#no hate to dog treats btw if that’s somehow how you interpret this

[clowneryandshenanegans]

I swear I’ve always seen so many fun treats for dogs, like bacon strips, those toothbrush things, dog ice cream, treats with meat fillings, all that stuff, and in the same store on the next isle it’s just the same three generic cat treats with a different brand

[moviestorian]

what do you think Theon and George Warleggan have in common?

Hi!

First of all, I am so SO very sorry it took me ages toreply. I’ve had plenty of different things to do, and I thought this is such aninteresting question that deserves a fully developed reply. Finally, I’mreplying, and the final result is over 3000 words. :P

Disclaimer: my interpretation is basedon both show and book Theon, but almost entirely show version of George (he’sslightly different than his book counterpart, and also I’m reading The BlackMoon, so I wouldn’t even have a full context to discuss book George, so…)

I briefly outlined the topic at the endof this post, but it’s really short, and I will try to be moreprecise here. Ok, let’s start!

George& Theon vs. fandom

I will start with something which may not be a typicalparallel and is not directly connected with George/Theon’s personality (I mean,it could be refered to many other characters), but I still find it strikingenough to consider. I’m talking about the fandom’s most usual reaction to bothof these characters. Theon and George are (probably) equally disliked byPoldark/GoT fandoms. There are (rather small)groups of their fans of course,but there are definitely many more of those who - to put it mildly - dislikethem. Quite frankly, I think Theon’s fanbase is actually bigger than George’s,but this may be because GoT/Asoiaf fandom outnumbers the Poldark one.

Coming back to the fandoms’ reaction, George and Theonare commonly perceived as “evil”. George is rather frequently calleda “villain” (I kinda get why people think so but I’d argue with that, tome he’s more of an antagonist, just like Javert or Frollo), and while I don’tsee people using the same term to describe Theon that often, I’ve come acrosssuch opinions as well (also…I believe GRRM called him a villain…). Finally,they both receive a fair amount of hate, and well… this hatred can be very nasty(selective empathy, maybe?). I guess I shouldn’t be surprised anymore, but I’mstill quite astounded how awful things people can write… (I’m talking aboutposts in which you can find such gems as “Theon deserved to be tortured”,castration jokes etc., or “George should be flayed alive” and that Rossshould’ve put his face in fire.

Identityproblem

George Warleggan and Theon Greyjoy, as Inoticed, deal with the “I don’t belong anywhere” problem, even thoughtheir issues come from slightly different backgrounds (btw, they are both quiteshitty at solving their problems). George, as a wealthy and powerful banker whois grandson of a blacksmith, does belong to neither aristocracy nor commonfolk,and isn’t actually being accepted by either of these groups. When it comes toTheon, he is neither fully a Stark nor fully a Greyjoy. His arc is more of anidentity arc than anything else, I would say. As a hostage in Winterfell, he isreally close to the Stark family (as he admitted himself, Robb was more of a brotherto him than Rodrick and Marron) but he’s not one of them and he always remainsa Greyjoy in the Northerners’ eyes (and apart from Robb, he is rather indifferentto other Starks, definitely not one of them). However, he’s been in Winterfellfor so long that he doesn’t fit the Iron Islands, too - and hence, hissupposedly glorious return in A Clash of the Kings is one huge disappointment for him.

As a direct result of this problem, Georgeand Theon are doing their best to “prove themselves” - Warleggan is tryingreally hard to become a member of aristocracy, and Greyjoy wants to showeveryone that he is a true Ironborn. With pretty unfortunate results. Theirmain problem is, though, that they are not people they’re pretending to be, andI think they both know it deeply in their hearts, so it becomes some sort of acomplex for them. In early season 2, when Demelza asks him what’s thedifference between being a miner’s daughter and a blacksmith’s grandson Georgeangrily responds that “she will always beminer’s daughter, while he is a gentleman”. And it is not the only timewhen George reacts very (let’s say)sensitively when somebody brings up thematter of his origin. I think this is because he knows that no matter how many times he’ll deny it, he will always beblacksmith’s grandson. It’s pretty similar in Theon’s case, and although I disagreewith statements that the Starks were/are his true family, many GoT characterstend to think so. However, I can’t deny that he is strongly attached to theStarks and is influenced by what he experienced in Winterfell. Yet even beforethat, when he was just a child, he was not a “typical” Ironborn, he was a shy,sensitive child.

