#not being mean to tang sanzang btw

[dirwael]

making a side character's backstory way more cool and fun than the main character's is like how the first seven chapters of jttw are all about sun wukong and then you learn he isn’t even the main character

[jedineedlove]

Tang Sanzang's Secret Library?

Thought I give some quick thoughts on these scenes enjoy:)

In Embrace Your Destiny episodes The Corrupted King and Time to Be Warriors is the only time we see this hidden library belonging to the great monk with many filled scrolls and books of hidden writings sadly this place is never really brought up again after the fall LBD.

I decided to study on it a little bit. Mainy on the art you see around and just some general observations.

After they crashing down the winding stairs they find this small rotunda filled with writing and statues and art.

The statues are the first interesting thing you notice because they come up most in these scenes. The odd thing about them is the lack of Ao Lie.

The next thing is that the statues are placed unevenly Tripitaka is all the way in the back next to no one on his level and the other two Bajie and Wujing are next to each other level-wise. Then we have Monkey who isn't on the stairs at all and is instead his own podium front and center which is doubly odd this meant to be Tripitakas library after the journey of the west.

Why the lack of Ao Lie and center Wukong. Perhaps it is like many other motifs of their journey with Wukong at the top or center to symbolize him being the one front and center leading the group and the fact that Triptka is in the back because he himself doesn't need a statue of himself as not be vain but for other who visit.

But the lack of Ao Lie still gets me we see later when he gets his own painting. But there are two possibilities one Ao Lies statue did exist but crumbled and we can't see the remains or this is the biggest one as we see on Wukong's statue he is without his signature golden fillet what if these statues were molded a bit after the journey and the reason we don't have Ao Lie statue was that he died before this built This would mean Ao Lie died first then the others.

Another thing about the image behind them is the one of the mountain range on the top of the steps it is most likely meant to be the ritual sight

The other Art pieces might also tell the story of the Sahmiad Fire and the Rings

Ao Lie seemed to get his own sections a small staircase to get a closer look at his image which might solidify my earlier theory that Ao Lie was the first it die and this is a moment of him. Or if these all tell a story then this would point to his involvement in the ring's formation.

On the right we get another image of the pilgrims and like the statue Wukong is front and center depicted as the one leading them though waves.

the left image is hard to depict but the seems to be small things with wings all aimed to the center of the frame.

We also get over a lock-shaped door an image of the heavenly palace but if you look closer the seems to be the image of a bringing figure falling toward it from the upper middle of the image.

The image next to it are my reason for this theory of these telling a story.

next to it is the image of the Bull King and look at the emphases on his nose ring one of the rings of Samiadi. Next to it are images of flames but in another scene we get a smaller part of that image

You can see Bull King on the left but on the right, a continuation of the second image is someone in chains having something magically drained from them. The figures seem to have uplifted hair like red son.

This place is filled with info that could help them but the show never brings it up again. Also, the candles were already lit when they first arrived so either they are magic candles that always stay lit or someone was here before them and left recently.

Just saying:)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------BTW I have a major question my guess is this is a continuity error by Ao Lie horse form changed

In the image on the right we see Ao Lie horse form having a black main.

we also see it on Wukong's now former mural of the Pilgrims that Ao Lie was depicted with a black short main BUT.

Most likely this was a continuity error but I do like the white horse look more:)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Then this cute thing is faded by time but on the main pillar at the base is a fading image of the pilgrims or at least three of them.

I tried my best to recreate it with what I saw. Also, I think they also are meant to show Wukong because the golden wave going over them is most likely Wukong's cloud trail but he is hidden behind a d long purple tapestry. I encourage artists to take a closer look and see what I missed.

This image so far seems to be Wujing cheering out loud maybe at Wukong on his cloud then Tripitaka gives him a look but without the mouth, I can't tell and Bajie seems to be reaching for Tripitaka or just doing a pose.

[sketching-shark]

Wukong was always the villain? I read in a comment that he was the villain in everything and that he's like the Joker but with powers so i have this doubt now...

