#murderdock meta

[murdockmeta]

Matt's Protective Tendencies Regarding Gwen

So, for this post, I want to focus on three moments (cause with that many this is still gonna be too long aha) that stuck out to me on my second read-through. It's important to note these examples because Matt's relationship with Gwen is the closest we get to seeing him caring about anyone or anything.

Matt threatening George Stacy

This one is the most complex of the three. There are many layers to this scene but I think it's telling how Matt makes Gwen the center of the conversation. Also, he resorts to personal attacks on George's ability to protect Gwen and be a good father to her.

Matt does seem controlled in this scene to a certain extent, clearly there with the intention to taunt George, but I think he's... not as controlled as he appears.

This is the first time in the run we've really seen him use a more hands-on approach. So far, he's used legal loopholes, threats, manipulation, and so on. He's dodged (quite literally in some cases) every chance at a physical altercation.

Here, he shows up in relatively casual clothes (another interesting choice. the only time we ever see this.) and he eventually ends up holding George Stacy in a chokehold over the side of a building.

In the previous panel he's in, he's meditating when he's contacted by George. He picked up his phone on the second ring (not the first, despite how obvious the disruption is. hes trying to give the impression of nonchalance). He goes through the efforts of pretending to not know who's calling even though he definitely does.

When we see him again, it appears as though he's only changed his shirt before showing up at George's house. It's not the next day, it's probably not even an hour later. He was waiting for George to call. I'd be tempted to say he was growing impatient.

He starts with cheap attacks on George's morality and his job, petty things. It very quickly escalates.

Frank Castle had recently proven to be quite a threat to Gwen. Castle wants to kill Spider-Woman. Matt is refusing to let that happen. But, he wants George to be the one to make the call.

He's very dedicated to protecting Gwen but he also needs Gwen to trust him a tiny bit. He knows that if he outright kills Frank that Gwen would lose all faith in him. She would drop contact immediately and refuse to work with him again.

Yet, he's so persistent about protecting her, he goes to George to try and get him to do it. Matt wants Frank dead. Out of the equation. He's willing to physically threaten George, to get angry, to show maybe just a little too much of himself. He's trying every personal attack he can. And in his desperation to force George's hand, he reveals a lot about his motives. Even George picks up on this.

George is talking about what he thinks he sees in Matt. He thinks Matt killing Frank outright would show how bad Matt is, how cold and immoral he is, therefore losing Gwen's willingness to work for him. When really, it shows how dedicated and desperate Matt is. Matt cannot-- cannot-- lose Gwen. He needs her because for the first time since he was a child he has the chance to no longer feel alone.

He needs his plan to work. He can't have Frank mess it up but he also can't push Gwen too far away from him. So, he does all of this instead.

This is one of the most interesting goddamn lines in the whole scene. This is in the middle of Matt's attempt to attack George's ability to be a good father, his ability to protect Gwen. In that, Matt lets this slip out.

He's obviously projecting himself onto Gwen. And I also think he projects his relationship with Jack onto George but that's a discussion for another post.

So, does he think he's protecting Gwen from becoming like him? Making the hard decisions so she doesn't have to? He acts like he wants Gwen to become as bad as he does but even Gwen says in the end: he wanted to lose, he wanted to be caught. So...? We know he hates himself. And with the above line, we see the closest Matt ever gets to admitting how he truly feels to someone he lets live.

Gwen's different because Gwen represents a chance for things to go right. Matt needs to protect her because he needs her to succeed.

2. Matt refusing Gwen's apology

I was going to just highlight his first few lines in this panel but the whole thing seemed relevant to this post.

So, when I first read this line, I thought it was borderline out of character. He, of course, can't just refuse her apology, he has to give some self-centered reason why. But, everything he follows up with unintentionally reveals his hand once again.

To Gwen, Matt's reasons sound selfish and cruel. She thinks he just wants to use her, control her. She thinks he's interested in what she can do for him. And, well, he is. But it's never just that.

He wants her safe. He plainly says it. He wants her safe so that he can make sure she's not in danger, to make sure she doesn't die or make any decisions she's going to genuinely regret.

I think Matt's heavy-handedness in regard to Gwen's morality is extremely intentional. You don't change someone's mind about their personal morals by telling them how ridiculous their morals are all day. You don't change their mind by trying to force them to make deals they rather wouldn't. Arguably, that's how you make them stand their ground.

And I think that's what Matt's counting on. He sees it as a win-win, whether Gwen ends up turning evil or not (because if she does then he can finally die). But really... I think he wants her to have a reason to be good. He knows how hard-headed she is, it's one thing he likes about her. So, he knows that antagonizing her will just make her more assured when she comes out on the other side.

If she can stick through to the end and beat him, there's not much that can stop her after that. One important thing about Gwen's development as Spider-Woman is that at the beginning, she doesn't have the strong conviction to do good that 616 Peter has due to his uncle's death.

Peter died in her universe, but it didn't serve the same purpose. She felt guilt over Peter's death, but not the kind that strengthened her morals. It was this crushing guilt that dragged her down, made her lose faith in herself. A lack of confidence like that can quickly lead down a much darker path and we see that in Gwen throughout volume two.

She still needs that push. That final act that'll let her come into her purpose fully. And Matt intends on giving that to her if she's willing to go along with his plan long enough. He crafts himself into a big, bad villain for her. Just so she can be good.

3. Matt protecting Gwen's identity

Matt goes out of his way to make sure Gwen's identity stays safe. He knows her secret identity is important to her. He made sure he tied up his loose ends with Toomes so he wouldn't tell.

