#me when you bring up the tortoise: 👀 | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

twdmusicboxmystery · 2 years ago

Note

Have you watched twd press conference at sdcc. The cast were asked which dead character they would bring back and Norman said Hershel and Beth. Im worried now.

Yup, I did! A multitude of thoughts are below. 😁 You don’t need to be worried. That was actually a massively planned hint. (Details below.)

Okay, I know I said I would talk about the special from Sunday today, but I decided I wanted to put this out first, because it ties into what I posted about the snake and tortoise legend/symbolism (read here) and I think the weirdness of the special will make more sense if you read this first.

Here’s the link if you want to listen tot he press conference yourself: https://youtu.be/Vf8k8AFZBHk

I say listen because, although this is a video, the video part of it is set on a weird, distracting loop. So you mostly have to just listen to it and try to discern which of the actors are speaking. Because you’re all TWD junkies like us, I think you’ll be able to tell who is who, for the most part.

But there are some CRAZY hints they’re throwing around in this press conference. Here’s our convo about it:

@wdway:

Guy's last night I listened to the press interview of most of the TWD cast panel. I found it actually very interesting and very insightful in many ways with the actors talking about their different characters.

@twdmusicboxmystery:

IIRC, Norman mentioned Beth as one character who he wanted to survive longer. And it was interesting, bc at first, when they went down the line, he said Hershel. And he’s used that answer before. It was later, after others gave their answers, that he suddenly chimes in again and said something like “Beth would have been a good one.” And that’s suspicious to me. It was like he just wanted to throw that out there and waited until a bunch of others were talking before he did so.

@galadrieljones:

Beth would not be an “afterthought,” since after the origins episode Norman opens up about Daryl’s feelings for Beth and it’s clear that over the past year they want us to think about her. Like “Oh yeah wait that one character whose death destroyed Daryl for five seasons what was her name again? Oh yeah Beth. She would have been a good one.” Lol.

@wdway:

I felt that Norman was being very careful about answering the past character questions and put in Beth as others were talking and it wasn't as obvious but made me very happy. I think Norman thought he was going to get questions about MMB and the spin-off and was being very cautious.

I find it a bit strange that both Greg and Norman do not know the difference between an armadillo and a possum. Greg telling the story of Daryl eating a armadillo and Norman jumped in and said it was when they first got to AZ and he messed up the first porch cleaning the armadillo. I kept waiting for someone, Gimple or AK, to say possum not armadillo but no one did. As far as I know there are not any wild armadillo in Georgia or Virginia. Could that have been a strange hint/reminder of Daryl and that possums are known for playing dead?

@twdmusicboxmystery:

(This wasn't part of our conversation, but I googled "possum vs. armadillo." Turns out, there's a common joke about armadillos being "possums in a half shell." Check it out HERE.

Couple of things about that. 1) It can't be an accident that possums and armadillos are related and this is what they were substituting with. It's not like just saying the wrong thing or making a mistake in the moment. As @wdway said, they said it over and over and no one corrected them. 2) The BIGGER deal is that "possums in a half shell" is a reference to the old Ninja Turtle song from the 80s cartoon I grew up watching with my brothers. It said, "Turtles in a half shell."

So basically, in saying this, they were saying possum = turtle. And turtle = Beth. This was 100% a Beth reference. 👀 Back to the convo.

@wdway cont'd:

I really enjoyed Josh and Seth. They said that early on in s5 that there had been in a script of a discussion between Eugene and FG about God vs science, because of time restraints they never actually filmed the scene but throughout the years there have been small hints of that discussion.

I thought that Seth near the end of the interview made his points of regretting not having more of FG story developed further but he said it in a very respectful way that made me laugh and think that he know exactly what and how to get his point across with a soft voice instead of a loud and harsh angry statement and jokingly brought the interview to a close.

There was a question asked that I didn't catch but there was a long pause and thought it was a question directed at Norman but not sure but I thought it was Greg's voice being heard saying, "be careful," as in be careful how you answer. I think someone else jumped in and started talking. It was so late and I was tired and I didn't try to go back and really listen to that part. I found a lot of great insightful moments in the interview and overall was a nice way to gain a little bit more understanding of the actors of some of our favorite characters.

@galadrieljones:

Okay so I listened to the press conference, and I agree with everything you guys have said. First, I definitely agree that Norman is being kinds of "hands-off" in this press conference, which feels very much lead by Seth and Josh and also the showrunners. Norman's answers mostly seem very off-hand to me. I can't tell if he's on guard or just kind of distracted. He just doesn't seem to be thinking very hard about his answers, where I feel that Lauren, Seth, and Josh are all being much more forthcoming and thoughtful.