Ps: Sorry if this is ignorant btw

Hello anon! So while keeping in mind that I'm in no way an expert on how the Monkey King is perceived the world over, my general impression is that while Sun Wukong being portrayed as solely a villain is pretty popular in the east and increasingly so in the west, that's FAR from the only way that he's been portrayed. He is after all literally worshiped as a god in a number of places, and is even often considered to be a protector of children! It also can't be forgotten that he saved many, many individuals from everything from demonic goldfish to drought over the course of Xiyouji, and that at the end he becomes the Buddha Victorious in Strife. And that's to say nothing of his clear love of his monkey family, and that many of his actions are driven by his desire to keep them happy and safe. In any case, from the yaoguai perspective he seems to have done so much for them at one point that they were all 100% behind him when it came to waging war against heaven.

I think that perhaps a lot of the understanding of him as solely a chaotic villain is due to the fact that Journey to the West is some 1,400 pages long and a lot of it is about Sun Wukong's slow transformation from a violent yaoguai to a buddha. It probably is more exciting too to focus on the fact that he spent centuries as a literal yaoguai warlord, and that he waged his havoc in heaven as well as told Tang Sanzang that he had literally killed more people than he could remember during his warlord era. Of course, it can't be forgotten that this killing of countless individuals is explicitly said to be true as well of the lauded Tang emperor, but that's a contextual detail that can be easily missed. I personally think that a lot of Xiyouji brings up (although never specifically answers) many discomfiting questions about violence and power in the shaping of a society and to what extent religion might be able to alleviate (or even exacerbate!) the resultant suffering, and that Sun Wukong's actions are one of the main ways these questions are raised.

I bring this all up to say that the neat thing about Sun Wukong is that he is a very complex character who nevertheless does a lot of heinous things, but then again he's doing that in the context of a lot of other beings, both yaoguai, human, and even god, doing the same in the name of pursuing their own desires and ambitions. But this complexity often means that retellings--which by their nature of their length have to be a LOT shorter than the og classic--won't balance all of the parts of the Monkey King's character out because to do so sufficiently honestly requires a lot of context. So in the end we get a lot of flanderization of the Monkey King into either a cheeky and loving SWK or an ultraviolent unrepentant SWK (or the retelling will veer off into another direction of a quite popular brooding asshole SWK lmao). In the west specifically, however, this sort of simplification and flanderization seems to often translate into a "uwu dumb chaos monkey" version, so that even if SWK is well meaning he'll just commit one doofy blunder after another or go ignoramus murder on the situation. Hence the association with the Joker, who if my understanding of that character is right just does what he does because he wants chaos.

In all honesty though, I think this association is a big misreading of SWK's character. Besides Xiyouji making it obvious that SWK rarely starts any of the fights he gets into (never mind starting fights just for shits and giggles) and that he is very content to live in relative peace with his monkey family, he pretty much always has a very clear reason for committing the violence that he does, even if that reason is sometimes some version of "I want the thing and will beat you up if I don't get it." To give but a few examples: SWK commits his first murder in the book because his opponent the Demon King of Confusion had been brutally attacking the Mt. Huaguoshan simians and kidnapping their young; he DID steal a lot of stuff from heaven but only goes to war with them when the deities are literally breaking down the Monkey King's door and threatening his home; he murders over a thousand human hunters because they had been relentlessly hunting his monkey family; he burns down a Buddhist monastery because the monks conspired to kill Tang Sanzang and steal his robe; and he kills the Lady Bone Demon because she wanted to eat Tang Sanzang. These are just a few examples throughout the course of the work, but you can see how in each one it isn't a case of the Monkey King crying havoc and letting slip the dogs of war as it is someone trying to hurt or kill someone under SWK's protection and him responding in like. There is no doubt that SWK can be a very destructive and impulsive monkey, but he also seems equally if not more likely to have thought a situation through and gone with violence anyway because the situation wasn't going to resolve itself any other way, and indeed he often only goes ahead with violence after giving his opponents the opportunity to stop and give up.

