocrite when it comes to this because I do this too (although I do try to clarify each time I do that I respect the alternative as well) but I've seen so many posts in the scott tag specifically that are framed around proving other interpretations "wrong" than sharing your own. It used to be "scott is loyal and kind" and now it's "despite what People say, scott is loyal and kind". I don't check other tags closely enough to judge whether this is just the obligatory scott having more discourse than everyone else effect or if this is a wider spread thing but it's definitely something I've noticed. There's also the occasional post in there that's just like "some people are SO WRONG about scott" with no elaboration whatsoever?

And now with the Pearl Discourse TM it feels as though there's a lot of assuming the worst. This is what I was alluding to with the Gem SL discourse thing FYI like Gem disabled comments and all of a sudden everyone was preaching to the choir about being nicer to Gem, despite the fact that people on here LOVED Gem. There were big ass posts that told off people who called her character evil or for mentioning the Grian 1v3 instead of idk. The people in her comments section who were directly attacking her and made her disable them in the first place. It's so fucking wild to me still how many of my followers are Gem fans since I was piss scared to talk about her at all when SL ended.

Like I've seen people claim the fandom is awful and doesn't deserve this series which is like??? No?????? The start of WL brought about a shit ton of awesome fanart/fic??? All of the people I know are excited and chatting about it?????

Like don't get me wrong there are people in the fandom I personally dislike (and people who I've gotten the impression in the past who dislike me) but that's like. 1 or 2 guys compared to a shit ton of people who are awesome.

Maybe if we just idk. Talked to eachother more like people do instead of assuming someone is the worst because they shared an opinion you don't like or draw in a specific art style the fandom wouldn't seem So Bad.

[ingravinoveritas]

Just popping by to say how much I appreciate you. Thank you for always keeping a level head. Even when you're disagreeing or calling out bullshit, you still manage to stay diplomatic and respectful. And of course, you always focus on the important things, the main one being that Michael is David's #1 fan (and vice versa)

Aw, thank you so much for this! I can't tell you how nice it was to get this message in my inbox (and apologies for not replying sooner, as I've been entirely swamped and am now trying to catch up on my Asks).

Given that this was from two weeks ago, I'm going to guess that this is mainly in response to the whole situation with David's BAFTA nom and some of the reactions that have occurred as a result. I think a lot of people have said a lot of clumsy things (looking at you, Neil) and while some may not have meant to take away from David's big moment, that still seems to be what's happened. I absolutely believe David is more than deserving of the nomination and it is long overdue at this point. He should've been nominated for Des, or even before that, his role as Alec Hardy in Broadchurch, but I am so glad he's finally gotten a nomination now.

I think the reaction a lot of people had was borne out of how tied together David and Michael's performances are as Aziraphale and Crowley, and the thought that if David were to be nominated for that specific role, then one hopes that Michael will also be nominated for his role as Aziraphale at some other point in the future.

But to your comment about my keeping a level head, I find it interesting that, in the midst of all the theories flying around about why Michael wasn't nominated and questions I got to that effect, this post showed up in the tags the same day you sent me this Ask (blog name is cropped out):

This was very obviously in reference to this Ask that I received and had answered just prior to then. This person didn't even have the nerve to mention my blog by name, but had no problem calling me an "rpf fucker" (really nice...). The question pertained to whether Michael's lack of a BAFTA nom could have been because of Anna's off-putting social media posts prior to the announcement, and I indicated in my response that I did not believe this was the case. I am not about to place blame on Anna for something that she had no part of--which I suppose this person was hoping I would do, to give credence to their ludicrous claims of sexism--and I made my position on the matter clear.

So to your comment about me disagreeing, this was exactly what happened...and yet this person had to twist what I wrote so far around (to the point of lying by omission) just to make their point. And yes, I took that Ask seriously, as I take every Ask/Anon that I get seriously, even the ones that attack me (which is also why it takes me for-freaking-ever to answer the questions in my inbox). According to the above blogger, however, instead I should've responded to the person who sent the Ask by mocking them and telling them how ridiculous and stupid they are. Because just politely disagreeing while still allowing someone the space to share their thoughts is so horrible, but telling someone to fuck off is apparently the height of discourse. Ugh.

In any case, I am very much grateful for this message, and for you and everyone else who follows my blog and has been so lovely. It's your encouragement and kindness that gives me the drive to keep posting, so thank you! ❤️❤️

[max1461]

Everything that brings me any amount of joy that I mention on here ends up becoming a topic of debate.

I cultivated a debate-y circle not by accident; I engaged in lots of political discourse and so on, especially in the early days of this blog, because I actually like debate. I've said it many times before. I find it interesting and intellectually productive to argue about politics and philosophy specifically. The problem is that I didn't really realize that the debate would not stay restricted to these topics on which I had invited it. I was unwittingly cultivating a space in which I couldn't talk about any part of my life, any hobby, any opinion, etc., without people feeling implicitly invited to comment negatively on it, to critique it, to take as open for argumentation.

I am not really interested in arguing with strangers on the internet about these things. I respect people who want to do that, and want to be in a community where those are the norms, but I do not like it. It actually makes me feel really bad.

I've been spending a lot less time on here recently, and I'll probably keep doing that. But I do want to keep engaging with this place. I'm just not really sure how in light of these norms. It's quite unpleasant to me!

I am happy to defend the ideas I put out there as such. The writing that I produce, the #society longposts. But I don't like constantly being asked, basically, to defend everything else about myself on here. It sucks.

Some people seem to have effectively avoided it. "Curate your experience" they often say. But if I did that to the extent they advocate, it would probably just end up curating away the things I even come to this place for!

Maybe not, idk.

Well anyway.

[my-lunaberg]

Hello! I saw your post on asking ab ppl's opinions on the DSMP and had so many thoughts to share I actually went to my pc to write this, lol. Long ask incoming, sorry.

I started watching the DSMP in august of 2020, specifically right after the Techno vs. Dream duel. At this point in time, the Dream SMP tag had only like ten posts--not exaggerating, you would scroll and see the same few posts over and over again cause there was almost no fandom. I followed the series pretty much religiously all the way up to the prison break, where I then basically had to stop watching cause my life was falling apart (paying attention to streamers all day every day causes you to fail classes, who knew?)

So I guess I don't have a lot to say on the ending, other than it certainly was an ending. I think the crew did a good job with what they had, I liked the realization c!Tommy had towards c!Dream and what was once an innocent intention of server unity twisting into something else. I think using the nuke to blow everything up to start anew was a cop-out, but I also know (or at least feel like) the server itself was falling apart IRL and they had to bring it to a conclusion somehow. (Because of that, I knew the server wouldn't get a "season 2")

You mentioned how you liked it on a thematic level rather than emotional, and it really made me think about how my own interest manifested. I was certainly invested in these characters and their stories, but I only carried an emotional attachment to c!Tommy and c!Dream (and DreamXD, but only because I love deities in fiction).

I think, story-wise, the DSMP had many elements that hit hard, c!Tommy's abuse being one of them. During the prison arc, when c!Dream is being tortured constantly by c!Quackity, a large part of the fandom rooted for c!Q because c!Dream was an abuser and deserved the dehumanizing treatment. And boy do I have some opinions on that, lol. Because of the nature of the DSMP, I never thought of it as a teaching element, and your comment on that only being prevalent to children's media struck a chord--because, yeah, that makes sense. The target audience for the DSMP is a bit skewed, because it does take place in an all-ages video game, but the storyline and characters themselves would never get a G rating. I always considered the DSMP to be a bunch of people having fun exploring the different ways they can write a story/character, without any real end-game in mind. They did marvelous, too, in my opinion. I don't believe the DSMP was ever meant to be a literary marvel, or whatever the video-game equivalent is, so for a bunch of then-friends just throwing ideas at a wall and seeing what sticks with the fans, it did it's job.

People now, coming into the fandom for the first time, or looking in from the outside trying to analyze it, don't understand it, imo. It's not that the narrative can only be experienced at the time it was written, because no, you can watch and re-watch it thanks to VODS and recap channels. But so many people hear stories of it being a great time and a great story with great characters and then analyze it to put it on a pedestal only to see that its a piece of fiction with many flaws. Not understanding that the SMP wasn't created to be role-playing server, that never even crossed their minds. It was meant to be a place to have fun and explore a snapshot. That's not saying the cc's shouldn't have made the story in the first place, it's just highlighting how out of control the SMP got due to influencers' fame and fun writing. It was a product of its time because everyone was together, quarantined, exploring how far they could go in a virtual setting. Sorry, rambling a bit. I just think that a sensation like the DSMP can never be repeated on such a scale, and that feeling is why so many outsiders expect so much.

Hope this makes sense, haha. Sorry it's not juicy discourse, but thanks for listening anyway.

No its fine, thank you very much for telling me this!

I initially started watching I think right before the exile arc started but by the time I figured out how to best watch it and caught up with it, it had already been going for a few days, then I followed along with it for a while until I lost interest sometime after the big clingyduo v. Dream fight. Then in late 2022 I was at a local comic con and saw someone in a ghostbur cosplay and some people carrying around a big lmanberg flag and it just made me feel so nostalgic that I wanted to rewatch/finish it, and because I thought it would be fun I also made this sideblog to liveblog it. Im pretty sure dsmp was already over or at the very least getting close to the end by the time I did that, so it gave me a kind of distance that definitely affected my experience with the show.