The one that's more interesting to me is the fact he didn't even tell his ninja her name. These ninja are assigned to protect her from any harm while they are in a foreign country and an assassin is after Gwen. But Matt doesn't bother giving them her name.

There's not even really a reason for him not to tell them other than him being overly protective of her. It's not like they're going to tell anyone, they're fucking ninja. They're sworn to secrecy out of pure principle.

Yet, Matt doesn't say anything. He could've even used it as a bargaining chip but he doesn't genuinely threaten to reveal her identity even once. Would it have really even affected his plans long term? Her identity is revealed at one point, and he still gets what he wants in the end.

But he never brings it up unless it concerns her identity being revealed in a way that may harm her. He never dangles it in her face. He respects it and protects her.

---

These are just a few moments I wanted to talk about. Honestly, the George Stacy one could've been its own post and I'll probably end up making another about it eventually.

Matt is so multifaceted and he shows that best with the people he dares to form attachments to. The main one being Gwen. The way he treats her is the closest he got to caring about someone. It's the closest we get to seeing what he's really like under all his disguises.

He demands control because he thinks that is the only way to protect the ones he's attached to. He knows, in his particular position, that there really is no other way to go about it. And he doesn't want the people he cares about to like him. He doesn't think he deserves it, really.

He wants Gwen to be better, to do better, so he allows her to hate him so much that she has no choice but to come out stronger in the end.

[rappaccini]

hi im just a rando that somehow arrived at your blog, but i just wanted to say that i am FROTHING at the mouth for your spider-gwen takes (also just read your fic rachnophobia!! it was super good and so frifgin cathartic). your analyses are just so so ridiculously good. they put into words every thing i felt when i first read the spider-gwen comics when i was much younger and couldn't read between the lines (sitting in a tree was so icky and i didn't know why, even murderdock has more chemistry with gwen).

i don't really know how asks work on your blog so sorry if im intruding/being a bother, but if it's not too much i want to hear more on your take for gwen and murderdock's relationship (you know that one scene where gwen almost kills murderdock and they have a talk before gwen dimension hops), it left such an imprint on my mind, but their dynamic isn't talked about nearly enough for my taste.

(also totally unrelated but gwen-65 and the Mary Janes reminds me of dazey and the scouts + mommy long legs 🧍)

hello! no problem re: the asks, you're not intruding at all.

and like. fuck yeah let's talk about murdock. let's unpack the insane psychosexual obsession matt murdock 65 has with gwen.

putting aside the tiny things like him earnestly loving the mary janes' singles, or matt and gwen having the same catholic guilt haunting their subconsciouses, or him having a situationship with the woman who would've become spider-woman if gwen hadn't gotten bitten instead, and discarding that woman for gwen...

it makes me insane that he's a reluctant villain who was pressganged into joining the hand as a kid, who despite excelling at it, hates his job so much that he's preparing to kill himself and the only thing that stops him from going through with it is seeing (... 'seeing') spider-woman.

just knowing that she exists makes him want to live. the only reason why he's still getting up and going through the day is because he wants to see her, and be close to her. he wants to get to know her, and teach her. he wants her at his side. he straight-up admits at the tail end of the life of gwen stacy that the only reason why he hasn't ditched dimensions with his stolen portal watch is that he's staying for her and that matters more to him than his work, his reputation or his life.

like he looooves her. but in an extremely fucked-up, possessive way. that on a personal level, is a deadringer for the way an abuser loves their victim. on a thematic level, is symbolic of the patriarchy gwen's up against, and on a meta level, of all the men, real and symbolic, who keep the character of gwen stacy trapped in an awful narrative.

on the surface, his actions towards her do read like he's protecting her. he orders a hit on captain stacy to demand the cops leave spider-woman alone. he turns up at george's house when he deduces gwen's identity to tell him to his face that he knows their secret, that he isn't a worthy mentor or protector figure for gwen, and offer his legal services. he makes an offer of mentorship to gwen because he wants her to be a better fighter, and actually attempts to train her. he has a pack of ninjas dispatched to follow her around and protect her. he makes enemies of other villains to protect her secret identity. he refuses to kill her (... because tbh if she's dead he'd probably just kill himself). he's like a creepy villainous suitor.

(... @ the spiderverse migwen stans, read her comics. matt murderdock and gwen are literally everything you think miguel and gwen are doing, but it's actually canon.) matt doesn't want to be her dad. he wants to be her daddy.

but to be clear his intentions for her were never good. he's not misunderstood, or seeking redemption. before he's committed to goading her into killing him, his dynamic with gwen is still fundamentally abusive. he inserts himself into her life and turns up at her house uninvited. he isolates her from her friends and family. he has her jumped, beaten to a pulp and humiliated when he 'mentors' her. he lets the cops continue to chase after her to make her feel anxious and disillusioned even though he has the power to shut down her case at any time. that ninja bodyguard outfit is really there to report on her to him, and are not-so-subtly out to kill harry, her kind-of-love interest (... and therefore matt's rival). he sics hitmen on them when they run away together.

yeah, he doesn't want anyone to hurt her... unless he has allowed it. he doesn't see her as an equal, he wants her to serve him. he doesn't see her as the heir to his criminal empire, he sees her as a tool to keep it going. he doesn't want her dead, but that's only because if she dies, then he doesn't get to screw with her anymore. he wants to possess and control her.

the entire power-up pill arc reads like he's her wealthy, older abusive boyfriend who keeps her coming back to him with his resources (she desperately needs his legal counsel when her father's in jail)... and with drugs. he even describes their relationship like he's a drug she can't quit. he loves that she's dependent on him for her power-ups and gives them to her as rewards for obedience and associating with him.

