#my biggest criticism of datv

[unveiling-unguarding]

It's becoming exceedingly clear to me that the structure of Veilguard was compromised by the pivot away from live service. And I do empathize with the devs for trying to salvage what they could. In that vein, for all the problems I have with their writing and presentation, the companions, by and large, I found charming. I commend them for this.

And yet, nobody made them treat every conversation in act one as hardly anything more than a vehicle for exposition. Nobody made them write Bellara explaining what a damn dock is when you rock up to D'Meta's Crossing. Nobody made them introduce the Veil Jumpers, a supposedly major faction, in the most amateur way I've ever seen from a AAA rpg.

The things that disappoint me the most in this game are 100% self-inflicted. I've seen speculation that the turbulent dev cycle left little time for them to write anything but a 1st draft. It troubles me to think that any writer who does so for a living would even include such omnipresent, dry, and character agnostic exposition in even a rough draft. It drives me insane (the proof is that I created this blog, surely the greatest crime to come as a consequence of Dragon Age: The Veilguard).

[lizzybeeee]

It's just a minor thing, but I'm annoyed at how during those missives about the South falling they start pretending like Skyhold is the only safe place that any of the population can stay in, but like--Chateau Haine was also designed to hold a huge population of people in case of the Blight! This, and a method of getting large quantities of people there using makeshift "aravels", is something that was detailed in Last Flight! The book they heavily referenced for Davrin's mission! If they were going to treat Isseya the Way They Did, they could have at least referenced her ingenuity that rescued so many people before she went mad. It wouldn't have fixed all of it but it would have at least been a nice touch. Hell if they had let us say Hawke survived, they could be responsible for leading people there because they visited Chateau Haine and know about this. It could be another of those "South repelling the Blight" counter things I saw in one of your replies, like how it makes no sense for Orlais to not ally with Ferelden out of "paranoia" in a worldstate where Celene is in charge.

Isseya & Chateau Haine

Loving the idea of Hawke (or maybe even Talis if you didn't anger her!) leading survivors to Chateau Haine!!! That's what the retreat was built for, after all! Since it's connected to Isseya it would provide an in-game reason for the Chateau Haine/aravels to be brought up as well?

I would have loved for their to be more mentions of (pre-mad) Isseya and Garahel in the game - what we see and hear of Isseya is so limited beyond her being the 'griffon boogeyman'' which really does her no justice. While we do get some humanizing moments/dialogue with Davrin, the whole time I was wondering why she was here? Bringing her back just to make her relive her greatest regret - I can get why they chose her, 'thematically', but I thought she had such a satisfying conclusion in the Last Flight. :(

(Also what happened to her when you defeat her? She just lays down and dies? lmao.)

If anything, the entire 'Blighted Weisshaupt' feels like it would better suit the Architect/Awakened darkspawn as some dark reflection of the Grey Wardens? Which was what the Architect was doing in Awakening: the inverse joining ritual, darkspawn consuming blood of the wardens, etc... That entire area looked like it could have been part of Awakening.

2. Skyhold

I was also really puzzled about how Skyhold seems to be the only fortress capable of withholding the darkspawn according to datv? The moment I read that they had brought refugees to Skyhold - as some final refuge from the blight (since Redcliffe and Denerim have both fallen by the last missive) my heart dropped because Skyhold is, comparatively, tiny.

Obviously, BioWare had limitations with their resources/engine and made a Keep that was limited in scope - I know that logically. But Skyhold is no Theirinfall Redoubt, Redcliffe, or Chateu Haine! A new player won't know it's size - but I do! I jumped off every staircase and walkway - I know that place!!! Even in cutscenes it's not shown to be much bigger!

(It's a nitpick, I know, I'm sure there's some logistics/retconning that make this less fatalistic - but how grim is it to imagine that Skyhold, of all places, is somehow large enough to house Ferelden's remaining refugees?)

3. Celene & World States

Like you said about Celene, the idea that she suddenly had such a radical turnaround in her position on foreign relations/policies (for no reason provided outside of paranoia!) was genuinely baffling. I can see it happening for Gaspard or for a world state where all three were forced into a truce - but Celene alone???

In trying to be as vague as possible about the south, they only managed to make it more noticeable that they were avoiding mentioning specific people: 'The leaders of Ferelden' and 'Orlais' rulers'. At the same time they canonize events/people like Harding talking about Blackwall/Thom Ranier and Sera? Two characters you can not recruit?

Losing the DA Keep in this game was a damn shame. It could have been a great way to have past decisions we made come back meaningfully in showing how the south of Thedas can defend itself against the double blight. It's not even a new idea! The comment I made about a 'south repelling the blight' counter was based off of Mass Effect 3 and how they used the galactic readiness meter.

You got a series of messages/cameos relating to quests you did in previous games, with people pledging to help you in taking back earth...it was genuinely heartwarming and rewarding to see how a person I helped two games back came to help Shepard. Certain decisions also could really bite you in the ass and I loved seeing that! It could have been a great way to provide closure for what choices we made through letters/missives/dialogue - showing that our Warden, Hawke, and Inquisitor did made a difference.