Perhaps that is novel to this press conference? I haven't seen enough of them to know how Norman usually approaches questioning, but I have read enough interviews to know that he IS very thoughtful when it comes to Daryl, so to me, his answers here did feel...surface-level, at best.

In terms of the question about dead characters, Daryl first defaults to Hershel, then later, he kind of quietly interjects: "Merle...Merle would've been..." but then he's cut off and doesn't continue. Much later, after the whole incredibly weird armadillo exchange with Gimple, he then comments quietly "Beth would've been good." I laughed out loud, because it was so weird. Idk how to describe why it seemed weird. It seemed like he'd been thinking about it and just threw it out there at the last minute.

@twdmusicboxmystery:

(Okay, interjecting again. Right AFTER the armadillo thing (armadillo = Turtle = Beth) Norman threw Beth's name into the mix. Guys, this was SOOOOOO planned. And such a great TD hint!)

@galadrieljones cont'd:

I feel if a more gregarious actor had been on stage with him, like JDM, he might've made a comment about it, poked fun or something, or called attention to Norman's answer, but it's not happening with this group of ppl, because it has occurred to me that of all the actors on the stage, ONLY Reedus ever acted with Emily, and the others came on after Beth was already gone. I know FG has commented on her before, but it's like nobody hears Norman's little comment except for us.

I just thought it was neat he mentions Merle off-handedly, AND THEN BETH. Like, here he is actually being sort of thoughtful. I wish I could see the footage so I could understand his body language in this moment.

Okay, my next note hasn't been mentioned yet but I found it to be the most interesting part of the panel, which is Seth's answer to this question: Tyreese. Seth starts talking about Tyreese, and then suddenly everybody is going on and on about Tyreese and his death, and how it's "one of the best episodes." Seth even asks: "What was the title of that episode? What's Happening and What's Going On?"

They keep emphasizing how good it was, and Gimple talks about how any time he goes to Georgia he drives by the sub-development they used for filming. I just thought it was weird how much they emphasized WHAWGO, given its bizarre nature, like they want ppl to remember it, they want journalists to report on it so that people go back and watch it. Idk. Okay and back to Gimple and the armadillo thing. Like wtf? That is not an armadillo. Very weird moment lol.

Again I think Norman is weird because it's like he seems to remember certain things VERY well and then plays dumb on stuff like this. Gimple also misremembers the name of the neighborhood in Richmond as "Wiltshire Estates." It's actually called "Shirewilt Estates," and I wondered if this meant anything. Like did they purposely reverse the name at the last minute or something and now even Gimple has forgotten? Idk. Anyway multiple times ppl commented that WHAWGO is one of the best episodes of the series. I also recorded Gimple and Kang's answers for the question "Was there always an ending you were working towards?" This seemed interesting to me:

Gimple: Things changed. I feel that it folded into some plans nicely. It folded into some issues because the finale is about completing TWD story, not setting up spin-offs. There’s room for those spin-offs, but full on TWD finale concludes the story of this 11 years, and we didn’t want the spin-offs to get in the way of that satisfaction. They live together I think very nicely.

Kang: I think that’s right. I think that even if there were no spin-offs, it would feel like there is a closure to the show itself, because the show itself needs its own ending. But you know doors are left open as they so often are in life and as they were even in the ending of the comic. It’s like there’s always a story that’s continuing once the story that you tell on the screen has ended and that’s the spirit.

I was glad to hear they are using the ending to END the series, not to set up too much new stuff. I was interested in the question because the journalist mentions 2020, like as if that's the year things "changed," which it is, and it reminded me of Emily's post about 2020 becoming 2022.

I liked what Gimple said about how the changes "folded into some plans nicely" and also "folded into some issues." It does seem like things changed, but that the integrity of the original plan is still in motion.

In terms of Norman's disposition, again, I feel he was flippant with the question about characters he most connected with. First of all, he misunderstood the question and named like five characters who Daryl connects with, none of whom were Beth. I thought that was a little weird tbh, since I've read many interviews where he's mentioned Daryl's strong connection to Beth, and after Origins, it seemed to be hammering her in as a very important connection to Daryl, but then he was like, confused? And sort of off-handedly changed his answer to Dog. I really thought he was just kind of saying stuff he thought ppl would want to hear, answers he had canned in the back of his mind. I also wondered if he would have said Beth, but he already mentioned Beth once, and he didn't want to mention her again.