which is all but confirmed when sitting in a tree juxtaposes matt with miles. both of these guys are attracted to gwen in a shallow way she fundamentally does not return, both see her as a symbol instead of a person. (look at how he talks about her:)

and both are offering her a relationship with them that'll lead to her having an easy fix to being persecuted on her homeworld, and power on the surface but little agency in reality. they don't love gwen, they love spider-woman; they want a powerful trophy girlfriend who can reassure them that selling their souls was worth it.

and she rebuffs them both. she sidesteps miles and runs away from murdock at the same time, even, in the predators arc. (... and does so by running off with harry, the only straight guy who's into gwen who actually gives a shit about her feelings and respects her boundaries.)

and murdock loses it. he goes full if-i-can't-have-you-no-one-can and has the venom symbiote created specifically to drive her out of control for good. he's preparing to dose her with the hard stuff, to keep her totally dependent on him and break her will.

not by killing her; by psychologically breaking her down. he wants a symbolic murder-suicide. the way he saw it, if he convinced gwen to go villain, then he has a little companion to be evil with, and she can reassure him that his terrible actions are unavoidable and natural.

... and if she kills him, then he's still corrupted her and he doesn't have to live with himself anymore. he can die knowing he's permanently changed her for the worse, that she'll never outrun the effect he had on her, and that he doesn't have to deal with the consequences.

and to top it all off, at the end of the run (aka when the writer knew he was getting canned and could just fucking go for it), matt straight-up confirms that his interest in her is sexual. it's not subtle.

"my dick is on fire. and here you are: moth to my flame." i mean. come on.

see how the moth/flame reference happens twice? it's a callback to him referring to the symbiote as a way to sap harry's powers out of him. a 'moth to a flame.' so uh. textually, he sees a sexual relationship with gwen as a way to further depower her. and he would have started one after gwen took on the symbiote and was fully out of control (and after harry was taken from her. one more layer of humiliation). she barely got out of there in time.

yeah uh now we have go back and to reexamine the whole power-up arc with the knowledge that if gwen hadn't left him when she did, he would have started sexually abusing her. he wasn't just grooming her to be his evil apprentice. he was, you know, grooming her.

look back. it's all there. look at how he's always touching her as she's squirming away from him, even in broad daylight in front of cops he has on his payroll, or even her own dad.

look at the double entendre in gwen acknowledging in predators that he literally wants her on her knees in front of him. look at all of his talk about 'teaching' her things that might have nothing to do with combat. look at how he became infatuated with her when she was underage and does not care that she's barely nineteen and he's in his thirties, or that she's completely indifferent to his advances and may be queer.

[sidebar: look at how felicia hardy and kitty pryde are also young women with superpowers and complex issues with their fathers, and are canonically bi in 616, who are pressured into compromising situations by murdock that lead to their villainy and imprisonment. he has a pattern of behavior and a preferred type of victim. gwen isn't unique to him, she's just his newest plaything.]

look at how gwen's so viscerally disgusted by him that she can't stop venom from popping out when she has to touch him.

there's a Lot to unpack there.

through the entire latour run, gwen's dodging unwanted and harmful affection from men-- peter the incel who tries to kill everyone when she isn't into him, harry the ex who loves gwen and wants to punish her for what she did to peter (... but realizes he was wrong and redeems himself), rhino the villain of the week who gropes her during their fight, miles the Nice Guy who wants to take her away from everyone she loves and turn her into a trophy girlfriend who makes his spiderbabies, the dozens of spider-men who see her as a vessel for girlfriend trauma venting. and matt, as her nemesis, is the ultimate culmination of all of that put together. he's a groomer and an abuser to his core.

which makes the way gwen deals with him all the more poignant: after trying to evade, work with and placate him for her entire run, and finally snapping and turning on him, she has him on his knees. not because she personally has defeated him, though she did kick his ass-- because the system he's destroying himself to support has discarded him after eating him alive.

she doesn't try to See The Good In Him, she acknowledges that there simply isn't any. he isn't misunderstood, he isn't a woobie, he's absolutely not sexy or alluring. he was never cool or badass. his tragic past doesn't justify the harm he's done in the present. he doesn't have anything valuable to teach her and he never would have protected her. he's a pathetic little man who tries on personas to hide his sense of inadequacy and could have always risen above his circumstances to be a better person but simply chose not to. he’s a white guy with a katana who uses dated slang to try to sound cool to the teenage girls he wants to abuse.

(... tiring of the fandom to not pick up on any of this and treat murdock like a badass. he wasn't. that's the point. murderdock is a kind of evil that's mundane and familiar. that is the scary thing about him: that you know this guy.)

she doesn't kill him, she leaves him behind to presumably be arrested, tried, jailed and have to live with himself in the way he never ever wanted to. no more personas to hide behind, no more wealth or followers he can use to bully people. he's in hell, just not the one he was hoping for.

and she never interacts with him again.

he's an absolutely incredible villain for gwen. his relationship with gwen works to activate her redemption and evolution into a full hero; gwen's entire latour arc is about grappling with the consequences of her irresponsible and selfish behavior. like matt, she's done some terrible shit, is tied up with bad people, and hates herself for it. but unlike matt, she wants to be a better person and puts in the work to do it.

he's a physical representation of the meta forces that are holding gwen stacy the character back: men who see gwen herself not as a person but as a sex object that can make them look impressive or feel less inadequate, who want to deny her any agency or her own relationships, and take them away when she does obtain them, so they can make her all about them. and who see her power as something annoying that should be stripped from her so she can be an accessory to a more powerful man, or as a fun bonus feature that can only be used for that man's advancement. the character of gwen stacy is literally stuck in a cycle of abuse where she's killed, resurrected, killed again, and never gets a break. murdock is representative of the forces that keep that cycle turning, and spider-gwen breaks it, not by existing-- by putting in the work to give herself a narrative that frees her from that status quo.

watching gwen's relationship with murdock evolve solidifies the symbolic narrative about patriarchy running through the entire run.