Acceptance & isolation issues

Something strongly related to the pointabove. I already mentioned the problem of not being accepted by theNortherners/Greyjoys (Theon) or commonfolk/aristocracy (George). No matter howmuch Theon and George will try, and let’s face it: both of them, yet especiallyGeorge, do stuff that not only don’t help them but actually makes the problemworse, they will always remain somewhere inbetween. Theon will always be “thatStark hostage” or, even worse, “Starks’ dog” in Ironmen’s eyes, and George willalways be “that upstart (poodle)” in aristocracy’s eyes. 

Because of this acceptance problem thereappears an isolation problem, too. I find it quite striking how lonely Georgeand Theon are. In Theon’s case it may not be that obvious because of the maskhe wears (smiling a lot, etc.), but in my opinion there’s no doubt he IS lonely. In George’s case it’sactually both pretty ironic and interesting about the TV characterization ofhim, because he seems more introverted than Theon, but at the same time he shows his loneliness quite often – butin a subtle way. Even in public places a viewer can frequently spot him beingalone. Because of this loneliness, Theon and George have this one person theystrongly rely on psychologically – I’m talking about Robb Stark and ElizabethChynoweth-Poldark. I already mentioned how Theon treats Robb as his youngerbrother, and I will also say that I think Robb is also the closest personequivalent to a true family member he ever had. When it comes to George, hecares about Elizabeth very much, to the point of obsessiveness (one couldwonder, who is George more obsessed with: Ross or Elizabeth?), and she isactually the only person (at least as far as I remember, correct me if I’m wrong)he speaks openly to about how lonelyhe feels (“Loneliness is not one-sided,Elizabeth. A man may feel it, too”).

Difficult family relationships/(poor) interpersonalskills

This partially comes as a result ofidentity/acceptance problems, and partially affects the mentioned issues aswell. I will start with saying that George is an orphan in the show (we don’tknow when exactly he lost his parents, though) and while technically both BalonGreyjoy and Alannys Harlaw are alive (well, Balon dies in AFFC, but Theon stillgot to see him in ACOK), Theon is so isolated from them since he was takenprisoner that he basically don’t have parents, too. I assume he was quite closeto his mother when he was a child, but his relationship with Balon wasextremely cold and this never changed. So, as consequence to them not reallyhaving fathers, George and Theon’s personalities are shaped by father figuresthat are not exactly very positive for them – Cary Warleggan and Ned Stark (ohmy, I never thought I will be comparing Ned to Cary, but here I am).

Let me start with Cary. Even in thebooks it was noted several times that Cary has too big of an influence onGeorge, but I promised to stick with the show and so I will. From season 2 Caryhas been less and less significant character in George’s arc, but I’d say it’sstrongly visible how many of George’s actions are somehowinfluenced/strengthened by Cary in s1 (happened once or twice in s2 as well,but George is already very independent by that time and usually decides to dowhat he wants). Cary is really, really cold and pretty amoral (he gives offthis vibe of not having much empathy, if any) and seems to have no problemswith doing harm at all, when even George seems to hesitate. One of such momentsare when Cary is absolutely not moved by Julia Poldark’s death and literally raises a toast (!) for “Ross Poldark’sdownfall” after his little daughter’s death and dissolving Carnmore CopperCompany (note that George slightly raises his glass but doesn’t drink, anddoesn’t look happy in the slightest). To be honest, he doesn’t seem very closeto his nephew in emotional terms, too – they are more like business partnersthan relatives, and allow me to emphasize: before marrying Elizabeth Cary isthe closest family member George has; the onlyfamily member he has. Taking this into account, what kind of person George issupposed to be? In some aspects he is similar to his uncle – distant and cold,and where does he get it from? Again, we don’t know how old was George when hisparents died so we’re moving a little bit into a headcanon zone (at the sametime, we don’t know what Nicholas Warleggan was like, and it’s probable that hewas similar to Cary to a certain extent, they were brothers after all).Assuming it happened when George was a child/teenager – then Cary definitely had a strong influence onhis personality and perception of other people/emotions in general. Then,assuming it happened when George was in his late teens/early twenties, thatinfluence would be way less significant, but it doesn’t mean there would be noinfluence at all. George still could have tried to somehow “stick” to the onlyfamily member he has and sought for his approval, at least in how to deal with business and make investments.