In terms of the "be careful" remark, I didn't get that it was directed toward anyone in particular. It's interesting if it's coming from Nicotero though, because idk I just feel like he's a little unpredictable in terms of what he is willing to give away or hint toward, while Gimple is VERY buttoned down, playing cards very close to his vest. I don't know if the "be careful" is meant more like, "Be careful not to give anything away," or "Be careful not to hurt our feelings too much" lol. Anyway, Seth jumps in w his answer about Eugene and FG and I don't think anyone else really answers.

So the biggest take-away for me was really Norman's disposition, which felt very hands-off. You may be right that he was expecting more questions about the spin-off, but there were exactly ZERO. And this has reminded me that really there was zero information about Daryl's spin-off, and I'm sure much of that was not to take away from the Rick reveal, and also to protect Melissa and her choice. I doubt she wanted to talk about it. It's possible a moratorium was placed on the subject and interviewers were not even allowed to ask. So yeah, idk? It was really insightful and interesting in any case.

Oh also, per Kang's answer to the question about the ending: I thought it was interesting how she comments on the fact that there are parts of the story that continue beyond what we see on-screen. I don't know if it's meant to hint at any one thing specifically, because it's just a good rule of thumb with writing, ie: when you're writing a story, it's important to remember that where you enter the story is not the beginning, and where you exit the story is not the end. I always learned about writing stories as an answer to the question: "Into what life have we come?" Stories imply entire lives and entire universes and contexts, especially one as big as TWD. So yeah, idk, just implication that we don't have all the information.

@twdmusicboxmystery:

Definitely suspicious, though. I'm super excited for all the shows (including Tales) to start up. Can't wait to see what goodness they bring us!

Btw, I agree about them maybe putting a moratorium on talk of the Daryl spinoff after what happened when it was announced. I hadn't thought of that, but that makes perfect sense. Especially if Melissa was at Comicon (she was, wasn't she?) then they would have wanted to protect her. Good for them. And I'm sure more news about the Daryl spinoff will surface as we get closer to it's release. Again, can't wait!

@galadrieljones:

Melissa was not at the press conference but she was on the main panel I believe! And I agree we’ll probably hear more as the Richonne euphoria dies down. I also am weirdly viewing no news as good news on the Daryl spin-off, because it keeps affirming our suspicions that perhaps the premise would be too spoilery for 11c, and they have to wait for more to develop within the flagship before they can meaningfully start promoting Daryl’s spin-off without spoilers…

@wdway:

I enjoyed reading your impressions of the press conference and agree with all of them. I don't know if you have had a chance to watch the full panel but there were a couple of things that you pointed out that in hindsight of the larger panel now seem a bit a coincidence and to much of a coincidence to really be one.

You pointed out that Gimple, Seth and other spent some time bringing attention to the episode from s5 WHWGO with some saying it might have been one of the best episodes in the series. A stretch in my opinion considering most people found it hard to understand because it was so full of hints and clues to future storyline. It was also the last time we would physically (not a portrait) see Beth until s9 when she was included in the characters death scene of Rick's hallucination. (Funny how Beth was in both episodes as a hallucination.)

In thinking about the attention they were bring to WHWGO made me think of the full panel when Gimple mentioned (without naming the episode) the last episode of s4. Gimple mentioned that he and AK co-wrote the episode. I believe it was AK who said that the scene at the car between Daryl and Rick was one of her favorites and Gimple agreed. They pointed out that this was the scene in which Rick called Daryl his brother.

The coincidence that I was noticing between the two panels was that Gimple and AK were drawing attention back to s4 and s5 and that in both episodes Beth was the common denominator. In WHWGO she drove Ty into the next world and in "A" Daryl spoke of her just being "gone" just minutes before Rick called him brother. Not really sure of the point I'm trying to make other than I don't think these seemingly offhanded remarks about past episodes are off-handed at all, I think they were thought out and well planned to begin attention to s4 and s5. My question would be but for what purpose?

Another mention from Seth that I'm side eyeing was when he said that he wish that FG's and Rosita relationship could have started sooner in the storyline. Now I will say that I really do like these characters together and I know that there are many who don't feel that they are a good match but I personally enjoy them together.