(we watched matt be absorbed into a violent, male-dominated system against his will as a young boy, and consciously choose to keep perpetuating it, even though it makes him miserable to the point of wanting to die. and the thing that makes him buy in fully is the idea that hey, he might be miserable, but if he gets a girl to submit to him, he can take out that misery on her, gain status for having her under his control, and use her to advance that agenda against others.)

we watched gwen, as a young, naive girl, try to avoid the patriarchy entirely and girlboss her way through life, insisting that she can do whatever she wants because she has powers.

we watched her get the shit kicked out of her in her origin story when it caught up with her, cornered her, and she realized she wasn't the exception. and murdock is the source of this realization because he's the one who instigates the hit on george stacy that causes her to reveal her identity to him.

in the power up pill and sitting in a tree arcs, we watched her literally flirt with the idea of selling out to it, and try to work with it when it offers her special privileges for doing so (cough gwiles cough)

in predators, we watched gwen realize any safety or special treatment it offers her is bullshit and the cost of playing along will violate and destroy everyone she cares about and her most of all

in gwenom, we watched her embrace her most uninhibited self and attack it head-on

in the life of gwen stacy, we watched her realize that a full awakening means embracing other women and taking responsibility for protecting them and her community, rather than simply beating the thing oppressing her until it's dead

we watched her call it and all its enforcers and believers who still cling to it useless little bitches and turn her back on them for good.

this is the gwen that gets away from the male gaze. (or at least she was. thanks spiderverse.)

and even though gwen's defeated murdock, his influence lives on.

gwen's constantly dealing with villains who are attracted to her, whose attraction to her is the basis of their violence towards her (peter 65, harry and em jay for a time, rhino, matt, jackal, maybe johnny storm if the mcguire run hadn't been canned).

she's constantly being knocked around the multiverse and shoved towards miles with a kiss-me sign around her neck because of the same possessive patriarchal bullshit that matt tried to impose on her.

she has serious intimacy issues, particularly with romance. she's flighty, she can't commit, she excuses toxic behavior in em jay, she can't stand up for herself around miles or peter and deny their advances bluntly, she's constantly on this carousel of nearly coming out of the closet and ducking back in.

and though much of this, in-universe, stems from her knowledge of gwen stacy's role in the multiverse, murdock's psychosexual obsession with her is the direct visceral source of that trauma on a personal level. and she hasn't really unpacked this.

he still looms large in her subconscious in a way that no other villain has ever matched. thank you for letting me soapbox about this.

[evilwickedme]

Who's your favorite Spider-person outside of Peter?

Actually, Spider-Gwen/Ghost Spider is my favorite Spider-Person!! All Spider-People are good, obviously, and Peter (and Peter B especially) is probably my second favorite, but I just love Gwen so much 😭 plus her main archenemy is equally as cool and one of my fav characters. Both of them have been my obsession since ~April-ish. You can find a lot of my meta from may or June in both their tags quite easily to this day, or just scroll through the Spider Gwen and Murderdock tags right here on my blog to see me slowly unravel and go insane over them, but in reverse order 😹

[fiskmatt]

Sideblog for me (@twilight-deviant) to gather FiskMatt content or posts that make me think of them.

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[heroofashesnot]

tbh for all my Murderdock posts how it usually goes is the first few people will maybe reblog and then after that the more popular ones will get sporadic likes by others outside my circle and while I do like likes, there’s this kind of wondering if what I made was good enough if this person didn’t even bother to reblog even without any tags or feedback, y’know… like sometimes I want to write meta but if my most popular meta only gets like one like per month at most, why bother…

[transmurderdock]

There seems to be some kind of parallel between George Stacy and Jack Murdock in Earth-65 that seems to stem off of the parallel between Murderdock and Gwen. It is easy to draw a parallel between the two, they’re both single fathers due to their wife’s death, they have series of morals that they impose upon their child, and they both have a strong sense of honor that ends up compelling them into preforming a self-sacrificing act for what they believe to be the betterment of their child.

The funny thing is that in this parallel is that Murderdock himself ends fulfilling the role of both Stick and Silvermane to Gwen.

He fulfills the role of Stick by acting as Gwen’s vigilante mentor, teaching her how to fight while her father’s absence puts her in a vulnerable situation. Stick uses Matt’s desire to pursue vengeance for his father in order to further his own goals, and in turn, Matt takes advantage of Gwen’s desire to free her father from prison to further his goals, even to Gwen’s detriment. Stick teaches Matt how to control his powers in exchange for fighting in his war and Matt gives Gwen her powers in exchange for working for him. He even insults her father to her face like Stick!

He simultaneously fulfills the role of Silvermane, though to a lesser extent. Silvermane is a crime boss that takes advantage of Jack’s debt and need to provide for his family, just like Matt tries to take advantage of George’s desire to right by his daughter. Silvermane sends a hitman after Jack which leads to his death and Matt sends Aleksei after George twice with the second time ending in him being hospitalized, each of these events ends up with their respective vigilante going off on a quest for vengeance.

Murderdock’s actions really do resemble those who have caused him harm in the past.