Before I will explain similiaritiesbetween Cary/George relationship and Ned/Theon relationship, let me emphasizethat Cary and Ned are not the same. Eddard is loving to his family and capableof showing his affection, while Cary is not. Where I see a parallel is how Nedis cold towards Theon, and Theon isliterally quite scared of him, which does influence him negatively. Let mequote the books to present how Greyjoy felt about Ned Stark (bolded by me foremphasis):

“As if ten years in Winterfellcould make a Stark. Lord Eddard had raised him amonghis own children, but Theon had neverbeen one of them. The whole castle, from Lady Stark to the lowliest kitchen scullion, knew he was hostage to his father’s good behavior,and treated him accordingly. Eventhe bastard Jon Snow had been accorded more honor than he had.

Lord Eddard had tried to play the father from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the manwho’d brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. As a boy, hehad lived in fear of Stark’s stern face and great dark sword. His wife was,if anything, even more distant and suspicious.” (GRRM, A Clash of Kings, Theon I)

Or here:

“This was never my home. I was a hostage here. Lord Stark had not treated him cruelly, but the long steel shadow of his greatsword had always been between them.He was kind to me, but never warm.He knew that one day he might need toput me to death.” (GRRM, A Dance with Dragons, The Prince of Winterfell)

These quotes alsohighlight Theon’s acceptance problem pretty well, but let’s go back to therelationship issue. Theon was taken prisoner when he was, if I remembercorrectly, 9 years old and stayed there until he was 19. So, his teenage yearswere shaped by: a) being isolated from his parents; b) having “parent figures”that are distant and make him literally insecure; c) feeling isolated by hissurroundings. This is not a healthy environment for a growing child. Theon had,undoubtedly, far worse than George Warleggan (who at least did not feel thathis life was on threat), but what I see they have in common here is that theyboth hardly had someone to truly rely on, and if you don’t have support in yourown family (or what is close to your family), why should you expect suchsupport from others (that’s why George seems a bit paranoid at times, as ifeveryone was against him personally)? Therefore, they develop very poorinterpersonal skills.

Because they don’t havevery positive and supporting family relationships, they can’t create veryhealthy relationships with women (at least I believe this may be the case). Bythe way, I can’t unsee some similarities between Ros/Theon(show only) andMargaret/George relationships, but I guess it’s a discussion for another post. WhatI think they have again in common is that Theon has huge problems withdeveloping relationships with women other than having sex with them (it startschanging in ADWD, when he helps Jeyne Poole), and usually objectifies them.George technically doesn’t do that (he treats Elizabeth with huge courtesy),but disrespecting Demelza, in a sense, makes him feel superior (especiallysince he is technically a lowborn, too. Demelza just highlights his insecurityabout his origin) – he constantly calls her “a kitchen maid” and tells theguards in Bodmin that she is a harlot to prevent her from trying to save Rossfrom hanging. Theon doesn’t treat lowborn women well, too, and his insecuritiesprevent him from creating a long-lasting and loving relationship. George kindamanages to make that with Elizabeth, but their marriage (and pre-marriageperiod) is far from perfection – he can be obsessive and (sometimes, but still)manipulative, but then is gentle and loving.