I have to say that it struck me as a bit odd that he brought this up. But it also allowed a couple of things to be cleared up going into 11c. There has been a question of if FG and Rosita was still a couple and I feel that this statement indicates that they are. It also brought attention to a relationship that most people was caught off guard about and didn't see coming. It also shows a relationship of two characters with a age gap. Recently I saw a list of TWD actors and their ages. Seth is like 22,23 years older than the actress that plays Rosita. It truly might just be a coincidence that they brought attention to this relationship but I just find it a bit odd that it was put out now with s11C so near.

@galadrieljones:

This is very interesting, that they mentioned “A?” I feel with so much this past season and even beyond in 10c they have been making callbacks to seasons 4-5. I will never forget how hard I laughed when in “One More,” Aaron and FG are playing poker and I think it’s FG who wins on a bluff with an 8 and a 2 in his hand.

We also still have zero true explanation for why Leah just randomly has Beth’s hair for several episodes. As for why they’re drawing us back to seasons 4-5, I don’t know why ofc but to me that’s the original D.C. al Coda, the beginning of the end, and especially per “A,” the place where all lines converge. Ofc my dream is for there to be an episode called “B,” which will answer all of our burning questions and finally set things straight but I think that’s probably wishful thinking at this point I haven’t had the chance yet to watch the panel but I will soon.

My hopes for a “B” episode ramped up after the season 10 episode “We are the End of the World” when Alpha says to Beta in a flashback, “Where there’s an A, there must always be a B.” I was like, “OMG THANK YOU I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS!!” lol

@frangipanilove:

I really liked your thoughts here. I haven’t thought about WHAWGO in a while, and I liked how you said that Beth drove Tyreese into the next world. I feel like you put into words how I see the three/tree/trunk symbolism and the “red controls the gates” symbolism complimenting each other.

I keep saying that Beth is a “controller of gates”, based off how she untied Daryl’s red rag in Still and opened the trunk (gate) allowing the, both to climb out. And really, how you described it fits nicely with that particular symbolism, that she was the one who escorted Tyreese into the afterlife, in a car/vehicle/vessel/trunk. I really really loved the way you worded it. That’s why I feel she’s a “controller of gates”, she’s literally behind the wheel and making decisions on when and where to enter the underworld, and when and where to return to the realm of the living, if that makes sense. She “acts”, she’s not “acted upon”. Subject, not object. She has agency and a certain symbolical “skill set” that allows her to “control the gates”.

I love the idea of an episode “B”. Please make that happen, TV gods!

@galadrieljones:

I also loved your choice of words there @wdway: that Beth drove Tyreese into the next world. And frangi that’s a really interesting point, that Beth has “agency,” she is driving the car. I sort of wonder if this could be explained by her being in a sort of “limbo” at this point. Like if she’s in a coma, after being shot, somewhere between worlds, she is the only one who can steer the ferry into the underworld for Tyreese, as she can pass between both worlds, since she’s neither living nor dead. That’s actually super thought provoking and helps me to think about that scene and why she is driving the car.

@frangipanilove:

Yeah, I definitely see her as currently residing in that liminal space between the realms, to use the symbolical language. Not literally, because I assume she lives and thrives in some distant part of TWDU, but as far as Daryl and TF, and also the GA, is concerned, she’s dead. Which effectively lands her “in between” being alive and dead. Not literally, but on a symbolical level.

I think a lot of what we saw with Leah in FM was a reflection of how they are both characters that have the skills to “move between worlds” if that makes sense. They both have the capacity to “control the gates”, which we saw being set up for Beth with that scene from Still. Well, Leah ultimately died, and Beth will ultimately show up alive, because they're sort if inverted versions of each other. And I really loved Ann’s choice of words above, because being behind the wheel is such a powerful metaphor for being assertive about your life and wellbeing, and I’m not sure I’ve ever thought about that scene in that way before. Sheer brilliance!

@wdway:

I was actually thinking about how the title of s6e10 The Next World fit with Ty representing leaving the old world behind and going into the next realm just as the series was leaving behind the world they had built after the fall. S6e10 The Next World was when Daryl and Rick met Jesus who showed them a whole new world that they didn't know was there. I think in someway Beth will play a part in driving TF or at least Daryl into the next world of the CRM.

@galadrieljones:

This is all really great. Makes me think of how it was essentially Virgil who ferried Michonne into the “next world” per her adventure, and his name, Virgil, even communicates that the writers are thinking about this very metaphor. It’s the poet Virgil who ferries Dante into the Underworld in the Inferno section of a Divine Comedy. Similarly, in 6.10, Jesus shepherds the ppl of Alexandria into the new world.