[batmurdock]

Find a new direction (well, well, well) Another resurrection (well, now) Don't wait, hesitate or it's gonna be too late Flames are getting higher, got to jump out of the fire!He's watching us burn, he's watching us burn One day we'll learn, one day we'll learn...

[themattfogblog]

*eerie theremin wails*

Wait, what is that sound? Oh! it’s for our new event, the second coming of...

           The Matt/Fog Week!!!

Oct 24 to Oct 30, this blog is hosting an entire week about Matt Murdock and / or Franklin “Foggy” Nelson, as friends, partners, lovers… you pick! You can also do a Matt-only or a Foggy-only work, just don’t ship them with someone else (details in the FAQ). All versions of Foggy Nelson & Matt Murdock are welcome: comics, TV shows, movies, Murderdock… All lengths and sizes, all languages, all types of fanworks welcome! Fanmix, needle art, fic, art, gifset, edit, podfic, meta... one chapter of your WIP? A sketch? go for it!

Each day comes with a theme; it's an inspiration, but you can follow it as closely or loosely as you'd like! It can be Halloween-themed or not, as you wish :D

Monday 24: Bat Tuesday 25: Food Wednesday 26: Horns Thursday 27: Fire Friday 28: Suit Saturday 29: Fear Sunday 30: Free topic / Amnesty day if you couldn’t post before!

You can participate as much or little as you want, it’s all up to you! It can also be a new chapter of a fic, an outtake from a series, a podfic or translation… If you create art / graphic works, a description for accessibility purposes would be much appreciated. Don’t forget you can already post in the dedicated AO3 collection even now - all newly posted works will be revealed on The Matt/Fog Week, so you can start as early as you’d like ^_^ Just @themattfogblog us and #themattfogblog in the first five tags :-) More info in the FAQ (open the link in a browser!) and if you can’t find your answer, send an ask!

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Spread the word!

Some examples of prompt tips and ideas under the cut ^_^

Bat: the animal, various sports, to bat something away, batty, batman... Food: the boys having takeout, Nelson's Meats, Matt's empty fridge, Foggy enjoying his meal, our heroes at Columbia eating cheap ramen noodles, restaurant date, cooking breakfast for your bf... Horns: DD's helmet, devil, demons, various animals, foghorn, musical instrument, old word for phone, demon AU, or ~other~ meanings ;-) Fire: firearm, to fire a weapon, burning, world on fire, fire escape, firefighters… Suit: clothes, lawsuit, suitor, fit / match, disguise, Daredevil's suit... Fear: man without fear, fearless, fearful, biggest fear, BOO!, Halloween pranks...

[ceterisparibus116]

Fun meta asks for writers - Number 2 if it strikes your fancy!

Thank you so much for the ask! <3

#2 is: Tell us about what you’re most looking forward to writing – in your current project, or a future project

Okay, so, the honest is answer is that I'm most excited about a project that I can't actually talk about for ~reasons~ that are very cool and mysterious, lol.

Other than that, I'm really excited to get back to my Spiderman/Daredevil fic where Matt represents Peter after his identity is revealed. There are upcoming multiverse shenanigans that are gonna be so much fun, including but not limited to bringing in Matt "Murderdock," an evil version of Matt!

(Here's the fic for those who want to check it out. It's on pause while I finish up my whump/flufftober prompts.)

[pomegranate-belle]

So my brain just absolutely would not let me work on anything last night except a scene where Alexandra Reid shows up at Murderdock’s place (yeah I know she’s not in any comics canon but since I don’t have a dedicated NMCU verse in this AU I’m basically just gently dunking a teabag of NMCU canon into the hot water of the multiverse lmao) to brag about finally finding the Black Sky — but like, on a meta level it’s probably really more about showing what Murderdock’s relationship is to the Hand members higher up on the chain than him.

Anyway my entire response while writing that scene was basically, *banging pots and pans together* THIS IS SO FUCKED UP!! THIS IS SO FUCKED UP!! I AM GONNA NEED CONTENT WARNINGS FOR THIS!!

[murdockmeta]

A thing I’ve noticed is during Matt’s backstory, the hoodie he’s wearing when he’s at his parents’ graves and when Stick dies seems to be the same one

I love getting asks from you but I didn't need to be hurt like this /lh

okay this kind of changes perspective on how long I assumed he was with stick, though. cause I figured he was kinda young when Jack died, like 10? and then when stick died he was 13/14 ish. but now that I'm looking there really doesn't appear to be ANY change in age from the two time periods. like I think you could say Matt looks older when they go after silvermane but not by MUCH. he looks very early teens in both panels

so what, he got a year with stick? maybe a little more or less depending on how quickly Matt picked up sticks training. also the thing I always thought SUCKED was its clear from these two panels that while stick was a vigilante fighting the good fight or whatever, he was still controlling and looking for child soldiers to fight his war. it means he was probably just as abusive and manipulative.

and that was all Matt had. besides the orphanage or whatever he was staying at because there's no way stick was taking care of him full time. but that's all Matt had as someone to look up to and have as support. stick. it must've warped Matt's view on what parental figures were supposed to be like SO much. like when's the last time this man's been hugged? or even simply experienced physical touch in any way that isnt meant to harm/control him? I'm so serious. IGNORING all the OTHER fucked up shit he's been through, the INTENSE neglect he mustve experienced would be enough to fuck him up permanently.

anyway thanks for pointing this out i love noticing more tragic details about my blorbo

[murdockmeta]

The earth-65 symbiotes are such a fascinating species! Not just the synthetic ones but the hint that the more well known ones and just the contrasts between the two. Gwen’s eats whatever she does but needs things like cellulose to survive meanwhile the organic ones only feed on brain chemicals such as adrenaline and phenylalanine. Anyways ever think about how Elsa Brock and technically Matt Murdock are Venom’s parents in Earth 65?

thank you for all this interesting information, thats something I'd honestly never noticed before but i also dont really know a lot about symbiotes lol. thats really cool!!

also OKAY LISTEN LMFAO in e65 circles I only ever really hear people talk about Matt's scenes with Cindy Moon when it comes to addressing Matt's canon non-platonic interactions and I honestly think Elsa Brock is way too overlooked on this front

the relationship that we are shown in only a handful of panels is waaayyy more interesting than anything we are given about Cindy and Matt.