(It would also be an incentive to play and buy earlier games - to get a better ending! Unlike datv which really gives no incentive to play previous entries in the series.)

Just off the top of my head:

Bhelen is King -> he allows casteless dwarves to fight the Blight and support the warriors.

Harrowmont is King -> he refuses to let casteless dwarves fight and half the warrior caste dies.

If the warden is a dwarf commoner -> you can have Rica lead a coup and depose Harrowmont, becoming Queen.

If the warden is a dwarf noble -> they kick Harrowmont out and install Gorim as King.

If Branka was left alive -> she goes crazy from the blight and creates red lyrium golems or something else horrifying. To stop the golems the dwarves have to abandon Ortan Thaig.

A Dagna who was supported in her studies manages to create some newfangled rune that helps hold the tide back and she becomes a paragon.

(I recently just finished a dwarf commoner playthrough so i have a lot of dwarven thoughts at the moment lmao)

Thanks for the ask! You got my brain going with this one! :)

[stinkrascal]

im gonna be unwell about this game for so long

[sundogsandrainbows]

Well said! It's interesting to see how the sentiment toward the game has shifted into negative by now where ppl were able to finish it. I see it on steam, youtube, da reddit... everywhere. Just as an observation. (If you like the game, I am happy for you, but this post is not for you, lmao)

I also feel sorry for the people who went in blind to start playing all the dragon age games in preparation to Veilguard's release. Like, just to give an example: I follow 2 women youtuber going through the series since VG's announcement in June (July? What is time 🙃) and one of them is in the latter half of Inquisition now, and the other has not started DAI yet. But since they both avoid any spoilers, they are fully unaware that none of their choices made and currently agonize over, and over endless hours of streaming and playing the games , at that, will matter and yeeeeeah. Gotta be a soul-crushing discovery to make, (certainly was for me and prematurely killed all interest for it i had) They might end up liking VG or not, no idea i am not in their heads lol, but they will also find out how spiteful current bioware is with the games that came before their soulless slop and they just finished/loved and yeah... gonna be 😬 😬 😬

And that where they are for all sense of purpose those garnered new players of the series, but one who played all the games. So I highly doubt they will appreciate having their worldstate and characters shat on and destroyed tbh. Same as for (us) longtime fans, of course.

So I really don't know who the fuck this scorched earth, 100% more illuminati shambling corpse, dumbed down, soulless full reboot with DA in ™ name only should be for next game (if there is one.) Because they effectively killed DA the series with Veilguard, then set it on fire and pissed on its ashes. Hope it was worth it for muuuuh neeew players, u shortsighted twats (EA included here, always included.)

I hope Bioware is happy about the flood of “I don’t care about this series anymore” “I regret any time I spent playing it” “I don’t want anything to do with this game or series” “I wish I didn’t have any merch/hadn’t ever spent my money on them” responses I’ve been seeing

Congrats on alienating like 75% of the playerbase for “new players” I guess??

Not sure how rebuilding a fan base from the ground up is going to work for them moving forward, especially since I can’t help but think new people who DO like Veilguard are going to go back to the other games and retroactively be like wait why… why did they just ignore all of this?

[felassan]

David Gaider on Kieran, under a cut for length:

"CHARACTERS - DAY TWO: Kieran (Technically this is an addendum to yesterday, but I make the rules here so nyah!) Heading into DAI, I had a bite-sized problem on my hands. I knew Morrigan would feature. I also knew we were importing previous choices. So now I had to contend with: the Old God Baby. Here's the thing about honouring previous game choices, from a design perspective: it's a sucker's game. What many fans picture, when you mention it, is divergent *plot* -- the story changes path based on those major choices. How exciting! But you will never be able to deliver divergent plot. You can deliver flavour differences (usually in the form of divergent dialogue), character swaps (character X appears instead of Y), and extra content (such as a side quest) -- but plot branching, particularly the critical path? It's a question of resources, and there's never enough to go around. "Here Lies the Abyss" in DAI was about as good as it gets, and even that was a far cry from how I originally pictured it (hello last-minute insert of Stroud when a DAO Warden import got cut). The Old God Baby was one of the main choices from DAO -- Morrigan has a baby? With the Archdemon's soul?! Most DAO players who flagged that choice surely expected *monumental* consequences. World-shaking consequences! And we talked about it. We did. There were, like, three different designs of the DAI ending where OGB Kieran could cause complete divergence: new path, cutscenes, the whole nine yards. But it wasn't going to happen. It was a decision from *two games ago* that only a small minority (hello telemetry) would even choose. To the rest, they probably neither knew about it nor cared... so how many resources could you invest? To do what? Set up an even bigger divergence for the NEXT game? The other writers acknowledged my anxiety with a grim nod every time it came up, but they had no solutions. Finally, I realized there WAS a solution, and that was changing how I thought about the choice: don't make it about Kieran. The players don't know him, never have. Make it about Morrigan. Thus began a feverish three days where I wrote probably the most complicated scene of my career: Morrigan's reckoning with Flemeth in DAI and the fallout after. Three different versions (OGB Kieran, non-OGB Kieran, and no Kieran), each with branching for other choices (like the Well of Sorrows). I did it all at once. There was no other way to wrap my head around the complexity of it. It was also a tough sell to the team, considering the amount of cinematics work, but they agreed we had to do *something*. And still it felt... underwhelming, insofar as divergence goes. But it was also good. I remember when I first spoke with Claudia, about how this was Morrigan's story. This was about how motherhood had changed her, how she'd grown up. Claudia got a bit teary-eyed. It was a journey she was familiar with, she said. Her first son, Odin, had been born in 2005 not long after DAO came out. And, man, she killed with that performance! Kate, too, but I'll get to her later. Claudia dug down, and that scene where Morrigan tells Flemeth she'll never be the mother Flemeth was to her? That came from someplace very raw. It was devastating to witness in the booth. There were tears all around. Not long after, Claudia called and asked if maybe - just maybe - Odin could play Kieran? He was a bit young (not yet 5, then), but it felt... right? We agreed. Claudia was in the booth, gently coaching him through his lines, and I think that was the first moment I felt I'd done the right thing."