(Or the “new age” perhaps)

Aaron Is another shepherd or guide, leading TF to a new world, and his name is meaningful as well. Aaron was Moses’s spokesman who was instrumental in guiding the Israelites out of Egypt.

@wdway:

I really only realize after reading comments from you that Beth driving the car in Ty's hallucination possibly had more symbolic meaning then we originally thought.

This reminded me of some shots I took from s5e2 Strangers, that I've been meaning to show/remind you guys about that tptb were given us hints of a male/female Moses type leaders.

I feel the orange clothed child represents Rick and the one in pink represents Beth.

These are not anything we haven't discussed many times in the past but it is a good reminder of what they were showing us in the episode and how it might relate to the story now. The bathroom sign that we see to the left corner of the bottom picture shows us a female and male. At the same time we're looking at Glenn and Michonne an example of male and female. The sign of Amazing Grace that includes an anchor cross, waves and water in the same frame as male/female.

@galadrieljones:

Yes I remember those drawings, but I never thought of them as being male/female. That’s brilliant. Since so much of the show is guided by dualities, it makes sense that the male/female duality would be central, since it’s so essentially human. Walkers do not seem to have genders. They are mere expressions of death, so male/female duality seems defining in separating us from the walking dead.

This actually brings me back all the way to Days Gone By, the very first conversation that Rick and Shane have in the police car. It has always eluded me a little bit, because it feels SUPER IMPORTANT, but it’s so heavy, and so symbolic, I think I just haven’t really dedicated the time to trying to understand where it leads.

Rick starts the conversation by asking, “What’s the difference between men and women?” The scene is meant to establish the differences between Rick and Shane. It’s especially meant to establish Shane as this kind of brute, whereas Rick is more thoughtful. Some might even perceive him as weak here, or sensitive.

And Darabont is framing these differences between them within the construct of women. So the entire show begins with this extreme question about the difference between men and women. This ultimate duality.

Daryl and Beth will later sort of encompass this duality really beautifully in an Eden allegory, and then a marriage allegory. Daryl is hard and stoic and sad, focused on the big picture of survival, while Beth provides her “feminine touch” in his life, teaching him how to live, how to appreciate beauty, what it means to care about ppl even tho that means you could get terribly hurt.

And ofc there’s the duality of Rick/Beth as being “sheriffs,” and all the other tons of dual symbolism that connects Rick and Beth through 5a. I don’t have a grand point here or anything lol, just wanted to provide more support to the theory that the male/female duality is important to the show, and also I just really like the idea of Beth being this balancing feminine force whose loss sends TF wandering aimlessly through the desert, and turns Rick into a kind of monster.

@wdway:

I really love how you explained it above. I also just want to remind everyone that the same male/female sign that is shown above was also in Beth's hospital room. Again this is nothing new, we keep going back to these reoccurring symbols in our reviews. As Daryl would say, the signs are all there and may I add that they have been there for a very long time.

@twdmusicboxmystery:

Love all of this conversation!

What I thought of when reading the male/female stuff is that this is really why they're using Judith so heavily as a Beth proxy right now. It's always a little weird to try and explain because obviously Daryl and Judith aren't romantic (that would be creepy and weird). But they're still using her as a proxy. It's just because of the male/female dynamic and she's the current "sheriff" character with both Rick and Beth offscreen.

You could even apply this argument to Sophia. I don't think anyone ever even suggested anything weird about Daryl and Sophia, but in the reverse, people try to say he loved Beth like a daughter or sister because that's how he felt about Sophia, and there are so many ties between her and Beth.

We've always said it's because it's the "lost girl" theme, and romance doesn't factor into that theme. It can be romantic or platonic. That's still true and I think what you've pointed out here just backs it up more. Even with the Glenn/Michonne example. They're represent the male/female dynamic, as you said above, but that doesn't automatically make them a romantic couple.

When Carol killed Karen and David and Ty found them in S4, they were also a male and female, but not romantic together. Beth and Daryl on the other hand, obviously are. And of could the male/female dynamic can be seen in all the soulmate couples. So yeah. Totally agree. Love it!

Phew! That was a quite a few thoughts sparked from the press release. But what can we say? We're TWD geeks!

Any thoughts on our thoughts? Which is your favorite? Xoxo! 🔥😎 💘

#beth greene #beth greene lives #beth is alive #beth is coming #td theory #td theories #team delusional #team defiance #beth is almost here #bethyl

12 notes · View notes