Like, I think if I had kept up with it throughout (what i would consider to be) its decline and then had to witness that ending after all that, I would definitely feel more negatively about it, so I understand why it was upsetting for a lot of fans, but as it stands, I can mostly just remember it as an overall good piece of media that started stumbling towards the last quarter or so and then ended in a way thats fine, although not particularly satisfying on an emotional level. Like, Dream and Tommy's whole storyline was essentially about the cyclical nature of violence and I think ending the cycle is the best way to resolve that kind of story and in theory, having them make amends before they both die together sounds good to me, but idk, in practice I just didnt like it lol. I think its mainly because their attempts to make Dream seem more sympathetic were kinda too little-too late; Dream didnt have his own pov when most people did which automatically dehumanized him in the eyes of the audience, which was brilliant for the manipulative and unpredictable villian character that he was, but I feel like the CCs didnt really realize that that was the case and didnt feel the need to show stuff from his pov, when it was actually vital imo

You said that people coming into the fandom now come into it with these expectations and I think thats true, but I feel like people who have been following it since the rp properly started also tended to put it on a pedastal because of how genuinely impressively good it was in the beginning, and then when the finale was Like That, a lot of them were insanely disappointed. I also think thats where a lot of the discourse revolving around the ending sending a bad message comes from — a lot of people think of it as something very polished like an actual tv-show when thats simply not what it is or ever was. Its just people fucking around and having fun, and when people just fuck around, theyre not really thinking about "being responsible to their audience" or whatever. Take it from me as a writer lol, I have plans for ya-novels that touch on serious topics and with those I do try to be mindful of the fact that my audience is younger (although teenagers are obviously not children and already dont need to be taught via their media anymore imo), but when Im just writing a little short story I'll usually make it as fucked up as possible just because thats fun to me, yknow

[vesemirsexual]

Yennefer also forced/coerced Geralt to have sex with her in places and at times when he didn't want to, was often emotionally abusive (to both Geralt AND Ciri), for example with the whole Istredd thing where she manipulated them both essentially for fun. I know she can be compelling as a character and has an attempt at s growth arc in the books, but I personally think that some of her actions are overlooked way to often and way too easily. Being a survivor of abuse does not give one the right to abuse others. (I promise this is a good faith ask! You asked for examples so these are some that came to my mind first)

Some of these I completely get where you’re coming from, others I’m not sure (BUT I have only reread Lady of the Lake fairly recently, so it’s possible I’m forgetting the bits in text!)

• Yennefer also forced/coerced Geralt to have sex with her in places and at times when he didn't want to

Correct me if I’m wrong, but is this referring to the Yennefer/Geralt having sex in weird places (+ Geralt being like why can we just not have sex on a bed)? I wasn’t giving the impression that was dubcon/coercion at all vs both of them mutually having sex, and Geralt grumbling about location (but still actively wanting to have sex with Yennefer). Possible I’m not recalling something key here though?

• was often emotionally abusive (to both Geralt AND Ciri)

The example I can recall here for Ciri is often “ugly one” - I don’t think I can comment much on that one, as I’ve seen a lot of discourse surrounding specifically how it’s translated/read, so I’ll defer to the Polish speakers on that one. Outside of that, is there another example with Ciri?

Geralt? Yeah, absolutely at points. When we’re first introduced to Yennefer, she’s the antagonist of the text, and their interactions during that timeframe are antagonist-protagonist, and probably understandably the parts people draw most issue with. There’s also points where that continues (e.g their living together, mentions to Nenneke of Yennefer being controlling - although we’re not given an example of what that means).

• example with the whole Istredd thing where she manipulated them both essentially for fun

I have another ask about this I can’t link because I’m currently on mobile, but I will try and add it to this post when I get a chance. I think the Istredd situation (while messed up) is also very misread by a lot of people. I’m not given the impression any of that happened for “fun” per say, but rather a chain of events something like:

Geralt ditches Yennefer in Vengerberg with notes and flowers -> 4 years pass (implied from memory that Istredd supports her during this time + she’s upset about it) -> shakily back together -> Yennefer visits Istredd because she misses the time and lifestyle (also if I remember right, implied to be breakup sex) -> Istredd throws a wrench in the works by proposing (offering Yen commitment + stability) -> Istredd and Geralt preparing to fight to the death -> Yennefer makes up a kestrel to break up with Istredd, and is set on that course. She only makes one up for Geralt because she asks him to admit he loves her, he refuses and instead spirals into self-pity, goes on a “mutants don’t have feelings” spiel and Yennefer makes a kestrel for him after realising he’s not going to take that step

The Istredd situation is definitely messy, but a lot of people seem to shake it down into “Yen being mean for fun/Yen just cheating/Yen being a bitch” when there’s a lot of context to it + it’s really designed to highlight that they’re not at a place in the story where they can be together because they can’t even be honest with each other.

I know she can be compelling as a character and has an attempt at s growth arc in the books, but I personally think that some of her actions are overlooked way to often and way too easily. Being a survivor of abuse does not give one the right to abuse others. (I promise this is a good faith ask! You asked for examples so these are some that came to my mind first)

No, these are good examples and I 100% did ask because sometimes it’s easier to discuss with specific examples in front of you.

I definitely think there’s criticism to be had for Yennefer, and I think a lot of it is focussed in the first half of her character arc. A lot of my issues with it rise because Yennefer gets a lot of hate out of all the Witcher characters - search any platform and you’ll find people saying pretty vile things, and ranting about what a toxic bitch she is.

In contrast, a lot of other characters don’t get this kind of analysis or shakedown at all. I would argue that most characters throughout the series have some pretty ugly moments when they behave in ways that are not okay, but not all of them are called out of it equally. I think good examples of this are Geralt (who also behaves pretty in a shitty manner at different points in his arc) and Dandelion (misogyny, creepy dragon hunt moment with Yennefer, personally I’d argued that he participated in guilt-tripping Geralt into sleeping with someone he didn’t want to) but as fan fave male characters, they don’t get picked apart in the same way + if anyone tries, they’re going to have to fight furious fans.

[struggle-but-its-all-ocean-floor]

I'm here to once again complain about kpop redditors. Does kpop reddit suck? Yes. Have I found a better place to read kpop opinions? No. Twitter is a mess, Army Twitter isn't generally very critical of BTS, in any way, and tumblr still isn't the best place for kpop discourse. So, since I don't know many kpop fans, reddit it is.

Now, on this specific occasion I want to comment on the discourse surrounding BTS's solo careers. There are several bad takes I keep seeing that make me question if those people even know BTS.

V is more interested in an acting career / V is not interested in music. He did one (1) drama and has only in passing mentioned acting again, so why are people fixated on him acting and why do people think he doesn't want to do music? He has the most solo songs out of the vocal line, almost all of them self-written, and he's always recc'ing songs and sharing snippets of stuff he wrote. Does that seem like something a person with no interest in music would do?? On the same vein...

Jin wants to be an actor. / Jin isn't interested in music. He would rather shoot variety content. He literally said in the 2022 Festa that what had interested him in acting in the first place was the opportunity to try different things, but since he's already doing that as an idol he doesn't have an interest in acting anymore (he didn't say it couldn't happen though). Also, Jin did variety to make Army happy and to promote his music. He's too shy and loves to perform on stage so I doubt he's going to ditch music to become a full-time variety entertainer. He's also written several songs. Just because he's not as full of passion for music as some of the other members, or because he also likes food, alcohol and gaming, that does not mean he wishes to quit being an idol. He's worked too hard and come too far for kpop stans to say he'd rather just act.

J-Hope will be the most successful long-term. / J-Hope has the most solo potential. I know redditors love to hype up the least popular members in a group, but this is bullshit. So far, there is nothing that indicates J-Hope will be the most popular member. People used to say this because he released fun songs like CNS, but JITB is not GP-friendly. Yes Hobi is a great dancer, has great stage presence, is a good rapper, is charismatic, etc. but every member has qualities and if J-Hope isn't the most popular member among Army is it really likely that he will become the most popular member worldwide? Imo, apart from CNS, he hasn't made a lot of music that would appeal to a very broad audience, he hasn't even danced much as a solo artist, and his personality isn't any better than the other members. I don't know the future, but the amount of people who even now say J-Hope will be the most successful member long-term makes me think this is another case for over-hyping the "underdog" and undervaluing the "overrated" members.

Suga is only successful in SK. / Suga will only be successful as a producer. That That was a hit and Suga didn't just produce the song, he featured in it and is one of the reasons why the MV and song are so great. He also featured in Girl of My Dreams which did well internationally and has been receiving international coverage by attending NBA games and now the Valentino collab. Plus, D2 was really successful considering it's a pre-Dynamite release and is not pop. Suga has amazing stage presence, many people love his fast and aggressive rapping the most among the rap line, he's real, honest, and straight-forward in a relatable way, he talks about real issues in a relatable way, he's great at promoting their sponsors, he's charismatic and masculine yet cute, he knows how to make exciting yet accessible music, etc.. Stans often say he will be the most successful of the rap line but since popular takes are frowned upon they also say he will only be popular in Korea or that he might just become a producer. In how many different ways must the man tell you he wants to be on stage and making music for a really long time for you to get it?

JK may become the most successful soloist but only because he makes generic pop music. / He works better in a group and only his collabs were successful. / He's boring, shy and doesn't know how to promote himself. I know Jungkook is so popular no one wants to give him proper credit, but he only makes generic music, really? I agree that some of his music is generic, but in the end that is what people like (tons of legends made generic music but it's not considered generic anymore because it's old) and stans seem to conveniently forget all the other songs he's done: Euphoria? A bit generic, yet very successful and pretty timeless, but Begin and My Time? Not generic, that's 2 to 1. Still With You? Not generic, very popular all things considered. Magic Shop? A bit generic, but one of the most popular bsides that BTS themselves love to perform, with nice lyrics and concept. Stay? A bit like Magic Shop but it's the only unit song they still perform and imo one of the songs in BE that aged the best. My You? Aanother fan song. Fan songs tend to be a bit generic and sentimental but he only wrote the lyrics; My You wasn't supposed to become a real song and he was only given 3 instrumentals to choose from. Left & Right? As generic as Bad Decisions and Vibe, and not a solo or self-composed track, but no one calls Jimin generic for those songs. Film Out and Your Eyes Tell? Fans literally rave about those songs, but often seem to forget that it was Jungkook who wrote them for his mixtape. Love is Not Over? Beautiful, not generic, written by Jungkook, and he also wrote parts in Run BTS, Telepathy, Autumn Leaves, Run, No More Dream. Stay Alive? One of the least generic OSTs ever, but I guess it doesn't count because he didn't write it? Dreamers? Sounds like a FIFA song but grows on you like crazy. People love Waka Waka and no one calls it generic. Dreamers is like the new Waka Waka so why is it generic instead of a bop? Because Jungkook has great pop vocals, admires Westen pop artists and has some generic songs and song covers (mostly collabs or unofficial releases), he's being pigeonholed. It's not that I disagree that his current style, or image, is mostly pop and very GP-friendly, but the same could be said of BTS in general, yet we know they have range and aren't just basic or whatever. Saying Jungkook will only become successful because he writes generic music as if he doesn't have the ability to write different styles or as if BTS aren't popular because they also appeal to the GP is just condescending. Also, JK isn't the only shy artist out there and he's had to represent BTS by himself many times; he can do it. Left&Right wouldn't have broken any kind of records if not for JK and Dreamers and Still Alive did pretty well under the circumstances (one being the soundtrack of a boycotted WC with almost no promo and the other being a webtoon OST). Lastly, JK not promoting himself is also a weak argument since that's mostly Hybe's responsibility and he hasn't even debuted yet. Anyway, I just think there are too many double standards when it comes to Jungkook.