That said, I'd be willing to bet that an awareness of Xiyouji Sun Wukong's very deliberate decisions to kill and threaten are one of the main reasons behind the popular presentations of him as solely a villain, especially since the context behind his reasons for violence can be very easily lost. As it is, the Monkey King has been described by some as Xiyouji's first villain, and there are numerous reasons for thinking this is true. After all, no matter your reasons killing so many people you can't remember them all is still killing so many people you can't remember them all.

I hope you find this useful anon! Again I'm no expert, and if I'm missing something people should definitely feel free to point that out. And as always it needs to be noted that @journeytothewestresearch has kindly provided FREE pdf copies of the Anthony C. Yu English translation of Journey to the West on his website, so if you have the time and desire to do so you can flip through that and come to your own conclusions on what's going on with the Monkey King.

[kirchefuchs]

so @an-t-hiho (previously known as @/ann-aha) and I have been screaming at each other in our dms discussing a few things abt lmk

and we have both agreed that there should be an AU where Wukong doesn't completely Screw Things Up between he and Macaque and they both end up tormenting being mentors to MK

(forgive me for not knowing/maybe not remembering a ton of things abt Wukong's past bUT I heard from somewhere that in JTTW the Tang guy from the past completely tortures him with that crown thing?? hoping to use that as some sort of motivation but uhhhh hEY I do not know a lot abt JTTW so um. ahem. unless if you have some spare knowledge to give us, we're just gonna make stuff up as Ant and I hyperfixate about this soon-to-be AU we're planning on making)

bUT. but. but. we have plans™. and it's not just me this time who's thinking of these ideas (but it'll definitely just be me raising your inbox cuz Ant's still too nervous to do that) cuz now he and I are in the same fandoms for once in. like. uh. (checks calendar) ...a few months–

SO. I might send an ask again regarding our ACTUAL ideas (aaaand maybe Ant will reblog and/or add smthn a few hours after?? not too sure but knowing him he just might) AND you're gonna deal with it again /lh /silly

(I also might post about it. maybe. probably won't but just. mmmmmmaybe I dunno actually shdhdh OKAY BYEE)

(this also may or may not have been inspired by that one piece of fanart with P!Wukong saying smthn along the lines of "Do you really think you mean so little to me that I'd just kill you just like that?" and P!Macaque saying smthn in return like "You didn't exactly make it difficult for me to think that way," but, yk, I'll probably find it again–)

— 🅰️non CH🅰️Y || Oct. 20 2023

This ended up so much longer than I anticipated ( ﾟAﾟ )

Okay okay okay I need to explain a lil thing real quick. Tang Sanzang (Tripitaka) did not torture Wukong, at least not intentionally. There was a really good post about it somewhere on here, but I cant seem to find it so I'll explain what I can.

First off, Tripitaka was the main character of the story, and while he had some flaws (ex: listening to Bajie too much), he was a good man, and would never want to torture any of his deciples, no matter how annoying they'd get. He's a Buddhist monk afterall, there's a whole no violence thing.

The golden circlet/crown was given to Tripitaka by Guanyin to act as a way to punish Wukong for things he does wrong. Think about it for a moment. Remember, Wukong was just released from under a mountain after terrorizing the entire celestial realm, becoming 7 times immortal (I think it was that many), fighting all the celestial armies, peeing on Buddah's hand. After being released, Wukong promptly killed a tiger and skinned it so he could use the skin as clothes.

SO YEAH, obviously Tripitaka would take her up on a crown that would give the monkey really bad headaches!!! (Reciting a specific scripture I forgot makes the crown shrink, but it doesn't kill Wukong because he's very super immortal).

Now the thing is, yes, he did use the spell on Wukong multiple times when Wukong had done nothing wrong, but a lot of those were because Bajie told him Wukong did something wrong, or he just didn't have all the facts. Now, I haven't read the Journey to the West either, and most of my knowledge comes from the Overly Sarcastic Productions videos summarizing the story (which you should watch, btw), so I dont have all the facts, nor do I have a perfect knowledge of the parts of the story I do know, however I am confident that Tripitaka did not intentionally tourture or abuse Wukong. I mean, Wukong cut off his own head once for fun, so idk what else to say, my guy.