Matt approached Elsa, told her he was going to mentally manipulate the Manhattan DA into becoming his personal pocket square, told her he was working with spider woman, told her he was going to go after Norman Fucking Osborne to manipulate and scare the hell out of him, and then told her that he wanted to fund her symbiote project to be the pretty bow wrapping everything together

and she fucking loved it

NOT ONLY WAS SHE ON BOARD SHE WAS FUCKING EXCITED, SHE WAS ESTATIC. she heard "I want to fund your batshit project to create an organism that's extremely dangerous and unstable" and she started FOAMING AT THE MOUTH

I kinda loved Matt and Elsa's relationship and I wish we got to see more of it. They had more chemistry in a single panel together than Matt and Cindy had in the entire kiss they shared. They both love putting on a show, they're both evil (actually, i think elsa's worse than matt to a degree), and they both love controlled chaos.

another detail I enjoyed was that Matt very much lied to Elsa about his true intentions w the symbiote.

in the scene with Osborne, he lays the whole plan out to Norman and Gwen. about the symbiote and harry and everything. and that had kinda seemed to be the original idea until:

first of all, love the banter like genuinely its so fun. second, I love that we find out the reason Elsa is angry isn't because she doesn't like working with Matt due to his reputation or because she feels bad about it. in fact, I think she couldn't care less except for when it comes to how it affects her own career.

She's angry because Matt acted like he was going to keep their true intentions for the venom secret until after it had already worked only to TELL SPIDERWOMAN LITERALLY EVERYTHING.

Elsa was involved in this whole thing because not only did it benefit her research but she also like that it was evil lmfao. like she couldn't understand why Matt would reveal so much to Gwen or even why Matt would want to infect Gwen w the symbiote since Matt already had a way to easily control Gwen through using the "power-up" isotopes.

this whole scene she's basically saying "you wanted to be evil so why aren't you being evil???? we were supposed to be evil together Matt what the fuck????" And she's reasonably second guessing his intentions

what she doesn't know is that Matt was just using her to give Gwen her powers back. Matt didn't actually ever want to control Gwen. he had the hopes of maybe manipulating her into killing him but there were just enough holes in his plan that him failing feels very intentional.

here I am once again pushing my agenda that Matt wanted Gwen to win. he knew the symbiote was going to consume Gwen but he also knew it wasn't a perfect organism. far from it. once again, a win-win situation for him. either the symbiote makes gwen kill him or the symbiote is just unstable enough that gwen can mold it into something that isn't consuming her, therefore making her stronger and better than before.

but anyway. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS ASK I LOVE ANY EXCUSE TO TALK ABOUT ANYTHING EARTH 65. OR ANYTHING MATT MURDOCK.

good day to you :)

edit: I just reread your ask and I'm starting to wonder if the symbiote was altered that way on purpose? (to have to consume cellulose, ect. rather than brain chemicals lol) cause both chemicals you listed promotes alertness, alters mood, and regulates body function. specifically phenylalanine is an extremely important amino acid. if the symbiote feeds on these, it takes them from the host. taking important neurotransmitters like that would inevitably cause a destabilization and deterioration of the host (ignoring the fact that the radiation would probably kill them first). Matt certainly didn't want that for Gwen, right? he wanted the symbiote to fuck w her but not like. destroy her. he wanted to keep the mood enhancing qualities while stripping away the more dangerous aspects. gwens already immune to the radiation but the venom needed to be altered to feed on something that wouldn't harm gwen. matt wanted Gwen to have a chance to fight the thing off before it completely took control. he was ACTING like he wanted it to take her over but if that was true he would've left the symbiote in its more organic form. or something closer to it.

[murdockmeta]

I think Murderdock has genetic chimerism and that’s what happened to Earth-65 Mike

This is a valid HC and honestly would make sense. I actually like the idea and the purpose it serves thematically. Cause e616 Mike and Murderdock are very similar. They both serve as a foil to e616 Matt, so of course they're gonna be similar, right? The only real difference is that Mike is a good person and Murderdock isnt.

Otherwise, I really love Mike's character and the purpose he serves towards Matt's narrative. And having Mike die in the womb, while symbolic, also misses the opportunity to explore more of how his character's purpose changes in Earth-65.

One of my favorite takes on Mike I've seen is that he's used as a persona by Earth-65 Matt to act like a normal person. Matt uses it as a way to be cordial, get away with being pleasant and easygoing without affecting his reputation. He's friends with Foggy, he's affectionate and relaxed.

The reason I like this is that Mike as a persona is being used in the exact same way it was used originally in Earth-616, but flipped in the opposite way due to how e65 Matt is different from e616 Matt. Matt originally created Mike to cover his identity but he continued to use it when he realized he could be more himself and didn't have to pretend to be mild mannered and reserved all the time.

But e65 Matt is never mild mannered. He's never reserved. He's dramatic and prideful and in control. But that's not who Matt is as a complete person. He doesn't really have any way to be like that in e65... so in comes Mike Murdock.