[mimiatmidnight]

Can I just say I am deeply uncomfortable with the squaddies (mainly on twitter) celebrating this Disney thing. Disney hasn't become any less evil just because they 'stick it to DeSantis' in order to protect their corporate greed.

The Sussexes should really distance themselves from this. And the squaddies need to understand when people are using the Sussexes for their own gain.

Agreed. But in fairness to the stans, they are far from the only ones. Pretty much all of Lib twt is following this saga and cheering along Disney "putting DeSantis in his place" lol. And like, I get it, people are just rallying against the more visibly, overtly evil entity at the current moment. But people online, especially within political discourse, tend to fall way, WAY too easily into the mentality of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." When most often the depressing truth of the matter is, no, we just have two enemies :/

Although yes, the squad is particularly susceptible to latching onto even the most vaguely positive public acknowledgment. But this specific case doesn't even fall into that category lol. It wasn't even about the Sussexes in particular, it's just a legal loophole for Disney to avoid the rule against perpetuaties by choosing a very visible legal class (current living descendants of the king) to set the expiration date for their contract. The only reason legal commentators even mentioned Lili is because she is the youngest of that class and thus expected to be the deciding factor of the timeline. But it could realistically be any of the five grandkids that'll be the last survivor.

Anyways, it doesn't really matter. I honestly don't think most of the twitter stans even really read the story, I think they just saw the mention and the "Lili is now a Disney princess" jokes and everyone had a chuckle. A random story for the day. I definitely don't think this is anything H&M need to comment on at all.

[wildfangz]

@ Anon respectfully I do not feel comfortable publishing your ask because of the namedropping and I hope you can understand that. I'm going to put this under a cut since it got long but I want to put it out there for anyone engaging with this subject at all to please be mindful of if you're holding black simmers to higher standards or being more aggressive with them, think about what language you're using to describe inZOI and rather it's rooted in anti-asian sentiment, and call each other out when you see other simmers crossing lines.

All I can say first off is I'm so sorry you received the same ask. It is mindblowing to me that someone can ~supposedly~ care about such a subject but be such a bigot which is why I suspect this isn't a person that cares at all and is just using this discourse as a power trip or to fuel their rage addiction. The fact we both received the same ask and it wasn't just unique spur-of-the-moment ableism directed at me bc I pissed them off just makes me more confident in that belief.

And I'm sorry for other aggressive asks you received. Even if you had actually touched the demo and even if you knew about the AI like I said earlier, I feel like there's no good reason to approach people like that. It often has the opposite effect and it's just shitty! Be normal! Stop dehumanizing people that don't 100% agree with you or that are ignorant! Not only are there people that probably agree with you but just didn't think before jumping in which isn't a crime btw, or didn't know, but I know from experience you can even convince people that are excited about the AI inclusion away from supporting it. It always starts with kindness rather than shame or aggression.

Race issues are not something I feel comfortable speaking on in depth because that is not my place but I have noticed a lot of simmers messing around with and enjoying inZOI right now are POC, and black specifically. I can understand the frustration when you feel like you finally have a game that respects you and represents you for it to suddenly be the subject of controversy, I can understand the bad taste in your mouth it leaves to watch fellow black simmers getting harassed seemingly by mostly white and nonblack simmers, and I have no doubt you're getting the worst of any harassment because that's how racism goes. I do also agree that some of the "soulless" type of comments do come off sinophobic and anti-asian in general. (Using sinophobic specifically here since I know the game is made by a south korean company but I've still seen people go on anti-chinese rants about it, and I still remember seeing someone refer to it as "Soulless chinese crap" back not too long after it got announced specifically on yt)

I just ask that fellow white simmers and nonblack simmers try to be mindful about how they're interacting with POC on this subject, and speak up when you see someone being weirdly harsh or mainly targeting black users or other POC. I also ask that people be mindful of the words they're specifically using to describe this game and why they're using those words. And yes I'd agree it's really weird to put a black person specifically on blast while you're just quietly unfollowing and blocking other groups of people that have touched or talked about the game.

That said I hope you or anyone else doesn't let racists and immature people drown out the actual solid criticisms this game is getting. I know I played with the demo and watched gameplay videos, and I'm going to utilize the interest I do have in the game to try to voice my concerns before its too late, but if the AI stays in I will not be purchasing the game and it will not be getting any mentions from me on this blog and that's for what I feel are good reasons.

It's also not great they have a partnership with Curseforge at the moment and I'd love if the community could persuade them out of it, but at the same time I feel like it'd be hypocritical of me to demonize the game completely for that when The Sims has the same deal going on. I think if you're someone strongly in the "It's flat out evil they're doing this and you should not even be talking about the game because of it" camp then respectfully your morals dictate you shouldn't be playing or talking about the sims either, even if you pirated it, even if you invested in it long before the collaboration came about. Been leaving a bad taste in my mouth seeing people be so selective about their morals and knowing it's just different to them because it doesn't directly effect them, they weren't interested or invested in this game at all before this point. Also been sad seeing people brush off and shut down discussion of the impact gaming has on the environment as well, again, because it suits their interests, but I digress.

Overall I feel like there's a lot of people getting caught up in emotions right now, and being further riled up by bad actors, and shutting any and all arguments down out of natural defensiveness when ideally this could be a community discussion. Like I feel like we could do so much more good educating & putting pressure on Krafton collectively to change these things whether we have any interest in the game or not than just trying to shame and block anyone that's not within our echo chamber, or strawmanning anyone that takes issue with the game.

Anyway all that aside I can perfectly understand why you don't feel safe in the community. This is just one incident out of a long line of incidents. Even outside of tumblr and outside of serious topics I've seen so much crazy shit!

Simmers can be especially vicious even compared to other gamers, so I don't wanna say just ignore it. If it takes a significant enough toll on your mental health, it's unfortunate you feel you have to, but you're not "losing" by stepping away from the community. You deserve to enjoy the sims in peace, and if you still want the good parts of the community there's a lot more tight knit sims communities you can enter into other than simblr. At very least right now I'd recommend turning off anon asks and utilizing the block button.

At the same time while getting shitty messages is always distressing sometimes the trash takes itself out !! I wouldn't want anyone following and interacting with me anyway that assumed the absolute worst of me just because I reblogged a mutuals zoi right after the demo came out, and again I'm sorry you got shit for that without even knowing anything about the game.

But I'm a very big believer in people being themselves and the people that matter or align with you will stick around. You do not have to, and shouldn't, give a fuck about people that are disingenuous or dedicated to misunderstanding or misinterpreting you. Anyone on any side of this. And I know that's easier said than done, for me this mindset didn't fully sink in until I cut off some family members that had drained my self confidence all my life, but adopting it makes life so much easier and I hope you can one day enjoy the sims as publicly as you want without worrying about what anyone else has to think or say, within reason.

[thebreakfastgenie]

I don’t know if you took my previous message as “hate” or what but I’m kind of baffled by the fact that you accused me of being “weirder” about the song?? You were posting about the song saying you haven’t listened to it but want to know a couple of clarifying points, and I assumed from that that you hadn’t heard the song so wouldn’t know that it was structured differently from the original song so I thought I would point that out as I think the fact that it’s structured differently addresses a lot of your criticisms about the song (while also introducing new ones).

The fact that you then accused me of trying to “start discourse” is really… look; I took your posting about the song and asking questions about it to be inviting discussion; but instead it kind of feels like you’re insulting me?

But to answer some more of your questions; in a way; yes, there is a FOB equivalent to that. The COVID-19 pandemic doesn’t get a mention at all in their lyrics, but like Joel, they do have a whole song devoted to the rather culturally and historically important event that they missed.

And no, they do not use the line “England’s got a new King”. They do reference the death of the Queen but not with a direct callback to Joel’s lyrics. I think the only direct callback is “Shinzo Abe, blown away”.

Okay anon I apologize, the discourse comment was lighthearted because I just think this this whole thing is kinda funny. You didn't suicide bait me or call me a c*nt so no, I would not call your ask hate!!

I wasn't exactly inviting a discussion on purpose, but I'm definitely not opposed to having one!! I'm just used to being unhinged about this song by myself.

It also didn't occur to me that you would have seen my posts, but not the replies from my mutuals who already answered my lyrics questions and told me it was non-chronological. That was my bad, forgot replies aren't shown unless you look. I was pleased they didn't go for too many obvious lyrical callbacks, especially the King one, but I was really disappointed by the Shinzo Abe lyric (I get that it's tempting but if you want the song to stand on its own it's better not to do it) and "prince and the queen die" just sounds bad to me. It doesn't scan that well, it gives the vibe of the weakest line in a parody. You have to stretch out one of those monosyllabic words and it just sings badly. I get why this happened, though; it probably comes back to having to use the existing melody. But that's why I kinda think this was a bad idea in the first place!