[source thread]

User: "Do you find it an odd choice that Kieran hasn’t been mentioned at all in Veilguard?" David Gaider: "If there’s less reactivity in DATV, I’m unsurprised. Continuing choice from up to 3 games earlier is… unsupportable. Yet DA established the expectation they would so… damned if you do, damned if you don’t?" [source]

User: "EA is one of the biggest game companies ever. I don't think more complex diverging plots are impossible." David Gaider: "Well, if only more writing was all it took. Sadly, it's also cinematics. Art time for all those reappearing characters you probably want to look *just* right. And let's not forget we have to test all those permutations! So I don't disagree with you in spirit, but I don't think it's the answer here." [source]

User: "is there a possibility of future kieran appearances in a book or something similar outside of the games?" David Gaider: "I'd have no way of knowing that." [source]

User: "I’m actually shocked so little people chose the dark ritual. That was basically the main reason Flemeth sent Morrigan with the wardens, no?" David Gaider: "The impression you get of what "most" players do - in almost any game, not just DA - is very different if you're online a lot. Consider here that it's not just the % of DAO players who chose the Dark Ritual, it's the % of DAI players WHO PLAYED DAO and cared to import that choice 5 years later." [source]

User: "Is there anything you wish you had done differently, in hindsight?" David Gaider: "Probably just to not ever do importing choices between games in the first place." [source]

User: "Kieran only existed in my DAI state b/c Morrigan as a mother really appealed to me. I wasn't expecting to be devastated by those scenes 😭 I guess when we complain about lack of consequences from prev choices in DAV we must also ask how MUCH are we willing to pay for those branches to exist?" David Gaider: "That's indeed it. Content directed towards reactivity would have to come from somewhere else. So essentially a shorter game overall for the sake of those hardcore fans who'd import - who would, I imagine, REALLY enjoy that... but it's a tough cost/benefit analysis to make." [source]

User: "mr gaider im gonna keep it real with you if i had to choose between my hof and hawke i would've simply passed away" David Gaider: "Right? That was the ENTIRE idea! I was very excited, and for a while it seemed possible." [source]

User: "This has been a very interesting read but I have to ask why they decided to use Stroud instead of the HoF" David Gaider: "1) Complexity of providing means for a player to build a Warden (which they did in DATV for the Inquisitor). Also spoiled the surprise. 2) We’d have needed to give the Warden a voice. Add these to the cost and it was deemed not worth it." [source]

User: "Genuine question, not a critique - but what made the OGB decision one that couldn't be handwaved as canon no matter what was or wasn't chosen? Leliana and Flemeth being around no matter what come to mind. Was OGB simultaneously too major and too minor of a decision?" David Gaider: "Flemeth and Leliana being alive were easily explainable, and we knew we were doing it even back then. Circumventing the Dark Ritual… that would be too cheap. We did talk about it, but it just felt too dishonest. Too high a price for what we’d get in return." [source]

David Gaider: "If I’d known the Well of Sorrows would only see reactivity in the confrontation with Flemeth, I’d probably have made a much bigger deal of it." [source]

David Gaider: "We could maybe have gotten past the need to "reconstruct" the Warden, much like the Inquisitor was reconstructed in DATV (so I understand), but the need to give the Warden a voice was the final nail. Too potentially disappointing for the very people who'd be excited about it, aside from the cost." [source]

[simpforsolas]

So I've seen a some discussion of people both criticizing and defending the DATV companions for being nice to each other. And I think the arguments from both sides are being a little bit misconstrued, which is honestly understandable. I think that often when something bothers us in fiction, it's hard to put into words exactly what it is. So as we try our best to express ourselves, it may not end up getting to the point of what the issue actually is (this is also why it can be tough for writers to properly address criticism - the readers providing the criticism might not be accurately diagnosing the root of the problem, so their attempts to fix it are shallow and don't actually address the issue).