Do I think that using the migrane spell is the most moral thing to do? No. Was the spell the only way to get Wukong to cooperate? At the very start, very possibly yes. Later? I'mnot sure. Is Tripitaka a bad guy for using it as much as he does? No, he didn't know better. Are the Wukong girlies wayyy to obsessed with angst? Yes, so very much. I fear for them.

It was not the point of the story for Tripitaka to be abusive. The story was meant to be symbolic. Each of the pilgrims symbolized a part of a person. Tripitaka was the heart, Wukong the mind, Zhu Bajie the body, Bai Longma the will, and Sha Wujing the emotions. (There are some lovely people on this hellsite who can explain the symbolism better than me, so you can go look into that if it interests you.)

All in all, every one of the pilgrims were pretty stupid (affectionate) in their own ways, and I hate seeing people hate on Tripitaka soecifically when the story is so ridiculous a lot of the time. I just love these silly little guys, and I think we need to remember that they are very silly. Tripitaka never meant to be cruel to Wukong just as in lmk Wukong and Macaque never meant to be cruel to each other in their past. All these idiots are pretty bad at communicating, and Tripitaka is incredibly socially awkward. Man doesn't know how friends work.

I just think we should cut him some slack for the mistakes he made. Yall forgave Wukong for all his chaos and bloodshed, so I think it'd just be fair to forgive Tripitaka for not really comprehending having hurt Wukong.

Anyways, I'll shut up now. I'm excited to hear the ramblings of you two nerds ♡♡♡♡

[sketching-shark]

Is it true that wukong ate actual human beings? And is he misanthropic towards them? Is he also misogynistic? (don't mean to sound like a feminist here btw lol)

Well there is a scene where he CLAIMS to have eaten a lot of humans, but its in the context of him trying to convince Tang Sanzang to not trust one of the many yaoguai who disguised itself in a bid to capture and eat him. Sounds kind of convoluted, but this monk had a history of not trusting what the monkey says and in this case SWK seems to have been banking of TSZ's belief that he's purely wicked by stating that he used to trick and devour humans in the same way that the yaoguai of the week was trying to do, all in an attempt to persuade the monk to not immediately trust some random stranger more than he trusts his first disciple lmao.

Whether SWK has or has not eaten humans is something of a point of debate, but given that SWK having a sweet and even life-giving breath was mentioned a couple of times in the text this does indicate that he never actually did, as doing so would apparently make his breath forever somewhat foul. It's also true that rhesus macaques (the monkey SWK is thought to be based on) just won't eat meat either raw or cooked, even when offered.

THAT SAID, I think you can say that the monkey king became pretty misanthropic in his pre-journey days given that he became the absolute bestest of friends with a confirmed man-eater (the Demon Bull King), and during this time he seems to have only really associated with other yaoguai, at least after Patriarch Subodhi forced Sun Wukong to leave the taoist's cave. Pre- and for a good chunk of the journey itself SWK also seems to have regarded humans mostly as either an annoyance or as a threat that he needed to defend his beloved monkeys (and sometimes his monk) against, and perhaps with good reason given what happened to the Mt. Huaguoshan simians after the war with heaven. Even so, the monkey king does appear to warm up to at least some humans, and he does do a lot to help many of them during the journey. Heck, I've read that right now in some parts of the world he's worshiped as a powerful exorcist and a protector of human children!

As for whether he's misogynistic, I'd say no given that in addition to two of his most trusted advisors and one of his sworn brothers being ladies he's also polite and respectful towards the women he encounters throughout the course of the journey. Well, unless they offend him in which case all bets are off (as it is with the mens as well).

When it comes to threats against his loved ones you could perhaps call the monkey king an equal opportunity hater aewfaesfwf.