I don't think you understood what I was wondering about an equivalent for, though. I mentioned Billy Joel leaving things out to address the oft-raised claim of "you couldn't even fit these years in a We Didn't Start the Fire, 2020 would need its own verse!" which is not something I've seen Fall Out Boy specifically say, but is relevant to why I like the forty years unit. I was looking for an equivalent of Billy Joel unintentionally documenting the Cold War, to the point where it's often referred to as a song about the Cold War by people who think he did it on purpose. Does 1989-2023 coincide so closely to a particular period like that? It doesn't have to be exact; the Cold War wasn't exactly 1949-1989, but it was a guy born toward the beginning of the Cold War writing a song toward the end of it. Depending on how things end up in Ukraine, I actually could see 2023 ultimately being close to the end of some kind of era, ironically again involving Russia, but it doesn't feel like an era that started in the late eighties. We may not have the answer to this right away!

Edit to add I thought you were being weirder because I took your first ask as thinking I was mad at Fall Out Boy and being upset about it but with the context of this ask I no longer think that!

[dash-n-step]

It's kind of a string of factors, one after another

Crunchyroll made a video announcing that they were doing original content and "making their own anime'', so subscribers got mad, saying "real anime can only be made in Japan" and "I don't want my subscription money, that was advertised as supporting the anime industry, supporting western animation". - Just this alone has angered the "weeb" audience and people feeling like their money was used against their wishes

The trailer announcing High Guardian Spice, specifically, also had a huge emphasis on having diversity in the cast and writer's room, with many of the people being shown in helping the production being women (the creator being a trans man, which I didn't see come up as often, at this point, at least) - So now we've angered the misogynists and racists

And, like you mentioned, the art style factored in, as this was still the time when people complained about western animation all being "bean style" and "calarts", so while being produced by Crunchyroll didn't do it any favors, it can't hide behind having an "anime artstyle", like other shows might, because it's too cutesy - We have now also angered cartoon fans who still haven't gotten over Adventure Time being popular, and at this point we've already got video essays calling it the sign of the end of animation

Now the show ACTUALLY comes out (in 2021, years after the initial trailer in 2018 claiming it'd be out in 2019, with crunchyroll not saying a word about it, and scrubbing any mention of the show from other trailers talking about their original projects), and there's notable animation/layering errors, some of the voice acting is awkward or done with a weird mic, and the writing (in my opinion, passable) is nothing special

I would also be remiss if I didn't mention discourse came up because of how the show also featured trans characters and actively discussed them being trans, with the above mentioned Snapdragon, and the trans man professor (the Caraway in the first text box you posted, voiced by the creator) and had multiple people discussing whether this was "done well" and others believing it shouldn't've been done at all - We have now angered the transphobes, if they somehow didn't factor in the already angered groups

Hearing about the production, it becomes clear that Crunchyroll was NOT confident in this, especially after the backlash, and barely gave the crew much to work with in the first place, but instead of the discussion becoming about that, it's propped up as an example of "go woke, go broke", and the creator can't even do anything with the characters because he no longer owns them, despite him trying to make this into a project for years, so for better or for worse, everyone who worked on it moved on

Ironically, because it's so middling, some of the people hating on it didn't really have much they could get mad about (though people still drive engagement by dunking on it), and watching the show as it released all at once (an example of how Crunchyroll just wanted to be done with it), comments drop hard after a few episodes It didn't even make for a good hate watch

I have one for you but you may not like it. this show was pretty unpopular

Her name is Snapdragon

[cyphertripping]

Pride HCs! (all agents) 🌈

happy pride month :D here’s a fun little compilation of my personal headcanons for the agents/ if they were queer. obv all of the HCs are meant in good fun/ are my own thoughts so i’d love to hear y’alls thoughts or feedback :)

Word Count: 1500+

Warnings: slight NSFW mentions (not too graphic), including slight discussion of kinks

Astra

Astra probably doesn’t define herself purely within Western queer discourse

Despite this, she’s one of the best to talk about general queer crises as she’s very secure in herself— she’s always there with a grounding comment

She’s very open with her love

If she did identify with something, it’d probably be sapphic because she likes the ideology behind it

Breach

Breach figured out pretty early on that he was queer

Being an international criminal definitely gave him room to experiment, though not always in the safest ways

Like Astra, doesn’t really care about the specifics— he likes who he likes. Likewise, definitely down for a poly relationships

Part of the reason he was drawn to Raze when they met was not just because they were fellow engineers but because queer solidarity

Brimstone

Bear— need I say more?

This man definitely had a relationship/ pining with the guy in the photos in his office

The majority of the time he served, the Don’t Ask Don’t Tell policy was in place, and it weighed heavily on his mind as a gay man

If he has to act like he’s attracted to women, I want him to act like Captain Holt (B99)

Chamber

I saw the post about Chamber just being an “America-core Frenchman” and I agree so hard

Yes, he may put on airs of arrogance and superiority, but this man is the whiniest. Bottom. Ever.

He’s always so perfectly in control, in his manner and appearance, he enjoys letting go sometimes. Would enjoy being tied up and gun kink (enough said).

Also, trans (“Vincent” literally screams Victorian child wannabe)

Would use gold tattoos to decorate his top scars

Cypher

Omnisexual/ bisexual— I think the true tragedy of Cypher being forced to hide his identity is that he can’t have relationships/ hookups with everyone he finds attractive (which is, to be fair, a lot of people)

Though, assuming Nora is his wife and still alive, Cypher would remain faithful

He isn’t above flirting with other people though

Very slight voyeurism kink

Fade

Definitely a lesbian catgirl

Contrary to her abilities, I doubt she’s into BDSM/ heavy kink— she’s experienced so much horror in the eldritch realm, I imagine she just wants really caring sex/ relationships and isn’t as much into control play

Does really subtle things to celebrate pride, like rainbow studs or painting her nails rainbow

Jett

Jett would likely take a long time to come to terms with her sexuality, with her parents being a bit more conservative (let's go Asian parents!!)

Being at the VP was her first opportunity to really experiment and naturally, she latched onto the person she had grown closest with— Phoenix

My favorite HC is that Jett and Phoenix getting together was what made both of them realize that they prefer the other gender

I think Jett would like to be a bit more flexible with her own label, seeing herself as a sapphic

KAY/O

Kay/o gives demisexual vibes, as he would take a long time to process that he even liked someone and that it was possible with his programing

Given the theories about Kay/o being based off one of Brim’s old friends (and with all the imagery of them carrying each other) — perhaps romance could bloom there?

If he found he enjoyed sex, he would be incredibly disappointed he can’t give oral (like really just absolutely torn up about it)

Killjoy

Panromantic asexual— I think KJ is just someone who’s not that interested in sex, but romantically a lot of people

Obviously, I love KJ and Raze being girlfriends, and so I think Killjoy would be willing to have sex/ enjoys pleasuring Raze as she’s not sex-repulsed, just wouldn’t seek it out if her partner didn’t want it!

Would be interested in using different toys to see how Raze reacts

Neon

Bisexual queen— enjoys relationships with all people

Also trans, using she/they pronouns! It took them a long time to come to terms with being bisexual and trans, but they’re truly happy now, being able to do the work they love and be themself

Despite her electric fast abilities, Neon’s a hopeless romantic and enjoys taking relationships slow

A bit of a classic bisexual in that they’re constantly worrying that they’re faking it— what if they’re actually straight? Or just gay? All she knows is that she loves who she loves and tries to find solace in that

Would try to paint her surge protector rainbow

Omen

Omen is genderqueer (using all pronouns)— as their old life fades from their mind, I think they could find solace in gender expression and how they present. They’ve been called a lot of things— demon, a hollow shell of a man, but none of those feel quite right. Being genderqueer gives Omen a sense of control and for the first time, a label that feels right to them

Even though he can struggle with corporeality sometimes, he really enjoys giving hand jobs— it gives them something to focus their form on (though if Omen gets really excited, he might disappear into smoke a bit)

They are the ultimate malewife in the relationship

Phoenix

As said with the Jett HC, they were their realizations that they were queer

On Phoenix’s half, I see him as bisexual, with a leaning toward men (as for Jett, it just wasn’t the right fit— but it was being with her that made him realize he had a much larger potential for who he could love)

He would bug Yoru into showing him his drag fits and want to try it out

Raze

Lesbian all the way! Raze loves the deepness and explosivity of relationships with other women

Very respectful of KJ’s asexuality and they’ve had long talks about what each of their needs are

Doesn’t want to push KJ to have sex with her, but finds it amusing that KJ can make sex enjoyable for herself by making Raze the test subject

Not to get into explicit detail, but let’s just say Killjoy has definitely kept Raze up way longer than she expected

Reyna

While she may not identify as the term exactly, I think Reyna could be a graysexual lesbian, in the sense that she isn’t attracted to men, and doesn’t entirely enjoy sex

Headcanon that she faced a lot of pressure from being a conventionally attractive, authoritative latina— which pushed her into realizing she doesn’t enjoy male attention

If she is sexually attracted to someone, she’s into switching. She finds being top fun, but it’s a turn off if that’s expected of her all the time. Sometimes Reyna just wants to be taken care of :(

I think the Reyna/ Sage pairing is cute and could make for an interesting “coworkers to enemies to lovers” dynamic. They clearly have a lot of emotions toward each other, and their powers poetically contrast each other

She can be a bit of a sadist, especially if it’s a hookup, but tries to tone it down for Sage as their relationship develops

Sage

Didn’t think about sexuality for a long time, with pressures from her family and work

Following the first light incident and the awakening of her radiant abilities, Sage begins to finally self-reflect internally and honestly

Identifies primarily as gay/ queer. For all the nuance of Sage’s advice to others, she finds it enough to acknowledge that she loves differently and whom she loves is not who her parents expected of her

At the same time, Sage is the most likely to read up on queer discourse— she finds it interesting to see how others have grappled with the questions she has and how perspectives have changed over time within the LGBT+ community

Surprisingly really enjoys being a top and in control. It helps her relax and gives her a feeling of agency

In a pre-relationship to Reyna, perhaps Reyna was the first to realize her feelings, yet still acted aggressively. Sage took a long time to unwrap her identity and then eventually reached back out to Reyna, healing their past relationship

Skye

Queer and polyamorous— Skye loves to just go to a bar and meet others, have an adventure

While she doesn’t have particular kinks, she’s a very flexible and caring partner, would be happy to experiment with whatever

Most likely to settle on a farm with her partners, two dogs, and a myriad of other animals

Sova

The sort of person who always secretly knew he was gay. Also could see Sova as nonbinary, using they/he pronouns!