Now I obviously don't speak for everyone, but I do think that a good amount of the people saying they want the DATV crew to be meaner don't actually mean they literally just want people to be rude and insulting each other for no reason. I think it boils down to three things that the new crew was missing:

Inability to really feel how the companion's backstories form their unique worldview

Lack of conflict between companions

Limited relationship dynamics between Rook and the companions

Inability to feel how companion's backstories form their worldview

In previous Dragon Age games, the characters frequently discussed and argued topics of philosophy, faith, politics, and beliefs. They came from all different backgrounds. You had Morrigan, a hedge mage raised to believe in self-preservation, teaming up with an Andrastian circle mage and former templar. Their beliefs and worldviews are, at their core, at odds with each other. The game doesn't necessarily try to make you believe one way or another, it simply drops you into the world and allows you to interact with these character, see their interactions with each other, and draw your own conclusions. In Dragon Age Inquistion, you have Cole, a spirit of compassion, teaming up with Vivienne, who believes the circle teachings that spirits are demons and want to possess people, and Sera, who represents the perspective of the common people that are afraid of all things magical or fade-related. You have Solas, a staunch individualist who believes in freedom for all, Cassandra, a faithful Andrastian who follows her own inner compass even when at odds with the institution of the Chantry, and Iron Bull, a Ben-Hassrath agent who believes in the Qun not because he's a philosopher and has decided that's what works best, but because that's how he was raised and so far, the Qun has worked for him. So in previous Dragon Age titles, you have people whose worldviews and beliefs are fundamentally at odds with each other, and whose actions and dialogues are a direct result of those beliefs. Veilguard really downplayed the importance of religion in Thedas, which isn't necessarily a problem in and of itself. In DA2, the only companion with strong religious beliefs is Sebastian. However, you had Anders who believed strongly in mage liberation, Fenris, who believed strongly in the dangers of magic, and Isabela, whose lack of belief and lack of respect for religion/beliefs led to one of the game's biggest conflicts. Discussion of religion and philosophy was always a huge part of the Dragon Age games, so when they almost entirely removed that element and didn't replace it with other types of belief that could lead to meaningful differences of opinion, we were just left with nothing of substance to really talk about. This isn't saying that the companions don't have things they believe in, but it's just not the same as characters from previous games. In general, their backgrounds don't form a unique worldview that results in differences of opinions and interesting conflict. Which brings my to my next point:

Lack of conflict between companions

There's a huge spectrum between "everyone is friends and always gets along" and "everyone hates each other and is happy when their ally is sold into slavery." In fact, fans often get really into fictional relationships that have quite a bit of conflict. Speaking for myself, I love relationships where two people may fight or disagree, but they truly care for one another and would willingly put themselves in harm's way to protect one another. So I think when a lot of people say the companions get along too well, they don't necessarily mean that they want them to all hate each other (maybe some do). They mean that they just want there to be interesting interpersonal conflicts. (I personally would love for a companion pair to argue a lot, but when it comes down to it, they actually really care about each other) Why do we want this? Well first, conflict just makes things more interesting. But I think that it also ties into point 1. In this game, the companions simply don't seem passionate enough about what they believe to argue for it, or, if they are, there's not anyone who challenges their beliefs and forces them to defend their position. I would say that Emmrich is very passionate about his love for spirits and necromancy, two things which are seen as weird and dangerous by most people in Thedas. However, there's almost no chance for him to passionately argue for his worldview because no one challenges it. There is that one scene with Taash finding his passion for working with the dead creepy, but as soon as the issue comes up, it's resolved. Compare that to Solas, where a big part of his characterization is love for spirits and frustration with fear and ignorance leading people to discriminate against what they don't understand. Having to face opposition to his beliefs, both in the world and within the inquisitor's inner circle (and sometimes the inquisitor themself), gives the writers the opportunities to emphasize core parts of his characterization.

On a final note for this section, it's just more interesting when different pairs of companions have unique relationships with each other. Solas and Cole's wholesome, mostly conflict-free friendship is made sweeter because you can compare it to Solas and Sera's relationship. It makes the relationships more meaningful when you can contrast it to how those same people click or don't click with other companions.

Limited relationship dynamics with Rook

The final issue I want to talk about is how all this ties into Rook. In previous games, you could learn a lot about a character's beliefs by seeing what they approved and didn't approve of. Anders approves of supporting mages, Fenris doesn't. Leliana approves of compassion for strangers, Morrigan doesn't because why should she help people who can't help themselves, and also it's a waste of time. Cole greatly approves of helping people, Solas slightly approves of you asking questions, Cassandra approves of expressing belief in the Maker, and so forth and so on. Then depending on the choices you make, your approval actually makes a difference in how these companions view you as their leader. But in Veilguard... well either the companions don't have strong feelings about things, or Rook isn't allowed to make decisions that oppose the beliefs they do have. Because of this, there's basically no conflict between Rook and the team. From my understanding, worst relationship you can get with the team is "distant boss whose employees don't invite them to their work parties," but that's not the same as Cassandra hating you so much she gets drunk or getting specific rival scenes like in DA2 where companions react entirely differently because Hawke consistently acted in opposition to their beliefs.