It again has to do with Matt's inherent identity issues, which are still just as relevant to e65 Matt's character, but in a different way. Earth-65 Matt feels like there's something wrong with him because he knows he's a bad person. He feels like he can't be good at all. He can't have attachments, he can't be charitable. But a part of Matt, no matter how small, would want to do these things. Because that's who he is as a person.

I personally like the idea of Earth-65 Mike being a real person. He's still Mike but... he's very similar to e616 Matt in a lot of ways that e65 Matt isn't. Mike has an everyday job, he's married to Karen, he's lives a relatively normal life. Because in my head, I would want e65 Mike to serve as both a foil to Murderdock and to e616 Mike.

Earth-65 Mike Murdock would be normal. He's friends with Butch, they go get drunk at the bar on weekends. He's happily married and has a baby on the way. He misses his brother. He'll visit the local police station and pay off the guy at the front desk to sneak into evidence lock up. He'll look at all of Matt's old stuff the police took after he went missing and was never found. He'll shed a few tears and leave trying not to think about it. He'll go by Battlin Jacks Gym and wonder when he'll ever have the courage to sell the place. He'll go home and Karen will kiss his cheek and ask how his day was. He'll smile and lie to her before asking how her work day at the DA's office was.

As normal as a Murdock can be.

Thanks for this ask!! :D I love any chance to talk about Murderdock or Mike and you mixed both together for this one so I love that lol

[amazing-spiderling]

I am not posting 3k weird meta posts and increasingly stupid comic edits to get bumped out of being the top Murderdock blog by Canon/OC writers who are misusing the tag.

[amazing-spiderling]

What’s some of your favorite characters to write and what’s some of your least favorite?

Friendo, please know that I have been staring at this ask in my inbox for a while and always going "HUH." because it feels like such a big question, sometimes I don't know how to answer it. skfdjs

I think, broadly, my favorite characters to write are going to be the ones who have some attribute I've managed to zero in on with some amount of personal understanding. It doesn't have to be a character I think is "just like me", (I don't know that I've felt that about many if any fictional characters) so much as one that I think I have one or two things in common with that I can focus on in a story. I guess the trick is remembering to focus on lots of aspects of their character so I don't reduce them to just that, though.

As for favorites...

From Metal Gear, I really liked writing from Otacon's POV. While he is brilliant and talented in his own right, in a lot of ways he is the best person to have an outside perspective on the crazy things that are happening in his world. Yes, he's an unparalleled engineer and hacker, but he's surrounded by genetically altered super soldiers pumped full of nanomachines, and it tends to put things in perspective. I think that's why Project Itoh chose to write the MGS4 novelization from his POV. Since I often feel like an observer around people who seem to lead more dramatic and interesting lives, I think I find it enjoyable to write stories with a "friendly outsider" perspective.

For Marvel... I think it's *easier* for me to write for Peter Parker, again, some similarities between us I feel I can tap into with ease, but I think its more *fun* to write Wade. He does get to have all the best banter, and if I want to write a joke that isn't actually that funny, well, then it's just that much more in character. I think I prefer writing Foggy to Matt, again, because of that "involved outsider" thing he has going on. He's emotionally involved in a lot of the goings on, even if he isn't in the middle of things (and then sometimes he is in the middle of things, but that's another issue). I also like writing Foggy in Earth-65 contexts because I think a lot of Murderdock comes from what he isn't saying. If we're inside his head and seeing the reasons behind his actions, some of the mystique is ruined. But if we are sitting on Foggy's shoulders, and only seeing the external (albeit, from someone who has a better understanding of Matt than most) we have to piece things together and make more inferences, and that gives me the chance to drop little breadcrumbs and easter eggs and I LIVE for that.

On the flip side, characters I've had little luck with... ugh. Hm. That's really tricky. I think I don't tend to write the characters I don't have fun with, life is too short. Sometimes it's required though, especially when I'm writing with a partner and we're splitting up the side characters, but even then... it can be fun to write characters I hate and go, UGH, THEY'RE AWFUL. (See: Huey from MGSV)

I guess the most difficult would be characters like Elektra, not because I don't like her- but because I think that we haven't got much in the way of real, solid characterization and motivation for her that doesn't revolve around Matt Murdock. (Well, not counting the Elektra movie, so maybe I should just use that as her model from now on lol.) If I'm totally honest, I feel like a lot of the meta I read about Elektra is from people who have pinged some characteristic within her (like I have for my faves) that doesn't ping for me, so I don't find it relatable or interesting to explore. But I also don't want to throw her into a fic just to make her a bad guy so my ship can kiss, you know? And it's just... bleh, it's a lot of homework, so that's probably why I've avoided it. Does that make me a bad fan? Maybe. I never claimed to be a good one.

[amazing-spiderling]

How aware do you Murderdock is of the multiverse?

Guess it's time for another ♥♡∞:｡.｡MURDERDOCK META POST｡.｡:∞♡♥

This sent me back to the comics, because I had a general memory of how things played out, but this is also a situation where the specific dialogue makes a difference. While I still think the words on the page leave something to reader interpretation, I'll give you my hot take.

The multiverse does factor into "Spider-Gwen" as a significant factor at several points, both during crossovers (like the Spider-Women event) and as a major plot point in its own self contained story. (By the time the series starts, Gwen had already gone through the entirety of events of the Spider-Verse event.) It would be easy to think that Matt doesn't know about the multiverse at all, but we have some indicators that this is not the case!