Didn’t really have to work through a lot of toxic masculinity to get to these realizations, as while sexuality/ gender aren’t really discussed where they’re from, it just wasn’t the focus

His hometown was so far north and cold that whoever brought in food was appreciated, regardless of gender. Survival and family was the largest emphasis

Enjoys wearing fur heeled boots as a treat to himself (also just when it’s cold enough to even warrant the boots they have from home)

They’re definitely either the gentlest top, or a power bottom

While enjoying some classic vanilla sex, is also into being tied up

Viper

Not asexual, but highly touch starved from isolating herself in her work

Bisexual, with a leaning toward women/ nonbinary folk. She’s had relationships with men but they just don’t satisfy her the same way (also she’s tired of being underestimated in science because she’s a woman)

Strong dom, takes care of her partners well (as meticulous as she is, not a detail goes out of place with aftercare). Also would be into breathplay

Yoru

I’m sorry, but he gives “you’re gay because you like men, I’m gay because I hate women, we are not the same” energy

With his interest in fashion and makeup, Yoru would enjoy drag, putting his own spin on it with Japanese culture— he’s more flattered than he’d like to admit when the other queens compliment his outfits and makeup

Honestly, he would struggle a lot with dismantling internalized homophobia and the toxic self expectations he has for himself— this would come out in inadvertently being an asshole on dates by accident

Yoru does get better over time, even supporting Omen while they were figuring out their gender crisis. The two of them have always bonded in their teleportation abilities and this solidifies their relationship further

[ailuronymy]

Thoughts on the new discourse? Warrior cats naming conventions and rank names being straight up stolen from native American people? So many people seem to be... Straight up leaving the Fandom or changing all of their fan content and it feels very performative and, people not actually thinking critically and just being scared of getting "cancelled"? I feel like your opinions on these matters are very informed and well written so I wanted to ask given that this blog main theme is, well, warrior cat naming system and that seems to be the main issue of the new discourse.

This is probably going to get long, since there's sort of a lot to say about it in order to talk about this whole thing fairly and constructively, because from what I’ve seen there’s a lot of hyperbole happening, and panicking, and disavowing this series and fandom, and so on, like you say, and also some people genuinely trying to have complex meaningful conversations about racism in xenofiction, and also probably some bad faith actors in the mix--as well as some just... stupid actors. Kind of inevitably what happens when two equally bad platforms for having nuanced discussions--i.e., twitter and tumblr--run headlong into each other, in a fandom space with a majority demographic of basically kids and highly anxious, pretty online teens. I don’t mean that as a criticism of fans or their desire to be liked by peers and “correct” about opinions, it’s just the social landscape of Warriors and I think it’s worth pointing out from the start.  

If I’m totally honest with you, if not for this ask, I wouldn’t actually be commenting on it at all, because none of this is going to impact this blog or change how I run it in any way. But since you’ve asked and frankly I do feel some responsibility to try to disentangle things a little for everyone stressed and confused at the moment, because I know a lot of people look to this blog for guidance of all sorts, I’m going to talk about what I think has happened here, and how to navigate the situation in a reasonable way. 

Quick recap for anyone blissfully unaware: from what I understand, this post (migrated over from a presumably bigger twitter thread) has got a lot of people very worried about Warriors being a racist and appropriative series, and now are trying to figure out what ethically to do about this revelation. The thing I found most interesting about this screenshotted conversation is that it makes a lot of bold claims, but misses some pretty surprising details (in my opinion). If you do look critically at what is being said, here’s a few things to notice--crucially, there are two people talking. 

Person 1 says that a lot of animal fantasy fiction + xenofiction (fiction about non-human/”other” beings, such as animals) is frequently built upon stereotypes of First Nations and Indigenous people, and/or appropriates elements of Indigenous culture and tradition as basically set dressing for “strange” and “alien” races/species etc., and this is a racist, deeply othering, and inappropriate practice. This person is right. 

I’ve spent years researching in this field specifically, so I feel pretty confident in vouching (for whatever that’s worth) that this person is absolutely right in making this point. Not only is it frequently in animal fiction/xenofiction, but it’s insidious, which means often it’s hard to notice when it’s happening--unless you know what you’re looking for, or you are personally familiar with the details or tropes that are being appropriated. Because of the nature of racism, white and other non-First Nations people don’t always recognise this trend within texts--even texts they’re creating--but it’s important for us all, and especially white people, to be more aware, because it’s not actually First Nations’ people’s responsibility to be the sole critics of this tradition of theft and misuse. Appropriation by non-Indigenous people is in fact the problem, which means non-Indigenous people learning and changing is the solution. 

Person 1 offers Warriors as a popular example of a work that has this problem. Notably, this person hasn’t given an example of how Warriors is culpable (at least in this screenshot and I haven’t found the thread itself, because the screenshot is what’s causing this conversation), only that it’s an example of a work that has these problems. And once again, this person is correct. We’ll look at that more in a moment.

Person 2 (three tweets below the first) offers, by comparison, several more specious insights. Firstly, it’s really, really not the only time anyone’s ever talked about this, academically + creatively or in the Warriors fandom specifically, and so that reveals somewhat this person’s previous engagement in the space they’re talking into re: this topic. In other words, this person doesn’t know what has already been said or what is being talked about. Secondly, this person explicitly states that they “[don’t know] much about warrior cats specifically but from what I see it just screams appropriation,” which as a statement I think says something crucial re: the critical lens this person has applied + the amount of forethought and depth of analysis of their criticism of this particular series. 

I’m not saying that using twitter to talk about your personal feelings requires you to research everything you talk about before you shoot your mouth off. However, I personally don’t go into a conversation about a topic I don’t know anything about except a cursory glance to offer bold and scathing criticisms based on what it “just screams” to me. By their own admission, this person isn’t really offering good faith, thoughtful criticism of the series, in line with Person 1′s tweet. Instead, Person 2 is talking pretty condescendingly and emphatically about--as the kids say--the vibes they get from the series, and I’m afraid that just doesn’t hold up well in this court. 

So now that there’s Person 1 (i.e., very reasonable, important, interesting criticism) and Person 2 (i.e., impassioned but completely vibes-based opinion from someone who hasn’t read the books) separated, we can see there’s actually several things happening in this brief snapshot, and some of them aren’t super congruent with each other. 

Person 1 didn’t say “don’t read bad books,” or that you’re a bad person for being a fan of stories that are guilty of this. They suggested people should recognise the ways xenofiction uses Indigenous people and their culture inappropriately and often for profit. My understanding of this tweet is someone offering an insight that might not have occurred to many people, but that is valuable and important to consider going forward in how they view, engage with, and create xenofiction media.

Person 2 uses high modality, evocative language that appeals to the emotions. That’s not a criticism of this person: they’re allowed to talk in whatever tone they want, and to express their personal feelings and opinions. However, rhetorically, this person is using this specific language--consciously or subconsciously--to incense their audience--i.e., you. Are you feeling called to action? What action do you feel called to when you rea their words, despite the fact their claims are not based in their own actual analysis of or engagement with the text? It’s, by their own admission, not analysis at all. Everything they evoke is purely in the name of “not good” vibes. 

Earlier I mentioned that Person 1 is correct that Warriors is absolutely guilty of appropriation of First Nations and Indigenous people and culture. I also mentioned that they didn’t specify how. That’s because I think the most egregious example is in fact the tribe, which in many ways plays into the exact kind of stereotyping and appropriation of First Nations Americans that Person 1 mentions, and not the clans, contrary to Person 2′s suggestion. For instance, in addition to the very loaded name of “tribe”, there’s a lot of racist tropes present in how that group of cats is introduced and how the clan cats interact with them, as well as the more North American-inspired scenery of their home. It’s very blatant as far as racism in this series. 

When it comes to the clans themselves, though, I think it’s muddier and harder to draw clear distinctions of what is directly appropriative, what is coincidentally and superficially reminiscent, and what is not related at all. Part of this difficulty in drawing hard lines comes from the fact that, on a personal level, it actually doesn’t matter: if a First Nations person reads a story and feel it is appropriative or inappropriate, it’s not actually anyone’s place to “correct” them on their reading of the text. Our experiences are unique and informed by our perspectives and values, and no group of people are a monolith, which means within community, there will always be disagreement and differenting points of view. There is no one single truth or opinion, which means that First Nations people even in the same family might have very different feelings about the same text and very different perspectives on how respectful, or not, it might be. 

I’m saying this because something that gets said very often when conversations of racism and similar oppressive systems present/perpetuated in texts comes up, people frequently say: “listen to x voices.” It is excellent advice. However, the less pithy but equally valuable follow-up advice is: “listen to the voices of many people of x group, gather information and perspective, and then ultimately use your own judgement to make an informed opinion for yourself.” It means that you are responsible for you. The insight you can gain by listening to people who know topics and experiences far better than you do is truly invaluable, but if your approach to the world is simply to parrot the first voice, or loudest voice, or angriest voice you come across, you will not really learn anything or be able to develop your own understanding and you certainly won’t be making well-informed judgements. 

In other words, one incomplete tweet thread from two people who are each bringing quite different topics and modes of conversation (or perhaps gripes, in Person 2′s case) to the table is not really enough to go off re: making a decision to leave a fandom, in my opinion. In fact, I think in responding to anything difficult, complex, or problematic (which doesn’t mean what popular adage bandies it about to mean) by trying to distance yourself, or cleanse of it, will ultimately harm you and will not do you any good as a person. It is better, in my opinion, to enter into complex relationships with the world and media and other people in an informed, aware way and with a willingness to learn and sometimes to make mistakes and be wrong, rather than shy away from potential conflict or fear that interacting with a text will somehow taint you or define your morality in absolutes. 