Final thoughts

So when people criticize the companions not getting along, I think it's less to do with the fact that people want them to hate each other, and more to do with the fact that we want companions who have a strong worldview shaped by their backstory, and for that worldview being challenged to lead to interesting conflict. Whether that challenge comes from other companions, the world, or Rook themself, I don't care - I just want interesting and meaningful conflict that is arises because the companions are strong characters who believe in something.

[housederiva]

Everybody has a lot of valid criticisms for datv. My biggest criticism is how rook opens doors. They open every door like they're those big double ones and it pisses me off every time. just use the door handle please rook im begging you

It's mainly how Rook opens single doors for me, with double doors I can let it go but baby why are you pushing from the centre when there's only one panel (I'm saying this with a joking tone btw)

[revvethasmythh]

I do think it's funny seeing people talk about the romances in datv and how you have to make an effort and actually connect with your intended romance partner for it to work when, for me, my biggest criticism of romancing Cullen in inquisition was that it literally didn't matter what I did or the kind of person that i was. I could just press the button and start a romance with him whenever, without even an approval system to marginally limit things. In fact, I STILL have the option to start up a romance with him in my current playthrough despite being fully locked in a romance with someone else. Incidentally, the opposite of this is perhaps what made me like the Fenris romance the most--it took effort and intentionality on my part for that to happen, which made the pay-off so much better. So, tbh, i'm glad it sounds like we won't be in a situation like with the advisors again where you can romance then regardless of anything. I want that effort and intentionality and care put into a relationship, if one is going to happen

[pondering-gales-left-orb]

Once again I'm asking you guys to be fucking normal about the Qunari and Qun

I keep hearing "the Qun is a prison the Qun is poison the Qun followers the Qunari are evil"

Which makes me really sad, people are not thinking about why the Qunari are the way they are especially now that we know a little more about how they came to be

So please stop for a second and think critically with me (spoilers from DATV will be mentioned below)

With everything we know about how the Qunari came to be it gave us a small window into how the Qun came to be too: this is my theory and headcanon ofc nothing official

What we know is that the Kossith were running from something so terrible so terrifying and impossible (the devouring storm) that the only way out someone could come up with is to mix their blood with dragon blood to create the Adaari

Read that again the only way to stay alive and be able to face this evil is to mix their blood with the biggest scariest monster known to Thedas: a Dragon

How terrified were they? How insane was the threat they were running from? how does facing such Events change a person? In my opinion, it would stay with them forever and change everything about how they live, everything they are, and all their senses evolve to become a tool to prepare for the inevitable day that terrifying threat finds them again. I see it as the same as how human senses have evolved long ago to be attuned to many aspects of nature like our field of vision the position of our eyes our sensitive hearing and how we can "sense" danger and get Goosebumps and so much more, all evolved and became fine-tuned tools to help us survive whatever threat that we faced and whatever was hunting us

I think the Qun was written by a petrified Koslun, scared of what they saw and in disbelief at the fact that they survived, his entire being became how to help his people prepare for this threat, it is why he is Ashkaari Koslun, or "the one who seeks or thinks".

Let's think together though, seeks what exactly? Think of what? In the Warden's case they are called Ashkaari because they were able to seek Asaala in all of fereldan and bring it to Sten, and then Iron bull was called Ashkaari because he always thought of a way to get out of following the rules

So what about Koslun? The most direct answer is "well he thought of the Qun duh!" but i partly disagree, the Qun is the answer yes but my thing is he didn’t "think" of the Qun, he didn’t just write it one night while pondering or something , my thing is he actually "sought" the way of the Qun, he sought out a way to help his people, newly transformed people survive, prepare and change in order to be able to stand against the devouring storm, and not become erratic like the dragons. He traveled far and wide and meditated for a way out of this fear.

now you see where the idea of balance and soul come in in order to keep their soul calm and continue preparing for the devouring storm they must all find a purpose of their soul and nurture it, accept nature as it is a force that gives and takes, because in my opinion, Ashkaari Koslun thought that if any of them started wanting more from life, that mirrors the dragons desire to hoard and devour which puts his people at risk of losing sight of preparing for this evil, he thought if they lost focus they won't see it coming and will be lost forever, that is what the Qun is to me, the conclusion a terrified Koslun sought in the world on how to overcome the devouring storm.