During the 6 Issue Miles Morales/Spider-Gwen crossover, the pair end up in Earth-65 trying to hunt down that world's Jefferson Davis, who is a low level crime boss. He is interfering with SILK's business, which might put him in the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" category, except for one thing...

Matt Murdock wants him out of the picture. Now, there's a few notable pieces of information in this interaction. First of all, Miles quickly recognizes Matt and his power set, Matt identifies himself as a threat, and explains why and how he wants the two heroes to deal with this problem for him. Now, not only do I think Matt remains unphased by the appearance of a previously unknown Spider-Man, but he uses the phrase "someone with your father's face" here, implying he knows that Davis is not Miles' real father, but someone who just looks like him. To me, that means that he understands, at least on a very basic level, that the multiverse is a thing, and different versions of people can and do exist in different universes. Why does he know this at this point? Unclear! But the best bet is that Cindy explained the fundamentals to him while they brokered their various deals, as she is well versed in the topic.

So that seems pretty conclusive evidence that he is aware of the multiverse, but the follow-up question that I have to ask is, what does he think about it? Well, how did you react the first time you learned about how vast the universe was? It sure made you feel some kind of way, didn't it?

To this end, let's examine a few other panels!

During Gwen's fight to defend Harry in Madripoor, she has to do quite a lot of running, and things get well out of hand more than once. At some point, she drops the bag containing her transporter bracelet, and Matt picks it up. Based on his wry smile, I think he has some idea of what it is.

At least at this point, he understands that it is some kind of transporter, and that he can use the technology to his advantage. Here, he uses it to "draw back the curtain" so to speak, to show Gwen that her father is in a coma, so she'll run off after him immediately, and drop the fight she's in the middle of.

Later, he uses it himself to make a quick exit after delivering Richie Rogers (the dirty cop who let Alexei into Captain Stacy's cell) in an attempt to bait her into a murderous rage. So he clearly understands how the device works and is capable of using it for himself.

Then? He keeps it, for ages. He still has it on him in a much later issue when he recovers a barely-breathing Rogers and even shows it off before delivering his backstory monologue. He admits the dinging noise perplexes him, and he can't make it stop. You'd think he'd throw it in a drawer or at least get Otomo to look at it and tell him if the screen is blinking "low battery", you know?

He is even wearing it in his penultimate confrontation with Gwen, and it's being just as annoying as ever. Gwen finally realizes that Murdock has had the device in his possession for ages now, and she seems to be rightfully concerned. But she doesn't recover it at this point.

(I didn't really need to include this page, but it's sick as hell. Look at it! The colors! The typeface in the background! The action!)

Gwen eventually returns from her multiversal self-confrontational romp to take down Matt once and for all, and find him in pretty bad shape. He's cut ties with the Hand and they've cut him to pieces in return. Though he's fended off wave after wave of ninjas on his own, he's clearly wounded, both from this altercation and the beating Gwen gave him earlier. And yet, he has the nerve to stand there like everything is going according to plan, peddling his usual lies. And I think that's really important to take note of.

Because immediately after, he shows Gwen the transporter, and says that at any moment he could have gone wherever he wanted and started a whole new life. This, of course, would have behooved him, as the Hand are currently after him with everything they have, his allies in the city are dwindling by the minute, and his grand performance is quickly coming to a close. He tells Gwen that he chose to stay for her benefit, though we know in his mind that this means he doesn't think he's finished his job of helping Gwen be corrupted by power.

And Gwen? Rightfully calls him out on his bullshit. As should we all.

Now, there's a lot to unpack here, and I think it goes back up to the interaction with Miles. Matt knows that the multiverse exists. And I don't think it's too far of a stretch to say that he understands the bracelet is not just a teleporter, but can actually open up gates to other dimensions, like the ones Gwen has traveled to. When he talks about "going anywhere" I don't think he just means a quiet villa in Tuscany, because as he has said in the past, the Hand are everywhere, with a stranglehold on every culture. I don't think there's anywhere he could run that would be far enough, besides the fact that he, y'know, kind of stands out. (I mean, what's he going to do, dye his hair and pretend he can see and get a job as a line cook at a diner?)

No, I think it's far more compelling to imagine that he is telling Gwen he could have gone to any other world, but he chose to stay for her sake. Which is of course, an utter lie, and not just because Gwen wants nothing to do with him.

The real reason Matt hasn't gone anywhere? Is because he's heard about how these different universes can vary. If Cindy was indeed the one who explained the multiverse to him, then she likely mentioned how the other world's version of him was a perky, heroic, and naive little thing. Miles was shocked to find out that his dad was a criminal in this world, when he's a guiding light for him in his own. That's two for two on "other world's versions of people are good guys", so I think it's safe to imagine Matt having a "this is the bad place" moment after thinking about it for a while.

Why would that be particularly devastating for him? Well, just as Peter Parker's ethos revolves around, "With great power, there must also come great responsibility", Murderdock has more or less formed his life around the idea that "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". He believes that he was fated to become a corrupted and evil human being because he was given power and skill far beyond that of anyone else in the world. (Remember, Earth-65 is a "low super" world, so someone like Matt Murdock would be closer to the top of the food chain, even without ninja training and a willingness to kill.) So sure, he could go to a universe that proves this theory right, he might even meet a version of himself that is somehow worse, but what terrifies him to his core is the idea that he might meet a version of himself who is so much better.

So while Murderdock does believe that power is what caged him, that his fall from grace was an inevitability the moment those chemicals were splashed in his eyes, I think it's safe to say there is a tiny, screaming, crying voice at the core of him that lies awake at night wondering, "What if it wasn't?"

And that's why he stays right where he is.