So. Does Warriors have racist and appropriative elements, tropes, and issues in the series? Yes, of course it does, it’s a book-packaged series produced by corporation HarperCollins and written by a handful of white British women and their myriad ghostwriters. Racism is just one part of the picture. The books are frequently also ableist, sexist, and homophobic (or heteronormative, depending how you want to slice it, I guess), just to name some of the most evident problems. 

But does the presence of these issues mean it’s contaminated and shouldn’t be touched? Personally, I don’t think so. Given the nature of existing the world, it’s not possible to find perfect media that is free of any kind of bias, prejudice, or even just ideas or topics or concepts that are challenging or uncomfortable. I think it’s more meaningful to choose to engage with these elements, discuss them, criticise them, learn from them, and acknowledge also that imperfection is the ultimate destiny of all of us, especially creators.

I’m not saying that as a pass, like, “oh enjoy your media willy-nilly, nothing matters, do what you want, think about no-one else ever because we’re all flawed beings,” but rather that it’s important not to look away from the problems in the things we enjoy, rather than cut off all contact and enjoyment when we realise the problems. That doesn’t mean you have to only criticise and always be talking about how bad a thing you like is either, publicly admonishing yourself or the text, because that’s also not a constructive way to engage with media. 

As I said, there’s a lot to say here, and believe it or not, this is honestly the shortest version I could manage. There’s always more to say and plenty I haven’t talked about, but pretty much tl;dr: 

I don’t find Person 2′s commentary particularly compelling, personally, because I think it’s a little broad and a little specious in its conclusions and evidence, and I also suspect that this person is speaking more from their feelings than from a genuine desire to educate or meaningfully criticise, unlike Person 1. That’s not to say Warriors isn’t frequently racist and guilty of the issues Person 1 is discussing, because it is, but I don’t think this tweet thread is a great source of insight into the ongoing history of this problem in xenofiction, or Warriors specifically, on its own. I would recommend exploring further afield to learn more from a variety of sources and form your own opinions. I hope this helps. 

[stubbornjerk]

Why people keep telling you to block them if you support Pholo (Penumbra Edition)

Or: why jitterbug-juno really deactivated

I love when people categorize this as fandom wank. Really makes you feel like you’re putting the onus on either side of the conversation.

I’m making this post not because I want to stir up spoiled milk, but because I want it out there that this wasn’t a purity culture war.

The TL;DR version of this is that fans of color tried to tell Rab (prev. jitterbug-juno) not to post her Omegaverse (or A/B/O) fic. And instead of taking the L, she posted it on Ao3 and deactivated.

But, if you want context, well, buckle in. CW for mentions of racism and transphobia.

What did jitterbug-juno do?

Before I get into this I do want it out there that I will not be linking Rab’s fic, but I will show you this screenshot of the summary of it.

[ID: It is a screenshot of a fic, “As You Are” by Pholo.

Summary: Peter can hide his scent glands behind cologne; makeup; concealer pads. He can quash his heats with suppressants. He can divert the urge to nest and fawn.

But he can’t feign another gender’s subvocals. He lacks the anatomical capacity. Mag taught him to distract from his silence with fast, flashy words. For longer heists he relies on social convention. Traumatic mutism is uncommon, but remarked upon by enough war vets and soap operas to be widely recognized. Peter’s marks assume he’s been harmed long before they assume he’s a closeted omega. It would take quite the backwater brute to ask why he doesn’t murmur or chuff or growl.

On the 'Blanche there are the usual furtive glances. Juno makes clear to Peter that should he ever want “to talk about what happened,” he’ll be there to listen. The gesture annoys Peter more than comforts him.

‘Nothing happened,’ he wants to scream. ‘There’s nothing to talk about!’

There are 14 comments, 85 kudos, and 11 bookmarks /end]

You decide what you’re doing with that information, but honestly, I’d rather you don’t give it anymore engagement than it deserves.

There was a period earlier this June (yes, even though it’s only the 10th, at time of writing) when Rab was posting snippets of the aforementioned fic on her blog and tagging it appropriately, putting it in the attention of pretty much the entire Penumbra fandom.

What’s Omegaverse or a/b/o and why is everyone so against Rab for it

If you know what Omegaverse is, I don’t have to tell you why it’s controversial. If you don’t know what Omegaverse is, well, Fanlore said it best:

a kink trope wherein some or all people have defined biological roles based on a hierarchical system, with the terms originating from animal behaviour research. There may be werewolf, knotting, or other animalistic elements involved, or the characters may be otherwise purely human.

The term is generally written with slashes (a/b/o). Many fans, particularly ones from Australia and New Zealand, are uncomfortable seeing the term without slashes because it is also an Australian slur for aboriginal people.

I won’t get into the history or the heaps and tons of other discourses (mostly about fictional male pregnancy, homophobia, transphobia, sexual assault, etc.)  that go on within that. We’re here specifically on Rab v. Penumbra fans of color and we’re staying there.

Anyone who’s been in Penumbra enough to realize that everyone draws the Junoverse characters in a certain way knows that a) Juno is black, b) Nureyev is Asian, and c) as a fan you have to be aware of what you’re subjecting or saying about either of them because of the political repercussions that come with it.

And despite that, Rab proceeded to write Peter Nureyev, a gender nonconforming gay Asian male character that is widely headcanon’d as trans, into a fic using a kink trope that relies heavily on animal behavior.

Unlike most people new to fandom, Rab is aware of what Omegaverse is and is very much white. She is (and if she isn’t, should be) aware of the racist undertones that writing him in would get.

I couldn’t get a screenshot of what snippets Rab was sending out into the ether, seeing as a majority of my friends would rather not have seen any at all (I have all of the usual tags blocked so I wouldn’t have seen it either way), but needless to say, Rab got attention for it. Both positive and negative.

Anne (@hopeless-eccentric) even posted a satirical fic, in the odds that Rab was just writing this thing to be “the first” to write Omegaverse fic in the Penumbra tags.

But, I’m assuming more than one fan of color came into Rab’s inbox and messaged her about it, but someone I know (who would like to remain anonymous) was gracious enough to take a screenshot before he sent his in and let me use it for this post:

[ID: A message to jitterbug-juno about to be sent by a sender whose name is censored with a black bar. His messages says:

“as someone who is a person of color i think the nature of the fic you are writing right now is extremely racist and attributing animal characteristics to lgbt people of color is not at all appropriate, especially when you are someone who is white. i have to ask you to not publish this fic and to reflect as to why you would want to write this in the first place, these tropes are extremely harmful and”

There are 33 characters left to write into the message. /end]

I can’t speak for whoever else sent asks about the fic she was writing. If anyone was actually not-so-gentle with her, well, minorities don’t really owe it to you to be gentle about what they can tell is bigotry-tinged behavior.

But, the message was clear: this is different from your garden variety, lily white straight male character m/m kink fantasy. This is an actual queer Asian character that a lot of queer Asian people feel attached do. Do not post the fic.

What happened next: the beginning of the end

The next morning, I woke up to most of my friends being frustrated by this post on Rab’s account:

[ID: Dated 5 June, a post by jitterbug-juno:

“Gonna leave the fandom for a while. Wishing you all well.”

The tags say the following: not sure if i’ll be back, thank you so much to everybody who’s read my fics, and who’s sent asks or engaged with my art or any of that, you’re amazing and I’m sending love /end]

That... was not what fans of color wanted, but it was definitely an action they took. Some celebrated, as they were very much wary of Rab for having caused much of the same category of drama in fandoms like Voltron: Legendary Defenders and Warrior Cats. This also meant that she was probably not going to post the fic either.

Some, myself included, were relatively pissed, as they’d wanted even just the measly bit of accountability. An apology or an acknowledgement of having been called out in private and that they’ll take time to consider why. But instead we got Rab leaving in the face of fans of color telling her not to post her Omegaverse fic.

Well. The next day...

[ID: Dated 6 June. A post by jitterbug-juno titled, “Well... that was short-lived”

“I gave the situation a lot of thought yesterday. The reaction to my omegaverse previews made me figure I should leave the fandom. It seemed like the safest option.

But you know what?

Hell.

I don’t want to leave. The fic discusses the tropes of omegaverse and I spoke to several POC on Twitter, and I’m going to post it with plenty of tags so people can avoid it if they wish. I’m not going to be chased out of this space.

Thank you to everyone who sent messages yesterday. I shouldn’t have made that post about leaving. It was really reactionary. I’m okay and I appreciate your support so much.

(bolded on the post) To those who are angry and uncomfortable with me: Please block me. If you’re going to talk about this fic on Tumblr and Twitter– and this may sound odd– PLEASE NAME ME as Jitterbug-juno or Pholo. Don’t vague me. That way people who don’t want to see this discourse can add my name to their block lists.“ /end]

That certainly was short-lived, she wasn’t kidding.

This got a lot of outrage. Again, the fic is up on Ao3 and she has not taken it down. A lot of POC were pissed and I didn’t see a single fan of color actively support what she was doing, at least, not in my friend group. Everyone started making those posts to block them if you liked the fic or Rab’s content in general, in accordance to what Rab wanted.

Perseus (@mraudiodrama) noticed/pointed out that Rab deleted the part where she said she spoke to several POC about releasing her fic, as well as the part where she said she refused to be chased out of the fandom. This was an incredibly pointed detail to edit out, according to some.

[ID: A screenshot of jitterbug-juno's last post taken 11:00PM. Much of it is the same except the following bolded words are removed: "The fic discusses the tropes of omegaverse and I spoke to several POC on Twitter, and I’m going to post it with plenty of tags so people can avoid it if they wish. I’m not going to be chased out of this space." /end]

That same day, Rab deleted her blog. I actually caught this one on tape, believe it or not.

[ID: A screen recording taken at 12:01 PM of someone scrolling down jitterbug-juno's account. The posts and asks about Omegaverse and her post about leaving and coming back are conspicuously absent. /end]

Initially, I thought she deleted all mentions of it. I wanted to see firsthand if the rumors about her deleting portions of it were true. If she added things where she was saying that she wanted to write it because she was autistic and wanted Nureyev to be autistic too, regardless of the numerous QPOC telling her not to do it.