And now (to me at least) it makes sense why the Qun is so strict and military like and why to lead them you have to be strong willed enough to step up and say you want to lead

And now the Qunari we know, they have inherited their ancestors fear, they don't know what they are scared of anymore that information was lost and locked behind tablets that are only unlocked by Adaari fire, the tome of koslun being in orlais for a long time and the Adaari being kept a secret, that knowledge is lost but it's still there in their bones and its why they don't allow any interference from the outside to change them (until now)

In DATV the shock of losing most of the Antaam akin to losing a part of their soul, I'm pretty sure re-awakened that deep primal fear, that qunandar was now without a protector but the loss it also kind of woke them up and shocked their system and made them see past their fear making them accept the return of the Qunari who left and promising they will not reprimand them etc. This is a good start for them to move on

Idk what the next game will be about (or if it's ever made) and i don't trust EA or the Writers not to continue being extremely racist towards the Qunari But i truly believe if they do it right we might finally see what actually happened and how this whole thing came to be and what that terrifying threat that drove them to a strict distraction free life is, i know i want to know at least and i cant help but be hopeful i just really love the Qunari okay

[eluviansandevanuris]

And there’s the comedown.

I have to admit I got a bit caught up in the high of seeing very positive reviews, now I’m feeling a bit more weary.

Don’t get me wrong I’m still going to likely buy it, but that may be later than I thought. I’m going to wait to see what everyone else says and get some honest opinions.

The thing that really worries me is Skill up’s criticism on lack of meaningful choices and lack of truly meaningful character moments. My biggest complaint with Andromeda was how it little it felt like your choices mattered and the lack of a strong vision for Ryder. I love those moments in ME or DAI where your choices make a companion love or depise you. I love being a renegade in ME or a shit disturber in DAI and it really sounds like those moments aren’t there in DATV.

Remember how in DA2 Fenris and Anders were at each others throats and it really felt like walking a knife’s edge with either of them? I want that in DATV and it sounds like I might not be getting that sadly.

I’m still hopeful, but I am considerably more cautious with that hope than I was 6 hours ago.

Also I feel like I should add that I checked both channels and they are full of solid professional reviews, because my god are the bigots losing their mind over this game and I wanted to make sure these channels were not among their number.

[mtreebeardiles]

It’s kinda wild to me how vastly different people’s interpretation of characters can be sometimes

“They made Harding basically a twelve year old girl” …really? I think my biggest criticism of her characterization in DATV is she’s a little too motherly at times. And even then, I GET IT. Her protectiveness, her need to **be** the protector makes a lot of sense in context. She just lost a friend she’s known for over a decade, her last tangible connection to the life she’d been leading for the past ten years, and she’s struggling with survivor’s guilt and ‘what ifs.’ ‘What if I had just taken that shot, what if I had just acted faster, what if I’d just made him LISTEN, would my friend still be here?”

“She used to be rough and tumble” is… is she not? There’s a whole scene with Emmrich that suggests otherwise? And nothing else to indicate this apparent shift in personality?

Are butch women not allowed to be cutesy

[goddevouringserpent]

some rambling thoughts about A Certain Videogame that is releasing soon (largely game-neutral and fandom-negative)

because. listen. there are a lot of things that I could criticise Dragon Age for. Inquisition was my biggest disappointment in gaming, even bigger than BG3 because with BG3 I was on the "I expected nothing and was still let down" mindset, whereas with DAI I was genuinely looking forward to it & felt like they did not deliver on any of the promises they made. there are a lot of things they have handled poorly. the ongoing plot about the elven gods is extremely unsatisfying & feels like a total cop-out and a loss of what made the world interesting in the first place.

but some people are approaching their criticism the wrong way IMO. because—alright I don't want to get into drama with anyone or bring drama to anyone so I won't be screenshotting OP's URL here, but this statement is just. outrageously ridiculous.

uh. no? it really is not that easy??? where are these texts coming from, pray tell? that shit doesn't sprout from the ground fully-formed. who's writing them? who's voicing them (unless we're meant to assume that you want all reactivity to be contained within codex entries)? even for interactive fiction games, where literally all you have is writing with no voice work or mocap work or whathaveyou involved, keeping track of these variables is extremely tough and time-consuming work. (source: I am writing one. unpublished as of yet, but I am writing it.) this is such a weirdly reductionist way of approaching the topic, especially in light of what we know has been going on at BW—they fired a large portion of the writers, including Mary fucking Kirby (which should be more concerning to us as players than a lack of reactivity, btw), there's clearly Issues going on there that encompass the whole company, there's a lack of funding or at least severe issues with how they're handling their funding, there's a lack of care for the people who have worked there for decades, etc etc.

is the lack of reactivity a problem? yeah I guess? maybe? but not for the reasons OP is saying, and it most definitely cannot be solved in the way OP is proposing. reactivity isn't a switch you turn on or off. and a reactivity like OP mentions would just make the world feel wide but shallow; things are acknowledged, but nothing comes out of them. there's a throwaway line of text, and that's that. because the alternative involves branching paths, cameos, different solutions to quests or different dialogue trees, etc etc, all of which is, again, a LOT of work, it's not something an intern can pull off in a day.

and like. alright. not to play devil's advocate here because I am, by and at large, hugely disenchanted with this franchise, and although I will be playing DATV (not that they'll be seeing a cent from me lol) just out of curiosity and sunk cost fallacy, I do not have high hopes for it. BUT.