Compensatory narcissistic personality disorder

Alright, I am not the most competentperson to discuss this, and @incblackbird wrote an amazing book in which shedescribed Theon’s formation of his identity and defense mechanism he uses, so Iwill be rather brief here. So, what Theon and George share psychologically isthat they are both hella insecure, and they try to hide it behind the mask ofarrogance (in the series it’s brilliantly acted by Alfie Allen and JackFarthing, I honestly think they make one of the most nuanced performances inthe show they’re in). In case of Theon it’s his “constant smile” (it’smentioned many times in the books), and in George’s – his general posture,especially how he tends to hold his chin very high and proudly. I love thescene in 1x08 when he’s going to Trenwith very quickly, silently crying, andthen he just stops and put his usual mask on, to hide his emotion and makeimpression of having full control over himself. Another scene when you can seehim “posing” is in s2 (episode 3, I believe?) when he’s “training” in front ofthe mirror.

Theon and George also seem to havesuperiority complex, often being expressed by them downplaying or hurtingothers to make them feel better. However read ASOIAF or seen GoT/Poldark knowwhat I’m talking about. ;)

Capability of doing terrible things

A side effect of what described above.Both of these characters did some really horrible things (and that’s mostly whythe fandoms dislike them), in order to prove themselves (esp. Theon) or getwhat they want (George trying to get closer to aristocracy). Theon definitelyregrets what he did, and in the show I get the impression that sometimes Georgedoes too, although he would never admit it (I think his behavior shows that hisconscience is not quite clear, he’s not Cary after all). To illustrate whatthey did I will give some examples: Theon abused Kyra (left her crying aftersleeping with her), turned on Robb and killed the farm boys and burned theirbodies, while George tried to have Ross hanged and forced Morwenna to marryWhitworth against her will.

Tendency to like “pretty things”

Alright, that’s the last thing :). Theonand George have, in a manner of speaking, quite interesting fashion sense, Imean that they like to wear/be surrounded by pretty things. This is noticed byBalon Greyjoy (probably other Ironborn too), Ross Poldark and aunt Agatha, andat the same time serves as a mean to highlight their identity problems – thatTheon is not fully a Greyjoy and George is not fully an aristocrat. Once again,allow me to use quotation from ASOIAF to show what was Balon’s reaction toTheon wearing jewellery:

“His father slid his fingers under thenecklace and gave it a yank so hard it was like to take Theon’s head off, hadthe chain not snapped first. “My daughter has taken an axe for alover,“ Lord Balon said. “I will not have my sonbedeck himself like a whore.” He dropped the broken chain onto thebrazier, where it slid down among the coals. “It is as I feared. The green lands have made you soft, andthe Starks have madeyou theirs.”(GRRM, A Clash of Kings, Theon I)

And now let’s compareit to George’s case. It’s a bit more visible in the books, but I promised tostick with the show and I’m going to keep my promise. ;) In 2x03, when Rossstarts a fight with George, George is wearing a ruby on his stock tie, and I maybe wrong, but I haven’t noticed any other male character in Poldark wearingjewellery on their stock ties. Obviously it was not the reason why Ross startedthe fight, but later in the same episode Andrew Blamey and Francis ask him forthe cause of this conflict, and he responds that he didn’t like his stock tie,which means that he noticed that anddidn’t like it (possibly reminded him of George being a nouveau riche, who’sricher than all Poldarks together). Another scene is George’s conversation withaunt Agatha she tells him:

“I remember the first time Francis brought you here! Fligged out in yourfrills and fallallery! (…)Velvets andsilks you wore. ‘Twas plain your mother had no taste.(…) And you, staring about like abull-calf that had strayed from its stall.”

That was the final one. :) I hope you are satisfied with my answer,anon! I know it’s very long, but I hope it’s at least a bit interesting!Obviously what I wrote here is by no means everything that can be said on thistopic and I’m pretty sure there’s something I missed. ;)