Instead, it turned out, she deleted her blog.

And now, we're here. The fic is still up. Her blog is down. Rab's public Twitter account @nataclinn is quiet about this. Her @cushfuddled Twitter account is on private after her run-in with the Warrior Cats fandom, according to a friend. And her Tumblr @cushfuddled account has nothing but memes.

Again, I didn't make this post to stir up drama. I wasn't even obsessively making this post as a call-out because she isn't in the fandom anymore. I just want it out there that this isn't a purity culture thing that got out of hand in a fandom as niche as Penumbra. This was a case of someone being called out and failing to acknowledge it before running away. And I want all that out of the way before I say:

If you are on Rab's side of this debacle, I, a queer person of color, want nothing to do with you either.

[a-a-a-anon]

i also just wanted to include my additional rant/thoughts! which also motivated me to make this post lol

i’m a bit peeved by the way Lise is treated in TYO discourse I guess, though not in a way that's to blame anyone! it’s just that whenever a TYO video comes up with Lise the first comment I see is about how gorgeous she is, and obviously she is and that is to be celebrated too, but it's mentioned so much more than how good of a writer she was or how much she contributed to the show. and it focuses a woman's identity on her appearance. even in the TYO creators conversation when Lise is asked if it felt like a boys club at the time, she starts answering and brings up the BBC bar where she could hardly get a drink without getting her ass pinched 15 times. which is when A Man (Paul Jackson, but every man laughs-and so does Lise! I'm not saying she should be offended or that he was being a Bad Guy! this just demonstrates my point) butts in and says "you had a very nice bottom" and then her answer gets derailed and he finishes by answering a question directed to Lise-specifically about her experience as a woman-for her. and her physical appearance is considered/remembered/commented on first, and not her perspective. and i think it was very valuable to have a female perspective on TYO! the tampon joke probably would've been cut if a woman wasn't there to (write AND) defend it!

and it's nice to see when she's remembered (as a writer and not just as an attractive woman who was present) at all. shout out to alexei for mentioning Lise throughout his autobiography, because in the autobiographies of people involved I could find/articles or books about TYO, they largely mention Lise once or twice, in passing. which is fine, it's not their responsibility to represent her. but it's nice to actually hear about Lise's presence. she was there in the alternative comedy scene since at least the Rik-at-the-Comedy-Store days (where she met Alexei, but she could've been involved earlier as she was at manchester university at the same time as Rik and Ade) and she went on the Australia tour with The Comic Strip gang too. and in a lot of articles or writings about TYO or whatever, they mention Lise first/primarily as a girlfriend to Rik and then as a writer, which is a tiny thing I personally find annoying. because in the context of TYO its her instrumental contributions as a writer/co-creator that should be her legacy, not her relatively brief relationship with Rik, right? and idk, it almost gives the impression that she was tacked on because she was Rik's girlfriend and like she just helped out on the writing when really she was a Co-Writer and Co-Creator, which I feel is a big difference. Lise had a job running a pub theater, had a drama professor for a father, had written for Kevin Turvey in A Kick Up The Eighties, etc, so I don’t think she would’ve been completely unfamiliar with writing, even comedic writing, at least not substantially less than Rik even though she wasn't a comic like him; i’m basically saying she was also a very valuable asset for the writing/creation of TYO and was not just There for no reason. she and Rik together came up with the sitcom idea in the first place! 

right, and that's the other thing, I get the impression that she and Rik weren't only romantic partners but arguably creative partners. like, from Rowland's quote you can tell that his live performances were refined with her. and the success of his live stage performances led to Kevin Turvey and Boom Boom, which led to TYO, all of which helped jump start his stardom. all while she was quite literally on the sidelines/in the dark, again contributing. which really brings to mind the quote "behind every great man is a great woman." not that she should be credited with Rik's success, nor am I saying Rik owed his success to her, obviously he was very talented on his own. i’m just acknowledging that she did have a hand in his success. and, well, i was very disappointed to learn that Rik cheated on her for years and the way he dealt with her and Barbara's pregnancies. of course it's unfortunate timing to meet your future wife while you're already in a relationship, but the same happened to other people in their circle (Ben/Sophie and Ade/Jennifer) and they did not have affairs. and to meet the other woman while Rik was playing a character which Lise cowrote and doesn't get credit for is unfortunate irony! and to continue the affair while she continued writing for his characters, which helped drive his career success. and the way he responded to the situation in that 2002 article was a bit dismissive IMO: “I suppose it wasn't very nice at the time… I don't feel at all guilty.” (not that he should feel guilty for marrying Barbara, but maybe for how he dealt with the situation/affair.) and because he's been interviewed about it and Lise hasn't, Rik had basically all the power and say in how the public perceives the story, for example not mentioning that Lise was pregnant at the time and lost her baby in this article (the media focusing on his perspective isn't his fault of course, but a side effect of how the media works. it’s just another unfortunate aspect of the situation.) i have to emphasize, this is all said with so much respect to Rik and his beautiful marriage and in no way am i trying to take away from his comedy or legacy! obviously I'm a huge fan of his work and I understand he was an imperfect man. and i know it's not that shocking that a celebrity has had affairs and i'm glad he and Lise could eventually make up. but to be a woman overlooked in the 1980s comedy scene and to have That happen with a comedy tv star you’ve worked with and supported for years sounds borderline traumatic to me. 

i just think all women in comedy deserve their flowers and appreciation and it drives me crazy to think she worked so hard and had to go through way too much shit and was so instrumental in the making of an iconic show and most people know nothing about her contributions/barely remember her (which isn’t really their fault, but the media’s i think, but at this point fans have the ability to learn more about her.) 

i’m honestly tempted to edit the Kevin Turvey wikipedia page, which I would bet no one cares about, just to add her name lol. also, if i had to GUESS i would guess that Lise was particularly influential in writing the pathetic embarrassing TYO moments-see Neil saying everyone hates him or Rick not knowing what a tampon is-and the slightly surreal elements-see the cast switching costumes which is never addressed again (of course though I acknowledge the writers were all roughly equally responsible for the scripts of the show.) honestly prior to this post i would’ve thought those elements were largely thanks to Rik (alongside the slapstick) because he loved playing loser characters and certain parts of Bottom were surreal (but i mean, it does appear he wrote the Elephanthead segment.) it’s very possible that he and Lise were equally into embarrassment humor of course, but i think Rik’s initial vision of Rick the Poet was more angry - so perhaps Lise helped bring the embarrassed, missing out on the joke, nervous energy aspect of Rick’s character more to light because Rick in the tampon joke really exemplifies those characteristics. like certainly Rick on TYO is delusional just like the initial Rick the Poet character on Boom Boom but he's also DEEPLY insecure. even just seeing the openings of Rick the Poet in Boom Boom... “My name’s Rick... SHUT UP!” (very determined! and also funny. he thinks he's “got” the audience) vs in Wogan as TYO Rick... “um... hi... my name’s... um... Wick.... what’s funny??” you can see a difference. obviously i think Rik had a large hand in this development but i would guess that Lise had quite a hand in it as well? this is all obviously guesswork about stuff that happened 40 years ago hahaha.

(did not mean to write this much on this topic omg!)

appreciation post for Lise Mayer!! she co-wrote The Young Ones (and The Bachelor Boys book, additional material like when they did Comic Relief, etc), which is well known. but she also wrote for other things in the alternative comedy scene like Rik Mayall and Ben Elton's comedy tour (source: BBC Breakfast Time interview)! and, something I didn't know until recently: she co-wrote/wrote for Kevin Turvey! she's not credited in his television appearances, but see below for sources.

i really loved the podcast episode she did with Alexei Sayle about TYO, you gain a lot of insight into her perspective! she also mentions misogynistic treatment like being asked to go make tea when they were doing script readings, not getting invited to a big BBC party because it was presumed she'd be Rik's plus-one, and getting groped at the BBC bar. it pissed me off on her behalf and partly prompted this post.

some specific accolades/accreditation/fun facts:

Rik crediting her with writing/conceiving the Kevin Turvey non-joke "All right, biting political satire: What do Lech Walesea and Menachem Begin have in common? They’ve both got foreign names! What do you mean it’s not funny?" (x)

Alexei Sayle in Thatcher Stole My Trousers crediting Lise with co-writing Turvey: "Lise was, like Linda for mine, a vital part of Rik’s career, co-writing both The Young Ones and Rik’s character Kevin Turvey..."

a 1987 source for Lise co-writing Turvey: "The assumption that women do not write comedy scripts was one with which Lise Mayer, co-writer of The Young Ones television series, has also had to contend. She started writing for Rik Mayall’s Kevin Turvey in the television series A Kick Up the Eighties..." (x)

Rowland Rivron (comedian who toured with The Comic Strip gang and lived with Rik and Lise) in What the f*** did I do last night?: "[Lise] also had the unenviable job of standing at the side of the stage when Rik was performing, and jotting down anything he said that was unscripted. If it got a laugh, it would be woven into the next night’s routine."

the only time i've ever seen a Rik Mayall/Ade Edmondson/Lise Mayer writing credit: for a poem called Distance which was collected in this anthology! Rik and Ade seem to have acted it out (or at least a version of it) in this 20th Century Coyote performance

Rik on Lise writing TYO: "‘She discovers different things: the comedy of embarrassment and awkwardness – she draws out the cheating and stealing that goes on in the house.’" (x) (Lise also says her "favorite comedy was always the comedy of embarrassment" in the Alexei Sayle podcast)

Rik: "... Lise Mayer wrote this great scene where I find a tampon in a handbag and it's my birthday party and I think it's a present because my character is Rick, who is such a git, he didn't know." (x)

Helen Lederer in Not That I'm Bitter, writing about being on The Young Ones: "[Lise] was known to be the brains behind it all, particularly the more surreal elements…"

she and Rik chose the bands (x)

Lise: “We’d have a table read at which point we’d discover that the script ran over an hour long, and then I’d have a sleepless night editing it.” Alexei: “You did that?” Lise: “Usually me, yeah…” (she later explains they'd present the script Monday and rehearsals were Tuesday, Wednesday-so she literally had one night to edit!) (x)

facts from the blu-ray commentary tracks:

Rick's yellow dungarees in Interesting were based off a picture of Lise in a similar pair

Lise wrote an essay about the tampon joke in Interesting so that the BBC didn't cut the scene (though they still edited it)

Paul Jackson (producer) credits Lise with arguing "you are seriously telling me that we cannot refer on television to something that happens to 50% of the population for about 30 years of their life? and we're not allowed to even refer to it" to make an executive back off about the tampon joke in a meeting

Lise came up with Neil's flowerpot covering in Nasty

Vyvyan/Vivian's name comes from Lise having lived in Vyvyan Terrace, Bristol

Lise thought of the cast switching costumes in Bambi (one of my favorite moments!!) (/end of commentary track facts)

this is guesswork, but i've seen Ben Elton and Rik Mayall's handwriting and i'm pretty sure the editing/handwriting on the bottom left on this script must be Lise's, which gives insight into what/how she wrote: (x)

i feel like it's easy for people to overlook or minimize Lise's impact, something that happens to female creators far too often. i hate when women's identities are framed around their association to a man-girlfriend to Rik in this case-which was the norm whenever i saw Lise discussed in articles/books/online discussions about TYO. it's important to know she was a writer and co-creator with her own identity and (underappreciated) contributions. The Young Ones (and Kevin Turvey, and things we don't even know she goes uncredited for) would not have been the same—or wouldn't have even existed—without her!