Origins released in 2009. DA2 released in 2011. Inquisition—the latest entry in the franchise—released in 2014. that's a whole fucking decade in-between the third and fourth installments. and something that I think a lot of people online fail to understand is that the vast majority of gamers do not engage in fandom-type activities. we are a minority. a loud, outspoken minority, but a minority in the end. a LOT of people just play the game for what it is, then shelf it and don't think about it until the next one comes out (if it ever does). in this context I think that "making great use of the medium" would fall more along the lines of making sure there is proper reactivity within the game itself—meaning: let's NOT have another "human NPC humansplains Dalish history to my Dalish elf protag" moment—and not making callbacks to games from 10+ years ago, because. guys. we have to accept it. a LOT of the people who are gonna be playing this game won't have played DAO/DA2, or even DAI. a LOT of the people who are gonna be playing this game won't remember shit about the previous games. because a decade has passed. (if we're counting from DAI. otherwise we're looking at 15 years.)

especially when people start complaining about stuff like "what do you MEAN the choice of who we left in the Fade isn't relevant"—we were told that person's not coming back. like I could understand being upset at, IDK, your Inquisitor's romance choice (which btw does seem like their way of catering to the fandom part of the playerbase, but I digress) being more relevant than who is currently ruling Orlais, but if you're upset about the Fade thing you only have yourself to blame. we've known for years that character's Not Coming Back. the devs were very straightforward about that. ultimately it's not their fault if you've headcanoned your way around that statement. which like, don't get me wrong, I am all for headcanons, but when you have a headcanon you need to accept the fact that canon probably will contradict it eventually. your city now but also don't expect the devs to buy building permissions in your city, y'know?

but yeah. as I was saying. 10-15 years. most of the choices are gonna mean absolute jack shit to new (and a lot of returning!!) players, so at a certain point it makes sense that they had to make, like, a strategic choice of what to include and what to set aside. and of course it's a bummer for those of us who have been playing since DAO! I wanted mentions of my HOF, of Kieran, etc etc, there's a lot that makes me go "aww man". but also I think that people need to start acknowledging the fact that ultimately there are limits to what can and can't be done within the frame of one game that is being released, again, 10 years after the previous entry.

I mean tbh at this point I feel they'd be better served by having their next game be the first installment of a completely new franchise / IP. I can understand why they didn't make that choice. but it feels they'd be better off that way. having to deliver cameos and reactivity to Every Single Goddamn Choice Made In 3 Games The Oldest Of Which Is 15 Years Old is kind of a Sisyphean task that bogs the actual game down IMO

[mistwalkers-menagerie]

I don't think you're being negative. Having valid criticism for something you otherwise love doesn't equal hating or being needlessly negative.

As I'm playing, doing certain side quests centered around Solas lore, I can't help but feel a bit hollow myself. On one hand it's really enjoyable, on the other I feel like The Veilguard should've broken tradition to be a more direct sequal to Inquisition (despite loving my Rook to bits). Obviously I'm extremely biased as that's my favorite game of all time and I'm very attached to my Inquisitor and his journey.

Anyway, if not a direct sequal, maybe a subdivision under the Inquisition. It being disbanded or not could've affected the story. Because back then I thought that decision would carry weight, that the Well of Sorrows carried weight.

It should've had more of the past companions as NPCs; people who knew Solas, for us to witness exposition and the new revelations from their perspective. Yeah, we had Varric, as an afterthought almost. But because the devs decided they want a clean slate, all the insane exposition is rushed and as you've said, there's not enough nuance to it.

Everyone just accepts that the Evanuris are rampaging. No one tries to make sense of it. The controversy around the Inquisitor's title as Herald have been a constant debate throughout the game. So was Corypheus, everyone dreaded Corypheus and what he represented, the questions his existence raised. There were a ton of codex and conversation about the world's opinions.

The Veilguard on the other hand feels utterly isolated from Thedas.

What do you mean the Elves are just like "well, my gods are evil, that sucks". Why isn't there a quest - hell, an arc - centered around the Elves coming to terms? And the Chantry is not in this at all so far? I'm not a Chantry fan or anything, but what do you mean none of the human political factions and the biggest human religious organization have anything to say about the situation?

We don't know how the world reacted. We don't know shit.

I know DATV went through a rough development, that's not new to BioWare sadly. But it should've handled the past games - especially DAI - with more care and respect. Because despite being compelling and enjoyable, the story still doesn't feel quite right.

Ok, as much as I have been hyping and playing 12 hours a day since it got out (still in Act 1 though, bc I'm a slowass player and completionist), I feel like I have to say something that is getting hard to ignore at this point... and I wanna preface this by saying that I am loving a lot of aspects of the game and I adore the writing when it comes to the companions, who I am obsessed with.