[thedreadvampy]

Ok like I'm sorry for all the Elias discourse but stepping off from OGlias for a moment I legit saw someone saying it was a mischaracterisation to assume Jonah Magnus was himself a rich white dude which

uh

Let's leave aside for the moment that Jonah Magnus not being wealthy and privileged utterly sucks the meaning of of a lot of what the podcast has to say about class and exploration because hey, that's a matter of interpretation

What do we know about Jonah Magnus (from all statements mentioning his original incarnation)?

1816: Interacts as at least an equal with Albrecht von Closen, who has at least one family estate and an aristocratic pedigree and thus could be expected to be at least middle class if not wealthy. This is relevant because Georgian class was very stratified and cross-class mixing heavily discouraged, 1816 is probably fairly early in Magnus' career, and Albrecht doesn't address him as one would a social inferior.

1818: Established the Magnus Institute, apparently without external funding partners because he's the only one ever mentioned in connection with its organisation and his friends talk about it as his own project; it certainly isn't associated with an existing university or academy as far as we can tell.

1824: not a lot of additional information, except that again Magnus' friends are all moving in wealthy, upper class circles

1831: In a position to hire professionals for Millbank under good terms. We learn more about Albrecht, he's definitely painted as wealthy old money, which continues to speak to this association

1841: reasonably close friends with Sampson Kempthorne, workhouse designer, who expresses the expectation of Magnus agreeing with him about workhouses and the treatment of the poor through work. At this time, Magnus is living in an Edinburgh townhouse, by which I'm guessing we're talking about one of the New Town Georgian 4-floors-plus-servant's-quarters which that name implies. Those aren't mansions, but they weren't where a clerk or shopkeeper would live - they were built for ship owners, lawyers, doctors, the upper-middle and upper classes, and as the name townhouse implies they were generally occupied as one of several estates, with the usual occupants being likely to also have a country place.

Beyond specific statement letters, Magnus largely crops up via his association with his wee gang, all of whom are wealthy upper-middle or aristocracy (Smirke, Rayner, Lukas)

He has the resources and social clout to devote his time to pursuing what is, effectively, a hobby; his interest in the supernatural doesn't bring in much income and, conversely, often costs him to chase up. He doesn't appear to have a full-time job at any point; he works on Millbank with Smirke but he doesn't appear on the records, meaning this is unlikely to be a paid management role. His friends refer to his supernatural work as a hobby or interest, not a job, and make it clear that at least by the 1830s-40s this is his whole life (he's "rattling around with his books and letters") - ergo he does not have a need to support himself beyond that.

He had the resources and funds to, by himself and for his own purposes, not only shape the building of Millbank but also to set up an independent academic institution which is still running 200 years later

Like, is it explicit that he's a rich white man? Not per se. Would all of this information make sense if he wasn't? I suppose it's possible but it's a reach, and one that I'm not sure why you as a writer would make without making pretty clear. To be able to move comfortably in moneyed Georgian circles without being born to money, and to be able to do the things Magnus does without having substantial disposable income - that would be exceptional, and would surely merit some sort of comment.

(I've talked about the race politics of Georgian Britain as relates to Jonah Magnus before, but just to sum up: in a time before the abolition of the slave trade and during massive colonial expansion into Asia, being a British man of wealth and not being white was pretty unusual. We can see this in the description of Rayner; he's very specifically described as Black, but also his Blackness is notable to a contemporary narrator. so again, not impossible for Jonah to be a person of colour, but definitely unexpected and it would be an interesting choice to write that unremarked)

just by way of historical context, as I say, class was very structured and immobile in Georgian Britain for the most part. It was also, as I understand it, much more discrete. Whereas now, the lines between working class, middle class and upper class are pretty fuzzy, in the 1800s they were a lot more clear-cut - the working class worked for little money, had little to no education past basic literacy and numeracy, and the entire household would work; the newly developing middle class made a living through highly-skilled jobs (artists, doctors, lawyers, clerks, shopkeepers, factory owners, shop owners and pub landlords, for example) and would have enough disposable income to buy property; and the upper class/gentry may work (but only appropriate to their station; academia, law or the church, largely, and of course a lot of them in the 1810s made bank from Caribbean plantations and their imports) but substantially they lived off the profits of investments, ownership and estate management, built off heritable wealth. 

There’s a big range of middle class though, although it was a small segment of society. At the bottom end, you have your grocers, pub landlords, shopkeepers, clerks and so on - they probably own their homes and business and have money to buy things outright rather than renting. At the top end, we have some really pretty substantial wealth - we’re talking multiple houses and estates, large-scale business concerns, tens of permanent staff, and only one person in the family needing to work. The difference between upper middle and aristocracy isn’t necessarily in quality of life, aside from blood it’s really just a question of whether the majority of your income comes from work or from investment and property management. So for example, Smirke is upper middle, but very wealthy - he has a career in a high-profile trade, he’s notable and welcome in high society, but ultimately his wealth is dependent on him continuing to get work. Von Closen may have more or less material wealth than Smirke, but his money is old money and he does not work; he’s very much a gentleman of the upper crust. Particularly with Industrial Revolution and the profit that the slave trade and the expansion of the Empire were bringing in for traders, the middle class was abruptly getting a lot richer in at the start of the 19th century and if anything class was getting a lot more discrete - urbanisation and industrialisation meant the poor were getting poorer (and less able to exist outside a monetary economy) and the working rich were getting a lot richer (until of course after a couple of hundred years the upper middle class almost eclipsed the idle class as the Rich and Powerful)

So the gentry/nobles/old money/upper class were the only class whose wealth wasn’t to a high degree reliant on them working, and so honestly being a Georgian gentleman was stultifyingly boring. That’s why so many comedies of manners crop up from the lower end of the upper class - you have to find something to keep you busy and social politicking is something. But it also meant a lot of gentlemen scholars - men with time on their hands and nothing they desperately needed to be doing, who got really into eccentric hobbies and niche interests (like social engineering, or art theory, or the occult, or unpicking weirdly specific theological concepts, or a bit earlier experimenting with light and lenses, or a bit later investigating the origins of species, or getting super into a specific aspect of the classics). The idle rich weren’t the only ones doing academia or research, but they had the time, money and resources to devote to really deep dives into things without much financial use.

So my personal take is that, given that by 1818 Jonah Magnus had the capital, the social heft and the time to found and run an independent academic institution focused on his relatively niche interests, and to do so with enough resourcing that it still runs 200 years later, the safest bet is that he was born a gentleman. At the very least, all the people he socialises with are securely upper-middle or gentry; he has a visible disdain for the poor; he owned substantial personal property by at least middle age (the Edinburgh townhouse); he had the social clout to get involved behind the scenes in a major social architecture project - it seems like the lowest this could possibly place him is mid-to-upper middle class at birth (he could have made that much money from working and lucky investments, but to get into a position where by middle age you can afford to become the Idle Rich, spending all your money and time on an obsessive personal interest, you would need to have started off with at least the capital and clout to get a high-level education and/or make significant business investments (say, buy a series of factories or build a shipping empire). You could make a case that he could work his way up from being born to a middling-middle-class family - maybe a country vicar or a shopkeeper - but friends can I show you some numbers I googled?

In the 1810s, being mid- or upper middle class (fourth or above) meant you were richer than 94.5% of the civilian population. Upper middle and above (like literally every person we know of who had social ties to Magnus except maybe the architects)? Literally top 1%. (well. 1.25%).

The middle class in Georgian Britain was the elite. They weren’t the elite of the elite, but they had money, land, property, staff, clout and privilege. You can’t project the class politics of 2021 onto 1818 (that is, in fact, why pure Marxism still requires an updated reading, bc in even the last 150 years the specific distribution and attributes of class and wealth has changed substantially (although the same people do stay at the top and bottom)). 

I think our perceptions are altered by the worries and perspectives of popular contemporary authors. For example, Austen characters often bemoan their lack of wealth, and are firmly Middle Class, and compared to the upper middle and the gentry they are living frugally and on a budget, but with “cottages” that are often six- or seven bedroom houses with several parlours and one or two servants, plus a town house, and with only one breadwinner per family and enough invested wealth to live entirely off the interest (that’s what the incomes of these characters are), they are living in a degree of wealth that would be unthinkable to 95% of their contemporaries, and it would be fair to assess them as rich by modern standards.

You can argue that Jonah Magnus wasn’t aristocracy. You cannot argue realistically that he wasn’t rich. Not only does that make no thematic or character sense (again, that’s a matter of interpretation, but it seems to me to be Pretty Key to his character that he’s an examination of inborn privilege) but it also makes no contextual historical sense.