And maybe this will get better yet, as I generally heard the writing picks up once the story progresses beyond picking up all companions..

But I'm starting to get quite upset at the way the writing just does NOT care about the established lore and the politics of Thedas like at all, when to me - and many others - that richness, nuance and depth of the world is what makes the games so special.

(Spoilers below)

I looked past the way the elves in Arlathan just seemed to know that their gods are evil and Solas is "kind of a dick" but was right about that. When, you know, that made him basically the Satan of their pantheon up to now.. It was after all the tutorial stage of the game and I understand that you wanna ease newcomers into the lore. I could also handwave it in-universe with Morrigan being there - she could have filled the Veiljumpers in on the discoveries of the Inquisition or even what the Well told her.

It felt a bit weird that our contacts in every other faction just accepted this huge revelation without a blink, but again it was the early stages and I also get that having a discussion about it 6 times with different faction leaders would have been incredibly tedious. So I ignored that. And yeah, at least the First Warden found it hard to swallow.

The fact that they brushed aside the gods finding elven subjects - many of whom after all still worship them - with one sentence from Solas was disappointing though. Instead they chose to ally them with the Venatori and the Antaam who are the pure evil factions with no nuance or motive to side with them besides a comic book level of hunger for power. They didn't even throw in a sentence about the gods maybe speaking to the Venatori through the Archdemons to get them on their side or how it's very ironic that the Venatori, who want to make Tevinter great again, stoop to working with the pantheon of the people they oppress because they see them as lesser and other. No political exploration of the massive lore implications at all.

It really hit me when I picked up Davrin and he commented how Elgar'nan and Ghilan'nain blighting the world would really endear us (elves) to the rest of Thedas - this was the first time anyone actually mentioned the political impact of the elven gods being real, freed, evil and blighted on modern day elves at all, when this should be HUGE. It should be ugly. It should be complex. It should be explored in as many examples as bloodmagic and the oppression of mages was in DA2. It should be a central point of Act 1. (This btw made me love Davrin so much in that moment because this was the first time in the game for me when I actually felt like talking to a Dragon Age elf and even just that one line felt like home.)

And now I just did Taash's first companion quest and it seems Qunari lore is also being ignored (except for the gender aspect of it, which I look forward to). Taash's mum was a scholar and had a baby and the only problem about that was that it could breathe fire and was special but otherwise all would have been dandy? Like she would have just been allowed to keep Taash long enough to find that out about her baby if she was living under the Qun? That directly contradicts everything we know about how the Qunari's culture around reproduction and childcare works.

Sorry to be negative and talking myself into a rage - I know it's not something people want to see rn. But like, I realise you have to brush over some lore intricacies for brevity and to make it digestible for new players. But this is a world initially inspired by Wheel of Time and ASOIAF, both of which are interesting because of the depth of ficitional cultures, lore and politics, and hence it's also what gives Dragon Age its appeal. And now they take us to the most politcally interesting areas on the world map and just get rid of all of political depth?

That's really disappointing. Imagine if Winds of Winter dropped all political themes just because there's several previous books and it's been some a lot of years.

Also, I managed to play DA2 before I ever played Origins and they could introduce me to a vast established background of lore just fine back then.

Sorry. Rant over. But I had to get that out of my system.

[wutaijiemei]

u know i rolled my eyes at first at ppl bemoaning the lack of gray morality in datv bc i think most of the series' intentional attempts at depicting that were always a shitshow seeing as how the worlds foremost social issues [presuming we all agree that they are circles and literal slavery.] are not morally ambiguous at all yet throughout 1-3 they seem to constantly imply that maybe they could be so its not like i think this isnt a fair criticism of datv it is an extremely un-nuanced game i just think it's funny to imply the rest of the series was ever that much better HOWEVER to me the biggest loss of nuance is not the part where they seem to have dropped the is racism bad question like a hot potato but rather the smaller things that i never really processed as moral ambiguity bc it just read as competent writing more than anything but now i miss it like the way that each companion is aligned with some kind of organization which ok whatever but the fact that none of them have issues with said organizations including two that you had companions fleeing from in prev games but now they are just Good Guys and you do not talk about that any further and all of the datv characters are just completely lacking in conflicts with their backgrounds in any meaningful way past like interpersonal issues with specific individuals that say nothing about the actual world lol

[tytoalbatross]

tumblr fucked one of my reblogs so i guess i'll paraphrase it here. datv does feel like someone took the dragon age lore and sanded it reallllll down. i guess it works for the hero's journey story it wants to tell, but it also makes the world feel flat and one-note. there's not much political complexity to speak of, and even in da:i (unfortunately the only other da game i own) i was amazed by the level of depth in politics, morality, and religion. and it wasn't afraid to slap you in the face with the corruption and inherent violence of having power. i really hope i enjoy the rest of datv regardless, because there ARE things i like about it, but this is my biggest criticism of the game

definitely think that character interactions are going to be decent in this game... the writing's started to even out on characters like bellara and neve, and the two of them just had a pretty cute scene together